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Exploring the younger years and turning point moments of authentic, outstanding and inspiring people. See the world through the eyes of someone who may have grown up in an entirely different way to you.
Kabinga Interview Transcript
Nina: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to When I Was Young, the podcast that explores the younger years of interesting people. This podcast is a chance to slow down and hear about the world through the eyes of someone else who may have grown up in an entirely different way to you. In each episode, we explore the younger years and turning point moments that help people discover who they really are.
Nina: Each guest is someone quite remarkable with an interesting story to tell. So relax and enjoy your time with us today. I'm your host, Nina Fromhold. For the last six years I've been making audio recordings of people's life stories as private podcasts for their families. [00:01:00] This year I'm launching When I was Young, a podcast that will share some beautiful life stories with you.
Nina: All stories are true and affirmed by my guests. Joining me today is Kabinga Mazaba. Kabinga is a bestselling author of the book Confront Reclaim Your Life. She's a coach and an inspiring international speaker who challenges audiences worldwide to face into their trauma and unlock ways to support their healing and growth.
Nina: Kabinga grew up in Zambia, in Southern Africa. In her childhood, Kabinga had many places to call home, some family misfortune and significant experiences of loss and trauma. Her story is one of survival and ultimately of healing, growth, and resilience. In today's [00:02:00] podcast, Kabinga shares an incredible story, but we are going to cover some challenging content including sexual abuse, domestic violence, depression, and suicidality.
Nina: So it may not be appropriate for all listeners. We invite you to come on a journey with us through Kabinga's early years and the life-changing moments that set her on a path towards creating the life she wants to lead. Kabinga. I'm delighted to be having this conversation
Kabinga: with you today. Thank you so much for having me.
Kabinga: It's such a pleasure to be here and to be doing this with you.
Nina: Let's start with where you are in life's journey today. How old are you now? Where are you based, and what do you feel most proud of when you look at your life today?
Kabinga: I'm 45 years old this year, not 45 years old, 45 younger. I am based in Melbourne, in the western suburbs of Truganina.
Kabinga: [00:03:00] And when I reflect on my life, what fuels me the most is the sense of pride in my healing journey and the type of family I've created that I've always envisioned. And I've always had this idea of the way I wanted. Also overcoming the trauma of my past and finding my voice. I'm also an incredibly proud mom with wonderful children who inspire me every day, and my supportive husband, who is my number one cheerleader, who's been my rock throughout my journey.
Kabinga: These are my biggest blessings and constant reminder of how I've come so far.
Nina: Let's travel back in time and place now. What do you know of how your parents met and what was involved with them getting married?
Kabinga: Oh, that's quite interesting 'cause I didn't have much recollections of that. So I ended up phoning my aunt back home. I was like, gimme some hints of how mom and dad met. 'cause mom never spoke about [00:04:00] it. They met in 1979 in the Copperbelt where mom was living at the time with his family. And I read some point 'cause mom was trying to write a book. So she gave me some tips in there how they met, because my dad's uncle knew my mom's family.
Kabinga: So my dad's uncle told my dad that, I've got a woman I want you to marry. She's like this, I'm sure you're gonna fall in love with her. So dad had to travel back into the Copperbelt one and meet my mom. So that's how they got introduced. And in those days, I don't think there was a lot of dating.
Kabinga: It's like you meet, they're ready to bring the bride price, talk about it, then that's it. So that's how they met.
Nina: Tell me about the bride price. What is that process?
Kabinga: It's an interesting process. It's when the groom's family, [00:05:00] they have to pay a bridal price. It's a tradition and it's a sign of respect that two families are joining together.
So what they normally do is before the groom's family can approach the bride's family, they have the permission to put some money on the plate as a conversation opener, where they give you now permission to say, okay, you can come in so we can discuss what do you want in our home.
So it sounds like it's a sign of we are taking this conversation seriously.
Seriously? Yes. Okay. Yes. And so then what happens next? They've put the money on the plate to open the conversation. Yes. What
Kabinga: happens? The groom does not speak. Only the uncle speaks on their behalf. The uncle now says, oh, we are interested. There's a certain girl in your home we are interested in, and this is the man who is interested in her.
Kabinga: This is what he's doing. This is where he is being, and the forth. [00:06:00]
Nina: So it sounds almost like he's being recommended. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And what does the brides family do?
Kabinga: Oh they have to ask the bride if she's interested and if she's happy with the process. And I suppose mom said yes.
Nina: And then what happens now?
Kabinga: The other process of charging the bridal price, 'cause that's a separate price. Well, that's the main one. It's like how much is our daughter worth and how does that get worked out? Well, looking at how far she's gone in the education, how well behaved she's been and how she's been groomed and the looks as well.
Kabinga: Mom, I think, ticked all those boxes and dad was happy with that. I don't know how much though they were charged. I need to find out that Isn't that amazing? Yes. After they've paid the bride price, the bride's family have to organise it more like a celebration feast to welcome the man in the family [00:07:00] that he's allowed to eat in our home now.
Kabinga: So they cook all tradition of meals and the bride is on the forefront. Welcom coming him that, oh, this is how you'll be preparing the meals for your husband and the process of everything. So that's an open, now he's welcome to be in that home. And then there's the other part now where the bride's family have to arrange taking my mom or the bride to the husband's place.
Kabinga: So there's a lot of process where there's a lot of drumming, singing traditional songs. You are covered in, in the traditional veil, getting ready to be taken to your husband. So that's the traditional part.
Nina: And is this a time of great excitement?
Yes, I'm sure it is. But also kind of scary 'cause you're venturing into a different type of world that you don't know.
Nina: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that picture to life for me. When did you arrive into the world and where were your parents living [00:08:00] at the time?
Kabinga: Since they got married in 1979. I was born 1980. So something happened before. Yeah.
Nina: So do you think that they connected before they were married?
Kabinga: I think so.
Kabinga: According to my calculations, you can imagine. So I was born on 25th, March, 1980 in I'm sure by the time dad was still in Lusaka. So she was moving in and out and I was surrounded by family, of course my grandmother, 'cause I was still at my grandma's house when I was born. So that could have made it easier for mom to navigate because her parents were there and siblings were also there.
Kabinga: Yeah, mom had some support.
Nina: What is the name that your parents gave you and do you know the story?
It's kind of interesting. I kind of like it. I was born a Shalin and my dad's name was Charles. So he was really excited to have a daughter. By that [00:09:00] time, they didn't know the sex, whether it was going to be a girl or a boy.
Kabinga: So he had two names prepared and said, oh, since my name is Charles, I need my child to have a similar name. So if I was a he, I could have been named Charlie and I came as Charlene. I don't know where he got the name. It also reflected to me that he really wanted me to be part of his life, just to have that big connection.
Kabinga: I remember him calling me Dee as daughter. I was always Dee. Nice.
Nina: What is your earliest memory?
I don't remember much time with mom. I. I have these recollections of me staying with my grandparents and I have really good memories. Me crying, grandma holding me, singing songs to me. And with my mom. It wasn't much because when I was born, mom and I left and joined my dad in Lusaka until I was two years old.
Kabinga: Mom took [00:10:00] me back to my grandmother. So at the age of two, I was living with my grandparents until five years old.
Nina: And so was this your maternal grandparents or your paternal grandparents? That was my mom's mom. And so tell me what you remember.
I remember vividly, I used to enjoy eating a lot of beans and playing with cooking utensils.
Kabinga: So I remember me standing near a port of beans with a spoon trying to pick up and eat. And because my grandfather, my mom's dad used to work in the mines because the Copperbelt once, it was a mining area. So my granddad used to work in the mine. And what they used to do in the mine was they had these big sweet bread rolls that they would give the miners as part of their lunch or breakfast.
Kabinga: And granddad who reserved that one for me. And I remember eating those sweet bros when I was that little. I was like, oh, that was really [00:11:00] the fondest beautiful moments I had. I had this wonderful bond to my grandparents even when I grew up. That's so precious.
Nina: So at six years of age. You went back to live with your parents in Lusaka to go to nursery school. Tell me what your home was like, what your parents were doing, and what you observed of your new home life.
Kabinga: Going back to live with my parents at six felt like stepping into a new world, both exciting and confusing. Our home was different from many families around in the sense that both my mother and father were working at the time, whereas most of the people around their mom was at home and looking at my everyday life home wasn't always peaceful in the sense that behind closed doors at some point we had good time, bad time.
Kabinga: My mom and dad used to drink alcohol [00:12:00] and they had this couch back home. Then even now, it still exists though, where when you finish work, instead of going home straight, you're gonna pass through a pub and have some alcohol and stuff. So by the time they come home, they're drunk. So whatever arguments they had, they'll bring it home.
Kabinga: Then they'll start fighting. So there was physical violence, so I would witness that, which was quite scary and confusing and kind of felt invisible in a sense. Like there was no much consideration. I don't know what the fights were about though. And at the same time, we had amazing time, family time, extended family playing with cousins, aunties, uncles were there.
Kabinga: That was some good times and bad times, but the worst part was just seeing my parents fight.
Nina: Yeah, absolutely. When you talk about your parents were a little different to those [00:13:00] around you in that they both worked, did that mean that you lived in a fancier house on the street than anyone else? Or was it very much the same as your neighbors?
Kabinga: It was much the same, but different in the sense that we could afford meals. My mom could wear fancy clothes 'cause she was working, my dad was working as well. So we had plenty of food compared to our family. So there was that luxury of food and no lacking. They could afford to buy me a pair of shoes every time one worn out.
Kabinga: And I was always wearing the nice dresses compared to my friends around. So that was a big difference. I think.
Nina: You mentioned that you got to have some good times with your cousins and other family members. What would you do together? How did you share time?
Kabinga: Wow. It was really exciting growing up in that environment where we didn't have Barbie dolls or cubby houses and stuff, we would create our own.
Kabinga: [00:14:00] So we would make up our own using clay, which was mad. Mix it with water and then we mold it into making doors. So. Just a regular home set up. We'll have a kitchen, the bedroom, cooking intens and pretend mom and dad. And we also had different type of games. We play around playing the balls or doing high jumps or skipping double Dutch.
Kabinga: We Play-Doh that. So that was really exciting because it made me forget some of the stuff that is happening at home. You're lost into the world of a little girl, just having fun with cousins and friends.
Nina: Tell me about that first year of nursery school. What was the abuse that you endured that year and how did you notice your little 6-year-old self start to change as a result?
Kabinga: My first year of nursery school started like any other child, nervous, but curious [00:15:00] and excitement with extra plays. Like, oh, we get to do a lot of playing and stuff. I remember playing on the monkey bars, laughing with friends and when it was lunchtime, 'cause they used to prepare meals at the day centre, so we'd have lunches and everything.
Kabinga: By that time we were also leaving with extended families. Just like any other setup. When families get married, they would extended families to look after. So by that time we were leaving with my father's younger brother who was given the task to pick me up. 'cause Mom is at work, dad is working. So he was told to pick me up from school and one day, just like any other day, excitement, school finishes, you're going home.
Kabinga: But that day actually changed my whole life instead of looking after me. He did the unspeakable. He sexually abused me and I couldn't understand it. I didn't know why. I don't know how my parents [00:16:00] find out. But after they did, the only solution they thought was worth then was just to chase him out of our home.
Kabinga: And there was no time of like reporting it to the police or anything like that. It was kept as a family secret, probably due to expectations. What would they think or how would they perceive me? So it was protection for me and them so that people don't say anything against that. So it was kept within the family, so that's what happened.
Nina: And so you don't remember telling one of your parents?
Kabinga: No, my memory was quite blunt after that. It's like my memory was shut without remembering much how my parents find out.
Nina: And what about the support that they gave to you? What did your parents say to you to help you at that point in time?
Kabinga: Nothing that I remember [00:17:00] probably as most parent would think, like, oh, she's young, she's not gonna remember much, or she just have to move on.
Kabinga: So we just moved on. They never spoke about it, never asked me how I felt or what was going on. It was just totally different. And I remember from then on, I became a very quiet child, very introvert, because I think I was introduced to a world of shame from that age.
Nina: And so you as a child, internalized a sense of shame, like it had been somehow your fault.
Yes. Yeah.
Nina: And when you think about this, now, you are a mother. I imagine that you would respond in a really different way if it was one of your children now.
Kabinga: Yes, I would. I would respond differently because when I had my own child, especially having a first child daughter, I made it a point that I'm gonna protect her.
Kabinga: By all means, I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna make sure who's around. I can't [00:18:00] leave her to any babysitter or any cousins or any friend. That was a rule I made myself like, I'm not gonna do that to my child.
Nina: So thinking back on your primary school years, are there some memories that stand out to you about how you spent your time and how you felt about school?
Kabinga: Yes. My primary school years were filled with a blend of joy and struggle, just like any other school girl. The difficult part was I experienced a lot of bullying. I was always picked on, couldn't understand why, and that made me feel isolated and hurt. The good part is I also had some lovely friends and our time together brought me a lot of happiness and a lot of connection and a lot of safety.
Kabinga: We used to have shared lunches, like little picnics. So when our parents pack our lunches. We made a point where we all gonna put it together and share it. Those were the most [00:19:00] amazing moments. I still remember
Nina: what a beautiful thing for friends to do.
Nina: So at the age of nine, you had another experience. Can you talk me through this?
Kabinga: At the age of nine, there was another repeat of the same incident where I was sexually abused, but this time it was a neighbour who did that and I couldn't understand fully why me again, why am I being picked on? There's always this common threat that they both made not to tell anyone. If you do, you're gonna get into trouble.
Kabinga: So you shut down. Again, not to tell your parents, but eventually I believe mom found out I don't know how, and the step they took again, was just to never speak to the family again and ban me from going to their home. 'cause I had friends playing on the other side. So I couldn't, so that was another societal thing where never to talk about it.
Nina: And so that's how your neighbor got access to [00:20:00] you is you were friends with the children in the home.
Yes.
Nina: So you're nine years old this time when it occurs, and you were told you had to remain silent. How did your little self cope?
Wow.
Kabinga: It was a challenging moment because by then I had developed this coping mechanism where you just stay silent.
Kabinga: Now I was told that being silent, it's your strength. And it was one way of coping not to talk about it. Because when you are told not to say anything and your family are not fighting to have that voice heard, it's like it's a shameful thing, so don't talk about it.
Nina: And so did that mean you felt any less connected to your friends? Did you feel like you were different?
Kabinga: Yes, I felt I was different. And I started asking questions at that age, which no child should ask. Why me am I such a bad child? To experience that understandably. [00:21:00]
Nina: And so when we get to 11, you have another experience of loss. Can you tell me about that?
Kabinga: The loss I experienced when I was 11 was losing my dad.
Kabinga: Suddenly in a plane crash. I remember I was at school, 'cause dad had gone on a business trip for over a week. He was only supposed to go for three days, but he took a week and by that time he was working in the Air Force and he had retired. He stopped suddenly and says he wants to work on his business.
Kabinga: So he started going on business trips and this time he went to Zimbabwe to buy goods so he can come and sell them. And he had promised, of course he's gonna bring me something special and exciting. And I remember I was at school, my cousins came to pick me up, which was quite unusual. I was like, what are you doing?
Kabinga: Oh, we are just here to pick you up 'cause your daddy's home. He says, oh, he's home. So [00:22:00] yeah, he's home. He is brought you so much exciting gifts and everything. My cousins were told, don't tell her anything. Just pick her up. Just tell her a story of excitement so that I shouldn't fit it. Then at school, it was quite a distance, maybe 15 minute walk.
Kabinga: So we walked back with my cousins excited, dancing along the way and singing. They knew I had no idea. So when I reached near the house, I could hear people crying because that was tradition. So I could hear crying. I was like, why are they crying? I couldn't figure it out. And then when I was passing through, one of my neighbours, an elderly woman, just say, oh, poor kid.
Kabinga: So I couldn't understand like, what does she mean? So as I approached home, everyone was crying. I entered into the house, mom was crying. That's when she told me, when I reached mom, it's like your dad just died. And that was heartbreaking. [00:23:00] Wow.
Nina: What else do you remember of that day? You've walked into the home and your mom has told you your dad has died. What happens in the rest of that day?
Kabinga: Oh, wow. As traditionally, we always have neighbours. Family members are informed that we have a funeral, so they announce on radios because by then we had radios. So people in the copper belt, our relatives, and by that time, granddad had returned to the village after retirement.
Kabinga: So they heard on the radio, send telegrams to all family members. Everyone had to come and settle. So we have aunties, neighbours, they prepare meals. So the person who's mourning, they don't have to do anything. So you have external help coming to help, to mourn with you, to comfort you as a child. It didn't really sink in.
Kabinga: I just couldn't comprehend it and says like how, what happened to the plane? Why did he die like [00:24:00] that? And why didn't he say bye? So I had all these questions and did you ever get any answers to those questions? No. No.
Nina: I understand your world changed quite significantly at this point. Can you talk me through what happened immediately following the death of your father?
Kabinga: What happened immediately after my father's death was quite shocking. Of course. We're still all in a shock. Mom was confused. She doesn't know what to do. And what happens, especially in my country, what used to happen in the 1980s, there was what we called property grabbing where when the male head of the family dies, his family are entitled to everything.
Nina: Was this a legal practice or was this a cultural practice? Did the family have a choice in doing this or not?
Kabinga: It was cultural practice by then. [00:25:00] So there was no law and the family, the woman's side, they had no choice that was made and decided by the male's family. So culturally, often the widow and children are left with nothing.
Kabinga: It's the messy of them to decide, oh, we, we can do this, we can do that. So what happened to us is immediately after we buried dad, his family started requesting bank details, his finances. Anybody who owned money. So they wanted to get it back. They did that. Mom provided everything for that. He had to go with them to the bank to make sure that no single cent was left in the bank.
Kabinga: After we do the burial, there's a process of saying what happened, how he died and everything. So after they've explained that, now it's the family to say, yeah, we are entitled before we leave, we're gonna get everything. So they got everything [00:26:00] from furniture to beds to everything that was in the house.
Kabinga: They couldn't even leave me with a single mattress to lay on. They left me and mom just with her own clothes. That was it.
Nina: And that's even though your mom worked your whole life as well. So she was contributing to the finances of the home.
Kabinga: They were entitled to take everything they looked at. Mom never contributed, but mom was working.
Nina: And did you also lose your home?
No, because our home was under the council, so it was a rental property, so they left that. If it was paid, we could have lost it.
Nina: So you had a roof over your head, but literally nothing else in your home at that point?
Nothing.
Nina: So that left yourself and your mom grieving and then having to rebuild your lives?
Yes.
Kabinga: But what they did [00:27:00] as well was before they left, they decided that they did not want anything to do with me because they were being told, are you going to be in touch with a child? And then they said, A girl's child is a mother's child. We have nothing to do with it. So the rest of you, aunties on my dad's side, if you want anything to do with this child, stay in touch.
Kabinga: As for the rest of us, we are not interested. So that's how I've left. I've never seen them up to now.
Nina: It's a really devastating blow for both you and your mom, especially after everything that you'd already lost.
Kabinga: Yeah, it was quite confusing. And for mom, I know she was trying to put up a brave face, but she was really, really down within.
Nina: And so how did things go from that point on? How did your mom rebuild your life?
Kabinga: After we do the burial, they take everything and people start leaving now. So [00:28:00] now we are left with just a few family members. My grandparents were still there, so mom started going back to work. So she would go and come back, go and come back.
Kabinga: But in her way of coping, I found that she was very distant emotionally.
Nina: And was she able to do things like refurnish your home and. Make sure you had shoes for school and all of those basic things? Was she able to do that?
Kabinga: Yes. That part I really appreciate for her. We still had the roof. I still had meals, I still had shoes.
Kabinga: She looked after me because I remember her saying before dad left for that business trip, dad told her to promise her something and said, you have to look after my daughter until I come back. So I think she was still holding onto that knowing that she had made a [00:29:00] promise to make sure that I was Okay.
Nina: And in hindsight, that promise must feel particularly powerful. Yes. So in the couple of years after your father's passing, what followed next?
Kabinga: We normally have two funerals back home. So what happened is after dad died, the family took everything. Mom had the responsibility now because my mother's father lived in the village.
Kabinga: So culturally, mom and his extended family or his parents have that responsibility to take the funeral to the village.
Nina: So there's a second funeral. Yeah. About how long after the first funeral was the second one?
Kabinga: It depends because that's where the process of cleansing comes in. There's this process where, yes, you're a widow, but you need to be set free so that you can be free to get married.
Kabinga: So they cleanse you from the old marriage. [00:30:00]
Nina: And how does that happen?
It's the process where, yeah, once they take the funeral at the village, the family sit down. They have to explain again to the other family members who are not there at the funeral. This is what happened. And there's a traditional medicine which they use to sprinkle and say, now you are clean.
Kabinga: You don't have the ghost of the dead. So now you're free to go and marry. But unfortunately mom experienced a different side of it because my father's family had this idea that dad died because of mom. So they thought now she should be held accountable for their loss. So what they did now was instead of just speaking it out and working it out, what happened, they knew that mom and his family were coming to the village.
Kabinga: So my grandmother on my dad's side and his family organised a gang. Like when they come, [00:31:00] we have to beat them. So mom was assaulted badly with my grandparents, with his siblings. So that was a different scenario. And I remember reading that in mom's folder 'cause she was trying to write a book. He said that they were held in the room more like a prison, and the following day they were going to be put a traditional herb, so they flush it on your skin where it's very itchy.
Kabinga: So they had prepared that. So I don't know how my auntie came up with a plan during that night. I think he befriended a guard who was guarding them on the door that night. That's how the guard was able to leave the door open and that's how they started now leaving, escaping. It was like a little mini movie.
Kabinga: They started running while everyone was asleep in the village. And that's how mom left that place.
Nina: First she was beaten. Yes. Then put in [00:32:00] effectively a cell. Yes. And then informed that they would be further tortured the next day. Yes. With this horribly itchy herb. Yes. Wow, that's an awful lot.
Kabinga: It's a lot.
Yeah.
Kabinga: I know.
Nina: She went through a lot.
Yeah, she really did.
Nina: Your mom and your auntie escaped at that point? Did your mom go home to make a life with you?
Kabinga: Yeah, she came back and we started living, and I remember from that household where we used to live with dad, we had to move to another house. I think she wasn't comfortable anymore in that house.
Kabinga: So we started a new life, of course, with extra extended families and stuff. Of course, mom will be working, I'll be at school coming back and forth. But there are times when mom scoping, way again, was after work. She's not home. Alcohol, partying comes in with another different [00:33:00] relationship. Another week it's a different relationship.
Kabinga: So you get introduced now to different males coming in and wondering what is happening. And at that time I couldn't understand that that was how way of coping because she was trying to fill that void. She wanted also to feel loved, and she thought that was a way of her getting it.
Nina: So how did things play out for you and your mom in the couple of years that followed your father's death?
Kabinga: After losing my father and experiencing the violent rejection from his family, my mother and I carried out as though nothing happened. My mom was not the one who spoke about her emotions or what she was feeling, or asked me like, how are you feeling that dad is not here now? We're gonna be okay. We are just gonna be fine.
Kabinga: So those words are never heard from her mom. Coping, like I said, it was alcohol and having multiple relationships. It was like she shut [00:34:00] down emotionally and there was a sponge just soaking in her emotions. So how we played with that was we just pretended like nothing happened. So we just kept on leaving.
Kabinga: Each day, if mom is available, I'm there. We are doing this together or not. Life just moved on because there was no emotional connection. I started craving for validation and that openness to mom. So at that age, I now became a people pleaser, wanting to do everything right. I was vowed I'm gonna be the best good girl.
Kabinga: I don't know what definition of a good girl is. I would cook meals, I would clean the house so that when mom comes home, everything's done. I was that really good. But still, just the uncertainness I felt now started to get me. Now it's like I was this lonely child, you know? The friends and cousins I had playing with that stopped.
Kabinga: I wasn't enjoying that anymore. [00:35:00]
Nina: So I understand you went to live somewhere else next. Can you tell me a little about that?
Kabinga: I just finished year seven. And I remember not performing really good at year seven. After dad died, my performance went down. I wasn't really, really good at school, and that's when now the negative words attacks started coming in.
Kabinga: Oh, you are so do, you're so stupid. You are not good enough. So I started internalising that and that became quite challenging. So when I finished year seven, mom had suggested that since you haven't performed well, we have families in another city, another co belt area, which was Angola, which was my maternal grandfather's younger sister.
Kabinga: I don't know how you say it, but we say it. My grandmother still, so she had kids, I think she had about eight kids. So I was introduced to go and leave there. So I did my year eight and year nine in there. [00:36:00] It was good, but again, it was confusing and strange because you've never lived with them. So you're trying to adjust and cope and fit in.
Kabinga: How is there set up now? It's like the little lunches I used to have at school with mom. They are no longer there. There are no extra meals in between. Now. You have to wait if you are lucky, you have breakfast if you, there's lunch. Yes, there's dinner. Yes, you go to school a different way. You have to do chores before you go to school.
Kabinga: So that was a different set of, it's like, oh, now you have to grow up. And so I felt another emotional disconnection with mom during school holidays. I would go back to home. It'll be like a boarding school in a sense. So I finished my year nine, then I had to come back and live with my mom.
Nina: And what was that like when you came back at 15 to live with your mom to complete your high school years?[00:37:00]
Nina: What did that look like for you?
Kabinga: I don’t think I really enjoyed my teen years. And having now you're growing up, everything is sinking in. You are understanding things more now. The abuse I went through from the age of six and nine comes back. Now you understand what sexual abuse is. I was like, why me?
Kabinga: Where was my mom? Why was I not protected? Why was I not told? Where were you? So now I had this blame under the attack conversations with my mom. Now understanding even the loss of my dad, I'm seeing my other friends with their full family. My grandparents were Jehovah's Witnesses. So I was now told with my grandparents like, oh no, the only way you start going to the Kingdom Hall life is gonna be okay.
Kabinga: So for me, church became my rescue, my comfort, although even [00:38:00] then I couldn't speak about to anybody else what I was going through. I would just say it to God and say, God, why have you let me go through all this? Why? All I ask from you is just give me wisdom to make the right choices. Maybe someday things will get better.
Kabinga: That was my everyday prayer because I saw I had every opportunity as a teenager, whether you engage in boyfriends or having multiple relationships as well, because I could have gone the same route as mom did, but I wanted something better. So I finished high school and now again, depression started hitting me.
Kabinga: I couldn't understand it. Then that's when I became suicidal as well.
Nina: So as a teenager, those first ideas of suicidality came through? Yes.
Nina: When you think about the first time that you experienced ideas of suicide, what was it that was in your heart at that time?
Kabinga: Oh, well, I think, [00:39:00] 'cause that incident happened when I just finished high school.
Kabinga: And in my country, if you don't know anybody in higher places, it's hard to get employment. You can't. So I had no employment. I had no money, and I did not perform well to go to a university. Even if I did, there was no one who was going to support me to do that, which was quite a challenge. So now I'm seeing my friends who have connections, their parents are doing this, they're pushing them to do this, they're going to school.
Kabinga: I felt so left out and I started asking me again, it's like, why can't I get things right? Why can't I have a good family? There was a lot of why questions with no answers. So I woke up one day, then I said like, I don't wanna leave anymore. Today is the day I just have to quit it. My idea of suicide was for me to overdose and because I didn't have any [00:40:00] money.
Kabinga: I started asking everyone I knew if they had any tablets, and everyone I asked said, no, we don't have. So that was like faith came to my rescue, was like, now God, what do you want me? What is my life going to be like? Because I have no power to do this. You need to step in.
Nina: So in those few years after school, you did start making some steps towards a life. What did you do?
Kabinga: Yeah, my mom recommended for me to start dress making.
Nina: So you were tailoring?
Yes. I had to get a mini qualification, which mom could afford to pay because mom was already doing that. She used to do a lot of crocheting, a lot of beddings making, you know, kitchen stuff. So she was really gifted in that space.
Kabinga: So I started tailoring. So what rescued me was to make little dresses. In my [00:41:00] little community, I would ask the parents, oh, do you like a dress for your kid? Oh, I'm charging this much. So I would make them so simple and very cute, and the girls would look amazing and have fun. So that started giving me a sense of purpose and a sense of hope that I could make something out of it.
Kabinga: So that was my one thing.
Nina: And also, you mentioned that you were part of the Jehovah's Witness Church.
Kabinga: What were you doing with the church over the weekends and sometimes during the week because I wasn't doing much, is go in the ministry. So in the fields where we are going door to door preaching or we have appointments with this one, then we'll go and preach to them, tell them about the good news.
Kabinga: So that was my everyday life. So that also gave me a sense of hope.
Nina: Were you having nice interactions with people when you were knocking on their doors?
Kabinga: Yes, I was. I always had [00:42:00] this people person, so every time I would speak to them, they would feel that sort of comfort. I was like, oh, this is really good.
Kabinga: In the sense I was actually comforting myself. I was actually helping myself when I was doing that.
Nina: And because your belief was with the church as well, did you feel that you were helping the people that you met?
Yes, I did. There's a theme here that I'm hearing around building a sense of self-worth. Yeah.
Nina: It's about this time you meet your husband. Can you tell me how that happened and why you chose him?
Kabinga: Well, at this time, mom had stopped working and the idea was for us to put our house on rental and go and leave in another state, join his brother in Living Stone. My mom had listed a house for rental through an agent.
Kabinga: So an agent found this man who wanted to rent our house, [00:43:00] and this man was a cousin to my husband now. So he came first, oh, this is a house I want to rent. I'm interested in it. I'm happy to, to start living in it. The second time he came with my now husband and I wasn't home by then. I think he saw a picture in my house and he said, oh, I like that girl in the picture.
Kabinga: I think I'll come back the second time. So he came back the second time I was there. Then he couldn't speak. His cousin spoke on his behalf and says, oh yeah, you know, he's interested and maybe you can get together. I was like, maybe I was just start as a friendship, but not more than that I have to see. So I was more strict 'cause I knew what I wanted.
Kabinga: Then I was like, okay, we'll give it a go as friends and see how we go. So from there on, I liked him and why I chose him is. He was genuine. He liked me for who I was, and he was very [00:44:00] encouraging. And that's what I wanted, somebody who could listen and he did that. And that really stood up for me.
Nina: So it really built some trust between you to have a friendship first.
Yes.
Nina: So tell me about your wedding. What were you wearing, how were you feeling and what happened as part of your ceremony?
Kabinga: Oh, that was really exciting. My wedding, I wore a traditional dress because I wanted to have a simple, traditional wedding. And I always come back to this and say, 'cause mom wanted me to have this big white wedding, that was her dream.
Kabinga: And in my back of my mind, I never wanted that because I only wanted my dad to walk me down the aisle, not anybody else. So I said, no, it's like I just wanted simple, traditional wedding. And my husband Charles wanted that too. And so I wore a traditional dress, which my brother-in-law made. He used to make beautiful [00:45:00] dresses, so he made this traditional fabric called gue.
Kabinga: So I had one which was wrapped and one which was also wrapped as the veil. So he used that as a traditional veil. I had a mix of emotions and excitement, but at the same time scared because I didn't know what I was stepping into. So it was a moment of joy and unknown what was coming forward and the process.
Kabinga: Me and Charles, we were dating for two years seeing each other, and now he was committed to say, now I want to make a commitment. By that time, he left Botswana and got work in South Africa. So his process was like, okay, now I'm in South Africa. I have to get you as my wife. So he told his uncle and say, I'm ready to get married.
Kabinga: This is the woman I want. So they did the same process of putting money in the plate, coming to our house saying, our son is [00:46:00] interested in your daughter. So they did ask me, oh yes, I know this. And mom knew him. My uncle knew him, which was good and easy, and they paid the bright prices as well. And because it was a quick one, he didn't have enough leave days in South Africa.
Kabinga: So we came and made an express wedding, which was amazing. So we have this traditional process where I have to go through a training where I have to be told how to behave and how to treat my husband and how to live in the marriage. So mom hires this lady to teach me traditional stuff. This is how you behave, this is how you talk, this is how you do things.
Kabinga: It's a funny process, which I wasn't so keen about it. I was like, what's the whole point? But it was actually exciting just to go through it. After I finished that process, now there's a process of Charles coming from South Africa to Zambia to get me now to organise the whole [00:47:00] wedding. Now there's another process for them to take me to Charles' family.
Kabinga: There's a lot going on. Of course, I have to wear the traditional thing. They have to sing traditional songs. They have to beat drums as they are taking me. It's a funny, exciting for the women in the Communist. It's like, yeah, one is getting married, so we are taking, uh, and everything. Charles also organised a male to teach him as well what is expected in the marriage, how he should treat his wife, how he ought to behave, and everything like that.
Kabinga: And so it was in the night they finished the drumming and everything. Now they're taking me to his uncle's house where he was. So there's drumming, there's women singing. So before I reach Charles's place or enter the house, they groom's family. They need to have some change. They need to be splashing money if I'm to come in the house, because that's another way they do it.[00:48:00]
Kabinga: So they did that. They put money on the road so that now I'm allowed to come in. So I get in to Charles’. It's like now they give you hand in marriage. Then the following morning, that's another process. After spending a night with Charles, that's another morning where now the family members gather together on my side and Charles' family to tell us their experiences in marriage, how they've lived, what lessons we can learn from there.
Kabinga: They also, other cousins and extended families, they also tell us what is expected for us when they come and visit. You have to look after us. So it's all scenario of life experiences, but Charles and I made up a point to say, this is how we're gonna live our life. This is how we are gonna solve our problems.
Kabinga: This is how we are gonna handle our challenges. And after that process, the last part is now having a [00:49:00] celebration, like a mini white wording. Whether it is drinking and eating, there's comedians and everyone now is just having fun.
Nina: So there's something beautiful that you shared in there around the families coming together to share their stories with you, like their gifting, their stories, and what they've learned to help build your wisdom as you go forward.
Nina: But you and Charles then decided what it was gonna be for you.
Yes.
Nina: In the things that you were taught about how to be a wife. Is there anything you still use?
Kabinga: Yeah, of course. Respect, number one, how I communicate with Charles. Give respect. You give respect back. I think that was a major thing for me because I remember mom always spoke about the number one rule to human life is respect.
Kabinga: You give it, you get it back.
Nina: Now, where did you and Charles set up a home and how was that first year of marriage when you working it out together and when [00:50:00] did your first child arrive?
Kabinga: By then Charles was in South Africa, so I joined him in South Africa. So that's when we started building our own lives together, which was beautiful.
Kabinga: We made our own agreements on how we want to work things out. I had started going to a college. I started doing computer in business, so that could set me up for work in the future. Charles was able to sponsor me for that, which was amazing 'cause he went all the way to university. He was a civil engineer, so he gave me that.
Kabinga: And within our first year of marriage, we had our daughter. And it was a beautiful, and yet at the same time feeling of I don't know what to do as a mother. I'm still adjusting as being a wife. We are still getting to know each other, but comes this little human. My daughter arrived into this world. That was March, 2004.
Kabinga: Beautiful girl. And [00:51:00] I vowed that holding her in my arms. I promised her that I'll protect you. I'll love you. I will share my emotions with you. I'll be open. Because in that sense, I still had my traumas, which I was hiding still. My husband didn't even know what was happening in my life. What happened to me at six at nine.
Kabinga: That was a secret never to tell anyone. So I vowed to keep my traumas not to get in the way in parenting my child.
Nina: And how did you go being a new mom?
Ah, it was full of experiments. Lucky 'cause we invited Charles’ mom and my mom so they can come and witness nurse the birth of their first grandchild just to offer support.
Kabinga: And I needed it because I had no clue what I was doing. And at the same time, I didn't realize that actually my mom was sick because when I was speaking to her over the [00:52:00] phone all this time, she never hinted that she was sick. But actually that's when I realized she wasn't well for me, that was the moments I, I always cherished that my mom was there for me giving birth, which was very special.
Kabinga: And at the same time, it was quite sad to see that she was sick because she had tuberculosis, which I don't know if she was aware. So when we saw that, we made sure take her to the doctors. She checked in. What they used to do in South Africa was for people who were really sick with tuberculosis. They'll have to be hospitalised in a different institution so that they're taking medication regularly and the rest of the family or the child is not infected and everything like that.
Kabinga: So it was a good process. I was still visiting mom coming back, but the good thing she was nearby, I still had my mother-in-law to help me with my little one, which was really amazing.
Nina: So your mom got to meet your little daughter, her [00:53:00] first grandchild? Yes.
Nina: And was she particularly proud of being a grandparent?
Kabinga: Oh yes, she was. My mom was very creative in knitting, so she made all these beautiful hats, the sweaters, boots, the mins. So mom did all that and she was actually knitting in advance some of the things like, when my granddaughter is at this age, make sure you give her this. So I kept all those little things, which was really, really special.
Nina: So when you are 25, you and Charles decided to move to Scotland? Tell me about leaving Zambia and then establishing yourselves in Scotland.
Kabinga: That was really exciting but scary again at the same time. 'cause now I'm further south. Africa was just like a 24 hour bus ride. You know, mom can be here, I can be back home if anything happens now, Scotland is far away.
Kabinga: So that was quite scary. So what happened is [00:54:00] Charles got another offer to work in Scotland. So he got his visa first and we decided to go back home in Zambia so I can get my visa and my daughter while Charles had left for Scotland. So I went back home. I lived with my mom and Charles's family as well at the same time.
Kabinga: The good moments were I spend more time with my mom, with her grandchild, happily. I got the visas and now I was like, I'm going, I'm gonna leave mom. I did not want to leave Mom. There was this gut feeling inside me saying, I need to stay with her, but at the same time, I'm excited I'm going to join my husband.
Kabinga: That's another new adventure. Who knew the girl who was this now flying to Scotland? So that was exciting. I remember getting the visas. That was November. Now we are getting ready to go saying a goodbyes. Mommy and auntie takes me to the [00:55:00] airport with my daughter. I remember hugging mom and saying bye to her.
Kabinga: I had this strong deep gut within me telling me, that's your last goodbye. So I arrived Scotland and 2005, March seven, mom passed away. Yeah. So that was huge.
Nina: So you've just arrived in Scotland. You've only been there a few months, and now you've lost your mom, which is an enormous grief. How did you get on dealing with that?
Kabinga: I think the thing in me, like I've always lived from a younger child, was to pretend and just move on, but yet I'm carrying that deep grief within me. We had to fly back to Zambia to bury Mom, came back and pretended everything was okay. I returned back to work. I was working by then in one of the supermarket Sainsburys, and that was life.
Kabinga: I never [00:56:00] expressed my emotions to my husband, never talked about it, what was bothering me. I carried on the same habits and patterns I always had of not to share, just keep quiet, and yet inside I'm keeping a mountain of emotions ready to explode like a volcano.
Nina: I was starting to hear the volcano as you spoke. It was exactly the metaphor that was in my head. As you were talking. This is building pressure here. Yes.
Nina: Alright, so at 28, you came to Australia, first to Mackay, and then to Darwin. You have two little children now. How did your life start to change?
It was a big adjustment. Now, coming to Scotland where transportation was nearby, I had a job.
Kabinga: I had two young kids who were just settling in. The other one is in kindergarten, ready to start school. My husband now [00:57:00] gets a job in Australia and say, oh, we are gonna move after five years. I've just found a job in Australia. I was like, you are kidding me. I did not want to come to Australia. It felt more like an isolated island.
Nina: Yes. And you didn't come to a big city when you first started. You came to Mackay and then to Darwin
Kabinga: From Scotland to Mackay. It's ruler. I don't know anybody. I don't know the process of enrolling kids. I had to learn everything. Lucky Charles’ work colleagues. There was a lady who was helping us to find accommodation, so that became easier.
Kabinga: But the first thing I had to do was learn how to drive.
Nina: Oh, great. Yes. So you had to get your license?
Kabinga: I had to get my license.
Nina: And did you want to, were you excited about that?
Kabinga: I was excited and still scary at the same time, because I [00:58:00] remember walking a 15 minute walk to take my daughter. By then, she had just started year one, so it was quite a distance.
Kabinga: And it was through the highway. We were in Blacks Beach, Mackay. So I was like, I am tired working with the kids with this heat, and it was hot. So I started my learning lessons by a lady from Fiji was teaching me, and I loved it. The way she taught me, she was really amazing. I was like, okay, now you're ready to get your license.
Kabinga: I promised my daughter that day that I'm coming to pick you up with a car. I'm gonna pass the driving test. And I did. What was exciting then when I handed over my learners at the counter, the lady, she thought I just passed my license. So she gave me a past license. I was like, I'm about to go for my driver's license.
Kabinga: You've already given me this. I know you're gonna pass. So that was amazing. And I passed. I went to pick up my daughter to school. That was exciting.
So you had [00:59:00] another little flagship piece of independence in your hand. Yes. That was beautiful. Yes.
Nina: You get your license, you've got that next piece of independence. What do you do then?
Kabinga: That independence now was like, I need to get to work, but at the same time, I'm a mom. My other son was like two, so I needed something flexible. I wanted to do the same work I was doing in Scotland, working in supermarket, so that during the day I'm home with the kids, but I didn't have luck in that.
Kabinga: So I did Avon makeup selling. I tried Tupperware. I basically did everything that I felt comfortable with. So that was extra income. That gave me a sort of empowerment that I'm earning something. Even if I didn't need it, Charles could afford it, but I needed something of my own.
Nina: So you're now 45, and in the last 15 years, you've been on quite an incredible journey to face into your trauma of your early years.[01:00:00]
And as part of that, you've shared your story with the world. You've attributed the shame to where it rightfully belongs. And you've literally gone about reclaiming your life. So with all the things you've learned on your healing journey, what do you draw on now to support you?
Kabinga: On the hard days, I think the first thing I learned was self-acceptance.
Kabinga: For me, that was huge because I did not like who I was despite putting on a facade and forgiveness, I needed to let go. A lot of things, and what keeps me going is self-compassion. I remind myself it's okay to feel the emotions I'm feeling, and that healing isn't linear. It comes in stages. So the more you grow up, I'm now 45.
Kabinga: I know better. At 40, it's like I've found my extent of freedom in and out. [01:01:00] Speaking my truth, I no longer carry the shame because it has no power over me anymore. I have the power to choose how I live forward and the support system. I've got boundaries. I've got a good support system. My husband Charles, whom I love dearly, he's been amazing on this journey.
Kabinga: He's the one I tend to.
Nina: And so you two have been together 20
years.
Kabinga: Yeah.
Nina: Also, since you came to Australia, you've watched your children grow up as well. How has that journey been for you?
Kabinga: Oh, it's been amazing. One thing I give myself credit is I'm such a good mom, knowing how I've raised my kids, respectful, hardworking, open communication.
Kabinga: We have open conversation. My daughter is a chatter box. She's 21 this year. She's working. She's got a mini business side hustle. I'm so proud of what I've instilled in them. Me and Charles, they've made parenting look easier. [01:02:00]
Nina: What's happening in your world now when you feel a sense of joy?
I feel a sense of joy when I'm with my family spending time together when I'm with good friends who've been supportive and I'm at peace within myself.
Kabinga: That's the most important thing I think I've overcome fear and all I have is love.
Nina: Thank you so much Kabinga for being my guest today and sharing insights into your world as a young person. Your journey continues through your healing and self-discovery in your thirties, and you've captured this beautifully in your book.
Nina: So can you remind our listeners what your book is called, what it's about, and where to find it?
Kabinga: My book is called Confront Reclaim Your Life. I wrote the book because I wanted it to be a guide to somebody else who's going through [01:03:00] similar circumstances, but has not yet gotten the voice or gotten the courage to speak to anybody else.
Kabinga: So I just wanted that book to be available, to tell them that you're not all by yourself, going through what you're going through. Here's a book that can hold your hand when you're feeling down, when you're feeling low, and at the same time offer you that healing process and starting to learn to let go.
Kabinga: They can find my book worldwide. It's on Amazon, it's on Booktopia, it's on now everywhere. I think. The moment you say Kabinga Mazaba the book comes up.
Nina: Excellent. And I know you share your story and journey of your healing on many stages, both here and overseas. So how can people find you or follow you if they'd like to come to one of your future speaking events?
Kabinga: They can follow me on Instagram. I'm on Facebook. My daughter just introduced me to TikTok where I'm starting to talk about Little Conversations. It's going well so [01:04:00] far, and they can go on my website, www.kabingacmazaba.com
Nina: It's been wonderful to have this conversation today. Thank you for your openness and your vulnerability because it takes a lot to share these kinds of stories, and may you have every happiness and success into the future.
Today's conversation included some content that may have been hard to hear. If this has brought up difficult feelings for you, please reach out to Beyond Blue on 1300 22 46 36 or Lifeline on 13 11 14 to talk with their qualified counsellors. You have been listening to When I was Young, an exploration of the formative years of authentic, outstanding, and inspiring humans.
I'm your host, Nina Fromhold, and this is a Memory Lane Life Stories production [01:05:00] proudly made in Narrm, Melbourne, Victoria, on the traditional lands of the Wurundjeri people. We have new episodes and guests each month. If you have enjoyed this episode, please follow the show to hear more of the series and share the podcast with your friends.
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