The EcoSend Podcast

More and more brands these days are self-censoring their Sustainability efforts, due to fear of being called out for Greenwashing.

But as today's guest Maddy Cooper explains, this "paralysis of Greenhushing" is incredibly damaging for the success and momentum of the Sustainability movement. 

Since struggling with her own climate anxiety, Maddy took it upon herself to transform her career in Marketing; first by attending the University of Cambridge's Sustainability Leadership Course, then taking her former agency through B-Corp certification, before finally launching her own Sustainability Marketing practise - Flourish. 

In this episode, Maddy gives a wealth of practical tips, tools, and resources to help Marketers speak with confidence about their Sustainability efforts. 

As our penultimate guest of the season, Maddy chatted with James about: 

😟 Her struggles with climate anxiety since the birth of her children.
🏦 The importance of prioritising the commercial case for Sustainability, in order to win shareholder buy-in.
🥰 How brands like Patagonia are thriving thanks to their Sustainability focus.
🙅‍♀️ Attracting the next generation of talent; 1/3 of Gen Z applicants will reject employers with poor Sustainability credentials.
💚 How Sustainability must be at the heart of every company, not just a bolt-on.
... and much more! ✨

We'd highly recommend all Marketers to check out this episode - the tools and tips Maddy shares are incredibly practical and could really help transform your Sustainable Marketing efforts. Not to mention, as Maddy points out, organisations where Sustainability permeates through every area of the company unlock a great commercial advantage over their competitors 💚

About Maddy Cooper:
Maddy Cooper is CEO & Founder of Flourish, a sustainability marketing change agency. Flourish partners with major brands that are investing in sustainability transformation and want to communicate their efforts, without fear of greenwashing. Maddy is also an assessor for the University of Cambridge Centre for Sustainability Leadership’s Marketing, Media and Creative programme.

Further Resources from the episode:
Flourish website:
Flourish on LinkedIn:
Flourish on Twitter:
'Sustainable Marketing': (Use Code: SM20 for 20% off!)
'Sustainable Marketing Compass:
'Creative Happy Work' by Kat Byles:
'Win Without Pitching' by Blair Enns:

Music credit:

Creators & Guests

James Gill
CEO of GoSquared
Maddy Cooper
CEO & Founder of Flourish, a sustainability marketing change agency

What is The EcoSend Podcast?

Our journey into the world of being a truly climate conscious business. Join us as we talk to fellow entrepreneurs, founders, marketing folks, and campaigners to help us build our new product, EcoSend: the climate conscious email marketing tool.

[00:00:00] James Gill: Welcome to the EcoSend podcast. Stories from marketers, founders, and change makers.

[00:00:27] Hi there, welcome to another episode of the Ecosend podcast. I'm your host, James, and I'm thrilled to bring you another episode of the show. Uh, for those of you who are new to the Ecosend podcast, This is a show where I interview other people who are leaders and usually putting the planet and people First in their businesses and really trying to make the world a little bit better in their daily lives Uh, the show comes out every week.

[00:00:54] It's usually about half an hour and I hope you enjoy the show Uh, today I am joined by Maddy Cooper and Maddy is the CEO and founder of Flourish, which is a sustainable marketing change agency. Maddy, it is a pleasure to be with you today. How are you doing? Very

[00:01:12] Maddy Cooper: good. Um, yeah, pleasure to be here with you and you all too.

[00:01:17] James Gill: Awesome. Awesome. So Maddy, tell me a bit more about what you're up to and what you're doing with Flourish.

[00:01:24] Maddy Cooper: Yeah, great. So, um, I started Flourish last year. It's a very new agency, which is super exciting. Um, and in terms of the offer, Flourish basically partners with major brands that are already investing significantly in sustainability transformation.

[00:01:41] But they want to communicate their efforts without fear of the accusation of greenwashing. Um, so it's to enable those organizations that are doing the right thing to, um, accelerate their sales of more sustainable products, um, and make their brands relevant and valuable long term. And I really see that that's, that's really important that there's a lot of organizations that are kind of trying Screen hushing.

[00:02:04] And that's not good for the sustainability movement generally. Yeah. Consumers need to, will be inspired to change their behaviors. Corporations need to enable that change and kind of not put up with the con, the kind of the, like the, the misguided notion of like, oh, consumers won't pay more. They won't do, they, they won't make the effort to change.

[00:02:24] Marketing has the opportunity to enable that change. So that's what, what Flourish is all about. Um, Sustainable Marketing Change Agency. And then the other thing is that I'm an assessor for the University of Cambridge, um, Sustainability Leadership, Marketing, Media, and Creative Program. So lots of people are doing that, um, course now, and I, I assess and support with that.

[00:02:47] James Gill: Oh, amazing. Amazing. Out of all the universities, that's one of the good ones, I believe. My co founder, my co founder is a Cambridge graduate himself. So, uh, no, that's amazing. I, and, and back to your original, uh, point about what you're doing with Flourish, though, as well, like, I have to admit, you know, you know, maybe a year ago, I was very unaware of the concept of green hushing until it came up on, on a conversation on this podcast.

[00:03:15] And, uh, Learning that so many people, and we include ourselves in this, were really afraid to say anything, uh, on anything we were doing about climate, uh, for fear of saying the wrong things. So, um, it's incredible as well to hear that, like, that's not just people getting started, but it's even some of the biggest brands and companies out there also feel that way.

[00:03:38] Maddy Cooper: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. They do. They do. Yeah. And lots are doing the right thing, but they just don't know how to talk about it. That's what makes me uncomfortable.

[00:03:47] James Gill: Yeah. Amazing. So I, I'm looking forward to digging into this a lot more. But I, I always like to start with asking you, Maddy, how, how did you get into this?

[00:03:55] Like, why do you, why do you care about this? What's your journey been to, to this point in your life?

[00:04:01] Maddy Cooper: Um, so I think my more significant climate anxiety started to escalate as soon as I had children. I was, um, six and nine now. And I would find that I was having sleepless nights worrying about the planet that they were going to inherit.

[00:04:20] Would they be able to choose to have children, um, or will the planet be too hostile? Will they be able to love and cherish and experience the world? or will that not be viable because it's just too hot and hostile or inappropriate place to be able to live in? And that's a real possibility. We see that, we see that those change, those real climate changes happening so much already.

[00:04:44] So that was the kind of the main thing that inspired it. And then during the pandemic, um, I did the University of Cambridge program for um, sustainability, sustainability leadership. So the kind of, not the marketing specific one, but the, the kind of the business one more broadly. And then I think that kind of everything escalated from there.

[00:05:06] Um, because I, I understood more therefore I was even more concerned. So I took my previous agency, Brilliant Noise, through the B Corp journey with support from brilliant colleagues. Um, and then I set up a sustainability marketing practice within Brilliant Noise. So there I started to work with Nike and Allianz and we did work with Barilla and various kinds, lots of F& CG companies particularly.

[00:05:36] Um, but then last year I just decided that I didn't want to work in normal marketing anymore. Sure, sure. I feel at peace with marketing because I really, really believe that the only business that matters is sustainable. Cool. In the planet and society in the state that we are, all brands and the whole organizations need to be transitioning to be more sustainable as fast as possible.

[00:06:07] And therefore I want to only focus on sustainability. So in very amicable ways, I exited Brilliant Noise, which had been my agency, but I exited day to day work within Brilliant Noise. Um, And launch flourish and also started being an assessor for Cambridge kind of all all happened within last year.

[00:06:29] James Gill: Wow, it's been a busy year.

[00:06:32] Yeah, that's incredible, though, um, to really go and just sort of draw a line in the sand and say, like, now the whole focus, the only the only focus really is going to be working with sustainable brands, working with On, on helping them with their marketing around sustainability. Like that's a, a very, I guess a very crisp and clear message to be, be sending.

[00:06:56] And, um, Yeah, I guess something that not a lot of people would necessarily feel comfortable taking that leap. Uh, that must have been a, was it a difficult decision? Was it, uh, was there ever a point where you thought, what am I doing here? This is

[00:07:13] Maddy Cooper: Yeah, there were plenty of points of that. And, you know, I guess to an extent there still are.

[00:07:18] I had a brilliant business already. So starting all over again, um, was a, was a significant, uh, leap. But, uh, I think one has to have real purpose in one's work and I, this is all I care about and want to focus on for the sake of the whole of the marketing industry and then, you know, for the future of my children, everyone everywhere, this is what we need to be doing.

[00:07:47] Um, so I got to the point where I couldn't not do it. Yeah,

[00:07:50] James Gill: yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's incredible. So, I guess, um, now you've been doing this for about a year, do you feel You feel good? You feel, you feel like it was the right choice? You feel a piece of yourself doing this? Definitely. I

[00:08:09] Maddy Cooper: think having purpose and having absolute focus in offer makes life a lot more motivating.

[00:08:17] Um, and I, yeah, I feel really good about having made the decision. The feedback that I'm getting from what the clients are winning, and then just general feedback from the market, when they understand that proposition of really helping, helping the marketing teams of particularly big organizations, but marketing teams of all, all, all companies to understand how to move from business as usual to how their brand needs to show up and contribute to a sustainable future.

[00:08:52] Everything everyone's learned in marketing for the whole of their careers. All of that kind of business as usual approach of promote and sell the old way, the old things needs to be re imagined. And people, or those marketing teams need the capabilities to say the right things, do the right things, and not be in this paralysis of the gap between greenwashing and greenhousing.

[00:09:19] So there's a lot of demand for it and a lot of really, really positive feedback, which does make the leap, uh, feel like the right one.

[00:09:28] James Gill: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I, I, yeah, I, I think it's incredibly inspiring to hear that, that journey you've, you've taken. I can imagine. people listening to the show might, might have maybe thoughts in their heads about doing something similar, but it may be overcome with fear or, you know, all the reasons not to do it.

[00:09:47] And, uh, to, to, to hear from someone like yourself, who's actually made that, that leap and has come through the other side and, and it's clearly working. It's, uh, I'm sure very reassuring for many other people to, to, to hear that. So it's, yeah, fantastic. Thank you for sharing that Maddy. Um, I, I, I'm intrigued then, uh, for these bigger businesses, you, you know, given a lot of your work is around doing exactly this, like how, how do you get these larger businesses to actually engage in, in sustainability to put that on their agenda to be factory man in when, as you say, so many of the practices, the things that you're, you know, you've been learning all your life, professionally, sell, sell, sell, sell, make sure we make more profit and everything else is secondary.

[00:10:36] How do you even begin that conversation?

[00:10:39] Maddy Cooper: So, of course, it's a difficult one, because business is, um, has an operating system that we are, we are all used to. Yeah. With an absolute, you know, magic wand, blank sheet of paper, perhaps all of capitalism might be reimagined in service, only doing the right things for the planet and society.

[00:10:59] But there isn't time, I firmly believe that there just isn't time for that. Some people can choose to be brilliant and go off grid and whatever, but the whole of societies and the way that business works, there isn't, there isn't time to change the DNA of that. It exists as it is, and it's far more powerful to get big corporations, and of course governments, but get the big corporations to really engage with being better and doing more good than harm.

[00:11:32] So that the way to get those companies is to speak their language and candidly that language predominantly is money. The main way to get those organizations to engage is to show the commercial case for sustainability and sustainability. Action, but very importantly, sustainability marketing, a lot of companies from corporations to all businesses are actually doing a lot for sustainability.

[00:12:03] The problem is that majority of them don't know how to talk about it and therefore they don't know how to get the commercial return to buy it by making more of it. Right. And that's where you get this green hushing gap. So to get them to engage, the way I do that is to show them that the companies that are telling their sustainability stories.

[00:12:28] are the ones that are absolutely flourishing. So if you look on a spectrum of, for example, Unilever, that has a really ingrained sustainability strategy from the top leadership to all junior team members, um, through every brand, they're not perfect, but they take it really seriously and they communicate it really seriously through Ben Jerry's and Dove and all of the other brands.

[00:12:52] They, They are thriving, and their share price has increased 130 10 years, and their market share has gained significantly as well. Whereas if you then look at all of their other FMCG competitors, it's half that. Sales success and in terms of shareholder value. And this plays out across industries as well.

[00:13:13] Patagonia, 150 percent shareholder value increase over 10 years, of course. Because every time Patagonia stitch anything we hear about it and they're laughing their heads off. But the North Face, is doing amazing things. The North Face is transforming its supply chain. Again, it's not perfect, but it's buying like swathes of all of South America for rewilding, but it doesn't really talk about it.

[00:13:37] They're greedy. So that's a 30%. shareholder value increases. It's a fivefold difference between doing it and talking about it and being visibly sustainable and doing the same things, but not talking about it. So that's the, for me, that's the business case. And that's what works. I'm day of today, finding that that works is showing people that they can create a flourishing planet and society and do the right thing.

[00:14:08] And enable their businesses to thrive more than they would otherwise. Yeah. More than their competitors. And also then have the most meaningful careers like Mm-Hmm. . It's the best way to feel good about your career and your contribution is to know that you're not doing something that actually matters.

[00:14:25] James Gill: Yeah. That's, I mean, that's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I, I guess, you know, a lot of the conversations we have on this podcast are around. You know, when you start going down this path, actually, there's not always a loser out of putting the climate first and focusing more on sustainability, you know, people are so often like, Oh, doing that will cost more lead to some sort of other compromise somewhere.

[00:14:55] But when you look at like, how many benefits there are of, of, you know, Caring more about sustainability in the planet when you look at that, as you said, in terms of like, customer loyalty and, uh, employee retention, even, and passion for what they're doing. Like, all of these things are good business things, as well as actually, oh, you know, we're helping to kind of slow down the chaotic mess we're making the planet.

[00:15:24] Um, yeah, which is. Which is great. And yeah, really interesting now as well, what you're saying, like, I, you know, I, as, as I think many people listening, like you think of a brand that cares about the planet and Patagonia certainly is one of the first names that would pop into most people's heads. And, uh, I guess, do you think there's an aspect of like some brands thinking, oh, Patagonia's got that stitched up, so, well, we don't want to be too much, we don't want to be considered a Patagonia, uh, also ran, and like, you know, just, we don't want to be considered like, just trying to do what they're doing, but, second, like, is there an element of like, almost competition there that puts people off?

[00:16:06] Does that contribute to it at all? Or, like, I, I wonder, I

[00:16:10] Maddy Cooper: think maybe it is, but also most of them would be very keen to have their commercial success to be loved and feared in similar ways, um, and have their commercial success at all of those levels of long and short, short term gains. Um, But they don't know how to do it.

[00:16:32] So the massive gap is the, is really the marketing capability. People have been trained how to create campaigns and go about marketing, but they don't know how to do it for sustainability marketing. And agencies don't know either. So whereas marketing teams have always kind of deferred to their agencies and done what they, you know, they've gone with the agency's creative best.

[00:16:58] The vast majority of agencies do not have this kind of capability. And that's where, kind of, I think they want to kind of not be second. I think they would need to not do what Patagonia has done, but do their own version in an honest and creative way. But they do need their, their version of it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:19] Yeah, definitely.

[00:17:20] James Gill: It's, it's also fascinating because, you know, my background's from very much a small, a small business background, but I guess a lot of the challenge here as well is, is bringing in a lot of stakeholders to buy into a kind of a joined up. vision and plan and you, you know, I was just thinking a company the size of Unilever.

[00:17:40] And then you think about the number of agencies that probably work with someone the size of marketing to the people within the organizations and, uh, alignment there, which, you know, must. must be, I guess it kind of maybe relates a lot to what you're doing with the University of Cambridge, like the education, the motivation, like how you bring people on side internally, before you then take that message out to consumers and customers.

[00:18:06] Maddy Cooper: Yes, definitely. I think, you know, a couple of points you touched on in terms of being appealing to employees and to the talent attraction, that's a major problem for loads of organizations. Um, one in three, Gen Z people will have actively rejected employers based on their sustainability credentials. And it's reasonable to think that they are the critical thinking brightest of the bunch.

[00:18:34] So, there's a lot of people that aren't then in the table. Talent mix, um, to track. So again, it's a reason for communicating sustainability credentials really well to get, to get the right people. But to your point about like, okay, the challenge of it through Unilever and a really complicated organization, I eat whatever the size of organization.

[00:18:55] Um, the important thing is it being systemic and it being at the heart of the strategy. And that is really, really similar to digital transformation companies that thrive through digital transformation with the ones that either were the, you know, the, the, um, disruptors. So they were disabled and kind of fully disrupted or were the ones that really embraced it at the heart of the business.

[00:19:19] The companies and the ones that kind of engaged, but it was a little bit of a sort of a bolt on, it's a bit on the sidelines. It was sort of a department, but not at the center. They kind of fizzled, you know, they're like haven't thrived and it's really similar with sustainability. And that's where Unilever, although it is a, that's a beast of a task to get it to relate to every senior to junior person's job description and all of that connection and all the agencies doing that.

[00:19:49] from a really small company to a huge one, that they're the ones that are standing out with brilliant, um, commercial gains and the biggest actual environmental impact and social impact.

[00:20:02] James Gill: Yeah, yeah. Really, like, embracing it and taking it as an opportunity rather than, oh gosh, oh my gosh, there's this legislation coming in, we've got to comply with it, uh, get some intern to deal with that, yeah.

[00:20:17] The

[00:20:18] Maddy Cooper: sustainability department will fix it. No. Yeah, yeah. This is

[00:20:22] James Gill: the usual

[00:20:22] Maddy Cooper: class sustainability department. It can't be that.

[00:20:25] James Gill: Yeah, yeah. There's a term I know on the, on the tech side of things where we sort of say like security is everyone's job. I guess, you know, you could apply that to sustainability too, uh, for sure.

[00:20:37] I mean,

[00:20:38] Maddy Cooper: literally it's for everybody's survival.

[00:20:40] James Gill: Yeah, you know, it's kind of, we've all got a bit of a vested interest here, I think, yeah. Um, so I, I know you touched on this a bit, But, um, I guess getting actually getting marketers to engage in sustainability is in itself a specific challenge, like to just, you know, outside of all the other roles.

[00:21:01] And I guess there's many challenges there and that marketers are usually responsible for. making sure more people buy the thing and buy things from the company. Um, so I know you've done quite a lot of work here, right? There's, uh, the, the initiative marketing declares, so I wanted to make sure we had some time to hear about that.

[00:21:20] Be really

[00:21:21] Maddy Cooper: cool. So marketing declares is, is The marketing industry specific version of business declares. So I think most listeners have heard of business declares and they're really important work. And then there had been culture declares and architecture declares that, and the point is being that a movement to invoke the need for to galvanize a whole industry to show people what they can do better and differently, um, in ways specific to their kind of work.

[00:21:52] Yeah. I'm part of the, um, Beamer, um, sustainability council now co chair of that. And we were looking at creating this, um, marketing declaration. Um, and then I turned it into being this, this website, this marketing declares. com. Um, and the mission really is for everybody to kind of sign it. And then think about the declarer's mindset.

[00:22:17] So there's these key sort of pillars, um, to encourage people to really think about and reflect on. And then there's a whole toolkit. So there's loads of things, whether it be for small agencies or for clients directly, um, to enable people to, um, use, like, basically. Like all of the resources that are available to marketers, whether it be ultra low carbon website design, or, um, there should be, and we can add an ultra low carbon approach to email marketing.

[00:22:52] James Gill: You know, a coincidence around us. It

[00:22:55] Maddy Cooper: should be added. Definitely should be added. But the point is really that marketers should be able to do that. Um, great power and responsibility. And they have been, we have as a collective industry been culpable for encouraging consumption, like consumers. So the point of the marketing, uh, marketing declares is to enable marketers to think about how they can change the brief and encourage, um, Agencies and brands to think differently about the kind of behavior that they're encouraging, um, and the ramifications of that.

[00:23:31] So change, changing the brief and changing that consideration. And then even through actual marketing, create it, producing things in a lower carbon way. It's multifaceted. But yeah, so, um, be brilliant, do sign, get involved. It's just marksandclares. com. Um, but the kind of the key pillars are to lead the future.

[00:23:54] Great power, great responsibility, kind of when you know better, do better. So not hiding old stories under new initiatives and that sort of greed and switching, um, yeah, and start trying to kind of inspire a revolution of changing from within, within your agency or within your brand and, and, and making great, doing more good than harm.

[00:24:15] James Gill: I love that. I, it's such, um, I, I, I really love that because it's also such an influential thing when you think about like starting that initiative, but then impacting countless people in the marketing profession and then thinking about how many people they are responsible for impacting in their organizations and then consumers.

[00:24:39] It's like this tidal wave of. of, of impact that can be, be had. And as you, as you said, like with, as a marketer, you are responsible for communicating effectively to potentially tens of millions of people. And, and if, if those marketers have some of this in their mind, when they are creating campaigns, like the consumer behavior that can change is just phenomenal.

[00:25:06] I, I, it's, it's, it's, it's, Such a brilliant initiative and yeah, we'll definitely make sure that's linked to in the in the show notes so other people can can read more about that and hopefully sign up.

[00:25:18] Maddy Cooper: Thank you. One thing to consider with that is like the work that Flourish does is predominantly with the bigger brands, but what's theirs really is for everyone.

[00:25:27] So if there are kind of small businesses listening that will want access to all of the free tools that they are there. Or if there are any size of from small to large agencies, um, that are wanting to take action, the resources are there for them as well, or just the brands that Flourish doesn't work with, but they're just resources directly for the brand as well.

[00:25:47] So it's more for kind of taking, taking action.

[00:25:50] James Gill: Amazing. No, that's fantastic. Um, awesome. I, and, uh, I guess, so another thing you wanted to talk about though, Maddy, um, was also basically, I guess, related to this in that helping marketers be a bit more confident in how they communicate. About sustainability.

[00:26:09] So, you know a lot about this, I guess, so, uh, how, how do, how can, how are you making, helping to make people more confident about this? How are you helping people avoid the pitfalls of green hushing and, uh, being so fearful that, you know, I'd rather just not touch that topic and not talk about it at all.

[00:26:28] How, how are you, uh, helping to address that?

[00:26:32] Maddy Cooper: Well, so, um, I think it's really difficult to move from the old ways and business as usual, because that's what people are used to. And it's scary to take action because there is the threat of fines and government action and changing legislation if people do say the wrong thing.

[00:26:52] But that kind of stasis, that, that paralysis is not, it's not okay because we all know that there's no time to lose in. Helping to save this, this planet and making certain societies more equitable. So I think firstly, you have to start with a point of compassion that this is quite difficult, but the best, um, I think most supportive paths forward are, um, there's the system, there's a book called Sustainable Marketing.

[00:27:24] It's published by two people who are two of the main consultants for doing all the Flourish work, so Alexis Eyre and Paul Randall. It was published by Cogan Page last year. And, um, that's, it's a really, really, um, brilliant piece, um, hailed as like, The book to save marketing. So, you know, and there's also an open source sustainable marketing compass.

[00:27:51] So sustainable marketing compass. com and you can use that. And it's, it's a way of really mapping out everything that from a startup, very small or to huge organization can use the, that compass to map everything they're doing to the UN goals. And I think having a level of understanding, so the book plus that compass really gives a level of understanding that can give confidence because it sort of grounds stories of action into substance and into the structure of the UN goals.

[00:28:22] So there's, there's a, um, there's a framework I'm jumping off point. So they would be free or by and large free. And also, of course, the marketing, um, declares website has got a plethora of different tools on it. Um, one particular one, um, is the, um, guide to creating really low carbon websites. That's a particularly useful one.

[00:28:45] Um, and then the other thing would be the University of Cambridge. Um, Institute for Sustainable Leadership courses, whether the business ones or the marketing specific ones, they're really good. So of course you have to pay for those. Um, but ideally getting an employer to pay for them or make it, it's like a big career move.

[00:29:04] I think that's a really transformative journey that people, you know, starting the new cohort is sending that they sent in all of their papers, uh, today. And then they'll kind of reveal them all tomorrow. Um, and you see at the beginning. how people are and how they're thinking and then the journey that they go in, go through over those eight weeks, their understanding of sustainability and then their inspiration to take action and their confidence kind of, it's a really accelerated journey through those eight weeks.

[00:29:32] Yeah. I really would recommend that as well.

[00:29:35] James Gill: Wow. Yeah. I feel like if anyone's wondering where to start on this journey, they've come to the right place listening to this podcast, because there's all of the, all of the best resources you could possibly imagine there, buddy. Thank you for sharing those. And, um, yeah, I, uh, I, I, yeah, we'll make sure all of those are linked to as well, just so it's as easy as possible for people to, to take a next step.

[00:29:58] I, uh, I, um, I realized we're almost at like half an hour. So I don't want to, um, take more of your time than, than is necessary. But I guess one of the things I wanted to make sure we touched on, as if you haven't already offered enough, uh, inspiration and advice, but any, any more advice for others who, who want to move forward here, Maddy and, uh, Uh, make, make positive change.

[00:30:23] Maddy Cooper: I think, um, if people are, if people are in that transition point that you referenced at the beginning of like, moving away from a previous path to what do they want to do differently. I would really recommend a book called Creative Happy Work by Kat Biles. I think it's a really interesting way that the hypothesis that is that in all of us, there is a a business that we all want to offer to the world.

[00:30:52] Um, and so that's, I think, a really good one. And Win Without Pitching by Blair Owens is horribly misogynistic. It's all hee hee hee. But, so the first time I read it, I completely rejected it. I don't know, I got my head around it in an ungendered version, um, and, but the point is to ruthlessly specialize, like choose one thing that the plant is in society and business needs and just stand out and succeed by doing that, that one thing.

[00:31:21] And then of course, you know, as, as referenced, Martin declares has got useful things in it, but I think reading that sustainable marketing book is probably a, is like a really good Accelerator to talk about someone's knowledge. Yeah,

[00:31:35] James Gill: absolutely. I, um, I, that's, that's amazing. I, I feel like this has been such an inspiring episode, but also so practical because, like, anyone who's listening to this would be like, yeah, I want to do some stuff here.

[00:31:49] I want to make some change. You've got no excuse now. I've got no excuse to, I've got to go and read some more of this stuff, I've got to go and buy a few books here as well. Um, this is, uh, amazing Maddy, thank you so much. Was there anything else you wanted to share before I wrap up? Otherwise, uh

[00:32:07] Maddy Cooper: No, I don't think I want to add people's to do lists any further, but If anyone would like to get in touch or find me on LinkedIn or whatever with any kind of questions or reflections, then please let me know.

[00:32:19] I'm always, always happy to, uh, support.

[00:32:22] James Gill: Amazing. Thank you so much, Maddy. Yeah, it's been, been a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for so much inspiration and, and practical, uh, tips on what, what to do next. And, um, yeah, if anyone does want to, um, connect with Maddy, we will link to, uh, um, LinkedIn and, uh, Twitter, but we'll say.

[00:32:42] Flourishing, the website flourishingworld. com and uh, we'll make sure you can click that and link to that too. So thank you so much Maddie, it's been a pleasure chatting with you today. And you

[00:32:53] Maddy Cooper: too, thank you so much for having me.

[00:32:55] James Gill: Cheers Maddie, thank you. And uh, thank you everyone for tuning in, listening, watching, the next one.

[00:33:02] Really appreciate everyone who, who, uh, watches and listens to the show. Um, if you've enjoyed today's episode, please do let others know about it. Um, so we can share wonderful stories like Maddie's, uh, every, every time they come out and, uh, make sure more and more people, uh, join us in hopefully making the world a little bit better.

[00:33:21] So thank you for listening and we'll catch you next time.