The Importance of Long-Lasting Business Relationships with Frank Fisher - Ep 169

How essential are strong business relationships and how can geopolitical tensions shape chemical industry business strategies? Host Victoria Meyer sits down with Franklin Fisher, founder and CEO of South Carolina Chemical, and a seasoned expert in international sourcing, contract manufacturing, and supply chain management this week on The Chemical Show®.

Frank shares his insights on the pressing issues affecting the chemical industry today, from the impact of geopolitical tensions on global supply chains to the practical and ethical considerations of reshoring operations. The conversation also navigates through his career journey, spotlighting the role of empathy in leadership and the unexpected freedom of running his own business. 

Be sure to tune in to learn more about the following topics this week:

• How Frank continued seeking challenges to develop academic and professional success
• A new company born in retirement: South Carolina Chemical
• Assessing a company’s competitiveness in a global marketplace
• Is regionalization a trend or a long-term solution?
• Leading a big enterprise versus leading a small enterprise
• The importance of empathy in leadership
  
  

Killer Quote: "The true power in business isn't just about finding the lowest cost; it’s about building and sustaining relationships that can weather the storm of global uncertainties. It’s about understanding that sometimes, the value of a partnership goes beyond the price tag."

 – Frank Fisher

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Creators & Guests

Host

Victoria Meyer

Host of The Chemical Show; founder and President of Progressio Global

What is The Chemical Show: Executive Interviews on Leadership, Sustainability, Supply Chain, Digitization, Customer Centricity and more and key trends?

Welcome to The Chemical Show™, where chemicals mean business. Featuring interviews with industry executives, you’ll hear about the key trends impacting chemicals and plastics today: growth, sustainability, innovation, business transformation, digitalization, supply chain, talent, strategic marketing, customer experience and much more.

Episodes are published every Tuesday.

Hosted by industry veteran Victoria Meyer, The Chemical Show brings you the latest insights into the industry. You will hear from leading industry executives as they discuss their companies, business, markets, and leadership. You’ll learn how chemical, specialty chemical, petrochemical, material science and plastics companies are making an impact, responding to the changing business environment, and discussing best practices and approaches you can apply in your business.

voiceover: A key component of the
modern world economy, the chemical

industry delivers products and
innovations to enhance everyday life.

It is also an industry in transformation
where chemical executives and

workers are delivering growth and
industry changing advancements while

responding to pressures from investors,
regulators, and public opinion.

Discover how leading companies
are approaching these challenges

here on the chemical show.

Join Victoria Meyer, president
of Progressio Global and

host of the chemical show.

As she speaks with executives across the
industry and learns how they are leading

their companies to grow, transform, and
push industry boundaries on all frontiers.

Here's your host, Victoria Meyer.

Victoria: Hi, this is Victoria Meyer.

Welcome back to The Chemical Show
where Chemicals means Business.

Today I am speaking with Frank Fisher, who
is the founder and CEO of South Carolina

Chemical and Fisher Specialty Advising,
and is also the COO of Duralayer LLC.

If you know Frank, you might have thought
that he was ready for retirement after

having a really great career at both
Dow and Milliken, but it's obvious

that he still has a lot of energy and
passion for the chemical industry,

which we are going to hear about today.

So.

Frank, welcome to The Chemical Show.

Frank: Thank you for having me, Victoria.

Looking forward to the conversation.

Victoria: Absolutely.

Really great to have you here.

So you started your career as
a chemist with a PhD at that.

And then moved into business
and procurement roles and

really never looked back.

So maybe tell us a little bit
about that shift in your career.

Even what sparked your interest in
chemicals and then led to that shift.

Frank: It was a very
non traditional route.

And so I'll back all the
way up to the beginning.

The high school I went to, not
a lot of people went to college.

I did not intend on going to college.

This was kind of a machine shop town.

My mother and father didn't go to college.

My father expected me to take over the
small family business, and that was that.

Um, I was walking down the hallway,
the guidance counselor came up and

grabbed me my junior year and asked
me where I was going to college.

I said, I never really thought about it.

He goes, uh, your marks are so high, you
can get a scholarship almost anywhere.

Why don't you consider that?

So I went in his office
and we talked about it.

And then I said, well, I was the senior
class president the next year, very

outgoing debate squad, that kind of thing.

So why don't I become a lawyer?

That sounds like fun.

So I took my scholarship, head
off to Grand Valley State,

started taking elective classes.

You have to take a science elective.

So I happened to take chemistry.

Didn't do particularly well,
which was kind of a challenge.

So the next thing you know,
I'm taking organic chemistry.

Again, not doing particularly well.

Next thing you know,
I'm a chemistry major.

And I'm seeing it kind of as a challenge
more than a love for chemistry.

So, now I'm graduating from a small
state school with a degree in chemistry.

Now what do you do?

Well, my undergraduate advisor said,
Why don't you consider going to

graduate school and figuring it out?

Oh, and by the way, they'll pay you to go.

Next thing you know, I'm off to
Duke University studying organic

chemistry while there, then I kind
of had the, um, matrix scene, scenes

of the movie matrix, where all of a
sudden everything made sense to Neo

and that all the dots all lined up
and chemistry became fairly simple.

I very much understood it and got into
chemistry kind of in a strange way.

Victoria: Yeah.

alright.

I'm' just going to interject
because people have heard

me tell this story before.

I am a chemical engineering major and
organic chemistry almost killed me.

So at no point in time did anything
about organic chemistry line up.

The other pieces, sure,
but organic, no way.

Of course, which is ironic working
in the chemical industry then

for the entirety of my career.

But as I often like to tell people,
like I'm an engineer, I like the blocks

and the processes and putting it all
together, I don't necessarily need the

molecules, but you, it sounds like.

love and understood those molecules.

Frank: I understood the molecules when
I got into quantum stereochemistry,

and it made sense at the molecular
level why a Diels Alder reaction would

be performed and why it would work.

I'm going, oh, now it makes sense to me.

Okay, so.

Now we'll slide into the business world.

My degree at Duke was
physical organic chemistry.

So kinetics and thermodynamics
went to work for Dow chemical.

I was from Michigan, went back
to the mothership of Dow Midland,

worked in the thermodynamics lab.

So in that position, you're between
the beaker chemist who's invented

something and the chemical engineer,
like yourself, who's designed the plant.

So we're going to do everything
you need from process safety

to keep things from blowing up.

However, I still kind of had
that leadership outgoing nature.

And so through very quick evolution Dow
Chemical was doing a lot of contract

manufacturing only through acquisitions.

So they bought companies that
were doing contract manufacturing.

Some of the chemistry
was a little challenging.

So the next thing you know, I'm
supporting contract manufacturing.

That led to technology transfer at
contract manufacturing that eventually

led to negotiating contract manufacturing
that led to being the global work

process leader at Dow for contract
manufacturing, which eventually led to

category leader at Dow for all of their
contract manufacturing procurement.

So what started as a bench chemist for
a little while doing analytical work

eventually led to the giant global
strategies around outside manufacturing.

And I was much more comfortable
in that space than in the lab.

Victoria: Got it.

Makes sense.

So now today , you've got 35 years
, of experience in the industry,

obviously doing a lot of things.

And of course, working for companies
like Dow and Milliken you get to see.

Great countries.

You get to work around the world and
get a wide variety of experience.

You've now opted to take this and
apply it to South Carolina Chemical.

So tell us a little bit about that.

Frank: Okay, so South Carolina Chemical
was born out of my consulting business.

So when I retired from Millikan,
I lasted roughly one month.

And my wife said, uh, yeah, you're going
to go back to work and do something

because You cannot walk up to me
one more time and say, you're bored.

So I immediately started consulting,
which was fairly easy because I'd been

consulting for years in these jobs.

From out of the consulting, there were
some needs of, can you find chemicals?

Can you source chemicals?

sOme of my companies I
worked with overseas, can you

help me sell my chemicals?

Can

Victoria: Yeah.

So leaning in really to a lot
of your corporate experience

doing some of those same things.

Frank: Exactly.

So interestingly, I've never thrown
away a business card my entire career.

I have thousands of business cards.

I've kept contacts with everybody and try
to maintain really positive relationships.

So what South Carolina
chemical is we find things.

So when people need oddball
materials, I get a phone call.

There's a force majeure.

I get a phone call that's led
to new product development.

Frank, can you get, so I do
sourcing, uh, for companies that

have smaller sourcing organizations.

And from the consulting to the South
Carolina Chemical, we very quickly

figured out how to import, how to manage.

So the companies will just say, can
you just take care of it for me?

we started bringing that in.

As I started working with more
companies, there's still a lot of

manufacturer in this world that
we, I call them undiscovered.

They've only sold within
their own country.

They'd never had a distributor but they're
solid and I know them and I visited

them, they're perfectly comfortable
saying, Hey, can you rep my stuff?

So we aren't two years old and
we've been kind of astonished

at the growth that we've had.

Victoria: Yeah.

So sourcing and distribution and beyond,
I guess is, is contract manufacturing

part of your value proposition today?

Frank: Absolutely.

I work with various companies.

I need to have this made, right?

I've got a long Rolodex of.

Where we can do things.

I also have contract manufacturers that
will say, why can't I get business?

And so we'll work with them
on what's their messaging and

they're not very discoverable.

So I do a lot of contract manufacturing,
a lot of supply chain design.

So the supply chain design is how do you
compete and win kind of on a global stage?

You really have to think in terms
of, you know, total cost of goods at

the location, strategic advantages.

Um, and there's a lot of things
that go into that full design.

So it all comes full circle.

We tend to say yes to everything.

I've got a strong team and took on a
partner for my consulting business.

And so, yeah,

Victoria: That's very cool.

So, you know, one of the things we,
we talked about, I guess, before

the podcast here is just some of the
opportunities and challenges that the

chemical industry is facing today.

What do you see from where you sit?

Frank: Well, the opportunities are largely
around sustainability recycle, renewable.

Now, the opportunities
have a longer time horizon.

It's not going to happen overnight.

Mathematically, it can't happen overnight.

It's just the world's not ready.

The costs aren't ready, but that's
where the opportunities are.

And there's always opportunities
for, for better and more clever.

Right.

There's always a better reaction.

There's always a product
that's got something, I wish

I would have thought of that.

And there's some neat things that come
out every year from creative companies.

So the opportunities still kind of exist.

Okay.

The challenges I see it is world
of business works best when you

have very stable business rules.

I can work in this sandbox.

I can manage this because I
know what's going to happen.

Yeah.

If you get dramatic overnight changes

and some of the more dramatic ones that
came in the tariff 301 overnight, 25

percent duties on imported chemicals.

Victoria: Yeah.

That's significant

Frank: Wow.

That, that was huge.

That was, that was an overnight.

That was a game changer
and immediate rules.

Victoria: Yeah.

Frank: It can still happen.

I mean, just this recently, the
administration doubled the tariffs on

electric vehicles coming in overnight.

So the challenges are trying
to build a business where

the rules can change on you.

And there's some watch outs.

I think the U S market needs to
learn from the old biodiesel days.

To support biodiesel and become energy
independent to some extent, the U.

S.

government was subsidizing biodiesel
to the tune of a dollar a gallon.

Victoria: Yeah.

Frank: A dollar a gallon subsidy,
you could do a lot of biodiesel.

And there were a lot of biodiesel
plants popping up across the U.

S.

Next administration came in.

Yeah, we don't want to
give them that dollar.

Overnight, they went
bankrupt and disappeared.

If you're building a business
case on something that's not

fundamental to earth, fire, and water

Victoria: Hmm.

Frank: And a true customer,
there's some risk.

So that's one of the challenges I see.

Victoria: Yeah.

Well,

and I know certainly a lot of,
uh, companies when we think about,

Sustainability technologies and
investments that support greenhouse

gas reduction, carbon capture, for
instance, would be a great one.

You know, a lot of it.

And I talked to companies that are
like, well, what does the IRA mean?

And what are the tax
advantages that come in?

And I'm, I'm with you on the fact
that to a certain degree, there has

to still be business fundamentals,
because if your only business

fundamental is a tax incentive.

Well, then you need to be able to turn
it on and turn it off pretty quickly.

And so it's hard to make a
significant investment when the

tax advantage maybe even goes away
before you can even start up, right?

Cause let's be honest.

Some of these big investments take three,
four, five, 10 years to start up, they are

not insignificant, , and it's certainly
a challenge, but it's also somehow

striking this balance across the globe
because obviously there's a lot of, um,

uh, different behaviors and different
rules that are taking place depending

on what region you're working in.

So, so maybe let's talk
about that a little bit.

So you've talked about the
importance of global competitiveness.

And, and really we're.

In many ways, we're in a global market.

I would argue that that global markets
are shifting a bit and we can get

to that a little bit, but how does
a company really know that it's

competitive in a global marketplace?

What's important about that?

Frank: The, that's a very good question.

, and we get asked that a lot, right?

You know, because companies
only know what they know.

They only know what they've
been exposed to, especially

small and mid sized companies.

They can sometimes use consultants
for various things, but I

call it looking in the mirror.

And we'll be talking about this
conference coming up in Savannah at

chemicals, America for a company to
look in the mirror, you have to sit

there and say, what am I good at?

Right?

So, and why does my customer buy from me?

And it's some companies have a really
hard time Taking that hard look.

So give an example and kind
of walk you through it.

So you have a customer
who's buying a product.

Are you the only one that
can supply that product?

All right.

Do you have a patent, some competitive
advantage, some IP, if your patent is

going to run out, if other people can
do it and that's your bread and butter,

take a hard look and say, am I winning?

And can I win because I'm
better on raw material sourcing?

I'm vertical when others aren't.

If you have no true competitive
advantage on raw materials, do I have a

competitive advantage on manufacturing?

Do have a fully depreciated plant?

Are my operations better?

Do I have better labor costs?

Okay, so now you can say, okay, so
if my raw materials are okay, my

customer's okay, my manufacturing
is okay, how's my supply chain?

Okay.

Am I have a better service model?

Am I delivering better?

Am I cost of delivery better?

Do I have a good location?

When you, most companies aren't good at
everything, but you better have a strong

competitive advantage in one thing.

And one of the things that used
to be, well, I'll still do it.

And I've trained people to do it.

When I go to a trade show, you're busy.

You're meeting with somebody at
a booth and I'll tell the people

in the booth, I'll say, I want
you to have this conversation.

When I'm walking away, you say, if
Frank buys this from anybody else in

the planet, he's making a mistake.

Victoria: Hmm.

Frank: Tell me what this is.

If you can't answer that question,
you've got some problems.

And some of the answers I get
is we're good at everything.

No.

No, nobody's going to everything
or they would have the dominant

position in everything.

So

Victoria: Well,

and then the other one that's a
very popular answer is people do

business with us because of the
strength of our relationships.

Well, everybody has strong relationships.

You just don't have strong
relationships with everyone.

And it's beyond that.

It's not just relationship.

There's something else going on that
is driving that and you have to really

uncover it because it's, if it's
just quality of relationship, does

that mean that when that salesperson
leaves the, the business goes away?

,
that's pretty scary and that

happens in some markets.

Frank: this is a, it is
a relationship business.

People can really buy into relationships
when the product that they're purchasing

for use is semi immaterial to the
total cost of the good being sold.

We can example of agricultural chemicals.

The money is in the active ingredient.

You can have a relationship for
their surfactants and the carriers.

It's a small percentage, right?

It's still dollars.

You still want to manage it.

When you look at the big picture,
all your emphasis on one thing,

Relationships really make a difference.

Um, then, you know, We'll, we'll touch
on a little bit more of that coming up.

So

Victoria: Yeah.

That sounds great.

One of the things we talked about being
globally competitive and certainly we're

seeing really over the last several
years, and I think everybody thought

it was going to temper and simmer
down and it hasn't, but we've got some

significant supply chain challenges.

from a variety of places, right?

Russia Ukraine war has
caused some, some challenges.

Uh, what's going on in the Middle East
has caused some significant challenges

and even just this relationship between,
I would say the U S and China, but China

and India, China, and other places, right?

So we've got both supply chain
geopolitics and other things going on.

And we're.

I think we're really seeing a focus on
regional businesses and maybe shifting,

you know, somebody said, at one point
said, Oh, the supply chains are shifting

from East West to North South, right?

And, and maybe that's true.

Maybe that's not true.

But do you see that, do you see us
shifting to more of a regional business

or strengthened regional businesses?

And why or why not?

Frank: I see the desire.

I hear the words I've seen
it at the board level.

I've seen it added into strategies.

A few years ago I was at a
conference, largely dictated

on contract manufacturing.

And everyone's excited.

We're going to reshore after COVID,
the exposure of supply chains and the

dependence on foreign countries, what's
all going to come back in next year, the

conference, it was much more tempered.

They expected it to come.

It didn't fully come.

The projects they had started
were kind of getting canceled.

And I'll kind of come to the point.

If you look at a long term, well,
we'll take a look at the stock market.

Over the course of forever, it always goes
up, but it always comes, it's up and down.

So the chemical industry,
globalization, there's a thermodynamic

point it's going to come back to.

So I'll use example of the 80s and 90s.

The, when brick was a strategy,
Brazil, Russia, India, China.

Brazil never really landed because
they had, you know, some business

tariffy things and Russia was Russia.

India had infrastructure, but
China was wide open for business.

When the Western companies first
went to China, the first ones

that went, huge cost advantages.

There were,

right?

So you started, rationalizing some
plants, moving things to China.

Companies that didn't
embrace that strategy.

were losing out in the market because
they were just cost disadvantaged.

So like it or not, everybody
started moving that way.

So this was the push.

You had purchasing departments that
are being called year over year,

your goals, five to 10 percent
cost reductions year over year.

When you had this pull back to
the West, it made perfect sense.

For the, for a lot of reasons.

Yeah.

However, China was
still open for business.

China is kind of in a recession.

China really wants to sell.

They really, really want to manufacture.

They're trying really hard as best they
can to maintain whatever share they

can get for that purchasing manager.

Even though strategically he was
told the board said, go do it.

When it comes to dollars and cents.

Can the business afford to near shore?

Some cases from supply chain that
forcing the reevaluation was brilliant

and they should have been here all along
for others You're kind of going your

math's gonna fail people have short
memories Managers and executives have

short memories at the end of the day.

They're gonna look at that cost
of doing business and say I

Need to have more cost downs.

Are they really going to
stay here some will But

There's still, a pretty heavy
gravitational pull back to low

cost countries that have some
high enough quality product.

Victoria: Yeah.

It's a real dilemma.

I mean, I think it's a it's definitely
a dilemma and of course this is

obviously one of the things that
some of these tax programs are

supposed to help adjust for, right?

To encourage more investment
and business in the U S because

I think There is always a risk.

I see the risk that when you're
chasing the low cost, uh, region,

it, It may not be actually healthy
on a long term basis, right?

So you're chasing today's pennies
and sacrificing tomorrow's future.

And, and, we've seen that
happen in a lot of industries.

We've seen it happen in
the chemical industry.

I think what's going on in
Europe is, um, sad, right?

I think it's sad.

I think a lot of this is policy
driven that ends up actually having

a huge significant impact, not
just on the chemical industry, but

actually on the people in Europe
because they're losing employment,

they're losing economics, et cetera.

So there's a lot of things that go on
and you know, it, it even ties into the

conversations that we sometimes have
around sustainability and green products

and, Oh, everybody wants to, want some
more sustainable, greener product.

Well, sure.

Until it costs a lot more money.

Because let's be honest for, for
many products, for much of the world.

Cheap and cheerful is the way to go.

, and that's what they can afford
and that's what they see.

And it may have a pretty green
label on it that denotes sustainable

or plant based or whatever.

Well, that's great, but I may
not be able to afford to do that.

Or I can only afford to do that on
certain products, but not all products.

So I think this is something that the
chemical industry and its customers.

If I think about all the consumer
products, companies, big and small,

whether it be automotive or, dishwashing,
um, I think this is something that

we're struggling with together.

Not sure where that resolution comes out.

Cause we're still driving down some
paths, but it will, it will come to bear.

So, so let's just talk about, you
know, you've shifted from a big

global companies into a startup.

So what has surprised you about
that in terms of leading, leading

these big enterprises to now
leading a small enterprise?

Frank: I think what surprised me the
most was when you're your own boss

and your responsibility for you,
your employees, your contractors.

I was expecting to have this
huge amount of stress, right?

This was going to be much more stressful.

What I found was it was the most
freeing thing I've ever done.

, I've always been on my
responsibilities, maybe too much.

Um, but at the big companies,
you'd wake up in the middle of

night having a pit in your stomach.

You owe the company this, you have
a deadline, you need to have that.

You understand the big picture.

You've got a big negotiation.

So in the back of your mind,
you always had work, a type of

work, but it was never your work.

Even as much as you bought in,
it was always for somebody else.

When I started my own, it's, we
basically have one general rule

for anybody who works with me.

We started every meeting.

Are we still having fun?

Victoria: Hmm.

Frank: If we're not having
fun, we're going to just,

we're going to shut it down.

So we choose to do what
we want to do to have fun.

It is very low stress.

It is very freeing.

We laugh a lot.

We will say yes to work with
people that we want to work with.

And if we go, I don't think they're,
they fit in our genre, we don't do it.

So I think that the biggest
difference is just kind of going

yeah, it's, it's, it's freeing.

It's kind of fun.

Victoria: Yeah.

I will say, I will agree that
point you made about choosing

who you want to work with.

It is liberating.

Yeah.

Right?

Like sometimes, I mean, you know, this
and I throw this and sometimes you're

like, yep, their money isn't good here.

And you can say that.

Frank: Exactly.

Victoria: You have the liberty of saying
that that's not somebody you want to spend

time with or your business values and
personal values don't meet up very well.

etc.,

Final question here, leadership lessons.

So what characteristics.

Have driven your success or the
success of leaders around you?

Frank: It's a little bit different.

It's kind of personal.

So everybody has.

Who they are.

Um, I've been accused of liking everybody.

I would literally, we were having a
meeting and you know, a salesman came

in who, who might've come across a
little terse and annoying and Oh, I

can't, you know, I can't stand that guy.

I said, I like him.

And they said, your, your opinion is no
good here because you like everybody.

Um, I think the key thing that's
been useful for me and I recommend

for everybody is empathy.

No matter who's working, who you're
working with, who you're working for, take

the time to understand as best you can
why they may be acting the way they're

acting, why they make the decisions they
make and grant them graces and, you know,

allow them to just kind of say, okay, I
don't have to agree, but I understand.

Negotiations critical to understanding
the person sitting across from you

is not your villain or your opponent.

They're just trying to get the best
deal they can for their company.

So the idea of understanding your
people, and then the key thing that

worked for me, and I've been reasonably
successful as a people manager, I

believe is the, the, the DNI catchphrase
bring your whole self to work.

When people come to
work, They bring stuff.

They've got personal challenges.

They've got kids problems with boyfriends
or spouses, and you can't look them in the

eye and say, no, I don't bring that here.

If you work with them to kind of go.

I understand.

I'm listening.

I believe you.

I trust you.

I love you.

It makes a big difference.

It makes a huge difference
in that trust factor.

When you show support for somebody,
when they're down, they'll be

there the rest of the time.

So from the management style, um,
I tend to be very personal, tend to

be involved the, from the diversity
perspective, I have very diverse teams.

I.

I have always pride in myself,
not just diversity of ethnicity

or race or gender; thought.

So when I had contract manufacturing
that Dow chemical, so I had 15 direct

reports, seven of them were not
chemistry or chemical engineers, but

they, what they brought and how they
brought to the services, completely

different approach, incredibly valuable.

The team that I have now.

We are as eclectic a mix as you're
ever going to see, but boy, they

all understand exactly who they are,
why they're there, and how they fit

in the cog, and that makes it fun.

Victoria: That's awesome.

Frank: I'm a big get diversity
wherever you can, and you're good.

Um, And I guess if I look for advice
to anybody in their position, how to

get ahead and future leaders, whatever
job you're given, you have to do

that job to the best of your ability.

It's okay to ask a lot of why's.

Okay.

Why did this come into my inbox and who's
my, who's the product of my work product?

Who's my customer?

Who's taking it?

So you start your first step.

Why do I have it?

Where's it going?

Then keep asking questions.

Why did that person have that?

Eventually you will have a full vision of

every request for an order
and every customer fulfillment

and the entire supply chain.

When you understand where you
fit in the world, it makes a lot

better and you can impact things
and you can look for other careers.

If you just put your head down and never
ask why I'm doing what I'm doing, it's

not very satisfying and it's limiting.

So.

Look and ask and occasionally raise

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Frank: your hand and go
from your perspective.

You think this is great
down here in the trenches?

It's not going to make it

Victoria: Yeah,

Frank: and be loud and kill it early.

So

Victoria: It's great.

Well, great.

Thank you, Frank.

This has been a great conversation.

I've really enjoyed it.

Frank: thank you.

Thanks for having me on Victoria
and look to speak to you again soon.

Victoria: Absolutely.

And thank you everyone for listening.

Keep listening, keep following,
keep sharing, and we will

talk with you again soon.

voiceover: We've come to
the end of today's podcast.

We hope you enjoyed your time
with us and want to learn more.

Simply visit TheChemicalShow.

com for additional information
and helpful resources.

Join us again next time here on The
Chemical Show with Victoria Meyer.