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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:This episode continues the conversation from the previous episode and may contain difficult material. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 3:So, really, that's, I guess, is the next thing. How do you how do we transition from like, this is what high because I think I could talk about that all day just having someone who understands. Right? How do we go from high demand religion to cultiness generally even before we get to the specifics of your story?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I I think it just I I ugh. This is a challenge because if you look at the the bite model, a lot of high demand religions would the bite model of, like, what is a cult, a lot of high demand religions would be considered a cult by that model. But I think a lot of people who are in high demand religions would be really offended to find out that they were being viewed of viewed as a cult. Because a cult is often is often looked at as more like subsect, smaller, usually with some kind of charismatic leader, a lot of control tactics. Well, those of us who have been in high demand religion and have left it can look back and say, oh, it was a cult.
Speaker 1:Pretty easily, a lot a lot of people can because they're like, but I was controlled. What I wore, what I said, what I ate was controlled. All of that is kind of part of what makes it a cult. The reason that I specify diff like, differently between the two like, people can people can say that the church that I came from was a cult, and that's fine, and I'm not going to say that I've never said that, because by conversation with my wife in my home, there's a lot of talk where we're like, yes, we we were in a cult. But but when I specify that I was I was broken by the cults that that abused me, that trafficked me, is that their intention at their root was harm.
Speaker 1:And they knew that. They knew that they were just wanting to abuse children. Now I can't speak for the church leadership or the the anything whether they know that they're doing harm. I can't speak to that. But what I can say is that a bunch of the members, a lot of members, a lot of people whom I love and appreciate and value do not have harm in their hearts.
Speaker 1:They are not trying to be harmful. And so for me, that is kind of where I draw the distinction of what is occult in my life is who is surrounding me, people who are intending harm or people who are doing harm ignorantly. That's the difference. High demand religion is a bunch of ignorant people causing harm without even realizing it. Cults are people causing harm who intend it.
Speaker 1:And now I was part of that cult. I wasn't intending harm. I was a child. I was victimized. But the people at the top, they knew what they were doing.
Speaker 3:So These are such difficult conversations, I know. My my therapist is kind of, if I can say it without any puns intended, is kind of holding my feet to the fire on the cult language just for seeing clearly the exploitation and level of impact on me because I'm so wrestling with being able to justify, like, what you're saying. Like, my ballroom dance teachers, for example, were amazing, sweet people. And the people who have cared for supported our family in different ways have been amazing and kind people. And also, there has been a lot of harm.
Speaker 3:And systemically, there's an issue. And I know a colleague who talks about that piece that we can't excuse harm based on systemic oppression that causes harm. And it's so, so hard. But for listeners who don't know, I know what the BITE model is because I've done this in therapy and we've talked about it, but we have not talked about it explicitly on the podcast yet because it is that hard. Could you go ahead and explain the BITE model?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's the BITE model is the BITE model of authoritarian control by Stephen Hasson. He developed the Bite Model to describe a cult specific methods to recruit and maintain people to have control over. And and it just has it it just has some kind of it goes through your control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. And in order for it to be a cult, it has to do all those things.
Speaker 1:And but it only has to do, like, each of them to a certain degree. And I don't know. It's been a while since I've looked at it. But but so a lot of religion in general is going to do all those things. They're going to attempt to they are going to attempt to control your behavior for sure.
Speaker 1:That's usually that's usually what religion is is trying to do is control your behavior. They want you to do certain things. A lot of religions are also trying to control your thoughts and and change the way you think about things. A big piece is controlling your information because where you're getting your information definitely influences how you view yourself, how you view the world. It certainly did for me.
Speaker 1:I grew up and did not realize my level of privilege because of the information that was constantly fed to me. And once I became a teacher, my world shifted. And I was like, oh, there is a lot more to the world than what I realized because my information was so controlled. Where I got information was so controlled. And then, of course, the emotional piece is is probably the one that's the hardest for me to talk about just because my emotions were always, always what kept me kept me under behavior information and thought control.
Speaker 1:They appealed to my emotions, and that is how that's what got me there.
Speaker 3:I think I experienced that with shiny happy, there's a lot of, like, no evolution, creation being literal and quick and automatic. Like, even if you have a faith understanding of God or a deity or a creator that, like, it's not my business how he did it. Right? Just has to be in this, like, oh, you've only got twelve hours and the job is done. Right?
Speaker 3:So, like, there's lots of things like that. But also, I'm one of those people who was studying in my high demand religion later as an adult, studying and studying, studying, trying to learn, trying to understand, and wrestling with hard things like sexuality and trying to understand and reading. Like, we were not allowed outside of church literature. They call it anti, if you read outside church literature. But I'm one of the people that when they released the gospel topic essays, that I studied those and I read those and the footnotes.
Speaker 3:And I'm one of the people, even before I found anything online, I was like, these people have been lying to me and facing truths that they're now saying, oh, this is what was history and this was what is history, but that had not at all been taught to me. And then having to go, okay, so what did happen? And going to literal historical, like not anti, but literal historical sites or information or, oh, this actually came from there. What just happened? And feeling so not just foolish for having taken everything as it was given to me, again, without that critical thinking, but also so betrayed and then mourning that over again.
Speaker 1:Yes. But I do want to be clear. Even if you're going to accurate historical sources that are not trying to tear the church down, it would still be considered anti if it has a different message than what the church is giving. Because that's what I was taught. You don't go outside of the church.
Speaker 1:The church is giving you the information. Why don't you trust the church? You need to get the information from the church. And there there was just I I was even though I'm a I'm a naturally curious person, it never even occurred to me to go find answers. It never occurred to me that I was missing anything.
Speaker 1:I was their target audience because I didn't I I didn't question the history of the church as it was presented to me. I didn't have any reason to. And, I mean, I understand now that because of just how big social media is and just how much information is out there, I understand that people who are in the church now are probably experiencing a lot more anti being surrounding surrounding them than they ever have before. Because in all truth, I would be considered an anti source because I have left the church and have removed removed my records from them, and so now I would be considered an apostate. So anything I had to say would be anti even though I'm like, I'm not trying to tear your church down.
Speaker 1:I just want to say it harmed me. It harmed me.
Speaker 3:Right. I think and then and then what happens is if if you read any of these things, even when I only read the gospel topic essays, I'm like, this is what it says. And then there's this layer of gaslighting that happens of, you have missed the mark. Didn't miss the mark. This is what it says, like in black and white explicitly.
Speaker 3:And so I want to circle like, so again, that betrayal piece of, like, I literally did nothing wrong, and this is the outcome. When we're talking about the difference between high demand and cults, I want to come back to something you just said about leaving the church and having to remove your records. This is a piece my partner said. I don't know if it's aired on the podcast for listeners yet or not, but my partner has said several times because I need to keep hearing it, unfortunately, that if I have to go to an attorney or to a notary to send a letter asking to be removed and the fact that it's not actually removed, just notated, that's a problem. Like most clubs or churches, if you just want to move your records, you can move your records.
Speaker 3:This is like just as far as why we're talking about red flags, that that's an issue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. I wanna quit the gym.
Speaker 3:That you can't actually if you can't actually leave something, you're also not choosing to stay. It is happening to you.
Speaker 1:Right. And so for my own self, I would definitely I I definitely would refer to my high demand religion as a cult because it does follow, under the bite model. It definitely does, count as a cult, that definitely, is hard when I have people I love who are still in that religion and still believe it to be the only truth. Absolutely.
Speaker 3:It's so heartbreaking in in the how it becomes a divisive issue rather than literally the healing I thought I was getting into.
Speaker 1:Yes. Well and I think what's tricky is is because I was the child who everyone looked up to as this kind of, like, shining pinnacle of churchy goodness. And then I left, and that was just devastating ripples through my family. And they did all the things then that I used to do to my father and my mother, both of whom I just have to say have returned to the church.
Speaker 3:But
Speaker 1:I I just I did all the things that they did, you know, like, all of the like, I'm gonna send you this concerned letter. I'm just gonna I'm gonna tell you that I love you no matter what your choices are. All these things now, they've done these same things to me. And it's so interesting now from the outside looking in because I can literally understand their experience because I have been through it. They have no comprehension of mine.
Speaker 3:It's so It's so hard because what I want to say is this is not healthy for me, so I need to step away and be healthy. Yes. But what they hear is that I am rejecting my opportunity to even be close to God, even if I don't qualify to be closest to God and putting my whole family at risk. And so I go from being, like you said, shiny pinnacle to the enemy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Black sheep.
Speaker 3:Okay. So all of that's been fun and hard enough. But aside from high demand religion and the cult aspects of that, there are also like culty aspects. Like there's lots of podcasts and jokes about that, like a little bit culty things like that, that are, okay, Wow. That's intense.
Speaker 3:The bite model, that's okay. There are other assessments we'll be talking about on the podcast in coming months. But aside from that, there are also splinter groups, and this happens in a lot of religions, like splinter groups that, become either political or dangerous or trafficking or all kinds of things where it is a whole separate flavor of things and not sanctioned. Like you could do this with almost any religion. I know great evangelicals that do their thing and their worship and their church and are not shiny happy.
Speaker 3:I have friends who are Muslim and that does not make them dangerous. There are like lovely neighbors that I have who are in high demand religion who are not trying to trick my children into going to services they don't want to go to. So there's that. But there's also splinter groups like, more fundamentalist groups or more groups like you're talking about in your experience that are cults. And when we talk about cults with ISSTD, they refer to it as OEA, organized extreme abuse, where it is something.
Speaker 3:It used to be Ramcoa, like ritual abuse, mind control, and organized abuse. Now they say OEA, and I'm just throwing these terms out partly to transition and partly to be really specific that this is, like in your case, connected to a greater experience, but really specific and separate from, and also very specific dynamics that can show up in lots of different ways. So that kind of cult that's completely separate, even if it's incorporating language, like how would you explain that? There are things like ceremonies. There are things like ritual.
Speaker 3:How would you define cult specific aside from the religious trauma context? Well,
Speaker 1:I don't I'm not sure exactly. I I mean, the it's a group that is that that's designed specifically to harm and silence its victims is a whole extra piece. But what I will say is they they choose to create their extreme controlling abusive groups out of a high demand religion, because in a high demand religion, they have a lot of people who have, and forgive me, I'm going to use a hot topic word, but they have been groomed to be controlled. And that's why a lot of these groups exist as subsex or splintered groups off of high demand religions because in a lot of ways, what they're gaining is easy prey. And that's icky, but it's also the experience of a lot of splintered groups who are particularly if they are like a fundamentalist group or just extremists of any kind.
Speaker 1:They they are their their intention the intention of the group I was in was to abuse children. That's what they wanted to do. And so they came up with a lot of ways why it was okay religiously to do that. And and they were able to find us and victimize us because we were already over halfway there because of the religion we were in. And I think a lot of people who end up in these kinds of cults were already predisposed for it because of the other experiences in their life.
Speaker 3:That's such a hard piece. Just sitting with the grooming piece, I felt that to my core. And I know that's something we've referenced in therapy, need to dig into more in therapy, but it is absolutely true. That's what I mean when I say high demand religion appropriated my vulnerability from shiny happy, that I had already been groomed. I know how to perform fawning.
Speaker 3:I know how to be good at being good to be safe. Yes. And so if the threat I need to be safe from is being separated from God or separated from my family, those literally or metaphorically are core traumas already in me before the church ever found me.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Having a history of trauma and abuse where I am told to do the things, whether I like it or not or I'm comfortable with it or not, when I am told to participate in things that harm me and the harm will only be worse if I don't. Like, these are hard things we're talking about. And it includes sort of that trance logic of there's not actually a way to say no. And the grooming aspect of making what is not okay appear to be okay enough. Right.
Speaker 3:But it's not when there's harm. It's not okay for us to be hurt or for vulnerability to be exploited.
Speaker 1:Right. So if you don't mind, I'd like to read the first passage of my book. My book is written in verse. So it's written in a poetry form, but it's still, it's still a narrative that has a beginning and an end. But I was just gonna, if you don't mind, I'll read the first passage, because it actually relates to exactly what we're talking about to this piece, to this grooming piece, to the exploitation of vulnerability, and to the idea of making things seem right even when they're not right.
Speaker 2:Please.
Speaker 1:Okay. The first first passage is called the holy Josephic priesthood. I am a virgin of the high Josephic priesthood, walking the path of the righteous. Obedience and sweetness drape my shoulders and veil my head. Swaddled and unfolded in a blanket of specialness, I keep my eyes on the ground.
Speaker 1:You're like a princess, I'm told in a whisper. I'm anointed. I'm appointed to be someone's virgin wife for only tonight. You're a beautiful bride. The white drape over my face leads me to believe them.
Speaker 1:I am beautiful. I am a virgin. I am blessed and special and sacred. I am six years old.
Speaker 3:So powerful. And so so violating not not just the age of the abuse, but that none of the things we're being told are true.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly. And I think that's how, as I was in a high demand religion, with neglectful parents. And, and I was an easy victim to then pull into what I consider to be a different form of church, which was this abusive circle. And all of that, all of the whole combination of all of that created the et al system, which I am the host of. And, and we are a system of many parts, many, many parts, and many of them are small children who were abused in the Holy Josephic Priesthood.
Speaker 2:This conversation will be continued in the next episode. Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing.