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Welcome to The Full Desk Experience, a podcast for leaders in the staffing and recruiting industry. Hosted by Kortney Harmon, Director of Industry Relations at Crelate, this show is designed to provide insights and tips from a highly knowledgeable consultant in the field.
Join us live (or catch the replay) in our Workshop series, where Kortney delivers expert advice and actionable tips for you to take to your firms immediately.
In the Industry Spotlight series, Kortney interviews industry experts and leaders, highlighting their journeys to success and key insights into the staffing and recruiting industry.
Don't have an hour to dedicate to a podcast? Listen in to our FDE Express - where you'll get quick-hit insights and tips in 10 minutes or less.
With new episodes dropping weekly, this is the perfect opportunity to stay up-to-date on the latest trends and best practices in the industry. Don't miss out - join us for The Full Desk Experience today! If you'd like to attend the live session, be sure to visit our website for more information.
Annette Wehrli [00:00:00]:
In the absence of information, people will make up their own stuff and we love to do it. We can't help it. We just can't help it. So we are putting ourselves at risk when we don't communicate because people start making up their own truth and they start making up their own interpretation or narrative on what's happening. And that's another way, frankly, that leaders give away their power and their influence is when they don't communicate well.
Kortney Harmon [00:00:24]:
Hi, I'm Kortney Harmon, director of industry relations at Crelate. This is the industry Spotlight, a series of the full Desk Experience, a curlate original podcast. In this series, we will talk with top leaders and influencers who are shaping the talent industry, shining a light on popular trends, the latest news, and the stories that laid the groundwork for their success. Welcome back to another episode of the full Desk Experience. Industry Spotlight welcome to another episode of the full Desk Experience, where we dive into the intricacies of the staffing and recruiting industry. I'm your host, Kortney Harmon. And today I am excited. I get to have one of my favorite people ever on our show.
Kortney Harmon [00:01:11]:
She is truly an exceptional guest. Annette Wehrli Annette is a seasoned expert in organizational effectiveness, leadership excellence and individual growth with over two decades of experience in the industry and majority of that being in search outside of consulting years. She's a coach, consultant and founder of Effectivity Consulting where she helps leaders unlock full potential by addressing interconnected components of leadership, vision, culture, communication and so much more. So today we're going to explore her journey in the staffing and recruiting world, the insights that she's learned in that leadership, and strategies that drive success in this ever evolving industry. Annette, I'm so excited to have you on the show. I love talking to you. You make me think differently about every conversation we've ever had. So thank you so much for taking the time to join me today.
Annette Wehrli [00:02:05]:
I am so happy to be here and thank you for inviting me to talk with you today. I'm super excited.
Kortney Harmon [00:02:11]:
I love it. So I obviously know a lot about your journey working together in the past, but tell our listeners a little about your journey, how you got in the industry, your expertise, what makes you so passionate about organizational development and maybe a little bit more about your new consulting firm?
Annette Wehrli [00:02:27]:
Absolutely. So I, on a really high level, I started in the search industry, not intentionally, I just needed work out of college, right. And so just stumbled into it and was a recruiter back in the day, very long time ago. And then I went into consulting and I worked for one of the big consulting firms was on the road, worked in house, also worked on the road, did all that and really fell in love with the consulting industry and that function in business. And I left that organization, and then I found where I spent the next 20 years of my career. Never thought I would stay that long, but I've been in search really the whole time, except for those three years. And when I most recently had a consulting role and a leadership role within the search industry. It really was this beautiful combination of me having my knowledge about search, my knowledge about training and consulting, and being able to combine those things together and then run programs and departments and whatnot focused in that area.
Annette Wehrli [00:03:38]:
So what I love about what I do is that I get to influence business owners and leaders to build healthy, strong environments where people want to work. And since we spend most of our day at work, I really think that it's important that leaders lead well, and I try to help that every day.
Kortney Harmon [00:04:00]:
I love that. I'm so happy our paths have crossed because we've stayed in touch over the years. And I truly think you are amazing at your craft. So I am super excited for our audience to hear your insights and what they should be doing in the business versus on the business discussions. I'm sure we're going to talk about all kinds of good stuff. I'm so excited. Okay, so let's talk about. We're going to get straight into the nitty gritty.
Kortney Harmon [00:04:23]:
Let's talk about leadership. You've worked with a lot of offices. I know this personally. Talk to me about what you've seen over the years in the staffing and recruiting industry when it comes to leadership. The good, the bad, the ugly.
Annette Wehrli [00:04:36]:
Yeah. And there are all three. Of course, there's always good, bad, and ugly in everything, right? But what excites me and what I am drawn to about being a student of leadership and being a coach and a consultant in that space is leadership is an art. Yes. There is science to it, right? And there are best practices. And there are ten things to do to do this and all that kind of stuff. However it differs. Like think about accounting.
Annette Wehrli [00:05:02]:
Accounting is a science. You do this and this is what you get. It's math. It always comes out to that same number. And all you have to do is plug in that thing, that formula or whatever, and it will do what it's supposed to do. Leadership is not that way. And that's what I love about it. It is wildly varied and organic and subjective and so many other things.
Annette Wehrli [00:05:25]:
It allows a lot of style and different kinds of applications. So when you ask me what have I seen over the years, I've seen a lot because everybody's different and there isn't one path to being an effective leader, and that's actually what I love about it. But if I were to group my observations over the last 25 years, in a leadership sense, probably across the board, but I'll stay within the scope of search is really three key types, if you will, of leaders, and the first would be the visionary. And these are the folks that are on the edge, they're leading edge. They're constantly consuming information about the industry and business in general. Not just search, but the business in general, the market. What's happening? How can we get crazy? How can we disrupt? How can we shift what we're doing? Those are the visionaries. The second group that I would kind of cluster people into is the influencers and thought leaders of leadership.
Annette Wehrli [00:06:25]:
Right? So they're either search content experts or leadership content experts, but those are the people that are spreading great ideas, getting people on board, firing up the general population of people about ideas, and really influencing us from a social standpoint, certainly over the last ten years. And then the third component is where I think most people default to, and that's people leaders. Right. So that's obvious. That's probably what we're going to talk most about today. But you've got visionaries, you've got thought leaders, and you have people leaders. And in my experience, it's somewhat unusual to find someone who can do all three really well. And that's perfectly fine.
Annette Wehrli [00:07:04]:
You don't have to be a genius in all three of those areas. But it's really nice when you can build a leadership team that's balanced with all three components and many more aspects of leadership. And that's what I love about it, is it's complex, it's subjective, and there's a lot of room for definition and interpretation.
Kortney Harmon [00:07:23]:
And not only do you have in leadership, like you look at yourself, right, but you're dealing with humans. So no matter what your style is, it's constantly evolving, it's constantly changing with the audience, the generations that you're working with, and how they respond best to you.
Annette Wehrli [00:07:39]:
Absolutely. And that's why it's always an ongoing growth. Yeah, right. There's nothing wrong with accounting, but you do this and this what happens. It's a math calculation. That's not how we roll in leadership. And I love that because it keeps us on our edge. It keeps us learning and stretching and growing and challenging ourselves and adapting.
Annette Wehrli [00:07:58]:
And that's what fires me up. And I love helping people do that. Adapting and growing and stretching and really impacting lives.
Kortney Harmon [00:08:06]:
I think that's amazing. Okay, so you talked about the three buckets.
Annette Wehrli [00:08:10]:
Yep.
Kortney Harmon [00:08:10]:
Oftentimes people don't know what they don't know in these situations. Right. We've get in, we're in certain organizations, and maybe we don't see an outside lens, so they don't necessarily see the mistakes they're making. So talk to me about what you see as the most common leadership mistakes in our industry today. If we're talking specifically about search, talent, industry overall.
Annette Wehrli [00:08:33]:
Sure. Let's go with two. I mean, we could talk about this all day, but I'll go with two. And they're not necessarily in order, so I'm just going to start with one of them. I would say one of the biggest things that I see happen is that leaders in this industry give away their influence. Let me talk about what I mean by that.
Kortney Harmon [00:08:52]:
Elaborate.
Annette Wehrli [00:08:53]:
Let me use the word power because that will frame it a little bit stronger. But I don't like the word power because I don't like the misuse of it. Right. I don't like commanding power, controlling power. That's not what I mean. What I mean is influence. But most people understand in a more definitive way the word power. And I think they give away their power.
Annette Wehrli [00:09:11]:
And I'm talking about business owners, leaders, and managers within the search industry. And here's what I mean by that. The first would start at the leadership level. Kortney, you know that I'm always a root based person, and I like to dig underneath rocks and answer it from the root, because then we're solving it. We're not just dealing with all of the fruit that comes out of it and constantly having to go back to the fruit. Fruit, fruit. So let's talk about the root. And there's two real roots that I see in these issues of giving away power.
Annette Wehrli [00:09:38]:
The first is they tolerate misalignment and lack of leadership expertise in their leadership team. So they tolerate poor behavior, they tolerate misalignment, and they just kind of like, well, we'll work through it. We'll figure it out. And there are a whole lot of implications that come from that. And sometimes what that's rooted in is, and we'll probably talk about this later, but is that many leaders in our industry are salespeople at heart, and they worked their way up through sales. And so they may be wonderful at sales and organizing a sales team to do whatever you need to do with your search assignments, but they're not necessarily trained or schooled or they have the heart for leadership. And we tolerate that because they're good, they're strong builders. So I think that's one mistake that people make.
Annette Wehrli [00:10:31]:
A second one is partially also because of that sales hat that most people are wearing or they're rooting up that way, is flavor of the day. So by nature, sales is, hey, go take advantage of that. Hey, go find that. Go find a lead and kind of follow the lead, so to speak. And we can do that from a leadership standpoint, too, in our industry, in this space. And so it's like, hey, we're going to try this for a while, and then two or three weeks later we're trying something different. And that really degrades leadership within an office. Not following through and having flavor of the day.
Annette Wehrli [00:11:05]:
I'm going to bring up the third one, which is the elephant in the room. It might be sensitive for some people listening, but they also give away a lot of their power and influence to big billers. And what that can look like is because Mark is a great biller, we tolerate his selfishness, or we tolerate his unwillingness to invest in rookies, or we tolerate how he doesn't really come to any of our social functions and he certainly doesn't follow our sales process. Right. And I get it. Big billers are wonderful and we love them, and everybody wants billers. I want you to have a big biller, but I don't want that big biller to run the show. And sometimes that can happen out of fear of rocking the boat.
Annette Wehrli [00:11:47]:
Leaders don't want to rock the boat. They don't want that person to leave. They don't want to lose that profitability or that revenue that's coming through that person. But here's the thing. There are some times when that big biller is sinking the boat that you don't want to rock, and there are other times when those big billers cause other people to jump ship. And so we really have to balance that so that we're not giving away what's ours to influence.
Kortney Harmon [00:12:12]:
I love that. I'm going to go back to something you said, the first point.
Annette Wehrli [00:12:17]:
Sure.
Kortney Harmon [00:12:17]:
Obviously, with your training background, my training background, what we've seen, can you out train and I know the answer, or can you make that situation better? Because you're right. Oftentimes we get to the point, we try to appease and try to keep somebody so we keep moving them through the system.
Annette Wehrli [00:12:35]:
Right.
Kortney Harmon [00:12:35]:
Well, you're amazing at what you do. I need you to still do that and lead a team. Okay, well, I still need you to manage the team, still be an individual contributor, and, oh, by the way, I need you to attend leadership functions. Most of the time, those people are getting no form of training. They're pushed through the systems because they're successful. Can you help circumvent the bad problems or mistakes with that? With some training, and maybe not completely, but give me your thoughts on that.
Annette Wehrli [00:13:01]:
Well, absolutely. I think you can influence someone's ability to lead. You can expose them, if you will, to leadership concepts and ideas. Again, it comes back to this root of, do you have the heart and the desire to lead people, or really, are you more of at your heart, in your bone marrow? Are you more of a salesperson who wants to go get the hunt, get the hunt, get the hunt. Or are you more of a. A shepherd or a people caretaker, if you will? And is that interesting to you? There are times when we try to force that, and it's pretty obvious that no matter how much coaching or training or support that we give, we're just not going to see that thing change because they're so sales oriented. So I think it really comes back to, before moving a person through the career path of team leader, business unit leader, whatever it's going to be, it's really having very honest conversations that say, what do you really want? We want you here and we want to support your growth. Do you want to do that through sales, and how much of you wants to do that through influencing and leading and shepherding other people within the firm? And then we just have honest conversations about that.
Annette Wehrli [00:14:12]:
I think that is the biggest place we start with. And then once they get in, we can coach and tweak and revisit as things go on. But I think it's influenced, but I. I really think at the core, we have to find out what people want before we move them into these roles.
Kortney Harmon [00:14:26]:
Do you see those conversations happening at organizations that you've kind of worked with and consulted with?
Annette Wehrli [00:14:32]:
They do happen. I think what I've seen, that's a great question. Let me think about this. I have to say, Kortney, that I think the majority of what I have seen is, hey, Kortney's a rock star. She's billing a million or 5 million or whatever her number is a year. And we want to move her into a team lead role. And they approach you and you have the conversation and there's almost like a pressure that a big biller would feel or a strong salesperson would feel to well, gosh, if I don't accept this, can I. Can I still be here? I don't want to run a team, but I kind of feel like I have to.
Annette Wehrli [00:15:09]:
So I think the conversations are happening, but I think more often it's, well, we have a need, you know, our office, you know, our people, you know, our space, our niche. And so it just makes rational sense that you're going to be the one to fit that seat. And I think we can do a better job of having conversations about that and not just plugging it in and assuming that a strong performer in sales also wants to lead people.
Kortney Harmon [00:15:34]:
I love it. Okay, so now you're on a topic that poses another question. You're talking about communication, right. It's about having conversations. So in your experience, talk to me about how poor communication from leadership really impacts affirm success.
Annette Wehrli [00:15:53]:
Yeah. So I want to take a little bit of a step back because I think. I don't know that my answer is limited to the scope of search. Okay. Because I think poor communication from a leadership standpoint, the impact is consistent no matter what business you're in. Right. There may be nuanced things here and there that are specific to us, but the majority is this. I believe and have seen that lack of leadership and strong, clear, consistent communication affects your brand and it affects your internal culture.
Annette Wehrli [00:16:31]:
So it's external and internal. Okay. So what I see happening is when we don't communicate internally, clearly, our team doesn't have clarity. They couldn't say with a bullseye, yeah, I know what we're trying to do. I know why I know what's happening, or I understand the change that's happening here, or fill in the blank, whatever the topic is. If they don't understand that, now they're representing your firm in the market with confusion about what's going on internally, what's expected of them, how they're supposed to navigate through that or all of that. And then now you're starting to degrade your market brand, your reputation, and now you've got confused team members and you've got a confused client or customer. And that is just a recipe for the Wild west, frankly, because in the absence of information, people will make up their own stuff, and we love to do it.
Annette Wehrli [00:17:27]:
We can't help it. We just can't help it. So we are putting ourselves at risk when we don't communicate because people start making up their own truth, and they start making up their own interpretation or narrative on what's happening. And that's another way, frankly, that leaders give away their power and their influence is when they don't communicate.
Kortney Harmon [00:17:44]:
Well, that sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Annette Wehrli [00:17:48]:
There's a lot you can do about it, but nobody wants a watered down brand. And we don't think that long term about it. So it's like, how am I communicating this change that we're making? How am I communicating the shift in our desk focus, the industries that we serve? How am I communicating about internal leadership changes or whatever it is? We don't think that that's going to affect outside the brand, but it really does. So the more we can communicate, the more clearly, the more directly and authentically we can communicate internally. Now we've got a unified team that's going out there and representing us consistently in the market. And now we're off to the races.
Kortney Harmon [00:18:24]:
I love it. Let's talk about strategies, because that's where you really shine about how to drive change. So think about strategies that you've used within organizations and how you can help leaders employ maybe to do better, to develop their teams better. Heck, it's all about retaining talent within their organization because when they do better, they keep people. And there is a stigma in our organization that there's a time stamp on most people. So talk to me about what strategies that you help leaders employ to do better in that process, to keep people to work better.
Annette Wehrli [00:18:58]:
Okay, let's. I'll start with a macro, and then if you want to dive into retention, you know, that that's something I just love to engage with. So let's talk, though, about strategy first. Okay. There's long term and there's short term.
Kortney Harmon [00:19:11]:
Okay.
Annette Wehrli [00:19:12]:
Right. And the two are obviously married and they are interconnected. And long term growth and strategy is what influences our short term focus, or it should. Okay. In a rapidly changing industry, in a rapidly changing world, in the fastest pace we've ever known. Right. Those two things are always, they're not battling, but it can be. And I will say in the search industry or in the sales industry, even wider grouping there.
Annette Wehrli [00:19:43]:
The nature of sales is, what are you doing for me today? What's on your pipeline? What's on your pipeline? What's closing, what's closest to the sale, what's closest to the money? How do we push it today? Today, make it happen. And that's good. We got to drive and move things forward. That's great. That doesn't serve us well when we're trying to focus our short term on the bigger gain of what our long term strategy is. So the way that I like to encourage people to think about this is how do we dig in to our long term strategy? What are we really trying to accomplish and what is not negotiable about that because things are going to come at us, the industry is going to change, the economy is going to change, we're going to have a pandemic. I mean, the list goes on, right? So what are we going to dig into and say, no, this is solid, this is strong, this isn't going to change. This is fundamentally who we are and the legs on the seat that we're sitting on.
Annette Wehrli [00:20:39]:
And how does our short term adjust strategically without us turning into, look, something shiny? Oh, that looks good. Let's try that. So it's this balance of long term and short term and making sure that we're always kind of zooming in and zooming out as leaders that those things are aligned and then that informs how we adjust our short term or how we even frankly, sometimes adjust long term. If we're consistently seeing that short term is just all over the board because things are changing so drastically, we probably need to come zoom out a little bit and figure out what we need to do in our long term and make sure that that still makes sense.
Kortney Harmon [00:21:16]:
I love it. How often do you see those short term and those long term goals not aligning?
Annette Wehrli [00:21:21]:
Well, that, that's a great question. It really depends on what I just talked about is how solid and committed is the leadership team to where we want to go and who we want to be and what we have to do in order to get there. I do a lot of mission, vision, values, work with clients, and we can set a mission and a vision, but then it's the tactical of how do we get there and how much does our short term need to change in order to execute on that broader, that broader goal and vision. So it's, I think it varies based on discipline, commitment, maturity in the business, frankly, and who you have on board and how aligned that leadership team is on the not veering off, of course, because some small thing has shifted.
Kortney Harmon [00:22:10]:
Yeah.
Annette Wehrli [00:22:11]:
Does that make sense?
Kortney Harmon [00:22:12]:
No, it makes complete sense. I have all these situations spewing around in my brain as you're talking. But you mentioned alignment of leadership. There are oftentimes we've been a party, been a part of an organization, that there's a different agenda or that alignment speaks volumes to your team and long term plays into that retention. So let's talk about retention, Annette, because I know, I love this topic because most of the people in the talent industry do have a timestamp, depending on their role, depending on what they're doing. What can organizations do to help retain that top talent? Because you mentioned earlier, well, there's sometimes you don't want to rock the boat or you don't want to cause any waves. What does retention look like? How do we make sure we're doing the best we can for our organization?
Annette Wehrli [00:22:56]:
Yes. So what I'm not going to do here is give you a checklist of ten things to do.
Kortney Harmon [00:23:00]:
Okay.
Annette Wehrli [00:23:01]:
Because that might not work for you. What worked for Joe might not work for Gary. Right. So we have to basically customize what we're doing for you and for your organization. But it really starts with, I have to back way out again because I'm a root based person. Here's the thing. Here's my question to you. How compelling is your offer? Okay.
Annette Wehrli [00:23:21]:
What is it that you're offering to a new hire and or a mid tenured, current employee and a tenured person? What is your offer to that person? Why would they stay? Why should they stay? And that's a big question. Would you take a search assignment for your firm? Is your firm strong enough? Is your culture and your offer strong enough that you're like, yeah, I can go to market with this, and I will have fish jumping in this barrel? You can't say yes to that. And we're all biased because we all think our organizations are great, but we're biased to that. So a very practical step that I would encourage people to take, Kortney, is to put as much energy into your own employee value proposition as you do to your client value proposition. Right. So how are you focused on what you're offering and taking it that seriously, treating yourself as a client, if you would. And from there, then we get into developing and retaining. Right.
Annette Wehrli [00:24:19]:
So to develop your people, you have to know them. You have to be in their presence. And that's a big challenge right now. And I don't have the magic answer for this, but it's a big challenge right now with people being off site and hybrid and working from Brazil and all these different from the US, and that's a challenge. And the world is trying to figure that out these days. So I certainly don't have the magic bullet for that. But to develop people, you have to know them. You have to sit with them, you have to listen, you have to find out what they're doing.
Annette Wehrli [00:24:47]:
Yet, frankly, you have to find out what's going on at home or in other aspects of their life, because we're bringing all of us to work these days. And the pandemic really shifted things in terms of balance and people wanting a work environment that just meets their balance. There's so much I could say about that, but leaders are stewards, and so we have to know our people and we have to steward our resources, our time, our energy to help them grow and help them develop. But that's not a one size fits all, pull it off the shelf and just make everybody go through this. It's how do I really engage with you? And from a retention standpoint, one of the most simplistic, yet powerful ways to address this is to actually find out why people are leaving, ask why they're leaving, and do something about their answers, and give people reasons to stay, but don't wait until they leave to find out that information. So every time you're doing a quarterly or a whatever frequency makes sense to you, monthly, quarterly, whatever it is, connect with your people. How are you feeling? How are we doing? How are we adding value to your desk right now? How are we adding value to your personal growth in your development? What do you want to see that we're not doing? What do you see us getting in your way? What resources do you have that we're not providing? How do you feel about your colleagues? Do you have all the tools that you need? And I'm not talking about pool tables and ping pong tables in the cafeteria. I'm talking about real stuff.
Annette Wehrli [00:26:11]:
And when we check in on a regular basis, and ideally, if we have an open communication culture, we're not going to get blindsided by someone leaving. So it's being human. It's figuring out what your offer is and what your value add is to your employees, your team members, and being prepared to do something about what you learn when you ask those questions.
Kortney Harmon [00:26:33]:
Action speaks louder than words.
Annette Wehrli [00:26:35]:
It sure does. And I think you've heard me say this before, but anybody who's worked with me has heard me talk about poking the bear, and I don't poke that bear. Listen, you got a sleeping bear and you go over there and go, hey, buddy, wake up. I'm going to ask you some questions. And then you don't do anything with that. You got an angry bear on your hands. You just woke him up. And every time we ask our team members for feedback or their thoughts or their input or their perspective on something, we have now just raised the bar tenfold for their expectation that we're actually going to do something about it simply because we asked the question.
Annette Wehrli [00:27:09]:
Just because we asked. Now all of a sudden, boom, elevated expectations. And if we don't do anything, we've actually done more damage by not following through on what we asked or heard than if we never asked the question in the first place. So I would say on any of the stuff that we're talking about today, if you're not willing and in a position to take action on these things, think about it longer before you poke the bear or take action on these things, because I want everybody to have a really successful experience, whether it's the leadership team or the team members. And that's a big one that gets in the way often.
Kortney Harmon [00:27:45]:
And I know more the search industry than any other industry since we've been here for so long. But it's. We oftentimes try to work through retention with clients and shine light on pieces that they're failing at. We oftentimes don't take an honest look and make sure we're doing that for ourselves. Or if we're doing it, we're only doing it on new hires. Oftentimes we take for granted, well, people are happy. It's good. No news is good news, and that's not necessarily the case.
Kortney Harmon [00:28:12]:
But I love that if you are not willing to take a step, don't ask the question because you're putting an unwanted light on something and making someone think about something that if you don't have time to solve it, it might not be a great idea to have that conversation.
Annette Wehrli [00:28:25]:
Absolutely.
Kortney Harmon [00:28:26]:
I love it. Okay, so we talked a little bit about communication and setting communication, but let's talk about some pitfalls in communicating for company goals. You're big on mission, vision, values, and maybe how leaders can improve in this area. Whenever it's talking about their vision, where they're going, what can they do better?
Annette Wehrli [00:28:47]:
Sure. So there's a theme in today's conversation about leadership team alignment. I just cannot say it enough. Whether your firm is five people or 200, it doesn't matter. You've got to have leadership alignment, particularly in setting goals. You talked earlier about personal agendas and bias, and no matter how large or small your firm is, those things exist. Bias and personal agendas exist. So when we're setting goals, we first of all have to make sure that the leadership team is aligned.
Annette Wehrli [00:29:18]:
And we're all approaching this with our own unique styles and our own unique perspectives, povs on the goal or whatever, but we're all moving forward saying, yeah, this is what we want to do and this is what we want to accomplish. There are obviously top down goals and there's bottom up and there's a combination of both. Right. What you choose is fine as long as you know what you're doing and you stay consistent with that. Right. So that people understand what's happening. I would say some of the pitfalls in this discussion on this topic are sometimes we're asking people to think strategically when they're not a strategic thinker. We're asking them to set goals when they work better when they're following someone else's direction than they are setting goals themselves.
Annette Wehrli [00:30:02]:
So we just have to make sure that we've got the right people setting the right goals in the right way. And really, another thing that I see is a focus on making goals strictly financial. Right? So I know we're in sales. Yes, I realize who I'm talking to, and I want everybody to make money. I want revenue to go crazy, I want profitability to be out the roof, but I don't want that to be all you talk about. And it's not healthy when that's all you talk about. So when we focus only on the financials. So here's an example.
Annette Wehrli [00:30:34]:
Many years ago, I was facilitating a workshop of some of the best offices in our space. Was, like, the top 1% of an organization that I was working with. I had 50 leaders in a room who were all crushing it and sitting at the top of their game. And we were talking about goal setting and strategy, and I was facilitating a workshop with them. And I asked this question at the onset of the session. In fact, your listeners can ask themselves this question right now, and that is, how are you defining success and or how are you defining what are your goals for the next x period of time? At that time, it was the end of the year. So, what are your goals for the following year? Write it all down. And I gave them, you know, ten minutes, whatever it was, and they were writing and writing and writing and figuring all this stuff out.
Annette Wehrli [00:31:18]:
And I said, great, put your pens down. And I want to ask you a second question. If you take the financials out of that goal, what's left? And I got some deer in the headlight responses. I literally had one person who got emotional because he realized that he had been stressed out about finances and the goals, and he was pushing, pushing finance, finance, finance so hard that someone just asking him the question of what else is important to you? He realized, whoa, I am so buried deep in this that I'm losing sight of the rest of my business. So plan financials all day long. Go for it. Set those goals. But let's think about culture, development, market impact, changing lives.
Annette Wehrli [00:31:59]:
Right. Influencing the community, whatever else is important to you, growing our people and not just making financial goals, that's tough.
Kortney Harmon [00:32:08]:
That's probably tough for people to hear.
Annette Wehrli [00:32:10]:
It is because we're in a sales business. What do you mean, don't focus on. I'm not saying don't have financial goals. I'm saying don't make just financial goals, because things. Here's the thing. The last couple of years, we all know, have been pretty rough in this space. Last year, this is 2024. Last year, people were producing 50% of what they thought they would.
Annette Wehrli [00:32:35]:
Less than that, even consistently. So I get it, okay? But if we're going to say to ourselves, the only way that we can be successful, the only way that we're going to define it, is if we hit x number. Well, what happens when that doesn't happen? What happens when some crazy thing comes into the story or you lose people or there's a health crisis, whatever it is, and you don't reach it? Are you suddenly now going to tell your team that they failed when they're working like dogs, working their tails off in a really tough economy? We would never say that. And so when we focus on money, we communicate to our teams all we care about here is money. Now, let me say this. Years ago, I had someone who I was coaching say to me, Annette, you're really big on culture and leadership, and I swear this is a true story. You're really big on all that stuff. But I don't care about that.
Annette Wehrli [00:33:25]:
I just want to make a ton of money. And I said, you know what? I respect your direct answer, and I respect the fact that you know yourself well enough to do that. But don't kid yourself thinking that you don't have a culture. You have a culture of people who are focused on nothing but money, and there's nothing wrong with that. If that's important to you, go do it. But you got to make sure that people are on board and they understand what your goal is, because some people want to go to work and make a difference. Some people want to have impact. Some people want to develop.
Annette Wehrli [00:33:53]:
Some people want promotability, etcetera. Yeah, they want to make money, but that's not the only thing. And so when we focus only on finances, we're sending a message that says that's the only thing that's important. So you can do whatever you want as long as you make money here. And I don't really think a lot of people want to live that way, but if you do do it, knock yourself out. Just know what you're trying to accomplish. Make sure that your team understands what that goal is and that they're on board with that, hired that obsessively. And make sure that you are constantly communicating that to your team, no matter what your goals are.
Annette Wehrli [00:34:25]:
But I would argue that there's a lot more than just financials to our goal setting.
Kortney Harmon [00:34:30]:
And honestly, you know, you said that people are working like crazy, working like dogs. It's gotten to the point that I've talked to offices. They're having need to put two to three times the amount of work into what they were having to do over the past few years. Now, granted, years prior may have been record years, but two to three times the effort to get only subpar results. So your focus does have to change, and everybody has their own motivators, and at least understanding that is at least, hopefully the first steps of knowing your people well enough.
Annette Wehrli [00:35:02]:
Yeah, it's a great point.
Kortney Harmon [00:35:04]:
I feel like we're talking a lot about emotional intelligence, so I'm going to flip the script a little bit. What are your thoughts on the importance of emotional intelligence and leadership? And really, how can our recruiting and staffing leaders cultivate this skill? How can they get better at it? Because, let's face it, it's something that we need to practice to really put into good execution.
Annette Wehrli [00:35:25]:
We do, and we've known for decades that EQ emotional intelligence outperforms IQ in leadership and many other roles, but particularly in leadership, that EQ outperforms IQ. Most days when I leave sessions workshops and I say, hey, all right, let's talk about leadership and what you think makes a good leader. Very few, like 2% of people say, wow, they just know so much. They're just an encyclopedia. Yeah. People like to have people who know knowledge as a leader, who've done what they've done, but they really start to make a difference in influencing people's development and their progression. And the names that you remember ten years ago or five jobs ago are the people that more likely were highly emotionally intelligent leaders that connected, resonated with you, motivated, inspired, understood you, and paid attention to who you were as a human, because most people want that kind of thing. So we know that it's critical, we know that it's important for those of people who, if you for some reason aren't aware of what it is, it's really made up of four components.
Annette Wehrli [00:36:30]:
The first is self awareness, self management, and regulation. That's the second one. The third component is social awareness. So getting outside of yourself and being aware of what's going on around you with people. And then the fourth component is relationship management. And some people are adding the extra component of decision making, because once you have all that information, now it's what do you do with it? Right? So that's really what we're talking about. Some people might roll their eyes and say, that's too soft, and that's okay. If you don't want to do that, you don't have to.
Annette Wehrli [00:37:00]:
But the people that do are the ones that you can do. A Google yourself on the data here. I'm not going to pepper you with data because it's just ridiculous. Outside the access to information and data about this is wild. So it's retention, reduced absenteeism, more tenure, more promotability, stronger sales, more robust culture. I mean, it's just endless. The implications and the benefits of EQ are endless. And so I won't try to convince you of that.
Annette Wehrli [00:37:27]:
You can do that yourself. But how do we build it? It really starts with our ability, our willingness to start by looking internally and saying, how am I doing? How do I impact people? What impact do I have on people? If I were to come to your team and say, hey, tell me about John. What kind of a leader is he and how do you think he can relate? Is he approachable? Does he know how to connect with you? What would your team say if I were to ask you that question? What we say is one thing, but what our team says about us is a very different thing. And that, honestly, is more truth than what we tell ourselves. Ask your team, reach out to someone you trust. Again, this is a poke the bear thing. Absolutely poke the bear topic here. Do not start investigating how people feel about your emotional intelligence if you're not willing to do something about it.
Annette Wehrli [00:38:17]:
That's a burning question to ask people. But you can take courses, you can read books, you can go to therapy. I don't know what you need to do, but there are a ton of resources out there. But it really starts with looking at yourself and assessing the impact that you're having. Simple things like reviewing the day. Let's get practical. At the end of the day, spend 1020 minutes just saying, what happened today? How did I handle it? What did I think before I handled it or didn't handle it? And what impact did I have on people around me today? And those are just some good places to start. And what am I avoiding? What am I walking into? How do people react when I do this or that? And you'll start to get a better sense of it.
Annette Wehrli [00:38:56]:
But it really helps when you can connect with other people and ask them their opinion to give you an outside perspective, because we're biased.
Kortney Harmon [00:39:03]:
Just a little.
Annette Wehrli [00:39:04]:
Just a little.
Kortney Harmon [00:39:05]:
I'm pretty great. What are you talking about in that? No. So let's talk about. Let's start. Wrap up. I only have two more questions for you as we think about all of this information. There's a lot, there's a lot of facets to leadership. There's a lot of self reflection.
Kortney Harmon [00:39:19]:
There's a lot of pieces that you had mentioned. What are some of the best things that you've seen some organizations do over the years that you would encourage teams to take action on? Today?
Annette Wehrli [00:39:30]:
I would say understanding who you want to hire, understanding your own firms, account, executive coordinators, whatever you call people in your office, understanding your Persona, which means understanding your culture. So when you really understand your culture, you understand your Persona, and they hire very protectively to culture. That's a huge win. When people are just like, hey, this is who we are. We don't apologize for it. We love it. And it's really important that when we let people into the house, that there are people that are going to respect this space and are going to really embrace and run with what we do when they do that. Wow.
Annette Wehrli [00:40:08]:
I mean, the roof just comes off because there's no stopping a team that's really aligned. Right? So number one is culture, and hiring to that culture and protecting it. Sales can be serious. It can be intense. And I think one of the best things people can do is have fun. Have fun, make this an adventure. Make this something that people can collaborate with and really enjoy the process and have fun with it. Most people don't grow up wanting to be a recruiter, so we have to find a way to introduce it to them and help them understand the opportunity that is offered to them in this industry.
Annette Wehrli [00:40:45]:
It is a phenomenal industry. And when we have fun and we invite people into it and provide structure and freedom, those are two really important things. We can really start to have an impact on how our firm is impacting people and the impact that we as leaders are having as well. So I would leave it there.
Kortney Harmon [00:41:06]:
I love it. Those are two good places to start. I think my last serious question, and then I have two other ones. If you look at leadership and you look at qualities, what do you think the most crucial qualities are for? Success and leadership?
Annette Wehrli [00:41:22]:
Yeah. So if you ask ten people this question, you would get, like, 14 answers, right? So the list is. I equate this to the NFL commentators and or like season predictors. You know, those conversations that football season just opened up a couple last week, this weekend, and these guys will spend four and a half hours, season hasn't even started and these guys are predicting that Green Bay, my team, by the way, is going to win. Their year's record is going to be this and that, wins and losses, and they start doing it before a game has even happened. I love answering these kinds of questions, but the reality is we have no idea what's about to happen. We just learned that a pandemic can hit us anytime and the rankings of what matters most change, just like football does every single week week. So I'm happy to put these things out there.
Annette Wehrli [00:42:11]:
They are by no means exhaustive and they're in no particular order, but I would say to be students of topics outside of search. So learn, listen, watch, read, connect with people that don't do anything about what we do. Listen to them talk about business, about economy, about relationship building. Right? So be students of topics beyond sales. And just a sidebar. I just have a personal bias because I come from the consulting world and I think like a consulting person. But if there's any single topic that I believe will help a recruiter become more successful, yes, I want you to learn sales. Yes, I want you to master negotiation and overcoming objections and all those good things.
Annette Wehrli [00:42:53]:
I love all that, and it's necessary. But if you really want to take it over the top, study consulting, become a consultant, not a salesperson. And it will. I've seen it catapult your career. So back to the leadership component. I think a second thing that's really important is courage. We're moving into. We are already in rough waters, and it takes a lot of courage to make tough decisions, to make exciting decisions, and to influence people with serious intention.
Annette Wehrli [00:43:22]:
I would also say curiosity and pairing with that is adaptability and willingness to unlearn. If there was anything that I would say, it's the willingness to unlearn. Because when we are humble and teachable and curious and we unlearn the things that we know are getting in our way, then we are just completely setting ourselves up for success and we can absolutely move forward and accomplish great things.
Kortney Harmon [00:43:53]:
I love the last one. That's very, very makes me think so. Yeah, I love that. This wasn't a question that I prepped you with. So I'm going to go off script.
Annette Wehrli [00:44:03]:
Yeah.
Kortney Harmon [00:44:03]:
Any books, podcast things, consulting people you love, which I already know. I know someone that you like just from being personally knowing you. Talk to me about anything to follow. Looking outside of staffing and recruiting, what should people listen to? Read any suggestions?
Annette Wehrli [00:44:20]:
Sure. Well, if you want to get into consulting, if you want to learn more about consulting, the absolute father of all consulting is Peter Block, who wrote the book flawless Consulting. We used it in grad school long time ago. However, he's updated that thing 27 times since then. I'm telling you, it is the go to resource for all things consulting. And it's about your mindset is really what that's about. I would also recommend reading about growth mindset. Is it Carol Dweck? I'm going off the cuff here.
Annette Wehrli [00:44:52]:
I think that's her last name. She's phenomenal. You want to talk about emotional intelligence? Obviously, everybody knows Brene Brown. You can listen to her podcasts. Oh, you just hit the magic word. Give me a second. I got to pull up my phone because I am telling you, I am a voracious, voracious podcast listener, and I. Let me get there.
Annette Wehrli [00:45:16]:
Coaching for leaders is a really good podcast. I'll be honest. Getting outside of the scope of business. I love to listen to this american life from NPR. They talk about really unique. They tell stories. We all need to know how to tell stories. Another one for that is the moth.
Annette Wehrli [00:45:33]:
Listen to the moth. It'll help you learn how to tell stories.
Kortney Harmon [00:45:36]:
I love it.
Annette Wehrli [00:45:37]:
It's like people who get up on a mic, open mic, and they tell stories, but it's like Ted talk, but a very different lens. It's not business oriented. I listen to L and D. There's one called beyond the to do list. There's a really good. I'm a brain geek, so if people get into that and how your brain helps you at work, there's a podcast called your brain at work. Really good. So I'm kind of all over the board in terms of what I listen to.
Annette Wehrli [00:46:02]:
And obviously, you listen to Chris Voss, Anthony Reno. So there's just a myriad of things to listen to. There's so many good resources out there. Follow Gallup, the Gallup organization. There's just a hundred things I could tell you about. So that was way more than I.
Kortney Harmon [00:46:20]:
Anticipated you giving me. I wrote some things down for myself. All right. So for our listeners that are, like, listening, be like, Annette, this is me. This is who I need to be. I need to talk more with you. Obviously, you've launched your consulting firm. Talk to me about who are you working with today? What are things that you can highlight that your wheelhouse.
Kortney Harmon [00:46:39]:
Like, hey, you should come talk to me if, because we'll put your consulting company and your LinkedIn in the profile so for the show notes so they can reach out to you at any time.
Annette Wehrli [00:46:47]:
Fantastic. I would love to help. I would love to just talk with people about what's on their mind and what they're trying to work through. So you can find me at effectivity consulting. I know it's a funky word, but effectivity, just like it sounds. Consulting is my website, and I'm also on LinkedIn. Just check me out there. I intentionally stay off of X or Twitter and all that stuff.
Annette Wehrli [00:47:15]:
It just is a distraction to me. So I'm not out at those places right now. And the types of things that I like to help people work through are this, organizational effectiveness, mission, team structure, performance, culture, respect, communication, things that affect your business on a macro level. And then I also have a very serious passion for leadership development and leadership excellence. And I've also done a lot of career coaching in the industry and out of the industry. So those are my really three main buckets, and I would love to talk to anybody who wants to explore any of this stuff further.
Kortney Harmon [00:47:48]:
I love it. Thank you so much for joining me. As always, I love talking to you, and I love your insights. So thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to chat with me.
Annette Wehrli [00:47:58]:
Thank you. It's been an honor to talk with you, and truly, I just want to give you a plug. Kortney, what you are doing in the industry of search is phenomenal. This podcast is listened to by so many people, and you're bringing experts from very varied lenses, which is what I love about it. And you ask really good questions. So thank you for your courage, your leadership, your modeling, and the way that you inspire all of us. Truly, it's a joy to know you. I'm so glad that we met, and I'm just really honored to be able to spend time with you today.
Kortney Harmon [00:48:32]:
You're wonderful and for our listeners. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of the full desk experience. Again, Annette, a huge thank you for sharing your expertise, your passion with us today. I know we talked about bias. I am biased, but I really think that Annette's understanding of leadership organizational effectiveness really offers an invaluable lesson for anyone in any industry, especially ours. So if you found today's conversation as inspiring as I did, be sure to connect with Annette on LinkedIn from the show notes. Follow her on efectivity consulting, check her out, and as always, thank you for tuning in. Tune in for more episodes as we continue to explore the pulse of the staffing and recruiting world.
Kortney Harmon [00:49:15]:
Until next time, keep leading with a purpose and driving success. I'm Kortney Harmon with Crelate. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Industry Spotlight, a new series from the full desk experience. New episodes will be dropping monthly. Be sure you're subscribed to our podcast so you can catch the next industry spotlight episode and all episodes of the full desk experience here or wherever you listen.