Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 62 (Michael Morelli)
===
Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I'm your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast we explore the table, food, eating and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
And today I'm joined by Michael Morelli.
Michael is the Associate professor of theology and Ethics at Northwest College and Seminary and ACTS seminaries, both are affiliates of Trinity Western University. He's also an adjunct professor of theology at Trinity's Religious Studies and nursing schools. He has a PhD in theological ethics from the University of Aberdeen, Scotland, and is the author of Theology, Ethics and Technology in the work of Jacques Ellul and Paul Virillio: A Nascent Theological Tradition, and editor of Desert Wilderness, Wasteland and Word, a new essay by Jacques Ellul in five critical engagements.
So thanks for joining me today, Michael. It's great to reconnect. Um,
Michael Morelli: yeah, thanks for having me, Andrew. I am, I am so pumped to be here.
Andrew Camp: We met at Theology [00:01:00] Beer Camp, um, which is becoming more of a intro for me with, with guests because, you know, I've met really cool people at Theology beer camp and you know, you and I just started talking that first night, um, and yeah, just was really great connecting with you and learning, and then you were speaking on ai and I'm like, oh, ai, like, there's a lot here that needs to be discussed.
So here we're, yeah.
Michael Morelli: Yeah. I, yeah, I, I remember. It di it didn't take long for us to start talking about food. No. And, and beverage. And I think that's why we became fast friends. Um, yeah. In, but, but paradoxically, uh, due to our appreciation of slow food,
Andrew Camp: right.
Michael Morelli: Fast Friends, slow food, maybe that's,
Andrew Camp: maybe that's the title of this podcast
Michael Morelli: Fast Friends?
Andrew Camp: Yes.
Michael Morelli: Yes. I just did it. I just, there we go. Oh, there we go.
Andrew Camp: There we go. Love it. Yes. So I, you know, I invited you on 'cause you actually had a [00:02:00] podcast with Trip Fuller and Paul Hoard right around Christmas about AI and the incarnation, which was like, oh wow, this is the most beautiful, um, advent reflection, you know, for me during that season was really, oh,
Michael Morelli: thank you.
Andrew Camp: Um, and so that just triggered me like, oh, let's, what's AI and food, and how can we talk about it? And what might food do to help us counter what AI might be promoting? And so before we even get into food, which we wanna get to, like what, when we say ai, like what are we talking about and help our, the listeners sort of situate what this is.
Michael Morelli: Yeah, that's a great, great way to start is what do we mean when we, when we say ai, and there's lots of ways to define it. And I, I think the jury is still out as it were in terms of how to define it. Um, and I, I like to say [00:03:00] that at this point, what we think of when we think of AI or artificial intelligence, um, is actually closer to machine learning.
Um, where it's a technology that, um, uses data inputs, um, information that is, that is fed to it and reads it at an incredibly fast and deep level in order to output information. Um, but we've moved now to, uh, another stage I would say, where it's not just information, it's actually performance of tasks and it's actually generation of content based on the processing of existing information or, or content.
Hmm. Um, now the other layer is a lot of that process from the start, uh, to finish is now [00:04:00] presented in a more personalized way. So as this technology is working, it is. Performing a personality. So you don't just, you know, go to Google and type in, you know, uh, a search for something, and then it gives you the, the results that it thinks you, you're looking for.
Um, you make a search or you, uh, input a prompt, but it's like you're talking to a person or some kind of being a sentient, being with a personality that's helping you along the way as it's doing it. And so that's where the artificial intelligence piece comes in. And there's, you know, back and forth about whether or not that can actually be defined as intelligence, right?
So if we're gonna go with like a really strict definition of artificial intelligence, we're probably talking about. Machine sentience, right? Like a, a, a level of [00:05:00] consciousness, uh, uh, personality, awareness, uh, critical thinking, creative, uh, you know, processing that would be similar to, uh, the way that humans do all of those things.
And so, are we there yet? I personally do not think so, but there are other people who would say, if we're not already there, we're pretty darn close. And some people make the point. Well, if you look, say at ransomware bots, once they're released into the world, this is Beth Singler. I actually, uh, she does a lot of great work on AI and religion.
Um, she would say, well, you know, once ransomware bots are released into the sort of online universe, they kind of act autonomously. Right. They will infiltrate your computer system, you know, steal some files that you don't want the world to see. Hold them for ransom and talk to you like they're [00:06:00] like a kidnapper.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: So this is the kind of gray area that we're in, is the, the processing power, uh, has, has reached a point where, um, whether or not it can actually be defined as sentience, they actually perform it pretty darn well.
Andrew Camp: Oh.
Michael Morelli: So, so that's kind of where we're at. But, you know, I've, I talked to a, a computer programmer once.
This is the last thing I'll say. Um, he said, you know, we're not at that point where, you know, when you watch a sci-fi movie and you see robots walking around and they're kind of functioning like humans in terms of consciousness, he's like, we're not there yet. We. Some people say, well, maybe, maybe they are and we just don't know yet.
Uh, but as far as I can tell, and I might be proven wrong, um, we're not there yet.
Andrew Camp: Okay. Good. [00:07:00] I'm glad. So I
Michael Morelli: don't have to mention, yes, I would say, I would say, I would say the same. I'd say, uh, let's figure out this whole, what it means to be a human thing first before we start creating new being. Or at least trying to create new being.
Like, let's, let's focus on, um, sorting out our basic humanity and caring for each other as humans. Full stop before we start working on, on inventing new being. But that's just me, right? Call me a traditionalist.
Andrew Camp: Right? Yeah. 'cause like that's the like, extreme AI that like, you know, but we're also de dealing with ai, you know, within our jobs, within, you know, if you're a teacher, uh.
Um, which you are, or a parent, you know, your kids are, kids are trying to figure out, students are trying to figure out AI and how to get around stuff and using AI to short circuit, um, you know, and cheat, I guess, really. Um, you know, and, and so we, we use AI and yet we're, I think there's a lack of critical [00:08:00] reflection.
And so like, why, even beyond like a sentient being idea, like what, what do the, what does the normal person need to think about as they engage with AI that might be helpful, you know, want to maybe help themselves but also help kids or students think through this i, these ideas.
Michael Morelli: Yeah. Well, the first thing I would say is that it's quite widespread and it was probably more present in our day-to-day lives.
Um, then, then we knew, um, and now it's becoming more obvious because of advances in, in the technologies. And of course, too the, the marketing and the stories that are being told about those technologies, right? So, I mean. Just an average website or, um, you know, you think about factories and [00:09:00] automation, right?
Like those are all technologies that are using this basic machine learning, um, uh, to, to perform tasks, right? Um, to process information and, and spit out information that you're looking for, um, and or build stuff, right? So it's, it's, it's been around, but I think now it's just kind of reached a, a stage where we're, we're seeing it more and, uh, there's, there's more access to it, right?
Um, and that's a, that's kind of like, you know, you, that's similar to computers, right? You know, the first computer, you know, filled up a big room and only a big corporation could afford it, right? And, and now it's like, well, so many more people have access to computers. Yeah. And so it's just kind of reached that, that sort of critical mass in mainstream market.
Um. But I think for me, you know, I, I, I, you know, I do teach and, um, I do run into students who use, uh, generative, you know, software or AI [00:10:00] or chat GPT, uh, to do their assignments. And, um, I kind of have a, well, first of all, I say, you know, if you're gonna use it, like go for it. Just tell me that you're using it because I'm not gonna get mad if somebody uses a search engine or a journal database,
Andrew Camp: right?
Michael Morelli: Like, it, it's, it, it can be useful to help you retrieve information, but hopefully you're analyzing it critically. Mm-hmm. Because it's getting better, but it's been shown time and again, that it'll just make up quotes from authors that, that don't actually exist.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: Or, you know, it'll create a bibliography of resources and, you know, I'll, I'll click on 'em and it takes you to.
Uh, webpage that's totally different. Or, or just like the link doesn't exist. So, you know, it is kind of like, just because these technologies exist, hopefully critical [00:11:00] thinking and analyzing your sources doesn't go out the window. But because of the ease of use and the apparent trustworthiness of it, and kind of the, the, um, the allure of this technology that's so personalized and seemingly effective, uh, unfortunately that that level of critical thinking goes out the window.
But I mean, unfortunately, look at the last 10, 15 years, I mean, we didn't need AI to not have critical thinking about online media. I'm sorry to say. Yeah. Like, this is not an anomaly. This is not a, a, a sort of bug in the way that we engage with online media that like this is a feature.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: Uh, the second thing I'll say is, you know, when, when I, when I find out that a student has used it.
I will, I will connect with them and I'll just say, look, we got software that scans this and yours was flagged. Let's have a conversation. And I say, you know, if you just tell me that you've used it, then that's strike one, and I'll give [00:12:00] you a chance to resubmit with no penalty. And I say, here's why I think it's important that you take this as an opportunity to reflect on, on what's happened and why you might want to resubmit and not use these tools.
I tell them, you cannot shortcut the process of personal development and formation like you can, you can perform that process, but the whole point of reading and synthesizing that research and reflecting on that research and then crafting an essay. Or doing a presentation or, or doing anything creative.
In this case, it's knowledge production. Um, it's not just about the end product, it's actually about the process that gets you to the end product. Mm-hmm. Like I actually believe it changes lives. 'cause it changed my life and it changed a lot of other people lives too. That's why we actually do it. And so I tell them like, this isn't just about [00:13:00] finishing something and getting a grade and then, you know, hopefully getting a job.
If you actually view this as an opportunity for transformation, this actually might change your life. And I think the problem is though, for a higher education perspective is for too long, you know, uh, academics have assumed that everybody knows that. Right. Just because I like reading, just 'cause I like writing essays.
I assume that everybody just magically knows why you would, you would spend time doing this. And I just realized with, with ai, it just sort of pushed us to the forefront. I'm like, oh, I need to be very upfront with students about why you would take the time to do this. If the best answer I have to give is because this is just what you do at school is like, why wouldn't you?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Use ai. Right, right. And And this connects to food. I mean, we'll get into that.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: But it's the same thing. It's like, well if you just want sort of protein and energy Yeah. Why wouldn't you just eat some cottage cheese? [00:14:00]
Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah.
Michael Morelli: But it's actually the process of producing a meal also does something to you.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Before you even sit down and eat it.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: Right. Yeah. That's the analogy there for me. So.
Andrew Camp: Love it. Um, and just to like capital or, you know, to go back to what you said about just the prevalence of it, like we're recording this the day after Super Bowl, and, um, there were multiple AI commercials. I think of one I saw, remember one from Google AI that like, it's this mom and the son talking about their home and like, Hey, can, can you put a, a bed there?
Paint, you know, show my walls in blue. Um, you know, and then can you show a garden in our yard? And, um, you know, and it, it's preying may, that might be too strong of a word, preying on these like, emotions of like, oh, see, it's just benign. Um, and in some respects there are some aspects maybe where it is benign, but to just wholeheartedly accept it as benign without critically thinking about what it does to our [00:15:00] humanity puts us in a weird spot.
Right? And so, um. It, it, yeah. It was just weird watching those commercials, reflecting on what? Knowing that I was gonna have a conversation with you today and being like, Hey, wait, what are they actually doing? You know, uh, to us to try to, you know, get us to accept that, hey, no, this is just part of who we are now.
Michael Morelli: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a, that's a, a wonderful point that we're maybe starting to see. We're past the point of, you know, the proclamations of, you know, uh, the singularity and, and look at this achievement and look at all these wonderful things we can do to more benign, uh. Ads and, and rhetoric and storytelling and aesthetics to get us to sort of integrate it into our daily lives.
And [00:16:00] the first thing that jumps into my mind is who benefits one, the more we integrate these things into our lives, like what data is being generated as, as we use these tools to see what color we might want our walls to be, or our garden that we're envisioning, you know, having some different, um, different sort of versions that we can test before we go to Home Depot or wherever
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: To buy these things. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure Home Depot or whatever hardware store, uh, wants to know that we're thinking about this so it can start firing ads our way. Right? Right. And that already happens, but this is, you know, at a, at a more targeted and probably more aggressive, aggressive level.
Um, but yeah, I mean. I think it also, the second thing I would say is that, and Ellul says this over and over, as do other thinkers about technology, is one of the stories we tell about it is that it's neutral, right? Yeah. [00:17:00] It's, it's not good or evil. It's not, you know, positive or negative. It's how, it's how we use it that that really matters, right?
We're in control. It's kind of like, you know, a more benign argument when it comes to guns of like, well, guns don't kill people. People kill people. And you're like, have you ever held one of these things?
Andrew Camp: Yeah,
Michael Morelli: it feels awesome. It like, it, it, you feel like, um, you know, the guy in diehard or you know, the Terminator, like you, like there's something about the design of this tool that actually produces a reaction in you, so it does shape you.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Michael Morelli: And in the same way, like it's, it's just unarguable that something has banal as a, a phone with computing processing. Like we have, like these things do shape us. Now some of those are. Positive effects, but some of them are negative. And so how do we start to view the technologies that have really been integrated into our day-to-day lives and the ones that we might integrate?
Mm-hmm. How do we actually [00:18:00] think deeper about the ways in which they're forming us for better, for worse? Because 'cause they're not benign, even if the ad is trying to convince us that it is.
Andrew Camp: Right. And that's so important because Yeah, too often I think we, we just assume, well, okay, it's the newest technology.
I'm, you know, people are good. I'm just gonna accept that, you know, nobody's creating this for nefarious reasons. But, and, and maybe that's true, but again, like, you know, again, who's benefiting, who's getting richer from this and who's being exploited, um, from this? And like, you know, the prime example is, you know, Tesla had to delay their self-driving cars because, you know, when they developed the model, they only developed it to recognize white males.
And so like, they would
like,
Michael Morelli: that's so unsurprising,
Andrew Camp: right? Yeah. Like,
Michael Morelli: yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. So like, you know, it, you know, when they started testing it, you know, [00:19:00] people of color were like, it wasn't recognizing them as human because the system in which it was developed only took into account the developer's mode of being versus, okay, how do we make sure it recognizes different skin tones and different genders and make sure that everybody's safe versus only, you know.
Me.
Michael Morelli: Yeah. And that's a, that's a point that's been made about, um, ai, you know, software and technologies, is that the information outputs are only as good as the information inputs. And, you know, the, the information being generated that to, to feed these machines are generated by humans who are inherently biased.
So we tend to view, again, technology as this neutral, analytical thing. And even if it were the people that are, that are, you know, prompting and giving it the data and, and, and, and designing it, do have biases and those creep in. [00:20:00] So that's a great example. You know, there's, there's been stories about real estate companies or banks, um, trying to decide who they're gonna, um, give mortgages to or, you know, give bank accounts to.
And, um, because of the biases that are, um. In the information. You know, if you're not white and middle class, then you get, you know, denied a mortgage, right. For example. Um, there's also, uh, um, stuff about crime as well, right? Uh, determining, you know, who might be an offender or re offender and, and that information typically is, is very biased towards people who are not white as well.
So, yeah, um, I think, I think that is, uh, kind of the, the deeper reality that's going on despite the trust that we put in these technologies.
Andrew Camp: And then to nuance it, because I think it's easy just, you know, to become binary in our thinking. Well, AI's bad. It must not use it like full confession. I use AI as I'm [00:21:00] producing my podcast to help create summaries and to help give ideas about, you know, titles and blog, you know, and social posts, not blog posts, um, social posts, just to help, you know, make it a little more convenient so I don't, you know.
Preparing for this podcast has had me rethinking, you know, okay, what is this beneficial? Like, should I be doing this? Or, you know, um, but there's also good aspects where AI is being used. And, you know, I was reading, um, a book by Sam Cass, who was, you know, the Obama's nutritional advisor. And he talks about, um, Sarah Menker, um, who's a global food activist.
And she ran and a global technologist. And she ran models of like, okay, when are we going to run into a crisis of food production given our climate crisis? You know, and when is, when is the need for calories? Are the number of calories needed not going to be able to be produced by the world? You know? And so she's running predictive models, you know, in a very [00:22:00] expert contained way of like, okay, what, what are we running up against?
And so I think there are some instances when AI in the right hand of experts. You know, and I think they're even doing this in cancer research and protein folding, from what I've heard, like there are ways in which this can be done to benefit us and to help us, you know, come to conclusions quicker than we, we could otherwise.
Michael Morelli: Yeah, yeah. I would, I would agree with that. Um, you know, people like Jacques Ellul and Paul Virillio, a lot of these, uh, 20th century continental, philosophical, sociological, theological anthropological writers, um, typically are label as technological pessimists. And I, and I get why, uh, because they are quite critical. Um, they don't write off technology wholesale, although they're pretty suspicious.
And, you know, I, I do this in, in the, the book that I, that I wrote, which was based on my, my dissertation research. Um, but I situate them within the post World War II [00:23:00] context in Europe where, um, you know, they witnessed atrocities. And a lot of those were made possible by, you know, technologies that, yes, technologies of war and weapons and, and these sorts of things.
But they also saw firsthand radio, cinema and other sort of mass media technologies being used to, uh, you know, indoctrinate people into, into really awful ideologies. And then, you know, all the atrocities of the second World war. So that really scared them and that is what, um, causes their writing to have the tone that it does.
And I think, um, we're seeing the prophetic nature of that work. But I've also gone on a journey in the last, you know, six, seven years, um, having to say. Okay. Like it's really helpful to think critically about this, but I also actually start [00:24:00] to, uh, started to feel like I needed to have a bit more imagination to think about constructive uses towards which some of these technologies could, could be put.
And, um, I, I just think that that is, um, a good way to go. But I, I often use the analogy of like, when you get your driver's license, uh, you have to learn the rules. You have to, um, have somebody who's experienced teach you how to drive. Uh, you know, maybe you go to driver's education and then you have multiple tests and regulations and licensing stages.
At least where I am in Canada, you know, you have different stages, um, in order to verify, you know, beyond a reasonable doubt that you can operate this technology that. Is helpful, but also can really hurt yourself and other people.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: And I think, you know, for a lot of these things we just don't have that.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Michael Morelli: So my [00:25:00] answer isn't like, more regulation, but maybe the answer is like, more formation and wisdom on how to use these tools responsibly, where we're like, yeah, here are the constructive uses, uh, for these things, but also like, here's how dangerous they are too. And I think in our sort of North American, you know, context, we're so focused on the positives that we just kind of, you know, view anybody bringing up the, but what about the negatives is kind of like, oh, you're just a Luddite, you're backwards, you're whatever, whatever.
And so it's, it's like how do we have this fuller view?
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Michael Morelli: Uh, so we're conscious both of, of, of the good, but also just how bad it can get.
Andrew Camp: Thank you for bringing us to this fuller picture. 'cause you know, that's, we, we, you know, as we were thinking or as I was thinking about this podcast of like, okay, how do we situate AI and this technology into this sort of modern moment?
You know? [00:26:00] But then also, how do we think in the wisdom tradition of our Christianity and the church and all the people that have come before us of like, okay, how do we actually think about what it means to be human? Because really I think AI forces us to ask like, okay, what does it mean to be human? And what does it mean to be creaturely, um, you know, and to live a life on this earth?
Um, and so yeah, like in, in this modern moment, we find ourselves in like, you know, I think part of what you were saying is, you know, oh, you're a ludite. You're just bringing us down. Come on, get on board. It's all about more, it's all about acceleration, accumulation. You know, in this whirlpool we find ourselves in just barely trying to keep up.
And, um, you know, for me Hartmut Rosa's explanatory power of acceleration and resonance has been really helpful for me to think about modernity. Um, and so yeah, like what, how, how do you situate, this technological moment within modernity and late modernity? [00:27:00]
Michael Morelli: Yeah. Um, so I'll, I'll start with the, the wisdom piece and, and maybe we can get to that later.
Yeah. But, but that is where I landed and, you know, one of the challenges about, uh, that comes with talking about technology or writing about it as I have is, um. Like, how do you talk and write about it because it's so ubiquitous.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Like when we're talking about technology, like what is it and Right.
Right. And typically, um, you know, we'll refer to specific technologies and usually it's the, the, the latest ones that are raising all these sorts of questions. And a lot of times, um, it's like, we think these questions are novel, right? Like, never before have we asked this question before, never before as humanity had to confront whatever, whatever.
And you're like, well, maybe sometimes that's true, but honestly, like if we, if we just drill down a little bit.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Um, we actually start to discover that people have been asking questions in, in [00:28:00] similar ways, maybe different forms for different reasons, for, for ages. And so that's the move that I realized I needed to make is like.
Let's actually turn to humans and say, without, uh, humans, we don't get technology. Right? Right. And of course, our modern moment is very technological. And this is, this is what I, I said in my book, I'm like, we're talking about technology, we're talking about modernity because, um, the type of modernity we know can't seem to be what it is without technology.
Right. Um, if you ask somebody what's, what's the modern world, they would probably say, well, it started with the industrial revolution, and here we are with, you know, the technologies that we have and so on, so on. And it's afforded us this quality of life. And it's raised these, these, these opportunities, but also these challenges for us.
And that's inherently tied to technology.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: So, um, so that's kind of the, the where we are. And so I just kind of say like, well, what does it mean to be human in such a world? [00:29:00] And this is where the question of wisdom comes in for me as a theologian is like, we need wisdom for this.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Michael Morelli: Um, because that's a question that's been been posed in, in numerous ways throughout the ages is like, what is it to live well?
What is the way to life? What is the way to death?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, but in terms of our particular moment, this theme of acceleration I think is really important. Um, you know, I, I read a, a fair amount of, of Rosa at the time I was reading a lot of Paul Virillio because Paul Virillio has written a lot on speed and acceleration and so.
And Rosa actually engages with Virillio, and rightly so, because both would say that, um, you know, if you look at sort of the, the, the history of technology, it's like ever increasing acceleration, uh, for the purposes of accumulation, um, of a number of things. It could be power, it could be wealth, it could be resources, what, what have you.
But, [00:30:00] um, we've reached a point of like super acceleration and we're, we're addicted to it. And, um, it's this paradoxical reality of like, we're moving faster than we ever have, but also inertia sets in.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Michael Morelli: So, so it's kind of like when you fly on a plane, you know, for 13 hours and you arrive in a new place, like 13 hours is long, but you know, that's, that's still pretty fast to get to some of the places that you go,
Andrew Camp: right?
Michael Morelli: And then you get there and, and you have jet. Right. Your body needs to catch up, right. With the speed of that trip.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Um, and you know, once you get into things like social media, uh, it compresses time and space to the point where people all over the world in different time zones and in different spaces kind of meet online in this real time space.
[00:31:00] And it's, it's, it's everywhere in No Nowhere, right? Right. It's, it's, we call it real time, but it's hyper real time. That's,
Andrew Camp: you know,
Michael Morelli: Bo Yard. Um, and, and that creates a kind of jet lag and it creates a kind of collision actually. It creates a kind of violence, right? Yeah. So to give you an example, it's like, you know, it takes one idea, ideolog, who's leading the most empower, powerful nation, you know, in the world to send out one tweet and it sends the, the stock markets like.
You know, up or down or it sends like other leaders, you know, into a frenzy to respond. Right? That's, that's, that's a phenomenon of, of acceleration and inertia and collision and violence that is pretty significant. Which is precisely why a lot of us, you know, if we're wrapped up in the news cycle, the breaking news cycle, it kind of feels like we're getting whiplash, kind of feels like we're [00:32:00] getting burnt out.
And then there's some people who are just like, I, I gotta check out, I can't handle this anymore. Like that is the, um, the, the end result of our addiction to ever increasing speed.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Michael Morelli: Um, through our technologies.
Andrew Camp: No, and I think Hartmut, you know, with this aggression that you talk about, like, it comes back to like, we want to control, you know, and, and in our effort to control things, we meet the world as an, an aggression because like, you know, we're gonna battle for, you know, um.
Our ideas, our mode of being over and against anybody who might get in the way, whether that's the created world or another person. Uh,
Michael Morelli: yeah. Yeah. And I think he's right there. I mean, this is my aha moment. Um, it, and, and I mean, I, this, this, we get this from Foucault as well. It's all about power, man. It's all about power.
Yeah. Like, you know, the way that he end ends, um, discipline and punish. The ending to that book, just like, I [00:33:00] think describes this modern condition so well, and so cryptically, he's like, if you just listen. You can hear like the roar of this battle raging, and it's, this is like battle for power.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Michael Morelli: Right. Um, you know, money's important.
Okay. Yeah. But honestly, what we've discovered is that, um, power is what really matters. 'cause it's like, as long as people think you're a billionaire, that's all that matters. You don't actually need to have it. Yeah. You just need them to think that you're a billionaire. Right. And people will like, give you power.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Right. So, yeah. I, I think so. We, I say we love technology because it offers us power and I just say, well watch out because it demands blood, right? Mm-hmm. It, it demands your blood or somebody else's, or both. And, you know, as a Christian, I'm like, I, I I am, I'm very anti-violence.
Andrew Camp: Yep. You and I both, right?
I think. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But I think, I think it goes back to, you know, I think I [00:34:00] was reading someplace else with about, you know, we're in this capitalism of influencers, like,
Michael Morelli: mm.
Andrew Camp: You know. That power, the power of an influencer is to dictate what is said or not said, or what is believed or not believed, and to influence the trajectory of, of humanity, whether that's, you know, religious communities or the global economy.
You know, and again, it's, it's this give and take, right? Because like you and I both have podcasts, like you want to build a platform that is sustainable, that, you know, this isn't a cheap endeavor. It requires time and resources, and
Michael Morelli: yeah,
Andrew Camp: I do it for the love because I love connecting with people like you and having these conversations.
Maybe it's just for me and hopefully the listeners appeal, you know, but so it's like this weird, like, you know, you're, I'm torn, you know, of like, okay, I want, I want to expose people to wisdom and this, these ideas and hopefully helping us think better, but at the same time, the influencer trap is [00:35:00] real and like it does demand something that I.
Am I willing to give it, give myself to it?
Michael Morelli: Yeah. Oh, I mean, I referenced this earlier in terms of that journey I was describing of, of imagining, you know, constructive uses for, um, things like, you know, social media and podcasting. And, you know, I was decidedly off that for a very long time. I used to work in communications actually.
Um, and I kind of burnt out and that kind of prompted the research that I did into, into technology. But I, I kind of took a very long break from it and I really kind of fell into like, well, I don't need to be on there and, you know, I don't need to, you know, fall into that sort of stuff. Like I'm trying to be an influencer and platforming myself.
And then, um, you know, I would say just over a year and a half ago, I just realized [00:36:00] whether I like it or not. I am in higher education and part of my job is inviting people to spend money to come and learn at the institution I am a part of.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Michael Morelli: And, um, we're seeing declining enrollment in, in universities and like theological schools.
Yep. There's decreased institutional trust all over the board, and there's increasing trust in individuals who seem to have a grasp of the situation or know the truth or have some wisdom to offer whether or not that's reliable or not. We are in a moment where people are much more likely to trust an individual than they are an an institution.
Andrew Camp: Wow.
Michael Morelli: And, and so I said to myself, I'm like, look, if I wanna actually have a job as a, as a professor, you know, in five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, and I, and I hope to 'cause I love doing what I'm doing. I need to actually share a little [00:37:00] bit about myself so that people can see who I am and what I'm about, and then figure out whether or not they'd want to come hear me speak about something, let alone, you know, pay money to come do a whole two year program or three or four year program.
Right. Like yeah, I can, I can gripe about that or I can be like, well this is whether I like it or not. Like this is a part of my job now. Yeah. If I want to still have it.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Michael Morelli: And that kind of pushed me to think, well, like, if that's the case, then how do I do this in a way that doesn't fall into this platform building influencer trend?
Like, I would like to influence people, but I would like to influence people in a way that doesn't make me feel like I'm pretending to be something I'm not.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: I would like to influence people in a way that doesn't play into an algorithm that rewards me for talking shit about other people.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Michael Morelli: Right.
Like, yeah. Yeah. You know, 'cause like the, the, you get rewarded for mean things and like [00:38:00] offensive things. Yeah. And, and, and short things. Right. Like my friend's like, Michael, your posts are too long. And I'm like, okay, fine. I'll do some 30 second ones, but I can't help myself. Like Yeah, like what we're talking about has to be more than 30 seconds.
And I don't care if the algorithm doesn't reward me for that. I'm like the 300 versus the 1500 people who see it. Maybe that meets them on a day where they needed to hear that. Mm-hmm. And, and, and I go away thinking, well maybe that's doing something for, you know, not a massive group of people, but it's doing something.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: And so like, I think it's, it's, it's great where there are people like you and, and hopefully me who are and, and others, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Who are saying like, um, it's possible to be on here. You know, the, the podcast fear doing what we're doing and do it in a way that doesn't sort of, um, just go with the flow.
Mm-hmm. That we're swimming upstream, but it's actually leading to [00:39:00] something of value. And I, and I, and I think it, I think it does. I think it does. Um, but yeah, you know, like decreased trust in institutions has produced this phenomenon where we are more likely to trust individuals with microphones and, and social media platforms.
And I think there's positives to that, but as we're also seeing there, there are very real negatives and dangerous to it as well.
Andrew Camp: No, I really appreciate the word just 'cause Yeah. Um, you know, as one engaging with a podcast, you're, I'm always trying at least hopefully to think about, okay, what do I want to present as a way of being in the world that might.
Counteract some of the trends we see. Um, and obviously for me that, you know, everything revolves around the table. You know, for, like, when you're a hammer, everything's a nail. And so for me, when I, as a former chef and as a person who loves food, everything's a table. Um, which [00:40:00] isn't always good. 'cause I don't think the table is the solution to every, is the answer to every question.
But, you know, it, it, it's, it's a, it's, it's a lot. It's a lot.
Michael Morelli: Yeah. I, I think so. I mean, I, I am, um, you know, I don't have a lot of moves actually in terms of like, my theology. Like for me it's like, it all, it all leads to a few things. Uh, yeah, actually like talking,
Andrew Camp: right.
Michael Morelli: Preaching or prayer, uh, water baptism.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Michael Morelli: And then eating, yeah. Communion.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Michael Morelli: And resting Sabbath and then serving.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Right. Which, and, and all of the things that proceed, the serving people, especially people in need, who Jesus says he is, all of the things that proceed, the service actually form you in the type of person who serves well Yeah.
And receives well. So, um, yeah. It's like I've got no new answers.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: Yeah. So, um, and, and I can say, you know, for people listening, like I've met Andrew, we've hung out in [00:41:00] person over the course of a couple days, and like, I don't see a difference between Andrew in person and Andrew on, on, on screen.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Michael Morelli: And, and I remember I used to work with, uh, a pastor who said that to me. He said, Michael, you know, when you're upfront, I want you to be the same person up front that I, that you are when you're getting coffee after. And I think that should be the goal for all of us Yeah. Is like, how do we have that alignment between who we are in person and who we are when there's a camera on, or we're talking in front of an audience?
Andrew Camp: We thank you.
Michael Morelli: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: And you know. So the table. So I think, you know, this is where, yes, I think, you know, this creaturely life that we're called to, you know, one that's rooted in creation. You know, I think we always have to come back to this fact that, you know, the Bible opens in a garden, um, you know, full of delight and beauty and food and everything that was pleasing to the eye.
Um, and so like as you've thought about the food and table, like where, how do you [00:42:00] see the table? Like maybe start with the church, you know, 'cause I think then that informs our smaller tables, but like, how does the table operate to maybe cut against the grain of AI and what AI is asking us to become?
Michael Morelli: Hmm.
Yeah, that's a excellent question and I could answer it in a number of ways. But I was thinking about this in preparation for this conversation and. One of the things that I, that I love about, uh, and I, and I referenced, you know, the sacraments, right? Um, ordinances, depending on what tradition, um, you are a part of, like is, is God points to water, bread, and wine and says these are things other than what they look like.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Michael Morelli: And so, right. Um, [00:43:00] the water one is a bit more sort of like, yes, there's the cleansing piece, but you know, also baptism is like a representation of be, you know, dying and being raised to new life in Jesus.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: You know, before that word goes out, who, who looks at that and is like, this represents the dying and raising again of a first century Jewish rabbi who said he was the son of God.
Like, but the word causes us to see the water as represented of it, and perhaps even mediating that, right?
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Michael Morelli: So it, it, it, it opens a door to a reality beyond what we see, you know, materially. And in the same way the communion table does that is here's, here's everyday bread, um, bread and, and here's wine that's can be everyday, uh, but also a little bit more, uh, ceremonial or, or celebratory.[00:44:00]
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Michael Morelli: And even in themselves, these are, these are wonderful things that evoke all sorts of memories and feelings and so on and thoughts. Uh, but I'm also going to, to tie them to the, um, the, the sacrifice of. The son of God, and it's going to, um, mediate that reality in some way. But it's, it's not just gonna, you know, help you remember that.
And it's not just gonna mediate that, it's also gonna, gonna open the door to this, this God that, that actually meets you in the here and now and invites you to sit at the table and eat mm-hmm. With, with him. And it also gestures to a future reality too, in, in, in terms of a banquet, a wedding banquet where we all gather and celebrate and eat together and laugh and sing.
And, and as it, as it does that, um, you know, it starts to train form and perhaps even transform us in the, [00:45:00] into the types of people who don't just look at, you know, water in the baptismal tank or found, or, you know, the, the elements on the table. When we gather as the church, it also starts to shape how we look at bread on the table in the morning.
It also starts to shape the way that we don't even just like look at wine or grape juice. It shapes the way that we look at our coffee. It shapes the way that we look at our tea. It shapes the way we look at our beer. It shapes the way that we look at our water. And then we start to see the reality behind the reality where, uh, opposites attract, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Um, like attracts like, but also opposites attract. And, and that to me, like connects to the church is, is this is the magic of, of communion is like a whole bunch of people that would never get together. Were not for this, all of a sudden getting together and eating, and then hopefully that's happening in our homes too,
Andrew Camp: right?
Michael Morelli: And so with, with ai. [00:46:00] Um, it, it doesn't seem to be able to create those types of paradoxical connections, right? Mm-hmm. It's just connecting dots at this point of this connects to this, that connects to that, and, and it's, it's, it's just more straightforward. It's, and, and we, we think it's wrong if it's giving us unlikely connections, right?
We want the clearest, right. Most airtight connections. So there's no symbol. There's no metaphor, and there's, there's therefore not the mediation or revelatory capacity of symbols and metaphors. Um, and so that's where I think it, I would answer it in terms of the AI conversation is for certain things, it's gonna be really great in terms of like, while I'm in a new town and where's, where's some great restaurants to go to?
Okay. Maybe, but it might also just help to ask a local
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Or whatever. But it's, it's these, these things, the table. Uh, [00:47:00] forms unlikely relationships and connections that wouldn't make sense otherwise. And I think that's the chief distinction. I think that's why it's so incredibly important.
Andrew Camp: I love that phrase.
It makes connections that otherwise wouldn't have happened, you know? And um, I recently recorded it conversation with Paul and Billy Hoard. Yeah. Um, you know, and, and we were talking about the Eucharist and like that it is this disgusting act in which we are taking in, you know, we are cannibalistic, you know, like at its root.
Michael Morelli: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know? Yeah.
Michael Morelli: It's in the Bible. Jesus says, he is like, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you're not getting into the kingdom in heaven. And everyone's like, this is a hard saying. And he's like, oh no, you misheard me. He doesn't say that. He's like, yeah, it's hard.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, right.
Michael Morelli: It's weird,
Andrew Camp: right?
Yeah. Like it's really like food at its core is us taking in something and being transformed by it. Like when I eat, I take in the substance and it becomes who I am. You know, and so I take in [00:48:00] Jesus and it hopefully Jesus takes root, you know, in, in some small respects, a little yeast at a time, you know, a little bit.
But then also as I, you know, like you said, the unlikely connections as I celebrate the Eucharist, it's not just me and Jesus, it's me and, and Michael. It's me and, and Paul being taken in each other and us becoming each other and part of each other because we are one body. You know? And, and that mysterious elements, you know, of like what it is, like it is crazy.
Like sure, AI can give us a recipe to make bread or to figure out how to make grapes into wine, but it is the human element and the relational element and, and the communal element. And the ecological element that actually have more power in making great wine than any machine
Michael Morelli: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Ever could. [00:49:00] Uh,
Michael Morelli: yeah.
Yeah. I I, oh man. Like, my mind goes in so many different directions, but I'll start with communion and then I'll, I'll go to the, the second part. Um, yeah, I, I, I don't know if I ever got it published, but I, I talk about, um, the revelatory capacities of communion, and I say like, and I, and I, I got a little bit of this, of your, your conversation with the one, I can't remember his name, the fellow about the biblical theology of wine.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yes.
Michael Morelli: Um, I was thinking about this and that I realized like the way in which your, your church community receives communion, not only discloses like the presence of Christ, but it also discloses your church's understanding of the presence of Christ. So if you know, it's, it's. Everybody gets the little, you know, plastic cups and whatever, right?
And we, we receive that in, in a more passive sense. Like we don't even have to get up [00:50:00] and walk forward. Um, and then like, what do we walk forward to? Um, or even if it's a tray that we like, pass down the side, um, like all of these things are communicating, you know, um, the status of the body, right? In the same way that people say, if you want to know the church's theology, don't just listen to the sermon or the Homi homily.
Like, look at the songs and listen to the songs that they're singing. All these are disclosing our, our status. And like, I just wanna say, and if you know anybody listening can prove me wrong, fine. But I'm like, and I, and I go to a church that, that is like this. The churches that tend to receive communion more passively tend to be types of churches that don't regularly eat together.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Michael Morelli: Right. I, I say this all the time, you know, you want, you want an indicator of church health here. Here's one. Um, during the week, do people in your congregation eat together? And when they eat together, do they all look [00:51:00] alike, talk the same, have the same background, come from the same class? Because like, eating together, I think is an indication of the health of a community and different people who wouldn't otherwise eat, eat together.
Eating together is like, now we're in Acts two territory,
Andrew Camp: right?
Michael Morelli: Right. And so I think there are holistic connections between the way in which we receive communion and the way in which we do or don't eat together. And when we do eat together, who's eating? I mean, this is, this is Paul getting mad at the Corinthian church, right.
People are sick and dying because rich people are, are having a, a, a drunken feast where they're stuffing themselves and the poor people aren't included and they're showing up starving. And that's why the body is sick. Right. Um,
Andrew Camp: but, but, but Michael, yeah, go ahead. Church growth movement told us that, you know, likeness and sameness is what's gonna cause the church to grow and to explode and to take over the world.
And, you know, come on, we, you know, we're, we're going against the grain here if you ask me to eat with people not like [00:52:00] myself. Whereas, you know,
Michael Morelli: yeah.
Andrew Camp: All, all, all my seminary education, you know, the church growth movement, hey, if you wanna grow a church, gather like, with like,
Michael Morelli: yeah.
Andrew Camp: Uh,
Michael Morelli: you know? Yeah. And, and, and I, I think that's a, that's a great response.
And I would say absolutely you can have quantity or quality, but, you know, pick one.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: Because you can't necessarily have both at the same time. And, and this drive towards accumulation and, and faster accumulation, which is very much at the heart of the, the church growth movement is, is going to drive you away from the, the, the quality connection and, and diverse connection.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: And I think we're, we're seeing the bitter fruit of that. Yeah. Um, you know, it's. Well, man, like why are all these, why are all these evangelical Christians like voting for ideal ideologues and like authoritarian people? I'm like, we were prime for this, right? Like, this is not, [00:53:00] there's like, we should be a little bit surprised about like how bad it is.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: But we also should not be surprised that like, well from the mid 20th century onwards, like people bought into this idea that bigger is better, spectacle is better. Like, um, quite frankly we would say propaganda is a great way to mobilize people.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Um, so like we were actually formed for this type of, I say we, this universal.
We Yeah. People were formed for this. Um. But if, if you prioritize quality, relationship, discipleship, um, particularly diversity, like you're, you're going to be prepared, um, for, uh, seeing some of these things for what they are. And I think this, you know, leads into what you're talking about in terms of, um, food and and beverage, like wine, right.
Um, you know, I, I, on my dad's side of the family, [00:54:00] there's, there's wine makers and, um, my dad's family ran an Italian restaurant in East Vancouver for years. And so I come from a family of restaurateurs and wine makers, and my dad and I, um, brew beer in his garage and, and that sort of thing. And, um. Yeah.
Like if you actually start to dig into the history of some of the things that are like staple food and beverage now, the more you realize that accidents, right, produce some of the things that we love now, like, my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, you, you're probably more informed on this than me, but like, Guinness beer was discovered by accident.
'cause they, like, did they, I think there was something about like, they over like overcooked some of the ingredients.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Michael Morelli: And so then they were like, well, we'll just use this for ourselves and we'll save the good, you know, um, [00:55:00] uh, barley or wheat or whatever. Uh, for, for like the customers. So, so initially it was like, this was supposed to be a bad batch 'cause it was burnt.
And then they like, you know, drank and they're like, oh.
Andrew Camp: Oh, this is the
Michael Morelli: good stuff. We, we have something here.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Right. Um, so I don't know, maybe that's just the stuff of legend, but like, you know, the, the, the accident, the experimentation, the locality of things. I mean, that, that is where, where the magic is.
Andrew Camp: Right?
Michael Morelli: And sometimes mass produced stuff will do, like sometimes, you know, just a run of the mill lager on the right day in the right place is exactly what was needed. Um, but, but most of the time I think the things that, that really resonate are things that are particular and it's qualitative. That, that it, that, um, it may not meet the efficiency and speed criteria, [00:56:00] but um, it meets another criteria and I think a better one.
Andrew Camp: Wow. Um,
Michael Morelli: I mean, I could talk about scotch. I lived in Scotland for four years in touring distilleries. I mean,
Andrew Camp: yeah.
Michael Morelli: Oh man. It's so hard not to get romantic about whiskey distilling.
Andrew Camp: Well, even just the wine making, but I think what it, what it boils down to, like you said, is this locality that like we were meant to be in a location.
We are meant to be part of a community, you know, and whether that's community, like I'm in Flagstaff, you're up in Canada, you know, my geography of Canada's horrible, so forgive me, I don't That's okay. You know, I'm, I'm a, you know, stupid America.
Michael Morelli: We're near Seattle. Vancouver's near Seattle.
Andrew Camp: Seattle. That's right.
Okay. You know, and so, but we're, we're meant to live in that particularity, you know, and, and wine and beverage and food is supposed to be meant to live in that particularity. And yes, it is easy. And I. You know, I shop at [00:57:00] Fry's, you know, I shop at Kroger, right? Like
Michael Morelli: mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Because it's convenient and like budgetary wise, like there's a lot to take in.
Like it's easy to romanticize the particularity to only go to the, you know, farmer's markets to buy local or, you know, eat what is good, you know, well raised. But like there's a lot of wrestling and nuance to do that too, right. That it assumes a level of privilege and a level of locale that not everybody has access to.
Right. You know? Yep. You and I live in winter climates where we can't get, you know, there's not fresh vegetables growing, whereas if you're in Santa Monica, the Santa Monica farmer's market's year round and there is a plethora of beauty at every farmer's market.
Michael Morelli: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's right. Because on the one hand, like we.
Uh, can talk about locality, we can talk about, you know, quality and, and just the value of it. [00:58:00] And on the other hand, um, it can be very easy to miss the privilege in that. Right, right. And, um, you're right. Like I, um, you know, I'm a theology professor. I don't, I don't make a lot of money, so it's like I, I love, you know, slow food and I, and I, and I love, you know, the artisan stuff, you know, all, all, all that.
Um, and I'd love to buy all organic food, but I, I can't afford to all the time. And I've got like, you know, a 9-year-old and a 5-year-old, and Vancouver has an insanely high cost of living.
Right.
Michael Morelli: And, you know, um, it's just, it's one of those things where, and I, and I acknowledge like the privilege that I have and even how hard it can be sometimes.
So, so there is this other, other reality that we're wrestling with is like the scale of the predicament that we're in is, [00:59:00] I, the way I realize or phrase this is like, it really sucks that we live in a world where people have to pay extra in order to consume food that doesn't hurt their bodies.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Right. Like, and, and I am, I'm kind of that person because like, I've had Crohn's disease for, um, you know, 21 years. And so it would be better for my body if I ate all organic and, you know, avoided certain things and whatever. But like the, the price tag that comes attached to that is very high and we just can't do it.
So it's like, well. Okay, this is, this is it. But then those moments that you do get, right, right. And, and, and this is the beauty of food. Like, um, it's not the price tag and it's, it's not even just like all the process that went into it. It's the people and it's the moment. Yeah. Like some of the best meals you have.
I don't know that it's necessarily like the taste. I think it's, I [01:00:00] think it's the context that really informs the taste as well. Like those, so, you know, yeah. I could, if I had the money, I'd love to buy, you know, a, a 20-year-old whiskey that's, you know, cask strength and whatever, whatever.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: But I've had blends with pals
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Right. At the right time in the right place and, and that dram. Tasted sweeter than anything I could have spent, you know, a thousand or more dollars on
Andrew Camp: for sure.
Michael Morelli: Right. So, so this is the kind of. I don't know, mercurial nature of what we're talking about. Right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah. 'cause when I have that 20-year-old scotch, or even maybe say a 16-year-old scotch, I'm less prone to actually share it with others because I want like, you know?
Michael Morelli: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, versus, you know, a, a Johnny Walker Black or whatever. Mm-hmm. Or a monkey shoulder, you know, a blend that's, that's good. You know, like, oh yeah, let's come over. Let's, let's drink, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, [01:01:00] but also getting the right people, you know, like we had some friends over on Saturday, they're part of a wine club here, and they had a chat pop and they're like, Hey, we know Claire and Andrew Love good food and good wine.
Like they'll enjoy this wine if we drink it together. So like, Hey, can we do dinner? We'll bring the wine. And so I, I cooked and so I, you know, figuring out what we wanted to have. And, you know, I made a tart filet, which was fun. Like this French peas, you know, peasant dish with just lots of gooey, stinky cheese.
Like,
Michael Morelli: oh man, dude, I love that type of French food.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. But with the chateau no. To pop, it was great. And they had some elk steaks. 'cause you know, we're in hunting country and so like we had elk steaks and tart filet and chateau no to pop. And we may have started with some burgundy because I had some bottles of burgundy from Oh man.
You know, like, again, I get privileged 'cause I get to taste and sell good wine, which means I get to drink way better wine that is above my pay grade, you know? Mm-hmm. That I should never drink, you know? And so like, again, like it's my, it's the perk of the [01:02:00] job. Yeah. But like, but like you said, it was the quality of the relationship.
And so, you know, it wasn't the, the food was great and the food was what brought us together, but it was the quality and the friendship more so than, than the food. I think we could have had a fun night if we had that chat tofu pop with pizza. Yep. You know, you know, because the quality of friendships. And we started talking about, oh, we wanna go to this restaurant in Phoenix.
It's one of the best restaurants. Like, Hey, could we do it all for, you know, in November, like, we could save up, you know? 'cause we're gonna drop way too much money on a dinner like this. Could we share it together so like the four of us could have an experience that is really fun.
Michael Morelli: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and like, even, even that, that process of saving up right, for, for that experience makes it all the more meaningful.
Andrew Camp: Yeah,
Michael Morelli: yeah. Yeah. Oh man. I wanna start talking about one of my favorite meals that I had, I was in Strassburg for my friend Jake's wedding, [01:03:00] and we went to a restaurant that was like traditional Alsatian food.
Andrew Camp: Mm.
Michael Morelli: And, um, Strassburg is this really interesting place in France 'cause it's actually been part of Germany.
Yeah. And yeah. And so it's this really interesting mix of like German and French culture. And it like, it, it, it also comes out in the food and baking. Yeah. So my friend Jake is like, Mike, you gotta order this. I'm like, sweet. So I order it and it's like, uh, like a mini Dutch oven with just all sorts of melted cheeses with um, I think it was like, I'm pretty sure it was like pig knuckles that had been, um, just kind of slow cooked
Andrew Camp: Oh gosh.
Michael Morelli: With a side of potatoes.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Yeah. And it was just like, take me out of that restaurant in a wheelbarrow.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. '
Michael Morelli: cause this is so rich,
Andrew Camp: right?
Michael Morelli: Like, it was just, it was literally like a medium sized Dutch oven filled with cheese and pork [01:04:00] and then, you know, potatoes. And I felt like I tasted that culture. Like it was just, you know, where, where else would you have this?
It was so good. Yeah. Anyway, you just mentioned French food and like my mind just went to that, so I just needed to
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Michael Morelli: Raven,
Andrew Camp: Alsatian Rieslings, you know, and wine. The wine region on Alsace just produces some beautiful rieslings and wines and you know, I, again, I drink above my pay grade. So like, just enjoying Alsation.
Rieslings are the Alsation, late Harvest Pinot Gris, you know, like, uh, anyway. Come
Michael Morelli: on.
Andrew Camp: Come on.
Michael Morelli: Yeah know, I mean, you get, you get a spoiled palate, right? Like I got a spoiled palate living in Scotland and I had, moving back to Canada, had to lower my standards 'cause like, you know, um, I'd go to Costco, which had an alcohol section.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: So I'd always swing by and be like, Lagavulin 16 for 40 quid. 40, 40 British pounds. Which is like, at that [01:05:00] time it would've been $80 Canadian.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Right now. You know, that would go for a hundred thirty, a hundred forty, a hundred fifty.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Right.
Michael Morelli: I got so spoiled, like,
Andrew Camp: right.
Michael Morelli: And so now I, I've really had to lower my standards, but part of the fun is like finding affordable stuff that tastes amazing.
That should be more expensive than it actually is.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Michael Morelli: So we have bougie palettes, Andrew. We can't help ourselves.
We
Andrew Camp: can, we can't. No. But we still enjoy the table course. Like it still, course it's not about the bougie food per se. It
Michael Morelli: sometimes is.
Andrew Camp: Is it? Sometimes is. No, it's, but not always, because with Super Bowl, I was drinking bougie beer because if I'm gonna drink beer, I want something really well made and handcrafted.
And I have a. A beer guy that just has the best selection and the unique selection. And I ask him, I'm like, Hey, what should I drink? And he's like, here, here, here. And I'm like, great. Done. Oh, yep.
Michael Morelli: Those are great friends to have.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Michael Morelli: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yep. Well, I think we could keep going forever and ever and on into eternity talking about food and
Michael Morelli: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: All sorts of things. But [01:06:00] I know for the interest of time and other places, um, we need to, to wrap up. Um, so some fun questions to wrap up. Oh,
Michael Morelli: okay.
Andrew Camp: What's one food you refuse to eat?
Michael Morelli: Um, I, it's not because like I myself am opposed to it, but I literally cannot eat butter nut squash without throwing up. Like, I, like, I, I'm not like, I don't go into, um, anaphylactic shock.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: I just like, I get immediately unwell.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Michael Morelli: And I just throw up. Okay. And at, at one time I got a new job and one of my bosses invited me over to his family's for dinner. And his wife very kindly made butternut squash ravioli.
Andrew Camp: Oh gosh.
Michael Morelli: I did not have the heart to turn that down.
Andrew Camp: No,
Michael Morelli: because it's like, is he, is he picky?
I didn't want them to think I was picky. And I don't actually have, like, it's not a, it's not like it's not gonna kill me.
Andrew Camp: No.
Michael Morelli: It's just gonna make me really sick. [01:07:00] Yeah. So I ate all that ravioli and then the kids were like, let's go to Menchies for ice cream. Do you have Menchies in the States?
Andrew Camp: No.
Michael Morelli: Oh.
It's kind of like build your own sundae, but fancier.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: And I'm actually a bit lactose intolerant, so I was like, let's go. And like, I'm like, you put me in front of a tap of ice cream with choice of fixins, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go like, you take this horse to that ice cream water, it's going to, it's gonna drink.
Andrew Camp: Yep,
Michael Morelli: for sure. Uh, so driving home after that day, I made a pact with myself in the car that if I could make it home. Without throwing up in the car, then, then, then that would be a win
Andrew Camp: for sure.
Michael Morelli: So, okay. Didn't expect that answer, did you?
Andrew Camp: No, no. It was great. I love it. Um, so the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?
You know, obviously we just heard about this Alsatian cheese and pork dish, but,
Michael Morelli: oh, yeah. [01:08:00] Um, best things I've eaten. Um, I think there were a lot of things, but I'll say, um, my Nona, which is Italian for grandma, um, when we would spend time with her, um, and we'd stay at her house. I'd wake up in the morning and there was a certain smell that if I smelled that I knew we were gonna have an amazing meal that night.
So it was like, it was typically like olive oil. It. Garlic, onions, probably ground beef, um, and, and tomatoes. And it was a mixture of some or all of those things that if, if I selt that I knew something good was, was coming. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, whether that was like hand-rolled and nichi, um, you know, with, with red sauce or like veal, scallopini, um, [01:09:00] lasagna, uh, panzerotti, which is like what pizza pockets try to be, but never will be.
Um, yeah, it's this, this, those ones are probably the most memorable meals. And then a version of that when I visited, you know, family in Southeast Italy and, uh, there were a few meals there. Pans Roddy, um, is like probably some of the top, top ones. Um, but there's also, you know, friends that. My wife and I have where we'll save up and every year just before the fall comes back, we'll, we'll go to, to different re restaurants and like, oh man, we went to a Peruvian restaurant in Vancouver and we had ceviche.
Andrew Camp: Oh yes.
Michael Morelli: And octopus. Come on, Bino.
Andrew Camp: Yes. Preach.
Michael Morelli: And like, there was like a mezcal cocktail that I had with it.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Michael Morelli: And oh man, it was great. Like Afghan food, so Yeah. Yeah. I [01:10:00] mean, there's so many, but, but my note is probably his top.
Andrew Camp: See your nono ruined you, you know, it's her fault you have
Michael Morelli: Yeah, she did. You know, but the, the funny thing is too, is like, you know, maybe this is a good place to end.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: Is one of the things that I learned from her is that like there's no real set recipe.
Andrew Camp: No.
Michael Morelli: It's only like the best sauces are made over a day and, and there are approximations.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: And, uh, even actually when, when we were in Italy, our family was like, oh, you know, make us something North American. So my brother and I decided to, to do like pancakes and waffles.
So we got all the ingredients and then we're like, where are your measuring cups? And they're like, what are measuring cups? Like measuring cups?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: You know, the things you used to measure how much you put in. Like, we don't have those
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: We don't use those for cooking.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Michael Morelli: And so we actually found a baby bottle that helped us measure the ingredients, but it, it was like, [01:11:00] yeah, in a way, like my Nona ruined me for my palate, but also like taught me so much about how to do food.
'cause I love to cook and at one point I want to be a chef, but I think it's better I turned out a theologian.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: But like that ethos has just like formed me from the ground up. So yeah.
Andrew Camp: Well, thank you Michael. Always enjoy.
Michael Morelli: Thank you. Oh, this was great. This was so fun. I'm kind of jealous actually, of your podcast.
I have like podcast envy. 'cause you get to talk about these things all the time.
Andrew Camp: I know,
Michael Morelli: but it makes, I mean, I like talking about what I talk about, but Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Michael Morelli: You
Andrew Camp: know, it's, you know, we each do its own passions and, you know, someday hopefully we all share a great meal together and
Michael Morelli: Amen.
Andrew Camp: Just, yeah. If people are interested in learning more about your work, where, where can they find you?
Michael Morelli: Oh yeah, thank you. Um, yeah, I have a podcast called personalist Manifestos. We're on Substack. Um, it's just personalist manifestos.substack.com. Um, I'm on [01:12:00] Instagram. Um, I do theology stuff and also I tell jokes. Mm-hmm. A lot of 'em are dad jokes. It's just mch marelli@gmail.com or just mch marelli. I don't know why I said Gmail.
Um, those are probably the prime points. You can, you can find out about me. Yeah,
Andrew Camp: for sure. And maybe we'll do a podcast someday on the tortures of Parent drop off.
Michael Morelli: Oh, and how it
Andrew Camp: brings out the hell of everybody.
Michael Morelli: Yes. Yeah. Yes. I, I'm down. Let's do it. Okay.
Andrew Camp: Alright.
Michael Morelli: Okay. Thank you.
Andrew Camp: Alright. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.
Until next time, bye.