Divine Guidance with Dr. Paul Moser

PJ and Dr. Paul Moser discuss how God's seeks to guide humanity to develop moral rapport and how such divine guidance offers a helpful way to explore the existence of God.

Show Notes

<p>In this episode of the Chasing Leviathan podcast, PJ and Dr. Paul Moser discuss an oft overlooked aspect of God within philosophical and theological discourse: God's guidance. Dr. Moser argues that God seeks to lead people to develop moral rapport, and that this rapport may actually provide good reason for belief in God.</p> 

<p>For a deep dive into Dr. Paul Moser's work, check out his book: Divine Guidance (Elements in the Problems of God) 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1009269704</p>

<p>Check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com</p> 

<p>Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.</p> 

<p>These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.</p>

<p>Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.</p>

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj_wehry]: oh hello and welcome to chasing leviathan
i'm here today with dr paul moser professor

[pj_wehry]: of philosophy at the loyola university of
chicago and this is the point where i

[pj_wehry]: normally showed the book but i got
to enkindle so here kendall

[paul_moser]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: the book we're talking about today is
divine guidance from the elements and the problems

[pj_wehry]: of god series from cambridge university press
r moser wonderful to have you today

[paul_moser]: thank you p j

[pj_wehry]: and so kind of as we just
get started i know that you have a

[pj_wehry]: kind of long and storied career in
these kind of areas but tell us a

[pj_wehry]: little bit why this book in particular

[paul_moser]: ever since i was about fifteen years
old i've been haunted by the question of

[paul_moser]: what would evidence of god look like
because

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: i had evidence from religious experience but
i still wanted to know the heart of

[paul_moser]: that was what that religious experience included
that made it evidence of god in particular

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: a god worthy of worship and so
i started looking for an answer to the

[pj_wehry]: excuse

[paul_moser]: question

[pj_wehry]: me

[paul_moser]: of what would evidence of god look
like if it's in evidence of god will

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: you naturally look to what various theologians
and philosophers have said and so that led

[paul_moser]: me into taking up philosophy uh in
college and then graduate school with the common

[paul_moser]: and enduring background question of what would
evidence of god actually be and in addition

[paul_moser]: do we have such evidence well since
i'm fairly slow it took me a long

[pj_wehry]: uh

[paul_moser]: time to put some of

[pj_wehry]: h

[paul_moser]: pieces of

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: the puzzle together and they've come together
should always say piece meal and i tried

[paul_moser]: to

[pj_wehry]: ye

[paul_moser]: crystalize some of the key views in
this book on divine guidance because in the

[paul_moser]: end i think that a god worthy
of worship would want to be a good

[paul_moser]: lord over humans and lordship there means
leadership and so you're at the door of

[paul_moser]: guidance because leadership as i understand it
would be un coerced guidance

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: and this is echoed i think throughout
not only the palms but parts of the

[paul_moser]: new testament indeed paul says at one
point that those who are children god are

[paul_moser]: those who are led guided by god
well what's this leading guiding stuff it's widely

[paul_moser]: neglected at least in the academic theology
and philosophy literature right including philosophy of religion

[paul_moser]: so i figured well maybe this is
something crucial that's been overlooked and i would

[paul_moser]: say that it is indeed in the
divine guidance book is an effort to spell

[paul_moser]: out what it would be for god
to offer evidence of god towards the end

[paul_moser]: of guiding people and i claim now
that what god would want above all is

[paul_moser]: moral report with people where moral report
is

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: similar to what paul calls communion god
in second corinthians um sometimes the word fellowship

[paul_moser]: is used but i like the word
report because it suggests interaction and

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: inter personal

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: interaction

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: at that and so i claim

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: the heart of the evidence

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: we need for god is not the
abstract stuff natural theology the first cause arguments

[paul_moser]: the design arguments the fine tuning arguments
ontological i claim that's all too abstract for

[paul_moser]: the kind of god who was sought
by abraham isaac jacob and paul i claim

[paul_moser]: that god is one who would want
to guide people as their lord with whom

[paul_moser]: they have what i call moral

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: report

[pj_wehry]: i definitely feel like i can understand
the report part of that m can you

[pj_wehry]: comment a little bit on why you're
adding moral to that is that just that

[pj_wehry]: it is good or that it has
to do with the moral dimension because i

[pj_wehry]: remember you reference bober um uh somewhere
in here talking about

[paul_moser]: m

[pj_wehry]: not losing that god is not only
the ethical dimension

[paul_moser]: yes that's a key question and the
answer comes in what i claim is a

[paul_moser]: word central to all of the important
biblical narratives and that word

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: is righteousness

[pj_wehry]: m m m

[paul_moser]: god

[pj_wehry]: o

[paul_moser]: is continually described as righteous throughout the
hebrew bible and in the central writings of

[paul_moser]: the new testament it's god's righteousness that
distinguishes god makes god unique and lo and

[paul_moser]: behold it's what god wants to show
and enact through humans ezekiel says isaiah suggest

[paul_moser]: as much and paul talks about the
righteousness god in christ in us in the

[paul_moser]: followers and so i claim that god
would have at the heart of any kind

[paul_moser]: of communion with humans

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: any kind of fellowship the maintenance and
promotion of god's unique character of divine righteousness

[paul_moser]: now i think that's what morality for
the biblical accounts is all about namely bringing

[paul_moser]: divine righteousness into the life of wayward
humans and that big question becomes how do

[paul_moser]: you get that and of course the
biblical writers are quite astute on this beginning

[paul_moser]: with genesis where adam and eve are
portrayed as having a problem with god because

[paul_moser]: they think god is withholding

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: something good from them indeed

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: including making one wise genesis three says
that that eve thought that um eating of

[paul_moser]: the fruit of the tree of knowledge
and good evil would make one wise well

[paul_moser]: as if god had failed on that
front in other words the way to become

[paul_moser]: wise is to disobey god that's the

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: gist of what he was saying and
uh genesis three and then god has to

[paul_moser]: do something to challenge this nonsense and
so god sets up the fiery protection for

[paul_moser]: the a tree of the tree of
life and says you know you people have

[paul_moser]: to have a break from this setting
but i need to protect people coming to

[paul_moser]: this completely valuable knowledge by the wrong
means

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: not by the means of even adam
but by the right means and you get

[paul_moser]: a story about this when you get
to abraham because there god reckons righteousness to

[paul_moser]: abraham by what not by his creating
his own way of wit dem not by

[paul_moser]: following eve but as paul says in
romans four as genesis says he trusted god

[paul_moser]: he

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: didn't distrust

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: he didn't say oh maybe god

[pj_wehry]: ye

[paul_moser]: is withholding something good and so in
other words heve sides with the serpent and

[paul_moser]: distrusting god abraham starts the renewal by
saying god even though i have no idea

[paul_moser]: how you're going to work this out
in fact it's laughable i'm still going to

[paul_moser]: trust you and so that notion of
righteousness participating in god's character becomes the very

[paul_moser]: heart of what the biblical goal is
and when you get to matthew's gospel representing

[paul_moser]: jesus righteousness is all over it seek

[pj_wehry]: right

[paul_moser]: first the kingdom and its righteousness

[pj_wehry]: ah

[paul_moser]: unless your righteousness exceeds that of the
pharisees forget about it and so again and

[paul_moser]: paul is just all over this in
the romans right the whole thing is about

[paul_moser]: righteousness and how you get it and
how you don't and so what i'm claiming

[paul_moser]: is that's at the heart of report
because it's in that righteousness that you have

[paul_moser]: what's called life with god that's where
life

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: with god is an edition and here's
what a lot of people miss that's also

[paul_moser]: aware evidence for god's reality and goodness
is in that righteousness and so the question

[paul_moser]: is well where do you find that
that's a nice talk sounds kind of uplifting

[paul_moser]: and all that it's just so much
talk and i want to say wait a

[paul_moser]: minute it's not if we reflect properly
we find something called the battle ground of

[paul_moser]: the conscience that's what i call it
in the guidance book that were god is

[paul_moser]: that work um most clearly in humans
and trying to work as they frustrate them

[paul_moser]: as they suppress the truth is in
what we call conscience and of course

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: it's the the thing we suppress we
suppress it constantly we try to push it

[paul_moser]: away we're too busy for it i
claim that that's where the most salient evidence

[paul_moser]: of god is to be found outside
jesus outside

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: the life of jesus and paul confirms
this in romans five where he says hoping

[paul_moser]: and believing in god they don't disappoint
us they don't leave us ashamed or embarrassed

[paul_moser]: because god's a copy has been poured
out into our hearts through the holy spirit

[paul_moser]: where heart for paul includes conscience that's
what paul is trying to point to here

[paul_moser]: that within us and paul can even
say in romans nine that what i'm testifying

[paul_moser]: to is confirmed

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: in conscience by the spirit of god
and so paul thinks of this thing that

[paul_moser]: we call the conscience as loaded with
god's activity nudge us toward becoming the children

[paul_moser]: of god and entering into what he
calls the glory of the freedom of the

[paul_moser]: children

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: of god

[pj_wehry]: which can only come through that liberation
of conscience

[paul_moser]: that's right that

[pj_wehry]: right

[paul_moser]: god remakes the conscience by coming to
it but here's the hitch he doesn't make

[paul_moser]: us manipulated pawns we have to co
operate now here's where a lot of people

[paul_moser]: have been frightened in the past we
co operate are you bringing in to work

[paul_moser]: are you staying

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: in and then that it's by works

[pj_wehry]: oh ah

[paul_moser]: this is just the biggest distortion you
can find in theology that's somehow obedience is

[paul_moser]: a work in paul's technical sense romans
four

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: paul tells us what this technical sense
of work is and it's an earning it's

[paul_moser]: something that would make god indebted or
obligated to

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: redeem us but obedience doesn't do that
obedience is a response to the good that

[paul_moser]: god has brought into our lives has
nothing to do with earning people have collapsed

[paul_moser]: the notion of anything active anything even
suggesting obedience with a work and they've said

[paul_moser]: that can't fit with grace that's a
huge distortion

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: of divine grace just huge and it
had such a damper understanding what the good

[paul_moser]: news is and how to receive it
so i'm trying to revitalize the biblical notion

[paul_moser]: of responding in obedience to god's will
in the way that jesus did he talks

[paul_moser]: explicitly about entering the kingdom only by
doing the will of father and that's obedience

[paul_moser]: and it's at the heart of what

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: trusting god is

[pj_wehry]: um m and forgive me i like
the mental kind of concrete examples and so

[pj_wehry]: what i think you're talking about here
is there's

[paul_moser]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: that

[paul_moser]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: obvious idea of someone gives you a
task to do and you do it and

[pj_wehry]: you get paid right that's what we
think of as a job and then think

[pj_wehry]: right now my parents are out of
town on vacation we live in a multigenerational

[pj_wehry]: house and my dad is paying the
boys to watch the dogs um they are

[pj_wehry]: somewhat response for the dogs they are
five and seven not very responsible to be

[pj_wehry]: quite frank we're the ones who are
taking care of the dogs right

[paul_moser]: but

[pj_wehry]: but

[paul_moser]: not getting the money

[pj_wehry]: right right exactly like

[paul_moser]: uh

[pj_wehry]: how does anyways

[paul_moser]: uh m

[pj_wehry]: but

[paul_moser]: h

[pj_wehry]: if you ask my son did he
work for that even though he's not really

[pj_wehry]: capable he would say he worked for
it but even that i think is different

[pj_wehry]: from this idea of life some of
h let's say you're short on rent and

[pj_wehry]: a family member like drives up to
your house and says hey i have the

[pj_wehry]: money can you come out and get
it now for whatever reason and you come

[pj_wehry]: out and you get the money and
then someone's like well did you work for

[pj_wehry]: that and you're like well i did
walk outside and i took the money so

[paul_moser]: yes

[pj_wehry]: yes i worked for it and that's
that

[paul_moser]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: it seems to really destroy the whole
sense of work there is that

[paul_moser]: it does

[pj_wehry]: is that a good example what we're
talking about

[paul_moser]: it is it is so it's your
birthday to day suppose

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: and you open your door and

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: there's this massive gift sitting there right
at the front

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: door and

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: you say wait i'm not gonna because
if i do it's not a gift it's

[paul_moser]: something

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: that i've earned wait a minute receiving

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: a gift can include

[pj_wehry]: s

[paul_moser]: shall we say responding to it appropriately
and so

[pj_wehry]: yes

[paul_moser]: when god intervenes in a human life
say through conscience

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: with you know leading me

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: away from being too harsh to a
sibling or rude to a neighbor or whatever

[paul_moser]: when god leads me away from that
in conscious and i respond with deeper

[pj_wehry]: ah

[paul_moser]: obedience that's not intended to earn anything
it's intended

[pj_wehry]: i

[paul_moser]: to co operate with god in the
goodness given as a gift given as grace

[paul_moser]: there's no um meriting or there's no
conflict with grace there but it is astonishing

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: how many theologians including new testament theologians
stay away from that important idea of voluntary

[paul_moser]: reception of a gift co operating with
god for fear that they might somehow curb

[paul_moser]: or put a crimp on grace it's
just a conceptual confusion that i think has

[paul_moser]: hindered large parts of the christian church

[pj_wehry]: understandably um

[paul_moser]: and then notice what falls out of
this if this has a role in faith

[paul_moser]: this kind of co operation obedience then
jesus and paul fit together perfectly people have

[paul_moser]: often wondered well what's with jesus all
on about obedience

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: obeying doing but paul he's all on
about faith for this that they fit perfectly

[paul_moser]: because there is something called the obedience
of faith where paul

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: uses that in romans twice the idea
is that there's an inherent part of faith

[paul_moser]: that is co operative with god it
says yes and so paul can even talk

[paul_moser]: about obeying the gospel in thessalonians it's
something to be obeyed so when jesus says

[paul_moser]: repent and believe in the good news
in mark to start as ministry there's a

[paul_moser]: call to obedience right there but it's
all so a call to faith as trust

[paul_moser]: trust in god that this is good
news and so what we're getting then in

[paul_moser]: jesus is a kind of re invigorating
of the promise to abraham where it's through

[paul_moser]: this kind of trust that god wants
to bless all nations all families

[pj_wehry]: m absolutely and you've talked little bit
about this god's that god's righteousness specifically in

[pj_wehry]: this guidance to our conscience is evidence
what what are the tinuityes discontinuities between your

[pj_wehry]: argument here and kind of the historical
moral argument for god's existence

[paul_moser]: yeah the historical moral argument is an
argument and see i'm trying to get away

[paul_moser]: from this idea that the way we
come to god is by saying

[pj_wehry]: ye

[paul_moser]: okay premise one premise two premise three
therefore conclusion i'm saying that's the wrong way

[paul_moser]: to look at it instead what happens
is what i would call an inter personal

[paul_moser]: meeting and inter person acquaintance and that
happens deep within conscience whenever we take conscience

[paul_moser]: seriously that's not an argument it's one
agent meeting another where god's nudged in god's

[paul_moser]: prodding god's gentle pressure sometimes not

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: quite so gentle but

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: it's not coercive not coerce can keep
you up all night but it's it's a

[paul_moser]: place where one will meets another will
and that's more basic than any argument inter

[paul_moser]: personal acquaintance is what you might invoke
to support a premise but it's not a

[paul_moser]: premise it's not an intellectual formation of
a statement and so the traditional arguments kind

[paul_moser]: of keep god at arm's length i
say here's my first premise here's my second

[paul_moser]: premise now i'm going to draw our
conclusion wait a minute people aren't being acquainted

[paul_moser]: with god when they're reflecting on the
premises of an argument they're thinking about statements

[paul_moser]: and how an inference from the premises
leads to the conclusion well where's god god

[paul_moser]: isn't an argument god isn't an inference
i'm trying to put the focus where i

[paul_moser]: think the apostle paul put it where
i think jesus put it before him and

[paul_moser]: where i think many of the prophets
put it to isaiah jeremiah zekiel they and

[paul_moser]: direct acquaintance with god of the kind
akin to moses when when moses says in

[paul_moser]: excess god show me your glory and
god says okay i'll give you a run

[paul_moser]: at it and then what happens god
shows god's goodness

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: moses it's a remarkable passage moses wants
the glory and then god says my goodness

[paul_moser]: will pass by which is a profound
statement to identify the power and glory of

[paul_moser]: god with the moral goodness of god
that's utterly profound especially given a lot of

[paul_moser]: theology in ancient times well and that's
what john's gospel is trying to do to

[paul_moser]: take the glory of god and put
it in self sacrificing jesus you want to

[paul_moser]: see the glory look at him on
the cross and it should we say shifts

[paul_moser]: the terms of what it is to
be divine glory and so no argument needed

[paul_moser]: here

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: even a child could have that kind
of acquaintance with god and say you want

[paul_moser]: an argument from me sorry i can't
give it but that doesn't harm my evidence

[paul_moser]: my evidence is this inter personal acquaintance
that is on going in a life and

[paul_moser]: that's where the assurance comes

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: by god continuing to display god's goodness
if if we're attentive to it but we

[paul_moser]: do have a role to play here
we are not mere pawns in some kind

[paul_moser]: of chess game and we see that
by the way even in the like a

[paul_moser]: job where god sends up sets up
a test believe it or not god is

[paul_moser]: the one who got job into all
that trouble

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: god says hey ah

[pj_wehry]: ah yeah

[paul_moser]: he deceiver he my adversary check out
my follower job here and see what he's

[paul_moser]: worth and you want to say don't
do that god

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: this is going to destroy

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: and you know you don't want god
to say that about you just the adversary

[paul_moser]: check out this so job takes upon
himself this reflection on well things have gone

[paul_moser]: from bad to worse what's wrong with
my life and all of his friends have

[paul_moser]: answers you know the answers philosophers would
give god eventually shows up says you know

[paul_moser]: shut up guys you know what you're
talking about and job job meets god

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: and says you know i've now seen
god i've now had an acquaintance with god

[paul_moser]: he doesn't mean visual seeing

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: and then he can say now i
can trust him even if even if i

[paul_moser]: end up daustrayed in this that's where
the biblical evidence for god wants to take

[paul_moser]: us not to this do i have
another refinement on this argument it's where do

[paul_moser]: i now stand face to face with
god if we don't take people there they

[paul_moser]: won't get the message and that's why
jesus is so enigmatic i mean he doesn't

[paul_moser]: come on the scene and just give
you the standard think about this he's evasive

[paul_moser]: he's elusive he's trying to get the
conscience of his audience where they will be

[paul_moser]: struck by wait a minute maybe god
is my father maybe god is and now

[paul_moser]: what i think that's what jesus wanted
to do and it's awfully hard to do

[paul_moser]: and look where it got him yeah
it may get you killed

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: um but the point is he says
that this is the way you pursue his

[paul_moser]: father and i think that's what the
sermon on the mount is really about how

[paul_moser]: is it that you position yourself respond
to god and jesus seemed to call it

[paul_moser]: purity of heart and by that he
meant sharing in god's goodness because as he

[paul_moser]: said only god is good

[pj_wehry]: yeah um thank you and just a
really beautiful summation of what we've been talking

[pj_wehry]: about so far it definitely seems like
i think the attraction of the moral argument

[pj_wehry]: which is also its danger is that
it puts us in control which is very

[pj_wehry]: much uh antithetical to what we started
with talking about god wants to exhibit good

[pj_wehry]: lordship which you define is leadership and
un coerced guidance if you don't mind i

[pj_wehry]: did want to ask where do you
you've talked a little about seeing that in

[pj_wehry]: palms and paul but can you talked
a little bit because i feel like especially

[pj_wehry]: in philosophy definitions are really important and
the idea of leadership as uncoerced guidance dey

[pj_wehry]: definitely seems controversial so can you argue

[paul_moser]: ship

[pj_wehry]: for that a little bit or at
least discuss that a little bit

[paul_moser]: yeah there i have in mind just
the continuing theme throughout the hebrew bible that

[paul_moser]: god is the one who leads in
paths of righteousness palm

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: twenty three one of the most remarkable

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: pieces of literature

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: ever produced

[pj_wehry]: m oh

[paul_moser]: and the profundity

[pj_wehry]: oh no

[paul_moser]: of it comes in that shift from
the third person to the second person so

[paul_moser]: god is the one who makes me
lie down in green pastures who leads me

[paul_moser]: beside the still waters who stores my
soul mean paths of righteousness but then what

[paul_moser]: happens then what happens well then even
if i walk through the valley

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: the shadow of death i will fear
no evil i because thou art with

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: me notice that shift to the second
person something profound is happening there and that's

[paul_moser]: where the desired guidance comes from not
from okay give me the information book give

[paul_moser]: me the instruction book and i'll be
okay god no it's second person thou art

[paul_moser]: with me and the psalmist goes on
to talk about god in the second person

[paul_moser]: until the end that is a profound
shift that shows just the depth of that

[paul_moser]: palmist and you get the same thing
um m in jesus in the in the

[paul_moser]: lord's prayer right where you get thy
kingdom come thy

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: will be done and guess where that
comes from gessemini because it's in guessemini where

[paul_moser]: jesus says i really need to plan
be here father this is not looking good

[paul_moser]: at all and then shifts to butt
but your will be done not mine and

[paul_moser]: so the kind of guidance i'm talking
about here he is second person toward god

[paul_moser]: and god speaking to us in the
second person and the key with that kind

[paul_moser]: of guidance is it's inherently rejectable indeed
even jesus considered saying you know this cross

[paul_moser]: idea looked good and i've predicted it
three times in the gospel of mark but

[paul_moser]: know now that i'm on top of
this i don't really like this

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: you know jerusalem is

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: not looking good at all while his
disciples had fallen asleep

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: luke says he had been sweating

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: blood

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: over this he was so frightened of
what was coming but he resorts to this

[paul_moser]: i won't reject this i won't

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: i will

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: say your will first and so if
you take that away that rejectable challenge from

[paul_moser]: god

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: we become mere manipulated pawns and that
is not

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: what we are portrayed to be by

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: all the biblical injunctions consider all the
commands fear not don't do this we are

[paul_moser]: not treated as manipulated pawns we are
held accountable for how we respond abraham is

[paul_moser]: praised for his response paul says in
romans for he didn't cringing

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: disobedience but with resolve trusted god's promise
jesus praisus people for receiving his word in

[paul_moser]: the parable the sower uh in mark's
gospel to begin with in luke's gospel it's

[paul_moser]: explicit about the good heart of a
person responding to the word m paul talks

[paul_moser]: about it in romans where god meets
resistance but holds out his hands to a

[paul_moser]: disobedient and stubborn

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: people god is seeking for people to
use their will to comply and that's what

[paul_moser]: voluntary response is to this kind of
uncoerced un coerce guidance take that away and

[paul_moser]: you've got um sham of a story
where there's coercion and none of it makes

[paul_moser]: sense everything becomes just unintelligible

[pj_wehry]: so even as i'm listening here and
i'm thinking about your distinction between what you're

[pj_wehry]: doing here and the moral argument i
can't help be struck by kind of the

[pj_wehry]: on going argument about what evil is
between for instance plato's definition that basically if

[pj_wehry]: people know the good they will do
the good and then it's very

[paul_moser]: uh

[pj_wehry]: clear in the bible

[paul_moser]: uh

[pj_wehry]: that like people the good and they
choose not to do it

[paul_moser]: oh

[pj_wehry]: anyways u

[paul_moser]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: and so in some ways that seems
as you're talking about becoming these ponds these

[pj_wehry]: robots that

[paul_moser]: m

[pj_wehry]: the idea is well if we just

[paul_moser]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: knew to do good we would do
it and really that element of choice

[paul_moser]: m

[pj_wehry]: is plays a central role here what
is you've talked quite a bit about will

[pj_wehry]: and choice and the conscience what is
the relationship between those two things

[paul_moser]: yeah i think there's an intimate relationship
and by the way on the oars or

[paul_moser]: weakness of will i don't think plato
held that all his life for one thing

[paul_moser]: we know that aristotle refuted the view
aristotle roundly rig i i and in some

[paul_moser]: of the later works it seems that
plato has moved away from what may have

[paul_moser]: been a socratic view that that if
you know the good you'll do the good

[paul_moser]: and as you know in roman seven
paul i just has none of that i

[paul_moser]: mean

[pj_wehry]: all right

[paul_moser]: you know

[pj_wehry]: right

[paul_moser]: the good that i would do i
don't i mean paul

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: is is clear that the knowledge can
be in place but the will need not

[paul_moser]: be the interesting thing about cons and
is that i think it's as interactive as

[paul_moser]: typical action so that i think that
you can be presented with something in conscience

[paul_moser]: and choose to sup and paul talks
about suppressing or holding down the truth of

[paul_moser]: god and romans and i think you
can do that in conscience you can you

[paul_moser]: can take what is suggested to you
either ignore it or outright oppose it and

[paul_moser]: paul then in his references to the
conscience and there are several clear ones is

[paul_moser]: urging people to pay attention to their
conscience in a way that cool operates with

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: god's spirit because he says that god's
spirit can confirm things through conscience

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: and so it's a place where we
are still agents yes

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: we can be interrupted even at three
a m with conscience but we can respond

[paul_moser]: as we see fit and a lot
of times you know i really would like

[paul_moser]: to eat my vengeance cold and get
my

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: vengeance on somebody and

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: and you know i can go against
god's will for that and i mean shame

[paul_moser]: on me when i do but let's
ace the

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: fact that we are very good

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: at telling stories to get around the
hard demands especially when they involve things like

[paul_moser]: enemy love i love my enemy come
on let me get paid back first and

[paul_moser]: then we'll talk about it so i'm
active even there and that's because god has

[paul_moser]: given in prevenient grace human agency god

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: wants report with agents in god's image
not machines not something that

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: god is simply caused to come about
including in decisions that isn't an inter personal

[paul_moser]: relation that would be just an extension
of god's own will and so there's none

[paul_moser]: of that in jesus or in paul's
writing because they're loaded with injunctions to

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: us to respond in a certain way

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: and acknowledging that we can respond um
and so we have to take that utterly

[paul_moser]: seriously i think across the board not
just in ordinary action but even in responding

[paul_moser]: to conscience

[pj_wehry]: and i hear you talking quite a
bit about encounter and you mentioned moover i

[pj_wehry]: don't remember if you mentioned levins how
much do you take from them and how

[pj_wehry]: much of their influence is present

[paul_moser]: very little from aqulinus in fact

[pj_wehry]: i'm sorry levins apologies

[paul_moser]: levina

[pj_wehry]: levin a sorry

[paul_moser]: levin levina

[pj_wehry]: my pronunciayeah

[paul_moser]: no no no no i don't that
that

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: kind of language doesn't help me when

[pj_wehry]: got

[paul_moser]: people

[pj_wehry]: you

[paul_moser]: talk about other ing the other and

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: i don't my view

[pj_wehry]: ah

[paul_moser]: is by design steeped in the biblical
narratives

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: and i have a strong preference for
paul's understanding of jesus um even over that

[paul_moser]: of hebrews because paul has a view
of self sacrifice the writer of he i

[paul_moser]: thought that that had ended and i
think it's more complex than that but i

[paul_moser]: think paul has the most profound understanding
of who jesus is in the new test

[paul_moser]: i meant and so i get my
views largely through paul

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: and i think he just sheds incredible
light on jesus as well as on the

[paul_moser]: place of the hebrew bible the place
of the law i think even though he

[paul_moser]: had never met jesus bodily understood him
with unmatched depth so yeah i don't i

[paul_moser]: don't look to any

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: contemporary philosophers in this regard although i
do have some favorites and most of my

[paul_moser]: favorites are philosophical theologians who are long
dead and they it's interesting many of them

[paul_moser]: come out of scotland like p t
forsyth i love his work h r mackintosh

[paul_moser]: i love his work and i think
they just john bailey has done really remarkable

[paul_moser]: work on the relation of ethics to
god and some older were in the gens

[paul_moser]: book on or no age of god
so my favorites would come out of that

[paul_moser]: tradition the philosopher s i think i
don't think they understand the biblical narratives adequately

[paul_moser]: i don't think aclinist

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: did i don't think nos did even
boober i mean boober was obviously a scholar

[paul_moser]: of the hebrew bible but i find
him

[paul_moser]: almost too abstract and philosophical and i
don't think he takes the benefit jesus into

[paul_moser]: his account i think hessel abraham heschell
moves a bit closer but i think until

[paul_moser]: you until you look at jesus and
paul you are at a real disadvantage in

[paul_moser]: putting the pieces of the puzzle together

[pj_wehry]: yeah thank you that really that helps
a lot and there's definitely there's names that

[pj_wehry]: i had heard but i've never read
so i will definitely look those up later

[pj_wehry]: you mentioned earlier talking about loving your
enemy and that seems to be kind of

[pj_wehry]: a key thread throughout your book why
is that the key thread in your argument

[paul_moser]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: about divine guidance

[paul_moser]: yeah that's your right to perceive that
that's because that takes us to the heart

[paul_moser]: of god's moral character and what does
it mean

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: means that god's love is unearned i
mean if god can of god's enemies i

[paul_moser]: mean you hardly say oh my enemy
here who hates me earns my love no

[paul_moser]: on the contrary god's love is amazing
because it extends to god's enemies and paul

[paul_moser]: endorses this two in romans twelve echoing
the sermon on the mount or i don't

[paul_moser]: know echoing in the in a broad
sense be romans was written before matthew but

[paul_moser]: paul knew about this through independent means
and what you have there is jesus ming

[paul_moser]: to

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: represent his father show us who god
is and to enact god's moral character through

[paul_moser]: the cross and the resurrection and in
doing so in acting god's enemy love so

[paul_moser]: paul can

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: say in romans while we were still
enemies we were reconciled to god through jesus

[paul_moser]: and so we don't usually think of
this but that's the fact of the matter

[paul_moser]: when we respond to the good news
we are enemies of god responding to god's

[paul_moser]: love so enemy love becomes the kind
of love

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: unique to god i hate to be
offensive but you and i don't have that

[paul_moser]: enemy love on our own i mean

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: just check out how you've treated your
enemies throughout your life and if we're honest

[paul_moser]: we're going to say now at best

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: there second class citizens in my world
if

[pj_wehry]: uh

[paul_moser]: they're allowed to be citizens at all

[pj_wehry]: yeah yeah

[paul_moser]: um and you know i share that
so when i hear about you know what

[paul_moser]: hitler did and our complicity in the
holy cost in the use

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: it's just outrageous it's outrageous how we
treated the jews and we're supposed to offer

[paul_moser]: forgiveness i mean

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: come on that's just crazy

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: and then people get all confused because
they say that means you don't challenge them

[paul_moser]: that means you can don evil no
it doesn't an offer of forgiveness is not

[paul_moser]: forgiveness received that would require repentance will
hitler

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: repent i don't know don't ask me

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: but the point is it looks as
if some people

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: won't because jesus was willing to say
it had been better if that man had

[paul_moser]: not been born

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: so i aspire to universalism i hope
everybody's there at the party the evidence isn't

[paul_moser]: too encouraging it

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: looks as if some people are going
to

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: say sorry i don't need this and
i have a good friend who's very smart

[paul_moser]: education is not his weakness he's his
luck if i find out i'm wrong at

[paul_moser]: the end and that there really is
a god i'm just going to kill myself

[paul_moser]: i don't need this i'm going to
check out and of course

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: i said well really are you serious
you finally get to the end you see

[paul_moser]: there's this good guy who

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: has your interest in my you're checking
out

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: he says yeah because i really i
really don't want that kind of shall i

[paul_moser]: say oversight on my life so i'm
gonna i'm going to kill

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: myself now yeah is he wrong is
he he's not lying that's his intention i

[paul_moser]: know that but is he going to
wake up at some point and say i

[paul_moser]: was a fool i don't know it
i don't know so

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: i can't endorse universalism but i aspire
to it i think god does too

[pj_wehry]: and

[paul_moser]: my

[pj_wehry]: i think one that leads into a
question i was just about to ask but

[pj_wehry]: this goes back to that non coercive
character right that god could make these people

[pj_wehry]: but that's not what he's looking for
he's looking for people to be in communion

[pj_wehry]: with

[paul_moser]: and then what does these people

[pj_wehry]: god

[paul_moser]: mean then they are no longer these
people

[pj_wehry]: right

[paul_moser]: in other words they

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: are no longer agents separate from god
they become hogs

[pj_wehry]: right

[paul_moser]: and god's gear and

[pj_wehry]: right

[paul_moser]: they're just extensions of god's that's not
that's not report or fellowship that is manipulation

[paul_moser]: and that depersonalizes and that is not
what's going on

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: if you read the new testament or
even the hebrew bible typically that is not

[paul_moser]: the story i mean what's this stuff
about god holding out his hands all day

[paul_moser]: long to a disobedient people paul is
siting isaiah there in romans

[pj_wehry]: hm

[paul_moser]: and what's that about i mean is
that just a farce got playing games here

[paul_moser]: no paul meant that you know the
opponents of jesus got into trouble because of

[paul_moser]: their unbelief paul says not because god
forced them romans nine is not about

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: god forcing people not to believe in
god that's just unbelievable if you read romans

[paul_moser]: ten and eleven god is seeking to
bring in the gentiles and as a result

[paul_moser]: the jewish people who have a problem
with jesus it's

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: oppressed toward widening the tent not narrowing
it

[pj_wehry]: and that i think as you talk
about these you know your friend who is

[pj_wehry]: would rather kill himself than be under
any oversight or you talk about hitler you

[pj_wehry]: mentioned at the end many theologians

[paul_moser]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: ignore the prominent theme of divine jealousy
in their acc of divine love and i

[pj_wehry]: think can you speak to that a
little bit as we we talk about people

[pj_wehry]: who as we talk about the lack
of coercion right but then there's you have

[pj_wehry]: to deal with people who choose

[paul_moser]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: no

[paul_moser]: that's right and that's a taboo topic
to try to find somebody who deals forth

[paul_moser]: rightly with divine jealousy i think i
cite

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: four or five books where

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: you know these big toms on gape
not a peep on divine jealousy where's the

[paul_moser]: old testament my name is jealous his
name is

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: jealous i mean what's going on there
and it's pretty clear that if you look

[paul_moser]: at the the biblical discussion god is
not jealous against me god is jealous for

[paul_moser]: me for

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: righteousness on my behalf and this is
so very important because it explains why god

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: not only allows havoc to be wrought
in this world but god himself wreaks havoc

[paul_moser]: in many contexts isaiah says god creates
the est the hebrew word is sometimes translated

[paul_moser]: evil it's not to be translated evil
in isaiah there is god's creating a kind

[paul_moser]: of mess in the world

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: to shake things up and so i
have this view of god

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: as an agitator for righteousness god agitates
and i

[pj_wehry]: hm

[paul_moser]: think we've lost this dea of an
active god who wreaks havoc in the world

[paul_moser]: to shake things up for righteousness and
so i ask where should we look for

[paul_moser]: this reeking of havoc and i'm saying

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: pretty much wherever you see it because
god is active trying to bring good out

[paul_moser]: of suffering out of the bad that
results god is seeking redemption and sometimes it

[paul_moser]: comes only by resurrection sometimes prior to
it but

[pj_wehry]: hm

[paul_moser]: this idea of jealousy god isn't just
good god is bent on covering everything with

[paul_moser]: god's goodness god wants to paint it
all with divine righteousness and then sorry to

[paul_moser]: say he wants to do it through
us and this

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: is where the rub comes because that
means you and i must become the righteousness

[paul_moser]: of god paul says in christ we
become god's right well that's no picnic given

[paul_moser]: where

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: we start from and so there's this
huge learning transforming curve where we have to

[paul_moser]: be re made this is what regeneration
is about being re made paul would say

[paul_moser]: in the image of christ who is
the perfect image of god well that means

[paul_moser]: a life some travail and frustration and
so suffering becomes get this for paul something

[paul_moser]: we rejoice in now that just sounds
stupid we rejoice in suffering and

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: paul can step back and say yes
because god's at work bringing good out of

[paul_moser]: it fast in your seat belts because

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: there's going to be a bumpy road
or two on the way but this idea

[paul_moser]: of jealousy for righteousness if that's not
front and center we will understand who god

[paul_moser]: is and how this world might be
god's world if you don't have god working

[paul_moser]: hard setting of free agents to paint
it all with righteousness it just doesn't make

[paul_moser]: any sense it seems like a big
cam i mean

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: why didn't god just flip the switch
ten thousand years ago and clean it up

[paul_moser]: if god is you know bringing about
things just by god's because it's co operative

[paul_moser]: that's the very design

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: why didn't god just wipe out adam
and eve but instead says you know you're

[paul_moser]: gonna have to leave the garden i'm
going to protect the source of life you're

[paul_moser]: going to have to learn some stuff
and so you can think of it as

[paul_moser]: a massive uh institution for moral make
over where our co operation is vital take

[paul_moser]: it out and nothing makes sense

[pj_wehry]: sorry i'm just sitting

[paul_moser]: so and so when

[pj_wehry]: with that

[paul_moser]: our

[pj_wehry]: for

[paul_moser]: big

[pj_wehry]: a

[paul_moser]: weakness

[pj_wehry]: second

[paul_moser]: becomes

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: we don't value righteousness the way god
does

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: we don't take it seriously the way
god now we're going to talk about love

[paul_moser]: and it's a remarkable notice how jesus
doesn't talk about love really very much at

[paul_moser]: all i mean he gives us a
love command and in mark's gospel here's the

[paul_moser]: first command he was to jesus is
more bent on a kind of righteousness because

[paul_moser]: god's righteousness includes love righteous love if
you take away that qualifyer you get into

[paul_moser]: big trouble because god becomes a kind
of romantic cream puff people get all romantic

[paul_moser]: and you say stop that that's not
what god is like god is holy god

[paul_moser]: is righteous and out of that comes
and here's what a gap is good will

[paul_moser]: for others that's what a gap is
but that good will

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: comes out of god's righteous character

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: and well so we

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: don't take jealousy seriously because we're kind
of half baked about righteous yea it would

[paul_moser]: be nice if things were righteous but
you know so we not really we don't

[paul_moser]: care

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: that wasn't the attitude of jesus he
was burning with righteousness and that's shown at

[paul_moser]: his at the z for god's house
zeal the hebrew word for zealous is the

[paul_moser]: same there in the in the original
use of it in the hebrew bible as

[paul_moser]: jealous zealous and jealous they're the same
word and

[pj_wehry]: hm

[paul_moser]: he shows that at the temple when
he kicks out the sales people overturns the

[paul_moser]: table and they say zeal for your
house has consumed me so what jesus is

[paul_moser]: doing is reflecting god's passionate righteousness i
don't think the church has that today i

[paul_moser]: think it's

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: lost i think it's

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: i think it's water down water down
the conception of yale and yeas son jesus

[paul_moser]: i think i think that's been the
big tragedy

[pj_wehry]: and as i'm sitting here one of
the especially in our society one of the

[pj_wehry]: first questions that comes to mind is
why can't god just leave me alone right

[pj_wehry]: and the answer is

[paul_moser]: uh

[pj_wehry]: is that it's better to live with
god and in this case with righteousness because

[pj_wehry]: you can't live with god without righteousness

[paul_moser]: m

[pj_wehry]: the other answer of course is that
you're only

[paul_moser]: oh

[pj_wehry]: sustained only created and sustained by

[paul_moser]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: god that's also part of it but
what what comes to mind even you're talking

[pj_wehry]: about this that god is this agitator
righteousness is i we see people who are

[pj_wehry]: not agitated for righteousness and those are
the people that christ actually tells us to

[pj_wehry]: pity the rich man cannot be saved
well says it is harder for him to

[pj_wehry]: be saved than a camel to go
through the eye of a needle because they

[pj_wehry]: do not sense their lack and that
is what god is in his jealousy is

[pj_wehry]: calling us to

[paul_moser]: that's right

[pj_wehry]: am

[paul_moser]: in

[pj_wehry]: i

[paul_moser]: other

[pj_wehry]: tracking

[paul_moser]: words

[pj_wehry]: with you there yeah i think sorry
i

[paul_moser]: indeed

[pj_wehry]: should have asked

[paul_moser]: indeed

[pj_wehry]: my yeah

[paul_moser]: no no indeed and and notice if
you if you were to ask jesus he

[paul_moser]: would say there is no real life
without righteousness that would be losing your soul

[paul_moser]: uh

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: to gain the world and

[pj_wehry]: right

[paul_moser]: he's got this image of the only
life worth living is the righteousness of his

[paul_moser]: father and he is bent on showing
this all the way up through gassemini and

[paul_moser]: i regard gassemini as his signature moment
because there he's telling

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: us who he really is in relation
to his father i mean in gasemini it's

[paul_moser]: a ba father and then whose will
is first well i wanted it this way

[paul_moser]: but i'm going to i'm going to
go for your righteousness

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: and i'm going to display it to
the world by this self give in event

[paul_moser]: in jerusalem this doesn't look good for
me i'm not sure how it's going to

[paul_moser]: work out in detail and so you
can get the cry of derelection in mark

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: and matthew where

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: my god my god is still my
god but what's going on here why have

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: you abandoned

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: me and

[pj_wehry]: ah

[paul_moser]: so he did feel abandoned and we
know that ultimately god didn't abandon them he

[paul_moser]: raised him and exalted and paul says
in philippians because of his obedience paul says

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: because he has given up his life
at the cross so i think the importance

[paul_moser]: of righteousness as something we uminternalize something
we defined by is what jesus is all

[paul_moser]: about i think that's what the new
birth is all about where god comes to

[paul_moser]: people and works in their lives in
such a way that they reflect who god

[paul_moser]: is and i think when that happens
um you have a game changer because no

[paul_moser]: longer is it about am i listening
to this law or that law am i

[paul_moser]: following this ritual or that ritual it's
about who i am in relation to this

[paul_moser]: god but we'll never get there i
claim unless

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: we stay in moral report this is
not a kind of do these three steps

[pj_wehry]: yah

[paul_moser]: you've succeeded now you're there

[pj_wehry]: h yeah

[paul_moser]: no it's more of a work in
progress and paul talks about

[pj_wehry]: oh

[paul_moser]: this when he asks whether he has
arrived and it's inflipient no of course not

[paul_moser]: he's an ongoing project but it's in
that moral report that's where the eternal life

[paul_moser]: is john's gospel even gets this when
it says this is eternal life to know

[paul_moser]: you and the one you sent to
know you there that means this inter active

[paul_moser]: relationship until we put that front and
center i think we're missing the mark and

[paul_moser]: the only question we come the end
where should we look for real evidence that

[paul_moser]: god is actually doing this stuff because
so far you might say well you know

[paul_moser]: you've got a nice fairy

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: tale there but it really does free
of what i need to take it seriously

[paul_moser]: and i want to say

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: no it doesn't if you take the
time to look within and see how your

[paul_moser]: more looks eperience really is in other
words shut up for a minute and pay

[paul_moser]: attention

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: you will see this

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: challenge to be convicted in conscience and
by the way that's the promise john's gospel

[paul_moser]: gives for the departure of jesus the
spirit will come and he will convict you

[paul_moser]: of and that gives the list of
righteousness i mean what's that about on victor

[paul_moser]: of righteousness it's about what we've been
talking about that

[pj_wehry]: right

[paul_moser]: this is how god brings god's own
character into a human life and so you

[paul_moser]: don't need the arguments of the philosophers
you don't need all the abstract stuff you

[paul_moser]: need candor and you need something like
courage and loyalty to whatever goodness

[pj_wehry]: hm

[paul_moser]: is presented to you even a child
can have that a ten year old

[pj_wehry]: m

[paul_moser]: and have that kind of stuff and
so the philosophers become just a kind of

[paul_moser]: afterthought let them write their homes let
them go off unto these various paths that

[paul_moser]: isn't where the action is

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[paul_moser]: because that isn't where the spirit of
god is working in conscience

[pj_wehry]: dr moser i can't think of a
better way to finish today thank you so

[pj_wehry]: much it's been an absolute joy having
you on today

[paul_moser]: i've enjoyed it thank you p j

[pj_wehry]: oh