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Starting: January 2024
This weekly podcast is unique in higher education. All sides of Issues, challenges, and opportunities from across higher education are presented and discussed in an entertaining style and format.
Dr. Gary Stocker, Dr. Joseph Pellerito, and their guests review, discuss, and debate the issues of the day in higher education.
Gary (00:02.574)
Welcome back to the April 11, 2024 podcast episode of College Counterpoints, where we model how to properly disagree when we talk about any and all higher education topics. And I was thinking about the total eclipse from this past Monday, Joseph, and before I introduce you, you know me, I like to draw analogies. And we're going to talk about college closures in some form or fashion today. And I fear...
And I've talked about this before and I'll talk about it again. I fear there are many, many more colleges, programs, majors, and more that just like Eclipse are going to go dark in the coming months and years. And with that, I welcome my partner, Dr. Joseph Pellerito Jr. and Joseph, you know I'm right.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:50.811)
Hey, Kerry, even if you are, I'm not going to admit it. Good to see you, my friend.
Gary (00:56.846)
We have as usual two topics and two news stories for you today. Let's get right to them.
If you've not read the books that Jeff Selingo writes, and the most recent one is Who Gets N and Why, you've got to do that. He provides a good perspective for all stakeholders in colleges, be it students and families, community stakeholders, college leaders, faculty, staff, the whole thing. And he uses a term Jeff Selingo does, and Joseph, I want to talk about that with you. And I'm going to kind of paraphrase what he posts on his website. And he says that there are two basic types of colleges. One is Sellers, and he says,
does about 10 % of all public and private colleges are sellers, and there are buyers, and that's everybody else. And the essence of buyers is he calls them the have -nots, not in terms of academic quality, Joseph, but in terms of admission. And he notes that although these have -nots, these buyers might provide even a superior undergraduate education, they're not really the select class.
And they essentially, these buyers essentially buy students, the reason it's got that term, because they do it with tuition discounts. And if you're not a Yale, if you're not a Harvard, if you're not a University of Michigan, a USC, and others in that top 10%, you've got to buy students is the point that that salingo makes. And the sellers are those that say, hey, here's the deal, take it or leave it.
And we've seen that with cars, we've seen that with computers, we've seen that other places as well. And he's got some stats, and I won't bore you, Joseph, with what he uses to do that. I can put that in our show notes. And here's my point. And then I'll give it to you, Dr. P. Buyers, all these buyers are focused on tuition discounts. It's effectively diving to the bottom as...
Gary (02:44.654)
close to the bottom they can get while still making a couple bucks. Are most colleges, Joseph, becoming kind of like Walmart, the low cost provider and everything they offer?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (02:55.355)
Yeah, you know, there's a couple of different things I'm thinking about with this. First of all, the designer schools, as I call them, it's like designer clothing back in the old days, you know, Jordache and the rest of it. And I'm dating myself right now. But, you know, the question is, you know, what's the value in a designer label? Does that necessarily make it better than, and I would say it doesn't. I would say there are many very, very good schools.
that would not be considered designer. And these are both public institutions as well as nonprofit privates. But that's a cultural issue and that's another conversation. My real concern is that schools that are feeling some perhaps compulsion to, and I'll use the term desperation to put individuals in seats, come up with,
some pretty interesting schemes in terms of discounting tuition. And I react to it in this way. I'd rather see a very clear path for students to understand these are my costs in totality. Do away with fees, for example, all these hidden fees. Look, there should be a one -stop shop.
you should be able to go online on any institution and find how much it's going to cost myself or my adult child. And that's not the case today. It's very difficult. And so with these deep discounts, it's in some ways smoke and mirrors. And I'd prefer that schools do away with it altogether.
Gary (04:37.71)
Yeah, and we've had that conversation before and I know I'll have it again, but to focus on the quality piece on this, and I don't remember if Jeff Salingo said this or not, but there's a point that's been made, Joseph, that says it's not really important, it's more important that you got into Harvard than it is that you graduated from Harvard because of the expectations of getting in are more substantial than actually graduating. Have you heard that before?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (05:05.499)
Yeah, I suppose there's some validity to that and I respect him, of course, and his opinions. But at the end of the day, Gary, it's really about what kind of value are students getting from their investment of time and money. And again, it should lead to a robust career that's going to be able to not only provide them with opportunities to put food on the table and live a productive and meaningful life,
But there should also be other kinds of benefits too, like the benefits of, you know, the camaraderie that you get from attending school and the relationships that you build and the strong alumni association. And you shouldn't have to worry about whether that school is going to be closing or not. That's, that's maybe you can start there.
Gary (05:53.486)
Yeah, great point. Great point. Great point. Topic two. If you saw the website best colleges dot com, you would think they would talk about the best colleges, right? Best. That's in the name. Best colleges dot com. Yeah, this week, one of their featured stories was one that talks about the list, the number of colleges and names of colleges that have closed since closed or merged since March of 2020, March of 2020.
And it's fascinating Joseph that a place like this that has traditionally just talked about the things you want to do in colleges, the colleges you want to go to, say, hey, look at this long list. Now, they make a couple of points. We're going to talk about this later on. Just over half of students who experienced a college closure did not re -enroll. And that's going to be one of our news stories today.
and seven out of 10 students impacted by a college closure experienced an abrupt closure. Now it doesn't define abrupt, I would assume same semester would be kind of the term associated with that. You and I have beat on this for forever, we're probably gonna beat on it from this day forward. Colleges are not doing any of us favors by not being upfront with their financial status, Joseph.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (07:09.883)
Well, absolutely. I mean, you know, I think it's an ethical responsibility for decision makers at the college level. And that's mainly, you know, deans and directors, but also presidents and even boards to hold their people accountable, to communicate the health and viability of their institutions to their stakeholders. And that includes not only students and their families, but faculty and staff as well.
We've got to get a handle on this Gary and we're beyond the point of sort of asking and begging for decision makers to do the right thing. We need intervention at this point and we need regulation.
Gary (07:51.694)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of the notes in this bestcolleges .com article was that since these closures have started in that time frame, since 2020, 41 ,000, a little bit more than 41 ,000 students have been impacted. Now there are many who cite all these college closures and it's been about one a month, private nonprofit colleges since 2016 by my count. They say they're small, they're religious.
doesn't mean anything. Well, guys, that's 41 ,446 lives that have been impacted, Joseph. That's a travesty. And even the designation of religious. And there's one guy who writes for Forbes all the time. He says, well, it's just religious colleges that are closing, no big deal. But his definition must include any colleges religious that has a Bible in the library, because he's taking great poetic license with that.
And this is a travesty. Yes, they may be small in comparison, both in absolute number and in percentages, for sure for percentages, but that's 41 ,000 plus students who had a bad experience they didn't have to have, sir.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (08:59.003)
Yeah, I gotta tell you, I'm gonna give you two points for that, Gary, that point you just made because I think it's really a good one. You know, even if a single student is affected, we've gotta be aware of how they have been affected. And if that was my son or daughter or my spouse or someone I cared about, anyone else, it would matter to me. And so I think, yeah, we need to...
We need to set aside the sort of quantitative analysis that's void of any sort of real understanding of the human impact and realize that, yeah, these closures are affecting people's lives. And I know we're going to be talking a little bit about in what ways does it affect people's lives. And so I'm looking forward to that. But yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
Gary (09:50.158)
One of the interesting things that's coming out of this, I'm going to take the discussion in a little bit different direction, is you know me, I'm a data nerd. And I had a conversation just this morning with another data nerd. That's always a fun conversation. We have two data nerds on both ends of the call. And here's what's happening. And here's what will make these changes you and I talk about, colleges being more forthright. There are an increasing number of higher education data entrepreneurs out there.
taking that concept of money bomb, remember that from the Oakland Athletics and baseball many years ago, and they're applying it to colleges. So my message to colleges, and you may agree or disagree, Joseph, is hide it, don't hide it, but there are risks because there are data, higher ed data entrepreneurs like myself, I plead guilty, they're gonna point this stuff out, and they will increasingly point this out if you are not financially healthy, sir.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (10:37.403)
Absolutely.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (10:41.403)
Yeah, no, I love what you're saying, Gary. I love Moneyball, by the way. And I love the idea that we can use numbers to get to the truth because that's ultimately what we're seeking. It's truth. When you combine the data that you're talking about that's quantitative, predominantly, with qualitative data that comes from interviewing stakeholders such as faculty and students and their families,
That's a pretty powerful approach to shining a bright light on the reality that these institutions are facing. So with that said, let me transition here and bring you our first sponsor, College Viability. Here's the story too many college leaders face. They have a handle on their enrollment, graduation rates, and more. They have no idea what their
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Gary will put a link in the show notes.
Gary (12:13.486)
And Joseph, as we continue, I've got to make note of the fact that you're being way too nice to me today. I've got some Kleenex right off to the side because, you know, I need sometimes to wipe the tears from my eyes that aren't associated with allergies. But let's, you know, let's attack a topic here that you and I discussed off microphone before. And Lesley University, let's go to Massachusetts. And Lesley University, their faculty, Joseph, is really good at no confidence votes.
sarcasm alert now if they could only graduate more than 50 percent of their students. Now this this this graduation rate this is a trite exercise. No confidence votes Joseph really indicate that faculty have no real power in running a college except except what they teach and that they teach and they are almost universally good at that and you've heard me say this before and I'm gonna say it again faculty stick with what you are good at.
teach stuff, let management be management. I'll conclude my thoughts on this. I really think that diminishing the mind numbing slowness, Joseph, the mind numbing slowness of faculty in business decisions is long overdue.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (13:36.315)
Well, first of all, Gary, one comment you made, and I'm going to go out on a limb here, to say that faculty are universally exceptional or excellent, unfortunately, I don't think that's true. And I think that diminishes the praise that those faculty that are truly exceptional deserve. It's interesting, right, your professor and a number of other
sort of independent pathways have emerged over time in response to that very statement. So it's interesting. But I agree that faculty should focus primarily on curriculum without a doubt, professional development without a doubt, program assessments so they can understand what they're doing well and what they need to improve. No doubt.
But I still stand by my statement that I've said over and over again, which is there needs to be shared governance. The decision makers in most institutions are not getting it done, Gary, especially the ones that are at risk for closing or that will close. And I think it's time for all hands on deck. I've said it before. I'll say it again. There are many faculty and institutions that could bring interesting, unique and dynamic perspectives to the table and.
I say it's high time to do that. I also think that other stakeholders should be involved as well, including students and parents. But, you know, that remains to be seen if that's going to happen.
Gary (15:09.454)
Well, if we're bringing students, parents, let's add dogs and cats. Let's throw in some lawnmowers. Let's throw in the mailman. Joseph, what other business? So, I'm not sure universal is the right word, but I'll use it. So universally.
are asked to run the business. You know, McDonald's doesn't ask its employees what hamburgers to sell. Macy's doesn't ask its employees what clothes to sell most of the time. Car dealers don't go to their employees and say, well, should we have black tires or blue tires? That was silly. I'll stick with it. So why is it that higher education can't let faculty focus on what they're good at and leave the management piece, good or bad, on the management side, leave the management piece to those with some experience, some skills, some education in those disciplines?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (15:57.307)
Well, I agree that we need to let the leaders lead, no doubt. And the buck has to stop somewhere. And it's generally not at the faculty, it's elsewhere. But the problem is that faculty and students end up paying the price for poor management. And so I think there needs to be both transparency on one hand through regulation and other means, but also faculty, I believe, need to be empowered to have a say.
I know that it's not a democratic process to run an institution, but I think that it makes sense that when you have stakeholder input, you're going to have better decision -making. I'm not saying that it's the end all, but I think it's critical that we understand where faculty stand on various issues and so that they can at least feel they've had a say in the matter. And so that
I think there'd be greater buy -in also if the process follows that approach.
Gary (17:00.366)
I don't know. If faculty are unhappy with the organization they're at, just like McDonald's and Macy's and the car dealers I just set up, that's why God invented the resignation letter. You resign, you go somewhere else. I know it's not a perfect analogy, but I'm trying to make the point that this mind -numbing slowness that I mentioned a couple of minutes ago is not contributing to colleges moving forward, sir.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (17:28.379)
I think the problem though, Gary, is the decisions are made in a vacuum. And if the faculty understood the full context, they might be more ready to support that decision than simply respond with a vote of no confidence or pushback or worse, Gary, worse is when there's a lowered morale and people start sort of criticizing the institution, criticizing leadership.
That's a recipe for diminished morale and just a poor work environment, which impacts the quality of education that's being delivered. So I think it's important to be transparent. It's important to allow people to understand the full context. And maybe the option is perhaps get feedback as well.
Gary (18:24.046)
And before I, you're gonna run with the last news story for the day. But before we go there, I think this is a perfect example. We're not even close to being of the same mindset on this topic. And yet I'm always pleased with the way you and I go back and forth to discuss things we don't even come close to disagreeing with. And that's a big premise of college counterpoints is to say, hey, you're wrong, but do so with respect, with logic and those kinds of points. Joseph, it's all yours.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (18:50.267)
Absolutely. So our next story, Gary, is really compelling. It's in higher ed dive. And it's a dive brief. It's titled, Less Than Half of Students Whose Colleges Abruptly Close Go On to Enroll Elsewhere. This really, I got to tell you, it really kind of shocked me when I saw this. It woke me up and it made me realize that, you know,
Your point earlier about human beings being affected by closures, especially that are abrupt, that aren't planned, that aren't coordinated, where there wasn't transparency, but it was just kind of, you know, dropped on the students and their families and faculty and staff. They're very much affected. And it reported, it's the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center, which is well respected.
Less than half of students whose colleges close end up re -enrolling in another institution. Less than half. That's shocking, Gary.
Gary (19:59.374)
It is, and let's be blunt. While the blame certainly lies with college leaders, we can understand the concerns they might have about self -fulfilling prophecies where they say we're in trouble. You're going to be in trouble. They say we're about to close. You're going to close. That's only where part of the blame lies. I would offer Dr. Pellarito that the big issue is with these pathetically
set up accrediting agencies. You see I paused that because I had to think about how to describe that. They are nothing more than iDotters and T -Crossers that do nothing that could have positively impacted those 41 ,000 lives we talked about earlier in the podcast from going to a college that they darn knew darn good and well was at some risk of being financially unhealthy and possibly even closing, yet they sat on that information.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (20:52.699)
Yeah, you know, I have to disagree. I think accreditors do by and large an outstanding job with ensuring that the bar is set at a, and it's not a moving target and that we maintain excellence over time. But here's the problem why you're wrong, Gary. Accreditors are only involved in the process at...
specific times throughout the year or over a period of years. It's not an ongoing relationship necessarily. So really the answer is there needs to be more regulation. I'm not a big government guy as you know, but we need more regulation. The state legislatures have to find a way to hold decision makers accountable.
to follow a prescribed path so that we can ensure stakeholders, taxpayers, are informed of what's happening. You know, for example, there are many states right now that are working on this very thing, Kansas, Vermont, Georgia, Connecticut, Oklahoma. These are states that are saying, the governors are saying, you know what, we need to get involved here, both in public institutions, but also private because education is
in everyone's best interest.
Gary (22:15.374)
No, no, no, no, no. Accrediting agencies are, must be held accountable, Joseph, for this. It's kind of like the Greek philosopher Thucydides and one of his main contribution back in centuries ago.
was applied to behavioral interviewing this day, but he said, it is in the very nature, Joseph, it is in the very nature of human beings to act in the future as they have in the past. You can see the connection to behavioral interviewing. I make the argument that the accrediting agencies have always been I daughters and T -crossers, even as we have moved from relatively stable higher education environment to one where a college closes a private nonprofit college closes to the tune of about one a month for the last eight years.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (23:07.067)
Well, you know, if I'm reporting to the accrediting agencies annually, it's not sensitive enough to understand the changes in financial health over a period of weeks or months. It's too late at that point. And so within a given year, we need some other mechanisms to ensure that as these red flags begin to raise,
And let's face it, Gary, these institutions that are in trouble already know they're in trouble. It's not like suddenly this week they have no clue and then next month, okay, now there's a red flag. I would argue that every single institution in the country right now that's going to close and if we could, if we had a crystal ball and we looked and within the next five years, we knew which schools were closing.
Like you always say, the data is there. We can go and we can see it. And so I think that decision makers have to be compelled to report their financial concerns sooner than later. And it's not going to happen unless it's compulsory.
Gary (24:23.662)
Well, you're going to do the good point score here in a minute. I would like you to give yourself three points for that balanced discussion. But before you do that, I may take some of those away. I'm going to ask one question and then I'll let you take us to the wrap. And that is, give them a choice. You have to answer this question one or the other, no qualifications or would you choose excellence in academic content or viability?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (24:49.659)
Wow. That's a great question. Boy. I think I would choose a third, which is honesty. How's that? And transparency, but no, no, I'll answer the question. I think excellence. I have to say that there needs to be excellence first and foremost. And I would.
Gary (25:05.358)
Take away five points.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (25:18.363)
viability second. I'm going to admit it, you knew I was going to say that.
Gary (25:22.51)
Well, probably so. While you tally the score, I'll wrap up and we talked about this in the show planning, is that there was one state government, Massachusetts, who has enacted what's effectively a heads up law for private colleges. And it was in response to Mount Ida closing on really short notice back in, I think it was 2016. And there are other states where legislation is working its way through that are effectively designed to do exactly what you're talking about, Joseph. And that is to provide the public.
students, families, even communities with a heads up when a college is in trouble. It's valuable. I don't know the politics of that and how widespread we'll see that. Dr. P, take us home.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (26:04.795)
Yo, Gary, I kept score today and I've got to tell you, believe it or not, as I'm looking at my tally, I've got a set. Gary Stocker is at eight and yes, ladies and gentlemen, Joseph Pellerito Jr. is at seven. So I'm, I'm conceding today's discussion to my esteemed colleague as much as I, you know, hate to do that, but Hey, it was, it was fun today, Gary.
Gary (26:33.966)
You know, going back to the eclipse and college is going dark, which is how we started off this episode of College Counterpoints. It's going to happen. And you and I talk about this both on microphone and off. And my media is always talking about this. It's going to happen to those listening to this podcast. Is it tomorrow? Is it next week? Is it next month? Is it next year? I don't know when. Nobody knows when.
But as Joseph and I talk about on a regular basis, we need to be much, much, much more transparent from colleges to consumers. So with that, for Joseph Pellerito Jr., I'm Gary Stocker. For College Counterpoints, let's do this again next Thursday, sir.