What's it like being a teacher?

John Keating, Dewey Finn, Yoda, Edna Krabappel... there are countless teachers depicted across our media. But what is it actually like being a teacher? Dan reflects on his 10 years as a teacher in three very different schools in the UK. He celebrates the rewarding moments, the challenges and pressures, and how the profession has and continues to change in the modern day. 

What is Do we need to write this down??

Do we need to write this down? A question that echoes through classrooms and schools. This podcast starts there, unpacking what school asks us to remember, what we leave behind, and how our education shapes us long after the lessons end. Because education touches everyone’s lives: your experience could be positive, negative or a mixture of the two, but it’s one of the few things that everyone has an opinion on.

This podcast discusses all elements of the education system in the UK and beyond, hosted by the Outreach team at New College, Oxford. Each week, Dan and Shelby are joined by industry experts, chatting about a wide range of topics including bullying, home-schooling, the importance of early years and much more. Tune in for a fresh and relevant deep dive into the theme of education.

Welcome back to. Do we need to write this down, with Shelby Holmes? That's me. Hi, Shelby. and I should probably say my name. I'm Daniel, and we're here today to talk about being a teacher. and the question we hope we're going to tackle is, what is it like to be a teacher. Which only you can answer? I am not a teacher. I can answer that question. I was a teacher. Well, we'll go into that in a bit more detail shortly. But I was a teacher for ten years. so a fairly long time. And I think I've got a reasonable amount of experience to be able to talk about the good things and the difficulties with being a teacher. in the modern world. So that's what we're going to focus on, today. And to do that I'm going to go into teacher mode now and I'm going to give Shelby a quiz. because I'm going to ask you some questions. about just the number of people who work in schools, as teachers and so on. And all of this information, comes from something called the School Workforce Census, which is run every November. and it collects information from schools and local authorities on the school workforce, but just in state funded schools in England. So bear that in mind. We’re just talking about English state schools. Schools ok so nothing to do with Wales, nothing to do with independent schools. Okay. Alright, alright. Or Scotland or Northern Ireland. Don't know how well I'm going to do. It. So this information is taken from 2023. So it's the most up to date information that is available okay okay. So question one how many people do you think work in schools in England. So that's does any form of job in a school that is employed in a school in England. Or an average per school, or the total number of people? No, the total number. I bet it’s flipping loads. because not just teachers, it's like admin staff and cleaning and catering and maintenance and IT I’ll be kind on this first one. If you hazard a guess, I will then tell you if it's higher or lower. Okay. Brilliant. So, see, I don't know if, if even if I'd be able to guess how many schools that are in England. Oh, Lord. Thinking about this very methodically. I'm trying. Trying to. I'm going to guess, it's flipping loads. 900,000. Wow. That's really close. Is it? It is higher, but you're not far off. Go on. What is it? Do I get the answers now? It's 979,085, which is a pretty impressive. It's a pretty impressive guess. I'm so pleased with myself. Okay, now. So you take that 979,000 and so not far off a million people. Okay. now, of those people, what proportion do you think are teachers? 68% It's a bit lower. Is it? Yeah, it's nearly half. So there are there were 468,693. But that's crazy. Teachers are literally only the half of it when it comes to schools. Well, so yeah. Then you've got all the support staff. Yeah. in any number of roles. admin staff, caretakers. It takes a lot to run a school. It does. so there are currently or there were when this census was taken, 468,693 teachers in England. Now then, do you understand what is meant by the term pupil-teacher ratio? Yeah. So if you've got oh, maybe, I don't know. So my initial thought, would it there’s, like 25 kids in a class to one teacher. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So if you take all of those teachers and then think about all the children who go to school, what do you think is the pupil to teacher ratio in England? So for schools in England, state schools in England, what's the pupil to teacher ratio? Is it for the whole schools? yeah. So I suppose it's on average. Because I guess an A-level class would be much smaller. Yeah. So on average. Average pupil to teacher ratio, I, I’m gonna go 30 to 1. That's quite a bit lower than that actually. It's lower than I thought it would be, which is 18 to 1. because I feel like the A level classes and things that bring it down. I can't think of many classes that I had that were 18 or less. I never had a classroom that was 18 to 1. Never, ever. I did with some A-level groups. but yeah. So it's 18 to 1. Yeah. then we come to teacher pay. so would you like to hazard a guess as to what is the average salary for teachers and the way they've worked out average here is the median. Okay. So the median salary for teachers in England. So bear in mind there you've got to think headteachers right the way down to They’ll bring up. Yeah. Newly qualified teachers. Yeah. Yeah. Well first of all whatever it is it's not enough. I feel like the headteacher's salary will bring it up quite a bit. because they get they get paid bare dollar, as the kids say. Kids used to say, I bet the kids don't say that anymore. 35k. It's more than that. So it's 43,801 pounds per year. But I think that's surely is the headteacher So yeah, so that's on average, about 43,000 pounds a year. I'm not doing tremendously badly here. I know you're not too far off. Yeah. and then this one, this one didn't surprise me, from my own experiences. But what percentage of teachers do you think are female? I bet it's the majority. It's got to be, like, 65%. It's more than that. Is it, 70%? More than that? Oh 75 marginally more. Really? What, 76%? 76%. So 76% of teachers are female. and then the statistics for primary school are higher than that. Do you think that is the culture of like our society where we're like, oh, women work with children? Or do you think men? I think that's yeah, that's probably part of it. Okay. How do you feel about that as a male teacher? Just to put the brakes on your quiz for a second. I, let me have I think. I never worked in a department where I was the only male. I don't think from memory. That's quite helpful. Then I guess to never be the only one. Yeah. And I think because I was a secondary school teacher, it was slightly different anyway. So there were, there were always there are more men who are teachers in secondary schools then there are in primary schools. So I suppose my experience would have been different had I been a primary school teacher. Yeah. but I had three head teachers and two of them were women. in the three schools that I worked in, best head of department I had was a woman. so no. And now I work in a department full of women. So I think I think if you just go into education that it's particularly secondary education and primary education. but why that is probably does stem from what you said. but if we think about all of the statistics there that we've just learned about, I suppose what that tells us is that there are a lot of people who are employed in education in this country. who aren't paid a huge amount of money. Yeah. To do a job that is tremendously hard a skilled profession. and most of those people are women. Yeah, yeah. And if you think about the nature of the role, it asks so much, so many different kinds of skills. They have to be really organised. You have to create a lot of resources and lesson plans yourself You also have to be the shoulder to cry on. You also have to be the firm hand. There's so many hats and so many different things that we expect teachers to be not just capable of doing, but really good at. It's very strange kind of job when you think about it. Yeah, yeah, I suppose it is. It is an unusual job. And also the fact that you work at a very high intensity for a period of time and then you grind to a halt, and you have, you know, these holidays that people always talk about, you know, you're a teacher, you must get loads of holidays. but actually, that's quite unusual as well. it's quite an odd thing to deal with in some ways. Okay. So we're going to think about some famous people now who used to be teachers. I found a big list of people, but I'm some of them were very tenuous. links to being a teacher, they taught for six months. Well, not even that some of them. so. These are three people that I found, that were teachers. So Romesh Ranganathan. Yes. comedian. Was he a maths teacher? He was a maths teacher. Greg Davies also a comedian. Actor. was a drama teacher. And then someone who is slightly less well known, but who I, have a lot of affection for, for a podcast that he does. And also some stand up, called Mike Bubbins, who was a Welsh, comedian who was a PE teacher. and then I was thinking, it's quite interesting that those three people all are in the world of comedy, slash acting. I've thought about this a lot because in my work I have schools, and I. It's it's nowhere near as hard as being a teacher. But you have the kids for 90 minutes or 2 hours, and you have to control that crowd and you have to get them onside. And a lot of it is to do with stand up comedy is to hold the attention of the room, get them to do what you need them to do. and, handle any hecklers as they come. So I, I'm not surprised that this link between teaching and stand up comedy. But also it is a bit of an act as well. You know, you do have to put on a bit of a show, as a teacher. And I always think back to, you know, some sometimes if you're having a rubbish day or you're not feeling brilliant in other jobs, you can just go in and you can sit behind your desk, you can sit behind a computer, you can do what you need to do and disappear. Yeah. if you're having that sort of day and doing a public facing role, you don't have that as an option. And with the best will in the world, you know, a bunch of teenagers are not really going to care if you're not feeling particularly good. so there's, there's that challenge which you have to overcome as well. With the teaching being an act and, and you sort of having to have this particular personality, I certainly feel that in the tiny bit of teaching that I do and you sort of put on this front that's, you know, really enthusiastic about whatever it is you're talking about. Do you or do you remember sort of parts of your personality coming out more as a teacher or parts of your, like characteristics you would use more as a teacher than you would during your normal day to day? I think as you get to know classes, particularly your form group. So I had a form group where I was with them from year 7 to 11. You know, how how I was with them when they were in year 11 was obviously going to be different to how I was with them when they were in year 7 and vice versa. but yeah, and older classes, I suppose, would see parts of your actual personality and what you were really like. but that tended to come with age, but also, things like when you taught them. so if you teach, you know, first thing on a Monday morning, you're perhaps not going to be, as jovial as you would be if you're teaching them on Friday afternoon, or whatever it may be. But, yeah, I was never closed off. I wanted the students who I taught to know a little bit about me and what I liked and things like that, because I think it's important that they see teachers as people and human beings, rather than, you know, what's the point in not telling them what you're doing that weekend or something like that, you know? Yeah. I think it's quite nice for them to see that sort of thing. Yeah. I remember one teacher, shout out Miss Cunnor. She was absolutely right. The week that she got engaged to her boyfriend, she came in. She was like, we got engaged. We were all so excited to see the ring. And it was like, oh, yeah, this person has this whole other life outside of school, and it's so lovely that we get to know that about her. Foolishly or bravely. I suppose, depending upon which way you look at it. I went to Glastonbury twice when I was teaching, which meant that I left sort of on the dot on the Friday afternoon to get down to to Glastonbury, and then drove back in the middle of the night on Sunday, ready to be in school for Monday morning. Fantastic. Good choices all around here. And I remember my form who probably would have been year 9, 10 maybe at the time. yeah, around that sort of age. And I remember them sort of saying to me, Ah, sir did you see Beyoncé in Glastonbury last night? And I was like, yeah, I was there. I was in the field. Yeah. and then I got engaged to my wife in Glastonbury. So I told them, oh, and we got engaged. What was the reaction? Oh, they loved it. Yeah, they loved it. but I do remember one teacher coming up to me that morning. In the morning briefing that you'd used to have on a Monday morning, and they just went, Dan, you look green. Oh, no. I thought you were. I do not feel well. so. Yes, yes, I wouldn't recommend it necessarily, but it was still good fun. but then if you think about teachers in popular culture, let me quiz you. Then let me see if you know where these teachers come from. Oh, I bet I will. So the first one is the easiest one. Yeah. Right. So, Miss Honey. Miss Honey is from Matilda. Yes. She's Matilda’s wonderful teacher who becomes her mum in some ways, yeah. It's good not to critique the ending too closely. You’re like how did this adoption process happen so quickly? Yes. Not a lot of safeguarding checks. No no no no no. Next. the next one, I think you will know. So, Dewey Finn. Is School of Hard Rock. Yeah, Not School of Hard Rock. Wasn’t it School of Hard Rock? School of Rock. School of Rock What’s the hard rock that I'm think I'm thinking of. The Hard Rock Hotel Yes. And the Hard Rock Cafe slash restaurant. So Dewey Finn. Yes. That's right. Substitute teacher. Another, supply teacher. Another film showing really poor safeguarding. They did not check that man's references. Yes, they did nothing. No DBS check. What was all that about? well, this goes on quite nicely to somebody who had, disregard for the law. Walter White. Oh, yes. He was a teacher. Was he a chemistry teacher? Yeah. from? Breaking Bad. Breaking Bad. the next one you will definitely know, Edna Krabappel From The Simpsons. She was a jaded. She was a very jaded teacher Smoking a cigarette every now and again our the window. She was very much over it. Had a romantic liaison with Principal Skinner in the cupboard. Who could forget. The next one is controversial. Whether or not he would be even He, I don't know, he would be classified as, a teacher. Certainly a moral guide, I think is fair, Yoda Yoda, is Yoda a teacher? He doesn't really exist within a school. No that’s definitely that's true. But he is a kind of mentor. He's sort of the last. Imagine if there were no schools anymore and there was one teacher left. That would be Yoda. one I haven't included on here, partly because I've never actually seen this film is Dead Poets Society. Oh, my. You've never. Okay, this is really important because Robin Williams plays a wonderful, wonderful teacher in that. And when he gets them all to. Yeah, I know I've seen the scene. He shows us the he shows them the old photographs and just inspires them so much. It it's what a teacher should be, even though, not spoil the film, there is a tragedy at the end. Yeah. But it's he is so wonderful in depicting the what I think of as one of the problems of being a teacher is you have this, these parameters that you need to occupy to get you like where you need to be by the end of the year, but you also want to fill them with real joy of the subject. So do you think there is a drama that has done a depiction of a school accurately? I think Adolescence. that's that those scenes, that episode based around the school was very accurate. Yeah. just in terms of how I could imagine a school being after a tragic incident like that, I thought that was very accurate. Other than that, I haven't really seen a school depicted where I thought, yeah, that's what school is like. Derry Girls, this is exactly right. Yeah. you know, I don't know. Do you remember Grange Hill? I remember. Grange Hill. you know, There's Waterloo Road and Ackley Bridge and things like that. I, I don't know how I'm sure they do have people who check things to make sure that this could actually happen in the school, but obviously it pushes things to the extreme. I don't know, I think there are lots of writers that are like, this is the amalgamation of all my memories of school plus a little bit of my creativity and imagination. Yeah. So, what was it like being a teacher? What was your path into actually getting that? Yeah, so I did a Geography degree. and then I had a year where I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to do something with geography, and I didn't want to continue with education in the way that I didn't want to go into a PhD or a master's or anything. You didn’t want to be a town planner? I didn't want to be a town planner, or I didn't want to work for the Ordnance Survey. so I thought, well, the sure fire way to use geography every day and hopefully instil some enthusiasm in the future generation is to be a geography teacher. so I did some work experience, went into school and enjoyed it, and then I, I did a PGCE, so I did a qualification in teaching, and then was fortunate in that I got a job straight away, and then worked in three very different state schools, so two in South Wales, and an academy in the west of Oxfordshire, for a grand total of ten years. and then called it a day, after that. So I was very much led by the subject. That's why I went into secondary teaching. and that's why I, I just, I wanted to be a geography teacher. So you were led by the subject rather than. I really can't wait to work with children. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Yes. I never know if that's a good thing or not, but, It's fascinating, because. Do you think if there was. I know this is a sort of pie in the sky idea, but if there had been some, I don't know, consultancy, focusing in geography, and they had a grad scheme and their focus was that you could do geography every day, would you have picked that over teaching? I suppose if jobs like that exist, then yes, that might have been an option. but I suppose what I liked as well was the fact that I taught the full range, of geography all the way through my career. So from day one I taught Year 7, right the way through to A-level. and that provides a challenge in itself, because obviously, you know, what the content that you're teaching to Year 13s is going to be very different to the content you're teaching Year 7. But that doesn't necessarily make it easier, because a Year 13 is going to be more adept at taking on certain things that a Year 7 can't. So actually breaking down a subject and thinking, right, if I was 11 years old. Yeah. How do I actually explain this to somebody? Well, you know, if we're talking about migration, how do I talk about this in a way that is both balanced but also approachable for a Year 7 and appropriate for a Year 7 student. So I liked having the full range, I suppose, of both geography but also of the age ranges. So some teachers that I used to work with like didn't like teaching year 7 or 8, whereas I never really had that. I enjoyed teaching everybody equally. So what did you do on your first day? I can remember my first day of being a teacher. partly because it was an inset day, and in inset days, you never really know what goes on. On an inset day. You know, it's a mystery when you've got the day off in school, you're like, oh, it's an inset day. nobody really knows what happens. So my first day I worked in, Treorchy Comprehensive School in the Rhondda Valley, and, it's my first day teaching. First job never worked, you know, other than sort of holiday jobs or anything like that. so first day of proper employment. So I thought, right, well, you dress up smart. Yeah, right. Sensible. Yeah. You know, shiny shoes. Yeah. Shirt and tie, squeaky shoes. Because they're so new. Yeah. And I just remember this horrible moment where all the teachers are in the hall together. You don't know anybody. you've only been there for an interview for, like, maybe half a day. You kind of vaguely remember what your head of department looks like, that sort of thing. You certainly don't have anybody to check in advance with to go, like, just out of interest. What what do people wear? Yeah. So I'm there shirt tie is very smart. Everybody else is there shorts, t shirts. Oh, no. you know, the lot. And then what? Certainly every school I worked in did this on the first day in September. All the new staff would have to stand up and sort of nervously wave at everybody. So everybody knew who each person was. So then I'm introduced and I'm there standing up. Only person in the whole hall just, you know, wearing shirt and tie, feeling like a right idiot. and yeah, I do. I remember that vividly in terms of my first lesson. I don't remember that. I don't remember the first lesson that I taught. but I can I can remember specific parts of that first year of being a teacher. which for positive reasons? Or negative reasons? Yeah, you know, well, a mixture, because it's never going to be plain sailing. You know. Your first year doing any job, you're going to have bumps in the road, you're going to make mistakes. you're going to do some things well, you're going to do you're going to do some things you think, why did I do that? And but I, I can remember, I suppose you remember more of the bad things, all the things that go wrong, from your first year of being a teacher. And so I remember, you know, things like kids storming out of the classroom. you know, asking somebody when you're on duty or, you know, a child you don't know, can you pick that piece of litter up and never really knowing what the reaction you're going to get is going to be, and dealing with things like that? I think in your first year you're so worried about behaviour management, you’re just focusing on getting that right. So how do you manage behaviour? Like how do you deal with it all kids stormed off. I would not be good at that at all. I would. Yeah, well, hopefully you work in a school like I did where there were clear systems in place. and there was a very supportive senior management structure. Right. It all comes from the top. but behavior management, you know, you never know what's going to. That's the thing that is teaching, which is both an exciting thing and and a positive, but also a real difficulty is you never know what is going to happen. No, no. Every day you turn up Kids have been up to over the weekend. You don't know what's happened on the way to school. You don't know what happened on social media last night. You don't know what happened. you know, in their home life. Yeah. You've got so many unknowns. Yeah. and sometimes, you know, a child is misbehaving for a perfectly valid reason. And yeah actually learning about geography isn't high on their priority for that particular day. No. so we'll talk more, I suppose, about those pressures, a bit later. But behaviour management is something that I think every teacher is just learning all the time. Yeah. and I suppose that is changing as society changes as well. Yeah. according to that. If you were to create a role in another organisation and be like, oh, hi, we're making this new role. It's, it's longer than 9 to 5. it's all these strange working hours. This is the amount of admin that's involved. Also, you have to deliver stuff in person to people who aren't interested in being there. It's a it's an insane job. And and the salary for it, I think would be so different if. Yeah, if you were designing this for any other type of organisation. But because the school we all think we know what that means. It's it's just oh yeah. That's just what it is. Yeah. And I think there's more and more pressures being put on teachers now. which, you know, we'll talk about in more depth now. but it was quite alarming this there was an article in The Independent about a year ago now, and a study by the mental health charity Education Support found that teacher wellbeing was at a five year low with stress, burnout and insomnia all rising. And in 2017, 67% of school teachers were reporting feelings of stress. By 2023, that figure had risen to 78%. then NASUWT who are a teaching union, they conducted a survey with their members in 2024. So among the 12,000 that responded, 23% reported drinking more alcohol, 12% were using anti-depressants, 3% had self-harmed. so I think it's becoming an increasingly difficult job, and it has been since I left teaching. I think it's become harder. and it's quite frightening in many ways because you then do start to think, well, who is going to teach the children of the future if, if we're losing this number of people? So in 2021-2022, almost 9% of the teaching workforce resigned from state schools that year. So that's 40,000 teachers. that's the highest number since it began publishing data in 2011. In 2023, we had the biggest teaching strikes in a decade. it was called off after the four main unions voted to accept the 6.5% pay rise offer. But there's a misunderstanding there, because it wasn't just to do with pay, it was to do with the fact that teachers were being asked to do all of these additional things on top of their job. So it was as much a workload issue as it was. We're not getting paid enough money. issue. then you had the tragic case of the head teacher, Ruth Perry, who took her own life after her school, of which whe was the head teacher, received a low Ofsted rating, for her school in Reading. so you've got the pressures of Ofsted's or Estyn in Wales, sort of hanging over school all the time. because all of a sudden your school could go from, you know, one particular rating to another, and that then adds pressure as well as the pressure in the build up to the actual inspection and so on. So, you know, they're high stakes environments, basically schools. it's a bit of a pressure cooker. And if you're not feeling great, it's a very difficult place to be. And I think I remember having this conversation with friends who I worked with. I was always very fortunate in that the departments I always worked in were very supportive and very cohesive, but I think teaching can be an incredibly lonely job if you're not fortunate enough to be in a department like that because you don't have much adult contact during the day. No. that would be terrifying. I think. If you're operating on your own, you know, you may be in a department, but you may not have a particularly cohesive department that you work in, and you're just dealing with teenagers or children. you know, in primary schools, younger children every single day, not having that adult contact you’re not having that adult conversation, all of a sudden your problems are internalised. And I think that's when things can get out of control of the people. And it must be even worse if you, you yourself have kids. So then you go home. Yeah, I still sort of mainly surrounded by these children. Yeah. I think that would be very isolating. Yeah. and I think the other thing that is certainly since I've left teaching, is, is that the number of problems that teachers are now having to deal with due to the fact that there are 4.2 million children in this country who are living in relative poverty, poverty, while the number of young people in extreme poverty and what that means is their family can't afford to clothe them, can't afford to, clean them, keep them warm, that's triple over the past three years. So all of a sudden, you've got situations where teachers are having to play the role of social worker. They're playing the role of carer. you know, it's it's a very difficult thing to do to see a child who is clearly not in a good place. and, you know, it's only natural that you try everything that you can do to help that particular child. But if the wider public services aren't there, it then becomes very difficult to do so. You know, there's there's issues with mental health services, with social care provision, having appropriate support for special needs children. All of these things on top of then dealing with perhaps poor behaviour, you know, all of the horrors surrounding digital engagement and what's going on with that in the current day. All of these things teachers are having to deal with. And I think that's a huge amount for anybody to to have the mental capacity to deal with. and you have to be very good at switching off, which I wasn't, particularly good at. so you may have a concern about a student and it would normally, you know, it's not necessarily going to be an academic concern. it's probably going to be a pastoral concern. And, and you have that weighing on your mind sometimes, you know, did I do everything I needed to do? Is that kid gonna be okay? That sort of thing? I think you wouldn't be a human being if you didn't feel that. Okay. So we've heard some frankly depressing statistics about teaching and there's lots of really, really valid reasons to leave this industry. Did any of that impact why you decided to leave? I don't think it did. actually, I didn't leave teaching because I had a guts full of teaching, and I wanted to get out of the classroom. I left, I started to I, I'd been doing it for ten years, and, I knew that I didn't want to go into the pastoral side of things, because essentially, when you're a teacher, you you can either stay as a classroom teacher or you can progress into senior management roles. Right more often than not, to get to those senior management roles. You have to either be a head of department or a head of year so that you've got experience of middle management. they would call it. So I knew I didn't want to be a head of year and then the unfortunate thing with the likes of geography and other humanities subjects and also in the creative arts and even, you know, things like PE, technology, that sort of thing, is that increasingly being lumped together Yeah. So all of a sudden you wouldn't just be a geography teacher, you'd be a geography teacher who also teaches Year 8 history and Year 7 RE. And you all of a sudden become part of a humanities department. And then the head of geography role disappears and you become head of humanities. So all of these things were just sort of on the periphery. They were starting to creep in. and also at that time all the syllabuses were changing for GCSE and A-level. So I just thought, right, well, everything that I've done up until this point is basically going to have to be ripped up and start all over again. To make some new lesson plans. Yeah. so there was that taking place. and I knew that I didn't want to be a classroom teacher forever. I couldn't see myself thinking realistically, do I want to be doing this for the next 30 years? Yeah. Because it is exhausting. Yeah. so I just started to look around. I knew I wanted to work in education. I was fortunate in that I lived close to Oxford. obviously that's a pretty big, university. in the city. And I just started to see, well, what sort of things are coming up. But also by that time I was at the top of the pay scale for a teacher, so I was getting paid, you know, a decent amount of money. I was on what was called the upper pay scale at that time. So I was getting paid as much as I could get paid to be a classroom teacher. So I also had to think, like, financially, I can't just go and do anything. It's got to be something where I'm not going to lose, you know, significant amount of money or anything like that. So you're on 1 million pounds a year. Exactly. so, you know, I was sort of looking, but not doing anything too seriously about it in that last year. And then, a job came up at New College, which said in the advert we'd be interested in somebody who's got experience of being a teacher, somebody who feels strongly about, widening participation to Oxford University. and all of the things I looked at in the job description, I thought, well, yeah, I could do all of these things, I think. What was the job title? so the job title at that time was Admissions and Outreach Officer, something like that. So I was basically responsible for coordinating the undergraduate admissions process and also then delivering the outreach work for the new college. so I just thought, well, I'll just apply and I'll see what happens. If I don't get it. I don't get it. I'm more than happy being a teacher. I just fancy a bit of a change. so I then applied for this job at New College. it was in May, so. Yeah, coming up to nine years ago now. Oh my goodness. and got that job and then have been here ever since. And my job has evolved. And now you’re Head of Outreach and Communications Well, yeah. so I never left it because I didn't enjoy being a teacher. I left it because I was at a time of my life, I suppose, as well, where I could take that risk. so I could do it. and also, there were structural changes coming in that I didn't necessarily want to see through. Yeah. Yeah. Good to leave before you hate it, I think is. Yeah. And, I, I'd still would, you know, in spite of all the negatives, in spite of all the difficulties surrounding the job, I still really enjoyed it. And I and I really enjoyed it because I suppose my enthusiasm for geography never went away. Oh, I can tell you. and that was the thing that sort of kept me going and, you know, I love the fact that I could teach a level physical geography, you know, human geography, you know, right the way down to Year 7, you know, map skills or something like that. So, I would have still enjoyed it had I kept going. but I, I think I would have found it really difficult from the pastoral side of view with the, the changes that are taking place in society in the last ten years. Yeah. and I, I still feel very, what's the right word? I've got a lot respect for anybody who goes into teaching. but it it is an incredibly rewarding job as well. And you, you know, you still remember those students, children that you taught? that. And you wonder, like, I wonder what they're doing now. and you still have those fond memories. And it was a laugh. You know, it was funny at times. You know, kids are funny and that maybe that says more about me and my sense of humour. But you do laugh. you know, quite a lot. And if you're lucky and you work in a good school and there's good camaraderie amongst the staff as well, you know, it can be a really fun job as well as a really important one. Yeah. You know, there's not many more jobs that are as important as being a teacher. Absolutely. so I would still wholeheartedly recommend it to, you know, the students that we work with now in terms of undergraduate students, because we need those sorts of people. We need good people to be going into schools. who are super interested and passionate about the subject and who can infect other people with that. Yeah, you haven't quite sold me on it. Right. But, but yeah, it is lovely to see some of our undergraduate students choosing to, to go down. Yeah, that's been very satisfying to see. right. So now shall be the question turns to you. So, this podcast remember is called Do we need to write this down? Hopefully some of you listening today have learned something that you think, yeah, I'm gonna remember that. But we're going to delve back now. Shelby into your school years Oh gosh. And you were going to tell us something that you have remembered from your school years. I don't remember a lot from school. Obviously I remember things from school because I was good at school, and that's great, but I have a very vibes based memory. A vibes based memory Right. What does that mean? So I remember sort of the impressions and how I felt about certain teachers and certain subjects and certain lessons, but I don't have what I always think of as your like geography style knowledge, where you're like, oh, that flag is this country. I don't have those Facts. Yeah, I, I've got no facts left in here Just impressions. But one I do remember. Knowledge. Yeah no knowledge. Just impressions. But one thing I do remember, it wasn’t an academic fact. But, in Year 4 I had a great teacher shout out Mr. Maddock And he did loads of really great things with us in Year 4. He he did loads of music with us, and at the end I think it was on Fridays, Friday afternoons, he would read a chapter of Swallows and Amazons to us, and he was really great teacher. but one thing I do remember, because I did not come from a sporty household, is he taught me what a hat-trick was. So he said like, oh, it's those, it's three goals. And there was a poster to get the boys interested in reading. I think it was like football and trying to relate it to reading. And yeah, there's a reference to a hat-trick there and he spent a long time trying to explain rules of football to me. So I will always be grateful for him, for teaching me that one fact that I have about. football. a hat trick, is. A hat trick is three goals. That's a thing that I know from school, so you can write that down, but I don't have. Any of the facts. Well, by next episode, I think you should try and find out why is it called a hat trick? Gosh, that's a big challenge. Okay. Alright. I didn’t know there’s be homework associated with this podcast. There we go. Seems very unfair. Once a teacher Yes. Truly, truly. Thank you very much. And we hope to, have you here again for the next episode. Our lovely audience will be joining us for next time. And, see you then. Goodbye. Bye.