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Up Your Average is the “no nonsense” podcast made for interesting people who think differently. Learn to navigate your life with unconventional wisdom by tuning in to Keith Tyner and Doug Shrieve every week.
If you're falling into the trap of fear and insecurity as a lot of us do, you're thinking
about yourself and worrying about yourself.
And most everyone else is too.
So if you're feeling insecure about what other people think about you or where you're at
in life, just realize most people aren't thinking about you.
And you know, you're steering the ship.
Welcome to the Up Your Average Podcast.
Where Keith and Doug give no nonsense advice to level up your life.
So buckle up and listen closely to Up Your Avenue.
Good morning, Doug.
Word up, Keys.
It's another great day at Gimbal World Headquarters.
Heck yeah.
It's a great day to be alive.
Isn't that your one of your favorite country songs?
It is.
It is.
Today we have got our guest star, our friend, the one, the only, Kristen Hacklemate.
Your daughter.
My daughter.
That little detail.
Good morning.
Good morning, Kristen.
We have just had a great.
run of guest over the last few months and I'm just excited to get some time with Kristen.
And what I wanted to talk about is living courageously because when you get old like me,
Kristen, you forget things.
Did you know that?
I forget things too.
Okay.
What have you forgotten that you want to remember?
Well, there was a day in 1984
I loaded up my Dotson two hundred SX from Evansville, Indiana.
Nice car.
And Text Instruments had filled a moving truck with my belongings, but I had probably I
don't even know if I would have had a suitcase back then.
I don't know what maybe a garbage bag is what my clothes were.
I don't know what my clothes would have been in, but I had maybe a garbage bin.
Did they even do garbage bags back then?
I don't remember Jeff and Shelly using garbage bags.
Yeah.
I don't even know what a garbage bin was.
You probably had one of those suitcases that you had to do this.
It probably was.
Those were fun, weren't they?
Uh American Touristur, I think's what they are.
Sorry.
I still have an American Touristur on a suitcase.
Yeah, so uh I had never driven on a probably a four lane interstate.
I didn't have the internet.
I didn't know
that Houston, Texas was the fourth largest city in the country.
Yeah.
And I was moving there to live.
And sweet.
So what I forgot was the amount of courage it took to just pack up and go somewhere where
I didn't know anybody.
And so I thought if we could talk to Kristen about her life of courageous living and how
she could kind of envision her encouraging young people that maybe I think like the
mismanagement of COVID's stole some of the courage from young people.
I think um maybe the advent of helicoptering parenting has done that.
But I've just watched Kristen do some courageous things and thought maybe you could be a
cheerleader to the youngsters out there and maybe the young and old all alike.
We're all young at some level.
What's what's your top few that you've seen Kristen do?
I remember in about
2014, you had asked me, Hey Keith, can I go on a trip?
And I said, only if you take Kristen with you.
It was kind of like that.
So the two of you, most people that knew what I encouraged Kristen to do, I'd think I
would be the most horrible dad on the planet Earth because I sent you to a a war zone.
I don't even know if we really knew what we were getting into.
Well, I didn't.
I
Certainly did not.
Yeah.
So why don't you guys talk about what happened with that?
Because well, the anybody anybody I told what I did at the time, they're like, what kind
of psychopath are you?
Well, I don't know about for you, Kristen, but for me, your dad invited me into a meeting.
It was a shakedown event, fundraiser meeting.
And this was at a time in my life where Caroline and I had just
come off a weekend where we were invited to some friends of ours.
They put on an event where they had a guest speaker come to their house.
And this guy, he was um big into the halftime movement.
Are you familiar with that, Keith?
Yeah.
And it kind of a cool movement.
Basically like, hey, you've worked hard for so long.
Now the back half of your life, let's live with purpose kind of thing.
Good stuff.
And so one of the things that he had challenged the crowd
And I felt like he was speaking to me was to say yes.
And so he was saying how he said yes to a lot of different adventures.
And so normally I would say no to a shakedown fundraiser meeting, but I had to say yes
because I just came off this event.
And so uh we're meeting with our friend Michael.
And and Michael says, uh, hey, the director of mission to Ukraine is coming in.
You should meet with her.
I was like, crack.
Yes, I'll meet with her.
I'm having coffee with her.
And she says, Hey, in the Ukraine voice, which was great.
She's like, You should come to Ukraine.
And I called my wife and I said, Hey, what do you think about this?
And Carolyn says, Yeah, you you should totally do it.
And then I talked to your dad, Hey, could I?
take off work to do this?
And he says, yes.
And um he says, and uh, hey, how how about you take Kristen?
And so what was my answer?
Yes.
Yes.
I I give a guy, our friend Kurt, a ride to the Toyota dealer.
He says, hey, what are you up to?
I said, well I'm planning out a trip to Ukraine.
I say you want to go?
And he says, Yes.
Yes.
And so that was a time of yes in my life.
That's me.
What about you?
Like what how old were you?
I was a junior in high school, which was also simultaneously one of my more wild years of
just kind of going off the rails as some teenagers do.
And yeah, I mean, I was hanging out in the wrong crowds, being in places I shouldn't have
been, and like the war zone?
Yeah.
In in a Indianapolis type of way.
and I think like maybe a week or two prior, I told my dad I wanted to go on a mission
trip.
I'm not sure what I had in mind.
Probably not Ukraine.
or I don't know what I why I said that or what I had envisioned.
Um but
Yeah, the next week he's asked me if I wanted to go to Ukraine with you.
And to me that sounded like a reason to not have to go to school.
So I didn't know what I was getting into.
I was like, Okay, cool.
I think that's in Europe.
I don't know.
I had to look on a map and look.
Um and next thing you know, you and I are flying internationally.
We stopped in Amsterdam, which was its own little journey, and then off to Ukraine.
I don't think either of us really knew what we would experience there, but it was
definitely a perspective shift for me.
We had the coolest little team.
Uh Kurt, our friend Kurt.
He was a uh world class sales guy at that time.
And I remember we were sitting in the back.
Kurt and our friend Ben, gentle Ben, went with us.
And um
Kurt and I were sitting in the back listening to Ukrainians sing praise and worship songs,
which was really cool.
Anytime you hear like a praise and worship song sung by a foreigner, it's a great thing.
Maybe they liked us singing.
Maybe.
But but I remember Kurt sat in the back and he goes, I I want to be a full-time pastor.
And I sat next to him, I was like,
Are you crazy?
That's a crazy idea.
And then he goes and he doesn't.
And so it was a it was truly a trip of adventure for you, for me, for Kirk, even though
Ben was sick the whole time.
I think it was a great adventure for Ben.
And um yeah, we're proud we're changed because of it.
Yeah, it was and we didn't know what
what's gonna happen with Ukraine and Russia.
I mean that was all unfolding in real time while we were there.
Yeah.
I mean we met refugees from the Crimea that happened to be in the same town that we were
in, Jetomer.
Um would you have known what a refugee was even before that?
Would that have been something you would have even Um probably not because I saw the sick
Bob Bob Marley before she knows the refugees.
I know them but slept through history class.
So seeing history in real time, it was really eye opening.
And while it was an amazing trip, it was also very heavy to see like what real struggle
was like.
Yeah, it it it was incredibly heavy to see the refugees basically slain with nothing and
um and mostly female.
That the men were dying and fighting.
So my friend Dick Stump told me years ago, do the thing you fear the most, and the death
of fear is near.
And I know off and on you've struggled with anxiety issues.
And so pushing you into anxious things would seem counterintuitive to help with anxiety,
but it seems like if you go at the things you're afraid of rather than running
away from them, it begins to help remind you that you are a courageous person.
Like you're one of the most courageous people I know.
So to act courageously, sometimes you just need some encouragement from somebody.
And so watching you navigate all that just has really brought a lot of hope and
encouragement to me.
And so then you did Ukraine.
And then you did Haiti.
And that that wasn't necessarily as positive an experience.
You learned a lot from that.
But what was there courage involved in being in Haiti, do you think?
How old were you then?
Were you in high school then?
Um, I think I had graduated high school at that point.
Sometimes years are a bit of a blur, I'm sure you guys can relate, but W what's that
supposed to mean?
uh
Common as that.
Doug, we invite these guests, and I'm not open to feedback.
Yes, I I do think Haiti going to Haiti was maybe two years after Ukraine, more or less.
Um I think I was more prepared for that having gone to Ukraine, but it was also still
shocking in a different way.
Um because
I don't know how to put it.
I mean, Ukraine is somewhat developed, but Haiti is like on a whole another level of being
a third world country.
And so I think that was more of a shock to me seeing how people live there.
But the people in Haiti were noticeably more joyful and generous and um with nothing.
Like every day, you know, these people that
have almost nothing to their name material wise, just have everything to give in terms of
hospitality and um they're joyful and grateful for what they have.
I mean, you see kids traversing mountainous zones like five miles there and back just to
go to school while meanwhile I'm like doing anything not to go to school.
Um so it was it was really cool to see
that as well and get to hang around the kids there and um share some hope from my story
and get hope from theirs too.
I remember we we had the whole family jammed in these um little elevators in St.
Louis on the arch and getting to the top of the arch and watching their sister stand back
from from the window and realizing that
Kelly was traumatized by heights.
It's a bad time to do that.
But that's where you guys discovered who's afraid of heights.
Yeah.
Poor thing.
Yeah.
And so so we all have fears and anxieties of things that we have to navigate through.
And so watching you navigate through some of those has been really a joy for me.
And and it's been fun to see you go at some of those things.
So I remember
We I don't even remember how we got you there.
We got you to San Diego to go to school in San Diego, which there was no safety net for
you, right?
I didn't think there was.
Yeah.
Hey, that that's actually that's the answer.
You didn't think there was.
But was there?
There ended up being a safety net.
Yeah.
What was the safety net?
Yeah.
That's it.
My my dad to the rescue when I needed him.
Yeah.
I didn't think there was.
Yeah.
Yeah, that that's the key right there.
Is there there always is a safety net.
Who who was the South American um explorer that said burn the ships?
And that guy.
What was it?
Cortez, I forgot.
I don't know.
Yeah.
But the idea was sometimes in life you have to take things where you burn the ships and
you know, okay, we're gonna see what happens here.
S San Diego didn't finish like you thought, right?
Not at all.
Yeah.
And yeah, you started and that and that's what that's where I think courage is putting
that first split out.
That just because you haven't tripped up doesn't mean it wasn't a courageous act.
And so the more courageous acts you take, the more courageous you realize you are.
Yeah.
Amanda says all the time, you don't know what you don't know.
And like so if you go into something
How how would you know until you get there?
And uh and then you can pivot and start making some decisions.
So what'd you do?
Well, I mean I moved to San Diego.
Wait, why did you move to San Diego?
Did we talk about that?
We didn't.
Okay.
Why'd you move to San Diego?
There are a lot of things um that led up to me wanting to go to school to San Diego when I
was in high school.
I Like like who wouldn't want to do that?
Well
That's what I thought.
I'm like, that's freaking awesome.
I applied to three schools.
Um, I applied to University of Arizona, Arizona State University, and San Diego State
University.
And I ultimately decided to go to San Diego State University.
It was always my dream to live in California and be by the ocean.
And I mean, as previously stated.
I had a lot of issues in high school and naively I thought, you know, moving across the
country, my problems will stay in one place.
I can move away from them.
And that's probably not an original thought, right?
Like a lot of people get stuck with that.
I would think so.
and I diff I definitely found out the hard way that actually your problems do follow you
if you don't address them.
So um
I struggled out in San Diego.
Try not to get emotional, but um I ended up calling my dad and saying, you know, I gotta
come home, I can't do this.
And it felt like such a failure.
Like I
went into hiding essentially once I came home.
And um now I just see it, it was truly just a redirection.
but when you're eighteen and you think you have life figured out and you move on to like
what you think is your dream and then it doesn't work out, it's hard not to feel like
ashamed and embarrassed.
Um but
I survived.
And it even though it was like extremely difficult, I think it was the best decision.
And I mean, I think personally everything happens for a reason.
So my my little motto nowadays is rejection is spiritual protection.
I think like what might be seen as
A failure or rejection to someone is actually just like I said a redirection and now that
is an original thought.
Maybe.
I feel like I got up I had up getting up from somewhere.
Get that from some mean on No, that that is that that is a great piece of advice for
someone who's experiencing rejection, who's getting their butt kicked, uh, to have a a
paradigm shift and see it differently.
That's that's really, really cool.
My guess is you didn't get that like like Oh no next month.
No.
That's Is that a new thing?
I would say in the last four or five years.
And I think too when it comes to courage, it's it's a choice.
I've not heard rejection spelled out like that.
That's good.
So you um Like n not braggadocious, but but you
or a gifted student, so a lot of things came easy for you.
So when something didn't come easy for you, the training process was a little harder
because that form of rejection when you didn't get things that you wanted would feel a lot
harder for somebody that gets straight A's or something like that, versus like a C student
who's used to those things.
So that sometimes those kind of real life lessons, um
do take a lot of time to absorb and process.
Yeah.
I and I it's something I still struggle with.
Like I'm such a perfectionist at times, but I think it's kind of like duct tape when you
go through the ebbs and flows of life.
Like the more you stick duct tape, the less sticky it gets.
So the more things you go through, it's kind of buffs you out and it doesn't feel as much
like as big of a blow, I guess.
but
It doesn't mean everything's just rabos and butterflies and easy.
Um, life can come at you fast.
But yeah, I think like I said before, being courageous, it is a choice.
Like
before like especially like going into like moving to San Diego and in high school and
even sometimes now I was living out of like such an insecure place and out of a lot of
fear.
So it was easy to kind of have my life on autopilot and the more you focus on those things
the more you notice them and um I was just
Surrounding myself with a lot of negativity, including like my thoughts.
And um I think like the major shift for me in terms of mindset, which is everything, um,
was when I was 24 and I was laying in a hospital bed and told that I have a brain tumor.
um
Which came as a surprise to me and everyone around me.
on Easter, when I was twenty-four, I had a seizure that landed me in the ER.
And next thing you know, like I get told I have brain cancer.
And I mean, at that point, I felt like once again, like my life is being put on hold.
After, you know, you get some momentum and then it's like back to the starting point.
Um, but for some reason in that experience, like I just felt so at peace with everything.
And, you know, there's a chance with any surgery, there's complications, but especially
brain surgery.
I didn't know what was gonna happen.
And ended up being okay, obviously.
Well
In my own personal opinion.
but I mean upon going through that and surviving it, I guess, I realize every day is
really a gift and a blessing.
And some people aren't afforded that blessing and I was.
So it's like you have to take every day as a gift.
and I think that's kind of where my mind ch mind shift excuse me, my mindset shifted.
I lost my train of thought, but that just created yeah, paradigm paradigm shift for me
where it's like I need to take advantage of the days that I'm given and um
Even if I'm afraid, like do the things that I want to do.
and that was huge for me.
I remember that you couldn't drive, you didn't have a job, and I said, Let's go to lunch.
And we ran into my sweet friend Doug Sweet, and he made an introduction and you were able
to ride a bicycle or walk five or six blocks from here for a job.
Which was unexplainable.
And that that provision of God's provision and even though you feel frustrated where
you're at, has just been it seems like it's just continued on that unexplainable events
have happened in your life to like that was pretty unexplainable.
That as an interior designer you could get a job that close to here was pretty amazing.
Yeah.
I was crushed.
By not being able to drive because of my surgery.
I'm like, you know, I'm 24 years old and I'm landlocked.
I just graduated college finally.
And now, like, what am I supposed to do?
I can't Uber to work every day.
Um, and sure enough, I got a job, a five-minute walk away, and it ended up being an
awesome experience and a launch pad to the next thing in my lining.
So so I was kind of uh manipulating might be the word for a hug earlier today.
But one of the things about that season was you just lived right behind the office here
and you'd come hug me every day and then you'd go off on your way.
But then one day you came in and you said, Um, I'm gonna move to Phoenix, Dad.
And I wasn't overly excited about that.
And so
What I learned in that season was uh there used to be a show like Fathers Knows Best or
something like that.
I don't know where it was, but I realized Dad Doesn't Know Best because I had to step back
and kind of address my own courage and say, Okay.
But we we did a trial cause I was like
I what I was thinking was like, surely she doesn't know how hot Houston is in the summer.
Houston, I'm sorry.
Houston saying so we did a trial out there and it was stinking hot.
But then I think you decided was it in August when you decided to move out there?
The heat of the summer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we got you out there sometime in August of twenty twenty three.
Twenty twenty three.
And so there you are.
And um we got you situated in your apartment and kind of the namesake for our podcast
happened right there.
I just remember hugging you and say, Kristen, remember you're the average of the four or
five people you spend the most time with.
And I had no idea what that would mean or who you would be spending time with.
But the current some solid dad advice right there.
Gotten a few golden nuggets from him.
So the courage to be out there was mind boggling, right?
Like there's again no safety net out there.
Did you think there was a safety net?
No.
Yeah.
I think like well, I had an unexplainable pull to Phoenix, um, which now I think I know
why, but um going back to the college thing quickly, like the fact that I had applied to
two Arizona schools in San Diego.
Eventually I was like, why would I ever want to live in the desert?
Like, I don't want to go to Arizona State or University of Arizona.
It's way too hot there.
Like, what's in the desert?
I don't know.
I totally wrote it off.
And then, you know, fast forward to twenty twenty three and I was just like, I feel like I
just wanna move to Phoenix.
And, you know, especially after the failure in California, it's like the redirection.
Yes.
Excuse me, the redirection.
Um, my perceived failure of trying to move out of state.
Um, I fifty percent of me knew I could do it in Phoenix, and the other fifty percent of me
needed to prove to myself that I could do it.
and the only way to do it is to do it.
So yeah, I in the heat of the Phoenix summer moved out there and where were we going with
this?
Just for the fact that you
didn't have failure from San Diego, the fact that you restarted it.
Like you you went at your thing with no safety net and you made it out there.
Yeah.
I think once my parents moved me into my, mind you, very small and very crappy one bedroom
apartment out there.
they left to go back to Indiana and I was kind of sitting in my apartment alone with no
furniture because my movers hadn't come there, and I was like, oh.
I may have just made a really big mistake.
And the only thing that was really on the line there was my life savings that I spent to
get out there.
But I'm like, wow, we're really doing this thing.
It was scary for sure.
And I I imagine there are just thousands and thousands of youngsters like where you've
been in life that won't take that first step because they could fall, right?
And but
My my point of view is you're falling if you don't take the step.
Like like what they just say nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Well, well, you have to risk something to gain something.
And so I I I think I felt more at peace driving away from Phoenix than I did flying away
from San Diego.
I just thought I think she's got this.
I was thinking, uh it's gonna be okay.
And it was but
But you did call me a few days later and announced to me your dog was a racist and and uh
her dog was attacking all the Hispanic people, I guess.
And I no born.
Yeah, and I I just said it, you know, Chris and I'm like two thousand miles away.
I just can't do anything.
Yeah, and so that is your that's your burden right there is was Reginald.
So Yeah.
So what do you want to do next?
Good question.
Like what's what's what's the next step of courage look like?
Well before we get that, let's get her back to Indiana.
Cause can we can we do that?
Can we get you back here?
Sure.
Yeah, we really glossed over Phoenix, but Yeah, yeah.
So so what what happened?
How did how did like you came back to Indiana victoriously from Phoenix?
So how did that happen?
What happened that got you back here?
Well upon moving to Phoenix, I uh
When I was saying that I think I knew what my pull is in hindsight, I ended up meeting my
husband Brock in Phoenix, which is a whole other story.
But um, I think that was ultimately like the pull of why I wanted to move there so bad
unknowingly, because I was gonna meet my life partner there.
But yeah, I mean, after a year and a half of marriage.
Brock was actually the one that for some reason wanted to move back here.
Well, he had never lived in Indiana, but wanted to move to Indiana um to be closer to my
family.
So as of a month or two ago, we packed up all of our stuff once again and drove cross
country back to Indiana.
And that was
Courageous of me because I didn't want to leave Phoenix.
I love it there in the desert, but I was trusting, you know, that Brock knew what was best
for us and our family.
So Brock has to be kind of courageous to go from Phoenix to Indianapolis too, though,
right?
He must have a level of courage that has to bring encouragement to you.
Yeah, I mean he's
Never he's he will say that he's lived through a winter, but I don't think he's ever lived
through a true winter.
So he'll find out soon enough what it's like to live somewhere with all four seasons.
I love it.
I love it.
So w go back to your question now.
What's the next like y you've got you've gotta adapt to Indiana, you've got to navigate
and so what's courage look like then now going forward?
Good question.
I haven't fully figured that out yet.
Well, we um we know what maybe that's the answer.
Not knowing?
Yeah.
Just knowing you're courageous is probably easy, you know.
And just going through it.
But day by day.
But I've seen a lot of joy on your face lately.
What's going on with that?
Well, as soon as I moved back, I became an auntie to my little niece, so
That's been an awesome, I guess, addition to all of our lives as well as a reason to keep
me around here in Indianapolis for a little longer.
We we decided to downsize and and we'll become homeless in the next probably two or three
weeks.
And so Brock and Kristen have taken over the family dinners on Wednesday nights and
That's gonna be a lot of fun.
That's just enjoy to get everybody around the table and see what happens in that chaos.
There's always some sort of chaos.
Well, you have really inspired me over the months how you've navigated through anxiety.
There's gonna be a lot of people that are watching that young, not only young ladies, but
young men are fearful of what the future is.
And I think what I hear you saying is try it.
Just try it and see what happens.
There it may not seem like there's a safety net, but something will reach out there and
provide a solution, don't you think?
Yeah, and I think two what is really hard for young kids these days is comparison.
like especially with all the social media and stuff, it's really hard to
feel like you're in a rut and then see everyone posting their highlights and comparing
your life to theirs.
And I mean the truth of the matter is it's like everyone is on their own journey and
people are only going to share the best parts and you don't know what someone else is
going through um because they likely won't show it.
And so I think it's important to surround yourself with people that truly know you,
support
You, you feel like you can share like those vulnerable parts with.
Um, and also realize, too, like if you're falling into the trap of fear and insecurity, as
a lot of us do, you're thinking about yourself and worrying about yourself.
And most everyone else is too.
So if you're feeling insecure about what other people think about you or where you're at
in life.
Just realize most people aren't thinking about you.
And you know, you're steering the ship.
So you can either stay stuck or you can move forward and try something new.
And the worst thing c that can happen is it doesn't work out and you're redirected to the
next thing and at least you have a story to tell.
A good story.
A good story.
Yeah.
Failures sometimes turn out to be the best stories.
And then they're no longer a failure.
It's only a failure if you continue to think it is.
Fail forward is what I like to say, like to get up and just flop forward.
If you're gonna flop, flop forward, right?
You can might as well just keep bailing forward, I think, or trying things that that
stretch you beyond imagination.
I've flopped all over the place, but it's been a journey and an adventure nonetheless.
Yeah, I'm proud of how you've navigated anxiety and and
difficulties and just an honor to have you hang out with us today, Kristen.
Thank you.
Yeah.
All right.
Any of you that have questions for Miss Kristen, I'm sure she's happy to reach out and
encourage you.
But thanks again.
Thank you.
Have a great weekend, Doug.