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Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.
Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.
Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.
To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.
DH - Thomas & Daphne
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Daphne: [00:00:00] it really creates a space to welcome anyone from any background.
Intro: What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.
I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.
Sponsor: This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.
Dan: Today's guests are two creators working at the intersection of culture, cuisine, and design. Two professionals who work behind the scenes to build and design a Korean branded hotel, the L seven on Wabash, facing the Chicago River and a restaurant in downtown Chicago. He is the co-founder and director of [00:01:00] operations of Perilla Korean American Steakhouse, and she is the founder and principal designer of the room, te an interior design firm.
Together, their creating spaces and experiences that invite people to see Korean culture, it's beauty, its elegance, and its hospitality in a new way. Please welcome Thomas o and Daphne Shin. Welcome, Thomas and Daphne.
Thomas: Thank
you.
Thank you for
having us.
Daphne: Thank you. Thank
Dan: How are you today?
Daphne: Good. Um, this is so exciting
Dan: I am really excited to have you on, but what's, what's even more exciting? Um, just so the listeners know, um, Berman, Falk did the guestroom case goods at the L seven, and Daphne was the head designer on there when she was working at Rocco. And recently, like within the past month, I was in Chicago with Daphne in the hotel with a couple other people.
And we had an incredible Korean barbecue dinner at Thomas's restaurant, which if you're [00:02:00] watching on YouTube, he's sitting right in front of. And if you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to smash that subscribe button because it just helps with distribution and everything else. Um, but Daphne and Thomas, that was an amazing idea to go and eat and, and, and entertain others.
And in this wonderful experience. And I'd stayed at the hotel a handful of times before, but sadly I never ate at the restaurant and I realized what I was missing. So. Before we get too far into everything, Daphne, from a designer perspective in creating spaces, and then Thomas, from a restaurateur's perspective, how do each of you define hospitality or what does hospitality mean to you and what's drawn you to these life paths that you've chosen?
And Daphne, we'll start with you.
Daphne: so for me, I believe it's about creating a sense of, um, belonging. Um, as a interior designer mainly, um, hospitality was through creating [00:03:00] spatial environment, um, where five senses can be translated to the guest to feel and experience, um, as they walk into a space. Um, but also, um, this means offering even just warm gesture to even sharing the food experience.
Um, I believe in creating
the environment where, um, the guests can feel welcome
to feel safe, feel excited to be part of that experience and want to explore more. Um, so that this feeling of memory that guests can take home after the experience. I think that's what, um. They're going to remember, the guests gonna remember for a long time, not necessarily the nitty gritty details.
Um, so
Dan: Hmm.
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Great. Thank you. And Thomas, how about you?
Thomas: I think, like Daphne said, I think hospitality is, for me at least, it's, it, it is tough to define in words because I think, um, as it's evolved over the years for me in the, [00:04:00] in my career, think hospitality has become a, a sense of, it's a feeling. Um, I think it's making sure that guests are seen, felt, and heard, and, I think it's a relationship.
I think that's, it's something that you can
leave on a person and it's a lasting impression
that can be felt for years.
Um, and I think it's sometimes hard to define in words. You know, I think, uh, as, as restaurateurs and
as people in service industry, we, we try to,
um, take action
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: people feel that.
Dan: And as it relates to your definitions of hospitality, thank you for sharing. I think you too had this incredible laboratory of the L seven Hotel, which is part of the Lotte brands. Did I say that right? Lotte.
Daphne: Yeah. Yeah.
Dan: Okay. Part of the Lotte brand, which is a Korean, uh, brand of hotel that's everywhere in the world, and I've stayed at Lotte.
All over the place and they're fantastic. And this was [00:05:00] a different, um,
lens through which to experience a Lotte hotel in the L seven brand, and I think it was the first L seven in the United States. So from a designer's perspective and a restaurateur's perspective who were both Korean American, how do you, how, how, what was it like creating this experience for all guests from all walks of life to live through an experience?
Uh, Thomas, start with you and then we'll
come over to Daphne On the design side,
Thomas: Um, so I think in the restaurant specific,
Dan: I.
Thomas: um, we wanted to really
showcase and you can see some of this stuff behind me here. There's like beautiful elements of Korean culture that we really wanted to, I think the people, I think Koreans come here and they can see all of the little bits and pieces and details and they can really pick up on it.
And I think we wanted to. not necessarily throw it in people's [00:06:00] faces. Um, kind of turn like a, a modern, You know, a little bit more of a modern approach to this design. Um, I think it feels elegant. It feels clean. Um, it was really exciting to add these, like, You know, incorporate these elements into the, into the space. Um, and it's just done and integrated in a really, really well manner that it's, it's, again, it's not like, uh, it's not intrusive, um, but it's just el just elegantly woven into the space
Dan: But also as a restaurateur, Thomas, you're up against a lot of competitive stake places in Chicago, which is like, when I think of Chicago, I think of pizza and I think of steak and then, right. So to have this Korean American steakhouse, right. How did. How did you inject the American word into the Korean barbecue experience?
How did you different, how would you differentiate yourself from the, the [00:07:00] world renowned steakhouses that are there? You also being one of them, but also in
bring in that Korean aspect as well.
Thomas: I
Dan: I.
Thomas: a lot of elements in the restaurant that kind of we'll weave into
the, the kind of iconic Chicago steakhouse. And some of those things are like, I think of like an old Chicago classic steakhouse, typically I think of
like dark mahogany wood, very dark lit. It
feels a little bit masculine.
Daphne: Mm.
Thomas: I think we wanted to kind of get away from that a little bit and
and I think, You know, you've been here yourself. I think the space
is really inviting to everybody.
I think it adds some of those textures. I think like the banquettes, right? Which is kind of like. around this restaurant really kind of feel steakhouse. Um, these nice, beautiful chairs that are comfortable wide. Um, You know, these are elements that I feel like still incorporate those elements of Chicago Steakhouse, uh, into this space. But I think that we've done a, I think it's been an incredible
Dan: This might be a, this might be a [00:08:00] totally separate conversation and maybe one more in Daphne's expertise as a, as a designer. But, uh, when you talk about the wider banquettes and seats,
you wouldn't find seats that wide in Korea, would you? Is it, is it
like a wonder? A wonderfully American thing? So Daphne, have fun with that one.
Daphne: I mean this, it was a challenging part because also, You know, the Koreans. Um, steak Grill has a lot of, uh, parts to it. Um, so, You know, creating the banquette detail was actually challenging to make sure that people feel comfortable when they're sitting and there's a proper equipment underneath the table, um, and properly vent it out so that the restaurant doesn't like, um, You know,
Dan: Oh, that's a really good, that's a really good point. And that's what I, I've eaten at My kids love Korean barbecue, so we always go down into Manhattan, uh, onto 32nd Street. I think it's 32nd Street,
and we've, I think we've hit every single Korean [00:09:00] barbecue place, but
at almost all of them, there's this huge vent that comes down over the table to suck out all the, all the, uh, the smoke and everything.
But really it's, it's in the hotel lobby, and I've stayed there many times and I never even smelled
the grilling meat.
Daphne: know there
was a
Dan: No, I had no idea.
Daphne: It's that good.
Thomas: very intrusive, right? It's like when you're trying to
enjoy dinner with
somebody across the table from you, you don't want this
like giant metal
cylinder in front of your face, so
Dan: Right. Well, but Daphne, from the design perspective, working on the, the hotel and the, and the restaurant.
For a Korean brand, for the, for l seven's first footprint in the United States. Like,
how did that make you feel? Like w was there, was there a tremendous weight or, or, um, I don't know. Were, were you con, were you concerned with the outcome?
I, I feel like you had like the, the weight of, of Korea on your shoulders.
Daphne: I was really excited. Um, 'cause it just like gives me another like layer of [00:10:00] like meaning to work on this project that like, I want to make it proud in a way. Um, so, You know, along the way it was like really fun to collaborate, um, You know, with the, the team at the lte and also make sure that it gets translated, um, properly to the American, um, You know, palettes and also fit into the Chicago, um, downtown.
Um. Um, so it was like all about kind of like, how can we balance that? Uh, we still hone into the Korean DNA of the design, but not to be so loud. Uh, we don't, we are not bringing Korean museum into Korean, um, Chicago downtown. So like, how can we marry that two culture together?
Um,
Dan: Hmm,
Daphne: at the end of the day, it's a
hotel, right?
It's like many different, um,
You know, different, uh, um, how do you say, um, different national people come through different languages or spoken. [00:11:00] Um, it's a really a like melting pot spot and um, can we make that space to make it feel comfortable for everyone who walk into that space basically?
Dan: hmm.
Daphne: Um, so it was
a fun challenge.
Yeah.
Dan: Love it. And then Thomas. So being in this city of wonderful, of amazing steakhouses and being a, having an amazing steakhouse in this incredible city, which I love Chicago so much, and I feel like a celebrity every time I'm there, just because my name is Dan Ryan and people.
Thomas: That's
Dan: People get very excited. Oh my God, you are, you named after the expressway.
And then they, and then after like a minute, they, I, I always joke and say, no, it was named after me. And then after a minute or two of talking, they start lamenting about how horrible the traffic is there. And, and it, it, it, it always, it, it's like getting a root canal after five seconds. But,
Thomas: Oh
Dan: how do you, in Chicago, in the Midwest, how do you create this Korean steakhouse, [00:12:00] Korean American steakhouse that invites guests who might be unfamiliar with what Korean cuisine is?
And was that also a goal of yours to, to help everyone experience the incredible nature of what Korean cuisine is?
Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. Dan, I think you, you nailed it right on the head. It's, You know, at the end of the day, seven years ago when Andy and I started our first restaurant together, um, our goal and mission has always been to. push the narrative and introduce Korean culture through Korean dining. And our job is to try to get kimchi and all of Korea's wonderful, You know, other elements in front of people's di in on the dinner table. And You know, like if, if it starts with like Korean fried chicken to get you in the door, um, and then we can teach you what is, then that's a big win for us, right? Because the
general perception of Korean food [00:13:00] is that it's either kimchi
or KB
and
Dan: all amazing and my favorites.
Thomas: Absolutely. Um, but when we decided to do the steakhouse. the word steakhouse was really important because of where we are. So for those of you that are for listeners, like we're as like, I think central as it gets for downtown Chicago, where like, where the river kind of starts to meet the, the lake. It's a very vibrant area of Chicago now. Um, and goal here is to try to introduce Korean food to the masses, right?
In the West Loop. That's like a very, that's a lot of neighborhoods, that's a lot of residential, that's a lot of the community of Chicago. But here we're introducing it to the vast public of people that are
visiting downtown Chicago. And that's a huge population of
everyone from around the world.
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: if
we can get people in the door through the word steakhouse, and then they're surprised to see some kimchi, some
SAML Jang, some SAML, [00:14:00] like then great, then
we've done our job and we're, we're introducing our culture and through our food to
more and more people.
Dan: Hmm.
Daphne: Um, I
Dan: What.
Daphne: add
something here,
Dan: go for it, Daphne.
Daphne: like, You know, as You know Dan, like, when you're
at Perilla, um, you got to
try so many different, like, side dishes. We call it Pancho. Um, so, You know, like sharing food that, sharing that experience, um, is a big part of Korean culture. It's very communal. Um, and like creates that relationship among people through sharing, um, the experience like by eating together and, You know, sharing that the soldier shop together. Um, so
it's that
Dan: Oh, there, you made me drink too many of those that night.
Daphne: so
Dan: were very well behaved, Daphne. I want everyone to know that you brought out the best slash worst of me in
by, by forcing me to drink the soju.
Daphne: wanted to show you how, You know, like we really do a [00:15:00] way as a Korean, You know, way.
it's
Dan: Yeah.
Daphne: coming together,
um, as a group and sharing the experience, and I think that's
really beautifully, um, showcase that Perilla Steakhouse in downtown Chicago and bringing everyone together, whether you speak different language, whether you have different background, but when everyone come together at Perilla and Hotel, you feel, you feel belonging there.
Dan: Daphne, I wanna speak more on the hotel side of things right now because in my experience at the Lotes I've stayed at around the world, I would say it's a luxury property, right? And then this L seven,
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Dan: say is more a luxury slash lifestyle or lifestyle slash luxury.
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Dan: one, one of the things I noticed and not,
not at any look, I guess it's very country specific at the Lotes that I've stayed at,
but if I walked into that or not, if when I walked into that L seven and into the lobby and up into the rooms, I didn't get any [00:16:00] sense that it was a Korean hotel at all.
But I, but I'm sure you brought references. From
your design palette that, but maybe it's not like hitting me in the face that this is a Korean hotel. Like what were, give us some examples of some of the materials or
or cultural references that you brought in to the design language.
Daphne: We definitely wanted to like, like have that Korean DNA, uh, built in, integrated where it's not. on your face
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Daphne: Um, so
like all the, throughout the color palette, we are actually like
looking into that Korean, um, sort of like the color palette. Um, from that you can see from Korean heritage like art, um, so like, the headboard color to the, the, um, lounge chair color to overall ff and e come together and create this like Korean color palette. Um, but also like if you look at the, [00:17:00] the, you're looking at the, the Korean art that you have
behind you,
Dan: I, I'm looking at,
as you,
said, the color palette. I wanted to look back at the, the piece of Korean art I had behind me, and it feels very similar. It has like those jewel tones that It's warm.
Daphne: actually
Dan: Huh?
Daphne: behind
Dan: you, did it.
Daphne: remind you
of the carpet, uh,
Dan: Yes.
Daphne: ex
Dan: Holy crap. That's totally by accident. Okay, great.
Daphne: So
Dan: wow. That's super cool.
Daphne: carpet to the all the f and d color overall together and also life fixture, um, the shape.
And we are wanting to create this like lantern, um,
the
profile design there as well.
Um, You know, we also have challenge with the, You know,
budget, but we came with this, You know, smart solution, how we can actually achieve, um, the design element, but still, um, You know, respect the budget, um, that we have.
So
Dan: hmm.
Daphne: a lot of, You know, like,
um, back and forth, but then like I think outcome was, um,
was a really [00:18:00] smart solution and we were able to, um, build in all this like Korean, um, heritage, DNA elements
into it.
Dan: so not only on the, the, the colors, the jewel tones and patterns that are behind me in this piece of art, but also those little compartments. I feel like the hotel has a lot of, little of those little compartments everywhere.
Daphne: Yeah. I think when we were like
looking into
like styling items, we were very like conscious about like the color
palettes
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Daphne: all gonna come together. Um, very like, um,
in a way, like how can we create a space that's like not loud, loudly Korean, but like hidden feature
Dan: Yeah.
there are a lot of cute, cute moments. Okay. You, yeah. Go.
Thomas: that just to, just to, just to celebrate what I think the work that's been done here is, is that to me it's like if, if you were talking it in restaurant terms, it would be like a, a really incredible burg, white, burgundy where like the oak is just perfectly integrated. It's not hitting you in the face like [00:19:00] a two by four, like some Napa Valley Chardonnay.
It's just perfectly woven in. And I think that's
what I see throughout this
Daphne: Yeah.
Thomas: is as a
Korean, you, you do
Daphne: Mm
Thomas: and you, you see all these, you catch all
these little Yeah.
Um,
Daphne: probably, um, Thomas probably you can see the bull joggy, um, the moments at the restaurant too. So that's kind of like the, the Korean way of like weaving different, uh, patches of work, fabric work to create. Um, we created this like beautiful, um, drapery moment. Um, and, You know, it's like, it's, it's not loud, but it's the old, everything is in that detail.
Dan: Thomas opening and actually being a part of the opening of the, of, of the L seven Korean Hotel. Not, it's not the L seven Korean hotel, but the L seven hotel in Chicago, and then also your, your Korean American steakhouse. What's, what surprised you the most about the reception of Korean [00:20:00] culture
and cuisine into Chicago?
Thomas: Um, so I think, I think there's been, it's, there's been a lot. I, that's a tough, I, that's a little bit, that's a tough question because. So we, we've, we've had a Korean restaurant in downtown Chicago. But being here at this location, um, am seeing a vast array of different people coming into our restaurant than we had in the West Loop.
And I think that for me and uh, everyone here at this restaurant, it's been such a big highlight. Uh, something that we, I think naturally anticipated and aim for as a target and goal was how do we get more, how do we get the tourists of Chicago to come and visit this restaurant? Um, because I think what maybe some
listeners don't understand is like this entire area here is usually filled with like
a
lot of corporate big chain
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: restaurant groups, and bigger hospitality groups in Chicago. We're one of the very few small independent restaurant owners that are existing in this [00:21:00] landscape over here. So it was a big one, a challenge, um, but. Seeing the excitement of people that are coming in from all different parts of the world. We get a lot of European travelers, a lot of South American travelers coming in here. exciting for me and for the team here, for them to come into our space. Um, and like Daphne said, like maybe they're not, like, we're not screaming this is Korean to them,
but they're loving these, the, the design of this
restaurant and the hotel
Daphne: and the food.
Thomas: yeah. What,
Dan: Oh, the food. Yeah.
Thomas: and, at the end of the
day it's, it's, it's,
warming to hear
how much people are
loving all of these elements,
um, and the
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: And, um,
because to me, again, it's like then we're doing what we
we're making, the impact that we, we
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: which was to push this dialogue and narrative that Korean restaurants, Korean [00:22:00] culture is. Something
that's like only out of necessity, cheap plastic, You
know?
Daphne: It's elevated food experience. I would say like every time I go try Pearl of Steak, like I'm always amazed that like the menu that you guys create is like, exceptional. Like so much. There's like dynamite in my mouth,
Dan: Yes.
Well, I agree. It was really fantastic and the presentation was incredible. And Daphne, I guess for you, as far as
if people and, and as people go and explore the, let's say the restaurant in particular, right? And they experience the Korean cuisine and the design,
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Dan: but also in the rooms, if they stay in the hotel, what would you hope that that'll help them discover as they first exper for a person who's first experiencing Korean qui cuisine and design?
Daphne: Yeah, I mean, like I think from staying at L seven Chicago and trying Perla [00:23:00] Steak, um, You know, they'll be more curious about knowing, um, exploring Korean more different Korean cuisine or ex. Wanting to check out, You know, different, um, I dunno, K-pop to Korean beauty. Um, it's, it just opens up curiosity of the people who walks through that property basically. Um, which I'm very happy to see that, that it just opens that Pandora box for, um, their curiosity.
Dan: Hmm. And Thomas, how about you?
Thomas: Yeah.
I think it's,
uh, it's,
it's what we both spoke on, which is, You know, at the end of the day we want people to start to peel some layers back, right? Start to discover that there's way more to this than just, You know, K-pop demon hunters, and, um, know, and, and, and just like the basic kind of first layer of things that people, when they think of Korean culture. That there's also this, um, refinement, there's like this elegance, there's like a [00:24:00] perseverance and determination, of, of our people that like, I feel like the modern Korean food scene is just beginning. I feel like we're scratching the surface with like Otto Mix and PDU in LA
and You know, I think that
Dan: Oh my gosh. I'm with
Thomas: as
Dan: Coat in Miami and New York, like it's all happening.
Daphne: Yeah.
Thomas: And I feel like, uh, we're just, we're just getting the work started here. And I think the hope, my hope is, um, You know, when we, when we talk about Asian restaurants, um, and, and, You know, all things Asian culture that we're not talking about cheap scarcity, You know, poverty, that there's like a, a beauty, a refinement and elegance to all of this. Um, and I, I'm just excited for people to
Dan: But I also, I know you joke, you were joking about, uh, the K-pop. Demon slayers, but, and also just K-pop in general, but, and, and, and [00:25:00] skincare. I don't know which one of you was talking about the skincare, but like I'm telling you, the, i, the most recognized celebrities in the world right now are
from the K-pop scene.
Daphne: Yeah.
Dan: globally, and then all the, the skincare stuff and the, the culture, the, the food that's having a moment in this remix, um, in this kind of modern up like super luxury elevated, uh, presentation of the food. Korean culture is definitely having a moment right now. And it's pretty incredible. And I agree with you, Thomas.
It's, it seems to be, or we all seem to be, at least in America on the front, on the leading, not leading edge, the leading edge is Korea. But it's like we're, we're all first starting to appreciate at scale this remixed kind of Korean culture coming in via food, music,
uh, and, and skincare health. Health and wellness.
Um, what do you, how do you see that? Are there any other green shoots that you could share, Thomas, about how that's penetrating, [00:26:00] um, America, Europe, the rest of the world, like what's happening in the vanguard of this, uh, Korean
resurgence or insurgence?
Thomas: I think all of us in the community are incredibly excited about where this, You know, quote unquote K
wave is going. Um, but I also, I also know that it's also scary that, that sometimes these things can be a, You know,
we can get pigeonholed into like what, what this
means and where it's limited
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: And my only hope is that as we push this conversation forward, that. Um, it's opening up more
avenues of interest to what other things
our culture has, has,
Daphne: Yeah.
Thomas: already had, um,
and also can provide
Daphne: I think,
Thomas: and
Daphne: I think Thomas, Tom, like Thomas and I are basically on that frontline to really needs to keep shaping, [00:27:00] You know, this stream, um, where it's going and keep defining,
Dan: I personally love the idea of the K wave. I've never heard of that before, but that's probably 'cause I just don't pay attention to a lot of things. But I, but in what you're saying and what I'm seeing you do and how you're building your business, you are paddling like crazy on your surfboard,
trying, getting that good wave, you're, you're like positioning yourself ahead of that K wave.
So,
Daphne: day,
Dan: yeah. So what's it, okay, so you, as a new, as a newer entrepreneur, how do you, how do you feel about that? Like, how are you as an entrepreneur, forget the Korea thing. How are you paddling and what are you learning from paddling based on your experience thus far?
Daphne: so far?
it's been about a year that, um. I've been doing my solo journey. Um, but I must say, You know, like it's, the relationship or the way I work hasn't changed anything. Um, 'cause it's all about like [00:28:00] collaboration. It's all about working with, like, it's a, it's a huge teamwork. Um, it's not just me designing.
There's so many people involved. Um, and it's, it's the, so I'm doing the same thing as like how I used to do. Um, but now I have to take on all that, um, behind the scene back, You know, the admin stuff and all that, You know, the, the not so fun stuff. So, um, but it's also like, it's. Really humbling me that what it takes to, um, run a business.
It really, um, give me this whole bigger like, perspective of wow, like I have more respect towards, to Rockwell in design and all the, You know, company that I worked with before that. Wow, this, this takes a village. Yeah.
Dan: It, it does. But also you as a, as a, a new-ish [00:29:00] entrepreneur,
you came to the US when you were 17, and you did not master the eng English. You did not have mastery of the English language then.
And like, to me, aside from doing all the cool, incredible things that you've done along your career path and learning a new, a new language and doing all this and making relationships, it's incredible.
Like how, how
how did you not let the language thing become a barrier?
Daphne: I think, You know, it's actually sort of like when I first moved here when I was 17, not knowing how to speak English properly at all. And I'm still learning English, but, um, it, it was really stressful and challenging back then. But now I look back, actually it like opened up because like it was sink or swim situation.
So like I had to sort of like push myself to, know, fit in and like keep going. And I think that mentality still lives with me that [00:30:00] I don't, okay. Like I don't really know properly do something, but I'm just gonna start doing it and I'll figure it out as I go. So that kind of like, just doing it and then if, You know, always kind of like tell myself that, like, okay, um, I wish I was like a rocket science scientist, but I am not a rocket scientist.
But like, what I'm trying to solve here is, um. Uh, I'll be able to find a solution. So, You know, and I work with a lot of amazing people around me, um,
and
Dan: Hmm.
Daphne: finding solution together always, and it's, um, as long as I'm willing
to work together. Um, yeah, it's, it's a,
and, but Well,
actually,
can I share this quick story?
Dan: absolutely.
Daphne: so I want
Dan: Well actually wait one second before you share the story. 'cause I don't want it to be the sa, like, I hope it's not the one I wanted to bring up, which is, I know because I heard you say you're not a rocket scientist, right?
But you [00:31:00] are now an expert, exhaust scientist and you did have a huge challenge as it relates to the restaurant because.
Apparently, and you can tell the story better than I can, the, you had to have this huge exhaust ducting system put up on the roof of the very tall building, and I don't remember if it was a crane or a helicopter that had to come through helicopter and shut it all down, but also like you must have learned so much about exhaust and, and
fluid dynamics and all of these other things to get that done.
Were you tell us about that.
Daphne: the end of the day, it's a full, um, collaboration, right? There's like, behind the scenes there's a huge team of gc, there's a mechanical engineer, there's a, um, architect, like, You know, so it's like the end of the day, we're all trying to come together to a solution that's gonna work but also looks beautiful. Um, so yeah, going back to earlier on that like, it's really a [00:32:00] team work. Like I never say like, I did that, I designed this, I solved this. It, I always say we did that. It's our work because I cannot just put a name tag on, um, final product.
Sponsor: Hey, everybody. We've been doing this podcast for over three years now, and one of the themes that consistently comes up is sustainability, and I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor, Berman Fall Hospitality Group is the first within our hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.
Please check out their impact page in the show notes for more info.
Dan: did I interrupt that story or were you, were you gonna tell a different one?
Daphne: actually I feel like I'm like jumping around,
Dan: That's okay. That, that's the beauty of the podcast. There's no rules.
Daphne: I mean, so like, You know, like not knowing, um, English very well and then going through high school and then I went to architecture school in [00:33:00] Chicago. Um, because my parents being Asian parents, they wanted me to go to like school, but I really wanted to go to art school. So we made a, a kind of middle ground that I went to architecture school. Um, but, but like, I didn't actually know about hospitality, back then. Um, but there was this hotel, um, 2011 just opened when I was in college, public hotel,
um, by
Dan: Oh yeah.
Daphne: and,
um. At the time I was working at a part-time job
at a library. At the college library, um, making, I don't know, below $10 or $8, but like I'll save that money and then go to the public hotel, um, lobby and get a cocktail.
Probably I'll like spend the
month
Dan: A
Daphne: that I earned.
Dan: yeah, A
month or a, yeah, I was gonna say a week. A week's wages to buy the cocktail. Yeah.
Daphne: as a, You know, like [00:34:00] for me that was such a special experience that like, I felt accepted. I didn't need to be Korean. I didn't need to be American. It just trans. Transport me to this like new world
that like it doesn't, you don't need to be anyone, and this is
like a whole sort of like fantasy world as as soon you walk in the smell of the lobby and like the ambient of the hotel.
It's just that I was like blown away and then now I think about it, it's like, oh wow, like actually connects dot that. Like maybe I was, that's why drawn to where I'm at now.
Dan: Yeah. Well what's interesting about that story, Daphne, is that
you and Thomas both talk about hospitality as far as like as making
Daphne: Hmm.
Dan: strangers feel as if they belong, right? And even by all the things that you do from food and design. So, Thomas, since opening Perilla, is there, [00:35:00] can you share a moment when I'm, I'm trying to think like maybe a, uh, one of a guest has come in and never had a Korean barbecue or a Korean steak experience, and it, but it doesn't have to be defined by that, but can you think about a time when a stranger came in.
Gave you some kind of a feedback or your team, some kind of a feedback that, that then you were like, yes, this is exactly why we did this. Like what, what validated the proof of concept?
Is there a story that you could share?
Thomas: You know, I, I can't think of a particular story, but I can tell you this, that it happens every single
Dan: Oh, even better.
Thomas: there's the little victories, and
those are. Really what keep us going, right? And, uh, you hear this all the time from a lot of restaurateurs, um, especially new ones, um, about how challenging this industry is, right?
About how um, the work is and how slim the margins are. Um, and I can tell you this, that if there's any restaurateurs [00:36:00] listening to this, they'll probably agree and shake their head up and down with
this, is that, um, the, the, it's the little victories
every single day that keep
Daphne: Yeah.
Thomas: um, day by day and day.
I've, I definitely come across a guest, um, in any one of our restaurants, um, especially here, um, that maybe it's their first time trying mi cook in a breakfast panang that we do here. Um, You know, or Muk, or they've never heard that there was more than one kimchi. my favorite thing is when people are like, wait, that's also kimchi.
This is also kimchi. And I'm like, there's over 3000 times of kimchi in Korea. Like
Dan: Whoa.
Thomas: technique, not a dish. And again, it's like that, know, Andy has this thing, he always says that, and I always quote him on this 'cause
it's so beautiful. It's like, um, You know, food
is a catalyst to bringing
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: together at the dinner table and, You know, whether, whatever it [00:37:00] is, like,
it's the food at the end of the day that maybe opens up conversation
and opens up
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: I just get excited about this every time, every day I see someone kind of treading their feet lightly into the restaurant. For me, I look at that as an opportunity to, to turn someone on to something new that they've never had before. You know, I watch people eat marinated kabi, which is Gabi. 'cause I cook, I cook for them here at the tables. And Dan and I and Daphne, I can, I can't even ex express in words what it's like to watch someone eat a piece of Australian Wagyu marinated short rib
they eat it and they're just like, don't know what's happening in
their minds, but it's like
Daphne: Blown away.
Dan: I had that experience when Daphne was throwing shots down my throat amongst our whole table, and it was like, I didn't know which was which, which was, [00:38:00] uh, which I needed to be more concerned about how much of the, of the short rib I was going to eat or how much soju I was drinking.
Um, but yeah, it was, it was good.
Thomas: of both.
Daphne: um, dining experience. Yeah.
It,
Dan: Yeah.
Thomas: eat to drink and you
drink to
Daphne: Yeah.
Thomas: never do one
without the other in Korean
Dan: So,
Daphne, I have a question for you and I'm, I'm, after I ask you this and you answer it, I'm gonna
flip the question around back to Thomas, but what's something that you wish operators,
um, understood about design better?
Daphne: Oh, this is a challenging question because ev I would say every operator is different. Um, so the challenge is every time different. Um, but as a designer, You know, usually like biggest challenge for me is the timeline and the budget. Right. I think the, from the get go, um, if we work together as a, You know, [00:39:00] together on the, we are informed with the budget and the timeline from the beginning, and then trying to find a solution together from the beginning, I think that's a better success. Um, 'cause a lot of times, uh, when we don't have that clear, um, You know, milestone, um, we have to come back and designed
and
Dan: Hmm.
Daphne: uh, um,
throughout that schedule. so I think just
being mindful from the, from the beginning and work together as a team, I
think that's
Dan: Great.
Daphne: good solution.
Dan: Great. answer. And Thomas, what do you think something designers wish operators under? Or, I'm sorry, what do you think? Something that, yeah, designers wish operators understood better.
Thomas: I love this question because remember when we first got the
word that we were gonna work with ACO
and I was like, was like, You know, for, for Andy, myself, and Alvin, I want you to understand, and for listeners, it's like we're a small independent restaurant group in Chicago and it's like [00:40:00] this was a dream come
Dan: I.
Thomas: And we were like so excited, but we were also
very nervous. We were like, are we gonna have our input? Can, are they gonna listen to our ideas? And I can tell you this and, and I'm sure there's some operators listening that's like, I'm a very low, like I worked in this industry, Andy, and
cooked in his twenties.
We, we, we both have
over 20 years of experience 'cause we've
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: this industry. You know,
starting at the carryout window. So for me, it's like
there's a lot of form over
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: in my thought process.
I
need a bar to work as
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: needs to look good. And I
think the struggle that we have
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: with restaurant
tours, you'll get people that don't necessarily work in this industry
designing restaurants, bars,
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: with not taking into
account the functional needs of a
restaurant for a team to succeed.
We definitely had those
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: And You know, like, like anywhere you're gonna have challenges because every
space is different, where
Daphne: Yeah.
Thomas: lines are, where [00:41:00] electric is.
Um, and I think
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: of the
day, you just need to try to find
a, harmony between
you and the design team to be like, we love this,
but we really need
that.
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: I think that at the end of the day, we did the best that we
could here and it's a beautiful
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: out of. The team is very happy and uh, we get. I also like, another thing is like, you should have seen what this place was
Dan: Yeah.
Thomas: It was, it was
Dan: Well,
Thomas: they,
they've done an
incredible job
here.
Like, it's
Daphne: Yeah.
Dan: it also helps when you hire a designer and, and Daphne is working on it, and she has her helicopter pilot's license, so,
so she could land the exhaust system on
top of the building.
Thomas: Yeah. And I, I wanna say like when we, when we knew, when we met
with the team and we knew Daphne
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: this, there was an actual level of excitement coming from the Perilla side of things and the partners, because we really were excited with the idea of like, wow, they really gonna understand what we're looking for.
There's a Korean here that understands our, [00:42:00] our diaspora and our culture. And, and this was, this was a really exciting project and I, and I'm very, very proud of it. I, I tell people all the
time, um, go for the food, but the, the design.
Dan: Yeah.
Daphne, if, if. I know you design so many other things, Daphne, and you have over your career that are not necessarily Korean influence, right? That's your, that's your life experience that you're bringing to whatever, but you, you're designing for anything. But if you could create one dream project that expresses Korean cultures through hospitality, what would it be?
Daphne: I mean, like personally, I actually really love doing hotel. Um, Hmm. what I've been
doing the most, um, throughout my hospitality design. Um. World. just because, You know, I think like going back to being that immigrant person that like, You know, hotel is just something that very special that like, for everyone that like, it really creates a [00:43:00] space to welcome anyone from any background.
Um, so like that's something very special in me. Yeah.
Dan: Hmm. And how about you, Thomas?
Daphne: I know your
answer. We talked
about this the other day.
Thomas: oh. Please. What, what, what
Dan: Oh, speak for him.
Daphne: That,
you're gonna have this amazing
cafe bar
Thomas: Oh, oh, yeah. That's definitely,
that'll, that'll happen.
Daphne: in the future.
Thomas: but, but I think yeah, in the future, but I, I honestly, um, I don't know. I feel very blessed. I feel like I'm living it. I feel like, um, I'm living it every day that we operate and get to introduce our food and culture to people. Um, You know, and I think that that was a, that's been a mission of ours.
And, and You know, when I say ours, Andy and I have been both working tirelessly long and hard hours in this industry for a very long time under the guise of other restaurateurs and, uh, serving [00:44:00] other cultures, food. And it's, it's been a, a long dream come true to, um, to work together and, uh, and serve Korean food.
And it's, and. Yeah,
Dan: And then Daphne, for you, if someone walked into Perilla or a space designed by you 20 years from now and said, You know, oh, there's something super special about this place. I can't quite put my finger on it. What would you say that, that something special was?
Daphne: Huh.
Dan: what would you hope that, that something special was?
Daphne: That's actually interesting question because like I wonder 20 years later, what will be like the Korean culture influence, um, here? Um, I hope that the Perilla stake and also L seven, um, is a timeless design that like, even 20 years later, that it still feels very, You know, it, it doesn't feel outdated.
It's holding up well [00:45:00] and, uh, feels, um, still elegant as it is. Um, so I think, yeah,
Dan: Awesome. And then Thomas, what about you if someone were to walk, do you have like a 20 year lease there? How? How long is your lease?
Thomas: Uh, well, the whole, it's up to, it's up to lte. So I, I hope this is standing in 20 years. Uh, I think that the team did in such an incredible job. I think it is a timeless design. I think that, because of how well integrated some of these cultural elements are in this space, um, and how beautifully it's done, I think that it's gonna stand the te the test of time.
And, You know, going back to like Daphne's story at about the public, like, You know, when we first met with them, like Ian Schrager, some of his
properties are, are, are actually a big in, they're, they have a lot of influence
on, on the three of
Daphne: Oh,
really? I didn't know that.
Thomas: oh yeah. Oh yeah. I, I,
actually stay at the public every time I
Daphne: Oh,
Thomas: in
soho. And, um, I, I love,
Daphne: yeah. I, I
I have a huge crush.
Thomas: property. [00:46:00] Yeah. I've been to all the addition
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: that, um, as I grow and mature and I
travel and I explore these beautiful
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: starting to realize how much the design is subtly influencing my
experience and the feeling that it gives me. Um,
and I appreciate it more than
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: Um, You know, back when I was just trying to save a dollar on a hotel room, I, I look for
those experiences now because I think that design has such a
powerful impact on your
Daphne: Yeah.
Thomas: I hope
that, in 20 years
people walk into this restaurant and
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Thomas: and they feel that
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Well, one of the things I can say is that most hotels get their f and b experience completely wrong. Like it's either just for the guests
or it, it's not really meant to engage the outside community. And I think what you guys have created there is something where the outside community is coming in for this awesome dining experience, but it also [00:47:00] dovetails nicely in with the hotel.
But there, I don't, I don't know the business model, but I don't think that there. Necessarily dependent on either one, but they're accretive towards each other in the sense that one plus one equals three in what, what's created there. So do you have any stories, Thomas, about or, or anecdotal evidence about how you guys both feed off of each other and maybe you might bring new guests or new people in, but the, the, the ho the guests in the hotel might not have considered or ever had Korean barbecue.
Like
tell us what that, a story from that perspective.
Thomas: so I, I'll tell you one recently. Um. you know, there's a very famous Korean person that just happened to be visiting Chicago because their family just donated in a massive collection of some of Korea's oldest art to the Chicago Art Institute here. And, um, You know, I got word from, from, uh, a concierge, uh, friend of mine, um, that, uh, this [00:48:00] person, I, I'll leave the person nameless
Dan: That's fine. Yeah, that respect, respect.
Thomas: Um, and You know, I, I, it's, again, it's like one of those instances where they weren't here because of this hotel. were, they reached out because of this restaurant.
Dan: Really
Thomas: I, and, and, and, You know, I, we made it
happen and we got this, this table in here, very high profile person, and they had such a wonderful experience and I was elated by the feedback that they were providing. Um, and to their surprise, they didn't know that there was like a hotel above us, right. And.
Dan: Well, I, that's actually super interesting 'cause I've stayed there countless times and although right when you walk in, there's a wide open entrance into the restaurant. I had no idea the, the restaurant was there until you and I were, we were all talking and then I went there. But, but even though I walk, 'cause mostly I get in early or late.
Well, normally I get in earlier or late and I'm not at the hotel right. I'm just there to [00:49:00] sleep, but. I just had no idea. And, but that's also a testament to how when you do step back and look at it, they both fit really well together. Like it's, it's, it's really a perfect match.
Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, I think there's a beautiful harmony in the design between the restaurant the
Dan: Hmm.
Thomas: Um, and I think there's that, that, that woven kind of like common denominator is just like, felt throughout the space.
Um, but yeah, I think that, uh, I think both of these
things are supplementing each other
really well.
Daphne: it's like one the other, like the other is like not dominating. Like they're balancing each
other basically.
Dan: balanced. That's what it's,
Daphne: Um, and also it's like, I think
it's
interesting that maybe, um, Thomas, how did Lotte approached, uh, such small, uh, restaurant group? I actually,
Dan: oh yeah. That's a great question.
Daphne: like, I would think, You know, like usually, You know, like Ro could work
with such big [00:50:00] company like Boca or, You know.
Thomas: right. so. At the, at the end of the day, there was, um, there was a, a, uh, president of Lotte North America that, uh, one day kind of snuck into our other restaurant in the West Loop. You know, just being the, the manager at the time, I kind of like always went through emails at the, at the host stand and I noticed that there was a Lotte email attached to this guest.
And, um. You know, I just wanted to make sure that this person had a great time. And so I told Andy, and, uh, You know, we sent a couple extra plates out. I, I just did what I always do with service. And the end of the night, he slipped me his card and said that we're, he's very interested in talking to us, and that he spoke to three of his most trusted colleagues in Chicago and asked who the best Korean restaurant was.
And, uh, we were on that list and a short list. And so, yeah, we were really fortunate. My mom could not believe me that we were doing a restaurant with Lotte. Um, as a, as a, You know, someone who was raised, [00:51:00] born in 1954 in Korea. Um, yeah, she was, she was over the moon. She couldn't believe it. Andy's mom was freaking out as
Dan: Oh my gosh, that's such a, that's such a special story. And I, I have to share also, without going too far down into this story, but when I was there with Daphne, it was almost a year to the day after I had this breakthrough almost, um, back to the future flex capacitor moment of rethinking, uh, my business model, right?
And just running projects differently and everything else. And one of the guests at the, at the dinner was at that place directly across the street. I don't know how that happened, but it was, the whole world was coming together and it's really important, like as much as people talk about AI and technology, that moment that you had right there of looking.
Who was coming in and saw that they had a lot email. You didn't have any, you weren't expecting anything from it, but you were like, You know what?
Daphne: Mm-hmm.
Dan: is a Korean thing. I wanna like do something [00:52:00] a little bit different and make that stand out. And I think that in all of hospitality, from all the conversations I have, it's all about those small human moments that I hope humans will be the only ones that can ever do forever.
But to me it, that's why it's so important that we all have to be in a place where we are able to deliver that hospitality and make that other person feel welcome and some more welcome than others. Because You know,
there's this cultural connection that you have.
Thomas: Right.
Daphne: percent.
Yeah.
Thomas: just, just like the, the, that that moment of,
had I not been there that night, had Andy not been cooking there that
night, uh,
Daphne: It, it was the
Thomas: yeah.
You know, opportunity and
Daphne: Yeah.
Thomas: luck. It's just,
like, I don't
Daphne: and yeah,
Thomas: is just
Daphne: and I feel like, yeah, I think you, that's really right. Say that like you don't know when these opportunity gonna. Come to you and you just have to be ready to grab it [00:53:00] when it shows up. And I think, um, that, with that mindset, it's like that's sort of like how I go about with this new, uh, venture that I'm taking.
Dan: Totally. And, but that, that always goes back to the same adage. Um, I don't know who said it. I'm sure it was said multiple ways by multiple people, but it's like the harder I work,
the lucky or I become right? Because
you gotta be able, you gotta be taking the shots. You're not gonna make the shots you don't take.
Um, and with that, I would just like to say thank you both for. A, giving me an incredible experience at, uh, Perilla and also just all the work at that hotel, uh, that we completed as Berman Falk, Daphne. So thank you. Thank you, thank you. Um, Thomas, thank you for everything that you do. It's so wonderful to meet you, and I wish you tremendous success, uh, Daphne.
I have no doubt about you being tremendously successful. Um, but thank you. Thank you both.
Daphne: Thank you so much, Dan. This was so much fun.
Dan: [00:54:00] Uh, yes. An incredible amount of fun. Especially this time. I wasn't drinking so much so juice. So I won't have a hangover when I wake up and try and catch a flight tomorrow.
Daphne: in Chicago, we'll do um, round two at Perla.
Don't
Dan: I may.
It may. Uh, oh my gosh. My liver.
Thomas: be here
Daphne: Yeah,
Dan: okay. My liver is, is screaming at me right now. Um,
Daphne: another Korean face mask the next day, so you'll look
great.
Dan: we should dine with the Korean face masks. I think that would be wonderful. Um. Also thank you to our listeners. 'cause without you tuning in every week, we wouldn't be here talking to incredible entrepreneurs like these two. Um, thank you all very much. Don't forget to like and subscribe and if you think someone can benefit from this in any way, shape or form, please pass it along.
We grow a lot or organically by word of mouth and I appreciate you very much and we'll catch you next time.
[00:55:00]