Test Pilot Watched a 300-Foot Black Triangle Blot Out the Stars Over Edwards | Dan Isbell Part 2

Stars winking out in the shape of a giant triangle. A beam of light that found him alone at his hot tub, with no source in sight. A sphere of plasma that stopped behind his house. And a veteran journalist’s warning: they’re tracking you.

In this part two of a two-part series, and the conclusion of Dan Isbell’s story. 

Dan Isbell flew the F-111 on Cold War nuclear alert, graduated first in his Air Force Test Pilot School class, flew more than 70 types of aircraft, and later taught test pilots at Edwards before a career in directed-energy weapons. In part one, he described the silent triangular craft he saw near a NATO base in England in 1980 and kept to himself for 43 years. In part two, he walks through the three encounters that followed, spread across 35 years and three states, none of them from an aircraft.

I sit down with Dan to hear all of it: a roughly 300-foot black triangle that blotted out the stars over a classified range at Edwards in 1990, moving so slowly it unnerved him; a defocused beam of blue-green light that surrounded him at his Florida hot tub in 2014, its source expanding in discrete steps into a white sphere before accelerating out of sight in under half a second; and a silent plasma sphere that moved down a retention pond and stopped behind his Tampa-area home in 2016. He also describes sitting across a table from journalist George Knapp and filmmaker Jeremy Corbell, and the four words Knapp said to him that he could not shake.

Dan does not claim to know what any of it was. He says he ruled out the prosaic explanations he could, and as an engineer he has spent decades theorizing about propulsion, optical stealth, and the physics that might make such objects possible, wherever those theories lead. Whether these were unacknowledged programs, a natural phenomenon, or something genuinely outside our science, his account returns to the question this show keeps asking: how many credentialed observers have stayed silent for fear of their careers, and what would we understand about our own skies if they felt safe to speak?

Missed part one? Watch it here: https://youtu.be/MJHO8iB6tDw

Learn more, become a member, and support our work at: https://www.safeaerospace.org

Please like, subscribe, and share this episode to help us continue producing independent aviation-safety research and conversations.

What is Safe Aerospace Podcast?

What are pilots really seeing in our skies, and why aren't we talking about it?

The Safe Aerospace Podcast brings together military aviators, commercial pilots, air traffic controllers, aerospace professionals, and policymakers to tackle one of aviation's most pressing and least discussed challenges: UAP (unidentified aerial phenomena) in controlled airspace.

Hosted by Former F/A-18 pilot, Ryan Graves from Americans for Safe Aerospace, the podcast goes beyond the headlines to explore what UAP encounters mean for flight safety, national security, and the future of airspace transparency. Each episode features firsthand accounts from credentialed professionals, analysis of emerging policy developments, and conversations with the researchers and lawmakers working to bring scientific rigor and institutional accountability to a long-stigmatized issue. The Safe Aerospace Podcast is produced by SafeAero Media.

They started winking out
in the shape of a huge triangle,

and it was just blackness.

The thing had no color to it,
no lights, just it blanked out

all the stars as it went over

me, and I didn't know if I

maybe felt a little
electrostatic energy from it,

or it was just chill bumps
because this thing was massive.

Oh, how big was it
in your field of view?

If I put a number on it,
I would say maybe.

Maybe it was 300ft wide.

So 1980. Now jump to 1990.

And I'm an instructor
at the test pilot school

and also had a pretty fast
motorcycle that I liked to go

right out in the evening.

And I would write out
there was a road that

went toward the south based
gate this one particular night.

I'm just watching this beautiful

canopy of stars
over me in from behind me.

They started winking out
in the shape of a huge triangle.

Very sharp corner on the front.

Just quietly moved
on, didn't accelerate,

did nothing,
but it was going so slow.

It was shocking.

And I did have a chance
to go talk to George Knapp.

And when it got to that third
one, George Knapp, who sitting

kind of at the end of the table
and Jeremy's here beside me.

And after that third event
that I just described,

George Knapp
leaned in across the table

and looked me eyeball
to eyeball. And he said.

Welcome back to the

Safe Aerospace Podcast and part
two with my two part series

with Dan Isbell, former Air
Force pilot turned test pilot.

For the first time,
we're bringing you

all the details
of the encounters

that Dan has been through
throughout his life.

The safe aerospace community
has grown rapidly

over the past couple of months
since we started this podcast.

If you want more
of this content,

please like and subscribe
to this channel.

It really helps us out.

And now on the part
two with Dan.

So 1980 now jumped in 1990.

And I'm an instructor

at the test pilot school
of one of my favorite jobs.

I would have stayed there
ten years if they would let me.

If you've ever been out there

or maybe a China
leg, probably the same thing

when you're out at night.

There's no clouds,
there's no humidity,

and you can see the Milky Way
like amazing.

It's like an astronomy
observatory.

And I also had a

pretty fast motorcycle
that I like to go

right out in the evening.

And, and I would write out
there was a road

that went toward the south base
gate.

It's a long way
down to the gate.

So it went by the

classified South base,
which is just south of regular,

and there's also a north base

that was more NASA, Dryden
and classified stuff there.

Then the main base

had had more like,
okay, not super classified,

but still maybe
some secret stuff.

And the South Base is where
we had tested the B-2 after,

and I was accidentally
caught it on video

when I was making a movie
on the very first flight.

It took off,
and then I got stopped

by the Aussie after we landed.

But anyway, the,

the right

out there, I would go out
and just look at the stars

for a little while
before I went to bed.

And this one particular night,
I'm just watching this beautiful

canopy of stars over me
and from behind me.

They started winking out
in the shape of a huge triangle.

And it was just blackness.

This thing had no color to it,
no lights, just

it blanked out all the stars
as it went over me,

and it gave me chill bumps.

And I didn't know if I

maybe felt a little
electrostatic energy from it.

Or it was just chill moms,
because this thing was massive.

I can't estimate its full size
because I don't know

exactly how high it was,
but it seemed to be pretty low.

How big was it
in your field of view?

Oh, it took one side to side
tip dip.

Oh, really?

Yeah, it was out there.
It was really, really big.

So if I put a number on it
I would say maybe,

maybe it
was 300ft wide. It was huge.

Triangular.

Yeah.

Perfectly triangular.

Very sharp corner on the front.

And here I'm on, I'm on, I'm

on the government property
of the base and the range.

And so I didn't tell anybody
about that one because

I didn't know
if that was something

we were reverse engineering

and why we would be flying it
there.

I don't know.

No sound
I assume. No sound. Yeah.

This one did not have any

like a luminescence
around the edges and all like

the one I'd experienced in the
in the UK.

So I didn't know what it was,

but I'd already got kind of
in trouble with the ozone

for one of the Friday nights
before that.

I just always coming up
with stuff in my mind,

and I'd come up with a way
to make airplanes

invisible visually,
not just illuminating radar.

And I kind of thought it

through mathematically
and how it could be done,

and I didn't think
anything about it.

But we were just, you know,

having with the students

who would usually go over
to the officer's club

a little bit and kind of blow
off steam on a Friday night.

And I was
just talking to him about it.

Theoretically,
nothing. I knew about it.

And suddenly
guys come up in suits

and they grabbed me
by the shows and said, sir,

come with miss, come with us.

And they take me off
to a private room.

And they, they said,

how do you know about this?

I said, no, about what?

And he said,
what you were talking about.

Could you just told me because.

You just said,
I don't know anything about it.

I just did something in my head

and they said,
don't ever talking about again,

because we got a program
trying to do that right now.

I said, oh, well, I didn't know.

So finally, you know,
they took that as my word

because they knew.

I'm an honorable officer
and doing good,

and I never talked to us
all about it again.

I still haven't told anybody
what I was theorizing about

because because what they said,
don't ever talk about it again.

So I certainly wouldn't
go and talk about

this thing
that came over my head,

especially
while I'm doing the favorite job

I never had teaching test pilot
students. That was so much fun.

My goal was always to make them
a better test pilot

than I ever was.

If I could achieve them,

and they could master
these flight test techniques

to perfection. That's
what gave me joy.

And so I really love teaching.

And I wasn't
about to jeopardize that job,

because if it was something
that wasn't supposed to be seen

and I

shouldn't have been out there

and I shouldn't talk about it,

that would have been
a ball of worms

I didn't want to get into.

So I already had that
experience, that.

How'd that experience ended?

It just continue to fly past
you and went out of sight.

Just quietly moved on.

Didn't
accelerate, did nothing. Just.

But it was going so slow.

It was shocking.

Again,
like the first experience.

How does it do that without
projecting anything I can hear

there's nothing there
that makes sense to me.

So there's got to be a different
propulsion system to do that.

And I don't know, you know,

I've seen some of the stuff

about tier three B's
and some of the things

they've talked about
with doing how that would work.

And I don't know
if any of that's true or not,

if it's all just stuff,
the money, the waters.

But whatever this thing was
doing was very unusual.

And again,

this was a perfect triangle
and not as small as the one

I'd seen in the UK, but
it didn't have a curved front.

It had a pointy front and
pointy ends, but it was huge.

So I just decided
I'd had enough for that night.

And I got back on my motorcycle,
went back and went to bed

and didn't tell a soul, didn't

tell my wife,
didn't tell anybody.

So that's the second one I had.

And that's really kind of the
the full story of it.

And I know other
people have had experiences

where something
just blanks out the stars.

Yeah, I've heard very similar
things as well.

Yeah, yeah.
So I can't say that that's a

an alien
craft or anything like that.

I don't know what it was.

It could have been something
we were testing

because we tested
lots of other stuff out there,

but I would have thought

if it was something
we were testing,

it would probably have been
better up at area 51.

Yeah.

So again, what was it? No idea.

But it it really was weirded
me out that wait a minute.

I've had two

fairly close encounters
with these things now. Why?

Why me?

Not everybody had it.

Or at least certainly
nobody talked about it.

If they did.

Did it go, like right
over your head or was it offset?

Literally? Yeah. Right over me.

Almost like it was intentional

because I'm
the only thing out there.

I mean,

you get far enough down
the south based South Gate Road,

and you just have
the dry lake bed and you have

some mounted desert
deserti stuff.

But the lights of the main base
are no longer

creating a visual problem
because, I mean,

you know, street

lights and runway and lights
and all that stuff.

You can't really see the sky
real good

unless you get out their ways.

So I'd always get out there ways
where

now I don't have anything.

It's just like quiet.

And that was my favorite place
to go.

Stargaze.

And I did that pretty often,
just kind of in the in the day.

I've always done that
since I was a child.

Just real quick.

I mean, the object size
that you're talking about.

I mean, you wouldn't even
be able to put that in a hangar.

No. Right. No.

So a one test object,
I mean, one of my hypothesize

that it was an inflatable

in some way,
right, with a rigid structure,

with some almost Vantablack

type capability, where it's
just absorbing as much light

as as physically possible
in order to avoid reflections.

Right.

Because even on even on
a starlight provides

more than enough light
against a normal object

to typically be able to at least
pick out the skin of it.

You know,

coming in the land
at a carrier in the,

you know,
the middle of the ocean,

you know, if you got starlight,
that's a bright night.

But if there's an overcast layer
at 8000ft or something,

it can be like having your eyes
closed out there.

Yeah. For sure.

So, I mean, you'd need,
you know,

it can't just be a normal black
object.

It would have to really be
absorbing as much as possible.

Or. Or

it would be utilizing some

what I call
optical stealth technology.

And maybe, you know, there's
two ways of thinking about that.

Maybe it

does, you know, operates
in a way that you just described

where you
can't see what's behind it.

A lot of

optical stealth technologies,
other,

other ways of implementing that,
that I could imagine

would basically still allow you
to see what's behind the craft.

Right?

You'd basically be,

you know,

almost piping the light
from behind it

and ejecting it out
the front in some way. Right.

So you would still see
like stars going,

you know,
see the stars behind it.

If this was a human technology,
it would.

Either
have some kind of massive,

massive hangar system to store
or it was inflatable using

some type of Vanth,

the black style
or optical stealth technology.

And on top of all that,
you know, potentially

some type of propulsion system
that doesn't any any audio.

So I don't know.

It's all

no answers there, obviously,
but just kind of trying

to describe the scope
of why that's so weird.

Yeah, it was weird.

It definitely gave me
chill bumps

because that was so large,
you know, and like.

Chill bumps or was it, you know,

some kind of electrostatic
field.

Could have been electrostatic
field.

See, I don't know which because
I just know I was tingly.

My my arms felt tingly.

And that kind of encouraged me
to get on my motorcycle and get

out of there,

just go away.

Because it was

another one of those things
that I didn't want to get caught

seeing it, and I didn't want
anybody to know about it

for all the reasons
we've talked about.

You got one more, don't you?

I actually have two. Two more.

So snap forward
now, this time to about 2014.

I'm living in Silver Springs,

Florida,

so now I'm across the country

and I've got this amazingly
secluded property where it's

like quiet because it's so far
away from any kind of lights.

I'm by the Ocala National Forest
and the river

and out to the back
of our place, we had a hot tub

that we liked to go to
that was in a very light,

quiet place
and had an open view of the sky.

And in November,

me and
my wife, November in Florida.

Sometimes you have just

amazingly clear nights
in a place like that,

and you could see the Milky Way
again.

And I used to just sit
like lounge back in the hot tub

and enjoy

looking at the stars, seeing
how many satellites I could see

because they're very detectable
and they're very predictable

and had seen nothing
all that time.

My wife

finally she was getting
a little shriveled

on my go in and shower off
and get in the bed.

I said, okay,

I think I'm gonna stay out
a little bit longer

because this is
the perfect night.

I'm just enjoying stargazing.

So she went in, I stayed out,
and I still didn't see anything

except an occasional satellite,
maybe a

shooting star here or there.

And then I decided,
okay, I'm getting shriveled.

So I got out of the hot tub
and grabbed my towel.

And about the time I'm

telling off, standing
right by the hot tub,

I'm surrounded

and a perfectly circular
beam of a color.

I would say it's like cyan,
but it wasn't fully blended.

It was a little speckling,

but it was a bluish greenish
light, a beam.

And at first I'm thinking, is
there somebody out here on this?

Just a nice property that's like
trying to pull a prank on me.

And so I look around
horizontally and there's

nothing anywhere.

There's no sound,
there's nothing.

And then I start looking
at this thing.

It's encompassing me
in the hot tub.

It's reflecting off these white
base rocks we had there onto.

We had a shed right there,

but otherwise it's

like very concentrated.

And so I realized, well, it's
almost perfectly circular.

So it's got to be
coming from above.

And then when I look up,
I'm looking

right up the beam
and it comes to a point.

But because it wasn't too bright
to hurt my eyes, but it was,

I couldn't really
tell anything about the craft,

but it was something up above me
that had just illuminated me

was no sound.

Again, it wasn't a helicopter,

wasn't like a helicopter
searchlight.

That would have really been
blinding.

Yeah,
it was like a defocus laser.

If you've ever worked
with lasers

and you don't have to defocus
the beam, it will.

It won't stay a narrow beam,
it'll it'll spread out.

And you can do that optically.

And you can size it to be
whatever you want it to be.

Right?

Because when you defocus it,
you can spread the energy around

it, still collimated,
but through optics

you can defocus it.

So it kind of reminded me
of like a defocus laser, but

it was not a laser
like I and ever worked with.

And again,

that's I'm doing that job
at this point,

you know, and teaching about it.

But so that's probably why
that came to mind

is I'm talking directed energy
weapons, high power microwaves,

high energy lasers.

But when I had the conscious
thought looking up the beam,

I had a conscious
thought. That's a craft.

Instantly the beam went

out and in place of it,
this thing just like, exploded

into a
a ball of white sphere of light.

Like the light
was originating from.

Yeah, it just like whatever

it was, was encompassed
by this thing.

It was pretty large.

And then in quantum steps.

So it didn't like
gradually increased.

It went from one to the next
and then the next.

Discrete
discrete quantum intervals.

That thing looked like
it went to twice

its size as a sphere.

And then moments later
it did another quantum leap

to four times the size.

And when it did that it was huge

sphere of this
whatever this was.

And you could see the thing
start to move.

The whole thing of light
seemed like it started to move,

but it was accelerating
extremely fast

and in less than half a second
had just disappeared.

Moving toward the west.

It didn't leave a trail.

It did traverse. Though, right?

Like you could tell it.

He could tell
that initial start of movement,

that acceleration.

So I saw it
start accelerating very quickly.

And then it just blinked out.

It just went.

And I stood there
and absolute shock

and thinking, oh, my wife's
going to be sorry she wasn't.

She went into early to see this.

I have a feeling it was waiting
for her to go inside.

Maybe it was because
there was something about it.

You know, this fact
that my consciousness.

Because I didn't say anything
out loud, my consciousness said,

that's a craft.

And as soon as it soon as I did
that, it took off the beam

that was on me.

And then it
let me see it energized.

I would say those are quantum

energy leaps that then caused it
to just accelerate so fast.

There was no watching it
move away, going faster.

It was almost instantaneous.

I only had that

little bit of a brief window
to see the direction.

It was starting to move in
before it just.

Was out. Yeah.
It was like it just turned off.

How do you I mean, how

how do you technically interpret
that expansion of that light?

Was it was it a light or did it
more appear like a field?

It was a field, like.

A. Plasma. Field
similar to the other.

Yeah. This wasn't this wasn't

it looked like a ball of plasma,

but it wasn't
ionized in the air.

For whatever reason, I wouldn't
seen any color whatsoever.

It was pure white.

When this thing turned
into this sphere of light,

it wasn't a bright light.

I was just aware
that it was this white thing.

But it also didn't
look like a ball.

It had no movement.

It had energy, like energetic.

Okay.

Oh, almost like what

a like a ball lightning kind of
would look like where it it.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

So it wasn't like a solid object
at that point.

It kind of had
fuzzy edges to it.

You could tell it wasn't
just like a, a two dimensional

silhouette of like
a beam of light that got bigger.

You interpret it as like a three

dimensional field around
whatever.

There was no light

hitting the ground at that point
because I looked down as well.

And now the thing
that had encircled me,

you know,
and that beam went out.

This wasn't lighting up
anything.

I wouldn't get any reflections
off the rocks or nothing.

It was just there.

I don't know how high it was.

It was certainly above the

there

was some
really large, maybe 400 year old

live oak trees
that were in not too far away

from there,
but this open patch of sky,

it had just parked in there

almost perfectly over the top
of the hot tub at that point.

Never was aware of it
when it came in.

Whatever.
When it came in, it must.

It might have been there
for a little while,

and I just wasn't aware of it
because it picked the time

when I'm out of the tub
and in my bath towel

with my bathing suit on to

just light me up. And.

And so there seemed to me
to be a purposeful thing.

And I did have a chance
to go talk

to George Knapp and and,

Corbell.

Corbell.

Actually, Jeremy Corbell knows

my youngest stepson
is a professional musician.

He performs all over the world.

And he also does write scores
for Hollywood movies.

So I don't know which element of
that was why he was in LA.

And and I don't know
if Jeremy was his friend

because of his lack

in his music or like,
and some of his movie work.

But he and Jeremy
Corbell were talking one day

and Jeremy says, hey,

by the way, have you ever seen
anything strange in this guy?

And he says, no, I haven't,
but I think my stepdad has.

He said, really?

What? And he said, I don't know.

He won't talk about it,
just that he's seeing things.

And Jeremy said, well, our

he think he'd come out here
to LA

and talk to me and George Knapp

and he said, I don't know,
let me call him.

So he called me up and he said,

do you want to come
out here and talk to them?

And this was sometime after

you and I had talked,
so I agreed to do so.

But when I talked to him,
I said, look, I'm not ready

to be on your weaponized show

or anything like that
at this point

because I'm still teaching
this, this stuff, but

I'm willing to share with you
all I've got to share.

And when it got to
that third one,

George Knapp, who's sitting
kind of at the end of the table

and Jeremy's here beside me,
and they invited my stepson

to be there to.

And his eyes
were as big a saucer,

and he was drowning some whiskey
because I was like,

weird to hear these stories
from me for the first time.

But it was a good bonding moment
for us after that,

after that third event
that I just described,

George Knapp
leaned in across the table

and looked me
eyeball to eyeball, and he said,

they're tracking you.

That freaked me out.

I never had thought of that,

but it kind of made sense
that maybe, you know,

maybe they are,
maybe whatever it is.

Or maybe George,
he looks serious

as a heart attack
because he hadn't said much.

They were just taking it in
and taking some notes.

At that point,

I kind of stunned me,
and I didn't even tell them

about the fourth encounter
I had had,

which happened after
we moved to where we are now.

But yeah,
that we kind of wrapped it up.

It was late at night
when we had this, this thing,

and then since
we were in California.

Anyway, I took my wife up.

She she was born,

not born,
and she was born in actually

Dayton, Ohio, but
she was raised in Sacramento.

And she wanted to go back
and see the

the redwood forest up there
in the National Redwood

National Park on the northern
coast of California.

That was one of her
favorite forest hiking.

And so we took another flight
up to San Francisco,

got a rental car
and did all that.

For a while we were out there,

but we originally just went into
LA because

Jeremy requested I do so,
and they they were good about

they didn't tell about anything
I told them.

And of course my stuff at that
point wasn't very recent.

So it's not like,

you know,

it's it's just current
as some of the things

that they've been hearing.

But I thought it was good
since they asked to tell them

about it.

And I never had any more contact

with them after that
because, again,

they're so far
beyond anything like that,

you know,
these kind of encounters.

So the do you
want to hear about the last one?

The fourth one. Absolutely.

So we bought a brand new house
that was being built.

As we bought the lot.

They were expanding
in the subdivision.

What year is this was
we got the house in 2016

and sometime in that year.

So now

we've gone from 2014 to 2016
and I've just

changed locations again.

So I've moved to the North
Tampa Bay area

from Silver Springs,

and I'm looking at the back
lanai.

We had sliding glass doors

looking out
the back of the night,

because there was a retention

pond that made a huge sea
around this set of woods

and this beautiful woods
to look at from our backyard.

And we didn't have
a very deep backyard

because of the banks
and the retention pond.

And of course, you know,
retention ponds are pretty

necessary thing in Florida.

And it had some
water in it at this point

because
it was, you know, wintertime.

It was a

I think around

March of 2016

and I just haven't gone
to bed yet.

So I'm just looking at

and kind of admiring the view
best I could see it.

You know, it's kind of dark.

And what caught my eye,
was there something

that was this white,
luminous thing

that came out
of the northwest sky

on an angle directly down
toward the retention pond,

and I thought
the thing was going to

whatever was going to smash
right in the retention pond.

But it didn't, as it came
screeching down from above,

it just stopped above
the retention pond

and then kind of started moving
pretty quickly down

the retention
pond, made the curve

slowed down, slowed
down, slowed down, and stopped

right behind my house right
where I'm.

And I'm looking at it.

I'm on the other
side of the sliding glass doors.

I've got them open,
but I'm just looking at it

and it's just stopped there

and it was probably ten feet.

Sphere. That's about like that.

It could have been less
five feet,

I would estimate, just based on
knowing if it was over

the center of the retention
pond.

It's probably 70ft away.

But I felt
really spooked by this

because it was just
like a ball of plasma.

I never seen that. Exactly.

Except the thing that turned
into plasma before and off

was that at one point
before it had enough energy to,

to really move away.

So I, I kind of connected
back to that incident.

But I didn't take time to see
how this thing got out of there.

All I did was closed
the door, draw

the blinds, step back
into my living room and say,

I hope it doesn't come in here,

because it kind of
freaked me out.

Yeah. I, I.

Didn't. Know how to think it.

Well, yeah.

And then so when George and said
that they're tracking you,

that hit me. That one.

I dare not even tell them

about this incident,
because maybe they are.

That's kind
of freaky. I don't like that.

Understandable.

Yeah, well.

But yeah, that.

Was a white light
the whole time.

Yep. Reflecting on the water,
perhaps.

I don't know if you could see it
with the burn but.

Didn't didn't see a reflection.

It was just
it was white in color.

It was in shape and it was
making no sound whatsoever.

And when that's truly a UAP,
right?

It's an anomalous phenomenon
and no idea what it is.

But ball lightning doesn't
travel like that and stop

at a point and and just kind of
almost like it was intentional.

Yeah.

But I

mean, there weren't many houses
built yet beyond where we were.

They were they were in process
of building a lot of those. So

there wasn't a lot of the

the neighborhood
that later got built in place.

So it was kind of
just quiet thing.

But of all things,
it didn't stop.

And my neighbor to my left,
who was already built

and occupied,
didn't stop anywhere else.

Stop right there.

So yeah,
I don't have any more insight

than anybody else about what
this is exactly,

but there's no doubt in my mind

that something

is interacting with us,

whether it's ultra terrestrial
and been here

for millions of years,
and it's just now showing itself

something that's concerned about
us developing nuclear weapons

because we could
destroy the whole place.

And if they're living here
in mountains under the oceans,

I've been very intrigued.

I about the ocean thing,
you know,

because it seems like
there's like 6 or 7 hotspots,

that where
they see the most things.

And if you think of it,
if you were,

if you're trying to

kind of hide out and you wanted
to be shielded from

things like a micro
nova from our sun or

a lot of other events
that might kind of really

be destructive.

I'm being under
the ocean makes a lot of sense

if you have the technology
to make that survivable place.

So I don't,
I don't know, there's

there's a lot of theories now,
but it is kind of like, well,

why are there these 6 or 7 spots
that seem to be hot spots

for us,

and the fact that they

can come up out of the ocean
and not drip and,

you know, leave water coming off

like a physical object,
but just come out.

And now they can do airborne,
they can do spaceborne.

So they have
this kind of intermedium

capability to go trans
medium from one to another.

And I know that

I know you work with Tim

Allen bet Rear Admiral

I listened to some of his stuff
and I've been reading his book,

which is excellent.

So well written
and such a career that guys had.

And I know he's,

he's on your board
and but I've, I've really paid

a lot of attention
to what he's had to say to you,

because he's really becoming
more open

about a lot of stuff
that he knew about.

And I find it fascinating
because it's,

it's a kind of thing
that you can't pinpoint.

I mean, back in the day,

like in the 40s and 50s, it's
all about flying saucers.

We don't hear very much
about that shape anymore.

So what does that mean? And

and is it capable of something?

Is that a technology
that kind of like a, let's say

they have technology
that they can form this stuff

almost like they grow it
from a single crystal and they

and they can do the out

if they can do alchemy
to the point that they can

transmute these materials

and it just grows the craft of,
for whatever purpose.

Maybe a single purpose.
Yeah, yeah.

Maybe a single purpose.

Maybe that's why we see
different kinds and shapes.

But what is it?

Why is it I don't know, it's

the biggest mystery,
I think, of our age right now.

And that's why I'm very much
at this point behind

getting the word out publicly.

There are lots of other pilots
that I know have had encounters.

I mean, I don't know,
but I'm just in my sense,

the must have had

none of my encounters were
in airplanes, which is weird.

But then again,
we're doing a lot of night

flying
just on the TFR and stuff,

and the F-111
even had radiation shields

you could put up in the front
and side.

Curtains come down,
and you wore one eye patch

in case you got nuclear
blinded in spite of all that.

Oh, wow.

So you could save one.

I mean, these were

these were probably one way
missions because

where are you going to come back
to if the if the whole blew.

Up just matter of time
at that point.

So it was horrifying thing
to think of.

But, you know,
it was the job that I was,

I found myself in, I didn't know
before I went to NATO that

that was going
to be part of the mission.

But it makes sense.

That's what the airplane
was optimized to do.

We kind of already

answered this, but I mean, do
you think you were singled out?

I have no idea.

There's been no you know, I
don't have telepathic memories.

To my knowledge.

I don't have any implants.

To my knowledge,

I've never been taken,
have not been an experiencer.

That's that's actually
been taken aboard a ship.

It sounds like
you've had a lot of good ideas.

Well, I've had a lot of years
to think about it,

and I've got a lot of,

engineering and advanced
education after that.

Master of science,
this, master of science that.

So it's it's
something that just this way

my mind works is always wanting
to analyze this stuff.

I would love to know
my curiosity is insane about it

now. So I've got I subscribed
to so many UAP type channels,

just looking for nibbles
of information to come out

and trying to assess
what's credible and what's not,

but it's

it's an

interesting time to live in when
we're not completely encased

in the stigma zone. Yeah.

Although there's
still some of that.

There certainly is

especially I mean, for people
that are still active

duty, are still actively flying.
Right.

The the risk reward
ratio is still very skewed

to the reverse side, of course.

Yeah.

But that was going to be,
you know,

perhaps
one of my parting questions

here is just kind of

your interpretation of how
things have been evolving.

And if you have anything to say

to pilots that are flying now
about what, why or,

or to help them
motivate them to come forward.

Yeah, I, I do want to say
to the pilots that are listening

and probably

that there'd be a large share
of the audience that watches

your show for the very nature
of what it is.

Americans for Safe Aerospace.

I do think it's important
that people start to come out

and if not during their active
flying, at least come out

after they've retired,
or if they've got a company

that finally is willing to allow
for this to be publicly known,

that would be wonderful.

I understand the stigma
that they would feel

about not wanting
to lose their flying career,

so we share that right.

We loved flying so much
that I wouldn't

have wanted to jeopardize that
and I so I get that.

But the

the totality of these encounters
needs to be known, because

I think there probably has been
I mean, there's

some stories of where craft
have been hit by something.

And, you know, clearly

their technology is not perfect.

I mean, whatever it is. So

there is this

potential and
we need to have better abilities

to determine
that these things are out there.

And as you had mentioned with,

when you're

actively electronically scanned,
array radar got upgraded,

suddenly you had this resolving
power that was pretty enormous.

And you're seeing these things
out in your training

training ranges on radar.

Your radar is

actually picking the stuff up,
which before wasn't.

I know that most airliners don't

have that degree of radars,
mostly for weather avoidance,

but yet there are so many pilots
that have had these

eyeball encounters with stuff
that's very anomalous.

And I'm very proud of the ones
who have shared their stories,

because this compendium of total
knowledge

helps us better understand.

And eventually I think
we need some kind of disclosure.

I mean,

if we've reverse
engineered stuff

and other adversaries
are trying to do the same,

I feel pretty much the
same about that being kept,

dark.

But the
fact that if we're not alone,

we need to know
that mankind needs to know that.

And I'm hoping we're approaching
the day, maybe even this year,

when that is revealed
at the level of

maybe the president himself
talking about it,

whether or not we ever reach
what full disclosure.

And I don't want us to go to

catastrophic disclosure
because I don't think

any insights
that we've developed,

it's like, you know, you can

you can study nuclear physics
in a college thing,

but they don't teach you how
to build a thermonuclear weapon.

And so I think things like that
are better

kept, from spreading too much.

And so if we have got
a new physics

that replaces the current
standard model physics,

I'd be excited for that.

I'm a big proponent
of the electric

universe
theories and plasma cosmology,

because
I think that as we're seeing

some of the images coming back
from our more advanced stuff

like the web and other
advanced space telescopes,

particularly the stuff
that's in the infrared,

and the near infrared,

there is so much

confirmation
that electrical currents

are doing these Birkeland
current things in the galaxies,

and that stars may be formed by
that, not some gravity collapse

thermonuclear fusion bomb
in the middle of every star.

That theory has never made
a lot of sense to me.

And now that we know,
we measured the temperature

of the photosphere of the sun,

and that's only about

5000 degrees Kelvin,
and yet they think

it's 15 million degrees
in the center of the star.

Why is it so cool
in the surface?

And then why does it go to 2
million, 3 million

degrees, several million
miles out in the corona?

That's fair.

That's a

that's a conundrum that standard
Model science doesn't explain.

And I

think that that
we live in an electric universe.

Not that that's exclusively it,
but I think that's an element

that if we look at Einstein's
theory of general relativity,

and we think about the times
when that thought experiment

occurred to him, it was a time
when the Michelson-Morley

project
had assumed that this ether

was like a gas thing.

And when that experiment failed,

they sort of said, well,
there's nothing else in space

besides gravity,
the force of gravity.

And of course, all of general
relativity is built on that,

and that the whole universe
is put together by everything

attracting or moving apart due
to gravitational fields.

It's not that gravity

doesn't exist,

but I think

there are fundamental forces
in the electromagnetic spectrum

that are like we talked before,
ten to the 39th power,

greater
than the force of gravity.

You can take a little tiny
refrigerator magnet

and have a paper clip
on your desk right here,

and it'll jump off the table.

Even though all of us gravity
is trying to pull it down.

And so that's just
the simplest illustration of it.

If we've learned how to harness
some of that to do similar,

what these craft,
if not as elegant

as these, craft,
that in my mind needs to stay

secret, that

needs to stay ultra classified.

Because imagine
if you can harness

things like zero point energy,

if zero point
energy can be harnessed,

which would kind of make sense
that if it did,

you have this infinite energy
supply to power your craft.

And it's everywhere.

It's everywhere
we go, it's inside of us.

Even this quantum field vacuum,

if that's accessible
and a meaningful way,

it makes sense that
there wouldn't be limitations

on what we could do in terms of
travel throughout the universe.

So if these are from
another place in the universe,

then why couldn't
they see the speed of light

if they if they can cancel mass?

Because then you basically
aren't restricted

by Einstein's equations
in his theories

and not general relativity,
but in special relativity

when he talks about speed
of light can't be exceeded.

Maybe that's not true.

Yeah.

I mean, there are examples
of the speed of light

being exceeded.

The expansion of the universe
is expanding

faster
than the speed of light. Right.

So there's still a lot of,
you know, our physics only

covers so much of the territory
right now.

There's I agree with you.

There's much
to to continue to uncover.

And it's always frustrating
to hear people

dismiss this conversation
because they want to stay

within
the current scientific paradigm,

which is only existed
for about 110 years or so.

Right. Another 100 years.

I think there's going to be
a lot of additional

and new physics
that are going to make

what we understand now
seem quite silly in comparison.

Yeah.

If you look back through
history,

science has always had
these hurdles that it hit.

You think about the time
when it was these fears

and the or at the center.

And that was
that was standard science.

And the sun revolves
around the Earth,

and the planets
were all around the Earth.

But then they had to invent

these equations for doing
these little micro curves

that they had to do the loops
because, you know,

they didn't track. Right.

And so the epicycles
that they put into

that were just more add

ons and bandaids
to try to keep that alive.

And it was very heretical
to say otherwise.

And so that's what the Galileo
stood up against that, you know,

and he was viewing
the moons that at least the

what they called

the Galilean moons,
the four large ones

around Jupiter,
which has on and 100 something

moons circling it.

But he was visualizing
that with a telescope, and

he had already

decided that, no, there's
not the center of anything.

We were orbiting around the sun
and not not otherwise.

And the church put him in house

arrest for the rest of his life.

And we wouldn't
have any of his stuff

because they were going
to burn it all.

But he sneaked out stuff
to the guys

that brought him
food under house arrest.

And that's the only reason
we have

some of his theories persisting.

So it's almost like
we're going through a period

now about what
standard physics is guarded and

and they keep adding Band-Aids
to it.

The first time they came up
with a black hole theory,

even Eystein said,
that's an abuse of my equations.

Relativity. Because you are,

you allow yourself
to divide by zero.

Yeah.

So you have an infinitely
small mass

or an infinitely large mass
and an infinitely small space,

this whole center
of the black hole thing.

And again,

if it is actually just
a plasmoid of energy,

electromagnetic energy,
and we can create plasmids

and in a laboratory now
and so we know what those are.

If each galaxy of the
A center has a plasmoid, it

would be dark to us

and the electromagnetic energy
would be radiating out.

And it seems to do that.

And the James Webb
telescope is showing us images

that mainstream science
can't explain.

And, and also

fully formed galaxies
way beyond this whole thing.

So when they came up with the.

Oh, it's 13.8
million billion years old.

And then the whole universe
was born of this

explosion
when there was nothing.

Another infinity inside. Right?

And then they said, oh, well,
now we got to fix that.

So now there was
we had to have expansion

because it had to
it had to move out

greater than the speed of light
initially

because it couldn't
explain things otherwise.

And then when Vera Rubin started
looking at distant galaxies

and noticing,
measuring the speed of stars

because takes a long time
to figure that out,

keep looking at the same galaxy
and came out with,

well, that's not a band.

Newton's
gravitational pull loss.

So there must be more gravity.
Yeah.

And then they invented
not only now we had black holes,

we had this explosive
expansion of the universe.

We had

another thing that they were

doing, which was to take
the infrared signature.

And assuming that's always going
to represent Doppler velocity,

it is. Consistently across
time to write.

It could be variations
in these forces.

There's more than that.

When every time that a quasar

is burped
out of the center of a galaxy,

that huge chunk of plasma
energy, the quasar

starts
orbiting its parent galaxy.

But when it comes out,
it has an inherent

signature
that's a very huge redshift.

And then as it ages
and becomes more and settled,

orbiting the galaxy

like we have, the Large
and Small

Magellanic
Clouds are just pair of them

that we know
of orbiting the Milky Way.

As those become settled out,
their redshift

eventually comes down to exactly

the galaxies redshift
that they were born from.

So there are
these inherent redshifts.

And even when Hubble
was the first to use

the spectroscopy on a telescope
to start

figuring out these shifts,
and that we had the Andromeda

Galaxy wasn't a star cluster
in our galaxy, but something

far away from
us. A couple of what is it?

2.5 million light years away

when they first started
talking about that,

we can measure the speed
of every galaxy

by just its redshift, he said.

I think that's not true.

That's just that's

a, I think a misuse of an over
categorization of the redshift.

So he had a guy
that was a partner with him

named Halton ARP

who went with that,
and he started really focusing

telescope time
and showing these quasars that

that the current theory
said, oh, well, there

they've got to be, you know,

14 million light years away.

And this galaxy is like,
you know, 4 million

light years away,
but it's in front of the galaxy,

still kind of tied to the galaxy

because
it had an inherent redshift.

And when you interpret
that always has distance.

And then when you say,
and we can look at the redshift

and say, okay, and that's
that also can tell us speed.

So we don't really know
any of that because

it depends on that assumption.

And so then when you say

well these stars
are not rotating correctly.

So there must be extra
mass, extra gravity.

So they invent a dark energy.

And what have we been like
20 something years.

And they have spent $19 billion
trying to find out of

30 different theories
of what dark energy is,

and they've never confirmed
any of it.

And yet we stick with that.

Well, if you look at
if you look at the universe

and how it would behave
if it was an electric universe,

you don't need any of that
because an electric universe,

actually, when you model
it makes galleries, galaxies

do what they do,

and the spiral arms develop
because that's

where the Brooklyn
currents are spiraling out.

So I think there's some stuff
to be studied there.

Not that that that's
perfectly sound right now, but

a kind of abandoned mainstream
science up quite a few years ago

and have been really looking
for better answers

and better fits.

So part of
why we're not making out

rapid progress
is that our current science

makes all this impossible,
which makes it impossible

to believe
it's really happening.

You can't believe your own.

Eyes and impossible to progress.

You know. Exactly.

Well, this has been
absolutely fascinating.

I really want to thank you

for being willing
to finally share these stories.

I know

it's been some time coming, even
after you came forward to us,

but I'm really happy

we could provide
you a platform for this. And,

you've been able to set

an incredible example,
I think, for others

who I'm sure no doubt

there are

probably many thousands
of other people

not like yourself who have
similar things to share,

just haven't been willing
to come forward yet. And so.

I think there are.

Yeah.

I look forward
to hearing their stories,

hopefully on your show. Well.

If you have something to report
courage

you go to Safe aerospace.org
submit a report.

We'll reach out to you.

And we'll continue
to piece this puzzle together

and not be ashamed
to look at things that don't

fit inside our current paradigm
quite yet.

Well. Again,
thank you for inviting me.

It was a pleasure to finally
meet you in person and mind meld

with you a little bit
before we started the show,

because you and I, you and I
share a similar kind of a brain,

and we have a similar
kind of background

flying fighter jets
and loving it.

So yeah, I, I was a pleasure to
to fill the brotherhood here.

So thank
you so much. Thank you. Dan.