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Each episode of the podcast Personal Kosmology traces one seeker's journey: the beliefs they inherited, the experiences that broke them open, and the questions they're still living.
I'm drawn to people who didn't just change their minds, but rebuilt their lives around what they found.
In their stories, you may recognize your own.
Alexandre Tannous: When a huge
bomb would fall on the building or
close to the building, the sound,
the intensity, the, the shockwave-
Devin Martin: Yeah
…
Alexandre Tannous: would stop time almost.
I grew up in Beirut, Lebanon, and when
the war started, I was nine years old.
Always on guard, always
waiting for things to happen.
I vaguely remember things
before the age of 16.
That's what- Really?
… trauma does, extended trauma.
Our consciousness is shaped by physics,
especially the physics of sound.
Devin Martin: Did you have an initial
profound experience of healing via
sound, where you recognized that some
of these childhood war experiences were-
Oh, yeah … actually being addressed?
Do you remember how that
came into your awareness?
Alexandre Tannous: Absolutely.
Yeah, I started remembering
things I didn't know I knew.
The only way to survive and
heal is to relabel the past.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: To relabel any
form of suffering that any person
can go through as a rite of passage.
Love and harmony are the most important
forces in the universe, and these were
consistently the most life-changing,
most transformative, the deepest
mystical states that I've experienced.
Far greater than anything horrific
and terrifying that I've lived
through, and there's a lot of that
Devin Martin: Mm-hmm.
Welcome to The Personal
Kosmology of Alexandre Tannous.
I'm your host, Devin Martin, and we're
here with my friend Alexandre, who,
uh, I would say… I was gonna say,
I, I often start with how people know
you in the public eye, and I feel like
one of the reasons why I'm excited
for this conversation is because
you tend to stay below the radar.
Mm-hmm.
You have done some, some high-profile
things, but by and large, for most
of your career, I feel like you've
just had your head down and been
working very hard, doing amazing
things, not gathering the spotlight.
And, and what I love about this podcast
is I can kind of build up a spotlight
with some people who have a big Instagram
following or something and then shine
that spotlight on someone like you.
Um, and so if people do know who you
are, you're an ethnomusicologist, uh,
a sound therapist, a sound researcher.
Um, most pe- the people who introduced
me to you talked about sound meditations.
Alexandre Tannous: Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: Um, and so I wanna help
people understand what all that means.
I, I think of you as somebody
who sees the world through sound.
Maybe somebody who understands sound
on a deeper level than anyone I've ever
met in my life, I would say definitely.
Um, and helps other people experience
sound and understand the importance
of sound in their lives through
both lectures and experiences.
Um, but what I wanna do is go back and
understand how you became this very
interesting human being you are today.
Mm. Um, and what I try to do in this
podcast is explore someone's life
through three chapters, which is
what you were born into, the moments
that broke that apart or transformed
that, and then where you are today
and the edges of your thinking.
And so I want to use your life
story as a jumping-off point- Mm
to explore spirituality and
philosophy and science and all
the things you love talking about.
So take us back.
What was it like growing up
in the Tannous household?
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Well, thank you, first of all, for
inviting me to do this podcast interview,
and I love, uh, the flow already.
Um, I grew up in Beirut, Lebanon, and when
the war started, I was nine years old.
Mm. We lived close to the city
center in Beirut, and, um, when
the civil war, uh, broke out, um-
Yeah, that was dramatic change in,
uh, in my life and our family's
life and everyone we knew.
Um, and that probably is the central
thing that shaped my life growing up in 14
years of war eventually, before- You were
Devin Martin: there for 14
Alexandre Tannous: years of war
14 years, yes, and very close to
the green line, which was the-
Mm … dividing line between
former east and former west Beirut.
The war was portrayed to be civil
war, war between Christian and
Muslim, but it was not really that.
It was a lot of interference from the
outside, as it's always plays as a game.
Um, and, um, it was, uh, quite an
extended rite of passage - Yeah
that shaped my life immensely,
got me to discover things as well.
Uh, I was fortunate that I was… I
started playing music at an early age,
which helped me a lot to deal with the
chaos and the insanity and the terror.
Devin Martin: I, I just imagine as
someone who's so highly attuned to sound,
the sounds of war to be so dramatic
and traumatic, and I think of trauma as
something that rewires the nervous system.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes, absolutely,
especially when very loud exposure,
uh, explosion happens, bomb
falling, you know, 'cause civilian
areas were bombed all the time.
It was not just military with military.
It was militia war.
It was chaos.
Everything goes.
When huge bomb would fall on the building
or close to the building, the sound,
the intensity, the, the shockwave- Yeah
It stopped time almost.
You feel that the moment was frozen, and
you were suspended in a state where none
of your senses were amassing the data.
It was all converging to
one, a total synesthesia.
And, uh, it's when your nervous
system becomes exposed to these
loud explosion that shakes you and
terrify you, that's huge shaping, but-
Devin Martin: And, and I have
to also imagine that every other
moment was potentiated by the
possibility of that happening.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
Devin Martin: So your nervous system
is never- Always on guard … fully
allowed to, to feel safe and at rest.
Always on guard.
You're going to be a little
bit hypervigilant, right?
Alexandre Tannous: Absolutely.
Always on guard, always waiting
for things to happen, and, uh-
Devin Martin: And did
your family talk about it?
Like, how is the war spoken about and
the possibility of something exploding
spoken about, or was it just- Oh
carry on?
Alexandre Tannous: No.
Well, yeah, that, but it was a constant
talk about that, about how to be
careful and how to survive, and that
would make it, make you hypervigilant-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Alexandre Tannous: even more so than your
autonomic nervous system because there's
a nurturing and support to that and, uh,
encouragement from everyone around you
'cause everyone's doing the same thing.
But, um-
Devin Martin: And, and was there a
spiritual background or a religious
background to your family or your town-
Alexandre Tannous: Yes … in, in
Devin Martin: Beirut- Yes … that,
that you were, uh, aligned with?
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Well, my parents were, uh, part
of the Greek Orthodox Church,
but we were not so religious.
We did attend, um, you know,
ce- ceremonies and went to
church on, on big holidays.
But, um, and, uh- The spiritual
aspect arose with the situation-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Alexandre Tannous: and the state of
surrender, and especially when I became
interested in meditation and spirituality
at age 14 to alleviate the trauma.
I started with transcendental meditation.
Um-
Devin Martin: Do you remember
how that came into your life?
Alexandre Tannous: Yes, very much so.
It was a friend of my older sister
who would… was practicing it, and
sometimes she would come and stay with us.
They would help each other on projects
in interior design and stay up all night.
And, uh, when she would stay with us,
she would go to the bedroom and lock
the door, say, "Please don't bother
me, I'm, I'm gonna meditate for- Right
20 minutes." And, and I started asking
her question about meditation and this
way of meditating, 'cause transcendental
meditation is very specific.
And, uh, she saw that I was
interested, and she said, "If
you're interested further, I can
introduce you to my teacher, and
he can teach you the practice."
Devin Martin: And so
you were given a mantra?
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
I went there.
And then started
Devin Martin: using it.
Alexandre Tannous: Got the
introduction, gave me the mantra,
and we practiced it in front of the
altar the first time, him and I.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: And it was the
wildest experience of my life, just
to go into an unordinary state of
consciousness that I've never visited,
the extent where mind is blank.
And he guided me in this, and he
was meditating next to me, and of
course, that amplifies, um, the, the,
the experience through entrainment.
And, uh, I was fascinated by all of this.
And you
Devin Martin: seem to have
had an affinity for it.
I mean, not everyone- Yes … has
a profound experience-
Alexandre Tannous: Yes
…
Devin Martin: right away.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
I had an affinity because I
was introspective as a kid.
Um-
Devin Martin: Were you already a musician?
Alexandre Tannous: I was a musician.
Uh, I was in a deep, quite often
in deep contemplative state.
I was, uh- Mm … um, yeah,
introspective and self-reflective,
um, into contemplative practices, deep
listening to music, playing music,
um, meditation eventually, and deep
Devin Martin: me- What
was your first instrument?
Alexandre Tannous: Uh, guitar.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: Guitar, and then
I started playing other instruments.
Bass guitar, flute,
and singing, and piano.
Devin Martin: And to give people
perspective today, do you have any
idea how many instruments you play?
Alexandre Tannous: No.
Devin Martin: I mean, I, I've been to your
home, and it's hundreds of instruments-
Mm-hmm … for sure in your home.
Alexandre Tannous: Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: Um, and my understanding
is you, I've seen you be proficient
in everything you've picked up.
Alexandre Tannous: Well,
I, um, it's my love.
I, uh, this interest continued, uh,
throughout my later teenage years, and
we immigrated to the States, my parents,
and I, uh, started studying music.
Uh, eventually did four degrees
back to back in music over 12 years.
Devin Martin: So, so
tell me that transition.
Did you from a young age say,
"This is going to be my career.
Music will be my
Alexandre Tannous: future"?
I felt strongly, yes, that this
is not just temporary fad or
Devin Martin: And did you have a vision?
Like, does that mean
being a performing artist?
Does that mean being an academic?
Does that mean-
Alexandre Tannous: I didn't know.
I just wanted to be in music.
Mm-hmm.
And that's what I ended up happening,
is that I, when I started studying,
I double majored in music theory and
composition, but I studied performance
deeply and conducting, and I played
different instruments mostly- Was
Devin Martin: that bass
at that time you were
Alexandre Tannous: playing?
Contrabass, yes.
Contrabass, yeah.
Double bass, singing, playing piano,
exploring other instruments, studying
composition seriously, music theory,
and becoming deeply interested in music
history and musicology, conducting.
I sang in early music ensembles.
I played in classical
orchestra and jazz ensemble.
I played chamber music.
I sang in early music ensemble, which
is dedicated to, uh, late medieval
renaissance and early baroque music.
It's called Early Music, with a
capital E. Um, and, uh, yeah, uh,
after that… Well, in my junior
year, my teachers started giving me
students that they couldn't teach,
so I started exploring teaching- Hmm
privately, different instruments and
theory, composition, um, ear training,
vocal diction for opera singers, French
and German, and I loved so much teaching,
and I thought, "Well, maybe a master's in
music education would be great." And- So
Devin Martin: that was the second degree.
Alexandre Tannous: That
was the second degree.
And then as I was studying this, I,
uh, this is at Columbia, I became
interested in ethnomusicology, so I,
I took a seminar in ethnomusicology.
Devin Martin: And tell people real
quick if they don't know what that
Alexandre Tannous: means.
Yes.
It's a field that studies music as
a sociocultural phenomenon, and the
ultimate goal is to understand human
beings by studying culture through music.
Devin Martin: Hmm.
Alexandre Tannous: So it's kind of
like close to anthropology of music.
So up until that point, I'd been
studying things directly related
to music, uh, music making and
understanding as people know it, like
composition, conducting, performing,
and pedagogy, but, and music history.
But now it was the more humane aspect and
the impact on humanity- Hmm … impact
on people and why people depend
on music, why, uh, music is played
everywhere all the time, and what do we
intend to express or get out of that.
So it was focused on the human
being, but through musical behavior.
So that's the academic side of music.
Devin Martin: Right.
Alexandre Tannous: But
that opened a whole realm.
Devin Martin: But knowing you now, I have
to imagine- … that lit a fire in you.
Like, I don't know if you knew that
was gonna be as exciting, but did
that… Had you always been thinking
about the broader context of music,
or did this just light something new?
Alexandre Tannous: Both.
Devin Martin: Both.
Alexandre Tannous: I was always
thinking, but I just didn't know
that can go to that magnitude-
Devin Martin: Hmm
Alexandre Tannous: and that colorfulness
and that, uh, eclecticism and,
uh, and richness that would, uh,
broaden the scope immensely- So
Devin Martin: Did you have a
thesis, a master's thesis then?
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
Well, I ended up by, um, finishing
this master's in music and music
education, and I started the
PhD program in ethnomusicology.
So my second degree was an- another MA
in ethnomusicology, and then did an MPhil
in ethnomusicology and got to a level
where I, uh, passed my orals comprehensive
exams and wrote, uh, of course, MA
thesis and proposal, doctoral proposal.
But I got to something,
a level called ABD.
I did all requirements but dissertation.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Alexandre Tannous: I had lost interest by
then in, in ac- Mm … in academia, and
it was, you know, full of problems and
power control and, and some inefficient
things that got in the way of teaching
and dealing with music in a direct way.
But also at that point, I had been,
because of the exposure to the variety
of different things that I studied
and played, different musical styles,
periods, genres, and, and cultures that
I became exposed to doing comparative
work And learning about different ancient
musical systems that are remarkably
different than the Western one that
I was focused on, focused on studying
classical music, different periods.
Classical lower C is all of these
things, but capital C means one period.
Devin Martin: Oh,
Alexandre Tannous: okay.
After there's Baroque, and then a little
period called Rococo music, and then
Classical period, like Haydn and Mozart-
Devin Martin: Yeah
…
Alexandre Tannous: early
Beethoven, and then Romantic per-
and post-Romantic, et cetera.
So classical music
means… can be confusing.
Um, but jazz too, I was playing jazz
and, and had studied it, and in the
past played pop and rock and bluegrass
and blues and all sorts of stuff.
But my central interests were
classical music and jazz.
But now with study of ethnomusicology
became a s- study of music of
different cultures, and focus on
area of specialization that is
called West Asia and Academia.
That's classical Arabic, Turkish, and
Persian classical musics- Mm … which had
a lot of influence on the development of
Indian classical music, the raga system,
Armenian music, music of Western China,
the mugham system in Azerbaijan and
Central Asia, and westward to, to the Near
East, Middle East, and, uh, North Africa.
So that's the maqam system, microtonal
model that has notes between the
black and white keys on the piano
or the octave as- Right, like
Devin Martin: most Western
Americans are used to 12
Alexandre Tannous: notes.
12. And not only 12, but quantized 12.
That's equal temperament, which
castrated the power of harmony.
Devin Martin: And, and so this is
a big thing you've taught me, and
when you lead a sound meditation,
you choose your instruments and your
recordings extremely carefully- Mm-hmm
to… And my… And you, you can
explain this, but my sense is the way
we've decided to tune instruments,
to make it easy to change keys, for
example, has made it so instruments
don't resonate well with each other
and with nature at a very subtle level.
Alexandre Tannous: Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: And so everything's
slightly disharmonious.
And certain instruments, like
you play singing bowls and gongs-
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah
Devin Martin: all the overtones are
perfectly aligned with the fundamental
note, which has a healing potential-
The found- … for the body.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes, absolutely.
Devin Martin: And do you remember
when you discovered this?
'Cause I feel like this has changed
the trajectory probably of the music-
Yeah … that you're oriented towards.
Alexandre Tannous: Immensely.
When I started realizing these
differences, that there are musical
cultures that have more than 12
tones per octave, um, Indian system
is 22 tones, srutis they call them.
In classical Persian and
Arabic musics are 24 tones.
Turkish is 53.
If you go to Byzantine chants,
s- the chants used in the Greek
Orthodox Church, 72 tones per octave.
Oh, wow.
Not only that, but these
tones are not quantized.
So the problem is not just 12 in the
Western octave- These became 12 quanta,
it's equidistant, where each half step,
that's the distance between white key
and adjacent black key on a piano,
or one fret up on a guitar or fret
down, that's the smallest step in the
Western octave, um, in Western music.
Uh, these tones became 100 cents each.
A cent is a unit used for logarithmic
measurement of sound, where if you go to
these other musical systems, they're not
quantized, and they have notes between
the black and white keys of a piano.
These are called microtones.
But when you play musical piece,
uh, on such a mode or raga, it
resonates with you more, and this
music is often perceived music for
deep contemplation, introspection.
That when you become exposed to such a
scale or mode over extended period of
time and you're applying deep listening,
judicious, intentional listening, uh,
you go into a non-ordinary state of
consciousness based on the intervallic
structure of that raga, and that's a
known thing in India and all of these
countries that use the modal system.
And it's mind altering.
Uh-
Devin Martin: Is it accurate to
say that if you play a string on a
guitar- … it is like playing, a
single note is also like a chord- It's
c- … because you have the fundamental
tone and the overtones, right?
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And so
those are all perfectly-
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: in sync with each
other 'cause it's created from…
But then when you play a second string
playing a chord, it's slightly out of
tune- Mm-hmm … with the first string,
and so you're creating this m- many
frequency resonance that is slightly,
maybe most people don't notice it-
Alexandre Tannous: Yes
…
Devin Martin: but on a cellular
level, on some- Your body
knows … unconscious level, it is-
Alexandre Tannous: Mm-hmm
Devin Martin: throwing us out
of harmony with ourselves.
Alexandre Tannous: Even on the microtubule
levels, these are the tiniest structures
in us, two to three nanometers wide.
That's one-millionth of a meter.
Microtubules are perceived to be essential
in the transduction of consciousness as
Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose
have done studies on this, that there's
a quantum vibration in our cells and
neurons with, uh, whenever there's a
non-equal tempered scale being played.
So that means we're
creatures of resonance.
Resonance is the most impactful
force of the universe.
That's what people call vibration.
Mm-hmm.
So when you pluck a string, that string
vibrates as a whole Which gives you
the fundamental tone, also vibrates
in division of two or three or four
or five to infinity, and each time it
does that, it gives you a different
harmonic, and that's the multiplication
of the fundamental frequency.
Devin Martin: Right.
Alexandre Tannous: So if you multiply
the fundamental frequency, say, 100
hertz by two, you get 200 hertz.
That's the first harmonic
or the second partial.
Multiply it by three, you
get the next harmonic up.
And multiply it by four, you
get the next harmonic up.
And that stacks up a series of
frequencies that can never be changed.
If you're on C, that first harmonic
is always an octave higher C, and the
second harmonic is a fifth above from
that C, so octave and a fifth from
fundamental, and you keep going higher
and higher, but intervals shrink.
And these are all mathematical constants.
You cannot change them.
So it's a series of infinite
possibilities bound together by a
series of infinite mathematical ratios.
So harmony is a concept that
comes out of mathematics.
Pure harmony is audible
mathematical ratios.
The equal temperament
was based on taking the octave and
dividing it into 12 equidistant half
steps, then you have 100 cents each.
Then you quantize everything, so you
created a different grid than the grid
that nature, the universe gave us,
that is called the harmonic series,
which not only musicians study, but
physicists, acousticians, mathematicians.
It's a very, very serious
level of mathematics.
Incomprehensible.
And that has a lot of ties to
esoteric things and the idea of God
and the creation of the universe
and how word creates the universe
and sound creates universe, which
w- all religions, all Eastern
philosophies tell you in first thing.
That gave us some advantages, the equal
temperament, and created the harmony
that we now use, stacking up thirds
on top of each other, minor thirds and
major thirds, but it came at a cost
The, the curious thing that wherever
you are in the world, any person working
with a field such as sound therapy,
using sound as a therapeutic modality,
they always gravitate to intuitively
choosing instruments that play harmonics,
whether they're didgeridoos, shakers and
rattles in a very basic way, or better
instruments made out of metallurgy,
especially combination of tin and
copper, which is bronze, specific ratio.
Yeah,
Devin Martin: like the Tibetan singing
Alexandre Tannous: bowls.
Singing bowls, gongs, disks, bells,
chimes, everywhere, and that's
what people use now and what people
call sound healing and sound bath.
Devin Martin: And there's a purity, but
more importantly, a coherence, an internal
Alexandre Tannous: coherence
Devin Martin: to the sound.
Coherence,
Alexandre Tannous: purity, resonance,
reharmonization, and that creates
quieting the mind instantaneously,
even to a person who doesn't know what
meditation is and never practiced or
has hard time turning off the dialogue.
Devin Martin: And you, in my first
sound meditation with you, you're,
you're known for your lectures.
You will, before you play music and ask
people to enter into altered states,
you will talk to them about sound and
about how to listen differently, and
the, the thing that really stuck in my
head was the term sympathetic resonance.
Mm-hmm.
Which as I understand it means when
you're playing an instrument in a
room, and let's say it's vibrating at
400 hertz, anything else in the room
that's capable of that vibration-
Alexandre Tannous: Or
anything related to that
Devin Martin: Or, or related to
it- Based on the harmonic series
… that can be stimulated by it-
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: will also vibrate.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And so I am vibrating
on many different levels with the
instruments, and so if the instruments are
not perfectly attuned to nature, they're
throwing me out of sync with nature.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Exactly.
So because of the chaotic period that
humans are going through, and so many
crazy things happening in the world and
internally and on so many levels, huge
transitional period humanity is going
through, uh, I wasn't surprised, and
I ex- anticipated this when I started
researching s- sound, spirituality,
consciousness, inner capacities we have
within us, and, uh, psychedelic research
and many things that have helped me
along the way in, in my healing journey.
Uh, 26 years ago I started this
research, I knew that sound
is gonna become a major force.
And about 15 years later maybe, 14, 15,
sound healing started becoming a thing,
or sound bath- Mm … this experience.
Devin Martin: All right, so take us
back, 'cause I have to imagine there,
there was one point when you were go-
going along this journey to PhD when
becoming an academic was opening up to
you, and your life could have meant doing
research, teaching, being in academia.
When you decided not to complete
your doctorate, what did you think
you were gonna do to make a living?
Alexandre Tannous: I had
started, uh, doing this research.
I started the research back then,
this interest which contributed
to, um, me parting ways with
academia and Mother Columbia.
Um, at that time I was a practicing
musician, composer, conducting, playing
different gigs in New York City, um, and,
uh, learning a lot and teaching and, and
l- loving researching and just swimming in
the ocean of music for many years, and I
didn't know how to get out of university.
Uh, 12 years is really dr- drastic thing.
Yeah.
But I was loving it, and I could
have gone for another 12 years, but
because, because there was a different
calling And different focus, different
interests started rising and there
was an opposition, and not so much
support for these interests, 'cause
they were considered to be woo-woo
or, "No, we don't do this here,"
or, you know, "It's too weird."
'Cause, you know, there's a
certain level of conformity that
they ensure in any institution-
Yes … especially Ivy League.
Uh, but
Devin Martin: I- And, and were the
sound meditations starting to come
onto your radar at that point?
Alexandre Tannous: Y- y- yes.
Yeah, I was using these instruments
and connecting the dots differently if
caused by m- the short-term field work
that I eventually have done over 40
countries studying how people use music
in specific rituals and w- how they
talk about them, and doing comparative
study with other cultures to connect the
dots differently and to realize a lot
of these things that I'm talking about,
which many of them we didn't study.
Uh, with all these degrees I've done
in music study and many different
things, we didn't study any of that.
Devin Martin: And, and for people to,
who don't know what this means, for me, a
sound meditation is the most intentional
form of listening I've ever done.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
And so- And that's why I give a talk
…
Devin Martin: where there's a
talk, which I think is, uh, you
know, potentiating the space.
It's helping you kinda break the old
habits of listening and- Mm-hmm … open
up to a new way of listening.
And then generally, people are laying
on the floor wearing an eye mask, really
focus- like, you know, cutting out the
visual field to focus on the, the hearing.
Um, and then you are performing with a
large set of singing bowls, gongs, chimes.
I mean, I know some people get lucky
and you happen to have a piano or a
contrabass or, uh, other instruments.
And today, many people are experiencing
this, and they're playing with using
marijuana or different psychedelics,
or… But the point is, this
is an altered state experience.
However you get there, you can use pure
sound, you can use supplements, but the
point is to teach people to relate to
sound differently, and then give them
an experiential understanding of that.
Is that-
Alexandre Tannous: Yes
…
Devin Martin: right?
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
So the talk is to give context, is to
create the guardrails, to create the ethos
of the experience and focus on the pathos,
what emerges out of the experience, to
bring awareness to the value of judicious
listening, intentional listening, being
present, attentive, and becoming aware
of the dialogue in the head, the story.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: The monkey mind.
The mental diarrhea that's in our
head all the time, and to get to
know that really well and to learn
from that in a metacognitive state.
Basically metacognition is the
awareness of y- our thought
process, and the growth from that.
We learn a lot by observing that, whether
one is practicing mindfulness, meditation,
or contemplation, three different things.
So this non-ordinary state of
consciousness is part of understanding the
self and the nature of being, and how much
the inner world impacts the outer world.
Yeah.
Inner world, outer world's
one and the same, as above.
So below all of this has deep meaning.
It's a, it's a, an experience focused
on phenomenology and ontology, is
on the mechanics of the experience.
Who am I?
What am I?
Who's the one labeling?
How much do I identify
with the one labeling?
Are these the right labels?
How much of these labels that I
give, and we create reality out
of labels, naming things, out
of things happened in the past?
And my, uh, the way I arrived to
do this work with people, to create
what they need for them to gain back
agency to alleviate everyday life and make
a change by having a direct experience
and be changed by the direct experience
and to bring some of the learning from
that because of all the suffering that
I've gone through Over the years in doing
various forms of therapies, and of course
meditation, and the music I played and
listened, how seriously I took and came to
New York and all these incredible artists
that I'm sitting, you know, watching Dizzy
Gillespie play, and Chick Corea, or New
York Philharmonic, or Vienna Philharmonic,
or this incredible conductor.
You know, you become inspired, but part of
this inspiration is to apply the change.
And through what I learned, realized
that the only way to survive
and heal is to relabel the past.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: To relabel any
form of suffering that any person
can go through as a rite of passage.
That's not what we do.
We, uh, what we end up doing
is we go and seek help from
others, especially medications-
Devin Martin: Yeah
Alexandre Tannous: that address symptoms
and not causes, and we try to push
whatever is still lingering from past,
all these ribbons that we drag, into
burying them into subconscious mind.
And this material that's not processed,
unaddressed, starts to manipulate the
conscious mind and creates a mess.
As Carl Jung said, if we don't bring
the conscious into the unconscious,
creates a mess and we call that fate.
So I had to discover these things
to relabel the past, to create the
healing, and to label it as a rite of
passage where there is steadfastness,
resilience, endurance, tenacity that's
gained, perseverance, hope, compassion,
empathy, instead of self-medicating
with substances and trying to forget.
Devin Martin: So that's the alchemy.
Is there something about the non-verbal
music that you tend to orient people
towards that allows access to the
unconscious, to the things that
have been repressed or suppressed?
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
Yes.
Um, so I use these instruments, the
harmonic rich instruments to play to
quiet the mind because this pure harmony,
through the state of resonance that
it creates, uh, in our body, people
can look at my website and see what
the brain looks like when the person's
lying down, and electroencephalography
measuring the level of electricity in the
brain, what the monkey mind looks like.
And when the person is listening to
these instruments, how much all this
electrical activities, which are thoughts
and micro thoughts, diminish immensely.
So that sort of thing is happening on
a level of the brain, but also this
quieting down, the reharmonization
of the entire body because the
body is experiencing resonance,
not just auditorily, vibrationally-
Devin Martin: Yeah
Alexandre Tannous: through the
waves, because sound, we experience
sound auditorily and through
bone and tissue conduction.
Bone and tissue conduction is
how you experience your voice.
When you cl- block your ears
and speak, that's almost purely
bone and tissue conduction.
The sound's traveling through
your jaws and head skull,
cheeks, and neck and chest.
And part of it is auditory,
and part of it is bone tissue.
So when you are- Next to these
instruments, you start to feel the sound
in your body when your mind quiets down.
So this level of resonance is
shifting the noise to signal ratio.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: When you do that,
you disconnect from the monkey mind,
you disconnect from the default
mode network, the egoic mind.
What's in the default mode network?
Well, our education, parental
imprinting, society, culture,
religions as operating systems, your
beliefs, your profession, what you do
repeatedly, the way your brain is wired.
Everything that
Devin Martin: projects you
out of the present moment into
the past or the future, right?
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
But there seem to be
something beyond that.
Uh, this embodied knowledge within us.
I'm very influenced by different
schools, not only Eastern philosophies,
Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and, and
psychology, depth psychology, uh,
and, and other, you know, physics and
mathematics, but I'm deeply interested
in Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Neoplatonism,
Pythagoreanism, Hermeti- the ancient
mystery schools basically, and, uh,
Sufism and, and, and mystical states.
Um, there's a lot more to us than we
believe, but we're stuck in episteme.
Episteme is a different kind of knowledge
as the ancient Greek philosophers
talked about episte- the word, the
word epistemology comes from the study
of knowledge that is based on more
indoctrination education, where logic,
discernment, and reasoning are king.
Right.
Rule.
There's a different kind of
knowledge that I became interested
in from early on, which is gnosis.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: Embodied knowledge,
experiential knowledge, intuitive
knowledge, knowledge of the heart,
and that knowledge we all have
access to when the mind quiets down.
Devin Martin: Right.
Alexandre Tannous: When, when you are
in deep contemplative state, which
you can get to in normal sound bath
and sound healing, I like to call it
sound meditation, not a term I coined,
but it was around, but not used as
frequent- not used at all back then,
you know, very rarely, uh, 26 years
ago when I started this research
Practically no one was into this stuff.
I became interested in this because
following pursuing the power that music
has, that led me to the source, which
is pure harmony, the harmonic series-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Alexandre Tannous: which
has a deep esoteric nature.
We may talk about it later if you wish.
This is how I got to this, and when
I started experiencing it, I realized
that, whoa, this is a wormhole, not
a shortcut to what I can do with
transcendental meditation mantra.
Devin Martin: Right.
And so for a lot of people who
struggle to sit and meditate-
Alexandre Tannous: Mm-hmm
…
Devin Martin: the sound is a portal.
It is an assisting.
And, and I know you're very
clear you are not a healer.
Alexandre Tannous: No.
Devin Martin: You hate
to be called a healer.
Alexandre Tannous: No, no.
These terms are
Devin Martin: used flippantly.
You think people heal themselves, correct?
Alexandre Tannous: Yes, absolutely.
But
Devin Martin: the sound facilitates.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
So by calling it sound healing,
it's nebulous and confusing.
Uh, there's no accuracy to what is it
referring to, sound healing happens
from sound or from the sound healer?
Or is there something involved
for healing to happens?
I like to use words that
create the intended reality.
Sound healing is nebulous, confusing.
Sound bath doesn't mean much.
Sound meditation means
you're doing something.
Mm. Or sound journey,
you're involved in it.
Devin Martin: It's, yeah,
it's more empowering.
Alexandre Tannous: More empowering.
There's more phenomenology.
There's more accountability.
So that's why judicious listening,
listening with intention, pursuing deep
listening to not pursue what the mind
brings up as ideas, we stop pursuing and
exploring haphazardly and continuously,
and that is the problem with the mind.
It can have a life of its own, and
very often it's attached to stuff
happened in the past where people become
depressed or anticipate things in the
future where people experience anxiety.
Devin Martin: Did you have an initial
profound experience of healing via sound
where you recognized that some of these
childhood war experiences were- Oh, yeah
actually being addressed?
Did you remember how that
came into your awareness?
Alexandre Tannous: Absolutely.
Yeah, I started remembering
things I didn't know I knew.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: Because my mind
compartment- compartmentalized things
and pushed things away, and it's got me
to become dissociated and block stuff.
That's what the ego does
to keep us alive, right?
Right.
After having gone through trauma.
I mean, I vaguely remember
things before the age of 16.
That's what- Really?
… trauma does, extended trauma.
So this kind of work with s- spirituality,
breathwork, uh- Deep listening to these
instruments, deep listening to music,
um, and, and music performance as well.
Um, being in, uh, deep contemplative
states induced through deep listening to
music, not pop and rock music, which are
great, but music that takes you inwards.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Alexandre Tannous: Um, I was
able to access things I had
no idea that I lived through.
I completely forgot.
So it's a great way to go there
safely and see- I was gonna
Devin Martin: say, not, not only to
remember them, but to do so in a way
where your nervous system felt safe-
Alexandre Tannous: Felt safe
…
Devin Martin: and you weren't
re-traumatizing yourself by
Alexandre Tannous: reliving the horror
And not keep pushing them out of the way.
Because we don't just push them out of the
way, we hold onto them at the same time.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Alexandre Tannous: There's l- level of
histrionics that happens and the drama
when we are trying to deal with something
Huge beyond our ability to comprehend,
fathom, control, you know, unwind, and
is that we become so attached to it
and we work hard on pushing it away,
and we complain about its existence.
And a lot of our time, energy become
mismanaged in dealing with that, but
it doesn't go away This kind of inner
work that people now are seeking with,
you know, in ketamine therapy, in
various psychedelics, and there's been
a lot of studies around this, they
allow us to go into the realm of the
subconscious mind and safely, groundedly,
in an economous way, deal with what's
in there and not be afraid of that.
Because if we're afraid of this and
making a lot of effort to keep it at
bay, that is what gets people to become
full of anxiety or become addicts or
become depressed or have panic attacks
because of this mismanaged energy.
Noise.
A lot of noise.
Devin Martin: And it's interesting to
me that, you know, a lot of universities
are studying psychedelics, a lot
of, you know, a lot of people…
I, I'm yet to hear of a protocol
that doesn't include sound.
Alexandre Tannous: And, and
yes, but there's no great focus
on the role of sound and music
because it's misunderstood.
Devin Martin: They go
to Lower C, classical
Alexandre Tannous: or chord- Look, I
had four degrees in music, and I didn't
know the things that I didn't know
about music and sound, so don't expect
scientists and neuroscientists and
good-willing doctors and researchers
who love music like everyone else
to know what they need to know.
But that's why many shamans, and I've
done a lot of field work in shamanic
societies, in studying, comparing what
they talk about, what they perform, what
they sing, what is the value of that, in
context and in a comparative way if what
other people in a different continent do,
like the, the Bwiti in Gabon, for example,
and the iboga ritual versus the ayahuasca
rituals in the Amazon or versus the peyote
rituals in North America and Central
America and so on and so forth, and
various peoples working with different…
Yeah, I became deeply interested
in the role of music and
sound in shamanic societies.
Mm-hmm.
And this was my first exposure to
psychedelics, and I realized that
helped me immensely with my trauma
and allowed me to rewrite the
past, to relabel things, which is
alchemy, as we were saying before.
Devin Martin: How do you think
about the difference between
listening and performing?
I mean, I'm thinking of, like, I've
done ayahuasca in, uh, Brazil, for
example, and, you know, there are some
people who play music on a stereo.
There are some people who sing.
The, the shaman is actually attuned
to you and singing an icaro that,
which is coming up for you and maybe
even being spontaneously written.
But then I know also working with
you, you will have me do breathwork.
You will have me do
toning with my own voice.
Um, and it feels a little clumsy coming
from me, but it also feels like I j- I, I
can obviously resonate my own body better-
Alexandre Tannous: And
Devin Martin: it's liberating … y-
from the, from the inside.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
It's liberating.
It is quite liberating.
Just giving yourself the, the permission
to do that and not feel bashful
about it for no reason- Right … or
whatever reason that was ancient.
Maybe friend or sibling or, or neighbor
or school teacher said, "Don't sing.
Just be in the choir." You know, a lot
of people- Yeah … are traumatized
because of that, and, uh, that ends
up by blocking them, and they can't
Devin Martin: express themselves.
I, I, yeah, I've, I've always felt
blocked in my higher registers, I
think because I was taught to sing in a
register that wasn't natural for me, and
it was hard for me to hit the pitches.
And I learned like,
oh, I have a bad voice.
Alexandre Tannous: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: And then I started
singing in a lower register and finding
like, oh, this is actually feels good.
And it, I had to like work
through a lot of shame to do that.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but I'm also, I'm also curious
for you, like is, is there something
about being passive recipient
that is healing in listening-
Alexandre Tannous: The
ability- … differently
Devin Martin: than,
Alexandre Tannous: than- Yeah.
What's healing is surrender to
the present experience, and pay
attention, and act according to what
is emerging at that moment in time.
That's not something we do.
We come with an expectation.
We come with a plan.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Alexandre Tannous: We come, and we don't
surrender, allow, trust, and accept.
A mantra that I give to
people, acronym SATA, S-A-T-A.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: We're always
tight and uptight and holding back
and inhibitions, and it's good to
unlock this with movement, with
singing, with receiving sound.
When you do this, you're
reharmonizing the body.
You're bringing flexibility
and malleability.
Humans are encoded with the need to
use acoustics to unravel consciousness
and to teach us what to do with
anything, and that's why music is
part of any ritual, every ritual.
We're using one of the biggest powers
in the universe, physics, and, you
know, you don't have to understand-
anything about gravity or agree with
its existence or know how it works
and what's the force behind it for
it to work on all of us, right?
It's still gonna work on you.
That's the power of physics.
And but to really understand it,
physicists use mathematics, the
most sophisticated system to study
this thing on the most minute level.
So sound is a byproduct of these
mathematical ratios, and when you
start to study sound and s- waveforms,
you realize the realm of vibration,
pulsation, oscillation, energy,
and frequencies that Nikola Tesla
said, "If you want to understand the
universe, think vibration, energy, and
frequencies," and sound is all three.
So it shapes reality, and that's why all
religions, the first thing they put in
the book is the idea that sound is God.
God creates reality with words.
Genesis, on the first day, God
said, "Let there be light." Yeah.
Or the first sentence in the Gospel
of John, New Testament, in the
beginning was the word, and the word
was with God, and the word was God.
The word here is mistranslation to
logos, which is not only the word.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: It's field
phenomena, systems and patterns
and harmonies and all of that.
It's the, the, the, the
metadata aspect of the universe.
It's, uh- And in Eastern philosophies
and Hindu is the primordial aum
that created universe- Yeah … or
ancient Egypt universe was sung into
being, the Big Bang in the West.
And that is there on purpose to make
us take that thing seriously so that it
resonates with our subconscious mind,
and even if we don't know anything
about all the stuff we're talking
about, we take that book seriously.
Yeah.
It's the clickbait.
It's the most effective bli- clickbait.
Devin Martin: The music which draws us
Alexandre Tannous: in- The music-
to this sacred space … and the
idea that sound creates reality.
The word exists because
we have a language for it.
The sound creates the universe, Big Bang.
Devin Martin: And so from the time
you were leaving the university
system, were you starting to offer
this healing experience to people?
Alexandre Tannous: I was…
Yes, I started doing this work.
I was still performing classical and
jazz and conducting, composing, and
writing film music and various pieces,
commissions, and explorations, and
exploring the m- music scene in New York
City, s- its deepest levels, and traveling
and doing field work and teaching a, uh,
at Columbia and m- m- later at different
universities a little bit when I stopped
being full-time in academia, diminished
it to part-time, and eventually fizzled it
out and became full-time, uh, independent
researcher and did various things that
I love doing, but eventually modulated
more and more into sound therapy,
keeping the research going, and created
a practice out of my study, which is
still continuing, and I teach people.
And, and
Devin Martin: when you say research,
I, I mean, we're, we're not talking
about you alone in a laboratory-
Alexandre Tannous: No, no
…
Devin Martin: and publishing papers.
We're talking about you out in
the world- Yeah … using sound.
I was
Alexandre Tannous: so tired of that.
Big time.
I was doing some scientific studies
and taking measurement and just
to assure that, you know, there is
some repeatability, uh, I was…
The research was based on field work,
short-term field work I've done in
many countries, studying and being in
experiences and learning from these
experiences, working with people-
Of course, still reading books and,
and doing research in libraries,
but working with people and learning
from my work with people because
nobody taught me sound therapy.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: I taught myself,
connecting the dots differently, and
that's why I was able to arrive to a
lot of things that I'd learned, uh, from
having studied many things in music and
connecting dots between the Western world
and the non-Western world, and shamanic
societies' use of sound and music, and
in, in Sufism, and i- in, in, in Hinduism
and Buddhism, what are these chants about?
And why Tibetan, uh, Buddhist monks,
um, they sing in a guttural way?
What is overtone singing
about in Mongolia and Tuva?
And why polyrhythmic playing in West
African music and other Sub-Saharan
African music, and microtonal music
in Middle East, all of this started
connecting dots basically to arrive to
why sound therapy is so important and
it can serve humanity, and what is the
function of sound, music in Shamanism,
which many shamans tell you that the
song, the music is the real healer.
Devin Martin: Right.
Alexandre Tannous: They tell
you the Icaro is the one that
does the healing, not Ayahuasca.
If you want to choose one,
it would be the Icaro.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: Why?
Because it moves the
person's emotional state.
When you listen to a piece of
music, that piece of music or
speech has an ethos distinguishing
quality, character, personality.
And when we listen to it, especially
listen and apply deep listening, not
just hearing it, that creates pathos.
Pathos is a spectrum of reality
that's not just related to
pathology and something bad, but
it's from good to bad, everything.
Devin Martin: What do you hear
when you listen to pop music,
music on the radio today?
Alexandre Tannous: Doesn't move me much.
It can be fun, it could be light, but…
Devin Martin: And how do you think about
what it's doing to our consciousness?
I'm-
Alexandre Tannous: Oh
…
Devin Martin: I'm watching my children
grow up, you know, listening to pop and
rap and… You know, the lyrics are w-
saying one thing, which obviously could
be beautiful or quite gross, but then
the sounds which, you know, range from
acoustic to quite electronic, but also
the, the rhythms and the, the melodies.
Alexandre Tannous: It's doing a lot to
consciousness, and that's the one thing
that does the most to consciousness, and
this is why every holy house, whether
book religions, Eastern philosophies,
any spiritual sects, whether it's Sufi or
not, indigenous people ceremonies, whether
related to possession, healing, trance-
Or shamanic experiences with or without
psychedelics, there's always music.
If there's always music,
that's an indispensable thing.
That's not a superfluous thing.
That's something that humans
intuitively insert in there,
and it has the greatest level of
attention that shapes consciousness.
And we al- we've all seen how our
consciousness was shaped by the
music we start to listen to when
we are 9, 10, 11, and the evolution
Devin Martin: I was just gonna ask
you, what do you think is happening…
It's, maybe it's going through puberty.
There's this period of, I don't
know if it's hormonal, but you know,
love is coming online, romance,
sexuality is coming online, and
people often seem to imprint-
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: on the music they listen
to at that time, and for the rest of
their life either still listen to it
or have a nostalgic relationship to it.
Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: It's shaping them.
That's why they become attached
to it, and they become a byproduct
of the music they're listening to.
Uh, you know, it's easy to tell whether
the person walking, they're walking
a specific way or dressing a specific
way, whether he's in death metal- … or
punk rock or rap or hip hop, right?
Even- Yeah … the, the, the physique,
the clothing, the aesthetics, uh, the, the
manner of carrying the body, all of that.
So music shapes people
and shapes consciousness.
In consciousness, evolution is highly
reliant on what people are listening to.
There's a force behind that.
It's called entrainment.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: And that's one of
the most profound forces around us.
We're always being entrained by
advertisement, by- News channels
and, and, and programs and all
sorts of media, social media or not
Devin Martin: And, and
describe entrainment.
Is this like, like we were talking
about sympathetic resonance.
Yeah.
Is this related?
Alexandre Tannous: S- somewhat
related to the effects of sound.
Entrainment is how the music affects
you when you are watching a film,
and your focus is on the scenery,
cinematography, the lighting, and s-
set design and, of course, the dialogue.
But the music in the background
Devin Martin: changes a lot.
Sets the tone for everything, right?
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
And a good film with
bad music is a bad film.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Alexandre Tannous: So
music anticipates scenes.
It frames scenes.
It communicates things that words
cannot communicate, the director,
the acting, everything cannot,
and that's very important for…
I studied and composed film music,
so it's something I know very well.
I compose music for commercials.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: To really… Music
for commercials is so, so hard because
it's always composed in a way furthering
the intended entrainment, whether the
commercial is about Mercedes-Benz or
children's toys or Dimetapp or Tylenol.
Did you write
Devin Martin: jingles?
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: You did?
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah, as, you
know, a side job in, in, in, uh, my
undergrad and graduate school a bit.
Part of the many gigs I had to do.
Um, fortunately I never worked
restaurants and as a waiter like
most musicians do, but I did a lot
of these different gig- gigs and
Devin Martin: it is- And so you
studied, uh, what- whatever you want
to call it, the earworm phenomenon.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
It's
Devin Martin: called- Certain rhythms
and melodies that just get stuck
in your head- Everything … no
matter what they're saying,
Alexandre Tannous: and
you want to repeat them.
That's part of entrainment is to grab
you, and the commercial's music has to
grab you in the first three seconds.
Otherwise, you're gonna turn
off the volume or switch to a
different channel or start talking.
So the music is what grabs the
person through entrainment.
Entrainment's when you go inside a
church, cathedral, or yoga studio and
smell palo santo or smell, uh, copal
or incense or whatever, aromas, huh?
Um, it's used a lot in
shamanic experiences.
Entrainment is when you go to a
teenage clothing store, and you're
not gonna hear classical music.
Devin Martin: No.
Alexandre Tannous: What
are you gonna hear?
Devin Martin: Some pop.
Some-
Alexandre Tannous: Some pop that teenage,
yeah, teenagers listen to or are into.
Why?
To put them in a mood to spend money.
That's called functional music.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: And functional
music acts on entrainment.
This advertisement that you see, glancing
at it, that you don't even read and see
what it is, it already entrained you,
'cause it uses a lot of things that
grab you, even weaponized psychology.
There's often beauty, sensuality, and
sexuality that grabs you, makes you
Devin Martin: pay attention.
And, and it's the difference between
a fast food restaurant, which the
lighting and the sound are meant to
get you moving and get out of there
quickly, versus a truly luxurious dining
experience- Yeah … where they want
to slow you down with classical music.
In the
Alexandre Tannous: case of McDonald's and
all these things- You can experience this
presence before you get there olfactory.
Devin Martin: Mm, yeah.
Alexandre Tannous: They
do that on purpose.
That's entrainment.
To smell, you know, the french fries
or something fried or something,
like fried chicken or whatever.
Devin Martin: And so we're
all constantly bombarded-
Alexandre Tannous: Always
Devin Martin: with things that we're
m- maybe completely unconscious of.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And we think we're
independent actors, but all this
entrainment is happening to us, and f-
I, I'm amazed that you live, I mean,
we're in New York City right now, and
I'm visiting after having left here, and
I'm feeling overwhelmed with the noise
and the smell and the entrainment of the
city, and everybody's going so fast and
bumping into me, and it's so intense.
I'm curious how you experience… Do
you limit your exposure to the city?
Have you found-
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah,
Devin Martin: that's- … Cage-like
beauty in the noise?
Alexandre Tannous: Well, that's why
I live in the north end of Manhattan,
a neighborhood called Inwood, next
to the only natural park left in
Manhattan, uh, which is an old growth
forest where you could go hiking.
It's across the building, as you know.
Like, you can
Devin Martin: see it
from your windows, which
Alexandre Tannous: is amazing.
Yeah, all of my windows.
Uh, I live there, but I sometimes
have to go to Manhattan and downtown,
midtown, and you know, for various
things, meetings, work, or, or meeting
with friends, so I have to deal with the
noise and chaos, but I prefer to drive
or, you know, not deal with the chaos,
and I have earplugs with me all the time.
Devin Martin: Does your awareness
make it so you're able to deal
with it better, or, or does being
more sensitive make it hurt more?
Alexandre Tannous: I… Well, if you
start to work with sound, you, your
listening, your auditory cortex, your
discernment becomes so heightened.
It's a blessing and a
curse at the same time.
Right.
And you need that finesse, and the
fine-tuning of the sense, which is
the most powerful entrainment has
always been through the auditory.
And our senses are an extension
of our nervous system.
Right.
So our nervous system is a byproduct of
what our senses are messing all the time.
So this is why you find the mantra
system, the sutra systems, the
chants, the prayers, because you're
entraining yourself auditorily and
through bone and tissue conduction.
Your body is vibrating.
If you learn to do overtone singing,
which is producing multiple pitches, it
quiets your mind faster- Yeah … than
any mantra, in five to 10 seconds.
Absolutely.
W- which is basically,
uh, I can demonstrate it.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Alexandre Tannous: Uh, this is a way
that, uh, explores the harmonic series,
and the harmonic series gives us the tone
color, the timbre of all sounds we hear.
That's how we differentiate a sound of
a particular note, let's say G sharp
played on a flute versus G sharp played
on a tenor sax, same register, or G sharp
played on violin, or sung, or on a guitar.
People know that it's
a different instrument.
If they know what instrument it is, they
can call it, because the harmonics give
you different packaging of that note.
Devin Martin: That's the timbre?
Alexandre Tannous: That's the timbre.
Tim- timbre or timbre, tone color.
Um, and it's the different packaging,
different harmonics around the
fundamental frequency which are dictated
by four aspects of the instruments:
the size of the instrument, the shape
of the instrument, the material,
the material that the instrument
is made of, and the method that
you use to play the instrument.
Mm-hmm.
Blowing air through a single reed, buzzing
through mouthpiece like trumpet, single
reed, you know, clarinet or saxophone,
double reed, oboe, bassoon, playing a key
that hammers, plucking string, bowings.
It's physics are… So every instrument
we play has its own inherent harmony,
and we love to combine these instruments
together to play harmonious stuff.
Mm. You see what humans' obsession is
by exploring the potential of harmony.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Alexandre Tannous: Harmony shapes
the world, and also noise and
signal and their role in harmony,
in this harmony, the duality.
All of this is entrainment at the end
Our consciousness is shaped by physics,
especially the physical science.
So entrainment is immense when people
start to realize the power of these things
and how they can use these instruments
or recording of these instruments, where
people can explore my recordings on my
website, soundmeditation.com, of the
instruments that I use recorded with very
advanced technologies to quiet the mind.
I use them.
Best is you have, you know,
acoustical instruments.
You are lying down, an instrument
right next to you, but we don't
always have the luxury to do that.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Alexandre Tannous: So one can listen,
in this case, to high quality recordings
of this instrument and non-compressed-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Alexandre Tannous: so that
one gets the maximum data
coming from these instruments.
Devin Martin: By, by, by which you
mean this is not an MP3 on Spotify.
This is a-
Alexandre Tannous:
Yeah … lossless WAV file.
Spotify actually switched to, uh,
uh, it's, uh, non-compressed now.
Devin Martin: Oh, is it really?
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
It's, yeah, it's- Because
Devin Martin: the bandwidth
is there to stream it
Alexandre Tannous: now?
Yeah, they changed it recently.
iTunes changed it long before.
But now you can have a higher quality-
Devin Martin: Mm
Alexandre Tannous: where you can
download stuff on your phone more
and it can fit your terabyte phone,
one terabyte or 500 gigabyte.
So compression strips away information
and makes the f- the file smaller, five,
six megabytes versus 60, 70 megabytes.
And, uh, but non-compressed
audio is always better because
you have all the information.
Nonetheless, even the most capable
microphones would not able to
replicate what your ears can capture-
Right … and what your body can feel.
Devin Martin: Do you think society
has been significantly altered by
the fact that, before recording, if
you wanted music, you would either
have to go find a musician or be a
musician, and I think every community
had people who played music together.
And so to me, there's something
very profound about listening and
performing and trying to be in
sync with other people that way.
Whether it's my voice or an instrument,
there's something really transformative
about how subtle that experience is.
Alexandre Tannous: Mm.
Devin Martin: Um, and I think we've mostly
now become listeners And I wonder what
that's doing to some innate capacity or
desire we have to perform, and to relate
to people through shared performance.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
Yes.
A lot has happened to
music on many levels.
Here are a few things.
Yes, people don't go and experience music
live anymore because we have the luxury
of recordings, and that started with the
vinyls, and then after vinyls you had
tape, different forms of tape, and the
famous cassette tape, and then the CD,
and then MP3s ripping, and now it's rare
for people to have CDs or CD players.
But that would be non-compressed
co- format, AIFF or WAV format.
Uh, FLAC is another, uh,
non-compressed format.
MP3 is stripping away, and there's
different compression to MP3.
A song reduced to 128 kilobits per second
is really quite- You're losing a lot of
high frequencies … a lot of everything.
320, 320, you know, is still
compressed but not as bad as
256 or 120 and 28, I believe.
But you can go more than that, and then
you get to the realm of non-compressed.
But also there's degradation of
even if you have a CD, which is
analog… Uh, sorry, uh, digital.
It's not analog anymore.
Devin Martin: Right.
Alexandre Tannous: Analog is tape
and vinyl, and has a lot more.
It's not ones and zeros.
Remember, the magic is not-
Devin Martin: And this is why people
are orienting back towards vinyl again.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
And besides that, what kind
of… There's a degradation or
enhancement, an amelioration, whether
you're using the sophisticated
preamp and amp or integrated amp-
CD player or stylus and turntable and
what kind of speakers, what kind of
interconnect cables between the amplifier
and the speakers would make a difference
All of these things make a difference.
It's not just the microphones, and
just whether it's analog or digital.
There's so many levels of
degradations, or opportunities for
things to degrade or to be improved.
But people rarely now go and
experience music live where there's
the electromagnetics and the body
experiencing music, not just the ears.
But the ears are experiencing
music without amplification, or
acoustically and through amplification.
Devin Martin: I was gonna say,
even most live music performance
now is more like a recording-
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: than sitting in front
of somebody having an instrument.
Alexandre Tannous: Because
you, you're so far away.
You can't hear anything acoustically.
You're hearing, uh-
Devin Martin: A microphone
…
Alexandre Tannous: microphone.
Devin Martin: Through a speaker.
Alexandre Tannous: And may not
be the best microphone, you know?
And, and speakers, bunch of them,
and sound can be remarkably different
depending on so many variables.
What speakers, and what kind of
type speaker are they covering?
How are they covering the
tweeters, the high, you know,
and mid-range, and the low range?
These are the three things that you find.
Where are they placed?
What kind of company?
Which, what kind of speakers, and
what k- what kind of sound engineer?
And the mixing, it's so many
different… So many opportunities
for the sound to go either way.
Devin Martin: And this is why I think
it's profound to lay on the floor and
have somebody in the room with you.
Yes.
I mean, you've even at one point, I
remember you had a, a gong or a small
gong or a cymbal of some sort, and
you pressed it into my flesh of my
belly- Mm-hmm, yeah … and you were
striking it, and the resonance was just-
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: flooding
my body, and it was-
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: beautiful.
And, you know, so simple
and clear and immediate.
Alexandre Tannous: Immediate.
And that's what the experience
is about, immediate.
It's just… The, the value of the
direct experience is so underestimated.
And the importance of h- how to
pay attention in an experience.
That's why I've always been a great
fan of phenomenology and really
understanding phenomenology and how
it relates to spirituality, to the
discovery of the self, the inner
journey, what Eastern philosophy is
trying to communicate, and what a
shamanic experience or any psychedelic
experience, and this is something that…
Look at what people do
everywhere in the world.
They love combining drugs with music.
But the lack of education and because of
ignorance, they end up by choosing the
wrong drugs with music and focusing on
alcohol or speed or cocaine or whatever.
Yeah, and
Devin Martin: talk a bit about the
difference between people go out and
they drink and they see a show versus
a sound- And deadening their senses
festival that might have psychedelics.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: What is
alcohol doing to people when
Alexandre Tannous: they listen?
Well, alcohol, any alcohol, cheap
or expensive alcohol at the end is
all flavored ethanol, and ethanol
is a neurotoxin and cardiotoxin.
Yes, people speak about the great taste of
wine and single malt scotch and tequilas
and brandy and mezcal and whatever, but
people don't drink it just for the taste.
Yeah.
We have to make that clear.
They want the buzz.
Yes.
And what the buzz bring is a
little lightness of being and ease,
malleability, flexibility to let
go of the weight of their problem.
What is that problem?
It's the voice in the head,
attachment, addiction to shame or
guilt or anger or resentment or
self-loathing, self-victimization, fear.
They want relief from that, so they're
self-medicating, but that's at the
end neurotoxin and cardiotoxin.
And alcohol turns into sugar,
and sugar is not reserve energy.
It turns into inflammation or
cortisol, and so… And that's
humanity's Achilles heel, inflammation-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Alexandre Tannous: which I suffered
immensely from and had severe case
of ulcerative colitis because of
what my nervous system went through,
and, uh, well, I had full-blown case
when I was 21, ended up by removing-
Devin Martin: Of, of, you said
of, of ulcerative colitis?
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
They removed the colon and
rectum, and they created different
plumbing in my belly, and, uh- And,
Devin Martin: and do you think that
was a result of just the intensely
stressful environment- Oh, yeah … the
cortisol flooding your system?
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Yeah.
Stress creates- dysfunctional,
out of tune nervous system that
attacks the host body parts.
Devin Martin: Right.
Alexandre Tannous: That's friendly fire.
Why would you do that?
Because something went rogue.
It's so hypervigilant-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Alexandre Tannous: so protective, that
it starts to make calls it should not
make, which is to create inflammation
in the small intestine or entire mucosa
membrane, like people with Crohn's
disease, or fibromyalgia stuff or, or
lupus or ulcerative colitis where it's
localized in the rectum or large intestine
or all sorts of inflammation, right?
That's the most common thing.
It, it's
Devin Martin: like when you've been
trained that there is an imminent threat,
your body searches for it until it finds
something, even if it has to invent-
Alexandre Tannous: It's looking for it
…
Devin Martin: something.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah Because it
has had been doing this for so long,
looking for something to protect
you, and that's a big problem in
the world, reptilian brain behavior.
Trauma creates reptilian brain
behavior, and look at what,
what is going on in the world.
Look at what most businesses do, and,
and no disrespect to businesses, but
most, most businesses make money to
people who already have a lot of money.
It's true they give j- they create
jobs for people who have less money
and keep families alive and eating.
Um, but at the end, it's about profit.
Now, profit is not necessarily a
problem, it's what do we do with profit?
But if you see what we do with
profit is work very hard and save the
money on the side To be safe when a
dark day comes, when trouble comes.
Or to use on material stuff to
look good in front of others.
Very rarely people enjoy that.
And as people are working hard, they
lose self-love, they lose inner peace,
sense of safety, sense of purpose,
and joy, and that's a concern.
That now we have trillions of
dollars in assets, in bank accounts,
in gold and precious metals-
Devin Martin: It's
Alexandre Tannous: not flowing … and
we, and we create the dark day as we're
doing that, and we don't spend the
money on helping those who need help and
cleaning whatever needs to be cleaned
from the environment and pollution
and all the things that are causing,
contributing to climate change and
not the main cause of climate change.
I would say there are other factors, many
other factors, and hypes and whatnot,
but there is for real climate change.
So we can, with all this power
and genius and the money we
have, but we don't do that.
What's the cause?
Trauma.
Mm-hmm.
That's what people with trauma do.
Devin Martin: And I got to
know you many years ago in part
because our clientele overlap.
Mm. We both tend to work with people
who have a lot of financial success
and wield a lot of power, and-
Alexandre Tannous: And who are
looking for more sophisticated
methods and more rigor and more
Devin Martin: integrity- And are,
yeah, are on an inner journey and
are realizing that more money- More
progressive in the mind … is not
gonna help them feel safer or happier.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
Devin Martin: And it's been rare for
me to find somebody who is a type A
extreme, you know, overachiever who
doesn't have some unresolved trauma.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: Something, enough
becomes impossible to feel.
Alexandre Tannous: And very often people
with trauma can become high achievers.
Not, not all the time.
Devin Martin: Yes.
Alexandre Tannous: So- Because
they're trying to prove something.
Devin Martin: Right, right.
And so, and, and what I've seen is people
go work with you, and they come back to
me, and something dramatic has shifted.
Their, their heart is open,
they've, there's a tenderness often
that's emerging with themselves.
They're able to cry for the first
time, they're able to talk about some
challenging experiences that maybe
they didn't remember were there or they
had just had avoided talking about.
And something about the process of
the sound meditations and, you know,
and my, my bias is coupled with
good preparation, good integration.
Mm-hmm.
You won't be instantly healed, but you
might be shown the path to healing and
given some of the tools for healing.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And it's exciting for me
to see some of these people, you know,
become healthier stewards of their power.
And I, and I feel like that's why I
resonated with you immediately, 'cause
I saw that you were somebody who
also wasn't just demonizing people-
No … for their behavior, but saw
the humanity in everybody who- Mm-hmm
… came and wanted to work with you.
Alexandre Tannous: Absolutely.
We're not born evil.
If we become evil or misguided or,
you know, anything questionable,
it's because of trauma.
Trauma does that.
Devin Martin: There are no
evil babies, I like to say.
Alexandre Tannous: No, absolutely not.
No.
And, um, trauma can be
transmitted epigenetically, and
that's what we're doing now.
We seem to be trying to heal from the
epigenetic trauma that's been transmitted.
Epigenetics is part of our genes where
there's a database of experience for those
watching, listening, don't know this word.
And, uh, now in epigenetic field that
says that trauma can be transmitted up to
14 generations, I think it's countless.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
'
Alexandre Tannous: Cause
that number started as five,
jumped to nine, now it's 14.
I think really we are a species
with trauma, something I say
repeatedly, and species with amnesia.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: That there must
have been one big trauma or several
big traumas that shaped humanity,
and we're trying to heal from that.
And if I were to guess what
that would be, the one trauma
that all cultures talk about-
Devin Martin: The flood?
Alexandre Tannous: The flood.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: The flood, Noah's
flood, but I may not be the accurate
story because Noah's flood was not
the first time it's talked about.
It's Sumerian tablets and Esther
houses and, you know, goes
far deeper than that, right?
Anyway, but all cultures have talked
about a flood that created chaos and
killed most people, and we can now,
we have evidence of that, something in
archeology called the Younger Dryas.
If you dig deep in the earth,
you get to a thick layer of earth
material that is different color.
It means water came out of nowhere in
a short period of time and it froze.
And it is believed to have happened
around 12,800 years ago and must
have lasted about 11, 1200 years.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: To 11,600 years ago.
Could be 12,700 years ago.
We don't know, but around that time,
which was the end of the last ice age.
Yeah
Devin Martin: And so that could be
reverberating through time epigenetically
and in other ways we can't explain-
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah
Devin Martin: as a shared trauma.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: Which I think we all
have the opportunity to heal our part
of it and not, and pass on less of
it or maybe none of it at some point.
Alexandre Tannous: Mm-hmm.
Well, in my case and many of people's
cases that I have worked with, uh, were
people with a lot of severe traumas,
with, uh, intractable depression,
severe anxiety, panic attacks, with
couple therapy, doing couple therapy,
projection of stuff, or addictions.
Trauma creates chaos, creates noise, but
also creates reptilian brain behavior.
Devin Martin: Mm-hmm.
Alexandre Tannous: And I have something
I experience because your reptilian
brain, the brain stem, start to make
decision for you because that's the one
that keeps you alive, fight or flight.
Right.
So fear is necessary and
indispensable to stay alive.
But when we don't keep fear in check,
and when you live in environment
where you're always subjected to fear
and you always have to practice that
muscle, then fear becomes part of
everything and you always sees threat.
Then people become highly suspicious and
so much into control and manipulation,
and they lose connection to love,
compassion, empathy, because they're
being trained all the time by this.
And they may choose a career that
they're also in the financial field, for
example, where money, you know, it's-
Devin Martin: Yeah And it's interesting
how no matter how much money some
people get, it always feels fleeting.
It always feels like it could be
gone at any moment, and so they
want more and more and more.
And eventually, I think what they start
to realize is that it's only inner
work that is gonna help them feel safe.
Yeah.
There is no safety outside yourself.
Alexandre Tannous: Exactly.
But they keep running away from that
and looking for solution outside and
looking for more money, more power, more
connections, more fame to feel safe,
but they're doing the exact opposite,
and they do the most important thing
and the most pertinent last, and that's
something we do in various situations.
Devin Martin: You have me
thinking about the difference
between, um, improv and songs.
Um, and I'm curious how you think about
this, 'cause when you're performing in
a sound meditation, a lot of it- More
Alexandre Tannous: facilitating.
I
Devin Martin: like to use-
Facilitating … yeah.
It's- Yeah, you're… when you're
using your instruments, I don't
get the sense that there's…
I, I, I know you have a way of
thinking about them, but I don-
I, I don't get the sense you're
playing a predetermined composition.
No.
It's very-
Alexandre Tannous: Extemporized.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
It's… you're very present.
But then I wonder how you think
about, like, songs have some kind
of capacity to get people resonating
with each other when we share a song.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And I wonder if humanity's
healing is going to require global songs.
Alexandre Tannous: All of the above.
Exploration of music, sound, and, uh,
learning to choose better music to
listen to, learning to participate
in the listening or participate in
chanting, vocalizing, toning, singing
together, um- To entrain the self
to focus on lighter things, and-
Devin Martin: Do you think all
music serves some healing purpose?
Like, even when you're hearing somebody
who- … grew up in the ghetto rapping
about violence they experienced, is
that a s- a move in the right direction?
Alexandre Tannous: There is a
positive and negative aspect to that.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: The positive is
that the, the kid feels that this
music that he's identifying with is
telling his story, bringing his story
to the world, and it's affirming,
is it, because it's entraining him.
It's allowing him to
channel emotional states.
So it can bring relief,
embodiment, expression.
But at the same time, it's
entraining him or her to stay in
that perpetual state of suffering,
but he or she would not know that.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: And that's
the entrapment here, is that
it's per- And then bringing other
Devin Martin: people into that
Alexandre Tannous: same state
perpetuating suffering,
perpetuating violence.
Same thing with any music
that is violent, uh, intense.
Uh, when I was 16, I played hard rock and
some good melodic heavy metal, and well
structured, y- but it was still intense.
And I was in that period for a year,
year and a half, and then moved on.
Um,
Devin Martin: but it's still in me-
And do you not listen to intense
music like that very often now?
Alexandre Tannous: No.
No, because it's gonna entrain me.
Now, if I'm exercising, if I
want something to move my blood-
Mm-hmm … then I listen to certain
rock, not necessarily heavy metal.
Uh, something upbeat, faster
tempo to be entrained to do that.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
'
Alexandre Tannous: Cause that's what
music is for, and that's why the
music you find in yoga studio can be
spiritually sappy and, or sappy spiritual
music in, in a gym would be remarkably
different, or soul cycle or whatever- Mm
people are doing.
But, uh, to move you, that's entrainment.
Physics at work.
Devin Martin: Physics.
So there's a lot of re- there's a
lot of responsibility to whomever
is choosing or creating the
Alexandre Tannous: music.
So much.
So, so much.
So when I play tracks, everything's
extemporized, whether I'm playing
instruments or I'm choosing tracks,
I choose them in the moment.
It's not improvised, it's extemporized.
The difference between the two is that
improvisation, in improvisation, most
of the time the person is concerned with
all the things that are within them.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: Their training, how
they're feeling, what kind of licks they
practiced at home, and stuff, different
solos, and they come, and they play the
solo in a brand-new way, very rarely note
to note in the way they practiced it.
I mean, some musicians may do that, but
it's best to leave some room for them
to be affected by the audience, and the
more they're comfortable and seasoned
as a musician, the more they do that.
Then it's no longer an improvisation.
It's more of the realm of extemporization-
Mm … which is composing on
the spot in an impromptu way.
Allowing the self to be affected
by the group energy, the collective
electromagnetics, everything in the
space, and of course, how you're
feeling inside, your intention,
your will, your a- attention,
presence of mind, all the above.
Devin Martin: That helps me explain.
I, I used to… At some point,
I stopped liking solos in music.
Alexandre Tannous: Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: And I used to joke
that it was like watching somebody
masturbate in front of… Like, it
seemed so self-contained and cut off,
often not only from the audience,
but from the rest of the band.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And then, but
there is this thing that happens.
Alexandre Tannous: There is this thing,
and a solo can defer whether the music,
the, the musician is connected to the
other members of the band, whether there's
a lot of affectation, affectational
playing, fabricating or performance
art and dramatization, you know?
Or it's authentic and more
introspective and not so on a
showmanship and dramatic stuff, and…
Devin Martin: Yeah.
I, I tended to like groove, like when
people lock into a groove together,
and then it evolves- Yeah … together.
Everybody's moving in the same
direction, and I think- Yeah … solos
at their best can be that.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: But they're often not.
Alexandre Tannous: They're often not
because they become something else,
that it's not speaking in an honest
way, and integrity can be lost there.
Devin Martin: And you play, when you
play music, you play a lot of, uh, Middle
Eastern- I play- A lot of microtonal-
Alexandre Tannous: Microtonal,
Middle Eastern or not, and
Central Asian and stuff.
The tracks that I select,
yeah, for cultures that are,
have microtonal, um, system.
Uh, more than 12 tones per octave.
Uh, non-equal temperament, all of this.
I mean,
if you perform any of Bach's pieces
on the, like the violin partitas or
the unaccompanied cello suites, which
are often performed on double bass.
I used to play them.
Even though this is classical music
from an equal temperament system,
later on became equal temperament,
when you play a fretless instrument,
you will play between the notes.
Right.
Because that's what resonates with us.
As a singer, as a fretless musician,
fretless instrument, playing f- these
instrument, or even wind and brass
instruments, musicians automatically
play in non-equal temperament.
Unless they're playing an instrument
where they have no choice, like a
piano, fretted instrument, instrument
with keys, like a marimba, vibraphone,
xylophone, harpsichord, organ, piano.
Devin Martin: These instrument-
And, and you're quite literally
vibrating around the tone, right?
You're-
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
And, and you don't play on the grid.
You don't play where the fret is.
You play a little higher, a little lower.
Because these harmonics that
are in the series deviate.
Mm-hmm.
Some as little as plus two cents
and as great as minus 49 cents.
So almost half of the… You're,
you're like a quarter flat.
Devin Martin: Right.
Alexandre Tannous: A quarter sharp.
So these are notes that are
part of ancient scales and modes
that maybe they've been played
for centuries and centuries.
Harmony developed in the West in the
12th and 13th century in what became
known as the Notre Dame School in Paris.
We know of two of these people who
were involved, Léonin and Pérotin.
There were four of them, but
we know only of two of them.
They were the first masters to have
explored in bringing certain notes
to support a preexisting melody
and realize points of consonance.
These were the early
moments of creating harmony.
Through the first centuries with
people like Guillaume de Machaut and
eventually Palestrina, these names
may not mean anything to people, but
these are the early composers that
shaped harmony long before Bach.
Mm. Shaped harmony as we know it,
and harmony developed through the
development of these different
periods, medieval music, and then
Renaissance music, and then Bach.
Harmony developed a lot with, uh, in,
in the Baroque period with Bach, with
Handel, and other major, Vivaldi and…
But especially Bach because he was more
progressive than all the other ones.
He was obscured during his time.
It was Mendelssohn who 100 years later
revived his music- Is that right?
… in Leipzig, Germany.
Yeah.
Same with Beethoven.
He was not so popular.
He was radical.
He was progressive, and people- … didn't
know how to listen to that music.
It was a very shocking thing for
people to experience Beethoven
Fifth mu- uh, Symphony live.
They don't understand it.
Only the young composers like Berlioz
insisted on his teacher, Monsieur Delasus,
to, to go and listen to Beethoven's Fifth,
'cause as a young student, Berlioz was
so into progressive stuff, and Beethoven
single-handedly started Romanticism.
So very interesting thing that- And was it
Devin Martin: loud and jarring for
Alexandre Tannous: them?
It was loud and jarring, and it was so
different than anything that had been
composed that in his autobiography,
Berlioz, famous French composer that
shaped amazingly Romantic music,
heavily influenced by Beethoven, and
all other composers that were around
at this, uh, Schumann, Schubert,
Chopin, Wagner, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky-
Berlioz said Monsieur Lesueur stood up.
He wanted to put his hat on his head.
He couldn't find his head.
And he said, "One must not write music
like this. I felt that the whole house,
concert house, was going to tumble
on- Wow … on us." He was shocked.
So you see that when you bring music, and
especially music that Beethoven started
writing as he started losing his hearing.
Right.
People don't realize that to really
understand Beethoven's music, you have to
do a psychoanalytical study on the man.
How his suffering, his upbringing,
the death of his mom when he was
very young, how brutal was his dad,
addicted to alcohol, sad, traum-
traumatized, beating Beethoven.
Mm. Beating him up, and realizing
that he has a talent and wanted to
make a lot of money out of him, but
he didn't nurture him like Leopold
Mozart did with Amadeus, Wolfgang
Amadeus, uh, the famous Mozart son.
And, uh, so got a lot of beating up, and
eventually started losing his hearing
because of, uh, Paget's disease, which
is the bones in the head start to
grow, and e- eventually, they start to
obstruct the movement of the three bones
involved in hearing, the s- the stirrup.
So they can't vibrate anymore?
Devin Martin: They're kind of locked
Alexandre Tannous: in.
They c- they're locked in.
They don't vibrate, the
stirrup, hammer, and anvil.
And he started losing his hearing
as a famous pianist, one of the
most important pianists in Europe.
Started composing c- classical period
music, and because of the loss of
his hearing, started to move toward
expressing himself in ways that classical
period music did not accommodate this.
Started going from very slow to very
fast, and very gentle and soft to
very bombastic and angry, and added
instruments, part of the orchestra that
were never part of the orchestra, doubled
sections, and music was so hard to play.
The loss of his hearing-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Alexandre Tannous: it, it
Devin Martin: was remarkable.
So
Alexandre Tannous: I'm
Devin Martin: guessing you
don't choose that in a sound
meditation for people to heal to.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: Because it
has that anger and that-
Alexandre Tannous: But you see
how- … violence … a person's
trauma, pain, changed music forever.
That shaped consciousness, that people
early on couldn't understand it.
Devin Martin: Right.
Alexandre Tannous: It took a lot
for Beethoven to become popular, and
without Beethoven, rock and roll and
contemporary music would be different.
Devin Martin: Who are you listening to
today who you think is perhaps pushing
some boundaries in a positive way?
Alexandre Tannous: In what field?
In what, uh-
Devin Martin: In music that
you might choose to play
during a sound meditation or-
Alexandre Tannous: Well, I have so
many names, but, uh, what I like a lot
Is innovative music not for the sake
of… I'm gonna, I'm, I'm generalizing
but be- being specific to combine all of
these things instead of naming artists.
Anyone who's exploring something
innovative without being obsessed with
novelty- Yeah … and seeking novelty
to whatever extent, even to the level
of bastardizing beauty of music, just
to create really ugly, shocking music,
which is what most new music is about,
which is contemporary classical music with
cap- capital letters, New Music, academic
contemporary classical music- Yeah
which is what I studied, was
around for a long period of time.
I didn't write that music because
I was not obsessed with novelty.
The most novel thing, the most important
thing in 20th century is serialism.
What,
basically, um, so serialism is
about taking a series of different
pitches, different frequencies, mm?
And starting, let's say, with C# and
the next pitch that you play would be D,
and next play, one you play would be Bb.
And then would be G, and then next
one you play would be B natural.
The C# that you started with
would not be played again
until all other 11 ones played.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: Have been played.
And that gives you serial tone.
Devin Martin: So guaranteeing
that all 12 tones are played.
Alexandre Tannous: Yes.
In a, any, any succession that you
choose, and you can go forward or
backward, and you can go inver-
inverted, forward and backward.
Devin Martin: And that
sounds very intellectual
Alexandre Tannous: to me.
Very intellectual, and that is considered
to be the most important thing,
Devin Martin: so- Oh, you're not
saying this is what you're oriented.
No, no.
This is what academics are-
Alexandre Tannous: This is academic
…
Devin Martin: curious
Alexandre Tannous: about.
This is what serial music is about.
Devin Martin: Ugh.
Alexandre Tannous: Yeah.
Devin Martin: Does it sound like math?
Does it
Alexandre Tannous: sound- It, it's,
it sounds very jagged, and it's
innovative, but it's, there's no heart.
There's v-
Devin Martin: Doesn't feel-
No … emotionally expressive,
Alexandre Tannous: I'm
Devin Martin: guessing.
Alexandre Tannous: No, no.
It can be, b- in a very, very novel and
very unusual way, but nothing appealing.
It's very dissonant.
And we s- strove so much to
drift away from the tonality of
music, the centrality, and, uh,
there are forces behind that.
It's not just seeking novelty and seeking
something new that has not been created.
So the, the, the, the focus
became on that, on very
unique, individual expression.
Running away from stuff that is still
useful and s- can still move the
emotional state, but most of music
became focused on ugly and so novel.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: And we lost beauty.
And same with contemporary art.
Shocking.
Yeah.
Yeah, music can be shocking, and
art can be shocking, but it doesn't
have to be like this all the time.
Devin Martin: So at this
point, it's perhaps avant-garde
to be soothing with music.
Alexandre Tannous: Soothing in a creative,
inventive way, and simple and beautiful.
Look at the work, for
example, of Jacob Collier.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous:
Multi-instrumentalist, absolute genius.
Virtuoso on many instruments.
I love what he does with crowds- Yeah
… and the vocalization, and extemporizing
music with orchestras on the spot.
I love the way he plays.
I don't like so much his compositions,
but he's so incredibly talented
with the extemporaneous composition,
the composition that he does
with people, people vocalizing-
Yeah … harmonizing or orchestra.
Um, but that's genius, but simple at the
same time, and everyone relates to it.
And yeah, that's better than…
That's bringing people more together
than any famous contemporary composer,
whether Alban Berg or, you know,
Anton Webern, who's amazing and genius
in what he did, but he still played
serial music, and they both had the
same teacher, and this is the Viennese
school, the Second Viennese School, it's
called, serialism and atonality, and…
But there's a drifting back to tonality.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: We lost tonality.
We lost God.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Alexandre Tannous: Music and the
idea of God, and when I say God,
I'm not talking about Yahweh,
the God of the Old Testament.
I'm talking about God as intelligence, God
as love, God as omnipotent, omnipresent,
and not someone who's obsessed with
always asserting himself as the only
God and no other God but him, like-
Devin Martin: A truly
Alexandre Tannous: unifying
Devin Martin: presence
Alexandre Tannous: Mr. Yahweh.
True divine presence and humility,
not a narcissist, bipolar,
angry God, promotes killing.
Devin Martin: And we should say
that is another common experience
during sound meditations.
It's not just looking at
the past and healing trauma.
There's a transcendence
Alexandre Tannous: that often is-
Transcendence and realizing that love
and harmony are the most important
forces in the universe, and these were
consistently the most life-changing,
most transformative, the deepest
mystical states that I've experienced
Far greater than anything horrific and
terrifying that I've lived through,
and there's a lot of that- Mm-hmm
and there's a lot of other kind of beauty.
My experience with love and harmony in
mystical states, in deep meditative,
contemplative states, or even psychedelic
states, and I receive this work a lot
and to, to, to help me with my traumas
and, and the study of consciousness and
understanding music and sound therapy.
These are all tools.
Non-ordinary state of consciousness
is what people seek all the time, and
that's what the Gnostics brought, is a
way to understand the human experience,
you have to alter consciousness.
In the same way, to explain
to a fish what water is, you
have to do something to water.
Devin Martin: Right.
Alexandre Tannous: To take the fish out of
water, put bubbles in water or put a dye
of different color, and, and that's why
humans are always obsessed with altering
consciousness to understand consciousness.
Even little kids, why do you think
they're backwards and spinning- Spin in
circles and get dizzy and- … spinning
circles and whirling and rides and, you
know, all sorts of things, and humans
altering consciousness in different ways.
But that has been steered into altering
consciousness in a way to cope with
issues, and then next day the issues
come back again, whether the person
is taking, uh, cocaine or speed
or alcohol or, uh, all the other-
harmful, uh, legal and illegal
drugs and, and pharmaceuticals
Devin Martin: So tell-
Alexandre Tannous: Killing
people kills business
Devin Martin: Yes, I know, and
it's… I'm, I'm excited for people
to be able to experience what you do.
So tell, how do people connect with you?
I know you have some sound meditations
coming up in New York City.
Yes.
People can come buy a
ticket and experience this.
Alexandre Tannous: Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: Um-
Alexandre Tannous: There's one on
October 1st if people are in and around
New York, um, at the Sukhi Yoga City.
It's on my website, uh,
soundmeditation.com.
Um, a lot of free resources and
well-vetted material, recommended
books and talks and, and films-
And recordings as well, correct?
Recordings, and yeah, it's a great
resource for this, and, and, uh,
some of the events that I do are
listed, and people can reach out
to me if they want to be included,
uh, set in a, on an email list, but
soundmeditation.com would be the one.
I'm not on most social
media, unfortunately.
Only on Facebook, but I use it
in a way that brings awareness
and share good stuff with people.
Uh, not on Instagram, TikTok, or X. Sorry.
Devin Martin: You're probably
saving yourself from a lot
of negative entrainment-
Alexandre Tannous: Yes
…
Devin Martin: by, by doing
Alexandre Tannous: this.
That's why I do it, and I prefer the
cover- But I do realize that social media
can be used in a positive way, and I do
that, but I just don't have so much time
to be engaged in all these platforms.
Discernment is important.
Devin Martin: Yes, very important.
Well, thank you for coming on and sharing-
Thank you … and for being you, and for
being somebody that I can collaborate
with in my work, and you've, you've had a
huge impact on a lot of people, and so I
hope this message touches a lot of people.
Alexandre Tannous: I'm very honored.
Thank you so much.
You're doing amazing work, Devin.
I, I love also what my clients
have experienced with you.
They always talk marvelously about your
work and how, uh, attentive, how much
nurturing, giving, the insights you give,
and the great write-ups and the emails
you send them and very precise things.
You, you go the many extra miles.
Devin Martin: Thanks, Alexandre.
Alexandre Tannous: Thank you.