Welcome back to House Lights, your one stop shop for everything you need to hear about this week in the world of entertainment. As always, I'm your host, Liz Nas, joined with my beautiful, wonderful cohost
Claire:Claire Donohoe.
Liz:And a very special guest today
Melody:Melody Meyer.
Liz:Thank you so much for being on this wonderful episode that me and Claire have talked. We haven't talked a lot about doing this episode, but I feel like me and Claire talked a lot about this concept. Yes. We're writers.
Liz:We're poets. Really, Claire is a writer and a poet, but I like to tag along sometimes. And so today, we're gonna be talking about the Rupi Corification of poetry and the concept of Rupi Cor as a poet and sort of what's what that's done to Gen Z art. And I'm you know, we we talked about how I was carrying the last episode with RuPaul, so Claire's really gonna take take the lead. See, Ronan is really gonna take the lead this time.
Liz:Okay. So go ahead, Claire. Give us a little background.
Claire:Yeah. So we're throwing around words like well, words, the name Rupi Kaur, who's an artist, a a poet, spoken word, and page poet, and then the idea of instapoetry, which is a term I learned about in preparation for this episode. A definition that I stole from the Internet being it's a style of short, visually striking poetry created specifically for social media, combination of Instagram and poetry. So just a bit of background. We'll get into more of it as we go, but it's it has good and bad qualities, many people say.
Claire:Some good qualities being, like, it's very accessible. Social media makes more short form poetry, easier to include in educational spaces for some people, getting diverse perspectives, cognitive accessibility. It's not Shakespeare in that form. I think a lot of people are turned off to poetry because they think it has to rhyme or they think it has to sound Shakespearean. And, Rupi Kaur is an example of a writer who, I must say, like, revolutionized that idea around, like, 2013, '20 '14.
Claire:For those who don't know, Rupi Kaur is the author of Milk and Honey and The Sun and Her Flowers. She's won many awards. I believe she has, like, an Amazon special in which she's doing a whole show dedicated to poetry. She's appeared on many talk shows. She's kind of changed the game for, like, what some might classify as modern poetry or instapoetry.
Claire:So as someone who posts poetry on Instagram myself, I would like to hear everyone's, like, connection to not even just poetry, but, like, writing online and your relationship to consuming it and kind of, like, us being Gen z, do we even notice a diff a difference between the two? Obviously, there's a difference between, like, learning Shakespeare in, like, a high school English class versus finding those shorter homes, if this is making sense. I'm trying to not get too, like, far into my MLA notes as Liz put them, but I have a lot to, like, kinda go through and this one article I read that I really quite enjoyed. But we'll start just kind of at the top with everyone's
Liz:Sort of Sort of relationships this
Claire:general take on this now that the background has been laid.
Liz:I can I'll I'll go first a little bit. I have always been drawn to poetry, specifically. I, Again, I feel like I'm getting into your notes, like, immediately. Yep. Go.
Liz:But, like, the idea of how accessible, like, this poetry was was really the the first time you ever saw that was with Rupi Kaur and, like, that a poem can really be just, like, three notes. And so I feel like when we were in middle school and just, like, getting through puberty and feeling all our emotions, you could just open your notes app and write a couple, like, things, and you called that poetry. And so I feel like that's sort of how I was introduced to poetry was, like, just getting your emotions out in a couple words and, like, almost haiku haiku? Haiku ish. Sorry.
Liz:Haiku is an anime, volleyball anime. My bad. I'm illiterate. So, anyways, yeah. I was, like, super into RupiCore, like, when milk, milk and honey first came out.
Liz:I have I still have the books on my
Claire:Oh, yeah.
Liz:On my bookshelf at home as well as send her flowers and then a bunch of other, like, people that, like, self published after her. And there was, like, there was Amanda Lovelace Mhmm. Who did I it's it was all, like, fairy tale based
Claire:Yeah. Yeah.
Liz:Poetry, but it was, like, very much in the same thing of, like, little sketch and a couple words, and, like, that was a poem. So I definitely was inspired by that, and that was sort of, like, other than, like, Shel Silverstein when you're a kid, that was, like, the first introduction to, like, poetry Yeah.
Claire:For me. It's a very, like, I can do this too Right. Type of
Liz:I can't draw, though.
Claire:Vibe. Yeah. I should have noted, like, Rupi Kaur is also known for her, like, very thin, like, delicate kind of drawing. She's a very good artist. But, yeah, very much like a I can do this as well.
Claire:Yeah. It's it's accessible in that way.
Liz:So, like, I loved it, like, in middle school, but, like, now I definitely feel a little bit more disconnected because you look back and you're like, oh, like, this is what I would write if I was in middle school and didn't have a lot of articulate feelings. Then you're like, oh, but that's like, this is a, like, a prized poet, I guess. And so it feels a little corny now, but I'm gonna let Melanie go ahead now.
Melody:Yeah. So the first the first poetry book I ever got was Adultolescence by Gabbie Hanna.
Liz:And and I'm literally going to bring this up. This is so
Claire:vulnerable because that's on my shelf at home. Yeah. Like, my childhood bedroom shelf. Yes. Sorry.
Melody:Please tell us what was it was. At the top of my Christmas list 2017, and I got it. I was I was, I don't even know that like, I loved it, and I thought it was just so, like, deep. Obviously, you think everything's kinda deep when you're that age. But, yeah.
Melody:And like you said, Amanda Lovelace, I had one of her books, and I think I had Milk and Honey. I don't really remember it, but I think I did have it. And, yeah, like you said, like, in middle school, when you're reading it, you're like, wow. Like, this is something I can do. And I definitely totally forgot about this until just now.
Melody:Like, early in high school or eighth grade, I did have, like, a Tumblr blog where I tried to, like, make some make some poems because I was inspired by Gabbie Hanna and, like, Ruby Chord, all that that I was saying. So, yeah, I think, like you said, like, it kind of is accessible when you're young, and it, like, inspires you. But looking back, it like, what I was writing on Tumblr and what I can see rereading adult lessons, like, you could take, like, the names off and say who wrote which, and I wouldn't be able to tell you.
Liz:That's what you so you can't give us, like, a sample of what you were
Melody:writing on top of
Claire:with your journal.
Liz:Oh, I get, like, the
Melody:one. I don't think I wanna, like, go back and try to find that Tumblr blog that is in the past.
Liz:Well, I think that's a good point about, like, the Tumblr thing because it wasn't just about, like, Rupi Kaur's, like, books or the poems. Yeah. She was really about the sample. Right. But it was really about the social media that, like, followed it and, like, people trying to emulate that style or, like, posting her stuff in, like, very, like, dramatic artsy ways with, like, the I don't know.
Liz:I I need to pull up an example, but I I'm really glad that you brought up Gabbie Hanna's thing because Me too. I were but at the same time, I think that it's so because they are so similar, like, Ruby Kors and, like, Gabbie Hanna's. Mhmm. But everybody thought, let's shit on Gabbie Hanna because she's just, like, an influencer. But, really, again, I think, like, yeah, if you take off the names, like, a lot of that that poetry, that style, you couldn't tell Right.
Liz:Whose is whose. But because Gabbie Hanna was an influencer, then it's obviously awful. And, like, that's what that was, like, how I was that I mean, it's bad. I'm not saying that it's good. It's bad.
Liz:But I it's it's kinda weird that, like, Ruby Cor, who's, like, considered, like, a poet can write it, and it's, like, this is this this is great. This is very intellectual. And I definitely think that it's more than hers is definitely, I would say, even though corny, still better than Gabbie Hanna's. But it's kinda weird how we break up, like, who can or cannot write poetry.
Claire:Yeah. Who can do it that way. Yeah. And it it not come across as
Liz:listen to Gabbie Hanna songs. I mean, it's, like, the same way. Wow.
Claire:Yes. Anyways I used to love Gabbie Hanna.
Liz:That's crazy.
Claire:Okay. Yeah. So I'm gonna echo the sentiment of, like, at the time, of course, I was like, this is the greatest thing ever. And before I go any further in this episode, I do wanna say, like, RupiCore's books are still on my shelves. Amanda Lovelace's books, Gabby Hanna's books.
Claire:I you can probably somewhere find on the Internet, like, my months of, like, imitation of Ruby Core. Like, I too was trying to write poetry in that style. Ansi wrote it and posting it so all my friends and family could read that, but that's neither here nor there. I think it's valuable in its own way, and I I do hold the belief that, like you said, Liz, the content on social media that followed probably would have showed up eventually, but I don't think it would have showed up in the, like, quantity and at the time it did without someone like Rupi Kaur kind of, like, opening those doors. So I think it's very valuable in its own way in that style of poetry.
Claire:I personally don't feel connected to it anymore, which has been interesting as I've continued to still share my work online specifically and change styles kind of based on how I feel, but also, you know, what I'm consuming. I do think that poetry that is it's not to say short poetry isn't effective for me, but it's really poetry without very specific details.
Liz:Right.
Claire:Olivia Gatwood is one of my favorite poets, and one time she said that she found, people connect within the details. So, like, she was writing a very hyper specific memory with a friend, and she's like, well, I'm not gonna put this in a poem because who's gonna relate to this? And it's kind of I believe, like, it's better to have five people really, really deeply relate to it than a hundred people kind of, like, kind of get it Yeah. Or feel kind of connected.
Liz:That's sort of a question. I feel like, do do you write for the masses? I mean, like, that because, like, Ruby Core, like, really is about, like, writing in the broadest way Mhmm. To, you know, because she has to sell a book. Right?
Liz:So it's like
Claire:Yeah.
Liz:Trying to appeal to the masses, but, like, is that the point of poetry, or are you trying to appeal to yourself? I yeah. What do you feel about that?
Claire:Another point kind of further down on my my little notes of, like, why this is criticized is or, like, Gen z art general is criticized because people are starting to say that it's too, I'll try to find what it what it what I wrote. But, like, there's an over commercialization of it, so people are accused of just doing it for profit. So when you say, like, you need to write a broader thing because you're gonna have to sell a book, people are accused of doing that for all types of mediums for Gen ZR. I personally think this could be a whole other discussion. We could be here for hours.
Claire:But, like, an artist should write for themselves first, whatever that looks like looks like to them, and if people can relate to it. And let's say, Ruby Core is like, this is perfect because I've written what could be considered vague. I know what I meant by this in my own personal experience that I'm not just not sharing the details of. And other people can walk away with their own connection to it as well. That's just as effective.
Claire:Not for everyone, but it's still effective. So I do think an artist should be writing for themselves first or else they're gonna get into a little bit of trouble or burnout or they're gonna get caught for just doing it for money. But I don't think it's, like, the worst thing to also consider writing it for, like, a big crowd if it worked for her. I mean, she's super successful from it. So that's my take on Yeah.
Liz:I'm sorry.
Melody:I was just, like, so zoned out watching you Google whoopie car poems bad.
Liz:Well, I was trying to find a good example of just, like, the poems that are, like, a couple words. I now you I just got Sorry. Me showing my bias. Hi. Oh, god.
Liz:So Ruby Carr poem is bad. I just wanna read a couple, and I wanted to first give a couple examples of, like, here's a couple words, and this is called a poem. And then also then ask the crowd. Good. Do you like it?
Liz:Good or bad?
Claire:Do you think V
Liz:is So better. We began with honesty. Let it let us end in it too. That's the whole thing. That's called us by Ruby Korn.
Liz:Okay. Here's a okay.
Claire:Should we snap?
Liz:He isn't coming back, whispered my head. He has to, sobbed my heart.
Claire:That's it? That's it.
Liz:That's the word. Yep. That's all.
Melody:That's just a sentence. I feel like that's not a poem. Right. It is a sentence. And I feel like that's what most of hers are.
Melody:Like, I don't know.
Liz:I do not need the kind of love that is draining. I want someone who energizes me. Like, that's, like, that's not even a start of a person.
Claire:National bestseller.
Liz:She's a national bestseller of two different
Claire:I will say that she well, I was talking about, like, people accused of doing it for profit or, like, as if the person is the brand. She successfully did that because, respectfully, I don't think
Liz:her home
Claire:could sell alone.
Liz:She Brand. Brand. Brand.
Claire:She has like I said, she did that I wanna say it's an Amazon performance. Like, you can look it up. She's standing in a beautiful gown.
Liz:She it's
Claire:like a sold out theater, and she's I've seen this before. She's performing her works both from memory and reading her books. She's appeared on talk shows, like I said. Like, she's really worked to provide a lot of that context to her pieces in the public eye, which I think is important considering they're a sentence long. But she made that work, like, the person as the brand.
Claire:Right. So I guess, like, then it's the question of, is is that fine if you can make it work? Can your poems be a sentence long? Or should your poetry be able to stand alone without you as the brand as well?
Liz:The way they leave tells you everything. The answer is Rubikorn. So does that answer your question? What? That's all.
Liz:That's it, babe. So now I wanna ask I think you bring up a great subject. I'm not getting into it. Good or bad?
Claire:Okay.
Liz:Rupi Kaur, period. Good or bad. I'm actually gonna let you start.
Claire:Yeah. Please.
Melody:I just think, like I don't wanna say her poems are plain, but they're plain. Like, she doesn't, like, leave any room for interpretation, really. I think that's, like, my biggest problem with her is that, like, she just gives you a sentence of just just, like, straight up. Like, the the way they leave tells you everything you need to know or whatever she said. Like, okay.
Melody:Like Yes, sir. Okay.
Claire:Yeah.
Liz:No. And some of these reads sorry. I found another one. I'm just scrolling through. This one sort of reads like a motivational, like, poster in, like, a bland workspace.
Liz:If you were born with the weakness to fall, you were born with the strength to rise.
Claire:How is that doesn't make sense. Sorry.
Liz:It's just like peep duality? What? You don't believe in in female duality?
Claire:Or defenders.
Liz:Not that. Anyway
Melody:Yeah. Yeah. She it's just like and I've seen videos of her reading it, and it's like like, she tries to make it sound really powerful, like, really powerful, but it's it's not. Like, I mean oh, I mean, you know, I won't say it's not because I think there are good messages in there, but I just think, like
Liz:one message. The one message Singular message.
Melody:In there. But I just I just think, like, she could have put more detail into it and, like, I don't know, made it more artistic, like, for like, to leave more room for interpretation rather than just telling us flat out, like, what we should be taking
Liz:out of it. Poems. These are like thesis. Like, a that's like a thesis of a poem. This one just says sorry.
Liz:I'm I just keep doing more. Other women's bodies are not our battlegrounds.
Claire:That's it. See, that that just, like True.
Melody:Yeah. And, like But And, like
Liz:both. But also And but, like and see, that has meaning to it. Like, that we can like, I think people can resonate with it, but, like, there's not much more to, like, marinate on. It that's not gonna stay with me.
Claire:Right. She doesn't give us a lot or, like, short really short form poetry like this doesn't really give us a lot to, like, to dissect or, like, take away from or, like, do the mental that. Right. Do the mental work that many people associate with, not if a poem is good or bad, but just if it's effective or not, which you can have a bad poem, but it's effective. It leaves you much to think about.
Claire:And I feel like she doesn't even do she's not even doing that.
Liz:No. She's not even on
Claire:the scale of good or bad because there's not even enough content to judge.
Liz:No. And that's There's no she's
Claire:not making an argument. She's not comparing or putting multiple lines or images together.
Liz:There's just not a lot of components of literature in this, which is, like, okay. This is then it brings me to the point of, like, with these books like Milk and Honey and, like, Center of Flowers, it feels like it's a race. Like, try like, reading through it. You can read through this book and digest it all within, like, a day, within a couple hours because it's, like, every page is just a couple lines or whatever. And it's, like, was the point to get through it fast so you buy another?
Liz:I just find out there.
Claire:Yeah. It doesn't ask a lot of the audience. No. Outside of maybe
Liz:the point of poetry?
Claire:Maybe agreeing with it. That's all subjective. This is hard because it's subjective. That's why, like, I don't wanna say this is bad. It's just and I'm a believer okay.
Claire:Actually, this is a side question for you guys. I was about to say, it's not bad. It's just not for me. I know people that really disagree with that concept and their that statement, and they're like, no. It can just, like, be objectively bad.
Claire:Oh, yeah. But when it comes to art, I do genuinely believe, like, some things just aren't out for you. Like, she has it's clearly working for her. She has millions of fans. Right.
Claire:I'm just not of that camp at this time. Does she still have
Liz:fans there?
Claire:I think so. Do you guys still do you what's your take on the whole, like, this is just not for me. It's still real art, but it's just not for me. Or even the concept of, like you real art. Sorry.
Claire:That was, like, a million things at once.
Liz:No. But I see what you're saying.
Claire:I'm just getting
Liz:just getting passionate about this.
Melody:I I agree with what you said. Like, yeah, there are things that I can look at, and I can be like, yeah. I can see where, like I can see the what's the word I'm looking for? Appeal to I can see the appeal, but I don't personally enjoy it. But, yeah, there are things where you look at something, you're like, no, that's just straight up bad.
Melody:Okay. And I think this is kind of a little off topic, but, like, Rupi Kaur in, like, her simplicity of her poems inspires people to be like, oh, I can do that, and then they post their little poems online. And I have seen a lot Little bit of toy. Keyword, little. Short poems.
Melody:I have seen a lot of, like, those TikToks where it's just someone recording their, like, MacBook screen in Scott Street by Phoebe Bridgers is in the background, and it's, like, two sentences
Claire:and Hundreds of thousands of likes.
Melody:Yeah. And I'm like, this is just straight up bad. Like, poetry is not your calling. I'm sorry.
Claire:Right. Well, that's almost like I think of those videos, and I just think you're emulating an aesthetic. Like, you're taking almost at that point, like, you're taking Scott Street. And Scott Street that has more words and things going on than what we're looking at on your MacBook screen. But you're, like, taking that and trying to further that even just a little bit with your own two sentences.
Claire:And then that makes me just think that that person in this example is is just following an aesthetic. You're not actually, like
Liz:I think there is that, like, Rupi Kaur aesthetic, though, that, like, people, like, loves when
Claire:she's like it's very, Which isn't a bad thing.
Liz:I don't know. Is it the very beginnings of clean girl? Maybe.
Claire:Oh, god.
Liz:It's kind of giving that with, like, the syndrome.
Claire:I guess. Yeah. And I like how you're kind of breaking into this, like, performance voice because that's kind of what she sounds like when she performs it.
Liz:I didn't leave because I stopped loving you. I left because the longer I stayed, the less I loved myself.
Claire:And the crowd goes wild. And as someone who does spoken word poetry, I can make fun of this. I'm allowed to do that, guys. So before anyone says, she's just emoting, I get that. But the content also matters.
Claire:Leave us with something to think about, Ruby core.
Liz:No. It's just, like, yeah, you're like, okay. That's what I read, and then you just flip the next page.
Claire:Right.
Liz:Right. Yeah. I think that art can be objectively bad.
Claire:Yeah. What what are your I guess, also, before you answer, what are your, like, metrics? Like, what's the difference between this is objectively bad or this is not for me? Is it length for you? Is it I don't think it's length.
Claire:Is it if you can tell that person put in a lot of, like, original thought and effort?
Liz:I think that's what it is. Okay. You go ahead.
Melody:Like the the MacBook screens I see on TikTok, it's it's just like So real. I don't know. I feel like it lacks the, like, emotion or just I don't know. I feel like a main thing that makes poetry poetry is, like, symbols and, like, speaking not just, like, plain like, making image like, imagery is what I'm trying to say. Like, good imagery is what makes a good poem.
Melody:Mhmm. And so I think when I see, like, these TikTok poets, like, it it's just very it doesn't have any depth, and I think that's to me what I'm just like, oh, okay. Yeah. That's all.
Liz:Yeah.
Claire:Right. It's almost like a journal entry at that point
Liz:where a poem is And that's not bad if that's what you're going for, but then don't call yourself a poet. Exactly.
Claire:Right. Right. It doesn't have to be, like, poster journal entry, poster lines about being her back end. Do it. But also yeah.
Liz:It's not a poem. Yeah. I think that things can be bad when there's obviously no soul in it. Okay. Like, I think that We're
Claire:going there, guys.
Liz:You know what I'm saying? Like, there's I mean, like, I sorry, Rupi. But, like, some of the things are just it just seems like she was hitting deadline. And, like, I think I literally remember, like, with Gabby, Hannah, she, like, made a video about it. And she was like, yeah.
Liz:I was hitting deadline, and I had to fill pages at one point. Don't admit that. That. And she, like, said that. By the way, this is totally a side point.
Liz:This is about Gabby Hanna. If I went crazy, I think that I would act the exact same way that Gabby Hanna does.
Melody:I agree.
Liz:Yeah. No. Like, you're like, I agree for you, babe. No. No.
Liz:But, like, I truly think that, like I don't know. I resonate with Gabbie Hanna in, like, a weird way, where I think that if I, like, lost it, like, I would be like Gabbie Hanna. I posted that one time in my private story, and so many people stood up and was like, yeah. Oh, don't say that to me. Anyways, I'm super vulnerable.
Claire:Wow.
Liz:Anyways Thank
Claire:you for vulnerability sharing. Yeah.
Liz:But, anyways, I lost where I was. But, yeah, it excite it kinda feels like we're you're hitting deadline, and you don't have many words, and I just have to fill a page. So I'm gonna do just, like, a thinly drawn sun and, like, three words, and that's it. But, like, I don't feel that way about all of Rupi Kaur's poems. I've because actually, this past winter break when my mom redid my room and she put together my bookshelf and everything, and so I saw that I saw Rupi Kaur and I was, like, clocked.
Liz:And so I pulled it out and I read and some of it was longer Yeah. And some of it wasn't bad. But I think that there's also this I don't know. Like, her brand is that she writes these short pro poems. And I think that there is a balance for her between, like, brand and actual poetry.
Liz:And I think that some of it leans more towards aesthetic, and aesthetic can just be, like, really bland. Aesthetic can just be really empty of, like, actual, like, thought or anything. So I don't know. I I think some of these are objectively bad because there wasn't thought put into it. But if, say, like, someone was a poet and it's obviously clear that they're, like, they have something to say and I just don't agree with it, that's when I'm like, okay.
Liz:This just isn't for me.
Claire:Mhmm. Yeah. Anyways Good answers, guys. Thanks. I'm liking.
Liz:Let me
Claire:look at my for more. My notes here. Yeah. You pull up more more poems. I guess I'll just kind of go over back to, like, instapoetry as a genre and its its growth.
Claire:A lot of what I'm about to say comes from the article instapoetry characteristics, themes, and criticisms.
Liz:Okay. Did you research?
Claire:As I said a little bit earlier, we have a value in its accessibility. Poetry reading does not need to be a separate endeavor for people, but it's integrated into, like, a daily routine of communication. You can open your phone and just find it, and it's good for, like, information gathering or kind of, like, digital scrapbooking in a way. You have immediate access to people's more, like, human thoughts on world events. Thing?
Claire:Yeah. I mean, well yeah. Like, you like, world events, you have people from all over the world that could kind of contribute to that dialogue
Liz:opine on that? In in
Claire:an artistic way. Like I said earlier, cognitive accessibility as well. It's not Shakespeare. Not to say that Shakespeare is, like he's just the point that I reference because a lot of people are, like, turned off by that, which valid. Diverse perspectives have an easier time kind of flowing in to a more inclusive, like, social media space.
Claire:Like I said, immediate access to commentary. Instapoetry can be seen as an assistant or a valid contribution to collective action. That's a quote from the article kind of talking about, like, it's a marker of where we are in time, and I think that that was really interesting kind of, like, cataloging that I hadn't thought of. And it's also easier to include in educational settings because it's a little bit more digestible in some ways, or just the language is more familiar. Not to say that the poem needs to be digestible, but more familiar language.
Claire:Once again, calling to Shakespeare who people are like, I don't even know what this word is. I'm not gonna read it. And I think that's coming from someone who's also interested in teaching down the line. I think it's really important to, like, bring literature into classrooms that people enjoy and want to actually engage with because I think that will turn them off to a less that's a different conversation.
Liz:But
Claire:yeah. And then really quick, the downsides, we've already kind of touched on, lack of artistic or literary merit. So kind of shrinking down concepts and not demanding much of your audience. Taking away what we know a poem to be, rhyme, metaphor, rhythm, meter, and people say that that renders it not as real poetry. Not that every poem needs to rhyme or have some type of rhythm, but you get what I mean.
Claire:Enter short prose or the journal entry. That's totally fine. I'm a fan of this. I do it myself, but I understand why some people are not or why some people are upset that it's called poetry when it's not. It's prose ish.
Claire:And then people accused of doing it for profit, a quick fix, meeting deadlines, doing it because you can, imitating someone's work because you do have so much access to it that you can. And that's my spiel. People are with it. People are against it.
Liz:Yeah. Those are really Those are really great notes. I have four yet.
Claire:Please. And now you two talk for the rest of this.
Liz:I have I have four thoughts. Gone crazy. Number one, who cares if it's called poetry or prose?
Claire:True.
Liz:It's just people's thoughts and what they're writing. What do you think about that, Claire? What do you what do you think about that, guys?
Claire:I think Does it matter? I think who cares? Yes. I don't personally care. But, also, if you are, like, dying on the hill that before, if you're dying on the hill that this is poetry, don't be a little bit offended when people take their definitions of poetry and your harsh definition of poetry and compare the two and don't like your work.
Claire:Like, don't be surprised if that happens. Because if we wanna call it so subjective, that has two sides of a coin. Right? Like, I don't really care if it's poetry or prose. Okay.
Claire:Well, on the flip side, you can't really be attached to it if other people don't care, and they make their assumptions on it, if that makes sense.
Liz:Yeah. I get what you're saying. But do you have
Claire:an answer to this?
Liz:Do you have an answer to
Claire:this, Melody? Sorry.
Liz:I'm, like, trying to hold on to my thoughts.
Claire:Sorry. Yes. Sorry.
Liz:I'll make little notes.
Melody:No. Yeah. Like, just what you said. Like yeah. I don't know.
Melody:Yeah.
Claire:I feel like it's easier to define when we have conversations like this. But when I'm actually reading it, I don't care.
Melody:Right. Yeah. It's It's
Claire:just the thoughts.
Liz:Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, does, like, does it really matter if it's prose or poetry? Does it does one undermine the other? I personally don't think so.
Liz:Okay. Sorry. That was my fourth thought. My third one was, I definitely can't throw stones because I don't write poet I mean, I I do write poetry. I don't write poetry that rhymes.
Liz:I say I definitely write more, free flowing, more just like it almost is prose, honestly. So maybe I am Rupi Kaur, but anyways. Not like no. Like, I write She's in the room with us. I write I I write longer.
Liz:Doesn't mean that it's
Claire:Liz writes wonderful poetry, everybody.
Liz:Stop. Well, I don't and
Claire:I've seen
Liz:I'm never gonna see wrote it. Like, I'll never, like, l wrote it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I just don't think that, like, I could I could I don't think I'm on that level yet. Like, see wrote it is just, like, peak and, like, l wrote it would be, like, not great.
Liz:But, anyways, the second thought that I had was totally true about, like, being accessible to, like, diverse, like, like, perspectives. Because, like, the publishing industry in general is just, like, super historically, like, racist and exclusive. Right. So, like, to have, like, Instapoetry, I think, is so valuable for and, like, thinking about, like, shout out five one seven poetry room. Like like, super, like, I don't know, inclusive spaces, spaces where, like, specifically is to lift up marginalized voices.
Liz:Like, social media has done that for the last however long that it's been around.
Claire:And so I Self publishing too. Like, social media helps point people to self publishing, and that can be like, Rupi Kaur self published her first book, promoted on Instagram. Here she is now. So Alright. I agree.
Liz:And then my first thought that came live I like that I went backwards. Working backwards here. And this is my thought for both of you, but also I do wanna ask you because you wanna go into teaching. Would you teach, like, Rupi Kaur and, like, very contemporary poetry? Or do you think that you should or, like, do you think about I don't know.
Liz:Like, the I feel like there's definitely, like, a merit to the classics, and then you can work your way back Yeah. To contemporary poetry. Or do you think it's more important now to focus on, like, modern poetry and then work your way up? I don't know. Thoughts?
Claire:It's a good question. I would say, off the top of my head, I think it's important to teach both.
Liz:Mhmm.
Claire:I'm not gonna tell let's say I have a good hypothetical group of students in front of me. I wouldn't be like, you should be looking toward this one. I'm just gonna give you both options. I'm gonna make sure we all know the difference. I'm gonna make sure you know the, like, criticisms and positives of both of these, and then you have the agency to write.
Claire:However, I can't once you put the pen to page, not to be, like, corny or whatever. Like, I can't tell you what to write or how to do it unless it's, like, an assignment or, like, some curriculum thing, obviously. But I think teaching both in that way, if that kind of answers your question. I think there's obviously importance. Yeah.
Claire:Mara in both. Because one kind of helps you understand the other and how time has influenced it. And I do think it would be a little bit impossible to try to, especially now, teach a class and not mention the influence of social media, the influence of, like, self publishing, those things. Insta Insta poetry too. So both is my answer.
Liz:Awesome. Sorry. I just someone made a weird noise outside. That's okay. Melanie, do you have any thoughts on that?
Melody:Yeah. I would say the same thing, especially, like, what you just said about especially now having to, like, show the influence of social media. I think, like, that is so important. And I think in a hundred years, when we look back on Insta poetry, it's like right now, we might think it's corny and it it's, like, simple, but, like, I think it's a reflection of the time we're in. Right.
Melody:Like, I would say kind of I wouldn't say, like, our culture is very minimalistic, but I would say we turn more towards, like, minimalistic aesthetics, like, as a majority, I think. Yeah. And so I think, like, the plain white, like, little pair paragraph. I say that in quotes. Three lines.
Melody:And, like, like, simple little drawing on there. I think that is, like, a reflection of the times we're living in. So I think, like, hypothetically, if I were teaching a class, yes, I would teach, like, more classic and more, like, yeah, just like the classic examples of poetry, but also, like, these more modern approaches because it is representative of, like, our world right now
Liz:Yeah.
Melody:And, like, what people create right now.
Liz:Well, yeah, and it's, like, speaking specifically to the social media, like, generation of, like, you have less attention span. Here's three lines of poetry. Take it with what you with what you will. Right. Either you will scroll on or you'll think about it for longer.
Liz:Right. Just like a TikTok. Yeah. What I wrote down in my notes because I didn't wanna forget the phrase that I thought of when you were talking about this. It's like the recession pop of poetry.
Liz:Like, it's really just like this, like, down to the basics. Like, here's a couple good beats and lyrics that some that might mean something you probably doesn't. Mhmm. There it is. It's the recession pop of poetry.
Liz:Yeah.
Claire:Boom. I think your point about attention span is really interesting. And I also kinda wanna bring in the topic of, like, what is real art or, like, what classifies a poem, a poem, a painting, a painting, all all that stuff. I think Gen z gets blamed a lot for not producing real art or something that doesn't, like, say anything because it's not breaking your brain maybe to, like, try to figure out.
Liz:Classic, so it doesn't matter. Right.
Claire:That doesn't necessarily mean it's not real art. I mean, I Right. I feel like I feel like art is the I get upset when people try to, like, really put it in a box in this way because I feel like art is the one thing, like, there people really cannot fathom, at least in my opinion, that there are no bounds on it. People want to assign and categorize so bad, so they'll say it's good or bad. It's real.
Claire:It's not real. It's effective. It's not it's productive art. It's not productive art. And I think when you think about students or teaching this to people, like, if you're Rupi Kaur, if you were my student, if you're emoting on the page, this is what's making you feel better, this is how you're expressing yourself in a chaotic world, inner or external or both, who am I to tell you that that's not valid or real to you?
Claire:Would I buy your book and see you in a show? I'm not so sure,
Liz:but I don't have to. Did.
Claire:It's on your bookshelf. Well, I did at the time.
Liz:Your mother bought it? Definitely.
Claire:I totally bought it. I totally asked for it for Christmas That's awesome. Multiple times. I've yeah. And I will vulnerably say because this exists on the Internet and I haven't deleted it, from my Instagram poetry account.
Claire:When Rupi Kaur came to Detroit, she opened auditions to open for her. And even though I was skeptical of my relationship to her work at the time, I still made a public video auditioning. I didn't get it. And you can check that out on see wrote it on Instagram. No.
Claire:Please don't scroll that far down.
Liz:I'm gonna scroll that far down.
Claire:I keep that work up though because it's indicative of the times. Like, I really like what you just said about that. I've contemplated deleting it or being like, oh my gosh. Like, I'm, like, so embar like, so cringe. Like, I'm embarrassed of this now.
Claire:The good news is I have free will, and I don't have to reread any of that. I can just leave it there and not scroll down far enough, which I think is also fine. Once again, it's not for me anymore even though it's my work, which is kind of weird.
Liz:That was
Claire:kind of a tangent. But No.
Liz:I like that. And Me this whole episode. Do you think do you think, like, we've just grown out of it and it really is just, like, puberty poetry or, like because I do think, like, it was specifically a younger audience that was really Mhmm. Like, into this. And you're pretty sure.
Liz:Maybe she has adult fans that, like, have grown with her. I don't know. I don't really keep up with the with the core heads,
Claire:but I Cute pretty poetry is a crazy.
Melody:Melody, what's your take on that? I, like I don't like okay. I I need a minute to think about that. Sorry.
Claire:Out of left field. It was puberty poetry.
Liz:I can throw one more thing I was thinking, if you wanna think about your puberty poetry. Reaction. The whole thing of it react students react to puberty poetry.
Claire:Oh my god.
Liz:I was just thinking about when you're talking about, like, real versus, like, fake art. I think we were talking about this or maybe me and Jack Williams were talking about this Mhmm. About, like, people who stand in front of, like, the fake art at art museums and, like, those are that was, like, a big TikTok trend that was, like, standing in front of art that I think that I could make because it's just, like, the modern art that's, like, a box in the middle or, like Right. It's like a blank canvas, like, one streak painted through it. And it's, like, like, making fun of that art literally, but it's like, but that like, is that real art?
Liz:Or I also think about how bad some performance art is, which is a conversation that we had.
Claire:Yeah. Yeah. This extends far beyond poetry or
Liz:written It's just like art in general, I think. People, like you were saying, people have a hard time real versus fake.
Claire:Right. Which if I saw in a museum a painting well, they don't sell paintings in museums. If I was at a gallery of some sort and I saw a canvas with one, like, blue dot going for, like, a thousand dollars, I'd be kind of pissed.
Liz:But also, like, I don't have like that?
Claire:Yeah. Like, I don't have to do anything with that anger. Like, I'll just walk away to the other one. You know what I mean? Like, that's not like plan to work together.
Claire:This person views it as art listen. The world is crazy. Things are tough. If this is what's making you seriously, like, feel better I'm not even, like, trying to be funny. Genuinely, like, if painting dots on canvas gives you a sense of peace or centering of some kind, go for it.
Liz:Slack message Oh, yeah. During recording. My god.
Melody:But yeah. I don't know.
Claire:It does kinda piss me off, though. I'm gonna just be honest.
Liz:Oh, okay. So I'm
Claire:not gonna take a fully fake art. Yeah. I'm not gonna take a fully no. No. Not fake.
Claire:Does it get yourself for a thousand dollars? No. I don't wanna say it's fake. It's weird. It's like a weird I don't like, who am I to judge?
Claire:But, also, like, I'm a person who's gonna be like, what is that?
Liz:Oh, k. But I'm allowed to have that a bit fake art. Fonts?
Melody:I mean, yeah. Like, the the blue dot example, I would also be upset. But, like, with modern art, like, modern visual art, it is very simple. But I I don't know. Like, gosh.
Melody:I don't know what to say about this. Yeah. Like, I don't there's always gonna be someone's going to do something and somebody else is going to hate it. Sorry. I'm reading the thumbnail.
Melody:Looking at more. Like, someone's always gonna do something and someone else is always gonna hate it. And That's true. That can be with the most, like, you can take a painting that someone worked, like, forty hours on, and someone's still gonna be like, oh, like, I don't like this and this and this about it. And you can take the blue dot, and someone's gonna be like, that's stupid.
Melody:I don't really know where I was going with this. What was the initial question?
Liz:Puberty photo. No.
Claire:Is the blue dot, Rufi Kaur? Is Rufi Kaur the blue dot of I like what you're going with. Like Yeah. You could do anything and people are gonna it could be a beautiful sculpture, like, that took a lot of time. Someone's gonna hate it.
Claire:It could be a blue dot on a page. Someone's gonna hate it. So at that point, like, just do what you want, I guess.
Melody:Yeah. I wouldn't say the blue dot is fake art because it it means something to the person or I I would hope it would mean something to the person who created it. Like, that blue dot represents something to them. And so I would say, like, yes. It's real art because it has a meaning behind it.
Melody:Mhmm. Unless it doesn't have a meaning behind it, then I don't know what kind of art I would classify that as.
Claire:That's very real take. That's yeah. I'm agreeing. Please.
Liz:Do we have any last thoughts before I read a closing piece for the group? I don't I don't listen. It's not a crime to write like Rupi Kaur. Yeah. But it is benefits to this.
Liz:Can be very corny, and I think that's why we brought it up in the first place.
Claire:Right. Right.
Liz:But if you love it and that's what inspires you And that love. Then you're just like a bunch of other people on this planet who have also been inspired by it. And like me, like, she wrote it
Claire:Yeah.
Liz:To actually feel like you can do it.
Claire:Do you write poetry? Have you
Liz:did you did you
Claire:buy the Gabbie Hanna book do you have your
Liz:own collection? Had her own Tumblr.
Melody:I I did have the Tumblr.
Claire:I I did the Tumblr did you do anything outside of the Tumblr? I'm I'm interested to hear a little more about that before we close.
Melody:I mean, like, as as most people do, I'm sure, you know, I have that locked note in my notes app where, like, for your vulnerability there. Sometimes you go through something and you're like, wow. Like that. Wow. And then you're like, that inspired me.
Liz:Oh, it's happening in
Melody:stone. Wow. Like, I never I never admitted the Tumblr blog to anyone. I never, like, this
Claire:And now it's on the Internet.
Melody:It's out in the public. But, yeah, like, I mean, little notes app. At? I don't even remember what so it's it's definitely probably still out there. But, yeah.
Melody:I mean, I I wouldn't call myself a poet. I wouldn't say what I I do is poetry, but, you know, I I write down thoughts in mind. I haven't in probably, like, a couple years, but, like, I I dabble in notes and poetry.
Liz:Love. I would say I if notes okay. If you're dabbling in notes and poetry, I'm, like, peaking expert at notes at poetry because, like, every day, I'm like, But then then you're, like, a real
Melody:No. Okay.
Liz:And then you actually, Claire has really inspired me to start writing more in a notebook instead of my notes app. Because I think that there's also a thing where, like, we should stop doing this to ourselves that we're like, oh, if it's in a notes app, it's not real. It's not good writing. It's in a because we're just doing it on our phones. But we I do fall victim to that.
Liz:So when I am now writing in my notebook more It's accessible. It's ex and
Claire:Note no. Notes have to be accessible.
Liz:Get out when you do the physical
Claire:That's good too. Yeah. Thing. They're both good.
Liz:Then you can get it.
Claire:If you slow down and don't write three lines, maybe you're motivated
Liz:to fill
Claire:up a page.
Liz:Slow down. Yeah.
Claire:And completely. Yeah. I'm just gonna I've I've said a lot already today. So I'm just gonna close with, if this is your thing, this is your thing. And
Liz:Yeah. You're You're like a million other people.
Claire:And that's totally great
Liz:and fine.
Claire:Planet. The world is complicated and strange. Do what you need to do to make sense of that in art and other.
Liz:But just remember that people might find you corny.
Claire:And that's fine. And that's fine. Ignore them.
Liz:People think that we're corny, for sure.
Claire:I literally have admitted multiple times to posting all my poems on Instagram, and I had a Wattpad going. I had a lot of things going. Oh, I've I've
Liz:talked about it already. Endlessly.
Claire:And no shame. And we're never gonna do an episode of reading notes at poetry, but just know that if we did, we could all be
Liz:a botany. On house lights in Puerto Rico. Oh my god.
Claire:So before we break for spring break and such, Liz, would you like to
Liz:Yeah. I'd like to close out with, just a couple We're literally words.
Claire:Hate you. If you're watching, we don't hate you. We don't hate you. We respect you for what you've done.
Liz:We thank you for your brand. Thank you for inspiring the people at this table to be on Tumblr and to, write and all these things. But at the same time, you know, self reflection. Take the time. Is it love if they don't even know how to love themselves?
Claire:See you guys next week.
Liz:See you next week. Bye.