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Hosted by Osborne Clarke trainees and solicitor apprentices, Law Beyond Limits shares candid conversations with OC lawyers about their routes into the legal profession. Guests reflect on career highlights and hiccups, the realities of progression, and lessons learned. At its heart is social mobility: what it means, why it matters, and how we can support people from diverse backgrounds by removing barriers.
Hello, and welcome back to Law Beyond Limits, the podcast where OC lawyers share their career stories, the challenges, and highlights they experience along the way. I'm your host, Millie Brown. I'm a trainee solicitor at Osborne Clark. And today, I'm joined by Catherine Keridge, partner in our competition law practice and also our global head of tech. Catherine is also the partner champion for our OC Social Mobility employee network, and she is an advocate for accessibility in the legal profession and the importance of diversity.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much joining us today Catherine.
Speaker 2:No thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:So if we take it back as we normally do to around twenty years ago when you started your legal career, how was it entering the profession then?
Speaker 2:In lots of ways it was similar to how it is now. I trained at OC and so I guess coming into OC there's kind of a lot that's familiar to us now. But it was different in that there was much more of a kind of single route in. It was normally a Russell Group University, it was normally a training contract. So I think it didn't feel as kind of vibrant and different in some ways and probably much more male dominated as well I think coming in then.
Speaker 2:So I think when I look back it still feels like OC but evolved quite a lot since then.
Speaker 1:And so can you tell us
Speaker 2:a bit about your journey in then? So I went to very normal kind of state school where I grew up. I went to a big sixth form state college which was quite ambitious, kind of felt like a sort of step up in some ways. I then went to Bristol University, which was kind of a change, a different environment again. I then got my training contract at OC while I was at Bristol Uni.
Speaker 2:Maybe we can talk about it a bit, I'd been volunteering at the Bristol Law Centre and actually working with somebody from OC to kind of encourage me to apply for a vacation placement. So I kind of felt like I was sort of embedded with OC quite early on.
Speaker 1:You had that mentor to help you through. Exactly right. Okay, wonderful. And did you feel like a city lawyer at the time then or did that do you feel like one now?
Speaker 2:No, I was going to say I'm not sure anyone well, I think if everyone's honest, I'm not sure you'd ever completely lose the imposter syndrome. No, definitely not. You know, I said it was male dominated and I think you kind of had an image of a city partner as being, you know, probably a kind of alpha male, you think of it as kind of litigators, partners, know, and I kind of thought to myself as probably being a bit quieter, a bit gentler, you know, I hoped I might have a family. Couldn't really see that that would be a kind of option. I think I didn't see myself as a city lawyer at all, but was kind of up for trying it into
Speaker 1:Yeah, different for work sure. And did that come at any point? Did you feel like you started to settle into the career
Speaker 2:or when did that turning point happen? Yeah, I mean, think I always loved it. So I did a vacation placement with OC and it really opened my eyes, I think, to how many different jobs there are in the kind of city firm. Know, I think I had thought it would be all corporate and litigation and actually loads of people doing such a wide range of different jobs. So I think I always enjoyed it, but I once read that you can look at imposter syndrome as kind of being a wedding crusher and that you run around and eat as much cake and do what you can.
Speaker 2:I think I've always slightly, in retrospect, had that approach of just being like, this is fun, I'll keep doing it. But I think probably when I made Associate Director, I was actually pregnant with my second daughter. I was working part time. And you have to really pitch yourself when you go for those promotions. And I think when I was pitching myself, I sort of actually took a step back maybe and thought, oh, actually I'm really doing this and I've done well, and I feel like I can do this even though I'm part time and pregnant and maybe didn't see myself as a city lawyer.
Speaker 2:So I think becoming associate director was a kind of shift where I thought, okay, I'm doing this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're getting that. I think obviously having to sell yourself to someone else maybe makes you kind of reflect and see what you're good at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're daunting those promotion processes, but actually I've always found that it's a really useful exercise talking about yourself and why you're good. Every now and then. Sometimes you believe your own thing, but why? Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I guess that's probably similar to how vaccine applicants would be feeling, training contract applicants would be feeling, especially like you said, maybe females or people from state schools and it's taking those barriers to some and trying to sell them. I know definitely coming from a non Ross recruitment background myself, that was something I mentioned in every interview did because it's what makes you you and it's your journey,
Speaker 2:isn't Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's the thing that people shouldn't underestimate, that actually those unique experiences that you've got bring a different perspective, And a different so much of what we're doing is risk assessment, advising different types of people in different types of scenarios. So I think, yeah, having that confidence of saying, is my different perspective and this is why it's valuable, think that's a really good thing to be able to do.
Speaker 1:For sure. For sure. And so as partner now and head of tech at Osborne Clarke, how do those experiences shape how you lead in your teams?
Speaker 2:So I think definitely having sort of had different educational experiences along the way, so sometimes being in a really sort of Bristol's strong private school background environment, quite normal state school, very ambitious state school. When I came to law school in London at that time you had people doing training contracts who were going to go and do massive different range of legal careers and so I think I've been really lucky to have learnt alongside a big range of different types of people and I think that's given me an element of kind of understanding of different perspectives but also a real appreciation of how much better things are when you've got a mix of different backgrounds and perspectives and how we all do a better job as lawyers.
Speaker 1:And how do you kind of use that perspective to push that into your team and create a dynamic team, a diverse team?
Speaker 2:Well I hope it is about continuing to create that kind of environment where everyone knows they're valued for being different and you know I hope the team knows that I do really value those differences and want to hear from them and that kind of psychological safety I think as well, like we all make mistakes, it's okay to make mistakes. It's not always the easiest to say oh I made a mistake here, but trying to do that as much as possible when you do so that people believe that you really mean it, that you want them to be different and human. Thing. Hope I'm bringing that.
Speaker 1:For sure. And so in terms of being an inclusive firm, why
Speaker 2:do you think that's so important moving forward? I mean, loads of reasons. Obviously it's the right thing to do. Yes. And if in a kind of legal justice based environment we're not doing the right thing here then where are you going to do As well as that I think we know it makes us a better business.
Speaker 2:We know that when you are sort of the law is changing so much, technology is changing so much, we need people to be resilient and agile, thinking about things from all different perspectives. Yeah. And that requires a diverse team. Can't everyone approaching the problem from one single way. So I think we know that as a business we need to be as diverse as possible, but also our clients are diverse, they reflect society, we want to build really strong relationships and that means that we need to reflect the people that we're working with on the other side.
Speaker 1:I think that's really interesting actually how it reflects diversity and although OC, would argue, are kind of ahead of the game maybe in the legal industry. I think other industries are are becoming more inclusive. Definitely diverse. If you look at tech, startups, you know, these are people that haven't all come from private educated backgrounds. And so the people on the other end of the emails on the other end of the phone don't always want to be speaking to the same type of person either.
Speaker 2:So Exactly. Exactly. And the way that we build really excellent client relationships and understand them and where they're coming from is have people that they love working with and that means you need to have lots of different types of people for clients to work with.
Speaker 1:It also makes it just a more enjoyable place to work, doesn't it? And it's not fun,
Speaker 2:that's right, exactly got the fun but
Speaker 1:you're absolutely right. So all of that's very positive, there's obviously still a lot of work to be done and where do you kind of see in the market or at OC even itself where the gaps are and what changes do you think could be made?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we and lots of firms are doing a really good job of working hard and introducing lots of new measures but I think what we all have to do is be really honest and really willing to challenge ourselves. So it's not enough to just have lots of fantastic programmes in place and say all the right things if you're not checking whether it's actually making difference on the ground. Are the stats changing? Are people's experiences changing? And you have to have that kind of environment of constant challenge, think, to say, is it working?
Speaker 2:Are we doing enough? And being willing to say, if it's not working, we're going to try something different or we're going to listen to people and do things in a different way. I think that's the way to really make a change is to keep challenging ourselves and being honest about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And can you give us an inside confirmation that that is happening at the top?
Speaker 2:It's definitely happening. It's happening and I think we're getting better at that all the time. So I sit on the Diversity Champions Forum and part of that role is to be saying well this sounds like a great initiative but what's actually happening? We've got a lot of data now in OC where we can really look at what's actually happening on the ground. So, yeah, it's definitely happening.
Speaker 1:It's happening. Yeah, you've got people
Speaker 2:being annoying and asking difficult questions. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1:that's amazing. Actually, I recently helped out with the social diversity index submission. So for 2025. Yeah. We'd obviously done it for 2023 and the stats, pleased to say, had all gone up.
Speaker 1:So the work everyone's putting into social diversity is definitely paying off.
Speaker 2:That's right. And that's a great example because they give us an amazing report back as well. So even though each year our rankings gone up and it would be quite easy to say, oh we're doing all the right things, we're moving up, they give you a very robust report. Actually we have an amazing group within the network who really picked that report apart last time and made lots of recommendation about more things we could be doing. That's a really good example of where you can challenge yourself rather than just doing all the PR around Definitely.
Speaker 2:Your
Speaker 1:And I think when it's coming from a committee like the Social Mobility Index, it's you're targeting issues that maybe we don't know about yet. It's kind of thinking a few years ahead almost.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:A lot of what we did recently was accent bias and trying to improve the training on that. So that's all very good. What advice would you give perhaps to your younger self or to someone else applying now about how to overcome any challenges they're facing with
Speaker 2:So social I think you know we've talked about all the great programmes there are out there and there are lots of amazing programmes but I think even if you don't fall within one of those or you don't want to take it up. Think what you said actually about understanding the strengths that you have from your background, I think that's something that often we sort of assume it's something it's a disadvantage and we need to hide it. Hide an idea, exactly. And actually there will be so much in your own individual background that makes you different and unique in that perspective. I think you said it better than I could in terms of feeling proud of that, knowing that it's the kind of superpower and using it rather than feeling that it's something that you have to hide.
Speaker 2:And I think from a kind of OC perspective, we absolutely want you to apply, you know, we really want those skills and talents, we want the best people wherever they're coming from. And so please just feel confident to apply.
Speaker 1:I actually remember being on my vacation scheme and worrying about, who's going to ask me where I've been to you? Yeah. And actually, no one asked. And I prepped this speech, but I've gone to no one else's group and no one asked. Because no one minds.
Speaker 1:And that's better. And on reflection it's like, okay, I don't need to prove myself, I don't need to prepare a speech, know, everyone has their differences and actually no one minds. But at the same time it's understanding that people in your team, like you said, may have come from different backgrounds and giving time, giving patience, knowing that there's a whole range of people in the team.
Speaker 2:And I hope it's more than that they don't mind. I hope it's that they would be super interested in where you went to university and what your experience was and what you did there. Know people should care about it. They just don't see it as a negative thing. You shouldn't feel like you have to hide it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And prepare the speech.
Speaker 2:Talk about you and where you went to uni.
Speaker 1:And so maybe less on the social mobility side, but also I think it fits anyway, what is your kind of top tip for a successful applicant or a successful career in law? I guess we've talked
Speaker 2:a bit about applicants, maybe thinking about successful career in I think one thing that sometimes freaks people out is that there's lots of discussion of building your own network. And I think if you come from a background where you're not necessarily walking in OC or another law firm with like a big school or university network, you again assume that you're at a disadvantage. But I think what I would say is you don't need that when you're a super junior lawyer. It's something that grows and grows and your peers are the leaders of the future. So when we talk about building a network, it's really just about keep in touch with your fellow apprentices, with the other trainees, when you meet people from other firms, when you go to just keep in touch with people, think about the people you like working with and who might like working with you, and just work on those interpersonal relationships.
Speaker 2:It's not building some powerhouse network of GCs when you're a junior lawyer, It's just about kind of making friends, you know, and looking for opportunities to help each other out and kind of growing through your career together. And I think sometimes we feel like that's a big disadvantage if you don't walk in with a kind of ready made network but it's not sort of what it's built out and to I think sometimes people really worry that that's a disadvantage and it's not at all, it's just making the most of the people that you meet along the way.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting. Actually, I've never really thought about the fact that the people I'm working with on the lower end or the junior end are are gonna be the people around the table one And it's you wanna make this kind of network with the people above you who aren't gonna be here, realistically. No.
Speaker 2:So that's right. It's you guys. Yeah. Yeah. And you'll all grow together and some people will go in house and some people will go to other firms.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, that's, that is your network. Yeah. You've got it already. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, sometimes it feels like it's more mysterious Yeah. And difficult than that, I think. Keep those friends. Exactly.
Speaker 1:I think that's always a worry as well. I I always found that people come in maybe, like you said, with a network from family or or however it may be, and not being able to go home and and talk about it at the dinner table and things like that. Yeah. Have you ever felt struggle?
Speaker 2:Yeah. To some to some extent, definitely in terms of the kind of city piece and feeling like her sort of working somewhere quite different. And I'm sure that that is a challenge for lots of people as well. But I think again there's so much about our job that's just the same as everyone else's It's interpersonal, there's challenges, it's that kind of thing. So I think generally I felt like I've been able to talk about the elements that are really relatable no matter what it is.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes it's taking away that mystique of the job that we're sort of swaddling around like we're in seasons or drama all the time. Tell anyone. That's what we do. But there's so much about our job that's just a normal job. So I think, you know, whatever my kind of friends and family and things are doing, there's always those core elements that are the same no matter what you're doing.
Speaker 1:And especially probably somewhere even more so like OC where the culture is just so inclusive, you're not partners, senior associates, some of my best friends are in workplace services and that's how you build the community. That's amazing, thank you so much. We will finish with some closing quick fire questions which never seem to be
Speaker 2:that quick fire. Starting
Speaker 1:off, what does social mobility mean to you?
Speaker 2:I think to me it means everybody having the same opportunities regardless of their background, also I think knowing about the opportunities and having the confidence to take them and I definitely see that as part of our job within social mobility is that making sure that we're telling enough people that the opportunities are there, we want them here, rather than just saying well we've of we've evened the playing field so it's easy. Think it's more than just about making the opportunities, it's kind of promoting them and giving people the confidence to take them.
Speaker 1:And hopefully, by you being here today, going on Instagram, hopefully, we're reaching a wider pool of people who maybe, like you said earlier, don't fall into either end of the spectrum, the schemes or privilege.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1:That's really helpful. So finish this sentence. I made it into law
Speaker 2:because? Because I was lucky to have some great opportunities, but I guess I also worked really hard when they came along as well. You create your own luck. That's right.
Speaker 1:Biggest misconception about a legal career?
Speaker 2:Maybe it's the stuff I was saying that it's all litigation and corporate. Yeah. You know, I definitely thought that it was going to be more aggressive, and more there are so many people just doing fantastic client facing advisory roles, doing a really good solid job for their clients. So it's not all kind of half expected.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I was the other end. I didn't know what corporate law was probably until a week before my law degree, I thought a lawyer was a barrister in a way, criminal cause. That's the only type of law there is.
Speaker 2:Or like family law because you know you see that kind of stuff, that's right. So it's either like TV or sort of real life. Real life.
Speaker 1:We're somewhere in the prestige middle that no one talks about. One thing you wish every aspiring lawyer knew? That it's really fun.
Speaker 2:I think it's a great career. Yeah. It's a a real people career. You know, you're working with people all the time, whether it's colleagues or clients. It's
Speaker 1:fun. I think on that note, that's a brilliant note to end on. It's fun. Don't be scared. Alright.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us today, Catherine. It's amazing to hear story. Thanks.