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The cost & courage of caring - stories that spark resilience.
Welcome back to The Caregiver's
Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mark Ropaleski, and you can call
me Dr.
Mark.
Before we begin, please take a
moment to subscribe or follow The
Caregiver's Podcast wherever
you're listening or watching.
It's free, it helps support the
show, and it helps these
conversations reach more
caregivers and families who may
need them.
Today, we're welcoming Amy
Vasterling back to the show.
The first time Amy was here, we
talked about caregiving inside
dysfunctional families.
What happens when boundaries are
treated like betrayal, when the
reliable person becomes the
assumed caregiver,
and when siblings don't share the
load, and when caregiving pulls an
adult child back into old family
patterns?
That conversation clearly
resonated with caregivers.
So today, we're going deeper.
Because one of the hardest parts
of caregiving inside a
dysfunctional family is what
happens after you finally see that
pattern clearly.
You may do real work on yourself,
and you may go to therapy.
You may understand the guilt, the
manipulation, the pressure, and
the way your family is always
assigned responsibility.
But your awareness does not
automatically wake up the rest of
the family.
And in some families, the pattern
does not simply sit there, it
actually protects itself.
The people who benefit from things
staying the same may push back.
The sibling may seem to see the
truth for a moment, then collapse
back under the pressure.
The family may circle the wagons.
The person naming what is
happening may suddenly be treated
as a threat.
So today, we're talking about the
price of getting free.
What happens when a caregiver sees
dysfunctional family patterns
clearly, but still has to care
tomorrow?
How do you keep showing up for
real needs without surrendering
your life to guilt, manipulation,
coercion, control, and eventual
invisibility?
Amy, welcome back to the show.
Amy Vasterling, welcome back to
the Caregiver's Podcast.
Thanks for having me, Mark.
I'm happy to be back.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're so happy that you are
back visiting with us, and we have
so much more to explore.
So in the tradition of things
here, we're going to jump right
in.
Amy, can you tell me what changes
in a caregiver when they finally
see the dysfunctional family
pattern clearly,
but the family still expects them
to stay quiet, absorb the
disrespect, and keep sacrificing
so everyone can just remain
comfortable in their roles?
Yeah, I think there's an initial
resentment of the realization and,
in a way, shock, you know, of how
do I know this, and yet I can't
reveal it.
I can't tell them directly.
And I think that's the source of a
lot of our pain in the world, is
not knowing where we stand, or
being able to convey, this is my
need, or this is how it can be.
This is, as I've said in the last
one, you know, who I can and can't
be.
So I think that's where it starts,
is you know something, but you
can't really say it.
You know, and it's the status quo.
We have to find a way to say it.
We have to find a way to build
that position of, this is where we
stand, in order to feel safe, I
believe, and feel powerful.
It's amazing how that recognition
can feel so liberating, but at the
same time, so devastating, when a
caregiver realizes the disrespect
all along was not accidental.
Right.
And the family still expects them
to actually keep accepting it.
Yeah, and I see that in my work,
is it's carrying a lie, and so we
feel that position of, I've been
living in a way that isn't real,
or, you know, we have, I think it
goes different ways for different
people, but there's some
underlying position of, what does
this really mean?
And there's a beautiful moment
there, too, of what's possible,
but I think the grief at first is
there and strong, and that's hard,
very hard.
Can that grief last a long time?
It can, you know, and I think we
might address it, and then it
comes around again in, excuse me,
I'm going to just pause a second.
So, I think that it comes around
again and again, and we can
address it, and then it might pop
up again, and we aren't expecting
it, of course we aren't.
You know, maybe it was a
conversation with a friend or
something that kind of pushed us
there, but there's beauty in that,
too.
In being able to see it again at
another angle, and the problem is
we have to address.
We have to stick with what makes
us uncomfortable, and again, in my
work, I say, deal with ourselves
behind the scenes.
Hold the tension of it until we
can see what this can produce that
can change something, whether it's
with that friend saying a
statement that changes the
relationship, or that we resolve
it with ourself behind the scenes,
and we, in essence, have worked a
forgiveness pattern so that they
and we feel a different energy
between each other.
That can be powerful, too.
That can certainly capture energy
towards healing and a fresh
self-realization, if you will, but
when a caregiver finally sees the
dysfunctional family pattern
clearly, I mean, it's so natural
to want other people in the family
to see it, too.
What happens when they try to wake
everyone up, but the family either
denies it, resents them for naming
it, or briefly sees it, but then
collapses back into that old
pattern?
Well, the beauty right there of
exactly what you described so
succinctly shows that you're in a
narcissistic patterned family.
Because when they see it and they
fall back in or collapse into it,
they are following that pattern of
narcissism.
So, that is then undeniable for
the caregiver to say, this is
indeed what's going on.
Because I think sometimes what can
be difficult, too, is when we have
that patterning, we're told to
second-guess it and second-guess
ourselves.
We might be wrong.
We might be doing it incorrectly.
And that, as a result, can leave
us really confused.
But now we have the clarity, and
we need to step forward and make
choices around what is possible
and what's right for us.
And that's where I think it's
really hard for the caregiver.
Because caregivers that naturally
step up to do that tend to care.
They want to show up.
They want to help.
And they might have to realize
this isn't a place they actually
are capable of helping.
And that's a hard thing to look at
and to, you know, resolve within
oneself to accept.
That's a better way to say it, to
accept.
Yeah, I mean, and let alone taking
those first steps or, you know,
doing that preliminary testing of
how that redefined self can
function in that family pattern.
And it's not a very hospitable
ground to do that testing.
Well, so I have some tips for
that.
And this might be hard to convey
on a podcast.
But I had somebody in my life who
was very arrogant.
And at events, they would push
each person's buttons.
And I decided to look at who I
could and couldn't be for that
person.
And over two months of kind of
wrestling with myself, what I came
to see is I could be very little
if I'm really almost nothing for
them emotionally or mentally.
But I could help them physically.
I could come and shovel their walk
or fix their roof or do, you know,
redo their plumbing.
And once I decided that, I could
hold love for them that was true
and pure, but without any
attachment to it, I guess, or any
need within it.
And once I did that, the person
stopped behaving that way with me,
but was behaving with the rest of
the group that way.
So it changed something in the
relationship to set that dynamic
up and recognize who I can and
can't be for them.
And I realized they couldn't be
much.
I never knew that until I looked
at it.
It's interesting.
It's almost like that concept of
gray rocking, but taking it to the
next level.
But for our listeners today who
may not have heard the last
episode and time we spent
together, you know, you referred
to narcissistic patterns where
there's so much awareness of
narcissism and dark triad
personality traits these days.
Can we just define a little bit
and just review narcissistic
social disordering?
Yeah.
Just from the point of view of the
family, because I think if we
think of the family as an entity,
as opposed to a person, you could
sort of see where the explanation
starts to make sense.
But I'd like to hear it in your
words.
Yeah.
Thanks for that.
I really don't cling to
narcissism, even though I've used
that term here.
I do call it narcissistic social
disordering.
And I think of it as it's a pool
we are all swimming in, regardless
of if we think we are or we
aren't.
But when we're in a family dynamic
that has a narcissist, and we're
pretty sure that's what's going
on, the social disordering causes,
I mean, in my son's words, who's
in physics, he was saying to me
that magnets, once they're heated
to a certain state, that they
disorder.
And I think of the heat as the
narcissist, and the magnet is the
codependent, or what I say is the
enabler, the one who, when the
narcissist threatens or is the
authoritarian, the enabler feels
sorry for the others and tries to
reclaim that and make the others
feel good.
Like, you can do the thing they
said, you know, but do it sneaky
or secretively.
We start making these kind of
underhanded deals, or we start to
not tell the truth.
And that's what follows the line
of people not getting their needs
really met in a pure, true way.
They don't know where they stand.
They become uncomfortable.
And the narcissist keeps
perpetuating instead of the
clarity of, that's not right.
Or the enabler stopping and
saying, what are you going to do
about that when that person yells
at you?
How can I help?
And they might say, I need $10,000
to go to a therapist.
And you say, I can't be that.
I can give two.
But if you come up with the eight,
like, we can also be very
realistic about it.
We don't have to give everything.
So just so I understand, so the
listeners understand, does there
have to be a narcissist
protagonist within the family to
have narcissistic social
disordering in the family?
Not necessarily that it may not
even look that way.
I even had somebody in my life
that was an, it's almost like they
were an alcoholic without the
alcohol.
And everybody in that dynamic
would say that about that person.
So there was no behavior in that
direction.
So you're right, Mark.
It might be unrecognizable.
It also, and this is why I also
call it social disordering, is
it's not that I'm talking about
this 1% of people who have this
disorder in this way.
I'm talking about how we're in the
swimming pool of it.
It is so prevalent because, to me,
it's a needs-based problem.
And we've all had a lot of needs
gone unmet because of the lack of
clear communication.
I mean, the pattern is so strong
and powerful and has such a draw.
Why can it hurt so much when a
sibling seems to understand the
pattern for a moment but then
cannot stand with you once the
usual guilt and pressure and
manipulation starts up again?
Because of isolation.
It's a sense of we want to belong.
And that's why we hang in those
systems and that disordering.
But when the sibling backs off,
what we can really recognize is
the opposite of what is happening
there.
You are being brave by recognizing
it's going on and looking at what
can I do to change that for
myself, meaning you might have to
have boundaries or step away.
But when the sibling isn't willing
to come into it, they're showing
you how terrified they are of
several things.
The lack of belonging could be
abandonment.
I mean, it could be a host of
things.
I mean, there's so many steps in
the transition for caregivers if
they're going to make that leap.
I mean, many caregivers are not
just upset that the family
caregiving burden is unfair.
They're upset because once they
finally name how unfair it is, the
family still expects them to keep
carrying it.
I mean, what happens to a
caregiver when the imbalance is no
longer hidden, but everyone just
keeps reinforcing it anyway?
Well, they have to be stronger
than it.
And that is where we tend to cave,
is we, because we're carers by
nature, we have empathy.
We want to help.
We have to look at the better
thing is for the situation to
learn on its own, for there to be
some consequences for the person
who's ill or the people involved.
And that's not easy.
But what we're doing is, in
essence, we're parenting them.
And that's also uncomfortable
because it's not something we're
potentially supposed to be doing.
We could be the sister and we're
parenting the parents and we're
parenting the siblings.
But this is where we're at in our
world these days.
This is the way, I mean, I don't
want to say this is the way it is
because it's very status quo.
But in order to move through to
what is more true about humanity,
this is where we are and we need
to champion it.
Is a highly sensitive person who's
also a caregiver or an intuitive
who's also a caregiver set up to
suffer more in that dynamic?
Well, I don't think of somebody
who's empathic as it being a
challenge or an inability.
The reality of it is when we're in
power with what is being an
empath, we're more savvy in
society and we flow through
things.
We feel somebody else's emotions
and we flow through it.
But when we aren't in our power in
it, we get stuck with it.
We're, oh, I'm going to feel that.
And that's where it's not
necessarily a benefit to us to
look at ourselves as empathic, but
more, how do I find the power
within that?
So I don't get stuck in feeling,
well, this sister's really upset
now and I don't know, you know,
it's those are old games instead
of what the true power of that is
and the notion of being empathic.
I do think that the other piece,
which is a little bit different to
me, is being a highly sensitive,
you are the protector for society,
whether you like that or not.
You can see patterns that others
can't see that protect humanity
from their own devices.
And as a result, you might feel
hyper responsible to call things
out.
Boy, this is the trail that this
person we're caring for is headed
down.
And the siblings might be
completely dense to that thinking
and so on.
And what I've found is you can
know that and that can be enough.
And when there's a moment in a
caregiving conference or an
opportunity with a nurse or the
doctor, sometimes we can be asking
ourselves inside, can the wisdom
come out from me to say the thing
that turns the tide right here?
And in my work, the quieter we
become just by nature, meaning
we're not saying as much, the more
self-reflective we are about that
wisdom, the more of a powerhouse
we become by nature.
And it's not such a hard one's
situation of being an empath or
being a highly sensitive.
It's just continuing to drive into
that power.
And HSPs, highly sensitives, tend
to be quite wise.
I mean, even as children, they're
a bit ahead of their time because
they can see patterns so adeptly.
And that can be troubling if you
can see the pattern of, you know,
this parent is going to fail or,
yeah.
So how does it change the
caregiver's anger or grief when
the family is now aware of the
established unfairness but is
choosing to keep the arrangement
exactly as it is?
Well, you have to make choices
about that.
And again, I think it's based on
who you, stepping back in
yourself, even if you are still
caring for the person, to say, who
can I and can I not be?
And taking that tension and
recognizing, oh, it is very easy
for me to be these parts, but I
can't ever work with that sibling
on that again.
But I can with this other sibling.
I can come and clean up the house
or whatever needs to be done.
And then as you can state those
things, it gives you more power
when they say, I mean, we talked
about this in the last episode,
when they say, well, but you used
to go and help with that sibling
and so on.
And they say, why can't you do it
anymore?
I can't say.
And then they say it again.
Well, what do you mean?
Because there's going to be
emotion.
They, it's, it's, I mean, don't
mean the offense to the person
who's ill, but it can be
burdensome to take care of
somebody who's ill.
You say it again.
I can, and say it calmly.
I can't say.
And what you're really saying
energetically is, I don't know.
And you don't know.
And they know that's true.
They can feel it.
And they will calm down.
They will tend not to get into it.
In some families, then, the
caregiver is found to be doing the
work, but also protecting
everybody else in the family from
feeling guilty about not doing the
work.
Why does the person carrying the
most often get assigned the job of
making sure that nobody else has
to feel bad for carrying so
little?
Well, that's part of this whole
swimming in the pool, is everybody
has to feel good, but there's a
lie going on.
And so it's toxic, right?
So they can step out of that.
And guilt is useless.
Worry is useless.
And worry energetically says to
others, I don't believe you can.
That's not good for somebody who's
ill to believe they can, that
they're not able.
And guilt is preemptively saying,
I don't think you can or I can.
And it's projected onto the person
even further.
So it's a deeper level of, we
can't.
Projected onto the caregiver or
the care recipient?
Well, whoever is feeling or
giving, you know, sending off the
guilt, right?
Like setting up the situation for
guilt.
It's really them saying, I don't
think I can, the person dishing
out the guilt, or you can.
So it's almost this double thing
of nothing is going to work here,
is really what's being said.
Energetically, and that's also not
positive and not good.
There's no value to it.
It's not helping anybody become
stronger.
What about if the caregiver is the
source of those guilty feelings
onto themselves?
Yeah, well, you need to stop.
And it's that behind-the-scenes
awareness of, I am letting go of
this guilt.
And it might be having to remind
yourself again and again and
again, I'm not going to be in that
guilty place.
Or give out the guilt.
And listening, like sometimes I
might say to a client in this
situation, record the conversation
you're having with these people
and listen to it later so that
they can recognize where is the
pattern of where they're saying
things.
Because guilt is really coming out
because something isn't working,
and they are insecure, and they're
pushing this out to kind of be in
control.
But it's controlling.
It's not truly control.
It's power.
Or, you know, they're not in their
power in it.
It's control.
I think that reviewing those
scenarios and those conversations
post hoc is probably a really
powerful tool.
But translating that further, how
does a caregiver know that they're
not just providing care anymore,
but they're managing the family's
guilt, denial, anger, and
discomfort too?
Like, if I'm a caregiver, what's
the moment of realization, and
what would I feel in that moment?
Well, I think it might be after
the fact.
You might feel immediately as
you're dishing out some guilt, you
feel some sense of power or, I'm
okay.
And then a second or two later,
you feel that gut, like, sick in
your gut.
You might leave and ruminate.
You can't let it go.
You might talk to people about it
outside of that environment more
than is needed.
So I think the symptoms could be
many, but I do think it's the
immediate sense of power, but it's
not.
It's control.
And then the gut punch of, like,
oh, I don't feel, something's not
right here.
And you're participating in that.
Combine that.
Yeah.
Yeah, combine that with care
recipient anger or sibling anger
and then the tendency to denial,
which might just brush everything
under the carpet.
But the caregiver, in that
instance, can find themselves kind
of like snakes and ladders back
down to the bottom of the board.
Right.
And the person dishing out the
guilt is honestly, in my eyes,
they're doing it to survive.
And that's no way to live.
You know when you're aligned with
what you're giving because you
feel good about it.
You don't say to your friends,
well, I'm taking care of this
person.
You know you are.
And you don't need to say
anything, you know.
You don't need to broadcast it.
That's right.
And get credit.
Well, there's a particular kind of
grief that sort of comes when you
realize the family may never
become fair.
No matter how clearly you explain
it to them and explain your
transformation, what does that
realization do to the caregiver
where they feel like they're just
talking to a wall?
Yeah, there's nothing that it is
going to help them with or do for
them.
It, in a way, it's showing them
you, I mean, this is hard, but you
don't belong here.
It's not a working environment.
And you might need to make choices
around, I can help in these ways,
when nobody's around.
You know, that you might help in
ways where you are outside of it,
you stay on the periphery and
support from a different angle.
Or that you can't support, but
that's a messy piece.
Well, it does fragment the
support, but it also allows you to
perhaps participate in things that
won't get you fired up and won't
get you distressed, but still a
contribution all the same.
Exactly.
So how does someone then stop
arguing with reality and start
making choices from that awareness
of what the family actually is and
not what they just keep hoping
them to become?
Right, well, it's expectation, but
you're never going to get them to
become who you want them to become
by force.
If you let go in a myriad of ways,
you know, they can maybe shift and
come along with you.
But oftentimes it's accepting that
there is a lie there.
There is some mistruth or some
level of system going on that is
not a functional human way of
being and that that is harming
you.
And you don't need, again, the
person who just knows that and
takes that away with wisdom and
says,
OK, I'm OK if X, Y, Z and makes
peace with that is going to have
an easier time than somebody who
resists and says,
come on, you have to be how I need
you to be.
Really what that person needs is a
place to belong where it makes
sense.
And that might not be with these
people.
But it's not saying you can't be
with those people.
It's just where you truly belong,
you might have to find outside of
your natural family or your group,
you know,
of people that are caring for this
individual.
So then in many families, the
person who stays and follows
through,
and not those that were talking
about dysfunctional families with
different levels of dysfunction,
but the person who stays and
follows through becomes the
default caregiver.
How does one person's reliability
turn into everybody else's
permission
for them to essentially disappear
into caregiving?
Well, that's exactly what the
people want.
And so they did their work and
pushed in that system.
And now here we are.
You're doing all the work.
So, and they might, we've talked
about this, they might be doing,
getting credit for it.
Oh, look at what I did.
I showed up with flowers, you
know.
But that's exactly what you want
to mitigate is in going behind the
scenes,
in the quiet moments when you're
in the bathroom for five minutes
by yourself,
recognizing what does and doesn't
work for you.
And then setting that in, you
know, as the tone of, you're going
to have to pick these other pieces
up.
And that's difficult, but it is
the antidote.
That, or maybe a wealthy sibling,
and they can pay for care to cover
that.
I mean, it could be any way.
It doesn't have to be the
expectation that they do it or
they do it a certain way.
It's such a dynamic realization
and a dynamic path to walk with a
lot of introspection that has to
come along the way.
If ever there was a place for
journaling as a caregiver is
trying to renegotiate their place
in the dysfunctional family
dynamic,
I think that would be like the
logbook that allows you to look
back and just,
okay, this is my trajectory.
This is where I'm headed.
This is what I'm thinking about
today.
Right.
So there's a lot that needs to be
captured.
And recollection, I think, of that
process is so huge.
Well, and Mark, I like that.
Because I hear sometimes in some
therapies that are offered in
psychology that they are things
that are,
oh, well, just distract yourself
over here.
That truly is what they're asking
the person to do.
And what I like about what you're
saying is it's like recording the
conversation,
but in a way that you can look
back at the snapshots of
information and say,
oh, there is the pattern.
And what's important about it,
too, is when you're caregiving,
it's intense.
And so you might not be able to
process everything going on.
But if you look back a year later
after it's quiet, the person is
hopefully healed and well,
that then you can start to sort
out, boy, that's what was going
on.
And this sister is worth me going
the distance and seeing if they go
to therapy with me.
This one isn't, you know, I mean,
it might be those types of
choices.
But absolutely.
And I do think I want to stress
that that can cause more stress
for a caregiver because it's
something else to do.
So in a way, I would ask them if
they were going to do something
like that to relate to it as a
revolving situation,
not an everyday have to do five
minutes, have to.
There's no expectation, but more
when you are feeling that moment
that you guilted and you recognize
it because the gut then gets,
ouch, this isn't working, I did
something that wasn't, you know,
right for me.
That you think, boy, later today,
I'm going to, you know, do a
little bit of journaling on that.
And you make it fluid so it works
with your life and you're not
adding more and forcing it.
I think that's one of the biggest
problems these days, which leads
to that scenario of like,
I don't feel any better yet.
I'm doing absolutely everything
that the checklists tell me to do.
Right.
But that's part of the old system.
That's the problem that we're
swimming in is you do, do, do.
Up level, do this better, you
know, be more and more and more.
And I know for people like
mothers, even that level of
caregiving, it's a lot.
Or a stay-at-home parent, I'll say
it that way.
The more, you know, focused parent
with children, it's a lot.
Yeah, to do something more.
And this idea of self-care, like
we have to care for ourselves.
We shouldn't have to even say
that.
It should be natural.
We shouldn't have to call out.
I have to go and have self-care.
It should just be, I went to have
coffee in the city with my friend
or I went on a long walk.
That's it.
But we call out.
That's how far away from ourselves
we are that we have to call it out
and label it.
And that to me is not healthy.
I really like how you refer it
that way.
We were back to our knowing and
our self-intuition.
We wouldn't have to call it
self-care.
No.
Wow.
That's really cool.
You know, Amy, a lot of caregivers
say, I am not the only child.
I am just the only one treating
our parents' decline, safety, and
care needs as real.
So why do siblings raised in the
same family create such different
stories about what they owe to the
parent and to the sibling carrying
the load?
Well, I'm going to say from my own
experience maybe this first is I
have found children that in this
scenario with a parent, the
children that the parent was the
hardest on, those children either
rebel or they're the nicest to the
parent.
And so those children that were
nicest to the parent tend to be
the ones that are the caregivers
because they have so much empathy.
I mean, I think of one of my
siblings as, I always think of her
as a golden retriever.
You could, this is bad, but she
was never kicked, but you could
kick her and she'd lie down and be
like, rub my belly out here.
You know, this very much lay down
and die for others because of the
fear of abandonment.
And I think that there's the
problem is if she's aware of that
fear of abandonment, she can
recognize and really feels the
depth of that and recognize she
can get that need met someplace
else.
She might come through.
So I'm saying this to point out,
you may be caring for somebody who
wasn't kind to you.
And you may be doing it because
you have a lot of empathy, you
have the ability, but there's also
this moment where you need to
recognize, did that person
originally do that to you?
Because they never had the
consequences that were necessary.
They were sheltered from those
consequences.
And that's what got them treating
you this way in the first place.
And do you now need to, even
though it's especially hard with
somebody who's aging, let them
have some consequences so that
they start to respect and feel the
measure of what is actually being
served to them.
Instead of, I mean, some people
can be very condescending and
mean, and you're giving a lot, and
they don't even begin to
recognize.
And it's not that we need
validation.
It's more that we need the good
tension of the person who is ill
to help make decisions, to be
invested in their own care and in
their own health journey.
That it can't just be us saying,
you need to take this medicine.
Oh, you can't eat that.
Oh, you can't, right?
Yeah.
If we're in touch with our own
knowing and our own authentic
self, shouldn't we be protected
from feelings of abandonment?
Potentially.
Yeah, because you're not in a
system where you're looking for
outside validation, where you're
looking, you know you belong to
you, and then others treat you
that you belong.
Yeah, and that's a crisis in our
world.
I mean, so we can't, like I'm
telling your listeners, don't feel
bad.
That's at epic crisis levels of
people feeling misunderstood is a
lot of where that comes from.
Yeah, you referred to that in your
book, and it was a compelling
argument when I read it and made
me reflect on my parenting journey
as well.
You know, are siblings really
fighting about their parents'
care, or are they fighting to
protect the vision of the family's
story that lets them live with
their choices?
You just kind of summed it up
right there.
Yep, and that a lot of families
want to look good.
So it's, if we look good, we're
okay.
If we sound good, we're okay.
And they're living in that, and
that's where it's a lie.
We can be imperfect and be the
most beautiful in that
positioning, but if we're not
willing to see that, if we're not
willing to let the sibling break
down and cry, who needs to cry?
And we say, why are you doing
that?
Or whatever that is happening, the
behavior that we push away or say
that's not okay because we have
expectations that aren't
realistic, we don't know what that
person needs.
That becomes the problem.
We're trying to get them to uphold
something that they aren't.
It's interesting how often you
sort of hear in the face of family
collapse, outside voices saying,
oh, but they were the perfect
family.
Exactly.
And they tend to be the ones that,
they looked good, but inside,
behind the closed doors, there's a
lot of, I think, emotional and
mental issue going on.
You know, communication.
You know, one of the hardest
things that caregivers describe is
that the people doing the least
often have the strongest opinions.
And so what happens inside the
caregiver when family members who
barely show up criticize their
every decision as a caregiver?
Well, they might acquiesce because
they might be so afraid of that
abandonment, and that's how
they've been conditioned, and
they're stuck in that.
Even abandonment from a sibling?
Well, and the idea of being cast
out.
Like, if I buck the authority
here, if I say this isn't true, or
that's not right, or that can be,
well, you're wrong, and then all
of a sudden we're isolated.
Like, some families have one
person that always has to be on
the outs, or, you know, these
dynamics, right?
So there can be a problem within
that very expression of, if I do
anything, there's going to be
negative pushback, or there's
going to be a worse situation than
just acquiescing.
And so they hold that position of
the dynamic instead of getting
things to straighten out and be
imperfect and clear.
I imagine within dysfunctional
family systems, it sometimes
happens that one sibling actually
carries the voice of the whole
family, hence the threat of
abandonment, if it's one voice
you're up against.
Right, and it can be.
I think sometimes there's a child
in the family who will push at the
parents a little more in a, I'm
the parent.
You know, you can have that
dynamic where that's ugly for
other siblings, for sure.
Is there a way a caregiver can
actually stop processing the
criticism from people who aren't
showing up?
And stop treating it as the same,
or with the same weight as the
responsibility to the actual care
for the recipient?
Yes, in letting it roll off your
back and learning the power of how
that works for you.
I mean, that's where the
journaling comes in, or just
simply, how do I let that roll off
my back?
And it might all of a sudden
elicit incredible tears, because
you never let yourself have that,
you know, or you might emote.
But if we can let it roll off, and
in essence, what you're talking
about is a forgiveness process,
which is,
I'm sorry for any hurt I've
caused, I forgive you for any hurt
you've caused, and now here's how
I want to see things.
And in this case, we might say, I
want to experience a sense of
freedom and expansiveness with
this situation.
Or I want to enjoy the time that I
have with my, the person who's
ill.
So we set the tone for something
different, and then as we come
around to that, which might not be
a one-time shot,
we can move into where that, that
seats, we feel better about it.
I mean, if we could learn this as
children, we'd have no problem
doing it as adults.
But this is how to twist it up and
challenging that, that system has
become in your dynamic.
The harder it is to let that go.
Yeah.
Now, if ever there was a call for
self-compassion, it has to be
really evident for the caregiver
embarking on this journey to get
back in touch with their knowing
of their authentic self.
It's not a static one-moment
event, it's a process.
And it's going to, as you clearly
point out, have lots of bumps
along the way.
But if you can't show yourself
self-compassion during that
process, it could be exponentially
more painful.
That's right.
And the other piece to that is, if
you can't show yourself
self-compassion, it's okay to even
say,
I can't do that.
That frees you up more than you
know.
So we can go easy into that
journey.
And the other caveat to what
you're saying, Mark, is this is
something that's been around
a long time, this problem, the
model.
And it's built up over centuries.
And so now we're finally saying,
okay, we're not going to be doing
that anymore.
And so we also can think of
ourselves as doing something epic.
And that maybe if we look at it
that way, we can recognize it
doesn't have to be done quickly
or perfectly or we just take our
time and move through these
situations and it will be good
and it will be hard and it will
be, but we're going to keep
feeling until we've expressed
through
and say, oh, I'm feeling strong
enough to say the thing I need to
say this time.
And I don't need to use guilt to
lash back at the painful things
they're saying to me,
the criticisms, the judgments.
It's powerful.
Well, I think that really
resonates because I think there's
a temptation to sort of say if
you don't have self-compassion,
you're toast in this process, like
you'll never get through.
But what I'm hearing from you is
that it's okay to struggle with
self-compassion.
It's actually maybe more
authentic.
More inhuman than anything.
Especially in a world that drives
to produce and to look shiny and,
you know,
have such high expectations of
what humans should be.
Yeah.
Caregivers often say they feel
trapped not only by the care, but
who they become while doing it.
We've talked about resentment,
reactivity, and feeling of
numbness and constantly on edge.
What are the signs that caregiving
is not just hard, but is actually
actively crushing the person doing
it?
The emotions of feeling like I
feel sad and I don't even know
why.
Or I feel this heavy burden and I
can't explain it.
Or I feel stuck.
And they might point to a place in
their body, but they don't know
why.
I think, and the other side of it,
why not be messy when somebody's
ill and use it as a gift to
yourself to move out of that
system?
It's a hard time because it's a
stressful time and there can be
post-traumatic stress disorder and
all of these things going on.
But it also is an opportunity to
say, enough.
This isn't who I am and it's never
who I've been.
And it won't help me to be
somebody I'm not.
And even claiming, I don't like
that.
But I must move forward and break
out of, I liked how you put your
hands together.
Break out of that shell.
It's pretty tough to do if you're
a solo caregiver and you're
dealing with a dysfunction within
the family to find that space and
that energy to choose self in the
face of an ailing parent or an
ailing care recipient.
Not an easy task.
I think our listeners struggle
with that.
The comments I see popping up on
social media are just that.
How do you do it alone?
Not just alone, but alone with
yourself if you're not in touch
with yourself.
Well, it's, I mean, it's not easy.
And I think being a solo caregiver
is a little bit, it has a little
different caveat.
You get all the say, but you need
to look outside of yourself for
other opportunities.
We talked about this in the last
podcast.
You know, are there groups that
can come out?
Are there ways that you can get
help?
Can you be really resourceful or
ask somebody to be resourceful on
your behalf?
Maybe somebody else that's cared
for somebody that isn't caring for
somebody right now.
What do you know of?
Can you help me get some things
set up?
But there is that recognition of
you are calling the shots.
And while that's stressful because
you're making decisions for
another person in some time, you
know, at some points, there also
can be the freedom of not having
the burden of others judging you
and putting this pressure on you.
So then can you ask yourself, how
do I take the pressure off of
myself?
Can I have that neighbor bring
meals?
Or can, what is it?
You know, are there, be really
resourceful.
People do want to help us.
I mean, I travel all the time.
And I swear, 99% of people want to
help you figure it out, get to
where you're going, answer the
question.
And you might be surprised.
They might need that, too.
That sounds funny.
But even going to a church you're
not a part of and saying, I need
help.
Can you just, you know, what
resources are here that can help,
you know, other people that can
come and sit with the parent or,
you know.
Don't hold back and ask for help
to get that help if you need.
But reach beyond yourself.
Don't think it has to solely be
you because that can be incredibly
heavy.
Incredibly heavy.
Oh, I think, and we feel that
sentiment in the comments that we
receive.
So I'm going to push you a little
bit harder.
How can someone actually tell the
difference between normal
caregiving exhaustion and the
deeper warning signs that they're
truly disappearing inside that
role?
Well, I think it's when you have a
day that you don't have things
that you need to care for, the
person.
And you take an hour and a half
time to just watch a dumb movie or
be, you know, and you feel filled
up after that.
But it's when that doesn't fill
you up and you don't want to get
off the couch and you don't, like,
that's compounding.
You know, when you can have some
free time or take a walk or do
something, you know, if your body
is still tired, if your mind is
still, I can't.
It's compounding and it's too much
for who you are.
And the other piece of it to keep
in mind is, that might not be that
much for that person.
And you can't judge that that's
too much for you.
You're not the same person.
And we don't like that.
We're taught to be the same.
And so you have to let go and
realize that's just not how it
works for me.
I know it's not fair because it's
not like, here's the solve, but we
have to go easy.
I really do.
When caregiving pulls someone back
into those childhood patterns,
they may start appeasing,
explaining, freezing, trying to
earn approval from a parent who's
now dependent on them.
Why does an adult caregiver become
the child again so quickly and
easily?
Because they're posturing in the
system and they're trying to make
that other person feel like
they're in charge or make that
other person feel like whatever
the thing is that person needed
when they were young.
But we can quickly recognize, I'm
not going to be that person.
I can't be that person because I,
you know, maybe the child or the
caregiver never, I mean, clearly
they never should have been
playing a role.
They should have been being
themselves.
And I will say this, based on what
you asked, Mark, the quieter the
caregiver is, the more the person
dishing out whatever it is,
whether it's a sibling, the
judgment, the criticism, or the
person who's ailing gives that to
the caregiver.
The more quiet they are in a
powerful way of, they're not, ugh,
with their shoulders down, but
standing tall and being there for
it, that person will hear
themselves over time.
That sounds crazy, but if you're
not going to take it, it has
nowhere to go.
And you're not saying, I'm not
going to take that.
You simply, that is our knowing.
You stand powerfully and just let
them say it all.
There's nowhere it can go.
They see it.
They feel it.
And they have to reconcile or own
their own thing, their own words.
How is it then that someone may
have, over the years, stepped away
from the dysfunctional family
dynamic, embraced their own
knowing, yet, when it comes to an
ailing parent and caregiving, they
get pulled back so easily?
Because of old patterns.
I mean, it just is so easy.
That's what I said.
It's amazing how powerful they
are, though.
And it can resurge, especially
when there's a moment of weakness.
I think a lot of families that
have dysfunction tend to do well
in chaos, and that's how the
caregiver can do well for a while.
But then there's a point in which
that burden has become so heavy,
they're exhausted at a deeper
level.
And that's where you know you
can't just rest for a while and
take time to do whatever.
You might also find you guilt
yourself for taking that time.
Oh, I shouldn't have gone on that
walk.
Now I've got two phone calls or
two voicemails or, you know, from
this person, whatever.
But maybe you need to give those
voicemails another half an hour or
tell the nurse, I'll come and sign
that thing on Thursday and it's
Sunday.
Like, you know, we need to realize
if they push, we can say, I'm
human.
I can't be.
I'm not a robot.
I think I know the answer to this
question, but we'll see if I'm
right or not.
How can the caregiver stop
reacting like the old child
version of themselves?
Well, they can look at how they
are powerful in other areas of
their world and then simply apply
that.
How do I speak to this person?
Adapted in.
What's that?
Adapted.
Yes.
Their strength from elsewhere into
that scenario.
And that other piece of staying
quiet, because if you listen and
you're in that powerful stance and
I'm letting this kind of roll off
of me and I don't like it, but I'm
doing that.
You will start to hear the
repetition of what's going on.
And, you know, I've been traveling
a lot and I've been talking about
North Americans.
This is strange.
And saying, you know, we're quite
a negative bunch.
And then one of my friends who she
immigrated from another country
and she lives in England now and
has lived here 40 years.
And some of her family went to
North America and she said, Amy,
they complain an awful lot.
And they had the same formative
years.
But I think culturally we can get
into that.
And we don't have to.
We can change the tide.
We can let it roll off.
We can hold that powerful.
I'm not doing this inside of us
and let it be reflected back in
the mirror to them of, you know,
that's not going to fly.
And honestly, that's what the ill
person is looking for.
Even though it doesn't seem like
it, they're in a hard situation.
And I think this is what makes it
incredibly hard is they're hurting
and you feel sorry for them.
And you've got to stop feeling
sorry for them.
And help support how they can feel
good about themselves and how they
can believe in themselves.
And that's your only job in truth.
And that's really hard.
Because it's not culturally in our
entire world something we really
set out to do.
We set out to tell, oh, if this,
then that.
We warned.
We're preemptively trying to help
people not feel emotional.
And that's dumb.
Let them feel emotional and show
up and hold their hand.
Look in their eyes.
Let them feel it and they'll be
over it.
But we don't do that.
And that's probably why the
caregiver feels so awful, too, is
they're never let off the hook for
their emotions.
They're just stuck in them.
Even if you're practicing trying
to reflect it back, there's still
that residue inside of you, which
you can stay trapped in and you
can hold on to.
But I think it's important to
acknowledge that those residues
have half-lives to them and a
certain decay factor.
And if we let them decay and we
let them pass through us, they
actually can.
Be neutral.
We remember the memory, but it's
not the charge.
And I think, too, I'm seeing this
more than I ever have, is a lot of
people will say, oh, that's victim
mentality.
And I say, you know what?
There actually are people who are
victims.
And then they, oh.
But we don't give that any
credence of we just roll, like,
steamroll over people who have
actually been victims.
And as a child, you likely were a
victim of things if you're in a
dysfunctional family, like,
legitimately.
And people have just told you,
just pull yourself up by your
bootstraps, you know, suck it up.
These messages that are status quo
instead of actually meeting you
and, like I said, holding your
hand, maybe making eye contact,
just acknowledging you have pain.
And I've had that happen recently
in my life where somebody saw
shock and pain in their eyes for
something I had shared, and I
didn't mean to share it.
And I've never had that, and I
thought, this is the most powerful
thing that's ever happened for me,
is somebody can acknowledge my
pain without uttering a word, but
I see it in their eyes.
It was incredible.
And that's knowing.
That's knowing at its deepest
level.
It changed a lot for me in a
moment, a second.
I can imagine there are many
caregivers who would embrace a
moment like that.
Oh, absolutely.
Folks, we're going to take a brief
break.
And in the tradition of the
podcast, tap into our illustrious
production team, who always have a
couple of good questions ready for
our guests.
Hi, Amy.
Hey.
One of the things that have come
up in the first part of the show
have been around the lie.
Like, you know, carrying the lie
or living with something or trying
to go along with something that
you know and you're holding inside
isn't right.
And then you start to feel
terrible about it because you're
just sort of going along with
that.
And that happens a lot in these
kind of systems, these
dysfunctional family systems.
And I think once you see that,
though, once you see the lie for
the first time and recognize it
for what it is, you can never sort
of see your family and the
dysfunction in a similar way.
I mean, for me, maybe that was my
wake-up point.
I remember once, and I think I was
only about 15 or 16, but we were
having this big family meeting.
And it was with my extended family
and my aunts and uncles, my
grandparents were there.
And something had happened that
was so clearly unfair.
And yet the sort of the regime at
the time, like the family regime,
the family system, was just going
to sort of plow forward and not
recognize it.
And I looked around, I remember
looking around the table and
seeing everyone's expression and
seeing people who were just going
to sort of accept it without a
second thought.
And then I saw a bunch of people
sort of processing and feeling
that I could see that they felt it
or recognize that it wasn't right
as well.
And yet they just stayed silent
and I could see them almost
pushing it down in their
expressions.
And then the whole system just
sort of lurched forward from there
and it wasn't dealt with.
And that was my moment of
recognizing, like, this family
structure isn't exactly what it
pretends to be.
But it's also like waking up from
that for the first time can be, I
don't know, it's almost shocking
or something, like to realize
there's a separate reality from
the one you've been sort of
programmed into.
Could you speak to that a little
bit and how sort of awakening from
the big lie starts to allow you to
sort of see who you are within the
system and whether or not you can
sort of stay or you have to step
out?
Yeah, that's a big question.
I do think it does leave us in
shock when we realize and we
really feel it inside of our body
so it's visceral.
It's not just this mental
realization.
We can tend to shove that away
like most of the people it sounds
like did at that event.
But the, you know, the piece of it
that I think is important to focus
on is you do know and now you have
the power of choice.
And in a way, the choice is our
only manual transmission movement
into something different.
So we can recognize, like, if we
were, say, you're a child when
that happened, you're 10.
And now you're 23 and you meet a
partner that you think, boy, this
person is great and you see a red
flag.
Because you know that system in
your family, you acknowledge the
red flag and you clear it with
them.
You call it out and you say, hey,
this doesn't work for me.
This is X, Y, Z.
And see where they come in.
And that helps you move into a
future that stops the lie in your
life.
But I think I had a very different
situation.
And this is what led me into my
work is when I was seven or eight,
I had family situations like that
where I could call out the person
who said the thing in a few words.
And they would stop for the rest
of the day.
And what I realized is what's
necessary there to change the tide
is actually parenting.
So we, as a child or the adult or
anyone in the room, and I believe
what it takes is the person so
strong in the belief that not this
is wrong, they're not resisting
against the person, but believing
this can be changed.
This can be different without
saying it or any drama or any of
the pieces of guilt.
So you're not reinforcing that
system that was already broken.
Instead, you're meeting it at a
different angle and coming in and
saying, blop, blop, blop.
And the person changes because
they, I mean, to me, I see it as
the mama cat biting the baby cat
on the neck and saying no.
And that there's a power to it.
So if you can, you can change it
in the system right there.
But I don't think that's very
common.
I do think as you grow, you
recognize it in relationships and
look back and say, boy, that is a
little bit of a gut clench for me.
There is a red flag there.
You know, I think the first person
I was married to, there were some
red flags there and I did not
address them.
That was my old patterning.
Right.
I just kept trying to see the good
and the positive.
And that's where in our world,
people say, be positive.
And I think, great, it's not wrong
to be positive, but there's also
this necessary piece of being
honest.
And sometimes we don't feel
positive.
So being positive all the time is
kind of overriding what's human.
You know, we want to be honest and
be able to clearly state, hey, I
see this thing and that's not
going to work for me.
I think maybe the takeaway from
that is instead of going on a
crusade to necessarily change the
dynamic within the family, just to
step back and understand that if
you are unwilling to say something
when you feel like something is
wrong, the chances are later in
your life, you're going to accept
all kinds of things.
That you shouldn't and then are
going to cause pain and discomfort
because you don't have the ability
to actually speak out when you
feel something is wrong or unfair.
And that you learn that early and
then you can't sort of apply it
later on because you learn just to
be silent.
I don't know that that's what I
sort of pulled out of what you
said there.
And I really got the example of
when you said the red flag later
in the relationship, you're able
to sort of identify it and not
only just identify it, but
actually say something and
advocate for yourself because
you're not, you know,
you didn't choose to remain silent
and sort of under the thumb of the
family system, you've sort of
learned and have the ability to
now advocate for yourself and make
different choices.
So that was great.
Thank you.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Thank you.
It sounds to me like it's a
question of when are you prepared
or willing to deal with processing
the pain?
Whether you're 30 in that extended
family meeting and the pain that
comes from speaking up and
potentially the pain and trauma
from a self-rebirth in that family
dynamic versus the lingering pain
that lasts for three, four, five
more decades after age 30 as
you've remained silent.
Right.
And some people, I mean, there's a
writer who he's no longer living,
but he is quoted in saying it's
Richard Peck, which not to be
confused with Scott M.
Peck, but he wrote for young
adults and he is quoted in saying
anger is, no, what is it?
Humor is anger that's gone to
finishing school.
And I think that, so in a family
dynamic like that, there might be
somebody who's funny and they say
something to neutralize the system
going on there, but they don't
relieve the emotion.
They relieve it temporarily to be
like, we all see it and I'm going
to make the room feel comfortable,
but that's just one step that
doesn't change what's really
happening there in a greater way.
But yeah, I mean, it is possible.
You witness those individuals,
they're working the room hard.
They are.
Well, and they tend to meet
things.
It can be exhausting.
Yeah, it can be, but they tend to
meet things that way with humor,
yeah.
So Amy, a lot of people assume
that once a caregiver sees the
dysfunctional family pattern
clearly or does enough work on
themselves, that the pattern will
start to lose its power and
change.
But therapy changes the caregiver.
It doesn't change the family.
So why do these dysfunctional
family patterns so often protect
themselves through the people who
benefit from keeping things
exactly the way they are?
Well, because it's comfort is what
they know as home inside, but it's
not their true home.
So they're never settled.
They're never, they might be
anxious.
They might project anxiety.
They might, but that's the
difference in my work is it
actually changes the family
dynamic because there's, the
person changes in a way where
they're unflappable.
And I say to some people that need
to step away from their family as
a result of family dynamics, you
might not always have to, but
you'll know if you don't anymore
because you'll know that you're
strong enough to be there and be
unflappable.
You won't be triggered by the
things that used to trigger you,
but we are in a time when we're
expanding and changing massively
and that's going to, I think, it
will collapse narcissism.
I mean, we will change it so much,
so many of us, that that won't
really be able to exist, the
dysfunction, because the lie won't
be untold.
It won't be called out either, but
it will be seen because it will be
unavoidable.
So I think that's, I think that's
an amazing point that you just
made, which I think our listeners
really need to focus on is that
the work on ourselves and the
therapy we may go to, go through
is the preparation to then reenter
the scene as unflappable.
But just doing the work doesn't
make you unflappable, nor does it
change the family.
Right, right.
It takes, I think, a greater
audacity inside to say, this isn't
my pattern.
I respect these people and, I
mean, in my case, I say they're my
greatest teachers, but it doesn't
mean that I can always be there or
ever be there or whatever.
And we make peace with that and
that's powerful and beautiful.
And it's not my job to know if
they like it or not.
And that's tricky too, right?
They don't get a say in it.
Yeah.
It requires a level of
self-confidence that a lot of
people may not be prepared to
display.
But maybe some of that upfront
work and learning about oneself
and going to therapy can actually
prepare someone for that next
phase.
Right.
How can a caregiver, sorry, go
ahead.
Well, I was just going to say,
Mark, we also have to adopt the
notion that there is a place where
all of us belong.
We really inherently belong as we
are and the allowance of letting
that be found is part of the
journey and it might not be with
those people.
And I know you're caregiving,
you're responsible, you're these
things right now.
But when we know that in our
minds, sometimes that can help us
have the tether to, I will find
that as I'm doing this healing
process, I will find that and know
that.
Does that exercise maybe actually
prepare someone for when the
caregiving journey is over so that
they can reintegrate into life as
truly themselves and truly where
they belong?
Yes, versus carrying the guilt and
the shame of what they couldn't be
while they were a caregiver
because, hey, everybody, that's
going to happen.
You're not going to be able to be
everything.
You just won't.
You won't do everything right when
you're caregiving.
It's impossible.
And so, yep, having that mind set,
I think really does help.
So how can a caregiver recognize
when a sibling, relative or family
member is not just disagreeing
about care?
But protecting their own power,
control and influence and safe
place in the family.
Because it feels slimy.
It feels deeper and older than
what is just on the surface right
there in the dialogue.
And you know it.
You can feel it in your body, I am
certain.
You might step away and think,
that is what?
You're going to know.
And it's subtle.
And we think, well, like we've
said here, we'll just override it.
And that's part of what was
conditioned in you and is the
trauma of the disorder, is you
were told to override yourself
instead of no.
So trust that you do know and
recognize, you know, if they want
to call the shots, well, then let
them have that reign and then see
how they, how it works for them.
Or, you know, can you give them
something that shows who they can
and can't be in it?
You know, it displays their
functionality and their
non-functionality in the
situation.
It's a consequence.
You know, in a dysfunctional
family, then, who usually becomes
the person who protects the
pattern and enforces the rules or
punishes the person who tries to
step out of line?
And why might that person not be
the parent who actually needs
care, but someone else in the
family?
Well, they may have traits that
are highly narcissistic in
themselves, meaning in my work, it
would say they have a needs-based
problem that they shove so far
down that they're doing anything
in their power to thwart so that
they don't reveal that.
And they say, you're the anxious
one, when actually that person is
very anxious.
There are a lot of projections or
there's a lot of blaming or
gaslighting.
And I can't say who it is in the
family.
I do think that sometimes it can
be the sibling that is closest to
that parent, if it's a parent
that's ill or closest, like it
might be the oldest sibling who's
like, I have to be responsible
here and take, you know, and be in
charge and tell you what to do.
I think the dynamic can change.
I'm in a family where I'm
separated by so many years.
I'm a first again, so
psychologically I'm like a first
and a last child.
So I think on both parameters,
when you have dynamics like that,
it changes things, right?
So it's hard to say, this is the
definitive character who will be
the one upholding, this is how the
family works.
Might be this, the man, or, you
know, it's just hard to say.
The one brother.
You know, some family members, as
they witness this sort of
transformation in the caregiver,
may see enough to know that the
situation's wrong and history is
wrong, but still will not risk
losing approval, money,
inheritance, belonging, or a sense
of peace.
What does it do to a caregiver
when somebody briefly stands with
them and then backs away once the
price of standing by them becomes
real?
Well, it's hardship.
I mean, it's, I think it's that.
That's brutal.
Yeah, it's that whole position of
belonging and the need to belong.
And I am working around this idea,
a notion of, I think attachment
inherently makes us a victim.
I just, I'm in that camp right
now.
But connection is something that
is undeniable.
We can, with a love partner, we
can feel connected to them even
when they're distant.
Or a family member that we truly
have love for them and they have
love for us.
But with attachment, we're
constantly looking and seeking and
trying to know instead of know
inside of ourselves, right?
It's kind of the opposite.
So, yeah, I'm not sure.
I've kind of talked a little bit
of a circle.
I hope that that's answered your
question.
You carry on with more if it
hasn't quite, but.
No, it does.
And, you know, speaking of
circles, then, like, it's that
circle of loneliness because, you
know, how can a caregiver then
survive that loneliness of seeing
the dysfunctional family pattern
closely, especially when the
family actually circles the wagons
and treats the person naming the
truth as a threat?
Well, I'm going to go a step,
like, not to the family, but I'm
going to go to the outer layer.
So, say that the center is number
one.
And then the next layer of people
in our life, our friends and our
others, you know, cousins and
aunts and so on, is layer two.
And that layer two tends to not
have so much compassion for that
situation.
Like, well, everybody has to care
give.
Everybody has to go through this
at some point in their life.
And I think that sometimes when we
can't think beyond this immediate
family situation and we know that
the dysfunction is there, we can't
even think to a secondary group of
people who have our back, who are
saying, I see what's going on.
And so we're in this pivotal place
of, am I crazy?
Did this person that was just with
me on it now isn't?
You know, it feels divisive to us
and we feel even lonelier because
we do feel alone in it in the
sense that there isn't somebody
who, like I said earlier, can just
hold our hand and let us feel.
And that's safe and they don't
have to say anything.
They just allow us to let
ourselves off the hook for what
we're feeling.
So when we get into these dynamics
of family, I sometimes think the
caregiver can't see the total
scope because they're so in it in
the moment of what is actually
going on there that is
dysfunctional.
They might sense some of it or
they might see some of it, but in
the greater scheme, it's a lot.
It's a lot to take in.
And this is where I say your ally
to yourself is to, behind the
scenes, when you're on the
elevator leaving the care
facility, take a second and get in
there deep with yourself to just
feel inside and be with yourself
and challenge that structure of
why do I feel so, whatever it is,
guilty, shameful, what is that?
Because what I want you to tell
yourself is that is not real.
None of those things are actually
real.
They're old behaviors that are
just cycling around.
And if you can push back at that,
you'll start to break it down
where you become that strength.
But it takes that moment of not
just shoving it under the table or
riding over it.
So if I understand correctly, that
honest exercise with yourself and
maybe some of the answers you get
from it can then be tested in that
safer,
second layer or second circle.
You could.
You could.
I mean, and I think finding an
ally in that, you know, whether
it's a support group or somebody
who can meet you in it in a way
that can actually understand.
And when I talked about earlier,
this person, I could see in their
eyes something I had shared.
I could see what that experience
was for them.
They've never experienced that
themselves.
But that was incredibly powerful
because they can't actually
understand it for themselves, but
they understood me.
And that's what we're looking for
is somebody who can understand.
Because what did I say earlier?
The problem is stemming from being
misunderstood and the parenting
that came with that and the
responsibility and expectations
that came with it.
Instead of parents who raised us
as responsive and expectant in our
life.
Responsive to things and
expectant.
Be different then.
So many, yeah, you know, so often
you think of that next layer of
having to be hundreds of
individuals or hundreds of
entities,
but we can really whittle it down
to maybe three or four key
individuals or organizations or
relationships where that support
can be derived.
And it's not this Herculean number
that we need to have as an
entourage of support, but it may
really come down to some very key
nurtured relationships where those
entities or individuals will be
there for you and you'll have a
chance to reciprocate for them.
That's right.
People who get us.
And they might heal us in
unexpected ways and we heal them
in different unexpected ways.
It's kind of magic.
There's no, oh, I did that for you
and you did that for me.
It's just natural.
Yeah.
For many of our caregivers
listening today, they know that
tomorrow they're going to have to
wake up to another day of
caregiving.
And for the caregiver who can see
the dysfunctional family pattern
clearly, but still has to care
tomorrow.
What does it mean to have to keep
showing up for real needs without
surrendering their life to guilt,
manipulation, coercion and control
moving forward?
Yeah, I mean, you know, we could
say mindset, we could say all
these things, but I think that in
this specific thing that you're
asking, that is very difficult.
And I would say, try to recognize
if you're doing any addictive or
addictive patterns, like staying
up late watching movies because
you want time for yourself.
But during the day, how can you
use a different view of how that
day looks?
Like, yep, you probably have a
repetition of the person needs
medication.
They need this.
They need that at certain times of
the day.
But is there a moment?
And this is tough.
I get it.
You're so busy.
It seems insanely possible to
squeeze something in.
But can you take that cup of tea
or coffee that you like and sit
and look out the window for two
minutes to just get a moment to
get back with yourself?
Because in my work, I would say
the problem is, as a caregiver,
you're constantly being stretched
like a last-o person to not be
yourself.
You're giving a lot to somebody
else, their needs, and how do you
meet a little bit of that during
the day versus turning to
something that could look like a
different way of, I mean, I'm
going to use the word addiction,
but, you know, kind of want, like,
at the end of the day, the thing
that we do is how we feel about
ourselves.
Like, if we eat a bunch of
chocolate, it's quite telling.
Like, I used to smoke cigarettes
because I was looking for love.
And then the day that love came
in, I stopped smoking and I never
smoked again.
Like, it's very amazing why we do
these things.
But can you channel that into
something that lets you be with
you for a bit, not be the last
person of, oh, my gosh, I just sat
down with the tea and the person's
calling for me.
It's going to be two minutes, you
know, and I realize some of those
situations might be something
extraordinary has happened and we
have to go right now.
But trying to get that, and the
reason I say this is the more we
pattern to things like that, the
more we align with a way that
works for us instead of working
against us.
And often the mental burden of
what we're doing, and we can say
emotional and physical, can be so
lamented, like, oh, I can't do it
again, I can't, that that creates
this, like, you sat down with the
tea, and now the person you're
caring for all of a sudden had an
accident or needs, you know, it's
tripping us up.
We need to do the best we can to
stay in alignment of, this is
going to work out.
I'm going to have those two
minutes for sure.
Yeah.
It's tricky.
So then, yeah.
And it's hard.
It's hard not to relinquish what
those two minutes can be, you
know, as opposed to the win versus
the loss of those two minutes.
What kind of freedom is still
possible then, when getting free
may cost the caregiver the
approval, sense of belonging,
resources, or the family story
they spent their life trying to
survive?
Well, I think I'm going to answer
this one in a way you might not
expect, but we can also recognize,
like I said, recognizing the guilt
and shame and so on, recognizing
what we have done that day or what
we have done for this person.
Because you have accomplished
something, you're keeping possibly
somebody alive, that if they
didn't have this care, they
wouldn't be able to continue,
maybe in the way that they have.
They want to stay at home, or that
whatever has been made allowed,
you might feel hyper-responsible
for that, but the other thing is
you've made that possible.
And that's incredible.
Like, what an incredible thing to
give somebody.
So there's a beauty in it too, and
I think we have to look at that
beauty of life, and we can see how
messy it is when we're caregiving,
and that can be funny, and wild,
and absurd, and awful, and a whole
bunch of things.
But, you know, it also can be this
beautiful engagement with that
person in a different way.
I know, you know, I'm going to say
this quick, but my mom had a knee
replacement, and she's not an
athlete, I'm the athlete in the
family, and she finally called me
over, and she said,
I know that you will make me do my
exercises, so I'm calling on you
because you won't mind if it
hurts.
And that sounds awful, but she's
right, because I'm an athlete, and
I know how to push through, and
it's not that I don't care for
her, but I'd make her laugh when
it hurt.
I would help her through it in
another way, and it made this
beautiful, and I felt, what a
beautiful thing for her to call on
me, because she knows she has to
do it, and she won't.
And here she is asking for that
help, I thought, this is lovely.
So we can look to some of those
pieces as a lovely moment to
exchange.
Yeah.
You know, before we end today, one
thing that just sort of came to
mind as I was reflecting on what
you were saying is that
for the caregiver wondering if
they are enough, or for the
caregiver who's trying to see
whether everything they've done
today was actually an amazing
contribution to someone else.
If you're starting to see that, I
think that's the first sign that
your authentic self and that deep
personal knowing is coming to the
forefront.
It is.
And it's, that is hard one in a
world society, the way it's
shaped.
So if you're doing any of that,
huzzah, I mean like amazing,
amazing and kudos.
So the path is tough, but it's
achievable, and don't give up.
It is, and if you're doing it
among this level of intensity,
you're a champion.
So if you can do it here, you
quite honestly can apply it
anywhere else in your life, and
that's powerful.
Thanks for reminding us that
caregivers are champions.
Amy, we've loved having you here,
back as a guest.
You've really made a big
difference in this conversation,
and to our listeners.
That wraps up today's episode.
We'll see you again next week at
the Caregiver's Podcast.
Until we meet again.
Thanks, Mark.
I think one of the best.
I think one of the clearest
reminders from this episode is
that seeing the family pattern is
not the same as being free from
it.
A caregiver can do the work and
become more aware.
They can name what is unfair,
understand how they were pulled
into it, and recognize the
pressure that's kept them
compliant.
But that's not mean the family
will change with them.
In some families, the pattern
pushes back.
It may show up as guilt, silence,
punishment, manipulation, threats
around money or withdrawal of
help.
The painful realization that the
person telling the truth is now
being treated as the problem.
And that could be incredibly
lonely.
And for many caregivers, it
creates a painful choice.
They may still need to care.
A parent may still have real
needs.
The situation may not allow for a
clean break.
But real care need not require a
caregiver to surrender their
dignity, their health, or their
life to a family dynamic that's
been hurting them for years.
For anyone listening who can now
see the pattern clearly, I hope
this conversation helps you feel
less alone.
I hope it reminds you that the
family does not have to agree
before your reality is valid.
And I hope it gives you permission
to protect your own life, even if
other people preferred you and you
were easier to control.
You may still have to care
tomorrow, but you don't have to
disappear in order to do it.
Before you go, please subscribe or
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Thanks for listening, and we'll
see you next time.
Before we wrap up, I wanted to
remind you of something important.
The conversations you hear on this
podcast are here to inform, to
support, to spark reflection.
We're not a substitute for
professional medical advice, care,
therapy, or crisis services.
Listening to this podcast does not
create a doctor-patient or
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between us.
If you're facing a medical
concern, health challenge, a
mental health challenge, or a
caregiving situation that needs
guidance,
I encourage you to reach out to a
qualified professional who knows
your story.
If you're ever in crisis, please
don't wait.
Call your local emergency number
or recognize crisis hotline right
away.
You deserve real-time help and
support.
The views you hear on this show,
whether from me or my guests, are
our own.
They don't necessarily reflect any
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part of, or have worked with, or
been part of in the past.
This podcast is an independent
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It's not tied to any hospital,
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Thank you for being here, for
listening, and most of all, for
taking the time to care for
yourself while you continue to
care for others.
I look forward to hearing from
you.