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I moved from a five-bedroom house on half an acre in Texas to a two-bedroom furnished apartment in Portugal. That's an 80 percent downsize! The hardest part was standing in my house, looking at decades of stuff, and not knowing where to start.
Vivian Najib has done this three times. She's a professional organizer who's moved from New York to Italy, Southeast Asia, and now Portugal. In this conversation, she walks us through her Bucket System. Her framework takes the stress out of downsizing by giving every item a next destination instead of asking "keep or toss."
We cover her buckets, learn why "I love it" is not a destination, and find out how and why to set limits before you start sorting. If your stuff is the thing standing between you and your move, this is the episode.
Work with Vivian: ftbhomeorganizing.com/moveabroad
Join the We're Moving to Europe Community (free): skool.com/were-moving-to-europe
00:00 Introduction to the Journey of Moving Abroad
02:21 Personal Experiences with Moving and Downsizing
06:06 Understanding the Emotional Impact of Letting Go
09:24 The Bucket System for Organizing Belongings
13:15 Logistical Challenges of Moving: Fly, Ship, Store
16:50 Financial Considerations in Shipping and Storage
23:28 Setting the Foundation for Downsizing
24:13 Getting the Boat in Motion
26:09 The Simon Cowell Sweep
28:20 Making Thoughtful Decisions
32:51 Clarifying Your New Life
33:59 Approaching a Quick Move
35:49 The Not on My New Album Filter
38:44 Bringing Meaningful Items
42:10 Embracing the Adventure of Downsizing
44:14 Introduction to Moving to Europe
44:16 Practical Steps for Relocation
Music and production by @Sage Barton
Vivian Najib has done this three times. She's a professional organizer who's moved from New York to Italy, Southeast Asia, and now Portugal. In this conversation, she walks us through her Bucket System. Her framework takes the stress out of downsizing by giving every item a next destination instead of asking "keep or toss."
We cover her buckets, learn why "I love it" is not a destination, and find out how and why to set limits before you start sorting. If your stuff is the thing standing between you and your move, this is the episode.
Work with Vivian: ftbhomeorganizing.com/moveabroad
Join the We're Moving to Europe Community (free): skool.com/were-moving-to-europe
00:00 Introduction to the Journey of Moving Abroad
02:21 Personal Experiences with Moving and Downsizing
06:06 Understanding the Emotional Impact of Letting Go
09:24 The Bucket System for Organizing Belongings
13:15 Logistical Challenges of Moving: Fly, Ship, Store
16:50 Financial Considerations in Shipping and Storage
23:28 Setting the Foundation for Downsizing
24:13 Getting the Boat in Motion
26:09 The Simon Cowell Sweep
28:20 Making Thoughtful Decisions
32:51 Clarifying Your New Life
33:59 Approaching a Quick Move
35:49 The Not on My New Album Filter
38:44 Bringing Meaningful Items
42:10 Embracing the Adventure of Downsizing
44:14 Introduction to Moving to Europe
44:16 Practical Steps for Relocation
Music and production by @Sage Barton
Creators and Guests
What is We're Moving To Europe?
If you're an American seriously thinking about moving to Europe, this channel exists to save you the hours I spent sorting through overwhelming and outdated information before I figured it out.
I'm Casey Kelly. I moved from Texas to Portugal in 2023. My sons had already left the US, one to the Netherlands and one to Sweden. Between us, we've dealt with visa delays, healthcare paperwork, scouting trips that almost went sideways, and the experience of fitting into a new place.
Each video covers something you'll need to know before you go, like which visa and residency options could work for you, healthcare as an American abroad, taxes, earning a living, moving with kids or pets, and the decisions that trip people up without good information. No hard sells. No steering you toward a specific country because someone's paying for the referral.
When you're ready to build your personalized pathway from the US to Europe, the free We're Moving to Europe community has starter courses, a forum where you can ask questions, and live Q&As. Find us at skool.com/were-moving-to-europe
Follow the show so you don't miss new episodes!
Casey Kelly-Barton (00:00)
I went from a five bedroom house on half an acre in Texas, to a two bedroom furnished apartment in Portugal. That's like an 80 % downsize. one of the hardest steps in the move for me was standing in my house after my kids had left home for Sweden and the Netherlands, looking at decades of stuff and not knowing where to start. Vivian Najib has done this three times,
She's a professional organizer and she has a system that takes the emotion out of it, by sorting everything into destination buckets so that every item in your home has a next stop before you move. In this conversation, Vivian walks us through exactly how that bucket system works, why keep or toss is the wrong question, and how to figure out which of your belongings belong in your new life.
So if your stuff is the thing standing between you and your move abroad, this is the episode.
And if you're an American who wants to move to Europe and you're not quite sure how to begin or how you can get there, the We're Moving to Europe community is where you can find pathways that work. Come join us for free at We're Moving to Europe on Skool. That's S-K-O-O-L dot com. We'll see you there.
Casey Kelly-Barton (01:08)
Hey everyone, we're glad you're here. Today we have with us Vivian Najib. She is a home organizer who helps smart, capable women think clearly about their stuff, let go of what no longer fits, and make space for the next chapter of their lives, which we think is a perfect tie-in for getting ready to move to Europe. The thing I like about Vivian is she has a no shame, let's do this approach that combines strategy, humor.
Vivian (01:09)
Yes
Casey Kelly-Barton (01:33)
and real life practicality. So welcome, Vivian.
Vivian (01:37)
Thanks. I am excited to be here. I'm excited to have this conversation with you. Because like I always, I always say moving abroad will take all of your stuff, right? You can absolutely take all of your stuff, but it will also take all of your money. And you will end up on the other side with things that you're like, why did I bring this? And what do I do with it now? And so
Casey Kelly-Barton (01:47)
Ha
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
Vivian (02:01)
It's important to think about this stuff when you're thinking about a move abroad because it's big. It's a big deal, what you bring with you and what you don't.
Casey Kelly-Barton (02:10)
It's a huge deal and there's enough other stuff to think about do you want to talk about this because you're an American, you also live here in Portugal, and you've moved around quite a bit, have you not?
Vivian (02:21)
Yeah, I moved abroad twice. 20, 19, 20 years ago, I moved from New York City to Italy. then about 10 years ago, I moved from New York City to Southeast Asia. And then I've been in Portugal for about six years. So I've stood in the kitchen looking around going.
Casey Kelly-Barton (02:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
the well.
Vivian (02:42)
What do I do with all of this stuff? Twice.
Casey Kelly-Barton (02:44)
Right. Yeah.
So it's not just hypothetical for you.
Vivian (02:48)
No, no, this is
this I've done it. I've been you we've been well, we've been there, right? We've looked at our stuff and thought, here we go.
Casey Kelly-Barton (02:55)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that I find with members in my community is the stuff can be a real stumbling block. I mean, there's a lot of things that can bog you down when you're moving. There's the immigration paperwork. There's, you know, figuring out your revenue stream. Are you going to retire? Are you going to find a job or are you going to build a business? And for some people, the stuff is where they get stuck, especially if you've lived in one place for a long time. If you're sort of the keeper of the family heirlooms.
or if you're just busy and do you want to talk a little bit about maybe how people can get past that without feeling like they're having to give away things that are important to them or just feeling like it's a rush that's upsetting or stressful?
Vivian (03:41)
Yeah. I think the first thing I would say is like, if you have a lifetime of belongings in a house that you are, all right, let me preface it with this, I guess. tell me if you think in your experience, this is true. There are people who move abroad with a backpack and then there are people who move abroad with like a freighter.
Casey Kelly-Barton (03:47)
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (04:04)
full of stuff, right? It's one of those, it's like, you know, law and order, they're in the world of international moving. They're two separate and distinct kinds of people, right? The people who take everything with them and the people who take nothing with them. And you and I, we are not either of those people, right? The thought of taking nothing with me, it like, not gonna happen. But you all can't take everything.
Casey Kelly-Barton (04:04)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Vivian (04:32)
And so you have to think all of this stuff in my house that is meaningful to me, right? You've got stuff in there with your identity attached to it, your memories attached to it, your family history attached to it. ⁓ And you've got stuff in there that you have no attachments to. It just somehow is still there. So you've got to deal with both of these things.
Casey Kelly-Barton (04:45)
Yeah
Yeah.
Vivian (04:55)
And
they're equally as hard, I think, because it's so much. And that's what really gets people is the, do I even start with all of this? Because it's too much. I don't even know where to start.
Casey Kelly-Barton (04:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly. And so they just stop.
So you get to a point where you're just like, you're stopped, right? And okay.
Vivian (05:14)
lyrics.
Yeah, because it's all hard. Like emotionally, it's
all hard whether you like the stuff or not. Like you've already been through this overwhelming process of getting your visa, figuring out your work situation, ⁓ figuring, you know, telling your family that you're leaving. And now you, like you get this big sense of relief, like, okay.
Casey Kelly-Barton (05:25)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Great.
Vivian (05:40)
That part is covered. That's the hard part. The hard part is done, but it's not the hard part. Like the hard part is the saying goodbye. And part of what you are saying goodbye to is a lifetime of belongings that have been part of your life for years. So a lot of people think like the place that you start that process is by looking at all of your stuff.
Casey Kelly-Barton (05:44)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (06:06)
I think the place you start that process is not by looking at the stuff, it's by looking at the life, right? You've got to think about what kind of life you want to be living in this new country so that you can bring with you the things that you need for that life to be possible.
Casey Kelly-Barton (06:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
I find that that's something that when I talk to people, and it was difficult for me at first too, there's, you you want the European lifestyle, you want the walkability, you want like, you know, that you can just like go to things, you don't have to maintain this big house. The trade off that it can be hard to physically imagine is that you're going to have a lot less space for stuff. And
Vivian (06:53)
Yeah.
Casey Kelly-Barton (06:54)
I think that trips a lot of people up too, especially if you're the sort of person who has, well, I worked hard for this stuff and I've curated my lifestyle and whatever, but to switch lifestyles, you kind of have to switch stuff to some degree, right?
Vivian (07:07)
Well, some of it is just practical realities. Like I said, you can bring all your stuff with you. We both know people that have done that. But you may be living, and you probably will be living if you're moving to Europe or even Asia. Probably you're going to be living in a home that is 50 to 80 % smaller than your American home. You went from what?
Casey Kelly-Barton (07:10)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Vivian (07:34)
What to like.
Casey Kelly-Barton (07:34)
I went from,
yeah, and we talked about maybe using me as an example because I went from a five bedroom house with a garage apartment and two out buildings on half an acre of land where I had lived. I moved in 2023. I had been living in that house since 2004, raised two kids there, had a whole bunch of poultry. I mean, we lived in the house.
And I knew that I would be going to a two-bedroom furnished apartment. Yeah.
Vivian (08:05)
So 80 % smaller probably. Which means 80 % of your stuff has to go somewhere that isn't your new home.
Casey Kelly-Barton (08:08)
Yes. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Vivian (08:17)
So the way I like to think about the downsizing, One, you got to know what that life is going to look like, right? In terms of one, the size of the house, like what's the house going to look like? But also, like, what are you going to be doing there? Right? Are you going to be going to the beach every day? Like maybe you don't like...
need to bring the snowblower and the snow shovel. Like, so like having a picture of what your life looks like is helpful when you start figuring out what kind of stuff you need to make that life work and what you don't need. But also what having that vision of your life does is it helps you helps you figure out
Casey Kelly-Barton (08:39)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (09:01)
One, what's going with you, but what is not going with you. And what is not going with you is just not going with you, right? It's like when you graduated from high school and like, you know, you're saying goodbye to all of your friends and maybe people are crying, but nobody is like sobbing into their sheet cake because it's not like things are just disappearing.
Casey Kelly-Barton (09:04)
Right.
You
Vivian (09:24)
Right? You're not getting rid of friends. You're not tossing them out. Everyone is going somewhere. And it's the same thing with your belongings. Right? You're not getting rid of them. You're not tossing them out. You're not throwing them overboard. They have a next destination. Right? And so I like to think of moving. I like to use this idea of like buckets, a bucket system.
Casey Kelly-Barton (09:24)
Right.
Mm-hmm. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (09:48)
And because a lot of people think when they start going through their stuff, the question is, I keeping it or am I tossing it? Right? Am keeping it? Am I tossing it? But that keep or toss isn't the right question. I think it's too simple for what you're doing and it's too hard for what you're doing because there's too much emotion attached to it.
Casey Kelly-Barton (09:56)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (10:12)
And when emotion is attached to things, it's hard to make thoughtful, intelligent decisions about them. So I like a bucket system because all you have to do is decide what bucket something goes in and the bucket determines that item's next destination. Keep is not a bucket.
Casey Kelly-Barton (10:18)
Yes.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Vivian (10:37)
I love it is not a bucket. Right? Your bucket, because I love it is not a destination. I love it is a feeling. Right? A bucket as a destination is flying. It's flying with you on the airplane. Right? That is the destination. Right? It is going to be shipped to you. It is that is the destination is a shipping container.
Casey Kelly-Barton (10:39)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
huh.
Vivian (10:59)
Right? The destination is storage, right? You're going to put it into a storage unit because it's not coming with you now, but it is going to come back into your life at some point in the future. Right? We're not storing things for the rest of our lives because that's expensive. Bucket number four, sell.
Casey Kelly-Barton (11:00)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
That's the point. OK.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (11:22)
Right? It's not coming with you, but its next destination is that it's going to somebody else and it's going to put some money in your pocket. If it's not going to put money in your pocket, the next destination is donate or gift. Give it away. Right? And then the last bucket is just the end of the line. Right? It's the end of the line for this item. That's its final destination. So.
Casey Kelly-Barton (11:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Vivian (11:45)
You're choosing destinations for things based on whether they're coming with you right now or later, and whether they're not coming with you at all, where are they going? Right? Your friends are coming with you to college, right? Are they coming with you now? Are they coming later? The friends that are not coming with you to college, where are they going?
Casey Kelly-Barton (11:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I love this. Yeah.
Vivian (12:06)
Yeah, the bucket,
like the, cause the goal, like everything is so fraught with emotion. It's easier to let go of things. It's easier to say goodbye when things have another place they have to be.
Casey Kelly-Barton (12:12)
Yeah.
Right. that's brilliant. I love that. Yeah.
Vivian (12:24)
Yeah, yeah. Now, it's not to say
that that is easy to decide what goes into each bucket, but the thought process is, I'm not getting rid of this. I'm not tossing it. I'm just sending it to its next destination. It doesn't belong to me anymore. Or it does belong to me. It still belongs with me, right? ⁓ But you're just putting things in a destination bucket.
Casey Kelly-Barton (12:32)
Right.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Interesting. I like that idea because it forces you to think about how those objects are going to fit not only into your new life, but also into your transatlantic travel plans. Because that I think people underestimate the logistical challenges of just getting you and maybe your pets or your kids or a dependent parent, getting everybody there. know, and then you have to also bring your stuff.
Vivian (13:00)
Yeah.
Casey Kelly-Barton (13:13)
in a way that doesn't bankrupt you. So, yeah.
Vivian (13:15)
Yes. So here's the thing
about the fly, what are the buckets? Fly ship and store, right? Fly ship and store, the stuff that is coming with you. ⁓ All of those things, those buckets are not bottomless. And that's where things get a little bit tricky. So before you even start to think about what is gonna go in those buckets,
Casey Kelly-Barton (13:20)
Like, fly, ship and store, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (13:37)
You need to set some constraints on those buckets because constraints are kindness. You need to set your suitcase cap, your storage cap, and your shipping cap.
Casey Kelly-Barton (13:41)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Vivian (13:51)
And it's not what's going in those buckets, but how many suitcases am I going to carry with me to the airport? And you've got to think about that in terms of, like you said, like if you have a dog, you've got a dog to worry about. If you have parents or people that need assistance, you've got them to worry about. But I don't have any of that. I just have me. And there have been, I've been in airports where I had to carry my 40 pound piece of luggage.
Casey Kelly-Barton (13:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Vivian (14:17)
over my
head through a
to get to the airport.
Casey Kelly-Barton (14:22)
my god.
Vivian (14:24)
to catch
my flight. And I could not do that if I had five suitcases and a personal item to go under my seat. like, you gotta really think through logistically how much you can physically carry with you to the airport.
Casey Kelly-Barton (14:30)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right. Another thing I just kind of want to bring up here is you have to think about how you're going to get from the airport to your final destination because I've seen repeatedly people will say, well, we're going to check a whole bunch of we're going to pay for extra check baggage, which seems like a cost effective thing compared to shipping. Until sometimes you have to factor in that you're going to have to hire a driver with a big old van to take you and your stuff. And this is going to be a custom route.
Vivian (14:59)
Yes, 100%.
Mm.
Casey Kelly-Barton (15:10)
And that can run, depending on where you're going, several hundred euros. And people are shocked by that, but I'm like, you're essentially doing a mini move from the airport with your 15 bags or 20 bags to wherever you're going. And you have to price that in as well.
Vivian (15:18)
I'm in love.
with a driver who may or may not help you carry all of those bags up the five flights of stairs to your hotel.
Casey Kelly-Barton (15:31)
Yes,
that's right. Because in most cases, that's not their job. Unless they specifically say it's a service, their job is to drive you, drop you off at the curb, help you get your bags out of the vehicle, and then it's on you. And if you're by yourself,
Vivian (15:36)
No.
they may not even help you
get your bags in and out of the vehicle. I've had drivers to just sit in the car. And I'm like, I mean, can you at least pop the trunk? Like, what am I supposed to do? Hold this on my lap in the back seat?
Casey Kelly-Barton (15:49)
Right.
What?
⁓ yeah, gosh.
Right. And it's one of those things that you think will be fine until you're like, you know, you've got 20 bags out on the curb in a new neighborhood and you're having to run up and down the stairs. And it's not, yeah, you just kind of have to trust that nobody's going to walk off with your stuff. And in most cases, they probably won't, but it's an added stressor at the end of a long trip. So you have to think, what is it going to be like bringing all this like
Vivian (16:07)
And if you're by yourself, like...
Casey Kelly-Barton (16:22)
really bringing this stuff into my home.
Vivian (16:24)
Yeah. So like
you said, like I'm not saying don't don't suitcase things because it is a cost effective way to do a move, right? If you can do it, but just like you got to like think in your head, can I really do this? Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you need a shipping cap because, I mean, that will take all your money. It really will. Shipping is not cheap.
Casey Kelly-Barton (16:28)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Right. You have to plan every step, every single step along the way. So.
Yeah.
Vivian (16:50)
And the thing that I find people getting in trouble with with shipping is this idea that, well, I already have a sofa. I have a great sofa. Why would I buy a new sofa? Right? I already have one. I'm just going to bring it with me. And like, it sounds reasonable. It does. But I paid for it is not a reason to pay for it again when you're shipping.
Casey Kelly-Barton (16:50)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (17:17)
Because no matter what happens right now, you are going to pay to have a sofa in your apartment. Whether you pay to ship it or whether you pay to buy a new one, you are going to pay. So the idea that I already paid for it, it's not a reason to ship something across an ocean.
Casey Kelly-Barton (17:23)
Right.
Mm-hmm. Right.
Right.
Well, and the other thing with that, and I've seen people go through this, is you might pay to ship it, but then you might wait weeks or sometimes depending on how shipping is going and customs and having to bring it from Rotterdam to wherever you are on the continent, you might be without that piece of furniture for, you know, a few weeks, three months. What are you going to do in the meantime? So.
Vivian (18:01)
Yeah, yeah,
so you've got to think about that. You've got to think about the cost. You've got to think about the time. So you shipped none of your furniture. No.
Casey Kelly-Barton (18:04)
Mm-hmm.
no, because a
lot of it was, well, for one thing, I had an easy out because I have a brother who he and his wife have eight kids and live on a farm. So they always needs, you know, it was like they had room for it and they were happy to take it off my hands. Right. Because they had just finished building like an extra cabin on their property. And so I basically said, bring a moving van.
Vivian (18:19)
of health.
Like, I'll take a crumb shot.
Hmm.
Casey Kelly-Barton (18:35)
and take
what you want, you know, whatever you and your wife and the kids want, just take it. And he also took my ducks, which was wonderful because he like, I was really stressing about what I was going to do with the ducks. I was already bringing a dog and a rabbit and people. I did. I brought a dog and a rabbit. Yeah. And so, and that posed additional constraints because I was doing one of those like shared pets.
Vivian (18:46)
Yeah, you're not taking off. Wait, you brought a rabbit too? A dog and a rabbit?
Casey Kelly-Barton (18:59)
flights where you do like a group charter thing and people were like, you're so lucky you're doing that. That means you can bring all kinds of luggage. No, no, I can bring two bags. That was it. So I had made I had brought stuff in bags before to my apartment in Portugal. But no, I didn't bring anything like that. I got rid of everything. Everything either went to family or neighbors or.
Vivian (19:01)
⁓ yeah.
So you didn't even
have to, you didn't put anything in storage either.
Casey Kelly-Barton (19:23)
no, because and this just came from a different perspective. I come from a family that used to have a lot of old people in it. Like, I think that I was like co-grandparented by a cast of about 11 different relatives. And as they moved, you know, we downsize as we get older and they would put things in storage for later.
Vivian (19:39)
I love that.
Casey Kelly-Barton (19:46)
And every single time when they passed away, there was just like this monumental task for the family to go through like a home's worth of storage. And I thought, I'm not going to do that. I'm not, especially because I'm cheap and storage is expensive. And I just didn't want to do it. I was like, if you want something from my house, come and get it. Otherwise it's going to Goodwill. So yeah.
Vivian (19:58)
now.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, ⁓
I was talking with a client the other day who moved her job, moved her to Singapore ⁓ eight years ago. And they were willing to pay for like part of her move, but they weren't going to pay for to move all of her stuff, right? Because it was only, I she was supposed to originally only be there like a year or two. ⁓
Casey Kelly-Barton (20:16)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
yeah.
Vivian (20:31)
And so it didn't make sense to move everything for a year or two, but that was eight years ago, right? She's still there and has no plans to leave. But the day that she moved out of her apartment in New York, her company did pay for movers to come and pack up her apartment and move it to storage, right? But she's been paying for that storage unit, you know, 300 bucks a month.
Casey Kelly-Barton (20:34)
Mm-hmm.
well.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Right.
gosh.
Vivian (20:54)
for the past eight years, and I'm not great at math, but I feel like she has now spent like 30, $40,000 for stuff that she's never gonna see again or want again or use again. And now she's gotta figure out how to get rid of it all from Singapore.
Casey Kelly-Barton (20:56)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
from Singapore. Yeah. Yeah. I just didn't want to be in that position. Yeah.
Vivian (21:18)
No, no
storing stuff makes sense if it's a temporary move, right?
Casey Kelly-Barton (21:23)
Right. And for a year, if
you think you're going to be there for a year, it totally makes sense to start off like that. Yeah.
Vivian (21:28)
Yeah, when I
first moved 20, 19, 20 years ago to Italy, I put stuff, about a third of my stuff into storage because I didn't know where I was going to end up, right? I was moving, I started off in a language school and so I was in like a regular apartment that was like, I didn't need stuff. But at some point I thought I was going to want my stuff.
Casey Kelly-Barton (21:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Right.
Vivian (21:50)
So like I put it in storage with movers who then when I said, here's where you're going, could move it over. but long storage without a plan for the storage is, you know, is tempting the ghosts of tempting the ghost to haunt you for, you know, as long as you both shall store, right?
Casey Kelly-Barton (21:58)
Right.
Tempting the ghost.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah. So storage should be. Yeah.
Vivian (22:15)
So you you gotta have caps. You need a cap. You need to know,
and the storage cap isn't I can pay $300 a month. The storage cap needs to be, look, I'm not willing to pay more than $40,000 to store this stuff, which means I can get this size of a unit for $100 a month and store it for, now I can't do math. This is like a word problem on the SAT and I can't do it. Or I can get a bigger
Casey Kelly-Barton (22:28)
Right.
But yeah, no, I know what you mean. You're going to have to set, yeah.
Vivian (22:41)
unit that can fit more stuff, but I can only keep that unit for four months or you know, whatever it is. and neither one of these, none of these things are bad. Taking everything on your flight, not bad. Shipping everything, not bad. Storing everything, not bad. But you have to have a cap. You have to know how much you're willing to spend.
Casey Kelly-Barton (22:43)
Mm-hmm.
Great. Yeah.
Vivian (23:06)
how much you're willing to carry, how much you're willing to invest in time, money, energy on those three categories, on those three buckets. And once you know that, right, that's freedom, right? Because then you know, then it's not like, it's that, it's that whatever that thing that went around awhile ago.
Casey Kelly-Barton (23:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Vivian (23:28)
you get the container and you put the big rocks in first and then you fill it up with the little rocks and then you pour the water in until it's full. Like that's what you're going to do then. Once you have those caps on your bucket, you're going to start filling it with stuff you want in the very different degrees until that bucket is full, right? It means you can fill the entire bucket because you know how big the bucket is.
Casey Kelly-Barton (23:32)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Vivian (23:55)
You don't have to worry about it anymore. So I always say the first two things you got to do, you got to figure out what kind of life you want to be living so that you know what stuff you need to live that life. And then you've got to sort out your buckets and choose your caps.
Casey Kelly-Barton (23:55)
Great. Great.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So what comes after that? You've picked, you know, you've you've envisioned your lifestyle. You know what you're going to need. You've set up your buckets. You've set your limits for each bucket in terms of capacity and cost. What's the next step then?
Vivian (24:18)
Okay.
The next thing is you have to get the boat moving, right? You've got to put the boat in motion because a boat in motion will stay in motion. And the easiest way that I know to get the boat in motion without like spiraling over your stuff and stressing out yourself is what I like to call
Casey Kelly-Barton (24:34)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right? Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (24:55)
The Simon Cowell sweep. So you know Simon Cowell, right? X Factor. He used to do American Idol, whatever. He was the judge or maybe it wasn't American Idol, whatever. Now he's on the X Factor and like he's he and Randy Jackson are like, it's a no, right? It's a no. It's a no from me. It's a no from me. No, no.
Casey Kelly-Barton (24:59)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Vivian (25:16)
So what you want to do is go through your house and do the Simon Cowell sweep, which means you're just going to look at everything. if you want like Simon Cowell doesn't debate over the no, right? He knows immediately the first, he almost knows the minute you walk on the stage what he's going to say, right? He knows immediately if it's a no.
Casey Kelly-Barton (25:30)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Vivian (25:44)
doesn't know if it's a yes, right? He like has to think about a yes, he has to debate in his mind about a yes, but he knows when it's a no, and he knows immediately. And so that is what you are looking for on your first pass around your house. We're getting the boat in motion. And so we are looking for the easy, obvious no. And it goes fast.
Casey Kelly-Barton (25:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (26:09)
the Simon Cowell sweep, you're not stopping to think, oh, well, is this pen trash or is it like, don't, or am I going to give it to someone? All you're doing is, is this coming with me? No. Put it in a laundry basket. Carry laundry basket around with you. And you are just putting stuff in it that you immediately say no. If you pick up, like I pick up my glass, oops, I just broke my glasses.
Casey Kelly-Barton (26:18)
Right. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
⁓ okay. Yeah, interesting.
⁓
no, that's a no. Right?
Vivian (26:36)
Okay, they're not coming with me. No, no for me. All right,
I pick up my perfectly good glasses and I I'm like, I like these like as soon as I as soon as I think about something Put them down. You're not dealing with them. They don't go in the basket. It's not an obvious No You have to know immediately if it's a no, it's a no. It's a no
Casey Kelly-Barton (26:54)
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (26:59)
The box of business cards from the job I had in 1982, it's a no, right? Stuff you don't have to think about. You can collect a lot of shit around your house that is an obvious no. You will be surprised. And if you're giving yourself the freedom to just be like, if I even have to think about it, I'm not thinking about it, I'm not touching it. I'm just picking up the obvious nos.
Casey Kelly-Barton (27:03)
Right.
Right.
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (27:25)
You can put a lot of stuff in that laundry basket. And then when you've got all of your obvious no's or if you're going to start with like a room, right? Maybe we start with a room and we just go around and we look at every single thing in the room and collect the obvious no's right? We Simon Cowell sweep it. We've got all of our no's in, I don't know, 14 laundry baskets, maybe. I don't know. Then you sit down with the laundry baskets and you decide what bucket it goes into.
Casey Kelly-Barton (27:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
okay.
Vivian (27:54)
Right?
You sweep first because you want to go fast. The minute you start thinking, it slows the process down. And the Simon Cowell sweep is about getting the boat moving and it goes fast. You don't want to think, which is why you go with your immediate no. If you like, literally, this is a three second thing. You know in three seconds if you want it or not. Right?
Casey Kelly-Barton (27:57)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Vivian (28:21)
If you have to think, if you even start to think, stop thinking and put it down. It doesn't go in the laundry basket, right? Simon Cowell sweep gets the boat moving. It's this way and it gets your brain just, you know, in the mood. And you're going to see all of this stuff that is no brainer. It reduces the volume.
Casey Kelly-Barton (28:26)
Mm-hmm. Right.
I love that.
Yeah.
Vivian (28:45)
of things in your house that you have to actually think about. And because there's so much to think about, anytime you can take a decision out of the mix, the boat is going to move faster, right?
Casey Kelly-Barton (28:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
right. And there are some things, there are whole categories of things that you just can't bring with you like household. mean, you can bring your computers, but like your sewing machine, your yeah. Yeah. If it's a laptop and has an adapter, but. Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah. I mean, that was actually I had to give away like my sewing machine, my embroidery machine, my, you know, my stand mixer, things like that.
Vivian (29:05)
Right.
⁓ Maybe. Yeah.
Any of the cord on it, probably not coming with it.
Casey Kelly-Barton (29:27)
because you can't bring them with you. They won't work.
Vivian (29:29)
Right. And this
is the kind of no brainer stuff. Like honestly, maybe you do this no brainer thing, you start in the kitchen, right? How many things in the kitchen do you have with a plug on them? Everything in your kitchen with a plug on it? No, it's a no. It's a no for me, right? It's a no. So you can really pare down your house.
Casey Kelly-Barton (29:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Not going with you. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (29:53)
with the Simon Cowell sweep. I love it. It's like my favorite thing to do. Plus it's fun because you actually were seeing things like happening. You're seeing things like that. You're like, my gosh, stuff is leaving the house. Stuff is getting done. This is great. This is great. And you're like, this is so easy. Downsizing is easy.
Casey Kelly-Barton (29:56)
Yeah. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, great.
Right. Yeah, and it's motivating.
We used to do this with my kids and I actually did it. They left before I did and they left their stuff and I told them, I'm like, you know, you know, this is like eventually going to be a thing. so they we had a game that we always played when it was time to clear things out. We called it like it or spike it. And.
Vivian (30:29)
This sounds violent.
Casey Kelly-Barton (30:31)
No, no, just spike
it like it goes away, you know, and if they like it, we kept it. If we spiked it, it went in a cardboard box to go to Goodwill. And so we kind of did the same thing when I was like, I got to clean your room out. So you need to let me know what do you want me to ship to you? What do you want to go to your dad's house? You know, what do you want me to donate? And so we just kind of did that same thing. ⁓ One is in his.
Vivian (30:52)
So how old are your kids?
Casey Kelly-Barton (30:56)
I say he's a young adult, but it hit me the other day that he's 27. He's like a he's like a whole grown up now. And then my my younger son is 22 and he's still in college. So he had to be he had to be mindful of the space for, know, because he's in a shared house in the Netherlands where the housing stock is pretty small and also like, you know,
Vivian (31:00)
He's a full adult. At 27, you're like a full adult, right?
Okay.
right.
Casey Kelly-Barton (31:21)
you get a room in a house and that's it. That's what you get when you're a student basically.
Vivian (31:25)
And was there stuff that they wanted from their room?
Casey Kelly-Barton (31:27)
There were
a few things that they wanted and the rest of it was like, can either go into storage at their dad's if it's like keepsakes or it could just go. So I think I shipped one box for each of them and that was, you know, one decent size box and that was really it. ⁓ But yeah, it was that same thing of like, do you really want this? Cause we're going to have to pay to ship it. Is it going to fit in your life now? And yeah.
Vivian (31:29)
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, it
really that really is the question. Like, is it does it belong in the life that you're building right now? Like, it certainly belonged in your high school life, right? All of your trophies and all of your ribbons and all the posters on the wall. Like that was your high school life. But are you are you bringing that into your, you know, grown up life or 27 year old life? And if you are great, like right? No judgment. You know.
Casey Kelly-Barton (31:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Well, and not bringing everything and not shipping everything made it financially feasible to move heaven and earth to bring some of the things that they really did want. You know. So.
Vivian (32:25)
Yes. Yeah. It
clarifies what you really do want, right? And it clarifies like who you really are, who you have been, who you are becoming. It sort of clarifies all the different versions of you in kind of a very cool way where you can like choose to keep the stuff that
Casey Kelly-Barton (32:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Vivian (32:52)
honors your past without keeping everything that ever fit into your past and like moving forward into your future because you don't want your past to stop you from doing this like really cool thing that you're about with your life if your stuff is holding you back it's it's like it can't
Casey Kelly-Barton (32:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Absolutely.
Vivian (33:15)
Your future is too important. Like future you is too important to let your stuff from your past or your children's stuff from your children's past keep you from moving toward that.
Casey Kelly-Barton (33:25)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely, absolutely. So have a question for you. I had like a year to prepare. So I was in the position of being able to take my time. But for someone who, for whatever reason, maybe they got a job offer that they can't say no to, they're starting school, or maybe they just feel like they really just need to go ahead and make their move quickly.
Vivian (33:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Casey Kelly-Barton (33:47)
What do you recommend for people who maybe have, I don't know, a couple of months, half a year to get it all together? How should they approach it the same way?
Vivian (33:59)
I think you have to approach it the same way. Because what you don't want to do is get into this mental state where you're like ruthlessly purging things because you have to go. Right? That, you know, we don't want to ship regret across an ocean, but we also don't want to like,
Casey Kelly-Barton (34:08)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Right.
Vivian (34:17)
not take the stuff, not be thoughtful about what we're bringing to us because that is another form of regret.
Casey Kelly-Barton (34:20)
Right. Yeah.
Vivian (34:24)
And not just regret, there's also really important things that you may not want to take with you, but you have to take with you, like documents, right? There are things that you just think are paper clutter, and they are not. Not all of your paper is clutter. Some of that paper is access.
Casey Kelly-Barton (34:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
great.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (34:45)
access to your identity, to your education, to your bank accounts, to your tax, know, to your get out of jail free card from the IRS, like whatever. There are documents that you really need to spend time with your paper figuring out. So you don't want to rush and...
Casey Kelly-Barton (34:45)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Vivian (35:06)
It's another reason why having your caps in place before you start this is helpful because your caps, caps are constraints, caps are kindness, right? We are cappers, we cap. Because then your emotions and your fantasies are not making decisions for you. You are making thoughtful, calm decisions.
Casey Kelly-Barton (35:11)
Right.
Mm-hmm. Right.
right?
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (35:28)
And when
you're doing it over a year, all that means is that you can go a little, not that you can go a little bit slower, but you have more time. You don't have to, you know, work on your downsizing four hours a night when you get home from work, right? You can do it four hours on a Saturday for the next year or whatever, but you still got to do it.
Casey Kelly-Barton (35:41)
Right.
Right.
Vivian (35:49)
I think the process is still the same. I think you still do your Simon Cowell sweep. And then, you know, after your Simon Cowell sweep is when you've really then got to start making the hard decisions, right? And the hard decisions, I like to use the not on my new album filter to make these decisions.
Casey Kelly-Barton (35:49)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm-hmm. Right.
Okay, I'm gonna need a little bit more explanation for that one.
Vivian (36:13)
All right, how do you feel about Taylor Swift? I love Taylor Swift.
Casey Kelly-Barton (36:16)
Love Taylor Swift. I'm not a Swiftie.
I'm not like a Swiftie Swiftie, but when I hear her stuff, I'm like, yeah, this is really good. I like her stuff. So yeah.
Vivian (36:23)
Yeah. Okay. So
here's what I know about Taylor Swift, right? Think whatever you want of Taylor Swift, but she is a woman who knows how to evolve. Right? All of her albums are different. She starts off country, she moves to pop, she's then doing some rap. Like now she's in, then she did some like folkish sort of stuff. I mean, she is not afraid to step into a different era.
Casey Kelly-Barton (36:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Vivian (36:51)
And every era involves new songs, new music, new costumes, new everything. And when she puts out a new album, she's not putting songs from her old albums on the new album. Every new album gets a new set of songs.
Casey Kelly-Barton (36:54)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
I love that.
Vivian (37:09)
your
wish list that you made when you started thinking about this is what my life is going to be when I move overseas, right? This is the life I want to be living. That is your wish list. And that is the new album that you are putting together. And so when you put that together, you're going put on, you're going to put songs that belong on that album, right? Things that belong in that new life.
Casey Kelly-Barton (37:15)
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (37:33)
and anything that doesn't belong in that new life, it doesn't mean that it's bad. It might be a great song. Doesn't mean that you don't sing it well. Maybe you sing it great. Doesn't mean that other people aren't gonna sing along and dance with you and be mad at you that you didn't put that song on your album because it's the best song you've ever written, but you're just not gonna put it on the album. Doesn't belong on this album, right? So as you're going through and looking at your stuff,
and trying to make decisions about what goes into the buckets, does this belong in the new life that I'm building? Does it belong on the new album? If it doesn't belong on the new album, then it's going to go in sell, donate, give, end of the line. If it does go on the album, fly, ship, And so things that go on the new album.
Casey Kelly-Barton (38:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (38:21)
Things that you need in order for your new life to function, right? Things that you want because they will make your new life better or more enjoyable or more grounded, right? I'm not the kind of person who's like, well, it has to go to the new life because I'd like to eat potatoes and I'm gonna need a potato peeler, right? Yes, that is one reason to bring a potato peeler.
Casey Kelly-Barton (38:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You
Vivian (38:45)
But I'm not using, what am I not using in my new life? I'm not using my grandfather's separation papers from the military, from World War II. I'm not using those. I don't need those for anything. But I decided they belong in my new life because they remind me of who I am and they remind me of where I came from. And when you're moving to a new country,
Casey Kelly-Barton (39:00)
Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
Vivian (39:12)
That is valuable.
Casey Kelly-Barton (39:13)
Yes.
Vivian (39:14)
What kind of stuff did you bring that's like seems useless to anybody but you, but it like it fits a purpose for your life and it was something you brought with you?
Casey Kelly-Barton (39:22)
I brought family heirloom quilts. I have a quilt that's more than 100 years old that was hand stitched by my great grandmother. And I have two quilts that were hand stitched by my great aunt. And I brought all three of them and a couple of bottles of Cholula from Costco. And that's what I brought back in my...
Vivian (39:43)
Well, you can't move to another
country without the Cholula.
Casey Kelly-Barton (39:46)
Well, this was stuff I
stored the quilts at my mom's house because I knew I couldn't bring them the first time because I had all this pet stuff. And so when I my first visit back to the US, that's what I brought back. And my checked luggage was those handmade quilts and Cholula. And, you know, that was it. Those were the priorities because I knew I wanted them in my new house. And they don't mean anything really to anybody but me. But they're important to me.
Vivian (39:52)
Yeah.
They're important.
Casey Kelly-Barton (40:11)
And so now I
get to see them every day and it kind of connects me to the fact that that's where I came from. Those were my people. So yeah.
Vivian (40:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that. Because moving, moving abroad isn't like moving, you know, across town. You really are starting over. And when you leave your house every day, you're outside. You're outside where people like may not be able to talk to you and you may not be able to talk to them. And
Casey Kelly-Barton (40:20)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (40:41)
you've got government employees that are annoyed that you're even there in the first place and that you didn't bring the right paper or you didn't fill it out properly. And sometimes it can feel, especially at the beginning, like every day is a bit of a fight, like that you're constantly on high alert trying and trying and trying and it's hard. And you need a place you can come home to that is just
Casey Kelly-Barton (40:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Vivian (41:07)
Like you walk in the door and you go, okay, I belong here. This is where I belong. Like you can relax, you can, like you said, reconnect with yourself. You can remember why you decided to live this life in this country at this time. And you underestimate how valuable that is. And so this is why I think we're...
Casey Kelly-Barton (41:09)
Yes, exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Vivian (41:32)
you and I are the same and that we're not going to be those people that bring nothing with us.
Casey Kelly-Barton (41:36)
Right. Yeah. I knew there were some things that I just had to bring, you know, and like pictures of my children, things like that. And obviously I brought my pets with me. That was a big one. And they handled the move really well. I was really proud of both of them. But yeah, it's so individual, but I think that it's...
Vivian (41:42)
Yeah.
It's so individual.
Casey Kelly-Barton (41:55)
It's the way that you're systematizing looking at it, I think will make it easier for people who either feel overwhelmed or feel like it's the stumbling block that's gonna maybe keep them from living the life they want.
Vivian (42:01)
Yeah.
if that's the next stage of your life.
Casey Kelly-Barton (42:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Vivian (42:10)
then that's the next stage of your life. And it's wonderful and it's exciting and adventures await. And one of those adventures is going to be the great downsize. And it is an adventure and it's not all awful. It's not going to be one long slog through, you know, history, but some of it will be. But a lot of it will be fun. Even history is sometimes fun, right? It's enjoyable.
Casey Kelly-Barton (42:16)
Yes.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Vivian (42:37)
and I think the important thing is, is just, it's not, you don't have to ruthlessly purge. You can do it thoughtfully and curate the things that you bring that are meaningful.
Casey Kelly-Barton (42:42)
No.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I actually, I was surprised by how much joy I took in giving things to certain people. I mean, that was actually, that was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed that. I felt like the stuff fairy, you know, people are like, really, you're not going to take this with you. like, I cannot take this with me, but if you can use it, take it and enjoy it. You know? So, ⁓ yeah, I think that
Vivian (42:58)
Yeah.
Ha ha!
Yeah. It was the next
destination for that stuff. You know, it can live on. Right.
Casey Kelly-Barton (43:12)
Exactly. Mm hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. So all right. So thank you so much for talking with us today, Vivian Najib. And if you are listening or watching and you're planning a move abroad and you're looking around your house, wondering how you are supposed to turn this into, you know, your buckets, your suitcases.
your storage, your shipping, without losing your mind, Vivian has a free resource for you. It's called, and I love this, We Are Not Taking the House with Us. It's full of practical down to earth advice about how to think clearly and strategically, about downsizing, decluttering, deciding what comes with you, and thoughtfully letting go of what doesn't so that you don't make the process harder than it needs to be. And you can grab it at FTBhomeorganizing.com/moveabroad
Vivian (43:43)
Yeah.
Casey Kelly-Barton (43:59)
I will drop that link in the show notes for you. And Vivian Najib, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us today.
Vivian (44:11)
thanks for having me. It was very fun.
Casey Kelly-Barton (44:13)
Yeah, thanks.
Casey Kelly-Barton (44:16)
If you're trying to figure out how you can move to Europe, I have a free community for Americans where you can get practical help charting your path to a new life over here. Click the link below if you want in, it's in the description. We'll see you there, and remember to like, share, and subscribe for more.