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Deep conversations with underrated lawyers.
It's quorum. It's quorum's quorum. My guest today is Laura Kurzlage. Laura taught me a whole new dimension to the practice of law, and that's about trust. She is one of the most high trust lawyers I've met, and it shows in her career success.
Khurram Naik:After clerking in the Central District Of California and the Ninth Circuit, Laura litigated Sussman Godfrey before joining Goodwin as an associate, and she is the first associate on the podcast since because Laura is a rising star. Here's Laura. Okay, Laura. I am very excited to have you on here. And you have one of the most unique stories of anyone I know in law.
Khurram Naik:And one of the parts of your stories that I I still think about, because it's it's such a vivid picture that paints in my mind, and it says a lot about your trajectory, was the day you went into your dad for his last day of work. Can you share something about that story?
Lora Krsulich:Of course. And I'll just say, Horm, I'm very thankful to be on the podcast and to you for taking the time to get to know me and to to ask questions in the way that you do with so much insight and care. So my dad, he worked as a lithographer when he first arrived in San Francisco. He had a community of people who were also working in that same lithography company and who placed him there. He was a printer, and he worked there for forty four years before he retired when my sister and I were in high school.
Lora Krsulich:So he had us come to work his last day to just kinda see where he'd been working. We didn't go there regularly at all. It was this printing plant. And I walked in, and the thing that stood out to me was just so he'd worked on the same printer for, you know, his majority of his career. And on that printer were little pieces of masking tape that he put everywhere.
Lora Krsulich:So that this printer was just, like, covered in masking tape, and every piece of tape had his initials on it, like r k and then the date. And when my sister and I asked him what that was, he said, well, that's just reflecting, you know, all of the repairs I've made to this printer over the course of, you know, my time here. And I don't think we talked much about it, but that image really stood out to me, like like, this very it was so visible to me how much of his work had just belonged on this one machine and how much he cared so much about it. And, you know, the other thing about my dad is, like, he didn't have to do that. Like, he didn't have to put that masking tape on there, but he took pride in showing what he had done and recording it.
Lora Krsulich:And that was really important to me. And I'm so glad to be able to give that, you know, to recall that memory. It's an important one to me and something that I take forward in my own career.
Khurram Naik:How did it you know, when you saw that, how did it make you think about how far you had come?
Lora Krsulich:Oh, well, know, I always think about this when I when I when I talked back to talk to my parents about what I'm doing. I'm so proud of what I've been able to accomplish in my legal career. And and and I also think about, like, some of these similarities, right, that and why why I've been successful and what they've instilled in me. Like, this idea that you need to take pride in your work and you need to take ownership of it is something that's very important to me now. And so, like, I've come a long way in that, you know, I'm a lawyer.
Lora Krsulich:I have a professional degree. I have opportunities that they never, you know, had for themselves. But it's also just this, like, common value system that I'm carrying forward.
Khurram Naik:And so what was the point at which you you said to me that I had this whole other career before law school? So can you can you share the story of that other career then how that led you to law school?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. So I I was always ever since I was in high school, I was very interested in student government and the way that people would organize themselves to try to come up with solutions to problems. I'd always thought, well, you know, whatever whatever had been existing could be improved upon. Right? So at at that very early age, it was like, we used to have student dances.
Lora Krsulich:Okay. How can you make these student dances more enjoyable for people? Right? And, like and I carried that through in my interest in that type of activity through to college where I majored in political science. And then afterward, I had an opportunity to go work in Newark, in New Jersey, working on prisoner reentry for the office of prisoner reentry in Newark, New Jersey.
Lora Krsulich:And that was super motivating to me because the problem as as it was presented to me at that time was there are many different people in Newark and organizations in Newark that are working on prisoner reentry, but they are not coordinated in any way by by the city hall in Newark. And they also do not have federal money flowing into those programs. So, you know, these mom and pop shops, these storefront churches, they're trying to do the best they can with the resources that they have, but there's no central coordinating system. And so that was my opportunity coming in as a graduate student was to try to start to coordinate that system with, with, the other people in city hall who are working on economic and housing development. And, you know, taking that idea of, like, there's always something to improve upon.
Lora Krsulich:Like, what can you bring to that system? You know, I ended up thinking or I ended up finding out my strength was in grant writing and, like, working with the community to, like, propose these innovative programs and get them funded. And so we ended up winning more than $7,000,000 in federal and private grants while I was there. And then I had a mentor at at Newark suggest to me that I could take this I could take my mentality, my drive, and apply it to law school, and that I could be a successful lawyer. Something that I really had not thought about before before that was put in my mind.
Lora Krsulich:And and I'm sure we'll get into it more, but I I, you know, I took that to heart and didn't think it didn't think I would be successful, but I promised her I would apply. And that's what I did.
Khurram Naik:At what point did you start thinking yourself, like, okay. Let's say you you got into Berkeley. What point did you start thinking yourself, hey. Like, I'm getting some feedback here that I might be on to something? Was it at that point?
Khurram Naik:Was it later on? Like, what what were your reactions to entering law school?
Lora Krsulich:So my initial reaction to entering law school was just, like, fear. Truly fear. Like, if I'm gonna be honest with you, I was, you know, accepting a huge amount of debt going into law school and willing to add that onto my plate. But, you know, knowing that I would have to repay that, and and in order to do that, I needed to be successful, right, in law school and in the career beyond. And so that's how I started out with law school.
Lora Krsulich:And I think a lot of that first year was driven by that fear. And and then I it started to click for me in my second year when, you know, I had the first year's grades behind me, and I'd started to build a community of people. I rode on to the law review, and I started to feel more comfortable. Like, I had a community who was also interested in the law, who were serious about, you know, doing doing this work. And it just felt like, okay.
Lora Krsulich:There are people in here who who are like me who believe believe in me and what I can do, and it started to feel a little more comfortable at that point in time.
Khurram Naik:Were there other first gen lawyers or first gen students among your peers?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. We had a Berkeley Law had a group called First Generation Professionals. It had started the year before I joined at Berkeley, and then I ended up I was a cochair of that group at at law school. And so, yes, in that group, there were there were other first generation lawyers who we'd meet kinda monthly to do different programming. I remember one of the things that we did was we hosted, like, a wine night because and this may be of interest in recruiting.
Lora Krsulich:I I remember going through OCI, and I was invited to a dinner. And at the dinner, the the partners who were there had me me to select a bottle of wine for the table. And I had never done that before. I I had I mean, we were in this fancy restaurant. The wine list was extensive, and I really had no clue at all.
Lora Krsulich:And so we we develop after that experience, we developed this programming at the First Generation Lawyers Group of just, like, a fun event, like, how to do a wine tasting and how to recommend wine and what to look for in wine and, you know, what to talk about when you're talking about wine. And, so we had, you know, we had our community of people that were, doing things tailored to first gen lawyers. Yeah.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. What was your experience? I saw your summer at Boise. What was that experience like for you?
Lora Krsulich:It was awesome. I loved that experience at Boise. The highlight of that summer was as a summer associate getting to work on a trial team. It was the it was the first it was one of the first cases tried in California about what would happen to frozen embryos when a couple was going through a divorce. And the firm had taken on that matter pro bono and, you know, was open to support from, you know, anywhere in the firm, including summer associates.
Lora Krsulich:And it was just so awesome to, like, to be on a trial team at that early stage, like, to sit in on witness prep, like, help with witness direct outlines, and the type and also witness direct outlines, meeting with the client, but also just, like, the type of legal research that you were able to do with constitutional issues around reproductive rights. And and that was just that was a amazing summer. I I loved it very much. So, yeah, good experience.
Khurram Naik:But you didn't end up going to a firm law right after law school because you end up clerking. So how did that come to be?
Lora Krsulich:So with clerking so I had done well in law school, and I know this the school, the Berkeley, like, strongly promoted students to go into judicial clerkships because of the benefit it could have in the long run for your career. And so that was an opportunity available to me. I don't think I knew at the time just how meaningful of an experience it would be when I applied. I just knew, like, this is something that that, you know, if you have the grades, you should do. Right?
Lora Krsulich:Like, you should do this. And so I ended up accepting clerkships at Central District of California with judge Gutierrez and then at the ninth circuit with judge Wardlaw. And I wanna I wanna pause too because I think it's helpful for maybe law students going through this process. Because now that I I have these two clerkships right, it's in my background, but it certainly was not inevitable when I was in law school that I would be able to clerk. I think at that time, you know, you would apply and you weren't sure at all, you know, what judges were looking for what judges were looking for in a resume or why they've selected certain students to come in and interview and not.
Lora Krsulich:And I remember I I wanted that gold star so badly. Right? I really wanted it. And so I remember applying to, like, every judge on the Western Seaboard. And I I put out these application I printed out the applications, and I had them all over my parents' kitchen.
Lora Krsulich:They were, like, you know, on the on the counters, on the dining table, and on the others you know, they were just everywhere. My mom and I were just assembling them and putting them in packets, and we sent them off. And I just I just remember thinking like, I don't know what this process is. Like, I am really hopeful that something positive comes out of this, and I really want this. But, you know, it's it felt like a crapshoot, right, at the time I was going through it.
Khurram Naik:And I I should also take this opportunity to to call out that you for the entire time in law school, you lived with your parents?
Lora Krsulich:Yes. So I lived with them the first two years of law school, and then I ended up getting a studio apartment at Berkeley and but still spending most of my time with my parents because, like, let's be honest, like, my mom was a way better cook than I ever could be, and it was just the comfort of having them there was, you know, very important for me during law school.
Khurram Naik:But that's also pretty unusual. I mean, like, it's all the more unusual because you had pract you had worked before. It's like you were, like like, a grown adult who had, like, a job in another country, but you know? Because I imagine any number of students, even ones who had local roots, weren't living at home in law school. So I think that is a pretty remarkable sacrifice you took because, like, my understanding is that was to to manage the cost, right, of of yeah.
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. That's right.
Khurram Naik:To to get your mom's cooking, it sounds like. But
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. No. Exactly. Like, it was going into I I mentioned the cost of going into law school and the pressure I felt from that. But, you know, when I applied, I I still had loans from my graduate degree.
Lora Krsulich:So I have a graduate degree, a master's in public administration that I got while I was working in Newark. And so I had those loans going into Berkeley Law education and knew that I would add law loans on top of that. And so, you know, I I understood those risks and, like, really wanted to minimize the costs while I was going through law school. So so yeah. So that's a choice I made.
Lora Krsulich:Right? And we grew up in San Bruno. I grew up in San Bruno. So it's about an hour commute to Berkeley on the BART. And that's what I did and sort of just integrated it into my schedule and made it work for me.
Lora Krsulich:Like, I would read on the BART. I would get there really early at school and kind of, you know, let the day kind of flow and, you know, get my coffee and do my reading then. And I don't know. I very much enjoyed it even though, you know, I knew it wasn't as convenient as some other students where you could just live right next to campus or something like that.
Khurram Naik:And then going back to you mentioned the clerkship. So you clerked for Central District of California, and then you immediately after that clerked for the Ninth Circuit. Tell me about the impact of those two experiences.
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. So for me, it was so important to get to know those judges personally, judge Gutierrez and judge Wardlaw. And by doing that, it improved my com it's drastically improved my comfort level with being a litigator. Right? Because I'm I ended up coming to know those judges' families, like, who they are, you know, what their belief system is, and what they see what that they wanna see from young lawyers developing in their careers.
Lora Krsulich:And for me, it demystified the whole process of practicing law. Right? Because now when I'm going into court, I recognize that, yes, those judges have a job, and they take that very seriously. But they're all people at the end of the day. Right?
Lora Krsulich:Everybody that's on the bench is a is a is a person who has life and a family and who wants to see lawyers develop in their career. And and having that recognition forefront when I'm thinking about litigating has made it has made the whole process less intimidating and more enjoyable for me because I, you know, I I see the the those judges as people, not as some sort of, like, adversaries or adversaries or, like
Khurram Naik:Someone on a pedestal.
Lora Krsulich:Someone on a pedestal. Exactly.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. I think, you know, being behind the scenes in chambers does help me. I was very fortunate to have two externships with two fantastic federal judges. I didn't clerk, but that already was I'm very grateful for those experiences, and they did much, like you're saying, to demystify and give me a lot of confidence. Were there any practice points or, you know, for someone who went straight to practice at, you know, a a peer firm to the firms you practice at, what is the benefit or perspective that you have that that somebody else wouldn't have?
Khurram Naik:Like, anything practical in that way or or actual?
Lora Krsulich:Well, no. Well, your so your externship is actually so I had an externship with judge Breyer in in Northern District Of California, and it evoked that memory for me of judge Breyer used to have these, like, bagel mornings on Fridays where he'd get all the judges together on that same floor, and he'd bring in his externs, and everybody would just mingle around. And so it's just, like, it's just highlighting, like, how important any sort of experience in chambers is, like, particularly if if your judge is open to involving everyone in in chambers. But in terms of, like, practical experience that would be translatable, for the district court in particular, there was just such a limited amount of time to do the work that we had in front of us. So judge Gutierrez would have this whiteboard in chambers where he would list out all of the motions that needed to be decided that week.
Lora Krsulich:And he was it was very important to him to decide to issue orders in a timely manner and to be efficient about it. And because his he understood his role on the district court as these parties need a decision from me. And so I needed to give you that decision. I I don't want them to wait. And so, you know, the motions on the board, you know, there'd be 10 motions that needed to be decided at the time I was clerking.
Lora Krsulich:And there were two of us clerks, which meant, you know, we'd each have about five motions each. And so if you're thinking as a litigator, right, like, how do I want if if I need to communicate I need to communicate the law and the facts that are in my favor in the most efficient way process possible? How am I going to do that for law clerks that have and judges who have very a very short amount of time to decide my case? And I think that influences, right, the way you write, the way you use graphics, right, and the way you simplify your language. Because, you know, if someone opens up your brief and it's just, like, very dense and has a lot of jargon and and they know you know, they have, like, four hours, right, to dig in.
Lora Krsulich:You know, you just wanna make it as simple as possible for them to come to the right decision for your client. And I think anyone can can kinda take that advice and and become a better litigator with it.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. That's good. Good to make a a simple clear story for why you should prevail. I think, relatedly, the big insight I from from the then chief judge James Holerman of the Northern District Of Illinois that I externed for, something that he impressed upon us again and again was always using every option he can to advocate. So he he he would point out or he would he would point out lawyers that would do this skillfully where even on a simple status call, they would just use every opportunity to subtly there's an art to this.
Khurram Naik:There's maybe something procedural, non or you want maybe you wanna say non substantive about the conversation. Always finding some subtle way to advocate for your client's position to always be advocating. So I think that's that's definitely made a lasting impact on my perspective. Because these judges, they just see so many advocates, and they they see what's effective, and then specifically what's effective with a judge. And so they just they're the best source on, hey.
Khurram Naik:Here's what's persuasive or or clarifying ways to communicate. So
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, along those lines, I've been thinking about this more like, what is in your control as a litigator? And how can you tilt that into your favor in in the best way possible? Right?
Lora Krsulich:So he talked about it as advocating at every opportunity you get. But, I mean, I think about it as like, okay. Can I can I get there? Like, just thinking practically, what's in what's what's available to me? Can I get to court early, right, and acquaint myself with the location where I'm gonna be seated and the microphones and the technology and, you know, and just get myself situated in a space so I feel comfortable with it?
Lora Krsulich:Like, I mean, that's it. It's something well within my control. It's not anything to do substantively, but I think it's gonna make me a better advocate. Right? Because I know that I'll be prepared when the judge comes out, and I'll be able to read the room better.
Lora Krsulich:Right? So, yeah, I think there are so many different ways that, you know, you don't think about in law school, right, but that you can be a better advocate for your clients.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. I I asked her for judge John Dara, and he was a big sucker for being on time. He was always on time, and he would let counsel if counsel was late, he would let them know, hey. Like, this you're having an impact on a whole bunch of people by doing that. I've tried to heed his his I've not been the most punctual person in my life professionally.
Khurram Naik:So the I've I've don't think I've I've lived up to his expectations in that way. But another thing he would do that was really interesting is he would I'm trying to remember the context he would say this to counsel. It would be early in it'd be, like, I think for the first status hearing. And so he would say just, oh, so casually, you know, thumbing through the papers. He'd say, you know, counsel, are you this, I think, primarily be to plaintiffs.
Khurram Naik:He's like, are you you know, have you familiar yourself with with Federal Rules of Procedure Rule 11? And so that would just, like everyone in the room would be like, oh my god. What? What did you throw down? And he wasn't implying that there was something deficient in the pleadings in that way, but inviting people to consider carefully how they were framing their arguments.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. Let's see if if there was a a substantial basis for their positions. I think that's something I've been struck with. There's judges like judge Deragh. There's also blank in his name.
Khurram Naik:Oh, judge judge Shader of the Northern District Of Illinois too, who's like judge Shader, he's also passed away. Judge Shader was a real character, and so he would he would really push back on, like, particularly things like affirmative defenses or objections in our you know, in discovery. You know you know, like, let's say, like, standard objection is, you know, we we you know, we don't have sufficient information or belief to, you know, whatever, you know, whatever that would be. And he would really challenge people. I think you don't have a basis for just the most basic assertions.
Khurram Naik:Like, you don't have a basis for saying, like, you know, you're in Chicago right now. Right? So he would just say, like, that is an absurd position to take. Like, this the loyalty world is not different than the real world. In the real world, we think that's a ridiculous position, so don't say things like that.
Khurram Naik:Yep. I think that's something I've really admired in judges is that they teach you how to become more of a first principles thinker and really think, okay. Like, I know the rules. I know there's conventions that people use when they talk with the rules. The rules are this certain way, and we can go back to these original rules and and and these sources for our decisions about how to litigate.
Khurram Naik:So, yeah, a lot we can learn from judges if we're paying attention to in that way.
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. Well, I've been thinking about this particular issue with discovery in the context of AI and the development of AI. And thinking through, like, if if if AI could spit out your discovery's responses, like, you probably have a problem. Right? Like, if, you know, like, on information and believe whatever it is, you know, the boilerplate language.
Lora Krsulich:If if you're not adding any value as a lawyer, like, why are you doing the discovery responses at all? Right? Like, you have to think through what information you have, what information, you know, you can get from your client, and and how you're going to present that information, like, that's relevant to the case and advance your clients your client's goals. Right? You can't just say, I have nothing of value because that's going to end up biting you when you get into the litigation.
Lora Krsulich:Right? And you need to present an affirmative case for your client. Right? You need to be able to think you need to think strategically about discovery. So, yeah, I I I that's that's something about litigating that's always stood out to me.
Lora Krsulich:It's just like the overuse of boilerplates. Like, why do we do this? Like, there's a way to think through this. It's you know, think through it like an advocate, like you would write a brief. Right?
Lora Krsulich:That's discovery. You can do discovery in the same way.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. Mhmm. How did you come so you're the the firm you chose after your clerkship with Sussman Godfrey, how did you come to choose Sussman?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. So I first heard about Sussman through Nick Spear, who clerked for judge Gutierrez before me. We overlapped for one week. And Nick, if if anyone knows him, is wonderful at staying in touch with people and is a deeply caring person. And so he stayed in touch with me through my clerkships and talked to me about Sussman and how you got these early opportunities as a litigator to be in court, to stand up, to depose, you know, to start doing depositions, like, very early on in your career.
Lora Krsulich:And that was all extremely exciting to me. Like, that's how I wanted to litigate. You know, I'd had this career before law school, and so it was important to me to not feel like to or sorry. Instead of putting it in a negative, I'll put it in a positive. It was important to me to feel like my experiences and the amount of time and vigor I'd spent in law school was going to be valued at the firm.
Lora Krsulich:Right? I was gonna be trusted to do things, to do, you know, real work. And so that's what that's what Nick was saying about Sussman, and that was absolutely my experience there. I you know, my first month of of litigating, I I was taking a expert witness deposition at Cravath, and and, you know, was an antitrust expert. I'd with with the partner, I'd read through his report and identify areas that we wanted to, you know, direct our questions to and and ask, but I did.
Lora Krsulich:It was like, I think I started in I started on November 4, and I was taking that deposition in December. So it was that's that's what attracted me to that firm and why I chose them right after clerking.
Khurram Naik:And, you know, so I I I think a running theme that you had been underscoring was some of the challenges you felt in in heading into new experiences that you didn't have any context for, any guidance on how to navigate, so that was true for you entering law school. You had a lot of trepidation because, hey. I mean, like, you'd worked in the real world, so you knew what, like, $200,000 in student loans, like, when you're 22 or whatever or 21 even if maybe you're making the decision at that point to to to go to law school straight out of college, you've only been in college. You don't really have any sense of, yeah. Sure.
Khurram Naik:Throw that debt on too. Forgot this other debt. Throw that debt on too. Like, it doesn't it's just numbers. Right?
Khurram Naik:It doesn't really mean anything. But you had a very real sense of, like, okay. Like, here's what it takes to, like, earn these dollars and hand them off Mhmm. You know, for a loan. So so some understandable trepidation, but you had trepidation there.
Khurram Naik:And then you described, you know, going to your clerkship. She's like, hey. Like, I don't really know what I'm doing here, like, the significance of this is. What was the experience like heading into Sussman? Like, were you feeling confident?
Khurram Naik:Were you feeling anxious? Like, tell me about or maybe make sure that you like, tell me about, like, what your what your headspace was heading into that yeah.
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. So I was very energized. I think that was my headspace going into Sussman. One I you know, after learning about the firm through Nick and then also Crissa Pacman, who was a former Gutierrez clerk as well, You know, I met the people, and I was excited to work with that group of people. But I also learned more about Steve Sussman and his philosophy to litigating.
Lora Krsulich:And what stood out for me was his idea that you need to demystify the practice of law. And and and the way that you do that is by giving lawyers experiences early on. So and so there's by demystifying, I think what he meant is there's nothing magical about taking a deposition. Right? Like, you you need to prepare.
Lora Krsulich:You need to understand the documents. You need to write out concise questions. You need to talk to your team about what you wanna get from the witness. But if you're willing to put in the work and and the time to do that deposition, you can be just as successful as someone who has taken, you know, dozens of depositions. You know, same thing for oral argument.
Lora Krsulich:Like, sure, you do need to build up your judgment and comfort over time. But, like but starting out, you know, if if you understand the law and you've practiced and you've gone through and done, you know, moots and talked to your colleagues about it, like, you can be successful at oral argument, right, starting out. And I don't know. That whole idea was very energizing to me. I think someone particularly someone who did not have lawyers in their family, right, that the practice of law could be something that you can do and that people will trust in you to do it early on.
Lora Krsulich:Like, you know, that's where I wanted to be. Right? I wanted to be around people like that. So, yeah, I think I was energized.
Khurram Naik:How else have you used that idea of, hey. How to demystify a seems like that's a big picture concept for you. Are there other spheres in your life where you've applied this this concept of, hey. I can just I can just start working towards this or start making this change now?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. So I I think it's just like for me, it's always a battle with time. Because I think demystifying goes goes with time. Like, I I firmly believe that anything anything that you wanna understand, you can understand with time. So and and the effort.
Lora Krsulich:So, you know, now Goodwin and embarking on a practice that's focused on intellectual property and and having to, you know, read patents and understand them. When I when I initially read a patent, right, like, it doesn't come naturally to me. Like, I don't have the science background, but I know that if I take the time, right, to digest it and ask questions about it and talk to people who are familiar with the science, that I can break it down and learn it. And I think it's hugely important to have that mentality as a trial lawyer because you have will have to teach that patent to a jury or a judge who's not as familiar with it. Right?
Lora Krsulich:And so I and and I love that part about my practice. It's one of my it's it's and when I noticed that when I'm doing problems like that where I have to break down complicated work and translate it, It that's the part that's most enjoyable for me.
Khurram Naik:How do you balance like, this this time is concept was pretty interesting. I wanna follow-up on this. I mean, I think something that's a a challenge when you're practicing when you're developing yourself at any stage, particularly when you're developing yourself, is balancing how much you try to figure out your own and then how much you turn to an expert. How have you what's your formula for that that you developed over time?
Lora Krsulich:It is really my number one struggle. Because my instinct is sort of to, like, isolate myself and kind of and burrow. I'm, like, making this gesture, like, with my hands. But it's like because I really I do like this process of, like, engaging with research and documents and writing my own notes and translating it. But it's a muscle that I've learned over time and exercised over time.
Lora Krsulich:It's just you can bring in people into that process and just you know? So I always thought, oh, I have to have the right answer or an understanding before I go out and ask people about some technical part of what I'm doing. And I'm I'm starting I'm learning. I'm still learning that, like, I can go up to someone in the middle of my process and just say, hey. Can you help me think about this?
Lora Krsulich:Like, this is how I am thinking about the law in this way. It seems like there's cases that say this and cases that say that. What do you think? And and just listening to them. And it doesn't mean that they're right and I'm wrong or, you know, they understand so much better than I do.
Lora Krsulich:It's just a process of, like, learning the material. And so I I I think the question was, like, when do I do that? I I try to do it earlier and earlier on than I had done before. And I do think it makes the whole learning process more efficient when you have other people coming in and offering their guidance or ideas earlier on.
Khurram Naik:And, you know, you also mentioned this concept of using time effectively, and I think that ties into something I understand that is a key part of of understanding you and your trajectory is your life as a parent. We talked a little about this before, but I I I'd love to hear about your experience of know, what was the before or after of having kids with how it impacted how you practice?
Lora Krsulich:Yes. So I have a one year old and a four year old, and the process of becoming a mom and litigating as becoming a mom has really changed how I do things. I, you know, I think before I had my oldest son, William, one thing I really like to do was and, you know, you can judge for yourself whether you think it's a bad habit or not. But I I I love my work, and and I like doing it. And so I would kinda let it hang over.
Lora Krsulich:Right? So, I'd I'd I'd let the day go. I researched, and then I'd, you know, think, oh, I could do this later in the evening or I could do it, over the weekend. And it wasn't really a problem for me, you know, because I I was fine to do it at any at any point in time. I liked what I was doing.
Lora Krsulich:So, yeah, I'd create my own space. And when I when I had William and I realized I made the choice that, you know, I wanted to spend the majority of my weekends and at least a block of time in the evening with him, I recognize that that attitude of allowing this work to hang over was no longer going to be acceptable having made the choice that I did to spend the time with William in the way that I wanted to. And so I had to become more effective day to day. Right? I couldn't I didn't have that luxury that I had anymore.
Khurram Naik:And so then how did that chain I mean, what else changed with your practice then? Is it just about like, how do you get more done in less time? Because you're, like you know, you're still you know, your performance doesn't change over time. You know, you're still, like, as you progress, you're getting more and more senior and more and more responsible for more in your cases. So, like, how have you been able to get more done in the same amount of time?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. So the I think a lot more about what I do early on in an assignment. So let me give an an example. So when I get when I get a when I have a task that I'm turning to, one of the first things I do is try to triage triage the assignment and think through, okay. What is it that I don't know that I need to know in order to do this assignment well?
Lora Krsulich:And rather than, you know, digging in and then having that those questions come up as I go, I try to front load them and ask those questions early on so I can start, you know, pushing them out to the people who I need answers from. And, you know, as a second layer pass, I look through and and try to think, okay. Are there tasks here that can be assigned to other people on this team so that I don't keep everything on my plate. And, you know, can I ask for help here? And and I think that makes the whole process more efficient.
Lora Krsulich:Right? Because I'm being realistic about the time I have and recognizing early on where I need to get help from other people on my team. And I I do think that allows me to do more with less time.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. And you had gone to trial not long after having your first. Right? So from William. So then what was that experience like?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. So so it was it was with Bennett. So I Bennett was born on 01/01/2023. I ended up going to trial in December of that year. And then this past year, I went to trial twice in July and in October.
Lora Krsulich:So three trials in his first two years of life. And I I I wrote a piece about it for PLI, and and I'm still kinda processing it. But, you know, one thing that comes to mind is just, you know, it's it's very it's very difficult to be able to balance both. And I think you have to be true to yourself about what you can do and what you can't do in the amount of time that you have. And that realizing that has been very helpful for me.
Lora Krsulich:So, like, if when I'm going to trial, right, and and the most important thing the most important thing I've learned is when you say you're gonna do something, you need to do it. You need to follow through and do it on time when you're going to trial because everything's happening very quickly. There are a lot of people that are working on the team that need your deliverables. And so communication has been important. Right?
Lora Krsulich:Because I, you know, I know how much time I'm gonna have. I'm being more realistic about what I can do. I can, you know, I can say, okay. I can get this draft by this date and and really commit to that and know that I can do that. And it's been very important for me to be more realistic about my time and to also be very effective with the time that I have so I can I can meet those meet those promises?
Lora Krsulich:Mhmm.
Khurram Naik:And is there is that advice, you know, generalized? What do you think then that if there's another person who is, you know, a a parent with young children heading into trial, is there is there anything else that you would add for for tips for them for how to be able to to make trial a success for them?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. I think there's a whole flip side of that where you need to ask for support for the kids. So for me, I had that conversation early on with my husband and with my with my mom and and with about, you know, I really wanted to do this. Right? I wanted to go to trial.
Lora Krsulich:How are we going to do how are we gonna do all these things without anyone burning out or feeling resent and resentful? Right? So we had that conversation. We decided to and so I had that conversation internally, but I also had it with other friends who have who have kids and our litigators as well about what they do. And through that whole process, someone suggested hiring childcare on Saturdays and just having regular childcare support on Saturdays.
Lora Krsulich:Someone who can always come, and if you need to work, you can work. If you wanna be with your kids, you can, and that person can help with other things that are around the house. And it was a that that, like, discussion and the decision to bring on more childcare on Saturdays was, like, hugely beneficial to me. Right? Because I recognized, you know, I could I had another day as, a safety valve, right, if I needed more time to do my work.
Lora Krsulich:But it also was a relief for, you know, my husband who was gonna take care of the kids every other time, right, to know that, okay, there was gonna some there was gonna be support on Saturdays. Right? I'm gonna have support and someone can come in. And then we obviously invest we invested in daycare to make sure that, you know, the burden of childcare didn't fall on him exclusively, and just had a lot of conversations about how to make these changes in our in our in our home life to make it possible for me to devote as much time as I wanted to preparing for trial and then going away, you know, during the time that I needed to go away to and be totally absent from the house. So this this communication was very important, being realistic about how much I'm gonna have to dedicate at home.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. I think another transformation I'm hearing your story is one from going alone, trying to do your best to figure things out by yourself to community orientation. And, like so, like, that's how you were doing the upfront work on a new matter to figure, okay, working back to the ultimate outcome, what do I need to know and who can work on what? That that's a community oriented, team oriented approach. Then this other community oriented team oriented approach of of finding the help you need for childcare and and and and taking care of the household.
Khurram Naik:So is that a pattern you've noticed in yourselves as moving more and more over time to being more embedded in communities?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. It I it it is definitely a pattern that I've noticed in myself, particularly in the last, you know, five years. And I I wonder saying that whether having kids and needing to do that, needing to rely on community has encouraged that behavior more than I than I had needed to do it before I had kids because William's about to turn five at the January. So it sort of tracks that time timeline. Yeah.
Lora Krsulich:I and and to tie it back to what we've been talking about earlier, I I always thought that asking for help was a sign. I always thought I'd thought before that asking for help was a sign of weakness, a sign that you couldn't handle something, you didn't know what you were doing, and people would know that you didn't know what you were doing. Right? And, like, I I I think that ties back to being first generation, and I've I've I've been thinking about this experience. I'll give one example.
Lora Krsulich:I remember applying to college. And at the time, I knew I would need to rely on federal student aid, FAFSA. And there were peep there was a group that was you know, had this scheme where they were, like, selling FAFSA forms in my school district. I went to a public school in San Bruno, and we were so desperate for information about financial aid that we ended up paying some money to this this group to buy a FAFSA form and, like, get information about federal student aid and colleges. And, you know, like, that's been that's a long time ago, but something like that stuck with me.
Lora Krsulich:Right? Like, I needed help. I asked for help, and I got, you know, swindled. Right? And, like so, you know, I thought for the long time, I I have to do my own work and putting the time in to become an expert without relying on other other people.
Lora Krsulich:And and I think it's a huge help to me that I've let that go as much as I have in the last five years and been more willing to admit, you know, where I need help and where I can develop. And, you know, like, I think it's made me better lawyer, better mom, hopefully. But it it's also made it more enjoyable. Right? Because I really like connecting with people.
Lora Krsulich:Like, I like connecting with people. I like learning. I like hearing about other people's ideas. And so doing it, I think, has been, you know it's hard, but it's it's a huge it's a huge success to me. Huge benefit.
Khurram Naik:You know, that's such an interesting story for you to say because this this FAFSA scam. Because a reaction someone could have had to that is, oh, people out there, like, I don't I'm not connected, and I'm I'm on the outside, and so I can't trust other people. I have to frame things out on my own. So you could have retreated further into yourself. And this is actually something I was just thinking about.
Khurram Naik:I I just made a LinkedIn post about this Friday because it's something I've I've started to notice professionally as a legal recruiter that there's a dimension to practice, and then also through the podcast. So both from recruiting and from the podcast, observing, you know, the conversations I have with people in in exploring potentially doing a podcast episode or or or, you know, what I've learned from people that are successful is a dimension of practice is trust. There's I think any number of of very successful lawyers who are not very high trust, they don't trust opposing counsel. They don't trust judges. They don't trust their own colleagues.
Khurram Naik:And I, you know, I I've observed that. I think it's particularly common litigation. I I've never practiced as a transactional lawyer, but I have observed it in some people that are transactional lawyers too. I think there's an analog. And then conversely, there are are high trust people who are very willing to be vulnerable.
Khurram Naik:Here's things that I know and don't know. Here's the limits to my expertise. Willy also talk about, hey. Here here is where I have expertise at. Just being more open, period.
Khurram Naik:And so, Ashley, part of what even got me thinking about this is you and that you are one of the highest trust lawyers that I know. And, you know, working with you, getting to know you has been very easy for that reason, that you just from the beginning, you know, we work together that you had a lot of trust. And so does that resonate for you, this this trust dimension? And if so, it sounds like you have potential for not going the high trust route, but ended up going a high trust route. So is that something that you feel like was a conscious decision or a cumulative of of a number of of conscious decisions?
Khurram Naik:What are your thoughts on that?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. Thanks for the question. I mean, I think we it's something that we were talking about earlier on, actually, before we started recording. But this idea that you're more likely to be less trustworthy when you don't know someone and you don't know what's motivating them. And it's been so important for me in building trust to get to know people.
Lora Krsulich:So the people that I'm working with, the opposing counsel, like, court system, all of that, once I understand who the person is that I'm talking to, it helps me build a lot of trust. So, like, Horan, when we got to know each other, like, I, you know, I learned about Emma. I learned about your kiddo. I learned where you are, what motivates you at at Freshwater Council, right, to do what you're doing. And all of that, like, resonated with me, and I understood who you were as a person.
Lora Krsulich:Right? And I was able to trust you with this career transition process. Right? Because I'm like, I know for him. Right?
Lora Krsulich:Like, I know who he is, and I know where his values are. And also your pod your post on LinkedIn, right, helped me understand, like, what you care about as a recruiter and how thoughtful you are about that. And but translating that over like, I I attended this, like, transition to leadership training that Goodwin runs. It was run by this Harvard Business School professor, and he was talking about managing junior lawyers on your team and how you do that successfully. And one thing that resonated with me was just, like, when you're giving assignments, he's like, you wanna know what's going on in that person's life when you're giving them an assignment.
Lora Krsulich:Right? Like, you wanna know, like, you know, are they do they you know, are they planning a wedding? Like, do they have kids? You know? Are they staffed on other matters?
Lora Krsulich:Like, you know, how busy are they? Right? You wanna know all of that about the people that you're working with so that you can set realistic expectations and have more trust when you're giving them an assignment that it's within their, like, within their capability to get it done. Right? And that they're motivated to do it.
Lora Krsulich:And then he you know, this professor was saying, like, lawyers don't take enough time to do that. And and it stuck with me. Right? Because I it's you know, being at Goodwin and working on larger teams now, right, you often find yourself working with other lawyers or and need to figure out, like, you need to take the time to who identify who those people are, right, and learn about them so that you can trust them when you're doing assignments. And I think that translates over, into everything.
Lora Krsulich:And it's something that I like to do, meet people. Right? It's, so so it comes it comes sort of natural to me. And I guess another thing I would say is, like, the opposite. Right.
Lora Krsulich:Like, the opposite not being able to trust anyone is sort of like a dark, dark place. And do you wanna like, question is, do you really wanna practice like that? And, like, for me, like, I wanna be a litigator. This is my career. I really enjoy it.
Lora Krsulich:Like, I do not wanna be in a place where I'm not trusting the people around me or opposing counsel. Right? Like, you know, I'm I'm going I'm going to verify. When I need to verify, I'm gonna check, but I'm I'm gonna trust that, you know, the people that I'm with, you know, or the people that I'm surrounding myself with are gonna act with integrity and advocate for their clients and and, you know, do all those things that we're supposed to do as lawyers. So it's it makes the practice more enjoyable and sustainable for me.
Khurram Naik:I think part of it too for me has been that I've been able to trust more the more confidence I have in my skill set. And so I didn't really have a lot of confidence in myself as a patent litigator. I was mediocre at best. And so but, you know, as a legal recruiter in particular, I think I've I really feel it's been a culmination of my interest and skill set of, like you're saying, being very people centric and and, let's say, community centric. And so I think there there too is a virtuous cycle of confidence to your abilities and an ability to trust other people.
Khurram Naik:Because I think where a lot of low trust stems from is an insecurity about not wanting to be seen as rude or incompetent or whatever. And so then not being able to trust other people and putting walls up because you don't want to be the wall is it's it's intended so that people don't see that you're not doing your work, but that it's a two way street because you can't see them and connect coordinate with them. Yeah. So for you, I mean, it sounds like you got some early feedback that you were good at what you did. You know, you were taking that deposition very early on.
Khurram Naik:Did you feel if mastery is maybe I mean, I think mastery is a process, not really an outcome. Yes. At some level, yes. There's stopping points along the way. You know, on a journey, there's a stopping point, a scenic view.
Khurram Naik:Say, oh, look how far I've come. So maybe it's like that. But would you say that you started to feel mastery pretty early on that way?
Lora Krsulich:There there were certain skills that I felt more competent at earlier in my career and some that I that I needed to build. So I I did I didn't feel a lot of I I felt very competent at depositions early on. It felt like a natural fit to me. I if you talk to my friends from high school, they'd say, like, Laura's always into this, like, one on one interrogation thing. Like, it was something that I, you know, like, I I enjoyed doing.
Lora Krsulich:And but I so so but some of that may be I had, like, a false confidence because the more and more I've practiced depositions and, you know, reviewed my transcripts and talked to other people who are more senior at me than me at deposing witnesses, like, you learn there's a lot of room to grow. Right? So, yeah, there was there's some comfort in that skill, you know, recognizing there's room to grow there too. And some of the skills that came less that were less readily available was something like standing up in court and doing oral argument. For for a while, I I just didn't understand what the purpose of that argument was.
Lora Krsulich:Right? Like, I, you know, I understood the court had the briefs. Right? The court could ask questions if they had it, but, you know, we've put everything into the briefs that the court needed to Like, what's the purpose of oral argument? And I think as, you know, a junior lawyer, like, I would try to memorize all the law and, you know, have it readily available and kind of like run through the law for the court.
Lora Krsulich:And the more times I've been able to stand up in court and do oral argument, like, I realized, like, that I'm I was overcomplicating it. Like, the point of oral argument is to simplify the message. Right? Where a brief is 30 pages, like, oral argument is I mean, really, like, this court has a limited attention span. So you need to pick it's your opportunity to highlight the strengths of your client's case and to simplify it, right, and make it easy to understand so the court like, it makes just it just your client's case makes sense.
Lora Krsulich:And so, anyway, it it did not come easily to me early on, but I've I've gotten more used to it, and I really like it. Now I really like being able to stand up in court.
Khurram Naik:Let's make an analogy. Okay. So in a brief, maybe you have several arguments and then oral arguments, and you've organized them in terms of importance, that's clear. But then, as I said, there's something about oral argument where you can really simplify and clarify your maybe your strongest argument, and maybe that's your approach. Is there an analog to career?
Khurram Naik:And you mentioned, hey. There's some things I was stronger at, some things I wasn't as strong at. One approach would be shoring up the things you aren't as strong at. Another approach would be doubling down things you're strong at and making for yourself a simple story about who you are. And here's a simple story about who I am and what I'm good at, and that's the thing I'm pursuing.
Khurram Naik:So is that the route that you take professionally, or have has it been more multipronged and and yeah. Like, a multipronged, you know, approach to professional development.
Lora Krsulich:So what I've started to do is think through I I don't know I don't know if it was on your podcast or another another podcast I was listening to, but someone someone said, you have to pay attention to the problems that you work on that energize you. Like, if you're working on a problem that you just feel, like, demoralized and you don't wanna do it, like, and you're struggling with that and act of engaging with it, then maybe that's not the type of work that you should be doing. But if you have a problem that is like, when you're working on it, you're energized to you know, you like doing it, you like focusing on that, that's where you should focus your attention. And, like, for me, you know, depositions, obviously, I I really enjoy that process. Like, figuring out how to deal with a difficult witness and get admissions, that's something that I could do, like, in my free time.
Lora Krsulich:Like, I really like that stuff. And then oral argument, you know, standing up and presenting and and make and simplifying an argument, that's also something that motivates me. So it's like, it does I'm not focused on one thing in particular in terms of the way I advocate, but it's like, I've been paying attention to the things that I really enjoy doing, and I'm allowing that I'm allowing my career to grow around those things. And yeah. So so that that's that's sort of how I'm approaching.
Lora Krsulich:I don't know if that answers the question, but
Khurram Naik:that's No. That that's a really good answer. And I think that explains what I'm doing myself where, you know, I had I mean, before law school, I was the president of my undergrad alumni chapter. And in that, you know, I've heard about, you know, one I was pretty new to Chicago, so was my way of meeting people. I was, like, my lens on meeting people.
Khurram Naik:I was, like, a a small enough, trans well enough group of people. It was an overwhelming number of people, so it was, like, I think, in many ways ideal. And so then I had to organize these events, and I had to learn how to, like, you know, network with professionals to of peers or or or other alums with varying professional, like, success and and and seniority. And so that was my first exposure to networking, the concept of networking. And so, like, I I taught myself networking through that.
Khurram Naik:And because of that, then, you know, when I went to choose law school, I was able to choose law school where I had a full scholarship, but it was gonna be in Chicago. And so I said, okay. Well, I could do that, or the partial scholarship for, you know, the very strong state school that we have in Illinois. So I went with the Chicago one because I'm like, hey. I'll be downtown Chicago.
Khurram Naik:I'll be able to network this new thing that I just learned. And so I was excited about putting that into action, and and so then I networked my way into Big Law. Then And I networked my way from there to my lateral move to your now practice. And so that so this this core skill set of networking has been with me for years, and, of course, it's a the core skill set that that facilitates my work today as a as a legal recruiter. And so I could be getting better and better than that, and there's so much more room for me to be getting better and better than that.
Khurram Naik:But I think to my surprise, I found I didn't ever expect myself to be a manager, but now I've made a couple recent hires. And so now I've found myself to be a manager. And, yeah, I think that is energizing me. And so I just you have just explained to me why I'm making the decisions that I'm doing. Because I just didn't really understand in myself, like, why am I pursuing these things instead of doubling down things that are already strengths?
Khurram Naik:I think because I have gotten to, say, 80% of where I'd wanna be, let's say. And, yeah, there's a lot more value I could be getting out of pushing it up to a 100% or 90%, and arguably a maybe even arguably a higher ROI activity given how far that skill has gotten me. And, yeah, we're human beings, so we have to be motivated by things. And so I have found something else that is high ROI in a in a different dimension that may I think, also, we can be surprised at what turns out to be high ROI in the long run. You don't know in advance, so I think it is a good idea to round out some of your skills.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. So, again, I think this I I really like your idea of pursuing what is interesting to you in that phase because careers are long. Right? And so there's Yeah. No need to feel like it's some sort of whack a mole thing where you're just having to master everything all at once.
Khurram Naik:Like, you pursue something for some period of time and say, okay. What's the next thing I wanna pursue?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. No. And, like, I I I think I put a lot of pressure on myself earlier in my career to, like, be the best trial litigator and present that way. Right? And then, you know, over time, I've got given myself more grace and realized, like like you said, careers are long.
Lora Krsulich:Right? And, like, we group of us were talking about this case and were, like, pointing out that the lead lawyers, were all in their mid sixties. Right? The lead lawyers. And so you think, like, to get to the peak of your career, right, it takes some time to build up, like, the comfort, the connections, right, the the facility with the law and the way you're arguing and, like, giving yourself the grace to do that.
Lora Krsulich:Right? But, you know, like you said, recognizing that it's gonna be a long time. So if you're just, like, constantly, like, hitting your head against the wall, not enjoying what you're doing, like, that's that's misery. Right? You don't wanna practice that way.
Lora Krsulich:And so you have to think about, like, what you're gonna enjoy and then give yourself the grace to get better at it.
Khurram Naik:Turning back to your approach for getting emissions out of a hostile witness. What what can you share some of your your your trade secrets there? What's your approach? Well,
Lora Krsulich:let's see. I okay. I I think patience is very important, and knowing the documents is very important. And also following listening and following up on the answers. Let's see.
Lora Krsulich:I'm just throwing things out now. And and and also watching the witnesses' body language and whether they wanna tell you more from their answer. I found that all very important. I also think it's really important to be in the room with the witness. This is kind of this is something people have been debating more in the post pandemic period, but I do think it's really important to be in the same room.
Lora Krsulich:Horem, you may not believe it, but I once had a witness where I was so in tune with them that I knew when they needed to go to the bathroom. And we just kinda look at each other like, k. Can we get a break? Like, we were very in tune. And that witness actually asked me to go out to lunch after the deposition because we're just like on the same page.
Lora Krsulich:Wow. And I think I I think that ability to, like, read body language, like, get in the same headspace as them, understand where they're coming from, like, read all their documents. Right? I think that you can be very effective at getting good admissions from that. So that's what I've that's what I've done.
Lora Krsulich:I think it works.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. I think something else that ties into, you know, working on your this constituency assessments, like, hey. Like, there's no reason why you have to wait to acquire skills. So something that, you know, you haven't waited on is business development. That's something that you've taken seriously.
Khurram Naik:You've originated clientele and and work. Tell me about how you came to want that and then how you pursued it.
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. So great. So so as I got further along in my career, I looked around at the partners that I was working with, and I recognized the confidence that partners had when they were able to develop their own business, right, and their own client relationships. And I knew that I wanted that. I wanted to be the person that a client could call and and that I'd be their contact.
Lora Krsulich:I'd be the if they had an issue, like, they knew they could could call me, and I thought I'd be good at it because I'm calm. Like, I'm understanding. So I knew I wanna do that. And I'll just do an aside. I when I was clerking, my co clerk, Abigail Urquhart, her dad is Bill Urquhart, And she would have us they're extremely generous.
Lora Krsulich:Abigail is extremely generous. Her dad, who's passed, is extremely generous. And he'd have us clerks over. And the way they opened up their house, that like, very moving to me actually. The way they opened up their house to us and the way her dad talked about client development is like bringing people in to be part of the family.
Lora Krsulich:That always stuck with me and how important that is to do that. And so I saw you know, that was my first kind of interaction, personal interaction with a big law partner while I was clerking and to witness what he did and and how he how he handled that with his family was really inspiring to me. And so I always kept that in mind as something that I wanted to do when I was thinking about client development. But, you know, being a first generation lawyer, I didn't have people in my family who were lawyers or even, like, people who had the means to hire lawyers to do the type of work that we did. And so looking forward in my career, it was a few like, it was a question.
Lora Krsulich:Like, how was I gonna do this? I wanted to do it, but how? You know, I didn't I didn't think I had a network that would just organically feed me business. So I had this great fortune of a friend from college referred me to her friend, Megan Sanese at Stage, who she has her own business where she works with, you know, senior associates, junior partners in figuring out how to develop business and how to network. And, like, some of the ideas that have come from my meetings with Megan are just like I I love them.
Lora Krsulich:I I I find them, like, you know, they're it makes it makes networking makes sense to me. So in the way that we talked about, like, doing things that, you know, you'd you find joy in and that you like doing, I mean, networking, working with Megan has become one of those things. Right? So one of the things we talked about was this idea. I used to go I mean, I still go to these, like, big bar association events.
Lora Krsulich:Right? And you sort of feel like, you know, there's tons of people in the room. Like, how am I gonna get to know anyone? But this is my this is how I'm supposed to network. This is how I'm supposed to meet people.
Lora Krsulich:And, you know, with Megan, like, her idea was okay. Like, let's set some specific goals around those big events. Like, maybe it's two or three people I wanna get to know well enough at that event to follow-up with them and and, you know, network. Okay? That's the that's the goal.
Lora Krsulich:It's not like meeting everyone in the room or passing business cards. It's like having a tangible goal when you go there. So we talked about that. But then also, like, how can we develop our own networking events? Right?
Lora Krsulich:Like, you don't have to rely on the bar association to develop your networking events. You can invite people over your house for dinner. You can organize, like, a price fix dinner at a restaurant and coordinate people to come together. And so taking ownership of some of that networking, it was it was like, oh, like a light bulb. Like, okay.
Lora Krsulich:As a first gen lawyer, like, this is something that I can do. Right? I can definitely do this. And I can I like going to dinner? I like having people over my house.
Lora Krsulich:Right? I like all these things. So once I started to work with her, I recognized that client development was something that I could do even as a more junior lawyer and that I like doing. And so I've been, you know, doing it more regularly.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. And I I I have to thank you know, again, on the topic of high trust, I mean, I think that's I have to thank Megan because she's the one who introduced us. And so she had she was high trust in that. She had identified me based on, you know, my LinkedIn posts, and because we didn't know each other at all. And then and then you, in turn, trusted her and trusted me, you know, when we connected.
Khurram Naik:So it just it was this, like, it just was really nice experience of this, like, virtuous cycle of trust that we all experienced.
Lora Krsulich:Mhmm.
Khurram Naik:Was there any relationship between the things you learned maybe from Megan or or generally in business development that have impacted how you practice?
Lora Krsulich:Yes. So there's this concept of taking ownership. Right. Taking ownership of and being taking ownership and being proactive. That has been very important for how I practice.
Lora Krsulich:So take something like client development. I had always thought that client development meant a partner taking an interest in you and introducing you to their clients and you building a client relation or relationship with them through that. And then when that partner, you know, leaves the practice, that you would take on that relationship. And that's what client development meant, right, to me. And it it didn't feel like I had a lot of control over that process at that time.
Lora Krsulich:Like, you know, the partner had to see something in you, you know, through something that you've done. Like, the client had to like you, but maybe, you know, they just had to like you for who you were. You didn't you didn't have to do anything. Right? And and working with Megan, I've realized, you know, there's a whole lot more that you can do to if that's the path you choose.
Lora Krsulich:Right? If that's a path you choose to make that successful. Right? Like, you can be the one that is reaching out to the partner, right, and reminding them of the things that you've done or the things that you wanna do. Right?
Lora Krsulich:And telling them, you know, hey. I'm thinking about this particular contact. Do you have any ideas for how to connect with them or whatever? And you being the one that's putting that on your plate to reach out. And apart from that, just, like, not relying on not relying exclusively on someone to take an interest in you.
Lora Krsulich:Right? Starting to develop your own network and personal contacts and be you know, posting on LinkedIn and becoming a person who talks about the issues that you care about. And, like, all of that is within your ownership, your ability to do that. And I think that's, like, so important. Like, things don't happen to you.
Lora Krsulich:You can take them on yourself. And I've learned that through the process of iterating with Megan and figuring out what's gonna work for me. And, like, just applying, you know, applying that applying that to litigation. Right? Like, you can it something basic as, like, you can think the judge knows the law.
Lora Krsulich:Right? Like, patent infringement they know patent infringement law. Like, they know the way it works. But the way you present it, right, like, in the the aspects of the law that you highlight can influence that person. Right?
Lora Krsulich:So, what can you do to influence the way that the judge thinks? And taking taking back some of that ownership of it. Like you said, advocating in every way that you can. Right? I think that's working with Megan has allowed me to kind of realize how much ownership I have over the trajectory of various aspects of my career.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. And then tell me about what led you to Goodwin. I mean, you were I mean, you're growing and progressing at Sussman, getting this great trial experience. What even had you considering making a change, and and then how did your judgment land on on on Goodwin and and patent litigation?
Lora Krsulich:Yeah. So Nick Spear, the person I talked to you about earlier who kind of introduced me to Sussman, told me at the time that think he advised me, take think about your career in three year chunks, And think about what you wanna get from your career in those three year chunks. And when you're thinking about different career choices, think about them in that way. Like, which choice will best position me after this period of time? Like, three years is an arbitrary number, but think about it in a chunk.
Lora Krsulich:And when I had my second son, Bennett, I committed to myself that I was going to start that process of thinking through the next stage of my career. So I was I had been in I think I had four years under my belt at Sussman at that point in time. I was in my fifth year. And I committed myself to myself to thinking through, okay. I wanna make partner, and I wanna litigate.
Lora Krsulich:Where where will I do that that will make me the most effective, that will let me grow? So I I, you know, I did a lot of that conversation in the year. You know? So Bennett was born January 1, so I kinda let that be my motive motivation and then did a lot of thinking with friends and colleagues and partners and different people. And I don't think we started working together until, like, November at the end of that year.
Lora Krsulich:So it had taken some time. And, like, there were things that I wanted to look for for the next part of my career that were really important. One was this idea of, like, being a partner to business. Like, how like, having being a lawyer that understands the way that business works and that can that can help a business move from various aspects of their career. This idea of partnership and getting to know the people at the client that you're working for was really important to me.
Lora Krsulich:So and then the second thing that I was looking for was just, like like, collaboration within the organization. So multifaceted teams, teams of science advisers, people of various parts of their career, and this emphasis on collaboration and mentorship that I thought would help me grow as a lawyer, right, from from where I was and and, like, into a career. And then the IP focus, like, I'd always been very interested science and technology and having done a couple of IP cases at Sussman. It was something that I wanted to do a deep dive in and focus on because it was just, like, interesting. And, also, I recognize that if you become really skilled at the law, you can go far with that in terms of client development.
Lora Krsulich:And, also, like, I saw my expertise as being someone who could translate technical terms into more simpler concepts, and that process lended itself well to IP litigation where you often have to, like, translate technical concepts in a patent to translate them to a jury. So those are the types of things that I was looking for, and I was sort of open to that when we started working together. And then, you know, through that process, you introduced me to different firms and helped me think through, like, what were the strengths of some of the firms, the people that I was hoping to connect with in the different departments, in the units. And Goodwin was just a great fit for those things that I was looking for. You know, having such a large business law department that takes companies, like, from, you know, their early stages all the way through IPOs and all the growth and that collaboration between business law and litigation was something.
Lora Krsulich:Was like, oh, this this could be a really nice fit. Right? Because I could see myself as a as a counselor, right, as someone who's, like, helping long term clients. Right? And then the collaboration, I know there's a focus focus at Goodwin on cross unit collaboration and mentorship and promoting professional professional growth.
Lora Krsulich:You know, there are tons of workshops and trainings as you come along. I've at least done a public speaking workshop and then this transition to leadership workshop. So that's all, like I can see, like, huge benefits from that in my career, like, growing and growing and growing. And then the IP focus, like, IP litigation unit at Goodwin is just, like, very tight knit. We do a lot of different cases, trademark, patent, copyright.
Lora Krsulich:And the group is very I I I remember talking to Neil and Brad about wanting to develop a litigation unit that has a lot of people who are focused on science, but also has these general litigators who can who can go in between. And, like, the fact that you have this mix in this business unit has been really nice for me. And so it just it just worked out. It was a great fit, and it was, you know, very difficult to make that decision, like, having felt at home at Sussman and and loving the people there and loving my colleagues there. But I I did take the leap, and and and I'm really happy.
Lora Krsulich:So
Khurram Naik:It seems to me that part of your story is inverting things that at that facially seem like weaknesses in the strengths. So, like, the fact that you're first gen, didn't have a community benefit, then you said, okay. Well, then I wanna create that. So then with business development, same thing. Like, okay.
Khurram Naik:We don't have somebody who's just gonna hand off you know, whether or not this this concept that is a fiction that someone's gonna hand off this business to you, that there are some who do come with relationships or or embedded in some sort of social ecosystem that's gonna facilitate that. And then also, let's say this this point about the not having a technical background, you know, and then any number of other patent practices, they just say, just from the outright, no. We don't want anyone who who has a non doesn't have a technical background. But you have inverted that into a strength to say, hey. The fact that I don't have a technical background means I'm not gonna get hung up in the minutiae and the details.
Khurram Naik:I can see the big picture and simplify the story. So it seems like there's been a recurring theme throughout your career is inverting weaknesses of strength. I don't I don't know if that resonates for you.
Lora Krsulich:I think yeah. I guess so. I mean but the other thing is, like, you see a problem. Right? Like, I I see I see a problem of IP litigation for jury trials, right, in particular.
Lora Krsulich:And, you know, maybe and you have to think about your audience. Right? Like, maybe you need technical litigators if you're at the PTO. Right? And and you have patent examiners, and you're talking to them, and they have science backgrounds, and they're steeped in the science.
Lora Krsulich:Right? But if you are talking to a jury, right, like, of 12 people who are randomly selected, right, who have no background in patent litigation or, you know, the specific science that you're talking about, you need people who also are new to the science, right, like, and have a fresh perspective to translate that over. And so I guess it's an opportunity. Right? And I I listened to the podcast with, and he talked about it in the same way.
Lora Krsulich:It's like, you see a gap, and there's an opportunity there to fill it. Right? Like, to find there's a need here. This is something that I can do, right, that nobody else is doing, and there's a huge growth opportunity there. So that's that's kind of the way I've I've seen it.
Lora Krsulich:It's just like, yes, maybe it it you know, someone could consider it a deficit, but I think it's just because it's not there already doesn't mean that it's not gonna be hugely valuable. So, yeah, so I guess I I think you're right.
Khurram Naik:Do you consider yourself strategic, and do you consider yourself ambitious? And has has either of those values changed over time?
Lora Krsulich:This is this is very funny that you asked this question because I had this conversation with Megan. I think we dedicated, like, two of our monthly sessions to it where she said, you know, you're you're high highly strategic.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm.
Lora Krsulich:And I took offense to that. I was like, what does that mean? Like, it mean I'm I'm not calculating. I'm not, like, I'm not, you know Machiavellian. Machiavellian.
Lora Krsulich:Right? And that's the way I had interpreted that word. And and she's like, absolutely not. So, like, you have to own that word. You have to take that word back.
Lora Krsulich:Like, being strategic just means, like, being thoughtful and and thinking through what your skills are and how they match up to what you wanna do. And so I would absolutely say that I've done that work. Right? Like, I've thought about, you know, going back to, like, what I enjoyed doing as a kid and what I like doing as a kid and what I and what I value for my own work and what I like about that. And thinking through those skills and matching them to the type of work that I wanna do.
Lora Krsulich:Right? Like, I wanna do I've I've and I've narrowed it and narrowed it as we go. Right? Like, being an IP litigator who focuses on jury trials is something is a strategic decision that I've made based on an evaluation of my personality, my particular skill set. And, like, I I, you know, I could have done any number of things, and this is where I've landed because I fought through it.
Lora Krsulich:Right? So and maybe maybe later in my career, I'll think about something different, but I think this is a great match for where I am right now.
Khurram Naik:And what about ambition? Ambit being ambitious?
Lora Krsulich:Yes. I I I you you know what comes to mind is this idea of, like, being a gunner in school, in law school, and you never wanna be the gunner. Yep. So it's like, oh god. Am I gonna just admit to being a gunner?
Lora Krsulich:But I I I like, you have to be ambitious to stay this long in big law. Like, you have to want something more freer
Khurram Naik:You have a vision.
Lora Krsulich:Freer. You have to have a vision. And so, yeah, I do think I'm ambitious.
Khurram Naik:What do you see for yourself in the next six months? What are you excited about in the next six months?
Lora Krsulich:So I'm I'm very excited about continuing to build relationships with other lawyers like Goodwin, in the IP litigation unit, and in our business law department. It's very important for me to feel at home someplace to continue to build those relationships. So that's where I'm focused on. And then, you know, more more and more training, more and more exposure to jury trials. I'm looking for any cases that are like that.
Lora Krsulich:Right? Like, that are going to trial. And I've been thinking about how to take advantage of my proximity now being downtown to the district court. So thinking about spending some time there, continuing to network with Jed Gutierrez, who's now moved to jams and and and picking his brain about different things. And I'm also gonna take a Anita training, National Institute for Trial Advocacy training in February to continue to develop my trial skills.
Lora Krsulich:So I'm excited about all those things.
Khurram Naik:That's good mix. Well, Laura, I'm glad that we sat down to talk to to to share your story because I think it's so inspirational for so many, first gen or otherwise. And I really admire the way that you approach practice. You are extremely hardworking and down to earth. But then also, you, again, you do have this strategy and ambition as well.
Khurram Naik:So it it it's it's an amazing cocktail, and so I'm really excited to see what your trajectory looks like in the coming years.
Lora Krsulich:Thank you so much, Horm. You said you're putting your bet on me, and I just wanna make you proud. So thanks so much for taking the time to sit with me and interview with me. I've really enjoyed it, and I I regret that our time is up. But I'm I'm glad we did it too.