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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Like me, you've probably seen rankings of the best places to work and thought not only that they would indeed be places where you'd want to work, but that these organizations are progressive and they're building a workplace of the future That's better for all of us. I.
[00:00:14] Dan: Well, our guest on this episode of We, not Me, is Amy Wilson, a business consultant and she took the time to dig a little deeper into one of these features. The results are surprising and teach us all not to be complacent when we see them.
[00:00:32] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:39] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. How are you doing Dan Hammond?
[00:00:43] Dan: I'm very well thank you. I feel we haven't talked much this week. I think we've been, we've been sort of spread to the four corners rather, so it's very nice to, to catch up and do the top of this potter.
[00:00:54] Pia: I a hundred percent agree. I was out last night. I actually had a social life and I was with the Northern Rivers text mixer. all sorts of wonderful people from different organizations, big global organizations, small organizations, all based in our area. It's a great little great little way for everyone to catch up.
[00:01:12] Dan: They're nice, aren't they? And, and, um, I love the way you count that as a social life, by the way. Well, yeah.
[00:01:17] Pia: And I know,
[00:01:18] Dan: great. That's great. Welcome to founder life. Um, and I was out yesterday as well, with, with Ian, our CTO. Um, and, um, we were at Climb 25, which was a, a big a tech startup, uh, investor community meeting in, uh, in Leeds. It was really excellent, actually. But it's great to see these professionally run events, you know, so really massive, just multiple streams, really good speakers, including the guy who, um, uh, Steve Edge, his name is, I mean, he was gonna go far, wasn't he?
[00:01:51] Dan: Um, but he. designed the Millennium Falcon in Star Wars. And, but he, he had incredible story. What a raconteur. But it was a, it was, it was really interesting and I got to Talk about Squadify and where I started was with this sort of bad news about the workplace, you know, that we, we often talk to people about, um, and how, you know, engagement and performing productivity is flat in the uk.
[00:02:15] Dan: Uh, engagement's dropping just about everywhere. And, on the face of it, If you looked at the Sunday Times, best places to work and some of these engagement surveys we sometimes see in the, in the clients work on everything looks rosy. But you know, underneath the surface something else is happening.
[00:02:32] Dan: And, a few weeks ago, my eye was caught by LinkedIn post by our guest today that took the Sunday Times best places to work. Yes. News item and ripped it to pieces in a forensic way. And I thought, right, we have to talk to her about this. 'cause she's talking about the reality underneath the sort of bedspread if you like.
[00:02:53] Dan: So, we, uh, yeah, we've got a wonderful conversation today with Amy Wilson. So with no further ado, let's, um, let's go over and hear from Amy.
[00:03:04] Pia: a very warm welcome to Amy Wilson. Welcome to We Not Me.
[00:03:08] Amy: Hi.
[00:03:08] Pia: Amy's a commercial consultant advisor, which we're going to, um, delve into her viewpoints on, um, best places to work and, uh, what constitutes the best place to work criteria a bit contentious these days. Um, before that. We put you into the question chamber with Mr. Hammond, and if anyone is hearing some funny noises in the background, it's just a dog. It's okay everyone.
[00:03:36] Dan: a bit of scrambling. Canine scrambling. Oh good. Well I think it's gonna be excellent. Um, and um, actually. Amy, I have to say, having spoken to you, I thought, oh, it'd be great to get a re a, re a red card. I reckon you'd, you'd have some good answers, some tricky questions, but the, the answer, the one I have is a green card, which is an easier one, but my main passion is what's your main passion,
[00:03:58] Amy: Um, this is a funny answer. Um, so I, I grew up with a family of teachers and, um, being, you know, a very naive, outspoken child, I just thought that was a bit of a. You know, rubbish inspirations. Having my family, I always imagined, you know, going into a corporate world and changing the future. Um, and I always, um, underestimated my mom and my auntie and a lot of our friends who are teachers.
[00:04:22] Amy: Um, and I think what I've learned through a couple of things I've done in my career is actually haven't been a teacher, but I've done an awful lot of mentoring, especially with young people. I mentor young people from the Prince's trust during charity work. I, I mentor, um, underrepresented founders. On a pro bono basis.
[00:04:39] Amy: And I just, that absolutely is the thing that I get. Um, you know, I find the most rewarding, um, I think when it comes to un underrepresented founders as well. We talk about moms and parents a lot, and I think I've just felt so much pleasure from hearing women reach out to me and thank me for talking about my experiences as a mother and a business owner. So for me, that's easily an easy question to answer. That's what I get
[00:05:02] Dan: That's great. That's a good one. Excellent. It gives a little bit of a, sheds, a little bit of light on what we're, what we're going to hear. Wonderful. So, um, Amy, tell us a little bit about, bit more about you. Where, how'd you get to this spot? You sort of shed a little bit of light on your, your sort of childhood there. Tell us a bit about, uh, a bit of a bio in the box for Amy.
[00:05:20] Amy: For me, um, well, it's really funny. I've got, you know, if you ever have a look at my LinkedIn, I, it's like war and peace and it's, I, I never know whether to just take everything off or put everything on, but I just feel like I'm quite an open book. I put everything on there and people come to me and think that I've had this really strategic narrative arc to my, um, career.
[00:05:37] Amy: But it's essentially just being. One set of slides and doors, after another. Um, I ended up in marketing accidentally out of uni 'cause I couldn't get a foot into the international development world, which is what I wanted to do. The company I did my grad scheme map sold to Adobe. So under, um, it's, it's kind of the underlying tech that you come across in the Adobe Marketing Cloud now, which meant that I was able to kind of dine out off that brand early into my career.
[00:06:02] Amy: And I became a consultant at, I think I was 20. Five or maybe even 24. So I went round loads of different organizations and, started out in media, but then hopped over to working for private equity backed businesses, which then hopped me over into the startup space. And it was through that working in small leadership teams that I really realized how much I love running, running companies and helping companies grow and helping founders focus on, on what really matters. That's kind of where I've got to in my 20, 20 year, uh, career so far.
[00:06:33] Pia: Pretty impressive.
[00:06:34] Dan: It's,
[00:06:36] Pia: So tell us about how you got into the best workplace environment and how that your careers moved into, into understanding what constitutes a great place to work.
[00:06:48] Amy: Yeah, I think that's a really good question, and I think probably the honest answer is that it's a perfect storm of a few, a few different things. I think firstly. I came at the workplace right from the bottom. So when I was at uni, I worked in the most sort of like lowly admin roles. Um, and I saw things right from.
[00:07:07] Amy: The ground up, which I think, you know, if you do a grad scheme and you come into a management scheme, you don't necessarily experience all the roles in an organization. So I've always had a lot of empathy and understanding for what happens throughout every sort of layer in a business through the hierarchy.
[00:07:21] Amy: I think the other thing is that, um, I'm neuro divergent and along with that, a trait of very strong passion for, for moral justice comes into play. And I think for me it really just boils down to. Treating people how you wanna be, wanna be treated. And I think early on in my career, I saw some really, really terrible management.
[00:07:39] Amy: I think, sometimes the, the saying is that management's like parenting. You just try not to emulate some of the worst things you've experienced. And I certainly feel that I've been lucky to have some terrible managers and learn from them and know certainly what I didn't want to do. Um, and I. I approached management with a lot of freedom 'cause I was, I was a consultant and I didn't have sort of training of what was expected of me.
[00:08:02] Amy: And I approached it naturally and, and respectfully. I, I hope, and I feel that that's what. Taught me what was effective. And I think because people generally liked working with me and they wanted to impress me, it led to sort of a human leadership approach. And I, and that's something that I'm always really passionate about now.
[00:08:19] Amy: And if I work for any other organizations, I'll be talking about that through my interviewing and pitching process. And if I'm not supported as a leader in managing with that star, then it's not. An organization that I feel I can really deliver an effect effective, um, project for, because that's how I know I need to lead.
[00:08:36] Amy: So it's lots and lots of different things. I think also having consulted in over a hundred businesses, there's that element of pattern recognition and you can see really what. Doesn't work and some of the counterproductive things that happen. I was really lucky when I was at uni to work for legal in general when they did some research about the cost of recruiting.
[00:08:54] Amy: And, you know, I've seen people leave jobs because they couldn't get a 500 pound pay rise or because they weren't allowed to go to someone's wedding, or, you know, and when you look at how that affects the costs then for a different part of the business to hire. So I, I think it's just about taking a really common sense and human approach to it really.
[00:09:12] Dan: Completely relate to that. Amy, just speaking personally, I think the lack of that is what made me exit the corporate world. It just became even, even back then, that was 2008. And I think things have have not improved since, but the, the sort of lack of humanity, the, the lack of realism and even the quality of decision making just, just flushes you out eventually. I think if you want, want that sort of sense of moral justice.
[00:09:36] Amy: Yeah. And actually it reminds me of a friend of mine. Um, she was a, an EA, um, at an advertising agency and she was trying to buy a house with her partner, and she just said to them, look, you know, I haven't had a pay rise in real terms for like ages. You know, if I'm doing well, then why am I not getting recognized in my pay?
[00:09:54] Amy: And again, I think it's one of these scenarios where they like, I. Gave her such a normal, she had to put herself in a really uncomfortable position to get this pay rise. That ended up being very nominal. But then they made this huge show and dance of taking her out for this lunch that cost like 600, and she was like.
[00:10:10] Amy: You won't give me the pay rise, but you'll spend all this money on a lunch. Like it shows how little you, you know, because when it comes to a pay rise, every little counts, right? 'cause it goes five times on the mortgage that you can get. And she was just so, she, she was just so, you know, them taking her to lunch was just so tone deaf in that particular scenario. And you know, I've, I've, I've got so many different stories that I like that, that I could, I could
[00:10:32] Dan: It's so interesting. It's interesting, and you caught our eye, Amy, with this particular post on LinkedIn, which I think has been quite popular about the, um, times best places to work Georgia. Just take us into that post, what, what you said and the points you were making. Um, it'll be great and we'll, we'll, we'll, there'll be a link to this in the show notes, this post. But um, if you could just talk us through it, that would give us a really good start.
[00:10:55] Amy: Um, well, it came up on my LinkedIn newsfeed about a few days after it was published in the paper, and, um, it came up because. Actually a few people in my network that I know to be very good at talking and not so good at following through, were sharing that their own companies were recognized in the list.
[00:11:12] Amy: So I was thinking, oh, okay, this is interesting. and yeah, when I, I read through, um, I, I read through the article, I was just like, so frustrated. Um, I think frustrated on a personal level because I've worked for the kind of organizations that talk about being great. Employers to women, and I've not had that personal experience.
[00:11:32] Amy: But then also, um, just seeing the things that they're focusing on. You know, it's such a business trick to talk about something that doesn't really matter. While the basics are just all wrong, and I think that article is a real. Good example of that. Um, and especially when I think about my early career, some of the situations that I was forced into, you know, like working till 10 o'clock every night, 'cause it was like weekly reporting and I got a free pizza and I'd go to my manager and I'd say, look, my hourly rate is more than half a pizza.
[00:12:02] Amy: Do you know what I mean? My four hours of my time is worth more than half a pizza. And it's just this kind of group think. and I think probably on the ground, it, it makes a lot of people feel. Feel really uncomfortable and probably individually. Lots of people are thinking, I don't want cupcakes. I don't wanna bring my dog to work.
[00:12:16] Amy: I actually just want a chance to have a decent life and have a respectful level of pay and, you know, be able to take my kids home from school and, and that, you know, that article just sort of summarized that whole madness for me and I just felt like I had to say something.
[00:12:31] Dan: And, and what did you say? Just talk, talk the, talk our listener through that. Just briefly. What's the high level?
[00:12:37] Amy: Well, I actually analyzed the article with ai, and part of it was things I'd already spotted. Um, so for example, one of the big businesses on the list was being acknowledged as a top employer, but it has 45%. Gender pay gap, which is obviously completely unacceptable and indefensible in 2025. Um, and the fact that it's then on a list is just even more ridiculous.
[00:13:00] Amy: I think there was, um, like I say, the article was very focused on these performative measures like breakfast and days out and dogs, and I know like free gym, gym membership. But actually when you look and break it down to, Certain cohorts, like parents or, um, like some minority groups, um, or like, you know, the LGBTQIA plus community, the stuff on there was just a load of a load of nonsense.
[00:13:27] Amy: And actually when you break it down and analyzed it, there were no real meaningful benefits at all. Um, and there was some very problematic statements on there. For example, when we talk about. Maternity or paternity leave? Um, I think probably until you get around to the point where you're pregnant or planning family, you don't actually look at what the statutory benefits are in the UK and you know, I'll cut to the chase.
[00:13:48] Amy: They're absolutely appalling. think, I think the last time I was on maternity. I, I got 600 pounds a month. When it was in COVID, it was decided that the minimum survivable income was 2,500 pounds a month. So, I dunno why our, um, benefit system hasn't caught up to, to these levels from five years ago.
[00:14:05] Amy: But, to be an employer that says you're giving enhanced benefit, you only have to go over this very low. Statutory minimum, uh, for men or paternity, that's two weeks of 183 pounds, month a week. So, so all you have to do is go anything over and above that, like give them an extra week, right? And you can say that you are giving enhanced benefits.
[00:14:23] Amy: So I think all the marketing terminology that's used, to, to explain something as a benefit when actually it's not maybe necessarily a great benefit or if you put to break it down and communicate it transparently, people might be like, oh, well that's not actually that good. Um, so I talked about that in my, um, in my article as well.
[00:14:39] Dan: Yeah, There was some, some great numbers there. Um, weird question, but what's, what do you think is the root cause of this?
[00:14:48] Amy: I, I think that's a really good question. And again, like that's, um, I think it has a lot to do with how organizations can be really, really siloed. and perhaps as you move into different parts of an organization, individuals have different KPIs, different criteria around their decision making. Um, so one example of this.
[00:15:09] Amy: Is something that I deal with quite, quite a lot. Um, so if you're dealing with perhaps the C-suite or the real decision makers of a business, they really understand that maybe sometimes you pay more to get a better return. if you were then to sort talk to their recruiters, what a lot of recruiters like to do is find people who don't really know their worth. They're a bit under experienced, so they will then. Find someone who they can pay as little as possible to get into the role.
[00:15:35] Amy: And so that shows straight away that there might be a disconnect between what the C-suite actually wants to deliver and how the recruiting team of A KPI to work together. and again, you know, you've got marketing coming into it and marketing saying, well, actually we don't have a great, we don't have a competitive salary.
[00:15:51] Amy: We actually know we don't. So what can we say instead? And you end up with this, all this nonsense about queer pizza nights and bringing your dog to the office because it doesn't actually cost a company anything to do. So for me, it's all part of the same bigger picture.
[00:16:05] Pia: That implies that we're not really doing things for the right reason.
[00:16:08] Amy: Yeah, and I think, um, I think when you think about, dignity and you think about inclusion in 2025, I actually think it's harder in the corporate world now than it was when I was 16 and 17 starting out my first office jobs, because I. Back then, certain individuals had a lot less oversight and a lot more freedom to voice their genuine opinions, their maybe bigoted opinions.
[00:16:31] Amy: But then the thing is, everybody at least knew who they were and how still with them and who, how, you know, whether to avoid them. And I think the problem in, in 2025 is that. Everyone's saying one thing and doing and another. And it's actually a lot more confusing for those of us who are at the kind of, uh, receiving end of that, that treatment.
[00:16:48] Amy: And it's people wanting to go to the end result of making it look like they're running a great organization or that they are inclusive, but actually they're not. They just wanna do the marketing and skip to the end result without delivering on, on the good.
[00:17:00] Dan: that, that's fascinating. Talk a bit more about that, Amy. So people. back in the day as it was, it was maybe 20 years ago. is this, this all sort of used to a say what you wanted
[00:17:09] Amy: Yeah, well, um, I mean, when I, I, I'm, I'm older than I look, right? So my first office job, you could still smoke inside, right? So you could walk into the chair's office and he'd be sitting there with a cigarette or a cigar and he'd call you darling and he'd try and take you out for lunch and he'd be like, outright, outrageously flirting.
[00:17:26] Amy: But there was no real risk there, right? It was just how those guys behaved and everyone could see them coming a mile off. What's a lot more insidious now is. You know, I'm personally aware of a number of men in my network who call themselves allies, but then off the record, say things like, they would never hire pregnant women because it would cost their business money when she goes on leave.
[00:17:42] Amy: And that's just a much more confusing, I'd rather take a dodgy, odd flirt than, you know, some insidious misogynist. It's, it's, it's the reality of, you know, what I've seen over my career.
[00:17:52] Pia: Made his decisions around de and i, diversity, equity and inclusion, and then how quickly the tech bros, um, all lining up to kiss his bottom at the, you know, when he was in inaugurated.
[00:18:07] Dan: and they rolled over.
[00:18:09] Pia: Just completely rolled over and, and the number of companies that did that I think was actually like, what was that about? And who made those decisions?
[00:18:18] Amy: cause that's ultimately what they wanna do. Right? Ultimately. They're bigots, but there's a very specific type of bigot that I've had that misfortune to deal with quite a few times through my career. And it's, they wanna do really crummy things, but they also wanna be made to feel good about doing really, really crummy things, probably by the person they're harming actually.
[00:18:35] Amy: So I've got a really good example of this firsthand, which was when I was working for a tech company during the pandemic and, um, I was their CMO when the Black Lives Matter. Blew up. Um, and I remember, I think it was the day after the murder, um, and I was on the phone to my best friend, she's mixed race, and she was in tears.
[00:18:55] Amy: I was on the phone to her for an hour. She was in tears about her brother going out into London. Like that's the impact that it had on her. and I felt very serious responsibility that. We need to all be doing something about this. and in my professional capacity at this particular organization, I said, we need to put out a statement in support of, this is my job as your comms person.
[00:19:17] Amy: Um, and the CEO At that moment, I realized he was a massive racist. Um, he refused point blank to support movement. and then only as major banks started, it's probably took more about a week, right? Major banks started making their own statements and things like that. but even then he still wouldn't make any sort of statement.
[00:19:37] Amy: And, um, after about a week, he terminated my contract. He said, This is unacceptable behavior. When all I had done is said to him, we need to put out a statement about how we support the movement. and at the time I was contracting 'cause I had short runway, I was being offered a permanent role in the organization and equity.
[00:19:55] Amy: But 'cause we were in this weird gap where I. They had a bit of bridge funding. He put me on a contract to do the work rather than on the employment contract he'd promised, and the equity promised, so I said. that's disgusting. Like, you can't, you can't get rid of me for recommending for doing my job, And then I said, well, what about the fact that I've been working on a low rate, on a contract for however many months with the understanding that I'm getting this permanent job and equity? And he said, oh, no, no, you're not gonna get any of that.
[00:20:24] Amy: And so I just sat there in silence and he started saying to me, oh, but we're okay, aren't we? We're good. You know, you're gonna be fine. And I wish you all the best for the future. And I was just sitting there thinking. I know you want me to say, oh yeah, we are good, we're fine. Like he wanted to do simultaneously treat me in this disgusting way. And then he wanted me to make him feel better about it.
[00:20:44] Amy: Um, and I obviously, obviously didn't do that. I just, in fact, I just stopped talking and he didn't know what to do. He ended up just hanging up the phone. Um, but yeah, like this is a perfect example of the, the behaviors you're talking about is that they still wanna do all this crummy stuff, but they still wanna be seen as the, the good guy. And it's, it's really quite shocking how common that particular set of behaviors is.
[00:21:05] Dan: lightnings her a little bit, you know, the Michelin Webb quote, sort of sketch of the two Nazis, and one of them saying, are we the baddies? I think there is a piece here, which is people can't believe it despite what their actions are, that they're actually the bad, bad guy and they just want that little bit of, oh yeah, she was fine about it.
[00:21:23] Dan: She, you know, we, we ended on good terms and good on you for
[00:21:26] Dan: stonewalling.
[00:21:28] Amy: also, you're playing it forward, right? Because if you are. If you're letting them off the hook, it empowers them to do it again and again and again. And when I, when I mentor women who are going through things in the workplace, that's just as much their concern as whether they get, you know, their settlement or they're like, if I don't do something, the next person after me is, um, gonna experience this.
[00:21:49] Amy: So that's why it's, you know, it's so important to try and. Choose your react. You know, you can't control when things like that happen to you, but you can control how you, you respond and the action you take. And it doesn't have to be an immediate action either. You can, you can bite your, your time a little bit. So yeah, that was, that's a really specific example of
[00:22:07] Pia: What's causing companies not to be really embracing some of these policies as they should.
[00:22:14] Amy: I think there's a lot, lot to say there. You know, if you'd asked me this 18 months ago, I would say it's really just a money thing. It's more expensive to do the right thing. Um, and I think probably for a lot of corporate decision makers, unless someone's. Saying, oh, you can only get access to pitch for this piece of, um, work, 'cause our procurement policy states that you need to do X, Y, and Z. They're really not gonna think about it.
[00:22:35] Amy: I think also it's a lot to do with. People not thinking about something until it really affects them. So there's a really interesting piece of work that was published in The Economist that shows that when men have daughters, they become more liberal and they start to think differently because all the things that didn't affect them as a single guy, they're now seeing the world through the lens of their their daughters.
[00:22:53] Amy: So that's, um, and actually if you dig into that a little bit more as well, it's one of the leading causes of divorce is men and women disagreeing about how to parent girls because. Women wanna give them the freedom and the men are like, oh my God, this is the world they're going into. This is disgraceful.
[00:23:07] Amy: So there's, there's, that's a really good example of that in practice. But I think now obviously we are living in, um, post-Trump version two. And, um, what I'm hearing a lot, um, from my, my corporate network is that Trump, being Trump and doing what he has with DEI in the last few months is actually giving a lot of people permission to do the bigoted things that they wanted to do anyway.
[00:23:31] Amy: So for example, I was speaking to someone who is at a top executive search, company, and I said to him, privately, I said, look, I'm feeling that I'm applying for lots more stuff and I'm not getting it, and the ratios have dropped and I'm seeing it across my network.
[00:23:45] Amy: A lot of women that I know in the C-suite are saying this to me, and he said, yeah, absolutely. Like it's happening. Like we're putting just as many female. CVS through processes and no one, no one's hiring women at the moment. Um, and it's just that rollback. Um, I think also there was some data released recently that said only 38% of management roles went to women of open vacancies in Q1.
[00:24:07] Amy: Um, so I think we are just seeing certain decision makers being given permission to do the sort of nefarious stuff they wanted to do anyway. And that's, just, I don't really have the words to articulate how I feel about that. Having 20 years experience and suddenly feeling that it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean anything because of what's a hit. They're over the pond. You know, like it just, I can't, I can't say how devastating that is for me and for the women that I know.
[00:24:31] Dan: And, and I saw, uh, uh, something recently about all, all male shortlists are back in the city of London, and it's, as you
[00:24:38] Amy: Well, I mean, they probably didn't
[00:24:39] Dan: didn't go completely, but at least as you say, there was some sort of control on that. Some sort of, at least some attempt to, uh, some need to at least show some attempt, but it's, it's gone.
[00:24:51] Dan: You know, I, I read a little while ago, I read Stephen Pinker's book, uh, where he's talks about things can take a step back, but basically things become better. Over time, don't worry. And ever since I've read that book, things have got progressively worse.
[00:25:04] Dan: So things like D and i initiatives, you think, okay, that's good, that's good. But actually it's sort of instead of people adopting them and saying, yes, I'll do this, people are just faking. Their behaviors, but continuing, and as soon as this excuse comes along in the form of the, the occupant of the White House, oh, great. Don't have to, don't have to seem like a good person. Well, it's all,
[00:25:27] Amy: I I think these things go in cycles, right? And I remember when I was five or six, my family used to bring me up watching war films, world War two films, and I, my, my parents were just really worried that I, I wouldn't grow up. Thinking how terrible it is that this could happen again. And I think, you know, lots of commentators have said over the years that the further it removed we are from the generations that experienced that firsthand, the more likely it is we were gonna have another significant global event like that.
[00:25:53] Amy: And I think looking at, um, the world now, like that's something that's probably in our lifetimes in the future. but I think one of the things I talk about a lot is that. Sometimes you read the news and sometimes you, uh, look online and you see all these terrible things happening and you just feel like you haven't got any power.
[00:26:10] Amy: And I, I don't think that's true. Like, as an individual, we all have choices that we can make every single day, whether to act with integrity and whether to be someone that calls out these problems or whether we just put our heads down and look, look the other way. And I think, you know, we can all choose who we wanna be in the face of these like dreadful circumstances.
[00:26:27] Dan: That's actually a good segue into a question I, we normally ask sort of towards the end, but I think it's probably worth some extra time, which is, what are the practical steps that we should, how should we act in this, this world to at least try to do something?
[00:26:39] Amy: I personally think it's a lot about what you can do at a grassroots level. Um. You know, I think sometimes you've got. Really big organizations like Amnesty and Greenpeace and Save the Earth, and you look at what they're doing and they're across so many things, you don't really know what they're actually moving the dial on.
[00:26:54] Amy: And I've always been a bigger fan of working with much smaller charities that choose one thing and then give global attention to one small. and then they succeed because it's like a disproportionate level of, um, attention for a small thing and they succeed and they move on and they do the next thing.
[00:27:08] Amy: And I think that way you can sometimes feel like you are having it having an impact. Um, but for me, in my day to day life, you know, it comes back to this feeling of. Not even responsibility, but an obligation that as a woman who was educated at the state school that has children with additional needs, who now realizes that I'm neurodivergent and I'm in all these rooms, that there's just absolutely no way on paper I should have managed to get in and somehow I managed it.
[00:27:31] Amy: It's my obligation that I bring in others with me. And I, I relentlessly, um, do that all, all the time. And I, I work with a, a corporate law firm and they, you know, and I, I really cherish my relationship with them because they know exactly who I am and they still let me come to all their events, which is probably more than what most.
[00:27:49] Amy: Most law firms would do, but I'm constantly finding people, especially people from underrepresented backgrounds. I'm just like, get them on an internship this summer, please. And I'm just constantly throwing all sorts of individuals that would probably never get a chance to go and do their internship.
[00:28:02] Amy: And I, and you know, that's just one example of how I can use what little power and influence that I I have. And I just think if you aggregate. That you touch so many lives individually, but you can have a real, real impact on those people, um, if you choose to choose to do that. And just giving time, um, giving advice, boling confidence, opening doors, that's, that's how I think you can, you know, you should never underestimate the aggregate of marginal actions.
[00:28:28] Dan: Yeah. Nice. That's, that's optimistic. So I mean. It occurs to me, Amy, in an organization, you, you could be seen as being a, a bit difficult because you're raising, do you know what I mean? You're raising these things. Um, and that's challenging for
[00:28:42] Pia: because they're not, they're not as easy as pizza on a
[00:28:45] Dan: exactly, it's dead easy to get pizza in, but you are actually challenging some and speaking up and saying things.
[00:28:49] Dan: And it's tricky when people have, um. You know, in this precarity you of not, not sure if they'll keep their job. And now you are a difficult employee. it takes a lot of courage to do, to do what you do
[00:29:01] Amy: Yeah, I mean, it was easier when I was younger, you know, and if things went wrong, I. My life was a lot smaller. I could just go off traveling for a bit or lie on someone's so see on someone's sofa. As I've become a mother and life's got a lot bigger and responsibilities have got a a lot bigger, I've definitely felt myself in precarious situations, certainly a couple of times in a really degrading and unacceptable situation in a corporate environment.
[00:29:26] Amy: But the choice is speaking out or you know, literally my family can't eat, you know, or I lose my house, or, you know, so that, that's been very, very difficult, to reconcile. Um, and I would say the only difference that usually happens, but it takes a bit longer, um, to play out.
[00:29:41] Amy: I think the way I look at it is that I'm very sure of who I am and I know what I want and what I don't want. And there's 7 billion people on earth. And if I can't find any to work for that, share my passion and my ethics, then that's very depressing. I think what I've tried to do is put myself out there to cut through the noise.
[00:30:02] Amy: Um, I drive headhunters mad 'cause they ask me what I want and I say, oh, you know, I'm sector agnostic and I'm this and that agnostic. But actually I don't work with dickhead so it only leaves me with about. Five to 10% of the market to work with. And you know, I actually say that.
[00:30:17] Amy: Um, and you know, the thing is, when you are working as hard as I do in a C-suite, you, you are working all the hours, you're making lots of compromises. You know, I've got very young children, so I, I have some really heartbreaking compromises to make, but am I gonna make those compromises for a dickhead and doesn't listen to me and treats me like crap? No, like, it's a non-starter.
[00:30:35] Amy: So for me it's been about being outspoken and working out that probably a lot of people that see my profile or get my my bump go across their desk will go, God, she's a nightmare. I'm never gonna touch her. But that's fine 'cause they're doing me a favor. But it does take, it's taken a long journey, a lot of great mentorship and a lot of confidence to, um, have that attitude, especially when the economy and the global political situation is what it is. But I just think. Say life's too short. I've got one life and I'm not gonna waste it on people that aren't worthy of my my time. Whether that's professionally or personally.
[00:31:06] Pia: It's so important to speak up, I think, but it does, you know, it, it is always a bit of a personal risk in the, in that, in that sense as well.
[00:31:14] Amy: But I think also, again, like me being able to say that, articulate that in a public forum gives. A bit of strength and power to others. you know, a lot of women in my network have been talking about how we're being shadow banned on, on LinkedIn and things like that. And I've got to the point now where I might get more WhatsApp messages about a post that I've put up than I would get likes or interactions on the post.
[00:31:35] Amy: And it's because the things I'm talking about, people are too scared to be seen to support them or align with them. And that's really horrible state of the world. But actually that post has allowed someone to speak up or given their notice or apply for something, or that's changing their life, that's changing their trajectory, and that for me is more important. Right.
[00:31:54] Dan: that is a worrying sign, isn't it? That sort of what's off the, off the platform. Even WhatsApping you, instead of putting out a perfectly reasonable, you know, supporting a perfectly reasonable point of view about these things that you are saying, but it's, as you say, it's, it's, now it's. People have got now got permission to actually take, uh, action against those people even in a subtle
[00:32:18] Amy: Confidence as well. Like they can see that, you know, I've done this, that and the other, and I'm still, I'm still here. and
[00:32:24] Amy: I think, you need someone to guide you through and tell you what's on the other side of those really difficult. Some of the stuff that I've mentored people through is the kind of stuff that should be in, in the New York Times, you know what I mean?
[00:32:35] Amy: Like, it's, it's not okay and they need when you are in that, it's so hard to see perspective. Um, and that's where, especially as women, we can pull together and give each other a bit of a push and a bit of faith.
[00:32:48] Dan: Um, well strength your elbow. Uh, Amy. Uh, it's, it really takes so much courage. I mean, you see the high profile cases like Harvey Weinstein and you see how hard it is to stand against this, against power. So any, any support you. Give is, uh, so important. Uh, but Amy, tell, lets, why don't we sort of, I dunno if you're gonna lighten things up or leave us depressed, but Let's see if we can go into the, your media recommendation. So, as you know, we do this in a very broad way. What's, uh, what podcast, book, anything else would you recommend?
[00:33:20] Amy: I'm, I'm not really a, uh, I'm not really a book called Podcast Girl. 'cause having small children, it's like impossible to weave that into my life. But we do a lot of box sets when they're kind of asleep on us, whatever. Um, and actually. I wanna recommend my second favorite TV show, which actually needs, I need to acknowledge my first, my first favorite succession. And I'd say, watch that. If you wanna see how not to lead, right? Like that is. Just like the perfect flip it right. But my second favorite is probably quite, um, it's not very well known. It's called Holt and Catch Fire and it was on Prime about 10 years ago. And it follows people going through, I guess like the tech boom of like, uh, kind of IBM and then. Other software companies.
[00:34:05] Amy: And, one of the protagonists is Donna and she's a very, very smart, sort of like, um, mathematician. And she becomes this, the CEO of the software company and she's doing it as a mom. And, um, I just feel so much affinity with Donna. I feel like me and her would be best friends.
[00:34:23] Amy: And then I would say like. Towards the end. I don't wanna give it to spoilers, but she creates like a network of all the power women in Silicon Valley and she gives a speech. for me that's like perfect leadership. And again, it made me cry actually when I watched it because I just thought, and I should say the whole thing set in like the seventies and eighties.
[00:34:41] Amy: I think it maybe goes right through to nineties. I'm not really sure. I need to watch it again, but. At the end, she gives a speech, to her network of Silicon Valley Power women, and it made me cry my eyes out because I think this is set in the late eighties or early nineties. But you could the point why it was so clever that it could still stand now, like women having exactly the same challenges and degrading experiences as they were then when that was supposed to be set.
[00:35:05] Amy: So I just thought it was, yeah, it's one of my favorite, um, favorite TV moments, so I definitely recommend committing to that series. It's very, very good.
[00:35:13] Dan: Perfect. I've never heard of it, so I, I've certainly never heard of it. It sounds amazing. And yes.
[00:35:18] Amy: If, if you work in tech as well, like there'll be so many parts to it that ring, you know, familiar and it's kind of a sexy time in tech and Silicon Valley and all the fashion and all the, you know, and it's got like old computers in and like, you know, probably like an amstrad and first Max and stuff. Um, so yeah, it's really, really for someone like me who's in that world and a super geek anyway, like I just absolutely
[00:35:39] Dan: touch of the geek. Yeah. Perfect. And um, yeah, so the how, how to and with succession and how not to guide. So the two good pairing. Good pairing. Um, well Amy, thank you so much for being on We Not Me Today. Depressing and inspiring at the same time. Absolutely fascinating. And thank you for diving into these, using your unique brain to sort of really dive into these things, but also importantly to take action in the world, um, for the sake of everyone actually.
[00:36:06] Amy: Thanks guys. Pleasure to be
[00:36:11] Dan: You know, 20 or so years ago, um, when I was at, um, at supervision in the uk, um, in the organization run actually by Marcus and Tom, who we've had on this, um, in this podcast, we were shortlisted for the Sunday Times, best places to work. And um, so I've sort of been through this exercise as a sort of senior leader in an organization that was, that was awarded and at the time, I have to say, I thought.
[00:36:35] Dan: This is great because I really did feel there was a lot of work went into making it a genuinely good place to work. Um, as we heard on a previous podcast, anyone wants to go back to hear it really building all the conditions for success. Um, vast majority of people were female.
[00:36:50] Dan: We had a call center as well. So the type of work is very flexible. We had a female black HR lead and she was. Brilliant. Um, so I've always felt that everything, to be honest with you, my awareness of. Equity and inclusion and diversity was some way from mature at the time, but I have a basic set of values that sort of would've sort of scanned if there was something bad going on.
[00:37:13] Dan: Um, but I, I think I've learned a lot in the intervening period, but that seemed to me that everything was sort of sorted. But that was a slightly. Naive view, really, and it's really interesting taking a magnifying glass to these things where the surface, as Amy says, looks nice, but actually what's the reality underneath of these organizations?
[00:37:34] Pia: And also, you know, how are they setting themselves up to get the badge on the bottom of the email block? Best places to work. I mean, one of her, Her gripes was that an organization who really was on the best place to work? Liz had a 45% Gender pay gap.
[00:37:51] Dan: Which clearly is not in the criteria,
[00:37:55] Pia: no.
[00:37:56] Dan: yeah, you're right. I think that's the other thing is sort of if you think, oh, we're going to suddenly sort of see which are great places to work and we're going to do some really good measures, actually. There is a, I'm sure there's an industry around this and a, and certainly people in the company saying all, what are the criteria?
[00:38:11] Dan: How do we get, as you say, how do we get this on our, uh, footer? But Sunday times, the Times organization has not included gender pay gap and things like that. They sort of really the things that are gonna move society on. Um, and it's a lot rather more superficial and performative, I think is for, well, that's what Amy's research shows.
[00:38:32] Pia: And, and similarly, uh, ethnic minorities, you know, that, that, that that's not included. So out of 530 companies, fewer than 10 me meaningfully mentioned race at all. So we're sort of getting all the, we're getting all the sugar coating, but we're not really getting what the, we're not really getting the basics.
[00:38:52] Dan: It. We are getting the sizzle and not the sausage. And I, and the, the, the sausage, uh, is, you know, I think if anyone's listening to this, I'm sure they're not, but sort of thinking, oh, diversity, equity, inclusion, so outta date, now we can move on
[00:39:06] Dan: a reminder. These things are a good for business. They're actually great for the bottom line, but also obviously, what sort of society do we want? Do we want a society where we're excluding people? And I, I can't remember, we've talked about this before, but DEI programs that have been slammed by Trump, um, and sort of really we've seen people, some companies perhaps sort of invertebrate companies, sort of reversing all of those things.
[00:39:33] Dan: 65% of those benefits in the states went to white women. So, do you know what I mean? This is a, this is a gender thing, um, that is being really eliminated. So, so this is really setting women back hugely, um, let alone the other 35%. So, um, yeah, just a little sort of, just to be clear, these things are, are really important on so many fronts and, uh, and not assessing them is a, in the, when you're, when you're praising workplaces is, um, is a real miss.
[00:40:02] Pia: going back to if you follow the money, why. this is happening. Amy talks about that their lists exist to promote the organizations that, that heavily invest in PR and have healthy advertising budgets in the Sunday times.
[00:40:18] Pia: but it has become a really, it's definitely become, um, a prize that, that many organizations are seeking to follow. But it, but it is important to see who the sponsor is and why they're doing it and what their aim is.
[00:40:31] Dan: Yeah. No, absolutely. It's, it's, it's sort of, it does stink. Uh, it must be said. And, uh, yeah, and, and meanwhile, yeah, you see sort of workplace culture is, is slamming into reverse. Um, so as leaders, what can our listeners do? I think there's a, there's a piece which is to be quite careful about these.
[00:40:49] Dan: These results actually and, um, and be, be forensic about them, um, but also fine to go for them. But what are the fundamentals? And um, and to, to really keep an eye on that. And this is a huge cultural thing that it was sort of a little bit of a depressing conversation in a way because, you know that, that she, that, you know, Amy's saying that she preferred the sort of cigar smoking, sort of Randy, um, executives of old to these sort of skilled.
[00:41:17] Dan: People who can glide through and pretend, um, not, you know, not to be like that. And so fascinating. So it's really deep, it's deeply held this and really hard to shift, I think. Um, but it is a question of championing it.
[00:41:30] Pia: Which is probably why de and I failed for so many organizations. The moment somebody said it's, you know,
[00:41:36] Dan: Yeah. Boom. It's gone. Great. I don't have to, yeah, exactly. Uh,
[00:41:39] Pia: So I didn't become a principle.
[00:41:41] Pia: it became a sort of almost a form of sort of its own self marketing.
[00:41:44] Dan: Yeah. And all you have to do is pretend not to be a creep, but you can still be a creep, um, sort of thing. Yeah. So, which is sort of what she was talking about. So anyway, I think this is, puts us on high alert. I think p as far as you know, where we are is just not to, is, you know, and this is why her, her LinkedIn post just pushed, sort of stabbed into my consciousness, which is, and I've been complacent about this to be honest.
[00:42:05] Dan: I've always thought, oh, that's, that's good. That's a good thing actually. No, this is, we've gotta be very. Skeptical, unfortunately. 'cause as you say, there's a money drive. There's money driving this and a reason to, for it to be, um, distorted. So I think we all have to be really just forensic about what's actually going on here. So. Great. Uh, warning, warning call from, from Amy. What a wonderful conversation.
[00:42:27] Pia: Good conversation. Good to unearth it. It was lifting the lid a little bit.
[00:42:31] Dan: And Amy, there is a warrior. We've had a few on this show where, you know, she is fighting for the, uh, she's, she's on the right side of and, uh, fighting away. So anything we can do to support her and do our bit is a good thing.
[00:42:45] Dan: But that is it for this episode. We are not me as supported by Squadify. Squadify helps any team to build engagement. And drive performance. You can find show notes where you are listening now and also at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends, particularly this important e episode. Um, We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye for me.
[00:43:08] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.