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Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm your host, Derek Hudson. Essential Dynamics is a framework we've been developing to help us think through tricky situations, and this podcast allows us to explore these ideas through deep conversations with interesting people. Got my colleague Dave Kane from Unconstrained back with me. Dave, welcome back.
Dave Kane:Thanks very much, Derek.
Derek Hudson:Shall we have another deep conversation today, Dave?
Dave Kane:I think we should probably unpack a bit of what we ended with last time and and see where it goes. Yep.
Derek Hudson:K. Well, I think this is really important stuff that we're talking about, and I'm really excited to see if we can, you know, in these conversations, help people get to the, the simplicity on the other side of complexity.
Dave Kane:We'll we'll try to take the complexity and simplify it then today.
Derek Hudson:Okay. It got a little bit,
Dave Kane:a little bit confusing not confusing, but a little bit complex because we started talking about or we started ended up, pardon me, talking about the outcome versus the process and how in simple terms, we don't need to be focusing on the outcome, whether the outcome is getting great flow or whether the outcome is this awesome value, winning a project, selling lots of bro selling lots of goods. It's the process. So I I kinda want you to to sort of rehash a little bit of where we ended there. We're talking about the value in focusing on that process. Yeah.
Dave Kane:And that's how you get the flow.
Derek Hudson:I'll pick that up from a a concept. Here's a quotation. I've got a number of them, but I was able to find this one. Julia Motto said, focus on the process, not the outcome, and you will enjoy great success. The problem with focusing on the outcome is we make short term decisions.
Derek Hudson:We get a little bit tense because sometimes the outcome is a bit elusive. If it doesn't work, we get super disappointed, and then we kinda have to start from 0 again. There's there's probably lots of other reasons not to focus on the outcome. When you focus on the on the process, you can improve every time you run the process, and it can get better, and it can get more resilient, and it can take into account the things that you've learned when it didn't go well. And so you get better and better and better.
Derek Hudson:You can control the process. You can't control the outcome.
Dave Kane:Yeah. I've I've listened to this going back to your analogy from last time of the sports team, and and you just sounded like the coach. Right? And it's the same thing. They're preaching, with their teams and the coach and and sort of not focusing on on the outcome, like, say that because you can lead to
Derek Hudson:that disappointment. If you just keep building the right process, it builds in that resiliency and and ultimately makes the organization more successful. Yeah. So so you you the process takes into account all of the risks and opposition and gets better and better and better. That's one thing.
Derek Hudson:Second thing is is that the process is completely within your control. And the outcome depends on lucky balances, interest rates, injury, you know, all kinds of things that you can't control. You go nuts trying to control them.
Dave Kane:So how do you deal with the the process being something you always control? How do you then factor in these externalities? Something happens in the tax environment or tariffs come in or trade wars close, so they and they impact your system.
Derek Hudson:Yeah. Well, for example, you can just think about something very simple, which is mutual funds. And the difference between a balanced portfolio and trying to pick a winner. And if you're trying to pick a winner and you start to get spooked, you sell at the wrong time. You're trying to pick a winner, you look at a hot stock, you buy at the wrong time.
Derek Hudson:If you have a disciplined portfolio management approach, you take some of the emotion out, take some of the fluctuation out, and you get, over the long term, better results. Oh, there's always going to be someone that does better. But that that outcome focused approach may not hold up in the long run. So I think that's, that's one example. The other example is you build resilience into the process.
Derek Hudson:So so for example, you have preventive maintenance in a factory. So you know, the one the one organization doesn't do that says, well, you know, we, we couldn't control it. The machine broke down just before the big order shipped. And the real tension to the process is the machine never breaks down. Because we have shutdowns, and we refit all the parts.
Derek Hudson:And when we need to count on it, we know we can count on it because that's the process, and that's completely within our control. You can say, well, you know, what if there's a flood or an earthquake? We say, well, we have 3 manufacturing sites in different geographies. So we've covered that all. There's a there's a lot that you can do.
Derek Hudson:I mean, you can't do everything, but there's a lot that you can do. I I had a couple of great conversations with business leaders at the beginning of COVID, where they had been concerned about the proliferation of data in different places in their organization, and they felt like they needed to tie it up, and they were concerned about getting access people getting access to information. And, COVID hit, and they just sent everyone home, and they had all the access and all the information that they needed. COVID was unexpected, but the idea of having a process that protects both your data and your means of communication, that's that's within your control.
Dave Kane:Mhmm. And as you're saying that, the other piece that occurs to me is for the smaller businesses where, you know, the the the multiple markets, multiple suppliers isn't in their wheelhouse today, you could bring it back into their more, sort of center view of how do you how do you pass the the decision making out? Had like, within the essential dynamics world where I was talking about, it's not the one person that's sort of the cog. It's the process. Yeah.
Dave Kane:So I'm wondering, like, the resiliency or or the ability to handle these these external impacts, is is more about how the system responds to it and the multiple points within the system that are able to respond to it.
Derek Hudson:You know, it's actually what's building your flow. That's a really good point. I've been involved in a number of, like, emergency response or critical response planning scenarios and people trying to put plans together. And it's very hard to do that because you don't actually know what the disaster is that you're going to deal with. And so usually what it comes down to is information flow and decision making.
Derek Hudson:Yeah. And you say, well, we don't know what's gonna happen, but this is how we pull everyone together, get the information out about what's going on, and then distribute the decision making to where people have enough information to make a decision. And that's yeah. And that's a really good way to get resilience. So those are some some thoughts then about if you focus on the process, which you can control, which you can build up over time, you'll have long longer term success.
Dave Kane:Right. You can always be working on your process. It's not ever done. There's always ways to evolve it and and continue to refine it and get better at it. Right?
Derek Hudson:It's always, it always can get better, and you're always working within your your sphere of influence.
Dave Kane:Yeah. Yeah. So what I one kinda element I'd like to get you to talk a little bit about is we do a lot of this when you're assessing it, the examples you're using is because some type of con some type of tensions come into it. But I think tension is a need within the system, isn't it? Even when you're going back to your purpose x and purpose y or your drivers and your constraints.
Dave Kane:Like, over and over as you've talked about it over the last few years, there's always a tension in there. It's always, that balance. And even when we were talking last time about finding flow, and just the pressures on me personally trying to get through projects. The best is always achieved when there's a bit of this tension, and it's finding the balance in it. Is that
Derek Hudson:right? Absolutely. So I I wanted to bring it up last time, and I've referred to this book before. The book's called Flow, and it's by Mohaili Chixsan Mohaili. And he talked about, like, what I call psychological flow, so into flow of the individual experiences.
Derek Hudson:And one of the things that he he decided through observation was that we have to have the right level of challenge.
Dave Kane:We We
Derek Hudson:have to be you know, it has to be meaningful activity, and then it has to be at the right level of challenge. And that's a lot higher than we think. So if you think about the kind of flow that you would get from rock climbing or skiing. So so those high adventure sports and stuff like that. There's this element of risk and danger and being pressed to the edge.
Derek Hudson:And what he says when you achieve that flow is that you become fully immersed in it. All of your senses are focused on this one activity. And time kind of disappears, and you're not aware of anything happening for you know, and that could be that could be needlework. That certainly could be video gaming. And one of the experiences I like to share is, although most of my time in the mountains is, like, on the top of the mountain, I have done some significant, caving expeditions.
Derek Hudson:And the thing about caving is that you, you have to pay attention all the time. Like, this little cone of light in front of you isn't very big, and, you just have to pay attention all the time. And so I've been in a cave for, you know, 4 hours, 5, 6 hours, and not once in that 5 or 6 hours did I ever think about my work back at the office. You know, total absorption, total focus, total flow. And if you were in an organization where the activity is so important and the level of challenge and accomplishment is high enough, then the organization can feel that flow as well.
Derek Hudson:And I think that's what you were talking about in the previous episode about some of the projects that you're working
Dave Kane:on. Well, Edward, you think about most anything that brings in that challenge. And those are the most memorable and rewarding and exhilarating experiences. What I'm curious then is within an organization, we're talking about this within your process as a company and and and finding the balance of tension. Rock climbing is a little different because failure is bad.
Dave Kane:Yeah. It's not quite the same with your system and your process in your in your organization because finding that balance and when tension when things go poorly, it's not that you can't recover for that. It's you you learn, you adapt, and you move forward. Most of the times, they're not terminal. Right?
Derek Hudson:It's not terminal, but you but you have to care. And, so that's why you keep going back to purpose. If you if you care about your purpose, you care about your team that you're working with, and you care about some standard of excellence as well, then you introduce that challenge. And that's that what's that's the kind of the tension that you need to focus.
Dave Kane:You you bridges that challenge because your purposes usually have their own built in challenge. Right? Yeah. It's hard. Y their intention with each other.
Derek Hudson:Yeah. There's there's a there's a tension between x and y, and I've had some really interesting conversations recently with a number of organizations where we're we're trying to find the tightest tension point that's not being addressed. And we're gonna put x purpose x on one side of it and purpose y on the other side of it. And so this is, this, you know, this is a live dynamic process that you and I and our team are building. But I was in this conversation recently with leaders in an organization, and we were trying to get there, and they said, I don't really have a template for how to do that, like how to find that.
Derek Hudson:The question that came to my mind is, what's the last big decision that you made that was really hard? And the answer was, well, it's a big decision, and we haven't made it, but we're I I really or they really felt like they had to address a pricing strategy. And, of course, the tension of a pricing strategy is we're here to make our customers happy, but if we don't pay attention to price, we can do all the work for the customer and not make enough money to survive. Yeah. And so there's, like, a very natural tension there, and they hadn't been talking about it.
Derek Hudson:It's been in the back of their mind. It's easier to not bring it up with the customer, But that's but there's a there's a tension there. And so that helped them move forward on defining the purposes of the organization. And then that will help them, you know, design a system that, you know, goes up the middle of that tension and is and is energized on on both sides, sort of the what the customer needs and what the company needs.
Dave Kane:So was that the path to addressing that tension was to to take that So those one really difficult decision they need to make to circle back and address it in purpose x and purpose y. But then do you tie that back into the process? Or how do you how do you find resolution on something that challenging?
Derek Hudson:Well, well, the the idea here is that, you know, the organization exists. The tensions are there. We need to uncover them and then and then kinda put them where they belong. Like, if you think even about the idea of flow, if you have water coming off a glacier that hits a flat plain, that water is pretty much useful. You have a swamp.
Derek Hudson:But if you have if you have water that, that cuts a narrow channel, now you've got now you've got flow, and there's there's something you can do with that water. And then, you know, and we're we're sitting here in in Edmonton, and we're downstream from the Bighorn Dam that dam's the North Saskatchewan River right up by the mountains. You know, so that's that's an example of that, you know, drivers and constraints kind of aspect to, to tension is if you want flow, you need 22 things. You need a, you know, a driving force, and then you need a restraining force, and then you channel it. And and if you wanna get, really high output, then you gotta take your flow and put it in a tight constraint, just like your garden hose.
Derek Hudson:And and so, you know, having having these tensions in front of us, we say like, why is this hard? How do we make that help us make the best decisions? And so some of it's purpose x, purpose y, and some of it's designing the flow of the system, which is, you know, there's this one part of the system that's the highest value. We need to make sure that it flows at the maximum rate. And to do that, it needs to have a push and a pull.
Derek Hudson:And a push to supplies of inventory going into it, and the pull is there needs to be a customer out there somewhere that wants it at the at the rate that you can produce it. And, you know, that's the natural tension. And so this idea we've talked about a few episodes about inertia and lacking momentum, that the key to getting past inertia is force. Right? If if you have an object at rest, the only way to get in motion is you have to apply, you know, accelerating force to it.
Derek Hudson:And so what's what we're looking for in organizations, what's that tension? Is there you know, and it could be there's this unfilled meat in the market. It could be that we believe that our cuss that our potential customers are being served in a less effective way by a competitor, and, they only need to have experience with our product, to sort of kind of release flow of value for them. You know, that's another tension.
Dave Kane:Yep. That all makes sense. And and and then the overlay, you know, you don't have unlimited resources, and that's just I like the the analogy of of bringing things in. The constraints are are, you know, focusing the water, focusing the river, so that you're you're maximizing what you have, but also applying this this balance between, you know, how much can this how much can this system handle Yeah. Between the driver forcing it in and the constraints, you know, ability to not not break.
Derek Hudson:Well, and then and then that and keep going. That gives you, that gives you a way of talking to your customer that you didn't have, which is, you know, I have this pipeline, and I've fine tuned it so it flows really fast, but I can't point it everywhere. And, you know, if we if you want our help, then, you know, you have to make it worth our while in a sense, because we're not good stewards if we're dribbling it over to you, and there's another use that's that's more productive to that that customer, and they see the value in it, then that creates value in our organization. And and so even making like, I think the fundamental decisions that an organization needs to make, make so much sense when you think of it in terms of, like, those those forces and those tensions and what's the best way to deploy them. And and you don't get that from, you know, sort of a static org chart or a list of goals that you call a business plan.
Derek Hudson:It's it's Yeah.
Dave Kane:So then when we're talking about these tensions on on the system, and you've kind of done the the purpose. I mean, you've just been done a bit of the path of the drivers and constraints. I'm curious how that same sort of dynamic of tensions within the people side
Derek Hudson:Yeah.
Dave Kane:Are going to lead to, you know, this system that's producing the flow that you want.
Derek Hudson:Well, let's let's pull this together. And we talked about, Edmonton Oilers and hockey and stuff like that. And they get they got to flow. We saw, you know, these moments of flow that were fantastic. At no point in time during the playoff run did those guys have an easy job.
Derek Hudson:At no point were they not stressed. And so if you and that's a workplace. I mean, they get paid a lot of money to do that, but, you can translate the principles to another environment. A stress free workplace doesn't sound like one that's where people are gonna get to individual flow. But there's useless stress, and there's dysfunctional stress that nobody needs.
Derek Hudson:And then there's the stress of, you know, an individual being rising to the challenge and doing everything they can to accomplish, you know, a worthy goal. That's stress too, but I don't I don't think people have to go to the doctor to get help with that. I think they have a party after, and they tell stories for the rest of their life about it.
Dave Kane:Yeah. Because in looking at the the people, there there's the view from from the employees, from the individual, from the team member. They have their needs from the system, from the organization. And then what does the organization need from them? And in the sports analogy, there's that clarity of here's what the organization needs from you.
Dave Kane:Here's what your contribution is into the system. And then there's the reward or the the individual knowing, here's what I'm getting from it, and and here's the satisfaction. Here's the growth. Here's the role I'm playing. So I think that that clarity of communication in there, that part of the flow seems to really aid getting the system working properly there.
Derek Hudson:And and that's why we we only focus on this idea of drivers, which is I don't think we're unique, but it's not in in a lot of stuff that focuses on, you know, constraints and limitations is that there's this there's this psychological, if you wanna call it that, you can even call it sort of like a a spiritual energy where people get, you know, charged up for a purpose. That like, it doesn't show up anywhere in the financial statements, but it's there or it's not there. Yeah. And, and if you want system flow, it has the people have to be part of it. Like, you can't you can't you know, a consultant can't design it for you.
Derek Hudson:You can't buy it in a, you know, downloadable app. It's it's the way people interact. It's what you what you ask them to do and why they why they would wanna do it. And and that that energy that everyone brings, and then like you said, it feeds on everyone feeds on each other. That's that's yeah.
Derek Hudson:You can you need that to get to system flow. Like a bad a badly designed processor or a purpose that people don't understand isn't gonna get you to system flow. But if you have all of that and you don't have the people, you don't get flow.
Dave Kane:Right. So to our original question of sort of how do you get it, is it overly overly simplistic to sort of say, the nature of a system means everything's gotta be interconnected and in balance, but it is, you know, elements of that tension between your purpose x and purpose y, that that tension and balance between your drivers and constraints, and that that tension between, you know, challenging people and rewarding them and and having them know their place in it. But all those kinda start mixing together into complicated soup that is your process. But you need all that working together to find your flow.
Derek Hudson:Well well, yes. And I think, Dave, that you just described essential dynamics in 2 sentences. I would just challenge you on the complicated soup. Because once you work through that, now we're at the simplicity on the other side of complexity, and we have flow. And it's, it doesn't feel like we're gonna get there sometimes, but when you do, it's not that all the complexity goes away.
Derek Hudson:It's just that simplicity rides on top of it. And and you've got people who are handling complex tasks, but they're doing it in context.
Dave Kane:And it doesn't seem as complicated anymore. Yeah.
Derek Hudson:It does. It does. I know. And you and you get the additive power of everyone's experience and intellect. And if you go back, I really liked your example of your some of your early career experiences, because what did you get out of that?
Derek Hudson:You got stories, you got skills and confidence, and, you probably don't really even remember exactly how much you made that month.
Dave Kane:Oh, yeah. I know. I remember that too. No. You're right.
Dave Kane:And it's it's the sense of value that you looked back on. And and most people have this when you sort of ask, well, what was the what was the best part of your career, the most, you know, the the most memorable time? And it's always back towards, I had this sort of challenge. And here's how everything just sort of worked together. And it's it's no different with the the companies and their processes.
Derek Hudson:That's absolutely right. So that's the quest. That's the story. It's the real deal, and system flow is where it's at. It's it's not easy to get to, but it's worth every effort.
Derek Hudson:So I guess that's the part the time where we say, thanks to Dave and thanks to Brynn, and look us up at un get unconstrained.com. Let's continue the conversation, and let's think think think high because you need to consider your quest.