The Guardrail Gap | David Ashcraft

What happens when no one’s asking the hard questions?
ECFA President Michael Martin talks with David Ashcraft, CEO of the Global Leadership Network, about the urgent need for accountability, care, and clear guardrails in leadership.

From the isolation many pastors and nonprofit leaders face to how transparency can rebuild trust, this episode offers practical insights and a call to action for leaders, boards, and teams alike.

Discover why vague expectations create hidden risks—and how intentional conversations and well-defined boundaries can protect leaders and strengthen organizations.

If you care about healthy leadership and culture, this episode is a must-listen.

Creators and Guests

Host

Michael Martin

President & CEO of ECFA

Guest

David Ashcraft

David Ashcraft is president and CEO of the Global Leadership Network. He is also the founder and president of The Advantage, a leadership collaborative that mentors and encourages pastors across Pennsylvania. As senior pastor of LCBC Church in Pennsylvania for 32 years, David helped grow weekly attendance from 150 people to a combined average of more than 22,000.

What is Behind the Seal?

ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?

Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.

BTS - David Ashcraft Full Episode Mix
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[00:00:00] David Ashcraft: If we truly are transparent, if we do talk about losing money, will that cause donors to say, "well, if you've been coming up that short over the last several years, why should I contribute anymore?" If we admit some of what's going on, then that's gonna just make us look bad. The exact opposite happened. We went ahead and were transparent.

You could tell it instant change in the demeanor of people that donate, um, in large ways, and it just gained trust and rebuilt trust almost instantly.

[00:00:30] Ryan Gordon: In leadership, the absence of clear guardrails isn't just careless, it's dangerous. In this episode, ECFA President Michael Martin sits down with Global Leadership Network President David Ashcraft, to explore the hidden gaps in leader care and why accountability, guardrails and honest conversations are essential for building trust and sustaining a healthy culture.

What really struck me was David's reminder that expectations are good, but without boundaries and follow through. They're just hopes when we are intentional about care and accountability, leaders can stay the course and thrive. Let's dive in.

[00:01:13] Michael Martin: Well, hey David, thanks so much for stopping by the ECFA podcast.

How are you?

[00:01:17] David Ashcraft: I'm good, Michael. Thanks for the opportunity. Looking forward to the conversation.

[00:01:20] Michael Martin: Yeah, you too. Well, right off the top, I just wanna say, so this is a Behind the SEAL podcast and obviously, uh, one of the big developments at ECFA recently is the launch of this new Leader Care standard. And you and Global Leadership Network have been just such great champions for this standard.

So wanna say thank you for that. Thank you for helping championing this new standard and also looking forward to your insights on the topic today.

[00:01:44] David Ashcraft: Yeah, well thanks so much. I mean, a critical topic and something that we. At the Global Leadership Network. I've been through some difficult times, uh, because of some of these, uh, even topics that are included in that that maybe were violated in the past around the GLN.

So we're super sensitive to it. So appreciate you working on this. I think it's a great thing.

[00:02:02] Michael Martin: Yeah, you bet. Well, hey, we're, we're all in this together, that's for sure. But, uh, I'd love to just start with that and say, you know, you see a lot too as an organization interacting with leaders of churches and ministries, you know, all across the United States, really around the world.

So, David, when it comes to leader care, what are you seeing out there in organizations today that both encourages you and, and also at the same time, um, anything that concerns you as well?

[00:02:31] David Ashcraft: Well, you know, Michael, I would say maybe start on the concern side and, um, my experience both at the Global Leadership Network, I also lead an, or an organization called The Advantage that's specifically touching pastors of the largest churches in Pennsylvania.

And we've got about 65 churches out of the top, maybe 80 churches in size in Pennsylvania that we work with, and that's about a 2-year-old organization. And we first reached out to these pastors and said, would you just meet with us for a day? To talk about how we [00:03:00] can introduce more people to Jesus. And what we found in talking to them is just an overwhelming sense of isolation on the part of so many.

And so what we realized both through the GLN and through the advantage is lots and lots of content out there about how to lead, how to lead well, content on how to take care of yourself and keep yourself out of trouble, but a lot of isolation. And so especially at, I don't know that it's especially true in larger churches.

It's probably true in all churches where. The senior pastors are just feeling lonely. Um, not a lot of people they feel like they can share with honestly. And so isolation, and I think that becomes a real concern in a lot of different areas that we can talk about further. But, um, that's probably the concern side of things that I would have.

[00:03:42] Michael Martin: Yeah. And what would you say, David? Um. Do you, do you see that actually kind of getting worse over the years, or do you feel like that's something that's just sort of always been an aspect of leadership and something that we just have to navigate?

[00:03:56] David Ashcraft: Yeah, you know, my guess is it's probably always been true, but my guess is also, I think it's been exasperated through COVID, through isolation, uh, with COVID, I.

You know what? I found Michael's pastors before COVID. We all thought we kind of knew what we were doing and we felt pretty good about our leadership. And then COVID came and just hit us in so many different ways, whether it was how to respond to COVID, whether it was the racial tensions that were going on and heightened at that time.

And so I think pastors went from feeling like, yeah, I kind of have a handle on this too. I don't have a clue what I'm doing anymore. I don't know how to keep people in my church happy anymore. And so I think it knocked down the confidence level of pastors dramatically. And so maybe before there wasn't such a strong feeling of I need other people around me.

Whereas now I think there truly is a sense that I, I'm alone and what I just want is camaraderie. I just wanna know that I'm doing the right things or that I could be doing things differently. And so I, I would guess it's probably worse now than ever. Yeah.

[00:04:56] Michael Martin: No, that makes sense. So definitely, uh, some hard times, right?

That we've, we've all experienced. But yeah, I appreciate,

[00:05:04] David Ashcraft: yeah, I was just gonna say, what's fascinated about that is, you know, you would think through social media, you'd think through the way we're even having this call. Um, you'd think that there's more opportunities to connect with people than ever, but.

I think when it comes to relationships that way, it's not so much via zoom or teleconferencing it, it truly is face-to-face, I think is what people are looking for. And so again, there's content out there galore, but the relationships are hard to come by.

[00:05:31] Michael Martin: Yeah, no, we de definitely echo that. And, uh, yeah, I was just gonna say, although obviously that's all been kind of hard for all of us to go through, I think definitely a healthy aspect of us all realizing this is a need in our lives.

Like it's something that Yeah. That, that is wired into the DNA of how God created us. So I appreciate you bringing that out. And maybe that actually gets into the, the hopeful side as well too, of just what encourages you, what are you seeing in pastors and leaders today [00:06:00] specifically around this topic of leader care that.

Uh, it feels like maybe we're headed in a good direction.

[00:06:05] David Ashcraft: Well, I think one, just calling it out Michael, is huge. Um, there's a tendency not to talk about things like that, and that only worsens the problem. It probably just drives us further into isolation. And so I think the fact that you guys are working on it, so many are working on, I think church boards are starting to sit up and realize they have some responsibility there.

And that hasn't necessarily always been the case, I don't think. And so I think, um, there's some positive steps from that regard. Yeah, no,

[00:06:32] Michael Martin: I think that's exactly right. Well, I appreciate it too, even what you mentioned here at the, the beginning of our conversation about the journey that God has had gel in through over the years and kind of even what, what you guys have seen and the trajectory that, uh, God has you on as an organization.

So I'd love to just open it up to you and let you share, uh, whatever you might want to about kind of that story and what you see God doing in that way.

[00:06:59] David Ashcraft: Yeah. Well one of the biggest things I see Michael, us really focusing on is just transparency. And I think, um, in the past for maybe the GLN, but I think for a lot of organizations, a lack of transparency has maybe contributed to some of the problems that we've faced.

Um, a lack of just acknowledging or admitting that there's been some critical errors made. And so whenever that happens, again, I think that just drives people deeper into seclusion or isolation. It just drives people deeper into not being authentic about what's going on. And so one of the things I've been in the role of president and CEO of the GLN now, just for about, I.

20 months. So I'm still fairly new to the organization. I was a part of it as being a board member for about six years. I was a part of it as a host, site partner church for about 20 years. I've attended the summit for probably 30 out of 31 years. So something that's deep involved, deeply, I've been deeply involved with.

And, uh, very aware of what's going on. And yet, um, again, one of the things we're trying to focus on now is let's just be real transparent and let's be real honest about what we see going on and what's happening and not try to hide things. And so for us, um, not so much delving into the past and maybe some of the discre, some of the indiscretions that happened in the past, but really just.

Saying moving forward, what do we need to do to be transparent? Some of that even comes down to finances. And we had been struggling financially for, um, six years since, uh, 2018 coming up. Uh, dramatically short on funding. And so there was initially a response of, oh, let's kind of pull in and protect ourselves and let's not talk about the short shortfalls.

And, um, what we found is just being real authentic with our donors, being authentic with people and saying, look, we're struggling right now. Here's where we're struggling. Here's how much we've lost over the last several years. Uh, has really, instead of. Hurting our credibility. It helped our credibility with donors and, and people that we're closely aligned with.

And so just the importance of authenticity, the importance of transparency is we're seeing in a big way. [00:09:00]

[00:09:00] Michael Martin: Yeah. No, that's all really good. I'm curious as you say that too, of coming to that place of recognizing the value and the importance of transparency. Like were there some tensions, like tension points along the way in terms of like overcoming things that might have been, uh.

A hurdle to get there. Um, any tensions along the way that you had to navigate?

[00:09:20] David Ashcraft: Oh yeah, definitely. Um, probably more internally, um, than anything else. And just the sense of whether it was staff or board worrying that if we truly are transparent, if we do talk about losing money, will that cause donors to say, well, if you've been coming up that short over the last several years, why should I contribute anymore?

And I guess my argument through the whole thing was people know we're struggling. Um, it's, they know it. And if we don't go ahead and be authentic about it, if we don't go ahead and be transparent about it, either they're gonna think that one, we're blind and we don't really see what's going on, or they're gonna feel like we're trying to cover something up.

And so, rather than hurting us, it actually, I mean, instantly, as soon as we started talking openly, you could tell it. Instant change in the demeanor of the people that, um, are heavily involved with the GLN, the people that donate, um, in large ways. It, uh, gave us instant credibility and just changed the whole demeanor of the conversation.

So yes, there were some real concerns internally of, oh no, if we, if we admit some of what's going on, that that's gonna just make us look bad, where the exact opposite happened, we went ahead and we're transparent and it just gained trust and rebuilt trust almost instantly. Yeah. Huge trust

[00:10:32] Michael Martin: builder. So you were saying, uh, 30 out of 31 years Yeah.

Being at the summit. So on a lighthearted note, I mean, what were you doing that one year that you didn't make it? I'm just kidding. You don't have to answer that. That's a good question. That's that's a pretty good track record.

[00:10:49] David Ashcraft: Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting. I, um. I, yeah, I just love being environments.

So probably the biggest thing for me, Michael, is I love being environments with other leaders and not so much for me to do talking. I love to watch and observe, and so if I could be ever in a room, whether it was small or large, where there were leaders that I respected and I wanted to learn from, I wanted to hear how they think, how they operate, how they make decisions, then I constantly, and I still do put myself in those environments.

And the funny thing is, for the first, I don't know, 15, 20 years. Uh, none of those leaders ever had a clue who I was, nor did I need them to. I, I'm fine sitting in the back of the room and just listening and observing and, um, but I feel like, uh, a lot of the mentoring of my mentors in the early days, I learned in those kind of environments and had the opportunity as time went on to get to know some of 'em and know them personally.

But for the longest time, my mentors were people that I'd never had the opportunity to meet, and I was okay with that. I was still learning from them. So.

[00:11:47] Michael Martin: Yeah, I imagine, um, I was gonna say to you, um. Having had such a long history, love for the organization involvement, the way that it helped mentor and shape [00:12:00] you.

Um, I'm also curious in these last 20 months, like what has God been teaching you about leadership? What have you been seeing kind of from a, a fresh perspective, even though again, you've had a, a very long track record. The organization?

[00:12:14] David Ashcraft: Yeah. Well, my, my full background, I, I served as a pastor to church in Pennsylvania for 32 years and I stepped out of that role not really ever expecting to step into the GLN leadership.

Um, I was gonna be working primarily with what we call the advantage here in Pennsylvania and focusing on Pennsylvania pastors. And I had been outta my senior pastor role. I still have a role at the church, but it's minor and. My wife, his name is Ruth, her name is Ruth. And uh, about three months of my being out of the senior pastor role, she sat me down.

She said, you need to find something else to lead. And then she looked at me very seriously and she said, and it's not me, meaning it's not her. And apparently I was giving more leadership and guidance around the house and what she was looking for. And she said, you know, I've done fine all of these years.

Managing the house and, and leading here at home. I don't need you here telling me what to do. And she's, she's jokingly, uh, I think seriously, but jokingly told me several weeks later, I was instructing her on how to make sure all the light switches on the wall were all either up or down in unison. And she said, that's kind of the.

The straw that broke the camel's back and said, I'm done. I don't, I don't need you here telling me how to do things. Go find something else to leave about that same time the opportunity opened up at the GLN. And so your question was, what do I see happening with the leadership now and again? It's amazing to watch how pastors are still looking for mentors.

And I think sometimes we think of a mentor as somebody that we sit down across a desk from and somehow they just open up and share wisdom with us and. I, I suppose maybe in books it can be drawn up that way, but I, I tend to think it happens more oftentimes from a distance. Um, the people that we wish would mentor us, they don't have time to sit down individually across the desk from us all the time, but they are willing to share wisdom in different settings.

And so it's just gleaning from whatever we can. And so that's, that's one aspect of mentorship. What that doesn't give is accountability relationship. And so that's a whole nother topic, but I think we can learn greatly just by sitting and listening and. And being quiet. And so I think pastors are starving for that kind of relationship.

And not even just pastors, A lot of most leaders I find still looking for that very much.

[00:14:20] Michael Martin: I. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that and we definitely will dive into the accountability side of, of leadership here in a minute and just the way that boards can also be helpful to leaders and providing care and support and all those things.

But I'll just take this opportunity, David, just to say thank you. Thank you for the leadership that you are bringing to GLN in this season. Um, like you said, the, the needs of leaders for this kind of ministry, um. It's just, it's never been more important. So thank you for your leadership. Thank you for what you're doing.

Uh, it's exciting to see the trajectory that God has GLN on, so we're excited for

[00:14:56] David Ashcraft: you. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And this is a kind of a [00:15:00] labor of love for me. I, I have benefited so greatly from the GLN in the past and just being able to be around other leaders. And so it's something that I love and.

And so it's, it's an easy thing for me to jump into and be involved in and, and appreciate it so much. Yeah. And I think there is a great future. We're just coming off of a, um, we do a pastor's conference for the pastors that host and partner with us for the summit, and we're just coming off of that and just a great, great time of, um, relationship building, comradery and, and learning.

So yes, I thoroughly enjoy doing that. That's so

[00:15:31] Michael Martin: good. Well, coming back around to, uh, to the conversation today about leader care and, um, and really the impact of trust too, which is e CFA's mission, uh, of enhancing trust. Uh, curious David, what you're seeing in terms of some of the gaps maybe that are in leader care today, not just, uh, for senior leaders, but also.

Uh, within organizations as well, and as part of kind of a leadership culture, what, what sort of gaps are you seeing?

[00:16:02] David Ashcraft: Uh, you know, Michael, I think that, um, I. So, I'll step back a minute. Um, Elmer Towns was, um, a church leader. He taught at Liberty University for years. And, um, he, back in the early days, he would always, uh, give the 10 largest growing churches.

I think he, he even had a title of Mr. Sunday School, and so he would promote Sunday school, but then he started evaluating growing churches. And each year, every five years had come out with a list of the, the 10 largest churches. And it was fascinating to see how that would continue to change. But I had opportunity to be with him probably about 35 years ago, and he had a saying, and I don't know if it was original to him or not, but he would say, you don't get what you expect.

You get what you inspect. And so we can expect things to happen, but unless we're going back and inspecting them, they probably won't happen. And. That sticks with me in a lot of different ways. As somebody that's leading a team or a staff, or even if you're leading volunteers, it's one thing to talk about what you want to happen.

It's another to make it happen. And he would say the way you make it happen is just by inspecting and saying, okay, let's really look at and let's evaluate. Is this happening or not? And I think what it comes to. Pastors and even board relationships. There's a lot of expectations that the boards have, but I don't know that we always go back and truly inspect and say, is this happening or not?

And the word inspect almost sounds like a negative. Like you're being doubted and, and I don't mean it that way, nor do I think Elmer Towns meant it that way. But if you don't ask some questions, then you don't know if your expectations are being met or not. And then the leader who's under that board.

Doesn't really know if it's important on the board side or not. So probably if you were to ask me one of the, the gaps, I think there's often not any set expectations that are actually written out, nor do I think that there's any inspection saying, how are we doing in just living out those expectations.

[00:18:00] That's gold.

[00:18:01] Michael Martin: I think you're exactly right. Um. Just curious too. Um, because I think when, whether it's boards that are providing oversight of leaders or leaders that are providing oversights of, of teams and ministry, um, I guess how we go about the inspection process, uh, is crucial. Not just. The fact that we do the inspecting, but probably also the spirit and the the way in which we do that.

So any wisdom that you'd have to offer in that way? How can those that are in. Those kinds of oversight relationships go about doing that, inspecting in a way that is life giving.

[00:18:39] David Ashcraft: Yeah. Well I would say, first of all, even just having some expectations written out. And so does the organization have a plan?

Does it have, this is kind of the way we operate. Um, oftentimes that's described as the culture of the organization. But is there really something put down on paper that says. Or now maybe on your screen, but is there someplace? Is it recorded? This is how we expect you to behave. And again, that can sound negative, but it's not.

It's, it's really boundaries. Uh, the way it's often described to me is, um, are there guardrails? If you're heading down a road, are there guardrails? And the guardrails are really there to protect the individuals. And so without guardrails, you know, if you're driving in a precarious road on a, on a mountain side.

You want those guardrails there because that you feel like that's what's gonna keep you from going off the cliff. And so I think we need those guardrails. So the first thing I'd say is, are there even guardrails in place, Michael? And I think a lot of organizations don't have that. And that if they do, oftentimes they may be reviewed when the person is hired, but that's kind of it.

And they're not ever looked at again. And the expectation is, oh yes, he or she are following those guidelines, but there's never any follow up inspection. As to, uh, whether they're following those or not. And usually it's not intentionally, um, disregarding those, nor do I think if somebody drifts, it's intentional that they drift.

I don't know that anybody sets out to drift, but drift happens. And without bumping up against those guardrails, then that's where I think we start getting into trouble.

[00:20:06] Michael Martin: Yeah. I appreciate you bringing that up because in the context of Yeah, again, this. New leader care standard that ECFA has been, uh, advocating here for the last little bit.

And really, again, we like to say the ECFA members are the real heroes of the story because a lot of it's based on the feedback, the, you know, the ideas and suggestions of, of our members in this space. But, um. As we were talking about this, we found that exact same gap too, of these are things that boards will often talk about through a hiring process with the leader.

Or maybe unfortunately, in situations where there has to be some sort of a separation or things haven't gone well, and so boards are kind of looking at it at that point. But like, what about the middle? Yeah. Yeah. And so if we expect boards to do that on the front end and maybe at the. At the tail end, then why is there also none of that happening in the middle?

[00:20:55] David Ashcraft: Well, the unfortunate thing is usually when they do it at the tail end, it's because there's been a mess up. [00:21:00] Um, as there's been some kind of misstep along the way. Somebody's gone off the road or off the rails and gotten themselves in trouble, and so then they're looking back saying, oh my, how did we get there?

We had these things written out, but how did we have this crash? And so, yeah, I think there is a gap in the middle. And I'll just, Michael, the way we did it, so the church that I pastored was LCBC Church. It's a church in Pennsylvania. Church of about 22,000 people. Yeah. Each weekend. So we had a staff of about 300 people.

And what we did is when we finally wrote out kind of, here's the expectations for you to follow, and it's probably a, I don't know, a two or three page document, but we then with the staff. We sit down twice a year and we call it an action development plan, and the supervisor, the director, will actually, together with that person, go through the entire document.

And in that document would be, here are your job expectations for the role that you have, but it's also the here, here's the way we behave. And so it talks about relationships with the opposite sex or it talks about the use or abuse potential of alcohol and, and just real details. And so what we encourage the director or the supervisor is to truly read through that with them line by line and say, any struggles in any of these areas, rather than just kind of handing them the documents saying, are you doing okay?

Um, we feel like that's, you're gonna miss out on information. So truly going line by line and, and not. Not that I'm seeing behavior. I guess if there were behavior that was outta line, you could call that out. But it really isn't questioning that. It's more how are you doing these areas? Anything we can be doing to help you.

And so it's bringing to mind at least twice a year. Here are our expectations, here are the behaviors. Here are the places where we feel like you could step out of bounds and we're trying to keep you, uh, safe as much as we're trying to call you out or you know, scold you kind of thing.

[00:22:51] Michael Martin: Yeah, I'm glad that you shared that practical example.

Uh, 'cause I was gonna ask you, you know, how have you as a leader invited some of that into your own life? And so was that the case at LCBC? Was this something that kind of started getting modeled? I. First between you and the board and then the organization, or how did that all come about?

[00:23:10] David Ashcraft: Um, I think it was kind of happening all across the board, early years at LCBC when they would do so I'll back up.

Um, the board does an annual review of me or now Jason, who's the senior pastor. And early days when they would do those reviews, they would kind of take, they would sit in the. In the boardroom, they would come up with all their comments and then they blend it all together. And so what you got was kind of a mush of a lot of comments, but they weren't real specific.

And then we changed it, I don't know, 10 or 15, probably 15, almost 20 years ago now to say no. Let's actually have very specific comments that are more pointed. And you know, I always hope most of them are positive, but if there were questions they needed to ask them, let's go ahead and ask those questions, it'd be pointed.

And so, um, that was modeled by the board in that review of myself. And then we continued to refine that and [00:24:00] do that with the rest of staff as well. The board still does an annual review, whereas with the, the staff, it's twice a year, but it's not even so much a review as it is just kind of a reminder of here are the things that we're concerned that we keep in line.

Again, not to. Not to hurt you, not to hold you back, but actually let you thrive. And, and we've really found Michael, that when it comes even to things like creativity, sometimes people think, oh, if I just got a blank slate, I could be so creative. And what we've actually, we believe is you, you're actually more creative when you've got a box you've gotta work in.

And you've gotta find creative ways to still get things done inside of that box or in spite of those limitations. So we found it to be a real healthy thing for the staff and, uh, a way that they can thrive. It's not something that holds them back.

[00:24:45] Michael Martin: Yeah, no, that, that makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of value in having a plan.

And then like you said, uh, I'm just jotting down notes as you're sharing too, the expectations inspecting. I think all of those are really good. Maybe shifting back to GLN too, I think one of the real unique opportunities that you have too is not just serving, uh, church and ministry leaders, but also, uh, leaders in business government sort of.

All sorts of leadership spaces. Um, but I'm wondering too, especially as you think about David, um, leadership outside of the church, are you seeing too any noteworthy trends kind of along the same lines, like even outside of a church and ministry context, maybe some of these same principles applying like, um, are we all kind of waking up across not just leadership in the church, but elsewhere to the importance of this topic?

[00:25:44] David Ashcraft: Man, I wish I could say yes. I think that's the case. I'm not sure that it necessarily is Michael. Um, I. So I know from myself personally and what we had at LCBC, our standards were probably a little more tight, and I shouldn't say our standards, but our checks and balances were maybe a little more tight than others.

And I think the Me Too movement, um, in society definitely caused people's boundaries to go up a little bit tighter. But there's some things that are just kind of common sense, at least in my view, where, um. Uh, you know, I guess a board could choose to, um, mandate these for their leaders, but for me personally, it's, you know, I, I typically don't ever travel alone.

There's always somebody with me. For many years that's been Ruth, my wife that travels with me, um, you know, not meeting separately offsite with somebody of the opposite sex and just a lot of things that. On one hand, um, you kind of go, oh, that sounds like so, such a prudish thing. You know, Mike Pence, when he was vice president, mentioned that in an interview and he just got blasted for all kinds of things.

And, and so on one hand you think, ah, I just, I feel like a prude on the other. It's just, it's just wise. It's just those boundaries are there to protect you. And so I think you kinda have to decide, do I. Do I wanna [00:27:00] risk slipping and, and falling in a way that I shouldn't or would I really have some boundaries that are there to protect me?

And you know, maybe one of the things, Michael, that we ought to say too is I think one of the ways that keeps us from falling is just being willing to admit that we could.

[00:27:15] Michael Martin: Yeah.

[00:27:15] David Ashcraft: And I think that, uh, I was talking to Peter Greer, who's the, uh, president of Hope International and just a great, great organization.

And Peter actually has a new book coming out and, and one of the things he says is just, it's that. Unwillingness to admit that we could fall, that oftentimes gets us into trouble. And so just acknowledgement, first of all, that I'm a sinner. I could fall. And so I want the barriers there to help me, um, is one of the first steps in preventing a fall.

So Yeah. Amen.

[00:27:42] Michael Martin: Humility goes a long way. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, for sure. Well, and I think what I'm hearing you say too is, uh, maybe we aren't seeing it in some of the other spaces, and that's okay. I think it's, this is really an opportunity for churches and ministries to lead the way. I mean, we would say that all the time, like churches and ministry organizations should be the ones setting the highest standards, right?

Like, not that we're again. Aiming at perfection or anything like that. We've gotta approach that with humility. But, um, we should be, I think yeah. Setting the highest standards. Yeah. Uh, when we're representing Christ.

[00:28:16] David Ashcraft: Very much so. So, I know when I stepped into the role of GLN, um, I think some of the standards, there was such an expectation that, oh, men and women are equal.

Um, we are having such a high standard that we don't need checks and balances. Um, and yet. Uh, obviously we do. And so when I stepped into the role at GLN, I had lots of expectations of me at LCBC, and so I stepped in with those same expectations at the GLN. And so again, some of 'em you kind of bump up against business people that were used to a different set of standards before I came, and so then I'd kind of go, oh, you know, am I being prudish this way?

But to your point. I think by us living up to some of those expectations and saying, you know, just this, here's my personal practice, then I think it helps elevate, or at least maybe it makes somebody a business question, do we need to have similar or do we at least need to question, um, the expectations and the way we behave around others?

And so I think to your point, we can set the bar, we can set the standard if we choose to.

[00:29:15] Michael Martin: So yeah, no, that's right. Setting the bar, setting the standard, all of that. Uh, does go a long way in, in enhancing trust. And so one of the things, uh, would love to kind of hear your take on too is, um. What about leaders who've stepped into an organization where there has been some kind of a breach of trust, uh, a leadership failure of some kind that's having an impact that has had an impact on trust.

Um, what advice would you give leaders who are stepping into a situation like that, um, and for the organization as they're working to rebuild trust? What would you say?

[00:29:50] David Ashcraft: Yeah. Well, again, I think transparency is huge, and so being able to have honest conversations with people, I think having a set of expectations is important.

I, I, I also [00:30:00] would caution though about going overboard with the expectations. Uh, you know, we tend to swing on a pendulum, and so something happens to one side, and so then we almost set such tight guidelines that it's really not realistic. And so being careful not to overreact, but that's usually not always the case.

I think it's usually just. Then create some kind of expectations that will hopefully keep this from happening again. And there's nothing that's foolproof. I mean, there's always what's interesting to me with accountability groups and partners, and I know people that just, you gotta have an accountability partner and, and I.

You know, if we wanna lie, if, if we're stepping over the line in certain areas and we're willing to do that in secret, then we're also probably willing to lie to our accountability partners. So my point is, there's, there's nothing that's gonna fail proof us and keep us from stepping across the line. But the more checks and balances there are, then I think it's gonna prevent a lot of places to fall if we know we're accountable.

And so setting up some accountability steps, I think is real wise. And so making sure there are things in place, being willing to talk about it openly. Um. It is hard with the past. 'cause we don't always know everything that happened in the past. And there are lots of discussions of what could have gone on before.

And so at some point you have to say, okay, we're gonna stop, stop dealing with the past, let's just talk about now and let's talk about the future and just make sure we're not setting ourselves up to fail again.

[00:31:18] Michael Martin: Yeah, no, that's all, that's all really good in terms of having those processes in place. I appreciate what you shared too about, um, regardless of sort of what's those processes that are in place, like although they're wise, they're important to establish, um, leaders in certain situations can push past those. And so I'm curious, what would you say too for, uh, boards of organizations, those that are coming alongside leaders? 'cause so much of this is also, uh, comes down to kind of a heart issue for leaders in the, the place of health that they may be in.

Um. What can those, you know, those that God has kind of put in, uh, places of influence alongside leaders, how can they also, um, be helping to invest in caring for the heart of the leader? So that, like you said, of course, they can't control whether or not a leader pushes past those things, but how can they be also maybe even going beyond processes, looking at the heart of the leader and saying, Hey, how can we truly invest in the heart and the wellbeing of this person so that hopefully they're not putting, pushing past some of those processes that have been put in place.

[00:32:29] David Ashcraft: Well, you used used the word earlier, humility and I. I think one, just watching the leader and saying, okay, do we see him, her exhibiting any sense of humility in their ministry?

And it doesn't matter the size of the church or the organization in ministry, you can get accolades from all kinds of people, and I. It could be a church of 50 people and there's still 50 people saying, you're the greatest in the world and you're, you know, you're helping me in my walk with God. And, and so it's real easy to listen to that and [00:33:00] start believing it if you're not careful.

And so I think one, just checking that sense of humility and is it there, is it not? There is this person starting to believe what the people are telling them. And I don't think it's the board to try to knock the pastor or the leader down several notches. I'm not saying that. But I think there are signs you can watch for the way the person talks, um, how they, who else they're surrounding themselves with.

Uh, there's things like that that you could start seeing that you say, man, I, I'm a little bit concerned here. Or just meet with that leader enough, frequently enough that they truly do know what's going on. And they do truly, you know, they show up at church enough. There's some board models where, well, I, I may be starting to stray here, so No, you're good there.

Model, this is good. It's a national organization or it's national leaders that come once a year to meet with that leader, but they're not involved every Sunday. They don't see what's going on during the week at the church or the organization They're leading and so are, are the. Are the board members involved enough in the ministry that they can actually watch and they can sit back on Sunday and see who's circling the pastor and see who seems to be hanging out all the time and, and you just pick up on things, I think.

And so one, I guess encouragement would be be involved in the ministry enough that you're not just listening to that leader give reports. Every couple of quarters, but you really don't know what's going on. Uh, so active involvement in the ministry, um, listening to what people are saying around them.

Watch is there that sense of humility there. And then actually having written guidelines. And I know Michael, one of my encouragement to the, uh. ECFA was, I love what you guys have written thus far. Does it need to be a little bit more detailed and, and I know your encouragement was, well, that's probably up to the individual, individual boards, but I think there is more that individual boards can do in their context that they think is appropriate.

I. And again, as long as we keep remembering these are boundaries, these are guardrails that's there to help the person and protect the person. Not because we think they're some awful person, but we know, just like anybody, they're susceptible to sliding off the road. And so let's put guardrails up to protect them as much as possible.

[00:35:04] Michael Martin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, the, those are some good words about board members, uh, remembering to stay engaged. Yeah. Part of why, um. I think it's been wonderful. There's just, um, even in the history of ECFA from the very beginning, having a governance standard and ensuring that the boards are, uh, exercising responsible governance, been kind of a requirement of the ECFA standards all these years, and you just look back and say, wow, that was wisdom to include those standards. And in a lot of ways this is kind of an extension of that. Um, I'm also curious.

[00:35:39] David Ashcraft: Yeah, and Michael, I just say too, the benefit of having those standards written down is then if you find yourself in an environment where it could be questionable, then it actually helps me to blame it on the board and say, you know what, um, we just have these standards that I have to follow, therefore I can't have that meeting, or I can't do this or that.

Um, and then it, then I don't have to feel so much like approved. [00:36:00] It's just. It's the board's fault and, but it gives me an excuse sometimes and, and as foolish as that may sound, it actually is beneficial sometimes to be able to say, yeah, that's just something the board has asked us not to do. And so it makes it easier for me to uphold those standards oftentimes by being able to say that.

[00:36:15] Michael Martin: Yeah. To have those guidelines

in place.

[00:36:17] David Ashcraft: Yeah.

[00:36:18] Michael Martin: Yeah I was also curious too, because you, you talked about the importance of boards watching for these things, uh, in a leader. What would you say to, for a board member who maybe has, uh, I don't know, a check about something, they have a hunch, there's just something that's, uh, in their spirit.

Maybe not totally settle, but I. We've seen it before too, where they're like kind of on the fence, right? Of like, do I say something? What is appropriate? When to step in? Do you have any advice about that? I mean, if you're, if you're a board member of an organization and you. When, when is a good time to say something?

[00:36:55] David Ashcraft: Yeah. You know, I would imagine, Michael, what's hard is oftentimes the person's in that board position, maybe because that leader placed them there or invited them there, they're in the organization. They appreciate that leader and they hold that leader in high regard. And so to question something could feel real awkward, but again, it's the mindset in my questioning because I'm accusing that person of something, or my question because I just wanna protect that person.

And so my encouragement would be, have a conversation. But not even in the board meeting, but ask outside of the board, is everything okay? This is what I'm seeing. I just wanna make sure we're okay. I would strongly, um, encourage not to have side conversations in the organization, um, but to have we.

Constantly talk about how to communicate truth with grace. And so if I were concerned about something you were doing, then just say, Michael, let's, let's just talk here. And this is something that I, I'm seeing and should I be concerned, should I not? I would think, and the person in your mind, if I question that, then you're gonna think, oh, okay, either I'm doing something that looks wrong.

Or I am doing something that is wrong, and so it would cause me to check my activities. If I was stepping outta line, maybe unintentionally or maybe purposely, then it might cause me to back up and say, okay, I'm sorry. Um, I can see where you might think that. Um, so having that direct communication with grace, I think is real important.

The thing I wouldn't do or encourage is for me to tell everybody else. In the organization that I'm concerned about this without ever having that conversation with you first. And I, I think oftentimes in church world especially, we're real good about talking behind each other's backs. And so, and I just strongly believe that one of the most detrimental things that can happen to an organization is when everybody starts talking behind each other's backs.

So again, just communicate truth with grace. And I'm just here as a friend and, uh, just wanna be careful. Be sure that we're okay and here's what I see, but I could be wrong. So,

[00:38:44] Michael Martin: yeah, no, I think that's such a key point. Um, and I take it, yeah, you probably in, in raising that point about cautioning against side conversations is probably something that you've seen take place over the years.

What is, what is some of the damage that's [00:39:00] done, uh, when there's those sideways conversations as opposed to, you know, folks addressing it directly with the leader or whoever it may be?

[00:39:08] David Ashcraft: Well, typically I think when that happens, Michael is, um, eventually I. The conversation will, we'll have that conversation, but usually it happens because if I don't.

Actually talk to you directly. Then I talk to everybody else. At some point, somebody's gonna come to you and say, man, do you know Michael, what David's saying? And so probably instead of me coming to you, you're gonna come to me and say, Hey, I'm hearing that you're asking these questions, making these statements.

And then there's been a lot of relational damage that's happened there. And so, and it probably, it wasn't me talking to one other person, it's me talking to one or two other people. But they assume, well, if I'm talking to them about it, it must be okay to talk to other people about it. And so you just have this huge thing that snowballs.

And so what it erodes is any kind of trust. You're not gonna trust me anymore if I'm talking behind your back. So we've lost trust, credibility. It just really is so damaging to the organization where I could have, and again, it's biblical. If I would just sit down and talk with you directly, then that's gonna avoid so many of the other problems.

And if somehow you still deny what I think I'm seeing, and if I feel like you're not being truthful with me, then I just keep watching. And if I see it again, then I can call it out again. Um, but yeah, I think there's huge benefits to going directly to the person.

[00:40:24] Michael Martin: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So you touched on the importance of having a trusted relationship, uh, is just so key, uh, trust in these, in these relationships, um, when it's not there.

That's a huge challenge to leaders receiving the kind of exactly care and accountability that we're talking about. Are there any other, uh, key challenges that come to mind, David, and how can those be overcome?

[00:40:48] David Ashcraft: Well, I would say a key challenge is for me to, if so let's say I'm one of the board members in your organization.

I see something I'm concerned about. I mean, for me and most people, I mean, I hate confrontation. I don't want to have it unless I have to. So for me to build up the nerve, I. However much time I spend praying about, I need to find the right time to talk to Michael about this. I'm investing hugely in trying to talk to you and, and there's a risk on my part, how's he gonna respond and things like that.

And so I think if we realize the person that's coming to us, I. If they're not probably just doing this off the cuff, they've thought about it. They've, they care deeply about the organization. They care deeply about me, and they highly invested in this conversation. And so, rather than dismiss them, rather than just assume they're out after me, or you know, now they're, they're no longer with me.

They paid a big price potentially to have this conversation. So take that into account and respect that and realize, man, maybe there's something to what they're saying that I need to be careful of. And so I think it's really leaning into that conversation, not pushing away. And I know for me, if I were to have that conversation with somebody had it with me, my initial reaction might be defensive.

My re initial reaction [00:42:00] might be to push back. But I would hope that after I do that, I would also be willing to say, okay, but wait a minute, is there some truth? Or what do I need to be seeing? How do I need to be behaving differently? Uh, or is there a place where maybe I'm bumping up against that guardrail and if I keep going this way, then then I'm in trouble.

So.

[00:42:15] Michael Martin: Yeah. So I think what you're saying too is just really seeing it as this is a gift. Yeah. Oh, definitely.

Yeah.

And, and maybe it's a little hard to see at first, but Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate what you said, because that person very likely, yeah. I mean, it was, uh. Kind of even a challenge for them or process to, to overcome of like, all right, I'm gonna have this conversation, give this feedback, ask these questions.

And that's really, that is a gift for all of us when we

receive it.

[00:42:43] David Ashcraft: Totally is. And we all know that it's hard sometimes to have certain conversations when I, I. So when the board of the GLN first approached me about stepping into the leadership role, um, it was almost three, if not four days before I found the right time to tell Ruth about this offer.

'cause I wasn't sure how she was gonna respond to it, if she thought it would be a good thing, if it's gonna take me away. And so were you flipping

all the light switches? I'm just kidding. You shoulda tried coming back to your story.

But I mean, you know how it is in our marriages. Yeah. Where if everything's going great, then you think, well, I don't wanna say anything to disrupt it.

It's wonderful right now, why would I disrupt things if it's not going well, then why would I wanna say something that may make it worse? And so you just keep looking for the right time. And that happens in our marriages, but it happens with board members and in our ministries where. Man, the ministry is going so well right now.

I don't wanna say anything or do anything to disrupt what's going on. So I'll just wait. I won't have this conversation. Or if it's struggling, then man, I don't wanna do anything to add to the struggle, so I'll just wait on this conversation. And we keep waiting for the perfect time. The perfect time rarely comes.

And I know for, again, my conversation with Ruth about the GLN, after about three days, I thought I just need to just say it. And the funny thing is, once I said it, she was like, oh yeah, that's. It's a no brainer. I would've thought that that was gonna happen. Um, and so just being able to go ahead and have the conversation.

But I think also, Michael, we, we contribute to that. Are we open to those kind of conversations? Do we tell the board board members, you can come to me and, um, you know, I would often say. I want to hear what you're thinking. I may be mad at first whenever you tell me what you're thinking, but I'll get over that and, and then I can start dealing with it and so yeah.

I think it's more important that we hear the truth and we need to be open to it as well and let people know we're open to it.

[00:44:26] Michael Martin: Yeah, making space for that. I think that's really good. Very practical. One of the things we've seen too, David, and. The ECFA members that we've talked to that are kind of already pioneering the way in this space, a lot of them will have some sort of a dedicated, like a board committee that this is their responsibility of, you know, providing care for the leader and having these kinds of conversations.

And so something even as practical as just having those meeting times on the calendar, uh, it's carving out that time. It's creating space for, I think exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. I. Well, great. Well, I [00:45:00] know we're, as we're kind of coming here bringing the conversation to a close, uh, I think it'd be great to just full circle David.

Um, you alluded to at the beginning just some of the challenges that, um, a lot of folks are experiencing in leadership, some of the isolation and things that are out there. Um, if you could just give one piece of advice to leaders today, uh, especially maybe those who are feeling weary, uh, and leading during these times. What would that advice be?

[00:45:29] David Ashcraft: You know, I would probably say, I'd use the word intentionality, Michael, and be intentional about putting yourself in relationships with other people. Um, I tend to be, uh, very introverted and so, um, I. I am not, I don't think I need relationships oftentimes, but I do, and I need 'em in different ways.

Um, Ruth and I, Ruth is probably my greatest accountability partner, and she is great at asking me questions. I've learned now, we've been married 46 years and I've learned to trust her radar. And if she feels like something is not right or is it's not right, and somebody in the church, and that could be a man and that could be a woman, but she goes, oh, that's somebody I'm not sure.

I don't, I just don't feel good about that person. I've learned over the years to trust that. And, um, and so is there somebody in your life that you can speak with that is gonna give you that? Um, but intentionality of, again, looking for other mentors to talk to intentionality and just, I. Other pastors, if you're a pastor or other business leaders, if you're a business leader, to be able to talk into and say, here's what we do.

What do you do? What are you learning? I think those kind of things are real critical. So I'd probably just say intentionality and make sure that you're leaning into other people relationally, because again, once we isolate, it's easier to kind of dig in further and further and further. Um, I think it was John Uff, uh, just recently that I was talking with, and John was just talking about, um, the mindset that we can develop where all of a sudden we start thinking everybody else is the, um, is the one that's out to get you and you start, everybody else is the villain and you're kind of the only person that's, you know, upholding the truth.

And, and once we start getting that mindset, then that's probably a sign that. There's a problem here because we're probably not the only one that's upholding the truth. And it's kind of like the Elijah story. I'm the only one here that you know, still loves you, God, and following you and, and there were thousands of others that we're still following God at that point.

And so that isolation just digs us deeper. And the dig deeper we go, the more trouble we get into I think. Intentional about relationships.

[00:47:30] Michael Martin: Yeah, that's a good word. Intentionality. Uh, none of us just sort of stumble or wander our way into health, do we?

[00:47:37] David Ashcraft: Exactly. I wish we did, but, but you're right. No, we don't.

[00:47:41] Michael Martin: It doesn't work that way.

[00:47:42] David Ashcraft: Unfortunately not. Yeah.

[00:47:44] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well David, thanks for being intentional with us today. Thank you for your time and your insights. We really appreciate it. Appreciate you. .

[00:47:51] David Ashcraft: Thanks Michael. Thanks for the, uh, opportunity and thank you for what you guys are doing and helping, leading and, and guiding.

We appreciate that very much.

[00:47:58] Michael Martin: You too. Keep up the good [00:48:00] work.

[00:48:00] David Ashcraft: Thanks, Michael. You as well.

[00:48:03] Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.