Redemption Happens with Accountability | Jake Lapp, ECFA

Show Notes

Being accountable to someone doesn't mean you'll achieve perfection. Accountability, particularly in a Christian organization, looks like a relationship built on trust with "course correcting" conversations happening regularly.

Sit down with Michael Martin and Jake Lapp as they dig in to what accountability looks like with ECFA accredited members.

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Disclosure: This video is provided as general educational information and with the understanding that ECFA is not rendering legal, accounting, or other professional advice or service. Professional advice on specific issues should be sought from an accountant, lawyer, or other professional. Opinions presented are those of the speakers and not necessarily the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.

Video Topics: leadership, church, Christian, Christ, God, bible, scripture, church plant, missions, ministry, mission, congregation, worship, money, giving, tithing, tithe, give, finances, financial accountability, governance, stewardship, budgeting, budget, podcast, nonprofits, nonprofit, audit, transparency, trust

Creators and Guests

Host

Michael Martin

President & CEO of ECFA

What is Behind the Seal?

ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?

Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.

00;00;01;17 - 00;00;26;08
Jake Lapp
If we were perfect, we wouldn't need accountability. That's my view. Accountability is not perfection. I think it's important for everyone to hear that we do look at every single financial statement, and every single renewal, and we take our jobs very seriously. Well, I think one of the big trends we're seeing is more desire for accountability. We're in a very watching world. We're being asked more and more from donors how funds are being used or what's going on.

00;00;26;08 - 00;00;28;02
Michael Martin
People are really paying attention.

00;00;28;02 - 00;00;51;04
Jake Lapp
They are you know, when I think of accountability in my own personal life, it's always about course correction. And you need someone to step along side and have that hard conversation or of course, in a loving way. It can't be just a hard conversation. It has to be a loving conversation as well. It's really what we've done is it's almost restore some trust between the donor and the ministry at that point. And it's really fun to see when that happens.

00;00;56;25 - 00;01;18;07
Michael Martin
Well, Jake, welcome to the ECFA podcast. Yeah, thanks, Michael. Great to be here. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time. And this is what we call Behind the seal, where we go behind the scenes with those that we have the opportunity to visit with here on the podcast. I'm especially excited to get to talk with you because you're here on the ECFA team, so we're really going "Behind the Seal," if you will.

00;01;18;07 - 00;01;28;08
Michael Martin
But yeah, tell everyone who's listening just a little bit about your role and then maybe a behind the scenes of God's leading you to this ministry and what really drew you to ECFA.

00;01;28;08 - 00;02;38;18
Jake Lapp
Yeah, well, Michael, you know, I'm the Vice President of Member Accountability and really just have the opportunity to work with all of our members in one way or another, which is just this unique, just this unique aspect of being able to be here at ECFA and you know, we have a great team that I lead and, and able to work with on a day by day basis. But really just my role really is once if someone becomes a member, I they kind of fall under that accountability role at that point. And so just have the opportunity to work with them there. When I think of what led me here to ECFA, you know, I've been able to work with some great organizations in my past and have been here at ECFA I guess for almost three years. So coming up close on three years and really just love being able to use the skills that God has given me for his purposes. You know, whenever I speak with ministries, I consider myself a partner with them and it's just in while I'm not doing the frontline ministry with them or there and, but I do get to get to speak into it and get to hear about it and just get to be part of it from behind the scenes.

00;02;39;05 - 00;03;27;18
Michael Martin
Good. Yeah. I love that you use that word partner with ministries because we're going to talk about accountability on today's podcast that's in, in your title, that's in the name of ECFA so I definitely want to talk about that. But I also want to take this opportunity to just to say thank you for the work that you do. You mentioned the great team here at ECFA and we do have a wonderful team, but you do just a phenomenal job leading that team. And so I want to take this opportunity just to say how much we appreciate you and the work that you do. And yes, God has gifted you with just some an amazing mind around some of these financial issues and the things that we help our members on. But too, Jake, what really comes out is just your heart in all that you do. And so I just want to take that opportunity to say thank you as well.

00;03;27;18 - 00;03;29;04
Jake Lapp
Yeah, thanks, Michael.

00;03;29;04 - 00;04;02;06
Michael Martin
So, yeah, let's transition now. Let's just jump into this conversation about accountability. Yes. It's in your title. It's also in the name of ECFA. This is a role that we play. And like you said, it is we're kind of behind the scenes, if you will, like for a lot of our members as they're out doing direct program work and things. ECFA is this partner behind the scenes through accountability and through this relationship. So let's just start with, you know, what does accountability mean to you? How does that look like? How have you seen it here at ECFA?

00;04;02;06 - 00;05;09;10
Jake Lapp
Yeah, well, I think, Michael, you hit it. Accountability is about relationship. And to me you can't you can't have accountability unless we have relationships. And so we work really hard to build those relationships with our members, whether that's through, it's not always face to face, it's not always even on the phone. But whether that's through digital or other communication efforts, we do strive to build that relationship. And, you know, to me, accountability it really is. Like you said, it's behind the scenes. We're not on the front lines of ministry and we don't want to be. What we want to do is is really empower the ministry to to reach more people. You know, all I think of all the ministries that we work with, they have these amazing visions and just in this thing with someone like crazy mission to reach people or to to translate Bibles or whatever that mission may be. And we get the opportunity to really empower them through whether that's through resources or, you know, through through educational calls, through this podcast, I guess, as well.

00;05;10;07 - 00;05;37;22
Jake Lapp
But just being able to have those hard conversations at times, you know, accountability is about hard conversations. I think saying sometimes we want to be perfect and if we were perfect, we wouldn't need accountability. That's my view. Accountability is not perfection. Accountability is is recognizing that dependance on God and knowing that at some point we're human and we're going to we're going to mess up.

00;05;38;01 - 00;05;38;10
Michael Martin
Sure.

00;05;38;10 - 00;06;26;07
Jake Lapp
And accountability. What ECFA strives to do is that redemptive approach and to come alongside and say, okay, let's course correct. You know, when I think of accountability in my own personal life, it's always about course correction. And there are times whenever you just mess up and you need someone to step alongside and have that hard conversation or of course, in a loving way. It can't be just a hard conversation. It has to be a loving conversation as well, because that accountability partner who really has to love you as well, and we love our ministries and our in our churches that we work with

00;06;26;07 - 00;07;07;20
Michael Martin
Yeah. That's so good. Wow. There's a lot that you just shared that I think we'll have the opportunity in this conversation to unpack a lot of those thoughts. But I think a real natural starting point to Jake would be as you work with, like you said, all the many different ECFA members of sizes types, different work that they're doing. At the core, though, they all shared these values. They want to be held accountable, enter into an accountability relationship, I guess. Tell us from your unique lens, because you talk with so many of them, why do you see organizations come to ECFA even just initially and wanting to start this accountability relationship and also continue it?

00;07;07;20 - 00;08;15;19
Jake Lapp
Yeah, well, I think Michael, I think they desire to be trusted. I think there's just a desire for ministers to be above reproach. I think they recognize the importance of their work. They recognize the importance of handling funds in a God honoring way. People are giving people are giving their resources to ministries and churches to use for kingdom purposes. And there comes a great responsibility with that. And so I think organizations they want to enhance trust. They want to do things the right way. They don't you know, no organization wakes up and is like, I'm going to do the wrong thing today. And they want to do the right thing. And they they they can do the right thing without accountability. But I think they desire to be held accountable. They want they want a partner who they can lean into to trust, but to also, like I said before, that course correction piece that's willing to just have that conversation to say, you know, we should look into this a little bit more or, you know, tell me a little bit more about this process.

00;08;15;19 - 00;08;40;26
Jake Lapp
And, you know, from our from our application stage, all the way into the accountability stage, whenever they're a member, it's all built on that. It's all built on, again, the building of the relationships, but also just providing resources and sharing the why why do we have the standards and what do the standards what's it look like in a practical way for ministers to adopt the standards and to go forward with complying with the standards?

00;08;42;00 - 00;09;33;13
Michael Martin
Yeah, let's continue along. Kind of a thought along those lines, too, which is, as I think about accountability, and you mentioned accountability in your personal life and in different ways that we experience this dynamic of accountability. But really the value of accountability is only there in really the willingness, I guess, kind of of both parties that are involved. But I think especially of a let's say on our side from an ECFA standpoint, being willing to ask the tough questions or being willing to have certain systems and processes in place to really provide meaningful accountability so just let's go there and talk about on a very practical level, because there may be people who are listening that they're not aware of all that ECFA does on a day to day basis to actually provide that meaningful accountability. So tell us a little bit about that.

00;09;33;13 - 00;10;19;22
Jake Lapp
Yeah, well, you're right, Michael. It's it is it's a two way street accountability is and it's built on it's built on trust both ways. We we expect our ministries to be honest in their communications with us, and they expect us to be honest with them as well, even through the hard communications. But, you know, one of the things that we do have that every year ministries renew their membership. So this isn't a one time thing. It's not just go through an application and then you're in for life. And it's a it's an ongoing work for ministries. It's, you know, every year it's it's renewing. It's committing to having financial statements done by a CPA.

00;10;19;22 - 00;10;46;21
Jake Lapp
It's this is this is a big commitment. It's a commitment not only of their time, but it's also a commitment of their resources. And accountability is commitment. You're committing to something very seriously. And we take our job seriously when it comes to accountability. And I think our ministries and church churches do as well. It's serious for them. But so through the renewal, you know, it's really their opportunity yearly to show that they are in compliance with the standards.

00;10;46;21 - 00;11;18;12
Jake Lapp
It's our biggest accountability process that we have here at ECFA. With over 2600 members, it means 2600 renewals every year that our team goes through and has the opportunity. Really, I share with our staff all the time that the renewal is a story of of the ministries accountability throughout the year. It walks through the questions related to our standards, but we also get the opportunity to look at other documents and they all tell the story of how the ministry used their resources, how their board really is is governing.

00;11;19;07 - 00;11;36;27
Jake Lapp
It just shows this beautiful picture of what ministries are doing. And so I think I think I'll pass there we have other accountability processes, Michael, which, you know, but I think the renewal it really is that that key cog in the wheel that's that's yearly and is really our touchpoint every year with them.

00;11;36;27 - 00;12;56;21
Michael Martin
That's a great way to put that and that's a real distinctive of ECFA because and when we say membership we also are really referencing the accreditation aspect of what we do. So organizations being held accountable to certain standards, you know, that ECFA has and that's our accreditation process and they earned this is behind the CEO. They, they earn the right to display the ECFA seal of integrity and so forth, but that is a real distinctive of ECFA because there are other accreditation models where there may be aren't yearly touch points, it may be just every few years or things of that nature. So that has been a real key distinctive of ECFA over the years and just speaks to really the commitment of our members to be held accountable to these standards on a yearly basis. And ECFA is role that two way street like you were talking about. But here's another practical question and that is what happens inevitably with all of the annual accreditation renewals that are processed when there's something that we see where or and maybe it's even something an organization has identified where they've said you know, hey, we realize there's maybe a change in our board or there is a change in something financially. And so we see that there's no longer compliance with the standards or there's questions that are raised like on a practical level, what does that look like?

00;12;56;21 - 00;13;36;22
Jake Lapp
Yeah, well, yeah. And it takes a lot of different forms. And maybe even stepping back, I think it's important for our listener this is voluntary. Organizations are completing their renewal every year voluntarily. This isn't a requirement. And I think that I think I think that shows just the the really the the reason why organizations want a bit voluntarily saying we want to be held accountable. And I think that's really critical for our for everyone to hear is is that they're not required to do this, but they want it. But through the renewal, you know, we really asked this whole series of questions relating to all the standards in that.

00;13;37;04 - 00;14;23;29
Jake Lapp
And that renewal gets adjusted on a yearly basis kind of based on what we're seeing in the field. So we're we're really trying to find different ways to ask questions or different different ways to ensure that members are in compliance. But, you know, of course, there are times in a renewal where we're reviewing it. And there's an issue that, like you said, it could be a board member. You know, that just happens. You're not prepared for it. And you know, ECFA does require five board members. And if you go under five, then then that's the standard issue that we have to work through with the ministry. Again, it's redemptive so, you know, we are we're really in we're in the ministry's corner, in the church's corner to hold them accountable. We're for them. We want them to come back into compliance.

00;14;23;29 - 00;14;24;19
Michael Martin
Right, right.

00;14;24;19 - 00;15;11;10
Jake Lapp
And so we work closely with them. But just through the renewal process, it may mean just to reach out to the ministry. Our staff, of course, loves to engage with our ministries. So we'll reach out and ask additional questions if something just doesn't look right on the renewal or there's a question we have in the financial statements, the first step is always to reach out to the ministry to gain more context. We don't know what happened. Maybe it's not something has changed even since the renewal has been submitted. Know when they submitted it, maybe this was the case, but now that it's a few weeks later, that's not the case anymore. So we want to make sure we have the most up to date information. And so we work closely through that communication but there are times when there's more serious things that that may hold up a renewal where we we can't renew a ministry quite yet.

00;15;11;23 - 00;15;52;25
Jake Lapp
We need them to take some additional steps. Or maybe it's we can go ahead and renew the ministry. But but there's going to be some monitoring that needs to happen like you are in compliance. But we want to monitor some some different things throughout the next year. And we also have this whole other slew of accountability processes that includes check ins and renewal policies and compliance reviews and all these other things that we can do that come into play at that point. So the renewal isn't the first stop. It's it is the key. Like I said, it's a key cog, but out of that, it can generate other accountability processes just to to partner with ministries, to be in compliance and to verify compliance.

00;15;52;25 - 00;16;37;25
Michael Martin
Yeah, absolutely. Another question for you would be just knowing how many renewals that come in. You know, each year here at ECFA, I think a question would be, you know, like how does ECFA even process all of those and there may even be some who aren't aware. I think this is implied in what you said, but there is a personal, you know, touch with every accreditation renewal. This isn't something that's just kind of sent in. And there's some automatic system where it's just approved, but there's a real personal look at each one. Just on a practical level, tell us a little bit about God's blessings with a growing team, but tell us like how does that work? How are we able to accomplish that each year?

00;16;37;25 - 00;17;52;20
Jake Lapp
Yeah, well, through God's grace, we're able to accomplish it now. When you think of 2600 members, it means processing over 200 renewals a month. And, you know, renewals happen twice a year based on ministries, year end. And so, but, but you're right, we have this amazing team that continues to grow. As ECFA grows, the team grows. And but we have we have a team of great CPAs that are committed to the mission. All of our all of our team members have a desire to see our members succeed and to see our members in compliance with these ECFA standards. A lot of them maybe have come from other ECFA members or have been part of, have known ECFA for years and really just have a passion for what they do. And I think that passion really drives us to to do things that at times, just as you said, at the end of the day, we're like, Wow, I can't believe we got through all of that today. But you're right, we we do look at every renewal the only thing that's automated is the collection of the information after that point. You know, once a member submits their renewal electronically, no more paper packets coming in the mail.

00;17;52;20 - 00;17;55;23
Michael Martin
Thankful for that. Yes. Technology, that's one of the keys.

00;17;55;23 - 00;18;20;21
Jake Lapp
Technology is key and our staff can then really look at those renewals from anywhere and anywhere where they're working. And so there is a personal eye on 2600 renewals and 2600 financial statements and however many 990s that come through, you know, the some ministries may not be required for 990 but there is a personal eye on all of those every year.

00;18;22;01 - 00;19;13;00
Jake Lapp
And while it doesn't necessarily mean a phone call to the ministry or even an email, I mean we get some renewals that are clean and we work through and again there's other accountability processes that we do occasionally to have a deeper conversation, but we so we just we just kind of work our way through and then over the course of the whole year they really do take the whole year to accomplish. And of course things are coming in at different times of financial statements and things. But I think it's important for everyone to hear that we do look at every single financial statement and every single renewal and we take our jobs very seriously

00;19;13;00 - 00;19;50;12
Michael Martin
And yet at the same time, one of observation, two that I think is important is we do take that role very seriously, but just go in a little behind the scenes. I'll go there with this is that is you do a great job also leading our team and having fun along the way and also that there's joy in the work. So tell us a little bit about that to, you know, what does that look like? Because, I mean, that's kind of a big rock every year, you know this these 2600 plus renewals. Tell us a little bit about how do you incorporate joy into the work like how do we continue to have fun even while taking the job very seriously?

00;19;50;12 - 00;20;28;11
Jake Lapp
Well, Michael, you know, I do love to have fun, so I work hard to not not make this a an assembly line type process. It's it's it's not about just it's not about just getting the work done. And as a team, I'm a I'm a big believer. If you're not having fun as a team, something's wrong. Something. Yeah, something's not right. And so, you know, while our team is not all here in the same office, we do, and I think it's important for me, we go behind the scenes we're going behind the scenes here. So give you some thoughts on what we do.

00;20;28;11 - 00;21;10;19
Jake Lapp
So we actually have a day a week that we dedicate to renewals as a team. This means pretty much everybody on our team, on the member accountability and relations team dedicates a certain day of the week, especially during the busy renewal season, not necessarily every Thursday, but about six months out of the year. And that day, we we try to all work on renewals, you know, which we block our calendars. We give that day to renewals. We, of course, have had we have some team members that work on renewals almost, you know, all year, but we give that day to renewals and we do different things. You know, we we since we're not all here and we all work in different locations, you know, we try to collaborate as a team through technology.

00;21;11;05 - 00;21;34;10
Jake Lapp
And I know a lot of those a lot of people listening all have done that as well, learn to collaborate digitally. And so we do that. And at the end of each renewal day, we celebrate what we've done for the week and how many renewals we've accomplished as a team. And just like any ministry or church listening, we have goals.

00;21;35;07 - 00;22;16;23
Jake Lapp
We do set team goals, and we don't necessarily meet those goals all the time, but we still celebrate it. You know, there are we celebrate what we've done as a team because this truly is a team effort. And so we play games. At the end of the day, we've had scavenger hunts in our houses where we're all running around the house trying to find things we've done just just all sorts of different fun activities as a team to not just have fun, but when you've looked at renewals all day, it's nice to kind of debrief as a team at the end of the day and just just do something that kind of just continues to draw us closer to each other. That that's important to me. So I'm glad we have that opportunity.

00;22;16;23 - 00;22;57;17
Michael Martin
Yeah, absolutely. And I just think it's good. Yeah. For people to, to hear and to know that there's, there's joy in this work and not just related to the mission and the different members that we get to work with, but even with each other, you know, there's that dynamic to add to other important points of celebration to you. Before we move on, I see ingredients that you incorporate are testimonies telling the good stories of what's happening, the encouragement that we hear from other ECFA accredited members as we get to work with them. So that's a little plug for, hey, if you have encouragement and you're a member who's listening, like share that with the team member who's working on your renewal, but also food.

00;22;58;22 - 00;23;09;03
Michael Martin
There's also food sometimes and that can be just I mean, there's even something biblical about that, right? Breaking bread together, even if that's virtually incorporating that into some of the work as well.

00;23;09;03 - 00;23;46;15
Jake Lapp
Yeah. And we there's a few of us that we always ask what other snacks other people have for renewal day, because it's important to us to have good snacks those days. But now I kind of I missed one aspect that I want to talk about the renewal cycle that this really motivates our team. And, and that is part of part of the renewal is a website review. And so for those listening what other opportunity do you have to look at 2600 websites during the year of large ministries and small ministries working in very secure areas or maybe just working in the same community that we live in.

00;23;46;28 - 00;24;29;27
Jake Lapp
I think, you know, here in Winchester we have members that live here and work here and that really motivates our staff to see what is God doing in your ministry? Why we're looking at the website in the, in the lens of our standards. I still encourage our staff to spend a little time learning what's going on. You know, all of our members are doing amazing work in the communities where they are, or overseas. And I think if we don't pause to look at that, we can we can easily forget what we're actually doing is like I said before, we're behind the scenes partner to empower this work. And it's so that's just another little added benefit of our of our renewals that I wanted to share.

00;24;29;27 - 00;25;29;19
Michael Martin
Absolutely, yeah a real opportunity for organizations to get to tell the story. And that includes those of us here at ECFA that are following that story. I want to come back to you, Jake, something that you also said as we began this conversation, I thought this was so key. You said that accountability or even integrity is not necessarily perfection and that ECFA was overarching posture. We believe that this is biblical as we really take a redemptive approach to the aspects of accountability and how we work with organizations. So we kind of go there for a second or two and say, what processes does ECFA have in place when there may be a situation that we're working through with an organization where, yeah, they weren't perfect. And so there is an issue with the standards compliance and that's been brought to their attention by ECFA. Like what processes do we have in place to talk about that aspect of accountability?

00;25;29;19 - 00;25;58;03
Jake Lapp
Yeah. Well when it comes to this fact that we know there's a standard concern you know, you can, you can go to the website and kind of see what our different processes are, but it may mean a formal compliance review with the ministry. And again, yeah, I think we, we chatted about this is we're in your corner, we're in the ministry's corner, but we're going to ask the hard questions and I want to make that clear. Just because we're in their corner and doesn't mean we're not going to ask very serious hard questions.

00;25;58;03 - 00;26;09;18
Michael Martin
And, and to that point, also in the corner of the donors and those that the organizations have said we're we're accountable because we want to demonstrate these to our supporters. So it's kind of that both, right?

00;26;09;18 - 00;26;24;05
Jake Lapp
It is, absolutely. You know, it's a fine balance, too, of walking through that with in complete transparency with everyone of what that process looks like. And so we have put it out on the website so people know what those processes are.

00;26;24;05 - 00;26;28;04
Michael Martin
And we'll be sure to include some links to that in the notes. But yeah, continue.

00;26;28;04 - 00;27;12;01
Jake Lapp
So when there is a formal compliance review, we we first of all, I think it's important to stop. And one of the things I try to do with all of our members when we're going through this process is to stop and pray We we rely heavily on God's wisdom through these processes. And so we spend a lot of time in prayer. I spend a lot of time. I mean, I work with a lot of those members that are in that formal compliance review, and we cover those with prayer to be able to for God to give us insight into the right questions, to ask for God to just work in the in the hearts of the member, but also in the hearts of the donors as well, to accept the information.

00;27;12;13 - 00;27;44;02
Jake Lapp
And so we walk through that process with additional information and really hard questions. And sometimes that may mean going on site to a ministry but but like you said, our goal is redemptive. Our goal is not accountability. Effective accountability is not kicking you out whenever there's an issue. And I think if we have personal accountability partners, we know that we're very thankful that our accountability partner doesn't drop us whenever we whenever we mess up.

00;27;44;10 - 00;28;04;17
Jake Lapp
And so we don't do that either. We we come alongside the ministry and we say, okay, what needs to be done to bring you back into compliance? And we share what needs to be done, and we gauge the heart of the ministry. I think in almost all instances, the ministry wants to come back into compliance, and our church and I say ministry also mean church all the same,

00;28;04;17 - 00;28;05;15
Michael Martin
All the different types.

00;28;05;15 - 00;28;50;28
Jake Lapp
Yeah, but they want to come back into compliance with the standards. Their intent was not to deceive. But, you know, sometimes we just something gets communicated we didn't catch or just something happens and, and we fall out of kind of ministry falls out of compliance and we come alongside them to it to walk them back into compliance. Now with that said, there are instances when maybe the compliance is severe or there's other instances where we do have to take further action. Maybe that suspension or termination of a member that does happen. One of the one of the unique things that we do at ECFA is is we want to be accountable as well. And we post those on our website.

00;28;51;21 - 00;29;19;08
Jake Lapp
So when a member leaves, we post we post a reason why it's so it's it's a short reason, but we give some context to a member leaving and we think that's important. Just, just so people know

00;29;19;08 - 00;31;12;00
Michael Martin
And I think that is helpful because that is sort of behind the scenes in some way. Like, yes, we post a lot of that information out on our website about what our processes are and try to be appropriately transparent in that way. But that may not be something that's just immediately evident to those that follow ECFA. But yes, there are formal processes in place whenever there needs to be a formal review of compliance and compliance reviews being opened. And that can resolve in a number of different paths, you know, including, like you said, the possibility of even a suspension or a termination. In certain cases, we don't find that that's often the case but those processes, those procedures are there. They're in place. There's one other aspect of accountability, too, that I want to just tag on to what you said, Jake, to which is there's accountability in the work that we do as well. That is, we do all of this work on a day to day basis under the oversight of the ECFA board of directors. And so we rely heavily on their wisdom. Their thoughtful questions and really their oversight. So there's really so much accountability that's kind of in the mix. But I think that's an important point to bring out as well. I was going to ask you to in some of these other processes, whether it be through check ins those are just kind of the shorthand is those are some more in-depth additional reviews that we do with members each year. Maybe it's with compliance reviews. I want to ask you about overarching trends and what sort of trends are you seeing from some of those conversations with leaders or from questions that donors are asking but there could be, you know, ministry leaders who are listening and they're saying, well, ECFA, you know, you sure do have a pulse on what's going on because of all your different ways that you're overseeing accountability with members. Can you tell us, like what are a few trends that you're seeing or things for organizations just to be mindful of?

00;31;12;00 - 00;31;27;26
Jake Lapp
Yeah. Well, I think one of the big trends we're seeing is there seems to be more desire for accountability. Um we do we're in a very watching world and it kind of everybody has a platform now.

00;31;28;17 - 00;31;43;20
Jake Lapp
You can you can put something on social media and that gains traction. So I think ministries are are seeing that happen and thinking we do need that accountability. Because we're being asked it. We're being asked more and more from donors how funds are being used or what's going on.

00;31;43;20 - 00;31;45;02
Michael Martin
People are really paying attention.

00;31;45;02 - 00;31;58;14
Jake Lapp
They are, yeah. And and so, you know, so some of the trends that we're seeing is, you know, just ensuring that you're being truthful in your communications and, you know, enhancing trust.

00;31;58;14 - 00;32;23;04
Jake Lapp
So and it's it's not you know, I'm not saying that that's like people aren't being truthful but I think, you know, a part of that standard really is Standard 7.1 is really looking at it and saying, what does a reasonable donor think when they read your appeals? And I think that's a trend. And we do have to look at it with that lens of, well, what does a reasonable donor when I look at this, what is what is that donor going to think is actually going to happen with their funds?

00;32;24;01 - 00;32;26;20
Michael Martin
So truthfulness in communications as it relates to fundraising.

00;32;26;20 - 00;33;01;19
Jake Lapp
As it relates to fundraising, you know, other things just kind of kind of going back to governance, just that need to never, never step back. You know, active governing board is critical for the success of all organizations. And we of course, get that opportunity to work closely to ensure some of those things and the standards cover some of the things that the boards need to do. And and so just working closely with boards and walking through those steps to ensure, yeah, where we are meeting the standards and we're doing those things that are required of us.

00;33;01;19 - 00;33;33;14
Michael Martin
Mm. No that's good. And I'll mention just on a real practical note to another aspect of accountability which we don't have time to necessarily talk about is the education, the proactive education around the standards and the outreach that's done. But one of the great tools that I thought you and the team did a great job with last year was this board responsibilities checklist. You know, you're talking about the importance of boards being engaged and doing their work. So yeah, there was this checklist right where we went through and said, these are all the things that as a board of an organization that we should be responsible for each year. Right?

00;33;33;14 - 00;33;55;00
Jake Lapp
Right. Yeah, there was. And even before that, just a few months before that, we published the top ten compliance reminders, which really were driven from the work that we've done. And so you know, I encourage members to even go out and look at that and to see what where are those. And even for not just members, but everybody to look to see where are some of the things that we're seeing that we're providing tips and resources to help our members.

00;33;55;11 - 00;34;31;01
Michael Martin
Right. So not just identifying issues, but then also saying, here's what you should do, right? And here are practical resources to help. Absolutely. Good. Well, Jake, one common thread and theme, a word that keeps coming up in our conversation, it's really appropriate that it is is that word of trust and ECFA's mission. It's all about enhancing trust. That is why we do what we do. So I just wanted to ask you to like how do you see the accountability relationship really enhancing trust on a practical level? How have you seen accountability help enhance trust?

00;34;31;01 - 00;34;48;12
Jake Lapp
Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, one of the one of the unique things is sharing a concern. And so I think that's one way where we see that in action on a day by day basis is we have the opportunity for donors or for others to share concerns to ECFA.

00;34;49;11 - 00;35;43;20
Jake Lapp
And that's where on the Web. That's on the website. Yeah, and and it's anonymous. You can, you can share anonymously. But that really is it's a step of accountability is allowing others to raise concerns and that's pretty unique to ECFA in the work that we do. And so, you know, I see those I just think of some of the recent scenarios that I've walked through where I've been able to kind of connect the dots for donors and ministries to work closer together. So it's not it's a two way street when a concern comes in. We work with the individual. We also work with the ministry. In a lot of those scenarios, it's maybe just a misunderstanding and we're able to partner with both and, you know, kind of form that relationship to where the donor gets a contact at the ministry and they're able to then talk with the ministry to really get their questions answered.

00;35;44;09 - 00;36;41;06
Jake Lapp
That's our goal in those scenarios. When people share our concerns, you know, we know that. We know that there's a reason why they're sharing a concern, but it's not always out of ill intent for the ministry. In most cases. It's it's I can't I can't really think of any scenarios where it was they meant to cause harm to a ministry. It really was. It we saw this and we love giving to this ministry. And we just want to make sure that we understand and so we walk through that process. And I think that's a key part of accountability is it's really what we've done is it's almost restore some trust between the donor and the ministry at that point. And it's really fun to see when that happens, when and when you hear back from a donor of like, hey, I got all my I got, I got my questions answered and you know, I don't have any concerns. And we do encourage, you know, on the on the form itself, we encourage donors to reach out to the ministry.

00;36;41;17 - 00;37;00;14
Jake Lapp
And part of that is, you know, and we we we encourage that on every member's profile, you'll see a donor contact and a way to contact the ministry. We want to we want to open that relationship up for donors. And so members have to share that information for donors to contact them. Which I think is really helpful.

00;37;00;14 - 00;37;56;26
Michael Martin
It is really helpful. And just as you share that, it's just really sinking in with me. How much of an honor and a privilege it is for ECFA to get to be in this role and like you said, to help facilitate or make connections where sometimes there are questions and really bring back that level of trust, like what a great privilege that we have. And I also want to say just how much I appreciate both the donors and ministries just being part of that process with ECF. A, you know, from a donor standpoint, raising whatever questions there may be for ministries that step up like you said voluntarily to become ECFA accredited. They play such a vital role. And I just feel like when we all really lean into that, trust really can be enhanced. That's a beautiful picture. Absolutely. So. All right. Well, we've covered a lot of ground. I do want to ask, is there anything that we've missed? Is there anything else that you would add?

00;37;56;26 - 00;38;42;02
Jake Lapp
Yeah, you know, Michael is I is I think about our conversation and we've done a great job covering accountability. And I know there's other processes we didn't get to, you know, part and you made reference to this earlier was just that kind of proactive accountability, like how are we proactive in our accountability? And there always is. There's a proactive side, but there's also a reactive side. But I'd like to focus a little more on the proactive side and just just mentioned, you know, ECFA has a whole host of resources available knowledge center with hundreds and hundreds of documents available. But but but for those members that are listening or those interested, I think one of the most unique things is when you call ECFA, you get a real person on the phone, and that is proactive accountability.

00;38;42;02 - 00;39;43;01
Jake Lapp
We want ministries to reach out and ask questions as it relates to the standards. If you're thinking about going down a road somewhere, like doing something and you're not sure how that relates to the standards, like we invite that conversation in. And I mean, I know members can submit things online. They can call in in all different ways. You know, if I love talking to members, I love working through these scenarios. They're just not sure. And of course, we don't provide legal advice. That's not our role. Um, and, but, but we can provide guidance and resources to lead them down a path of, of just increased accountability and that's just it's just such a fun opportunity. So I would just kind of leave it there of resources, reach out to ECFA, ask questions and don't don't ever feel like you're bothering us, but do reach out. Yeah. Because we invite that.

00;39;43;01 - 00;40;18;13
Michael Martin
That's a good word. So guidance, resources, relationships and all of these aspects are part of accountability. So well said. Thank you for opening that door and really just making that very clear to both our accredited members and also donors and those who are listening. This vital role that ECFA plays in accountability. Yeah, it's really an honor to get to do that. And Jake, thank you to you and the team for really making that possible on a day to day basis. We just appreciate that so much.

00;40;18;13 - 00;40;20;04
Jake Lapp
Yeah. Thanks, Michael. It's been fun.

00;40;20;04 - 00;40;23;23
Michael Martin
All right. It has been. We'll look forward to having you back on a future podcast.

00;40;23;23 - 00;40;24;20
Jake Lapp
All right. Sounds good.