Ep. 83: Street Proof your Martial Art

Author and retired police Use of Force Expert Al Arsenault discusses what it takes to street proof your martial arts. 

 

Travis Bader speaks with Al Arsenault about his new book “Comprehensive Joint Locking Techniques for Law Enforcement” and what led Al to create it. 

 

If you are looking to add some highly useful and innovative tools to your arsenal, or you are seeking to street-proof your martial art, this book is for you.

 

 

https://alarsenaultbooks.com 

https://policejudo.ca 

 

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

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I'm Travis Spader.

And this is the Silvercore Podcast..

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when it comes to police
officers, making arrests.

The difference between cooperative
and uncooperative arrestees is

profound in a world where the optics
of police use of forces under an

increasingly focused spotlight tactics
at police use to expedite arrest

and mitigate injury are essential.

I'm joined by a retired police Constable
use of force expert, non firearm,

weapons, expert, and whole slew of
other accolades who has written the

book, comprehensive joint locking
techniques for law enforcement.

If you're looking to add some highly
useful and innovative tools to your

arsenal or you're seeking to street proof,
your martial arts, this book is for you.

Welcome to the Silvercore
Podcast, Al arsenal.

Thank you, Travis.

It's a pleasure to be here.

I love it.

We're gonna be adding, adding some, uh,
tools to their arsenal with L arsenal.

no pun intended, no pun intended.

Uh, your book's amazing by the
way, I've been reading through it.

It was hard to put down.

I really like the way it's written.

It is, uh, easy to read.

Well, put together tons of graphics
or somebody like myself who really

likes to kind of flip to different
pages and, uh, dive right into things.

I pictures

and arrows

and the pictures and
arrows of how to move and.

Uh, one of the things that I thought was
really neat was in the beginning of the

book, and you're listening off some of the
people who have helped you in your journey

and your process through police judo.

And one of 'em was a letter of praise
from the BC civil liberties association,

unlikely as that may be, um, uh, Michael
Vaughn, uh, she, uh, she was introduced

to us through, uh, retired VPD inspector,
Ken frail, he's our ethics advisor.

And, uh, he says, you
gotta meet this woman.

And ah, I don't want you to do with
BC's civil liberties, you know, no,

and he goes, no, no seriously.

And so, uh, she came out, she
was a delightful, um, lady.

Yeah.

She really respected what we were
doing and she did judo herself.

Oh, really was a real hook.

And uh, she saw what we were doing.

and, uh, she loved it and, uh, she
actually promoted it in their newsletter

and she goes, you know, BC civil liberties
is not all about just bashing police.

We're just calling it like it is.

So if all negative stuff comes across
her desk and that's what, uh, she reports

on, but this, she heard that about this
positive thing that police judo, uh,

what, what it's capable of doing in
terms of, uh, controlling, uh, people

instead of beating them into submission.

And, uh, she had a high
price, uh, for our tactics.

I thought that was pretty neat.

Like of all places you're gonna be, see
something that is going to be, uh, in

support of police force from the BC civil
liberties association, which really speaks

volumes to what it is that you and others
have been doing with the police judo.

Uh, Give me.

I know I've, I've got some background
I've, I've been following the police

judo for a while, but can you just kind
of enlighten me a little bit about how

that came about and, and what it's about

well, it goes back to, uh, well, when
I first signed up, uh, for the VPD

in 79, I was, I was a studying Cutta.

And then by.

Probably by 1986, I was a third
degree black belt in karate.

But, uh, and I was thinking about going
in the, the, um, police academy as a use

of force instructor thinking that, oh,
I've got like five, six years on the job.

I know quite a bit.

Right.

I know nothing from then,
from what I know now.

So I, uh, uh, I ended up
not going at that time.

Instead I took, um, a year's leave of
absence from the police department.

Right.

And, uh, expo, uh, X, Y 86.

Don't miss it for the world.

And you did.

Yeah, I did.

I was a year.

I went traveling.

I, I told the VPD, I want to
take a year's leave of absence.

and they said, no, uh, we don't
give a, year's leave of absence.

We'll give you six months
to finish a degree.

Mm.

And I went, you know, I met with
a deputy chief at the time and

uh, I said, well, we can't do it.

And I says, okay, well, I'll quit.

Right.

He goes, are you serious?

I said, yeah.

And I said, well, there's he
says to me, there's no guarantee,

well, I'll hire you back on.

And I said, that's okay.

Other departments are hiring.

I first class gospel stellar
record up to that date.

And, uh, you top of your class too.

And he came in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was a, I was the, uh, chief's
choice as they called it, the,

the top recruit in my class.

And then I was a police
officer of the year.

That was oh five.

Uh yes.

In the last year of, of, uh, work.

I tell people in my 27 years that's the
first and last years were really good.

So, so it's all about appearances.

starting and finishing strong the
middle of 25 years, quarter of a decade

or a little bit dodgy, but, uh, I'll
leave a good impression anyways, right?

Yeah.

So anyways, I, I took this, I'll
leave absence and I went around the,

the world and looked at different.

I was looking for the ultimate
martial art for police.

Hmm.

And not necessary to pick up techniques
here and there, which I did do.

But, uh, I look, I looked around
and there's a number of things

that police academies were doing.

They were teaching whatever
the instructor knew.

Right.

Cause that's what he's most
comfortable teaching mm-hmm

and it's what he's best at.

And then somehow they had have,
the recruits would have to try

and make it work on the street.

And some of these techniques that they
were teaching aren't aren't necessarily

translatable or easily translatable,
just because if you're a TaeKwonDo

guy and you can kick a knife outta
somebody's hand that I wouldn't

recommend teaching that to recruits.

Right.

So that was a problem.

And then, so somebody in the,
in that gym, the marsh, the, the

training gym should have some.

Expertise or, um, little school
of hard, not maybe, yeah.

Sometimes somebody, they, they should
have, uh, they should have what it

takes to, uh, make this stuff work.

And, and so instead of teaching
what they know, they should

say, what do you need to know?

Mm-hmm . Oh, I'm a, a boxer,
but geez, it looked like you

do a little bit of wrestling.

It looks like you do a
bit of a joint locking.

So I sh so me as the instructor
with the aptitude in martial

arts, I should be learning what
you, I should be teaching you.

Mm-hmm, not, you learn, you I'll
teach you boxing and then you try

and figure out how that translates
into getting handcuffs on somebody.

Right?

So that was a, that was a, a problem.

and of course, uh, trainers become,
or they they're very parochial.

They just teach what
their department teaches.

Mm-hmm and they teach this over
here and, and there's no real or

unified system of martial arts for,
or, um, control tactics for police.

Right.

So there's a number of, uh, problems
like that, that I, that I, that I saw.

And I, I, I came back a bit disillusioned.

I went, ah, darn.

I was looking for something really good.

And so I just kept, uh, so I, I got
outta karate and then I got into,

um, Wu, the Chinese martial arts, uh
Shuja which it's like, uh, throwing

techniques without any groundwork.

Okay.

And.

and, uh, chink the joint locking
techniques and, and, and this and that.

So I did that and I liked
the, the chink quite a bit.

And then, um, it was too
wasn't wasn't direct enough.

It was, it was a little bit airy fairy
for policing purposes and, uh, it's,

it's a marshal it's artistry, right?

Sure.

So, and, uh, so I, I left, obstensibly go
study, uh, ground fighting, uh, because,

uh, Shrek doesn't do any ground fighting.

Mm.

And, um, So I joined, um, judo at the
police station under, well, initially

Tim Lalor and then Brian shipper.

Right.

Uh, took it over, um, Brian
shipper being a civilian.

And, um, I, so I started judo and I
really liked it because, and I thought

out of all the martial arts that I seen.

Judo is probably the most practical,
because you say you are under arrest.

What call, what falls next?

You gotta lay hands on the guy,
especially if he's not being cooperative.

Right.

So, so judo does that word in karate?

You're under arrest.

No, I'm not.

These are striking.

Oh yeah.

So I'm gonna start breaking your
kneecaps and punching, knocking

you out to get you into, uh, cups.

Doesn't look too good.

It doesn't look good.

and, and it's yeah, it's, uh, it's
a hard way to arrest somebody.

So I, I went through that
whole, um, that whole process.

And then I, I came out the other end being
a little bit, um, judo was at the time

was a little bit more still following the
sports mode, even though we got out of the

competition or the instructor, Brian took
it out of the competition mode entirely.

And, uh, but it was still
classic judo being taught.

Two police at a police station.

So it was loosely by name,
only called police judo.

But then I, I end up, um,
retiring in 2006 and I was, might

my own business in Thailand.

Like all good stories happened.

and, um, um, Sergeant Brad faucet, uh,
phone me up and, and, uh, he, him and,

uh, you know, acting Sergeant, I guess
Ken Resk were at the, the police academy

in 2008 and they're having classes of
44, 48 people with the two of them.

So the's much student, teacher
ratio is a bit off there.

And so he got ahold of me and
said, do you want to come back and,

um, be use of force instructor?

And, uh, I said, I'll come back as
a contractor, meaning that when the

students are in the gym, I'll show up,
but I'm, I don't wanna write reports.

I don't wanna, uh, disciplines,
uh, recruits and all that stuff.

I'll just come in and teach you.

But under a couple of conditions, one of
them being, um, I want to be able to help

revamp the training, uh, program because
I was a field trainer before I left.

And, uh, I saw some deficiencies in the
training and he, he said, fair enough.

You know, don't wanna say, oh, you know,
you're contractor to shut up just right.

Relegated to the corner.

We're doing that.

So, um, so that was,
that was a great upon.

And like I say, I get to show up when,
when they're in the gym and, um, and,

uh, yeah, so I, I, I agreed and I
came, uh, taught for less than two

years until the 2010 Olympics came.

Right.

And had a glut of, uh, officers after.

Yes.

And they didn't even need one instructor
at the academy at the, because they had so

many, uh, surplus officers at that time.

Really.

And then, um, so then I, I switched over
to the law enforcement studies diploma.

I was asked to, uh, create three courses.

Uh, these are for people that
want to go into policing.

Sure.

And I had a really strong, uh,
my, my entire career pretty well

was on the street as a, I was in
the CFL club Constable for life.

Okay.

And, uh, I, I, I stuck, uh, to the
street because that was my passion.

And, uh, as a result, Of all that, uh,
I made, uh, almost 2000, uh, criminal

code arrests, like people for offenses.

And then I probably double that
for breaking up fights and breaches

of the piece and arresting drunks.

And is that for your entire career?

Yeah.

Yeah.

27.

So, and, and that's, that's unheard.

That's a, that's a, that's
the top one percentile easily.

Yeah.

For arrest.

I know, I know police officers have
been on the job for 20 years and I

don't think they've made 20 arrests.

You know, you have to have

man just a real passion for what

you're doing.

Well, well, yeah, and then part of
the reason for that is because half

my career was spent working in the
downtown east side, where sometimes

I was resting, uh, three, four
people, 5, 6, 7 people in a night.

Right.

I have to handcuff them to each other
because you that's, you're running out.

Yeah.

I remember one time, uh, my
partner, um, Toby Hinton were in,

in front of the region hotel, and
we couldn't move for two hours.

Like people were coming across the
street to get a, to beg, to be arrested.

They were coming around the
corner, getting arrested they're,

you know, left and right.

And then I was expecting somebody to come
out of a window and expect to be arrested.

We couldn't move.

We had, 'em all sitting down there
like three, four people, and then the

wagon would come in there and somebody
else would stumble around the thing.

And we couldn't, you know,
it's like my goodness.

It was like the black
hole of arrests, you know?

Well, so either a passion.

Perhaps a passion and a
combination for having a nose for,

for that, you know, uh, um,
what is, what is it invention

as the mother of necessity?

So right.

If you look at what we were offered
down there, we had lay hands on many,

many, many hundred thousands of people,
uh, in, in, in the course of my duties

down there and, and, and Toby Hinton
too, spent his whole entire career

down there more than like 23 years, is
that people don't, uh, Deserve to have

their arm broken or their job busted
because, uh, they wanna fight you.

Right.

A lot of times they're, they're mentally
ill, they're on drugs or they're more

fighting themselves than anything.

And sure.

And, um, and after you Wade into this,
um, uh, crucible of chaos and carnage

and it be, it becomes less personalized
when people want to resist arrest.

That's their job.

Their job is to hide the drugs
and run away from the police.

And our job is to catch them.

So, right.

It's nothing personal.

I mean, they're not, they, they
didn't choose to, to, uh, try

and fight with me because of me.

Right.

Um, could have been you or anybody.

Yeah.

Anybody.

Yeah.

So it's just, you know, so you take it
less personally and then it, uh, um,

and just look at it as a, a challenge.

I, I had, I have so many martial arts
skills and it was nice to be able to,

oh, let's kind try this or try that.

It's like a puzzle.

Yeah.

So it's a puzzle.

It needs solving and, um,
as gently as possible.

And you know, I, I, I've had
one use of force, uh, complaint

leveled at me in my entire career.

I actually did a search and I was
surprised for somebody with your

background and your passion and everything
else that nothing shows up in there.

Well, well,

if you search under, I dunno,
harm reduction or through odd

squad, it was, uh, uh, Toby and
I started odd squad back in 1997.

It's it's we it's, uh, we basically
try to educate youth about meaning

about gangs or drugs and gangs, right?

And so that was, we just had our
25th year an, uh, gala anniversary.

So we're still going strong and Toby's
the workhorse behind that, uh, operation.

And then, um, in 2010 we formally
started police judo, right?

Uh, again, asked Toby to, you know, let's,
let's start this new martial art, um,

for policing, because I, I realized that
through my travels around the world, And

through my own experience and judo was
the best base martial art, but it still

was steeped in rules of sport, right.

The street and the street
has no rules of sport.

There's no refs, there's no mats.

There's no ethics.

Yeah.

There's no ethics.

Exactly.

Right.

Exactly.

And morality is just
thrown out the window.

So you, you know, on their end, our end.

Yeah.

We have to stop the sure.

Do tow the line.

Yeah.

We we're, the criminal code
applies to us and they, they

don't even want to hear that word.

So, um, so, so, uh, we, we, we started
police judo as a new martial art in 2010.

And, uh, even though the roots
go back, uh, further, like

even back to my search in 1986.

Right.

Um, you know, so I.

Uh, that that's how police duty evolved.

And it evolved because of the necessity
of laying hands on so many people and,

and doing it in an ethical, uh, manner
in effective manner in practical manner.

So,

well, you've also taught, uh, tactical
communications for that's right.

Government organizations and

yeah, main, mostly
with, um, parks, Canada.

Right.

I've been coast to coast.

I went Pacific rim, national park all
the way up to Halifax and during the,

mostly during the nineties, but I, I
still, uh, teach it, uh, on occasion.

Yeah.

And that's, that's always a, uh, The I
find really interesting because I find

that part of the puzzle very fun as well.

I find both parts of the puzzle, very fun,
but the puzzle of how can we deescalate

through tactical communication and gain

compliance?

I don't even understand the concept
of deescalation really from my

perspective, because I come from, uh,
position I'm an ethical officer, right.

Somebody's trying to, uh, you
know, wants to fight with me.

So I just don't, uh,
knuckle down on the guy.

Uh, uh, I mean, uh, to me it's
just like a, well, I'm already,

you know, he's he's, I, he can't,
uh, deescalation is not a verb.

Mm.

I can't deescalate someone.

Mm.

I can control the factors
that I bring into the Al the

altercation or interaction.

Right.

But I, I, I, uh, it's almost the, I
almost feel insulted that I, I have

to take, you know, or I'd be asked
to take a, a course in deescalation.

I go, well, no, I don't start off high.

It's like tactical communication.

Right.

You start off, uh, slow.

Right.

And, and you go in deeper and deeper.

And then, uh, you get, you get to
the, the ultimate, whatever your

bottom line is, you get there.

Right.

And that's the way I've always done it.

So when people are saying, well, why you
think I'm coming in, guns are blazing.

And then I have to, I have
to deescalate the situation.

I can do with myself, but I
can't do with the, the person

I'm dealing with necessarily.

Cause if they don't wanna play
that game, you can provide

them the options.

Exactly.

But it's their choice

at the end.

So, but so this deescalation
concept, maybe some people need.

To know that or be reminded of
just because he's all jacked up.

Doesn't mean you have to
go exactly where he is.

You can, you, you know, you can
start, uh, off a little more,

uh, gentler or slower or right.

Or more, more tactically, uh, slowly.

But I, I, I don't like, I don't like that.

Uh, deescalation, it, it, it just,
it comes from an assumption that

police the connotation behind.

Yeah.

The connotation of the police
are always gonna be heavy

handed.

So yeah, no, I don't like that.

And you know, when I say it, I mean,
how you can deescalate the situation

or the individual by perhaps providing
em those tools so that they can make

the right decision before that's right
before, before it, before it gets to

a point where you, you reduce those

options options, which is the
basis of tactical communications.

You're thinking for them, like, they'd be
thinking three or four days down the road,

right after they've gotten outta jail and
they've got their, uh, court dates set.

And, uh, because they're angry,
they're drunk, they're UN drugs,

they're enraged or whatever.

Right.

Uh, at the situation is.

Just too much for them to,
uh, handle, uh, rationally.

Mm.

And so that's what the essence of
tactical communication is saying,

oh, you can slow down here.

You know, think, think about this.

This is the reason why I'm asking
you to do what you're doing.

You're setting contacts.

And then, then you're presenting
options saying, you can go down this

road, this road, this road, and this
is what each of them looks like.

And this is what the end of the road
looks like for that mm-hmm . And

then finally confirming doesn't
does know mean no, like, or is

there some conditions that, that.

You know, you you'd like attached to it
now they might say, yeah, kiss my ass.

Well, that ain't gonna
happen, but it might be.

Yeah.

I, before I get boot me out of
the bar, which I'm fighting to

get out, I want to get my jacket.

It's hanging on my seat.

That's and why do you tell me that in
the first place, instead of saying,

I'm not leaving, I'm not leaving.

Then you get outside after a big fight.

They're not thinking, right.

So you say before you lay hands on
them, you say, is there anything

I can do or say to help me to gain
your cooperation in this matter?

I like to think there is.

And, um, they go, yeah,
give 'em in my jacket.

Well, duh.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's that's doable, right?

Or I'm gonna drink my last half of a beer.

You can do that.

Sure.

Whatever.

But a lot of guys slapped the beer
out of the guy's hand, the fights on

because, because they didn't listen.

Yeah.

He, yeah, he didn't listen.

He didn't go right now and having
half the beer is him saying basically

screw you, which you're allowed to do.

That's yeah, yeah.

Which it's a game.

Yeah.

So is it worth getting into a fight?

Cuz the guy wants to show his friends and
I'm drinking half my beer before I leave.

that's say what you want, but do, as
I say so bye-bye, you know, and then.

You're you're gone and you're
the hero and, uh, problem solve.

But, uh, but anyways, um, getting back
to the, the essence of, um, using force,

I mean, we've never been under more of a
microscope than now with, uh, black lives

matter and all these, uh, people wanting
to defund the police, looking for any,

any reason to, uh, smear the police and,
um, hitting people in essence looks bad.

There's a couple of things that police do
to avoid one, hitting people looks bad.

So we avoid, we avoid that.

We use joint locking techniques
and also holding people.

Is highly ineffectual, like holding,
grabbing them to typical by the collar.

I've got a collar.

That's the old, you know, police,
uh, old collar, the perp yeah, yeah.

Collar the perp.

That was, uh, you know, and some police
literally did that and there's no control.

So the difference between holding and
controlling is immense mm-hmm , it's like

the difference between sport techniques
and martial art and street techniques.

Mm-hmm is immense, the, the mentality,
the different, and, and one of them

being, um, police, all police shoot
also avoids going to the ground,

which you smart sister techniques.

Police like flocking to these, uh,
you know, Brazil jujitsu courses.

And, uh, it's flawed to
me in my mind, right?

From the very outset because you, the
ground is not the police officer's friend.

You don't wanna be there.

Well, now you might be taken to the
ground, but about, but you know, even

if you do you and police, should we do
a ground fighting, but we ground fight

with the ultimate purpose of getting up.

Right.

Not to submit when you not to be

on the ground and get

kicked in the head by all everything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Your head looks like a soccer ball, right.

Six inches off the ground.

So, so there's, um, a bunch of, uh,
things that we've, I improved in

control tactics through, um, through
police judo and this, this book here

that has just come out here, um, um,
Comprehensive joint locking techniques

for law enforcement, um, is just, uh,
one part of a book that I was writing.

I started about.

Oh, Uh, probably over 10 years
ago, the book would be this thick.

Well,

I saw in the book you're taught
you're referencing future books.

Yeah.

That you're gonna dedicate the next

10 years.

And I realize after 10 years,
you know, writing, I went,

this book would be too thick.

So I just took out what is most sale?

What's the, what's the most, uh, important
stuff that police need to do right now.

So, so I extracted this, the joint
locking aspects out of police judo,

and I say, okay, this is one book.

There'll be a book on ground fighting.

There'll be book on punching and kicking.

Sure.

Because there's there's times and places
where you have to do those things.

There'll be a book on
handcuffing and searching.

There'll be a book on, you
know, uh, various aspects of, of

police judo as it is, uh, now.

And, um, but this is the first,
the first of that series.

So I, I realize that in police
judo, um, it's all, it's about

controlling somebody and controlling.

by the difference between
controlling and holding is the

presence or absence of pain.

Mm.

So if it's, um, you know, um, um, pain
compliance technique, that's, that's,

that's, um, that's controlling somebody.

Okay.

So you, if you grab somebody by the
shoulder, by the caller, well, there's

no pain associated with that and the
person can fight back mm-hmm . Um, and

for the veers out there, if you have to
grab somebody say with one hand, there's

only one place to do that, to be able
to, even though it's holding, you can

still, uh, um, divert the force that, uh,
your opponent wants to use against you.

And that's just grab just a, uh, behind
the elbow, just above the elbow mm-hmm

, but, and standing in this blind spot, you
stand there or even grab both hands on.

If the person's really strong and
move, if he tries to move to turn

into it, you move, you stay in that
blind spot and you hold onto that arm.

And if he tries to punch you with
the other arm, you just thrust

the elbow out towards that.

Or if he tries to kick you,
you drive the elbow down.

Or if he tries to spin around
and back fist, you, you drive the

elbow, uh, towards the direction
of the incoming force and it

neutralizes the, uh, the force mm.

That other, that that's the
only hold I would recommend.

Right?

The rest of them, you gotta put
a little pain on it or be able to

put pain on it in a real Jiffy.

So you can get somebody into a
tech, uh, a joint locking technique

without applying the pain.

Right.

But you ready to go?

Right.

So if he starts resisting all of a.

Then you just, you amp it up.

So you're just outside, just at the
start of the person's range of motion.

Then you can crank it up till you
get to the, uh, you know, towards

the end of the range of motion.

That's where the pain, uh, begins.

Do you ever find any run into
people who are highly pain tolerant?

Whether just because drugs, crystal

meth, people are mentally ill, even, um,
um, goal oriented people, same people

that pepper spray doesn't work on.

Right?

Same validate.

You want to work on those three categories
of people, but it generally it's the one

that fails on pepper spray works on best
on silver police officers after it bounces

off the forehead and your partner gets it.

that's right.

He's in a world of pain, but other guy's
just blinking and thinking I've cooked

with shit harder than this mm-hmm.

But, uh, but, uh, yeah, so,
and, and, um, was talking about

use of force and handcuffing.

they still teach, uh, this, uh, pressure
point control tactics method of right.

Bending from the waist, put your arm
behind your back and all this stuff.

They teach that as, um,
a method of handcuffing.

Right.

And it's totally, um,

it's kind of the gospel
out there for some time.

Wasn't it?

Yeah.

Well still is.

And then, and then,
well, what about the guy?

That's got two fingers up and bleeding
from the forehead and no shirt on yeah.

Is on crystal meth and saying,
screw you, what about that?

How does that work?

It, doesn't not very well.

You need the, you need these
kind of techniques either.

You you're getting the person into a
joint lock, causing some pain, or if

there's no, if the lights are on and
no one's home, then, um, basically

you're using the arm as a tether, right?

To take him down into a, an inferior, uh,
position he's face down, uh, you know, uh,

uh, You don't want to give 'em a dirt nap
right away, but you're in a position to

do that if, if it's required and, um, and
that's, that's the, that's the way to go.

I mean, um, so yeah, so, so handcuffing
is, uh, Is a real, it's a perishable

skill and it's a real art form and there's
some very novel techniques in here.

I'm just about to enroll, um,
online course called HC cuff.

The hands saw on saw that control
saw using functional force.

And it's, it's brilliant
if I don't say so myself.

Yes.

Um, because it's very practical and
it's probably the, the most advancement

in handcuffing in the last 50 years.

Really.

Um, yeah.

You get talk, instructors are
talking about how you interlock

your fingers, the front or all.

just, just superficial crap.

Yeah.

Whereas, you know, it was, uh, whereas
we got, um, uh, technique called

the, um, chain link lock or cufflink
lock where you put the handcuff on

somebody and then you use the ch
prying down of the chain on, over yeah.

On.

So you're using the joint lock to, to
retain, uh, your control over somebody.

And you can still have one
hand for you to shake to hand.

Um, so things like that are,
that are really, really, um,

I've never been taught before.

Well, I haven't seen it.

No, I made it up.

I mean, I mean, there you go.

That's why I call it chink, you
know, sort of a joint locking chin.

Um, I call it chain chain.

Nah, and I realize that, you know,
I'm going, oh, you can get, you

can get a lot of purchase on that.

Yeah.

So, so, so the handcuffing, you,
even though it's, uh, a required

or, uh, necessary skill Hmm.

Police still don't practice
it or, and the techniques are

given are, are, um, useless.

Like if a person's bending over
their waist, turning your feet

out, bending forward, thumbs up.

If they're doing all that stuff,
just throw 'em the handcuffs.

Hey, you mind putting
these on behind your back?

yeah, sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What the guy, what the guy,
the crystal meth guy, what?

That doesn't get you any closer
to handcuffing him there.

And then police, when they see.

Um, it's going to be a
potentially violent situation.

Yeah.

They get, they're confused between like
the, the person might have a weapon.

You pull your gun out at the low
ready now you're head of the game.

Right.

Mm-hmm that makes sense.

So if he all sudden he reaches in
boom, you just up off the ground.

Yeah.

And, uh, you can, um, double tap the game.

People, uh, police think
that, oh, this is Harry.

So I'm gonna get my handcuffs out
in preparation, kind of like the

low ready, but it's not, you've
just handcuffed yourself because

you're a better martial artist or,
um, police technician than I am.

If you can have your handcuffs in one hand
and get that guy under control with your,

your free hand one free hand, then you're
better than I am because I need both

hands to manipulate the person, to get
him on the ground, get him into position

where he can't resist you any further.

Then I can put the handcuff on, but they,
so they're, they're almost in panic mode.

They go, oh my God, this is gonna,
I I'm ahead of the game here.

I got my handcuffs in my
hand and it, it does reverse.

And then of course, when they get 'em
under control, they're looking around for

their handcuffs, cuz they had to let go.

Of course, because they need both
hands to lay hands on somebody

who's being violent or so.

So whenever, um, and this, if, if you see,
um, you know, arrest gone badly, right.

The person ends up being shot.

Sure.

Right.

And then you go, oh, okay.

Then you, you play the
frame back a little bit.

Why did he shoot him?

Ah, The bad guy's got the Baton,
the officer's Baton is about to hit

him in the head and he shoots him.

Sure.

Fair.

That does, does he have a weapon
that could injure kill you?

Does he, you know, did you tell
him to drop the Baton is, you

know, did he fail to do that?

Yeah.

So, you know, it's, it's green light,
you know, check, check, check, boom.

And, but then that's the final
frame analysis, but he hold on,

he's got the officers at Baton.

How did that happen?

Right.

So you rail, you roll that, uh, the,
the, the tape back a little further.

Oh.

And the officers, you know,
hitting him in effectually.

Mm.

And the guy just being, what is this?

The guy's being ferous at the best.

And he just strips the Baton.

Because the officer
doesn't know how to use it.

Doesn't know how to retain
it and then, but, okay.

But why is he hitting him?

Why did the Baton come out?

So you roll the tape back and there's
the officer trying to, he's holding onto

the guy rather than controlling him using
some pain and doing it rather in effect.

So he's losing the guy, just busts out,
cuz the guy's not under, under control.

He's just being held in effectually.

Right.

And then the officer starts to panic and
he pulls out his Baton and then you roll

that back and maybe you get into TCOM
maybe you think, oh, the guy's being, he's

getting into a fight with him because he's
being, um, Maybe he is coming in too hard.

He didn't use his T com.

He didn't try and, you
know, go from the bottom up.

And, um, and he in senses the guy into, to
the point where he begging, he begged the

guy ends up begging for, to be arrested
because of what the officer has said.

Maybe could talked, talk them down a
little bit or got 'em to cooperate or

whatever like that, but doesn't happen.

You see?

So there's a series of failures and
guaranteed every, every one of these uses

of force where the perpetrators gets shot.

If you rule that, take back, you'll
see a whole series of mistakes

done, uh, tactically by the officer.

And

it's always easy to look after the
fact and say, oh, should have done,

should have done, should have done.

And I guess a goal here, particularly
with the publications that

you're putting out is to ingrain.

The scenarios and those skills.

So a person can more readily come
to that in the heat of the moment.

Right.

And the officers really can't be blamed
and they're, you're gonna see more

officers suing, uh, counter suing when
they get done for assault saying if,

uh, I I'm counter suing my department
for failure to train mm-hmm because

you, they get 60 to 70 hours in, in
BC, 60 to 70 hours of, uh, tactical

training in the police academy.

That's nice.

And, uh, hairdressers get like 300, right.

Uh, foot CFL football players.

I'm sure they get more than, uh,
a couple hundred before they go

into the, the big game there.

And it's 60 hours.

Yeah, that guy with a
bleeding from the forehead.

No shirt on, on crystal meth.

There you go.

There's 60 hours of training.

Go and deal with that

guy.

Well, then there's a fear
factor cuz the officers go in,

they may not have been into a

physical altercation.

Right?

Everybody, everything looks like a nail.

When you, when you got no skills and
they only, they give you a hammer or a

couple of hammers on your, on your belt,
that's all you're bringing to fight.

There's nail is, is a nail.

Yeah.

You're only tool only fight you're
bringing to it is the tools on your

belt and you get that's where you get
this what's called gadget reliance.

If people, you know, rely on the
taser and OC and those things fail,

I mean the battery's not charged or
the, the taser barbs, uh, don't make

proper contact or the pepper spray
is you got the kind of person that,

uh, just can blink through that.

Right.

And uh, so those things fail, but
I find that your hands on skills,

if, if they're you're print trained
properly, um, are, are solid state.

They generally don't fail.

They may not work on everybody sometimes.

Yeah.

You'll have to break away and,
and uh, punch, kick, shoot.

You know, uh, you know, there's no
perfect, um, you know, set of tools that

you can give somebody and it's guaranteed
to work on everybody, but police judo

will work on the vast majority of people.

I, I

remember years ago, this one guy,
he had a, um, got into a, a fight

and he was in martial arts and he
thought, okay, here's my chance.

I'm gonna practice some
of the stuff I know.

Right.

And he was using judo chops.

So judo, chop, judo, chop to the neck.

And he's like, I he's like, it
surprised me how ineffective those

were in the scheme of things.

And I just started resorting
to haymaker essentially.

And.

I'm wondering if in your progress as
you're going through things, were there

things that were commonly taught that
you later looked at and said, man,

those don't work at all.

Oh gosh.

and I look back to some of
the older training manuals.

I, how did they survive that did, did
the, uh, the level of, uh, techniques

are kind of techniques they're
teaching are horrible, even in, even

in the army, just, just horrible.

They're they're difficult,
they're ineffective.

And they haven't, they haven't,
uh, sort of, uh, gotten

around to figuring that out.

But, um, yeah, there's even to this day,
they're, they're, they're teaching things

that are actually 30, 40 years old that
are, they're not that, not that practical.

So this is a police.

Judo is a bit of, um, a breath of, uh,
fresh air in terms of, uh, techniques.

I, if the, to be in listed in
our, a list of techniques, You

gotta have a couple of factors.

One is, uh, you know, it's gotta
be effective and practical.

It's gotta be ethical.

It's gotta be, um, the, the
person has to have a, an, uh,

inability to, to attack you.

Mm.

So, or be attacked by other people.

Like, so that's why going to the
ground is we do do some of that

and you can go to the ground if you
have your I've done it a few times.

Sure.

My partner watching me just get bored.

I guess I take somebody
down, try something new.

Yeah.

Try something new.

Just go to the ground
with 'em just for fun.

Um, but, uh, invariably the ground
like is, like I say, it's not,

there's not the officer's friend.

Oh.

And so you wanna try and avoid that
and, uh, like, like a ground fight,

uh, uh, to get up as soon as possible
and possibly to disengage or reengage

them in a more positive, uh, way.

So, so there's, there's been a number
of, uh, techniques being taught over

the years by different police academies.

And that still go on to, I just
met an RCMP officer in Berny.

Um, he's close to retirement.

He said he just did a two
years stint at depo and.

Got out.

And I said, why?

Because I was teaching them things
that I know, uh, wouldn't work.

Right.

So bending from the waist and all
that stuff, mm-hmm , you know,

I was, I was, I was, uh, uh,
trained as an instructor in that.

And, uh, I, I never used it because
doesn't work well, it works on totally

compliant people, but that's, that's not
what this handcuffed skills should apply

to people that don't wanna get arrested.

Those that's, that's the, that's
their, that's the necessity of, of,

uh, of control in getting the cuffs
on difficult people, not the people

that are put 'em on themselves.

Mm-hmm , that's, it's nothing.

So anyways, he was disillusioned
by what he was, uh, told to teach.

And, um, so he left mm-hmm and
I said, well, good for you.

But you know, that that's that's today.

That's going on.

Right.

You know?

And, uh, so it's not, uh, you know,
40 years ago, but it's 40 years ago.

Um, Know tactics and, and you can't
blame the officers because if they

haven't been, they, they have no, they
don't know anything about police judo.

How are they gonna pull that?

You pull that outta their ass, you know,
they, so it's just like, um, a police

police were shooting mental people.

Mm.

A couple decades ago.

Right.

So, um, I was actually looking, I was
a non firearm weapons, uh, expert for

18 years and act, I was actually close
to bringing in the taser into Canada

and Darren Lauer actually did it.

very, but, but because of BPD at
the time, weren't interested in

it, even though I demonstrated Brad
and I faucet and I demonstrated

at the, uh, for the ERT members.

Yeah.

Uh, just extra training, another
tool we're not interested.

So Darren Lauer picked
it up, brought it in.

Yeah.

And for dealing with mental
people, it helps MHA.

And so.

so the first inquiry that comes up
after you shoot a mental person,

the question will be, could
you have done something else?

And then the, the lawyer will say,
well, didn't, isn't there a thing called

the taser that, uh, Victoria is using.

right.

So then you're liable.

So every once one, um, police department,
uh, adopts it, say in Canada, everyone

else has to follow suit a default, and we
could have been that leader, but anyways,

Victoria end up stealing good for them.

But, um, but having said that you
can't, you know, uh, they're gonna have,

there's gonna be some problems when,
when ju police ju becomes more recognized

the same, question's gonna pop up.

Well that, why did you
punch 'em kick them?

Yeah.

Him and all stuff.

Could you have done something else?

No.

Well, isn't.

Police judo, you know,
it's gonna be like that.

And it's like, aren't
there better techniques.

Aren't there more, you know,
advanced or more modern techniques

available that you could have done.

And that's the kind of questions that
are gonna be asked in the future.

And, uh, so you know, a
police department should.

Pick this, this kind of training up
because it's very practical, effective,

and, uh, effective and tactical and
ethical and all that other stuff.

Mm-hmm but they should also just pick it
up because it's the right thing to do.

And, and the tools are
stronger, like right than.

Then, you know, trying to, you know, knee
striking somebody in the thigh when they

re offer resistance, striking looks bad.

Yeah.

It's optically poor and
breaking the machine is a poor

way of generating compliance.

Right?

Because now, you know, we
get into a fight like that.

It's it's who, who can destroy who first?

Well, you

can also turn on the
whole survival instinct.

They're like, holy
Crow, this really hurts.

I'm in a hell of a lot of pain.

You've gone too far.

If you're not enough problem too far.

And now you're in the
fight that you didn't.

I mean, joint locking can cause
pain too, but it's something

you can dial up or dial down.

Whereas once the strike is out,
it's, whatever it is, what it is.

So you can't, you know, saying, oops,
I hate you too hard there story.

Let me take 50% of that pain back or here
I'll fix your rib for you or something.

But, uh, yeah, so there's, there's
um, some, um, Changes that have to

be made in policing in terms of use
of force and police judo is, or is,

is we're on the cusp of creating this
new, um, um, method of dealing people.

Now it draws from a, a number of
martial arts that draws from our,

a number of, uh, police control.

Uh, I used to say arresting
control tactics, right?

I flipped it around
purposefully in my book.

It's controlling arrest tactics.

Mm.

You gotta control you first.

Then the handcuffs control that's right.

So not arrest you're under arrest
and then try and control you.

No, like you're under arrest
and they go, no, I'm not.

And he runs away.

so you better grab him.

You better control him first and
saying you're under arrest mm-hmm

and I don't have to chase you.

well, I, I like how the, uh, the book,
uh, is conscious of Hicks law, of course,

where number of options you have, your
reaction time will decrease cuz your

mind's going for all, all the different
scenarios of what I could pull from me.

And it'll concentrate on some,
some basics and variations on those

basics and other variations, right?

So there's some, some, uh,
techniques and concepts in here.

I like teaching by concept rather than,
you know, uh, I was in, uh, in 1986,

I went to, I think it was a Sydney
police department and there's a fifth

degree black belt in he keto there.

Okay.

And he was the instructor.

He was a civilian.

Sure.

Which is by my estimation is wrong.

He should not be teaching a
civilian should not be teaching,

uh, control and arrest tactics.

Anyways.

So I, I was just goofing around.

We was, was talking about
techniques in general.

I did this thing where you interlock
your hands behind your head.

It's, it's not a, a
technique you do anymore.

And you squeeze the fingers together.

And then the, the guy's
hands are locked in there.

Hmm.

And I, and he says, he
gets one of his students.

I says, do it to him.

So I did it and the guy couldn't get away.

And he goes, and he was telling
me just before that, he says,

there's a thing in ha keto.

There's 10,000 techniques in ha keto.

And I, the time I was thinking,
that's a dumb way to look at it.

Mm.

Uh, 10,000 technique.

So anyway, he does a thing and he did,
he said he didn't sing that before.

And I said, there's a thing in ha keto,
there's 10,001 techniques in ATO , but

that's a technique driven thing.

And, and the students are confused, um,
uh, by the sheer number of variations.

But, but if you look at.

Uh, joint locking.

There's only like four things you can do.

You got four fingers, all four things
you can do, uh, uh, uh, you can hyper,

uh, extend it, hyper contract it.

You can twist it mm.

Or do a combination of those things.

Right.

That's it.

So it doesn't matter if you're
doing a finger bar, an arm bar, a

leg bar, a back bend or whatever.

That's the same principles.

You know, you got your fingers, three
segmented, your arms, three segmented.

Your, your legs are three
segmented your even your body.

If you can, uh, call your legs one
segment your torso one and your neck.

Sure.

It's all three segments.

You can, hyperextended it hyper
contract, it twisted, or a

combination of those things.

So simple.

So, so now you say, okay, this finger
bar is a variation of the arm bar.

Oh, I get it.

So now this is number, this
technique number, you know, 108.

This is technique 109 for
that thing is technique one.

Yeah, no, it's just all of
that one principle, so, right.

It's easier to remember.

And then you, um, you can in
sort of invent things as you go,

because you're just looking for
the, the essential principle behind

the kind of control you want to.

Generate.

Now, if you've walked through these,
these technique is helpful, but at

least you don't have to RO memorize
each one as if they're separate

mm-hmm , you're missing the point.

You the, uh, and it's the
commonality I've been studying

martial arts for over 50 years.

Yeah.

And I used to say, uh, oh, like
different styles of cut out there.

There's scores of them,
but they're all the same.

Mm.

At the beginning to a beginner and say,
oh no, we are do our block this way.

And we do the open hand.

And, but it's all the
same, all the same stuff.

The, the principle, the techniques,
they're just dressed up a little

different, you know, sugar plum Fu
punches with one knuckle this way.

And yeah, somebody else punches this
way and a vertical fist or whatever, but

it's just, it's all a punch mm-hmm it's.

So it doesn't need, uh,
designation as a new.

Style of martial art.

It's really, I mean, it's just all the
same, whereas judo, it's just judo.

Right?

You see there.

So there's somebody could do there.

There are many different ways of
doing, say an outer reap, take

the back leg and falling down.

There's many ways of doing that, but
rather than saying, oh, on our style

of judo, we do the auto reap this way.

No, they, they, they say bullshit.

At least the judo guys got it, right?

They say, no, it's all the same.

But, uh, police judo is a new
martial art because the, the

philosophy is, is totally different.

And judo better not be
using this on the street.

And police judo is saying you
better, you better be this

on the street, uh, correctly.

Yes.

In the course of your duties.

Yeah.

And, uh, judo is the, you pin the
guy, you get him on the ground.

Mm.

Which you don't want to be.

And his back's on the ground in policing.

You want, no, you want him face
down and you want to be standing

above him or kneeling on him.

Right.

You know, so everything, uh, everything's
different about police judo and the end

end game is to put handcuffs on somebody.

It's probably the only
martial art like that.

Mm.

To actually the end game is not the
double tap on the shoulder, whatever

it's to get him under control and
on the ground and in handcuffs.

So anyways, the, um, getting back to this,
um, a keto, uh, so he's, he's teaching

in the police academy has no never been
in probably in a real fight in his life.

And yet he's teaching this
theoretical stuff and he's teaching

it from look how much I know.

Ah, and then they somehow.

You know that stuff, the, the officer
has to distill well, yeah, he taught

us that, but it's not very practical.

Does he know that?

Mm-hmm, probably not mm-hmm but
it's still it's part of the

curriculum cuz he's teaching it.

So he, he get into, into,
um, into problems like that.

Being the training is instructor
centric rather than, um, being

situationally centric, like
what is needed on the street.

Mm-hmm not what the instructor knows,
but what is actually needed and that's,

and, and we've done some work, uh, with,
uh, again, Sergeant Toby Henton, he

went, uh, uh, into, uh, force options
training before he retired and he was

doing the data mining and saying, well,
okay, what, what's going on the street?

How are officers being injured?

How are, uh, what kind
of techniques are being.

Thrown at the officers.

And, uh, you know, and if
something's not working like neck

restraint, why isn't it working?

So these kinds of, uh, things, and
so the techniques, um, uh, being.

Um, used on the street, uh, by
the offenders, for example, can

help drive the, the training in.

So if there's a lot of officer being
taken down by the, you know, the,

the popular area of MMA and everybody
thinks they're a big MMA star, right?

The, the, the downtown east side or
whatever, the gas, town's a big octagon.

Yeah.

And, and they just want
to go out and do that.

So maybe that's something you should
train, uh, train for how to, how to,

uh, avoid being scooped, um, by the
legs or, uh, tackled or something.

So, um, but that's in, that's here.

And some other part of the country
it'd be something different.

The states had more likely, geez
guys reaching into his jacket.

Right.

You'd be a bit, little bit worried that
there's not a gun on the end of that hand.

So we're in Canada.

We don't have to worry about that
much more knives and things like that.

But, um, so your training have
to reflect the problems that the

officers encounter on the street.

and, um, and handcuffing is an
essential skill and it's, it's covered

in my view, just, um, peripherally,
almost like just incidentally.

So, you know, you, you, you should
be handcuffing everybody all the

time in training, so you have,
uh, some proficiency and they

just decide, well, they get to the
point where they're handcuffing and

they've skipped that to save time.

Mm.

And, um, and yet, You know, they'll
teach, I don't know, like knife defense,

just to tick that box saying yeah, 18
years ago we taught him knife defense.

Yeah.

It was four hours of knife
defense and they tick that box.

What about handcuffing somebody?

Why is this do the final frame analysis?

He didn't, uh, wasn't able to
handcuff that person properly

and the other person's dead as a
result of that, uh, ineptitude.

So shouldn't, shouldn't the most
common, the most likely thing, uh, be

trained the most and the least likely,
uh, thing, uh, be trained the least,

you know, but, uh, you know, it's just
like, it's least like less, less, less

likely in Canada that we shoot somebody.

However, the, um, the, the, the
repercussions of a bad shoot is different

from a bad wrist lock mm-hmm , you
know, so, so there's a lot of, um,

training associated with, um, firearms
training, for example, um, then

are say handcuffing and, and sure.

You know, the chance of somebody
being injured in the process of

handcuffing isn't negligible.

But if you go, if you let that thing,
slide to the where the gun comes out,

the final frame analysis, the officer
might be justified, but have they been

able to cut that, uh, violence encounter
off by initial control, getting,

gaining control and maintaining control
throughout the whole thing, right?

People will get control.

And as soon as they reach for
their handcuffs, the guy bust

loose because the technique is a
two handed technique of control.

And then when they
reach now, they've lost.

Um, and, and incidentally, every, every
joint locking technique, you have to

have pressure and counter pressure.

Mm-hmm you gotta have both mm-hmm.

In, in, in, in with the twist lock,
which is one of the techniques in the

book you're pointing the elbow up.

Mm-hmm the, the, the
counter pressure is gravity.

Otherwise you, you have one hand here, one
hand here and you're doing a joint lock.

You need, if you just go like this
things gonna move mm-hmm you have to

have pressure and counter pressure.

Mm-hmm . And so.

so the guy's got him in this joint
lock, a rear bent wrist lock, and

then they go to reach for handcuff
now, oh, there's no control.

And the guy just spins out of it.

So he had good control, but he
lost it because the technique

that he's using is not effective.

Mm-hmm is not effective for
doing one hand control wheres.

Uh, if you use a, um, a double twist
lock, which is highly featured in

this book, mm-hmm with one hand, I
can, I can take you to the ground.

I can stand you up.

I can sit you down.

Uh, I, I could, you could take duct
tape our hands together, and I can

have you flip flopping all over the
place mm-hmm without ever, um, um,

releasing the grip mm-hmm and it's
the only technique that's like that.

And I picked that up from actually from,
um, the Royal Hong Kong police academy.

And when I was on that, uh, when I was
in Hong Kong and they did it in a very.

Um, the guy was in, I George button
he's dead now, but he was a, he was

a civilian and, uh, again, and, uh,
he was teaching that and it was, um,

very sort of, uh, one dimensional
technique and I took it and I've gone.

I went down, I vented a whole
bunch of, uh, twist lock techniques

that Ito's never seen before.

They wouldn't have to, because they
would, they don't go down that road.

Mm wait.

They do a double tap.

That's the end.

That's the end of the session.

Mm-hmm where they take the person down.

They, they don't have to
get 'em into handcuffs.

Mm-hmm . And so the, um, the,
the end RN game is in policing

is to get 'em into handcuffs.

Right.

And, and, and without
control without, yeah.

Breaking them if hurting
them, if possible.

So, yeah, but, uh, so anyways, that's
the essence of, of holding versus

controlling, controlling versus
hitting, you know, in the optics

of, uh, today's climate out there.

I police do you have a bit of a go-to
so if you're going to go you're in

a situation T comes, start to fail.

You're gonna have to go hands

on.

Oh, absolutely.

I know where I'm going.

A

go-to if you're dealing with
somebody who you say, okay, this

one might be a little bit of work.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

I just gotta, you know, you
assess the person, the person's

got long hair and he's yelling.

I'm not gonna be, you're
not gonna arrest me.

I'm just looking.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'll take him down over there.

Mm-hmm grab him by the hair on
the opposite side of the head.

Spin 'em around.

Yeah.

Whatever.

But my go-to, uh, position.

Has always been to grab the elbow
and get into the blind spot.

So if you're there, it's like on
my back and I can't get you cuz

you're, you're holding onto me.

Right.

You're back there.

Right.

It's like, it's the same thing.

As you're coming up to a driver
asking for his driver's license and

registration, you don't stand directly
in front of the, the open window.

Right?

Do you?

Right?

Because I, the guy going, no, I don't
have my license, but get shot in the face.

Right.

So you pee around the corner and Ooh,
in a minute criminal, like where you

look, I don't know you so and so now
to shoot you, he has to take his right

hand, get out the window and you're along
the side, like that's a hard shot to

make mm-hmm . So that's the blind spot.

When you're asking for
the driver's license and

registration, it's a safe place.

Mm-hmm so this is the same
thing where you grab him by the

elbow and you stay in that spot.

So if he moves you move, if you, if, if
you, if he stays stationary, you grab

him here and he turns into, and you
don't move well, he is gonna crack you.

Right.

But if you stay there, it's
just like, if he's stronger than

you, it, it is very annoying.

and, and you could punch him and,
and kick him at will if me be.

But sure.

So, um, being in that blind spot and
grabbing him there, and quite often,

when, uh, would, when people go a little
bit, ape shit on me, I'd grab him by the

elbow and I'd put 'em up against the wall.

I'd stand in the blind spot.

In my free hand, I'd
grab him by the throat.

Mm-hmm and I'd push him into the wall.

Right.

So he can't, he can't Dodge.

He can't move.

Yeah.

He, he can't even drop down.

He couldn't even drop down to the
ground if that's his strategy.

Mm-hmm and.

and, uh, so, so like a cross grab
in essence mm-hmm and then you

can squeeze as much as you want.

It could probably not recommended
these days, but I'm just talking

about in the early days, early days.

Yes.

When I was discovering yes, the,
uh, um, the safety, um, benefits

of being in that blind spot.

That's my, that was my go-to position.

I have them.

And then we'd have a talk mm-hmm

and a very receptive audience.

Right.

A very receptive audience.

So what do you think it's gonna
take, VPDs already incorporating

some of this into their training.

Uh, what do you think it's gonna take
for other agencies to incorporate?

Well, it's a good question, because
like I say, um, police agencies

are very parochial, even Delta
has their own pension for sure.

Doing things like they love the P P C T
stuff and, and, uh, uh, Brazilian ground

fighting, I think, and things like that.

And, uh, every agency says, well,
my instructors, they, they know

what's best for us and fair enough.

Sure.

But I think that, um, uh, the VPD
has, uh, through Adam Palmer, the

chief fair, he loves, uh, both
police ju and, uh, odd squad.

Um, and, uh, he's mandated that all
the police recruits have to do 40

hours of police, judo training before
they go to the academy, get their 60.

Wow.

And we've had, um, anecdotal
feedback saying they learned actually

quite a bit in that 40 hours and
they really loved that training.

And, uh, so we're hoping that
there's gonna be some rub

off at the academy level.

Uh, I think my book's floating around
there now, so maybe good, good.

I slow , we'll pick up on some of the
stuff, but it it's just a matter of, um,

you know, it's, it's promoting things like
my book and this, this Huff, this online,

uh, training that's coming out this fall.

Um, and, and then police agencies have to
be aware that there's some alternatives

before they will actually move towards it.

But, um, chief Palmers stance
on police judo is backing.

Um, our training is, is a good example.

Um, But, um, like say it just takes a
trainer in there that doesn't like the

concept or he's doing his own martial art,
and doesn't realize that he's handicapping

other officers by teaching what he
knows instead of what they need to know.

So, um,

yeah.

And I guess with the, any more high
profile cases coming up, the more, uh,

attention that this will get, we'll
just be raising in people's minds.

Like isn't there another way isn't
there were there other options

and why didn't you look at them?

Why'd you discount them
if you did look at them,

right?

Yeah.

I mean, and even.

Doing things like simply handcuffing
there's that native, um, elder

and his granddaughter at the
bank, you know, you remember that?

Oh, right.

Yeah.

So, you know, but be because the
officers are, oh, well we handcuff

everybody, you know, that's uh,
which is not the right answer.

You're still using force.

So you have to count for
why you're handcuffing them.

And they got it in their mind that
just supposed to handcuff everybody.

And, uh, you know, it's, it just
went sideways and looks bad.

Uh, yes.

You know, it's, uh, looks bad.

A number of levels.

Yeah.

So, but, and, and you'll see, uh,
um, there's things being taught.

There's a thing called the spear
where you, you do a surprise

reaction, the baseball bat breaks
and the guys, the crowd, and then

you turn that ne this response,
uh, reaction into a positive thing.

And then you push back on
the, on the person to sure.

Try and keep him off of you.

Um, the last time I was, uh, surprised
like that was, uh, never so again, it's a

civilian teaching it, um, two police, the
police, you know, they, uh, gobble it up.

It's they get another, they got
a certificate on their wall, the

trainers call it certification or, uh,
intimidation through certification.

Right.

And that the one week spear course up
the thing, but no one's ever done it.

Mm-hmm no one mm-hmm and
yet we teach the twist lock.

Yeah.

And all the recruits they're doing,
they're doing it in the jail all the time.

Mm-hmm um, I got one recruit.

He said he did it, uh, 80 times
in the last five months, you

know, you know, in the skids.

Cause it works, but, but it works.

Yeah.

So I, I, I can, I can show you video.

I can show you still pictures.

My there's a bunch of them in my, yeah.

In my book here.

It's not, it's not some show me,
somebody show me a picture, a video of

somebody doing the spear doesn't exist.

So, but it's a nice tight little package.

And like I say, the instructor
gets his, give the certification.

Yeah.

So the instructor looks like he's got,
um, you know, wide depth of a wide, uh,

broad range of experience, but the puddles
only like an inch deep, uh, you know, uh,

so, and they don't know, they seriously,
they don't know the value or the, uh, uh,

the impracticality of such techniques.

They just learn.

what somebody's been is teaching.

They like it, they get their certificate
and, um, and, and, and it's simple enough

and they can run with it and teach it.

Mm-hmm please.

Judo.

Not so much.

Mm-hmm yeah, there's a lot to
it, but there's parts of it.

Yeah.

Pull out techniques and stuff
like that, but you're not getting

police judo, uh, you know, um,
certification, um, in a weekend.

Um, no, so, but, um,

I, I think in like the litigious
society that we live in, people just

love and glom onto certificates.

Oh, you're certified in PP, C T you're
certified in OOC, whatever it might be.

Right.

You're covered.

Okay.

Department departments on it's side,
and we wanna hire more people that

have all of these certifications.

And, um, I'm, I'm wondering if that's
ever gonna reach a tipping point

of the, well, I, like I say, I've
mentioned before that there's police

officers starting to think about, um, You
know, counter suing the department for

failure to train mm-hmm and part of that
failure to train could be, well you're

training me, but it's, uh, more useless.

Yeah.

Right.

You're training me.

And, uh, the techniques don't work.

Mm-hmm and you're sending me out there.

It's like that RCMP guy, he quit
depo because he's being told to teach

things that he knows doesn't work.

Mm.

In, in reality, it looks good on paper
and it's a nice slick little program,

but he, he realizes that, uh, no, I'm
not, I'm not, uh, serving my brother,

officer or sister officer very well by
sending him out and having them to try

and use that technique on the street.

In reality, I

just gotta wonder about the world
of litigation that opens up too.

When a somebody leaves based on their,
uh, assertion that what's being taught,

isn't gonna be something that's effective,
uh, provided that's communicated to

the department, to the detachment.

They've now got a responsibility
to turn around and say,

okay, we've looked into it.

We discount your, your thoughts because
a, B and C cuz if they don't, somebody

else will get themselves hurt and they've
got this precedent of somebody leaving.

I, I mean that the optics
of that are terrible.

I, I gotta wonder.

Yeah.

And, and of course we're talking
about the RCMP and, you know,

municipal police and the, um, federal
police, there are gonna be two

completely different beasts as well.

Mm.

And I think the municipal police are able
to perhaps respond to issues more quicker,

faster.

It's like the RCMP is like trying to
turn around a, you know, ocean liner.

They very, um, bureaucratic, uh,
organization and, um, and, um, police in

general, they're very traditional, um,
kind of, um, Agencies, you know, they're

not really ones to think outside the
box really, really quickly really well.

They, they want sort of the status
quo and, and they're really bit

reluctant about trying something new.

Like for like, for example, when we
started odd squad in 97, I was gonna

ask, we were borderline in inherit.

Right?

Wow.

Seven police officers.

They wanna educate, uh, youth in
particular about drugs and gangs

and, and we're picking up cameras
and there's a thin blue line, right?

Oh God.

Yeah.

They're going, whoa.

Like, no, I mean, odd squad
is about proactive policing.

It's about, um, you
know, community policing.

It's about, uh, uh, doing something.

thinking outside the box to try
and solve a problem that you can't

arrest your way out of mm-hmm you
can't arrest your way out of that.

So, you know, the, uh, the best
way is to try and prevent the bomb

from blowing up in the first place,
rather than just mopping up the,

the blood and the guts afterwards.

You know, I remember

when that started and I remember
hearing the, um, uh, the different

sides and different opinions.

And everyone's like, well, you know,
good for them, but there's always

that reluctance and hesitation and
maybe fear of, uh, this being exposed

and what there's light shine on it.

Yeah.

And,

and, um, the, we, we broke a lot of
ice there for police carrying cameras

and, and, and even for these reality
shows to, to come out, um, subsequent

to that, mm-hmm , um, you know, we
were always the one police used to

be always the ones holding the door
open for the filmmaker and they

went, wait a minute, we can do this.

so we'll make our own videos.

And, uh, and it was, um, Uh, LoRa can
file generally respected what we doing

when they understood what we're doing.

Mm-hmm and then there's a few, uh, people
in the police department, their nose were

a joint or, uh, they weren't part of it,
uh, you know, credo that, and they're

jealous and, and you think the higher up
that, uh, people go the, the more refined

they are as a person and not necessarily.

So the Peter principal, right.

Just, you know, proves that.

So, and we've had, uh, we had,
we had a former mayor wanted

Toby and I fired really?

We spent three.

Yeah.

They, they put three lawyers on
it, then like $120,000 to see

if odd squad could have a voice
independent of the police department.

And answer was, uh, yes, we can.

and, um, and, but, you know, so.

But when you're at the spear tip of the
spear, you gotta expect some resistance.

You're doing things, right.

You're changing things.

You're out of this conservative group
and you're gonna get some resistance.

They're gonna be people that once they
see how the, the tip cuts, they're going,

that's cutting in the right direction.

I like that.

But you get some other, uh,
uh, police, uh, mucky, mucks.

Say no, I don't, this it's just,
they see it as more paperwork or

it's, or there's a bit of a risk
involved or something in there.

They, they don't wanna,
they don't want to do that.

Right.

So, well, you've always, so you
and you were right there, ground

level odd squad when that started

up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh it's like, it was, um, I'm
sort of the creative seed behind

both odd squad and police judo.

Toby's the worker be he takes stuff
and runs with it, you know, but,

um, initially on, uh, good for him.

Good for, to, yeah.

Yeah.

On odds in odd squad.

Uh, we were both at it for really hard.

We were going, uh, 90 miles an hour.

We were working seven days a week.

And, you know, just thinking nothing
about grabbing a camera and going out to

Surry on our day off at two o'clock in
the morning to, you know, uh, videotape,

uh, an attic who just come down after
the three day crystal meth run type thing

and, uh, you know, stuff like that is.

Uh, you know, it's, uh, just a
tremendous amount of work, but

it it's paid off in the long run.

We've beg board and stolen,
whatever we can to keep ourselves

going, we don't get any federal
money or, uh, provincial money.

We just do fundraisers.

And again, they drop more than a
million dollars a day in the skids.

And if we we'd have 1% of
that, it would be rolling in do

well.

You've got a whole team
now don't on odd squad.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

We've, we've lost.

Uh, we, we started off with originally
with seven guys and then very

early on, uh, we picked up Chris,
uh, Graham, uh, doing the hockey.

He had a hockey program
running parallel to ours.

Uh, it was educating hockey, um,
players junior a about, um, the perils

of drug abuse and things like that.

And, and Brian shipper was, um,
sort of quiet behind the scenes guy.

Just always, uh, uh, helping us out.

Mm.

And then couple of the odds squad
guys dropped out very quickly.

And then we've picked up a few
other people with Doug Spencer

doing the gang, uh, uh, stuff.

He's amazing.

He's he just guy does
so many presentations.

And, um, we picked up a younger
people like Constable Brendan Frick.

He was a police judo.

I know he's a police judo black belt, and
he does a tremendous amount with odd squad

and just a wonderful young Constable.

So we have a new generation of,
uh, people, uh, coming up into odd

squad cuz you know, Toby and I are
getting a little along in the tooth.

I'm I'm gonna be 70, uh, in February.

Toby's 10 years behind me.

We have March nine camp.

He's a little bit behind, uh, Toby.

And so,

uh, so what's, what's the driving force
between creating all of these new sort

of, uh, programs, these ideologies,
these, uh, the directions, the odd

squad was kind of revolutionary,
particularly around pure event.

I don't know of other
places that were doing it.

It's, what's unique in the world.

There you go.

Uh, this, uh, the police
judo is something that I

haven't seen again, unique in the world.

Right.

I mean, it's just, I, I think if, uh,
you could have had the same group of

people, like, uh, Toby and Brian and
mark and myself and, and, um, whomever.

On the, on the police judo side of
things, we could have been, you know,

working left Testco Saskatchewan and
oh, we made another arrest again.

That's two for the year.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no.

So there's no necessity there and there's
no invention, but since we are armpit in

deep in human misery and, uh, the drug
and the stuff that we saw down there

and are resting so many people in the,
the human behavior at its worst, it's

just, um, it's just, it was just, um,
if anybody had, should have PTSD, it

should be like Toby and I and mark, and
who spent a lot of time in the skid,

but, uh, the, um, the end, the end game
there, or end result of all that is let.

Try and be creative and think outside
the box and see if there's another way

of tackling this, because the way it's
being done is not really effective

or it's, mm-hmm, not practical.

And so, you know, you got the, the
skid road there and one side of the

fence, we got, uh, trying to keep other
people from becoming drug addicted

and, and humanizing the addicts.

You know, they, you know, they just
didn't choose to be a drug addict really.

And, um, and then the other side of the
fence is like the people, the police

that deal with them wanna keep, uh, them
safe by giving them superior tactics.

Mm-hmm we also want these superior taxes
going to keep the, uh, drug addicts safe.

They say, they're not getting their arms
broken, their jaw, jaw broken and stuff

like that because they're whacked out.

Yeah.

And, um, so you know, you
basically, you want to have your.

These people treated like
it was a family member.

It happened to me once I had a,
someone in my family that was suicidal

and drinking and, and on drugs.

And I sent the SMP over and
I'm going, oh God, I hope it's.

I hope it's somebody that's well
grounded and have good technique

versus somebody that, oh my God,
this guy wants to beat this up.

And then he's gonna get his arm broken
mm-hmm and I sent, you know, or worse.

So, um, so, you know, it's, it's
kind of, uh, it's kind of like that.

So we've out of the, that, that miserable
neighborhood is full of, uh, dysfunction.

There's some good people
down there as well.

Sure.

My uncle Frank lived down there for his
whole adult life and he was a, he was

an alcoholic and never got into trouble,
but there he died a few years ago.

Buts he, um, there's, there's good
people down there, but there's

a lot of people there, there.

Quite frankly, dysfunctional.

And they, they go there because the
rent's cheap, they can lose themselves.

They, the government's
gonna look after them.

Mm-hmm and, um, and they
fit in because no one cares.

If you got a mental illness or, or
criminal or whatever, they just don't

give a shit mm-hmm . And, um, and as much
as they like to call it a neighborhood.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, yeah.

That same neighborhood, um, that
put my, I end up staking myself out

in, in, in my last year, on the job
to get robbed down there because

there's, uh, civilian brought in.

Um, footage shot from, uh, a top
of a building of these two older

people getting robbed, right.

Violently robbed.

Right.

And, and he showed us this
and I said, this isn't right.

So Toby and I hatched a
plan called old timer.

And I stick myself out in the lane weight.

To be robbed.

Mm.

I actually wore a helmet because I
thought I was gonna get boot fucked

mm-hmm and we had a camera in there.

It was controlled.

My hand was in a bandage.

I can control the, uh, the, uh, hidden
microphone and control the video camera.

And we film them from across the, uh,
the laneway to, uh, was in the, the

two worst neighborhood, uh, laneway in
the skids and, uh, two nights in a row.

And we nailed two robbery crews.

Yeah.

And I had a flash roll of some money
and I bought some crack and showed

them the money, you know, and right.

Oh man, you shouldn't show that your money
around here, you know, you know, the guy

was guy, the guy was he like sausage?

Yeah, yeah.

Guy wasn't being friendly to me.

He didn't want any competition
when he was gonna Rob me later.

And he did.

And so, yeah.

So he cut the, the strap off my neck,
like a man person underneath the jacket.

Yeah.

And I thought I was gonna get a yeah.

Razor blade.

Know, off my neck had an ambulance
standing a block away, but

that was the most frightening
thing I did, uh, in my career.

And I had, uh, PTSD for about three weeks.

Mm-hmm I went immediately to Thailand.

I was walking around bumbling
around banging my head on

things and falling off a curbs.

And just, yeah, it's
like having a chip tooth.

Your tongue goes over that chip portion.

It's gone leave it alone.

Yeah.

But it's like, I day night
that's a good explanation.

I'd re re I would, I would rerun
the scenarios in my head and

sometimes they would change.

What if the guy had to
slip my, uh, throat?

What, you know, what if
he booted me in the face?

What if this happened?

When I, you know, and, um, it
was, it was quite frightening.

So I did get a, I did get accommodation
for it, but it was for meritorious

service because the, uh, uh, UN mentioned.

Uh, person in the police department
who I would just say is plain jealous

says you can't premeditate bravery.

I go, isn't that the isn't that
the essence of bravery will you

say, wow, this is gonna hurt.

It's gonna hurt.

I'm doing it anyways.

I'm doing it anyways.

That's bravery not to
run around the corner.

Oh, it happens the bank robber.

Oh.

And they, you, you pull out your
gun and they drop their gun.

You would get it for bravery
for, uh, stopping a bank robbery.

But right.

Anyways,

no, that's, uh, you know, the anticipation
of the event, the anticipation of the

fight is always worse than the fight.

right.

Yeah,

exactly.

I'm 45 minutes.

I'm waiting, you know, and I had a
little bean in my ear and Toby's,

uh, uh, telling me what's going
okay, they're forming a human shield.

They've got five people
standing around you.

I'm, I'm laying on a, a piece of car
on a cardboard in, in the lane way.

Yeah.

Uh, having bought some crack, pretend
to smoke it and pass out, which right.

Doesn't really make a lot of sense.

But anyway, they, they bought it.

uh, and, um, They say, oh,
the guy's for kneeling down.

He's grabbed your strap and
he's sling away at your thing.

Uh, you know, it's just like 45 minutes.

Like that both nights, I was just
like, oh God, when's it gonna happen?

Yeah.

And, uh, you know, I
just had one good hand.

I was gonna sit up.

That was the, the, uh, the
signal that they've been robbed.

Yeah.

I just sit up and, um, the guy
saw away and then he laughed and.

No Al hasn't given the signal yet.

So he went around the corner,
the knife he had was two dull.

So he bought a razor blade.

So he could saw the, oh man
strap right off my neck.

Right.

And then the, then the,
uh, robbery went down.

He couldn't make it easy for me to off
. But you, you talk about, you know, you're

inside your head and I'm pretending to
be asleep snoring and the, the stuff

that runs through your head, the, your
mind bounces around and, you know yeah.

The funny

games that plays.

Yeah.

People, the other police officer behind
panic bars, you know, right in the

hotel panic bar where the word panic.

Yeah.

It's like now it's like panic, you
know, strong arm, you know, I, uh,

this, uh, oh, it's just like stuff
would run through my head and.

Even scenarios.

I'd be trying to shut my mind
off to not worry about it.

I gotta concentrate on snoring here.

Um, uh, I couldn't let my
mind get, uh, too preoccupied.

And then I'm hearing the play by
play in my ear underneath my helmet

and I'm going, oh God, I wonder
how this is gonna end, end up.

But, um, yeah.

And always said old timer
and they used the footage.

It went around the, uh, north
American continent at least.

Yeah, I guess.

Yeah, it was pretty classic
operation, but very interesting.

But that, that was diff even that
was difficult to pass because we

had to bring in the use of force
or, um, uh, the undercover, um, a

trainer to look at our operational
plan to make sure that, uh, oh fuck.

I'm in my last year.

So I'm expendable, but they didn't
want, they didn't want the paperwork

saying, oh, he died, you know, poor Al
got his neck slashed, then he's dead.

So you know, a lot of paperwork
there, but he wanted to make sure.

That, um, we could do it.

And he looked at my skillset and my,
my own, uh, undercover, um, time in

Strikeforce and, um, things like that and
realized that yeah, he had a good plan.

Uh I'm you know, I'm a good, uh,
decoy and, um, so I went with it.

Somebody else could have just
shut it down, you know, they'd

say no, it's too dangerous.

Being conservative.

I was surprised actually, they, they
okayed it, but maybe they didn't like me.

I mean, a couple enemies, so, well, yeah,

go.

I think, uh, having the background in
the police judo and having the, uh, the

physical capabilities probably really
helped with the mental resiliency.

Yeah.

In those

days, it wasn't in, you
know, it was in 2005.

Right.

So it was, um, sort of predates
police, judo, uh, martial arts.

Yeah.

But my martial arts, I was, uh, quite
confident in my physical abilities.

Uh, even though I was,
uh, year from retirement.

Um, I've, you know, my, so my
physical decline was, uh, on its

way, you know, happening, uh,
even to this day, I'm still fit.

Like I'm a problem.

I mean, you're 70 and you're you're fit.

No, I'm still running and doing all kinds
of things, doing weights and doing martial

arts, but, um, Um, the, um, tactically
mentally, I, I could go back into patrol

tomorrow at age 70 mm-hmm because,
uh, my, my mind, I still read case law.

I'm I teach police ju I go on
police course training courses.

What the fuck are you doing here?

I, you retired a long time ago.

Yeah, I, but you know, I go, go
for a walk along to ride alongs,

but keeps your work relevant too.

Yeah, exactly.

I wanna be say, oh, when you know,
18 years ago when I was on that job,

this is what we did, you know, mm-hmm
I wanna be sort of, uh, current,

and then of course my use of force
having to write this book about.

Please use of force.

I have to be, this is cutting edge, right?

This, this is not 40 years ago.

Yeah.

This is cutting edge stuff.

Right.

And so, uh, so like I say, I could, I
could go back on the street tomorrow and,

um, and uh, do quite well, well, I have

a feeling that's a lot of officers out
there that will benefit greatly from

this book and the subsequent books
that, uh, that you've, uh, alluded to

both in this podcast and in this book.

Yeah.

So

from this, I'm going to.

Police are lazy and cheap.

Sure.

So this book's, I don't know,
86 bucks or something it's

expensive and for good reason,

what's your life worth?

Yeah, what's a lawsuit

worth what's but, um, yeah, so, and,
and, um, and, and they don't want to,

they don't want, now Wade through all
this stuff, let alone try and practice it.

So too, it might be a bit much for the,
the average flat foot, but, um, I'm

gonna make a, from this, I'm gonna do a
prey of it and call it essential joint

locking technique for law enforcement.

It'll be like arresting people for
dummies, you know, mm-hmm but so

that'll be coming out, uh, next year.

So it'll be maybe a third
of the size of this book.

So rather than doing, you
know, four different shoulder

cranks to rest of 'em right.

I'll just teach one and, and.

Basically in here there's I, I just broke
down roughly eight forms of resistance.

You grab an arm.

He can, you can, he can bend his arm.

He can straighten his arm.

He could, he could pull away.

He could push into you.

He could drop straight to the ground.

He could do all these, you know,
eight trying to attack you.

Yeah.

So eight different kinds of resistance
and I'm going, okay, just learn one.

Yeah, just one counter.

So if you grab somebody, they
can do one of those eight things.

Now in the academy, they
might teach you two.

Mm.

So when I say, well, if
you're smart, you'd learn all.

Eight mm-hmm eight.

If you learn six, then act surprised if
the other one or the other two come out.

Mm-hmm , you know, so that's,
that's, that's all you have to do.

And, and they can look at this
book and say, I don't like this.

I love this technique.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna use that technique.

And it's, you know, the pictures are
easy enough to follow and there's arrows.

Totally it's well written.

Yeah.

Uh, and my first book, I was, uh,
entitled chink, which is a joint

locking, uh, season and controlling
in, in, um, ground fighting.

Mm.

Because I.

coming from the San show, uh, aspect
of, um, Wu, the Chinese marshal.

It said judo without the that's like
throwing without the ground fighting.

Right.

And then I was coming into Jule
and the groundfighting so had all

these, a type personality, policemen
ripping, trying to rip my head off.

And then, so I grab a finger and
I'd bend it or whatever, trying to

get myself out of an headlock or
something say, well, you can't do that.

I said, well, what do you mean?

I just did it.

Mm-hmm . And I said,
no, you can't do that.

It's against the rules.

Oh, we have rules here.

Got it.

And then that's why I was sort of
disillusioned by, even though judo is a

good, basic martial art, I was almost,
I was almost ready to quit judo yeah.

At the police station
because of its rule bound.

Mm.

And then I was finding, I was
going to the police academy

during the day, sometimes all day.

And then I'd come to the judo class at
night with a Brian Chipper's judo class.

And it's saying, this is what
we're doing in at the academy,

just for the police that are here.

Mm.

And then when I was, uh, um, you know,
um, at the academy I going, this is

what we're doing in the judo class.

That would be good.

Right.

And then I'm going back and forth.

I'm going, well, wait a minute.

Why don't I just combine the, the essence
of judo, the practical stuff out of judo,

take away all, all forms of traditionalism
and rules and all that stuff, anything

to do with sports, strip it, bear.

Yep.

And so, and, and then combine it with
the, the control and arrest techniques.

And then I went there.

There's my martial art.

There it is.

I, I couldn't find it.

and I I've got certain techniques
from different, uh, agencies, but

there it is, we'll create a, a Toby.

And I decided to create this new
martial art, call it police judo, and,

um, spend a lot of time developing it.

Um, and, um, so in essence, it, it becomes
a, um, a really good solid method of,

uh, controlling and arresting people.

Well, where can people get this book?

Well, I think you just go
on Amazon, uh, CA yeah.

Or Al arsenal books.com.

There's a, a page I'm gonna
start writing a blog on that.

Uh, Al arsenal books, plural.

I'll, I'll put the links up in and yeah.

Description for sure.

And the description below hit
the like button hit the like

button.

There you go.

Yeah.

Don't forget to subscribe.

Yeah,

exactly.

So, um, so it's been, uh, a.

uh, interesting, uh, uh, journey
from say, starting in say 1986,

even though I started my martial
arts training in, uh, 71.

Mm.

But, uh, it became more practical and I,
I, I sought out the more pro, uh, more, I

start with the more practical methods of,
uh, getting, taking people into custody.

And I, I dropped karate because.

this wasn't working can, but
yeah, I can't break people.

Yeah.

You know, I, I, so I, I fell back
on some joint locking techniques I

learned at, you know, jujitsu seminars,
for example, mm-hmm . And then, uh,

I got into, like I say, the, the Wu,
the, the chink, the joint locking,

and specifically that, which I.

For master show yang, who was my
instructor, uh, and, um, and he, um,

instilled in me and as with some other
instructors, uh, about the VA, the

beauty of joint locking mm-hmm . And,
um, so I just refined those techniques

and, and incorporated a bunch of
them into the control and arrest.

Tactics that, uh, F fantastic that
the police were already doing.

And, and it's a good, it's
been a good diffusion of, um,

old and new, uh, techniques.

Yeah.

And, um, and, um, and like I say, the,
um, it really makes, if you read the book,

it, it really makes it clear, um, the
importance of controlling somebody versus

holding them in the difference between
sport techniques and street techniques.

Right.

And, you know, standing on your, staying
on your feet versus going to the ground,

these are all really, really basic things.

That I'm still shocked that police
trainers don't seem to appreciate

they don't you think they figured
out pretty quick when they go to

the street, they just jump on.

They just follow their, their martial
arts training, blindly almost, you

know, they, um, he's the odd guy.

He's, you know, he's trained in
jujitsu, but he get, they get it.

You talk to 'em two minutes, they get it.

Yeah.

But they just don't, haven't had a
much opportunity to break out of it.

So they, well it's

that linear or rigidity of thought
that a lot of people can get into,

particularly in law enforcement.

If

there's a imagine for me, I was
third degree, black belt and

karate, and I come into a ch club.

I hated being on the ground.

Yeah.

It was so foreign to me.

I was just strictly stand up guy mm.

And punching and kicking.

And it was horrible and getting
close to sweaty men and.

And they're GE and, oh, I, it just
drove me nuts, but it was because I was

partnering with Doby and he'd dragged
me to these, uh, these judo classes.

Yeah.

So I stuck with it.

And then I came to appreciate, uh,
the beauty of judo in terms of, um,

being able to manipulate the human
body mm-hmm , um, to get them on the

ground and, and, uh, and control them.

And then, but like I say, I was turned
off by the, um, techniques that were

impractical for street use, but then,
you know, please judo resolved that

cuz we just dumped those techniques.

Impractical techniques took
the good stuff out of judo.

So it's like a, uh, I was a little
bit reluctant about calling this

Toby suggestion, calling it, police,
judo, the new martial art mm-hmm you

know, it would've been, I would
better preferred something defend do

or something, you know, , you know,
so that there's no preconception.

Of you hear police judo and police go,
oh, you're running around a pajamas.

No shit, no, it's it's gentle way.

Right?

Yeah.

Got a gentle way and all this
stuff, and they think of this, it's

a sport, it's an Olympic sport.

And you knows so far from
that people would, yeah.

People would say, oh, it's why do I wanna
learn a sport type thing, even though

presumed you JSU was a sport, but sure.

But I don't know.

They, I just, I thought it would.

would turn people police off, but
then I thought, oh, on then, on

the other hand, I thought, well,
how will the judo community react?

Right?

There's only one form of judo.

And now they're, we're saying we're
appropriating the name a little bit.

Police judo.

Well, uh, professor conno, when
he invented judo in back in 18 83,

82, 83, he turned us back in Japan.

There was hundreds of styles of jujitsu.

That's a precursor to jujitsu.

And, uh, he turned us back in all those
and saying, no, I wanna create a, I

wanna create something that, uh, he was
a high school teacher and, uh, and he,

he wanted to teach, um, we, we didn't
even call it a sport back in those.

He wanted to teach something
that school kids could learn.

Mm.

And his essence was to
create a better citizen.

Mm, make them a be it's polishing
the mirror to make a better person.

You can see yourself more clearly
and, and be, be a decent human being.

Well, if, uh, professor conno were
alive today, he's saying, well, then

the judo people, if they had said,
oh, professor, they, uh, they've, you

know, they've, um, bastardized judo.

Well, yeah, what'd they do, uh,
they're trying to make better police

officers using superior technique.

And, uh, and part of their grading,
uh, concept is that they have to

do, uh, proven history of, uh,
volunteerism and, uh, and yeah.

Yeah, they're trying not to hurt people
and they're trying to be, you know, yes.

Familiar.

What's your point?

Yeah.

Sounds.

Sounds good.

So he would be clapping
if you were alive today.

I guarantee cuz I know there's I know,
uh, four eighth degree block belts.

That's about as high up as you
can get, you might see a ninth

down floating around, but uh, but
so I know four personally that

love the concept of police judo.

They loved how we've used and they're
proud that the word judo is in

our new martial art police, judo.

They actually appreciate because they
can say, ah, look at, um, police are

using our, the validates it basics.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And these eighth degree black
belts, they they're interested in.

They're gonna buy this, but they
they're interested in this book.

Right.

Because they people often come to
them saying, well, we wanna learn

something that's proc like self defense.

Mm-hmm . because it's all stor
uh, the heavy duty people are all,

um, immersed in sports aspect.

Mm-hmm and then somebody says,
oh, we want to learn the, the

street applications of this stuff.

Mm-hmm . And the little week
on that, and then going, well,

look at this it's right here.

They've, they've taken the street
out, they've taken the basics

of judo and they've made it into
the street applications, which

reminds me of another story.

Again, I was mining mail
business in, uh, Barta.

And, uh, I sent Toby, uh, an
email saying, I, I just, before I

left, I, I read, um, an article.

I wish I had saved it in a newspaper
about a fifth degree black belt in karate.

He was pushing his daughter in a
stroller, went into a bank and realized

that there's a bank robbery going down.

Mm.

So he grabbed the guy at the teller in
a headlock, and he said in an interview

afterwards, he said, if the guy, if
the second guy hadn't a pepper sprayed

me, I would've beat the shit out of all,
three of them, the last guy had a gun.

Mm.

And rather than being contr and saying,
oh my God, I put my daughter in danger.

Anybody else in the bank in danger?

I got into something.

I didn't see the big picture.

Uh, I didn't know what I was doing.

Why, why, why would I have
180 pound anchor in my arm?

Mm-hmm and I, I didn't know how
to defend against the pepper spray.

And I didn't see the third guy or,
you know, it's like, God, I'm glad.

I'm so glad things worked out.

But he was, he was saying it
would beat the shit out of

all three of them that, that.

Things being a little differently.

Mm-hmm oh, like this,
uh, contestant number one.

Are you ready?

Contestant, number two.

Are you ready?

Contestant, number three.

Are you ready?

Mm-hmm head to me.

Okay.

Let's fight.

Mm-hmm he would've beat the
shit out of all three of them.

I'm positive.

Sure.

If no gun, no pepper spray, maybe,
you know, but unfortunately the

bank robbery, wasn't a sanctioned
event, a sporting event.

And, and I thought what an idiot, rather
than being contr, you know, and I think

that guy needs to be street proofed.

He's confusing sport in street.

Mm-hmm , which is a, a deadly air to.

So I, I typed to Toby.

I said, oh, we should do, uh,
we should put on a course of

street proofing your martial art.

It doesn't matter what it is, come to us.

Mm-hmm . And, um, we have the expertise in
using force in terms of actually applying

it about knowing the law, yada yada, and
then three weeks later, uh, Joel Johnston.

He is a retired Sergeant.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah, so he was a use of force expert.

Yeah.

Still is.

Uh, and uh, he said, oh, I know
a fellow from, um, uh, this

organization and karate organization.

And, uh, they're looking to, to
teach us, to teach them self-defense

techniques for, because their
instructors are teaching self-defense

for women, but none of the instructors,
these are fifth downs, by the way.

Mm-hmm and.

None of 'em have been in a street fight.

And so I'm not sure if they're
teaching them what's practical

or what's effective, right.

Or whatever.

And I went good for them for coming.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

For seeing that.

And I said, well, no, we're not.

I, I said, I don't think we
should be teaching these guys.

Oh, what to do, because they're
gonna Ize whatever we teach them

and they should, we should, they
should probably, if they're training.

A certain way.

They should probably, uh, fall on
their strong points rather than trying

to learn ground fighting or throwing
mm-hmm , uh, might be a bit much.

So maybe there's things just
simple things they can do, like

don't kick to bed cuz right.

You're off balance.

Second go, the leg leg, your leg can
get grabbed, you know, um, instead of,

uh, you know, punching to the head, the
closed fists, Palm heel strike mm-hmm

so you don't break your knuckles.

Yeah.

You know, you know, the
base hit the soft yeah.

Hard, hard parts of your body,
the soft parts of their body,

this awareness, um, which is 90%
of the, um, self defense game.

So, um, so he said, okay, so no,
we, we, uh, uh, so he, the head of

the organization put it to the, uh,
all the karate schools, different

styles and saying, we wanna do this.

And, uh, they got their nose outta joint,
but police judo was gonna teach us how

to sort of, you know, fight to say, you
know, so, and then there's like some

pushback because they were getting.

Money from the go government agencies.

Right.

So they had to put it into
open tender so that they're

not just hiring their friends.

Right.

So they did.

I said, I said, if you find the me
Toby Hinton and Joel Johnson, if you

find somebody who's like Toby and I
started police, judo, new martial art,

we both have, uh, me Joel and Toby,
probably over 70, 80 years of policing

experience, probably over 125 years.

Um, I got 50 years of martial
arts experience alone, like

over a hundred years of, uh, St.

Martial arts background.

Joel's an expert in use of force.

I mean, try and find this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was a P weapons,
weapons, um, expert.

And I said, if you can find,
and we've been in, um, Scores

of street altercations.

If you can find somebody with those
qualifications, you hire them.

And he used to apologize.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I just know I gotta, I just gotta,
you know, couch out to these guys.

Um, and, uh, so anyways, they had 10, you
know, Heidi competent martial artists,

um, come in for their interviews.

I can do this, I can do this.

It's my qualifications.

And I've taught self defense for women
and other things and all this stuff.

And I got trained provincial
champions or Canadian champions

or whatever they do all this.

And they asked them all one question,
you know what that question was?

Have you ever been in
a fight that's right.

Ever been in a fight.

And he said, all, all 10 of 'em said no.

So we got the contract.

There you go.

but you know, but those 10
who came in for the interview.

They need to be street proofed
mm-hmm cause they don't get it.

Mm-hmm they're saying I've
got, I've watched videos.

I've been in the dojo and I've
done martial arts techniques.

Mm-hmm and um, yeah, I'm pretty
good at it and going, yeah, but how

about when the guy's biting you and
there you're doing neck extra and the

guy bites you in the arm or number
two, guy's kicking you in the head

and uh, you're putting neck strain.

He's pulling out a knife and
stabbing you in the guts.

Mm.

You know, it's like, how's it working out?

Yeah.

How's that working for you?

Mm-hmm well, you didn't
even know about that.

So you're gonna teach people
how to fail on the street.

I mean, Street's got, it's got no rules,
you know, lack of morality and ethics.

And uh, so anyways, those
guys need to be street proof.

Yeah.

Cuz they're dangerous.

They're telling they're teaching stuff.

That's dojo based, you know,
rather than street based.

And there's a

lot of that out there.

There really

is.

Oh yeah.

Well you.

You've seen it yourself.

Sure.

I mean, you all your viewers too, have
probably seen guys teaching gun defenses

and knife defenses and, and they're
just so bad and, or handcuffing even,

I'm just going, scratching your head.

How can they do that?

Yeah.

I was watching one video and
the guy was putting on a pair

of handcuffs, honest to God.

He, I think he had 'em
both on, in a second.

One second.

It was like, like that I go, holy crap.

But I just going what a useless skill.

And I can tell you that the
guy who's doing that without,

I didn't know his background.

Mm-hmm he, he cannot be a police officer.

No officer would spend any amount
of time doing something that's,

uh, totally useless in, in for
realistic and practical purposes.

Yeah.

So you had, you have your hands exactly.

Spaced this much apart.

You had to have I bed.

Yeah.

And you have that it's like, it
was like, it was totally a useless

skill but it was, it was impressive.

Impressive was all good out.

But it saw the guy saying, no,
I'm not putting my hand behind

your back, raises his hands up.

Then what?

Right.

That your technique is, is,
is like bending over at the

waist and doing all this stuff.

If he's doing that, then getting
him to put the handcuffs on himself.

So it's like, uh, here's, here's
a useless skill that no one will

ever use and, uh, practice it.

It's dumb.

Well, I'm looking at the time here
and I wanna make sure that we're

um, uh, so got the listeners from

eight or sure they have nodded off.

Uh um, third Ramo Coke into it.

There you go.

um, is there anything else we should
be covering before we wrap it up?

Oh, geez.

Uh, gonna have to have
me back for a few more.

Um, Podcast, because I get,
I get so much to talk about.

I, I, there's some stories I

wanna ask you about, I told you at
the, at the get out that I asked

around a little bit, if anyone had any
stories and they're like Al arsenal.

Yeah.

I got some Al stories.

It's like, okay, let's hear 'em.

And everyone went quiet.

So you have

some friends said I'll track 'em down
to I'll know I'll track 'em down and,

and they know you'll track 'em down.

I can kill 'em with an eyelash or, uh,
I know more ways to kill 'em than they

know how to die or I'll hit 'em so hard.

They'll be the first person in heaven,
in a wheelchair type of stuff, you know

but, uh, yeah, I know I'm slowing down.

They'll probably catch me when I'm 80.

They'll stick there, stick, stick
my cane through my wheelchair,

spokes have their way with me.

But, uh, but I'm uh, uh, yeah, I've,
uh, , I've got a bit of a reputation.

Uh, if you dig down deep enough,
you know, we've been Toby and I

invariably been called renegades or
cowboy cops and, uh, the, uh, and

the, um, journalists is all happy
and that they screwed us around them.

We're Toby and I are highfiving
each other, you know, it's

like, well, this is good.

we think they're ruining our, our
careers, but they, they realize

that we enjoy the notoriety.

Sure.

And, uh, yeah, so we, we
stepped outta the box.

We were thinking, um, You know, um,
thinking ahead thinking differently.

And, uh, it hasn't been an easy road,
like say having a previous mayor

wanting us, uh, both fired right.

And all stuff.

So we've, we've done a lot of innovative,
um, things in terms of educating, uh,

youth through odd squad and, and, uh,
educating police through police judo.

And, um, it's been a, um, a bit of
a struggle and it hasn't been easy

all the time, but, uh, I think that,
uh, after odd squad, like say we just

finished our 25th year anniversary gala.

And so obviously we're doing something
right there and totally worth it.

And police judo is, um, you know,
2010 plus, uh, uh, getting, getting in

there and the roots go back decades.

absolutely with it.

Uh, so we, we want to be
doing some things, uh, right.

And, um, yeah, so it's, uh,
I, I got a million stories.

I, you know, I've been around the world
a few times and yes, you have around the

block

for sure.

Uh, I'd love to dig into those as well.

Yeah.

I, I really, really appreciate you coming
on to share those stories and the, the

comprehensive joint locking techniques
and the book that you've put out and it's,

uh, I'm not all the way through it, but
I've gone through a good portion of it.

Uh, very well worth it.

Anybody out there that's
on the fence, uh, get it.

It's worth the money there's
techniques in there that will

help you out whether you're law
enforcement or not law enforcement.

Uh, definitely go pick this book up.

Oh, appreciate it.

Yeah.

Thank

you.

Thanks for having me here.

Thanks so much for being on the social.