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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01.436)
I'm excited for our conversation today because I want to discuss, I guess my hot take about the idea that Trump wants to take over Greenland. And I just want to say, I think we'd all be a whole lot better if Greenland would take over us. It's owned by Denmark and I can't wait to talk about why I hope it goes the other way. And your hot take for the day.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:07.271)
No.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:22.508)
Yeah. My hot take is I think the announcement about all the meta products letting go of their fact checking might be a good idea.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:39.794)
I'm very interested in that. Okay. Well, if it's okay, we'll start with some of the I mean, these are both things that are in the news as we talk This will come out just a few days after we talk I'm sure there'll be a whole host of new exciting things by then but I still think these are things people will be talking about and So Trump just had a I can't believe I'm saying his name We I thought we agreed we wouldn't I need to remember what we were gonna say instead Cheeto Donald Trump
Taina Brown she/hers (00:56.141)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:08.466)
That guy anyway held a press conference and refused to say that he wouldn't use force to take Greenland and the Panama Canal and is still holding on to this idea that Canada could become our 51st state, which is the most nonsensical thing I've ever heard. First of all, it's bigger than I mean, just like the idea of it being a single state like is wild and
Taina Brown she/hers (01:30.861)
It's huge!
It's huge, huge!
Becky Mollenkamp (01:36.402)
It's huge. It's the biggest ever. I can't do a Trump impersonation. Thank God. I don't even want it. I mean, really, gives me the heebie-jeebies, heebie-jeebies even thinking about him. But I specifically was thinking about the Greenland comment, because I'll be honest, one thing that this has done for me is taught me who owns Greenland, because honestly, I didn't know it wasn't its own autonomous nation. And it sort of is, but it's still owned by, it's kind of like Canada's relationship with Britain and the monarchy. I think it's a similar sort of situation with Greenland, which
Taina Brown she/hers (02:03.453)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:05.956)
It's basically got its own government, everything, but it is owned by Denmark, which goes back to colonialism to begin with, right? Like obviously Denmark invaded at some point and I have not done enough thorough research to know how far back that goes. But at some point they invaded, took over this land, right? In the same way that we've done here. And so the idea that we would be taking it over is just repeating its history, but it's, the part that gets me is.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:13.322)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:30.323)
Mm-hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (02:35.194)
If you do any research about Denmark, it is a much better place than America in so many ways. exactly, I think they're known as the happiest country in the world. They have, obviously, universal health care and so many things that we don't have. It's super clean. They care a lot about the environment. And so they were.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:43.788)
Yeah, it's one of the happiest countries. Like, I'm not happy. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:02.066)
one of the I think they were the first country to legalize same sex marriage back in 89 like long before we ever did here. And they're apparently something else I thought was interesting is they have something called Jantaloven and I'm sure I'm butchering because I don't speak the language but and it's basically a big part of the culture there and it means that no one is better than the other. So it's very different.
cultural experience that I'm sure to some degree exists in Greenland as well, although I'm sure it has its own very much unique culture. But the whole thing for me is like, could we maybe ask Denmark to take over the US instead of us taking over Greenland? I am just sickened by the whole thing. The idea that in my lifetime, at least in my aware adult lifetime, I could be wrong that there could be, I mean,
Taina Brown she/hers (03:29.001)
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:46.633)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:55.676)
Puerto Rico is probably an exception to this, where that may have happened in my lifetime. But as far as I know, we haven't done much expansion. We haven't done this colonial, do we come over and take over land thing in my lifetime? And I know it's very much clearly a part and parcel part of American history. mean, America is part of the great colonial experience, experiment. But it feels weird. It feels so regressive.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:17.6)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:22.884)
so deeply regressive to be having these kinds of conversations and of taking over autonomous, you know, parts of the world and to have so many people like to have the news media covering it as if it's a real conversation instead of it being like, I just don't understand how the conversation isn't. Holy shit, this man is crazy. Like that's what I feel like the news should be instead of it's like being handled like, yeah, we just have this
Taina Brown she/hers (04:24.511)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:40.306)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:52.156)
world leader talking about like, taking over Greenland or making Canada the 51st state. So I'm just in this place of shock and he hasn't even taken office yet. what is, and by the way, I'm really not watching much news, but I, it's hard to escape the, this news.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:03.249)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:09.395)
It's very hard to escape. Yeah. And we watch local morning news, but you know, they cover national things as well. So yeah, I think the media over the past several years, I think since probably COVID has just really shown us.
that they really just don't care about the public. And I kind of knew this. I've known this for a long time, how media is owned and how it operates. There's a very small handful of conglomerates that own most of the media that we consume that includes news and entertainment. There's maybe the big five or the big six. And so...
their interests, CNN, MSNBC, Fox, CBS, their interest is to serve those five or six conglomerates, Like anchors, regardless of what their personal values might be or their personal opinions, right? Everything is highly scripted. I've actually been to Denmark. It was a long time
Becky Mollenkamp (06:25.842)
Have you been to Greenland?
Taina Brown she/hers (06:28.87)
I haven't been to Greenland. I know that there's still a lot of like indigenous people in Greenland. Like it's mostly inhabited by the indigenous population there. I went to Denmark in, God, what year was that? Maybe 2005? 2004, 2005? And it was my first time in Europe. And it...
Completely. This was a missions trip when I was still very much in my little evangelical Christian bubble. because of the culture there, I had been on other missions trips before, but because of the culture in Denmark, basically what we did was hang out in bars and cafes.
the entire time and just like talk to people and just like chill. it was my first time experiencing like a culture that was like free of like the tentacles of like American democracy and capitalism. so, and one of the things that just like really shook me was how clean it was.
Education was free, healthcare was free, like the taxes I think are like 40, 45 percent. But like you don't have to pay for shit outside of just your living expenses. Like, I don't remember transportation, like public transportation was free, the public transportation, like the infrastructure was really, really amenable to like to people. There were bike lanes, like this was the first time I'd ever seen a bike lane.
before bike lanes were a thing in most places in the US. And so I think coming back from that, I was like, whoa, there's like a different way to do things than how we typically do things here in the States. And so it was, I would say it was like, it planted the seeds, you know, of like, of me waking up and coming out of that bubble.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:52.666)
They're like, yeah, it's a socialist country. they said that it was a bad thing before we went. And then we went, and I was like, this doesn't seem so bad. Right. I was like, wait, you get to go to college for free? You have free health care?
Becky Mollenkamp (09:01.241)
Right, if this is socialism, sign me up.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:08.418)
People always argue about the tax rates and yes, they're double or more what we pay. But what they get for that is more than double what we get. And if you actually look at what the average American saves because of that, it's so worth it because so much of that tax, the taxes are being paid by the ultra wealthy and they don't even have the ultra wealthy like we do because of that.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:15.5)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:34.209)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:35.942)
But that is what helps to make it. And it's about it goes back to that there that whatever I called it jar, Janta Lovin, the idea that no one is better than the other, because it's this idea that we all contribute for all of us. I was just talking to my son about this because he asked me the other night, it was last night, he asked me, what are taxes, mom? And I explained what taxes were. And my way of explaining it was very much that it is that it is about the collective good and it is about all of us saying I contribute.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:54.017)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:05.764)
so that everyone can have access to things, right? And so that's not just some of us. And that is very much that spirit of, to me, that's what socialism is about. It's about how do we take care of the collective good instead of it just being, how do I get more of mine? But the problem is this American dream, quote unquote, is so instilled in us, so young. And that's what I'm trying to combat with these conversations with my son. I'm up against it with the world around me. But my hope is that I can help offset some of that messaging. But it
get so drilled in us that we hold on to and we're made to hold on to this belief that, yeah, I hear you. Like it's the collective good and I'll probably never be that wealthy person. So having them pay more to help all of us makes a lot of sense. But maybe I could be that person. And if I am, then I should get to hold on to all of it. And so we hurt ourselves for this like future version of ourselves that is not gonna happen.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:51.233)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:55.829)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:01.522)
for 99.9999 % of us. The people that it does happen to are almost always people who have a great deal of familial privilege, right, that it's handed to them. And the others that don't are such outliers that it is so extremely rare that it is like, it's your chances of being hit by lightning, right? And most of us take that chance of being hit by lightning more seriously than we do this idea that like, yeah, we'll never become a.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:04.676)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:21.152)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:25.868)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:28.658)
billionaire. We just keep believing and we're made to believe. that's what the lottery is all about. So yeah, I just wanted to quickly say because you mentioned and I looked it up really quickly while you were talking that 88 % of Greenland's population, which by the way, their population, the entire country is only 55, 60,000 people. it's exactly, but 88 % of that population is the Greenlandic Inuit, which are the
Taina Brown she/hers (11:33.17)
Yeah. Yeah, it's mostly just remote land, like ice. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:56.262)
the indigenous folks of that region. And the second language is actually Danish. The official language of Greenland is the Inuit language there. And I can't say it, so I won't even try. Why are we talking about Greenland? Like, feels so out of the blue if you don't know much about geopolitics and the way the globe actually looks, which by the way, we get a distorted version of what our globe looks like. So most people don't realize where Greenland is or what its position is about.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:19.547)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:25.254)
But why are we talking about Greenland and Canada? Like what? Oil. Oil. If you know anything about where they're located, it's two things. Oil and proximity to Russia, right? And those things are very strategic. There's reasons we're talking about those two places and nothing else other than the Panama Canal. And why are we talking about that? Trade, right? And oil and moving that oil around. So this is not like out of the blue is, even though it sounds, I think for a lot of people, it sounds so random, like Greenland.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:29.853)
Yep. Yep.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:34.837)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:44.465)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:53.594)
I don't even think about green light. It's got 60,000 people. Who cares? It's very strategic. And all of this comes back to, as everything does with capitalism and colonialism, wealth, power. This is about how do we make America that global power that, let's be honest, we're losing ground to it. I'm right, China and Russia, especially China. So anyway, I think it's very interesting that this is coming up. And I hope.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:53.916)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:00.665)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:14.81)
in other places, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:23.706)
If nothing else, the average American maybe will learn a little more about those things. But the problem is, again, going back to the mainstream media and how it's failing us, I, again, I'm not watching a lot of news. So maybe these conversations are happening, but I don't get the impression that they are doing their job of educating people about why this is coming up. It's more just covering the spectacle of it versus, hey, average American who probably doesn't know, hasn't learned, not even, I don't want to put on the average American.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:44.083)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:52.486)
who has not been taught about geopolitics and land where things are and has been given this distorted view of America's size in the world and all of it. They don't know these things. And the media is not doing a good job, as far as I can tell, of educating people about why this conversation is probably happening. Instead, it's more like the, look at this, isn't this wild? Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:53.786)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:13.882)
The political theater, yeah. yeah. Yeah, I mean, and you know, going back to the whole taxes conversation, like, sure, we don't pay 40, 45 % in taxes here in the US, but our taxes are still supposed to go towards things like infrastructure, things that are supposed to benefit the general public and they don't, right? So, right, so it doesn't even matter.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:36.59)
They go towards our defense, which, and when I say defense, I mean, it goes towards private organizations. Yeah. Which is not even actually mostly government military spending. It's. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:42.202)
Military spending, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of it's privatized. Yeah, so it's like, well, we pay lower taxes, but we're still not getting anything out of it. Like the whole point of taxation is supposed to be to benefit the general public. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:59.302)
Yeah, another time I get in the Department of Education. And that is one of the big reasons that I think many of us are like, yeah, I'll pay my taxes so that people can have public school for free. And now it's like, let's just get rid of the Department of Education. But don't dare talk about the Department of Defense, which takes up the majority of our budget and our taxes, to go to things like taking over Greenland.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:07.949)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:13.112)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:18.859)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's wild. It's wild. That was on TikTok last night and there's...
Becky Mollenkamp (15:25.574)
did you see that woman from Canada? The woman from Canada? no, okay, go ahead. You tell yours and then I'll talk about TikTok.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:27.961)
The what? No. No, I follow this. I forgot her name or their name. I don't know what their pronouns are. Let's see if I can look it up real quick. Good.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:40.678)
Well, while you do that, I'll mention mine really quick. My husband shared with me and she's someone in the government of Canada. And I apologize that I don't know because it didn't say on the TikTok who she was, but she was on there talking, basically lecturing Donald Trump about like, you want to take over Canada? Okay, let's have this conversation. And she was like, first of all, I think you need to learn a little bit about how Canada works because he was talking about how they need to elect a new prime minister. She's like, we don't elect a prime minister here. We elect parliament.
who chooses a prime minister. Maybe if you ever learned anything about how the government works, you would know this. Our system is not the same as America because we aren't America and we don't wanna be America. And then she was like, and speaking of, know, California and Oregon and Washington, maybe we should have the conversation about them joining Canada. Maybe they'd be interested in that. She said, like, maybe we could do you a favor and help get rid of some of those blue states that don't vote for you anyway. We already have all sorts of strategic relationships with trade relationships.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:10.538)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:34.478)
with those parts of your country. and Vermont, we'd happily take Vermont, take Bernie Sanders and bring him on board and give him citizenship. New Hampshire, Maine, we'd love that. So let's have the conversation if you want to have the conversation. Like we're happy to bring them and instead of us becoming the 51st state, how about we start to bring them in as as our 11th, 12th, 14th provinces? And then she was like, all joking aside, because I mean, she was like, we're not countering this seriously with that. But like, shut the hell up.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:38.104)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:03.632)
Basically, she was like, we are a proud country, a country, not a state. We are a proud country with a proud culture. We function differently. She talked about, we have free universal healthcare. Maybe your people want to come join us to get the healthcare, to have safe streets because we have strict gun laws that your people are too afraid to pass. She's talking about all these things that they offer. It was really well done. And the reminder that, yeah, Canada is a sovereign nation that...
Taina Brown she/hers (17:04.074)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:18.583)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:28.959)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:31.086)
is that plans to say so. All right. And so anyway, I'll try to find that one too and share it in the show notes if anyone wants to watch that TikTok because it was really great. What was yours? Go ahead.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:33.159)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:39.86)
Yeah. Yeah. well, just real quick. was just thinking like with Justin Trudeau's resignation, like the timing of that, I think, is really suspect. And so it's. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:45.585)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:51.888)
Well, and it's scary because they, mean, Canada has a similar, it's happening all over the globe. So it's not just here, this move towards more autocratic, you know, states and Canada has similar things happening there. It's a smaller degree than we have here where I think it's 30 to 40 % of our country is in favor of this crap that's happening, which is still by the way, the minority. I know we're giving them all this credence, but this is the minority of people that have taken over and they are
Taina Brown she/hers (18:02.004)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:10.908)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:16.487)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:21.606)
very smartly and strategically done that through the courts and they've taken over in so many ways that now the minority is allowed to rule. But in Canada, it's a much smaller minority, but it's a vocal minority and it's happening there too. And this is happening a lot of places. So I think, you know, his departure is scary. We'll see what happens.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:34.377)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anytime there's like a vacuum and like power like that, like it's just like, it's going to happen. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:45.458)
Mm hmm. Something's gonna fill it. So what? Right? Yeah. But then again, Mexico, you know, their most recent election, they've brought on somebody who's much more progressive and she's standing up and fighting back against Trump and saying the same sorts of things that Canada is right now. We'll see how what happens with Canada, but around like this tariffs issue and like, you're going to tear us? Well, watch out, because I think Americans don't realize like, hey, you love those avocados? You better watch out. You love your produce? Good luck. Like, it's
Taina Brown she/hers (19:02.557)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:10.215)
Bye!
Becky Mollenkamp (19:14.682)
This is very scary in a way of what's like all of it right now is still this political theater, but in 10 days, this man is actually going to be in office. And I'm so afraid of what it means. But OK, so go ahead with your your tick tock. I'm interested to hear.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:22.782)
Yeah.
Yeah. So it's under the desk news. I don't know.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:31.126)
Mm. I believe that person's pronouns are they them. But I could be wrong, but I believe that's correct.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:36.733)
Okay. Okay. I don't know their, their like given name. Yeah, I'm looking at their profile and it's, it's not on there. Maybe, maybe, maybe they, they keep it somewhat private, but they were invited to be on NPR weekend edition to talk about like mainstream news versus like
Becky Mollenkamp (19:44.198)
I don't either and I should because I follow them too on social media. Maybe they don't really share their name, I don't know.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:00.21)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:04.601)
what mainstream news is calling newsfluencers, like on social media. basically, they were saying like they will never accept what they implied that, at least from what I understood, they were implying that they probably would never accept another invitation from NPR because the entire interview they were trying to discredit them and the work that they do.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:10.95)
None of the best news is a newsfluencer for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:31.986)
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:34.802)
And talking about what are you going to do when the TikTok ban happens and like, and then they chopped up the interview for like the final thing to like take with a lot of what they had said out of context. so, and luckily,
Becky Mollenkamp (20:42.098)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:52.516)
And NPR used to be a source that I trusted years ago, but it's been the same devolution of equality.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:56.656)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. so I think, you know, I think when it comes to like mainstream news, like NPR, I don't think is part of any of the conglomerates. They might get some of their funding, you know, from them. And that's that's a problem. But I think also what we're seeing is like any kind of mainstream news, like trying to discredit, like basically.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:14.032)
That's the problem, right? Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:31.193)
the people who are reporting for themselves, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (21:33.702)
Yeah, there's two things going on there, right? One is the fear of being iced out of this new administration, which is so sad, but we see this happening so many places where they're so afraid that if they speak ill, if they actually challenge anything, they'll be iced out. And not because that fear is valid. They likely will be, right? Because we've seen that Trump is retaliatory in that way. And there's even this fear now, too, I think that many journalists have of of jail time that seems very real.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:39.012)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:59.556)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:00.434)
Cash Patel becomes part of the FBI, know, head of FBI, who knows what's gonna happen. So that piece, and then like you said, this part of like, well, we don't wanna lose our power as our authority as the news source, right? Because to all these other people, and I, there's this part of me that gets it as a former journalist whose background was journalism and all of that. Like I have two degrees in journalism. I spent my first part of my career in journalism. And there is a part of me that.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:09.998)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:25.338)
understands this pushback. Because I remember when blogging started, I was like, this is ruining journalism. In some ways, it did. However, the democratization of media, are pros and cons, just like there are to media as it existed before. Without that democratization, the pros of it is the media had more funding, more capacity to do deep research, to actually do hard work and find things out.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:38.819)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:53.596)
but was also really subject to influence by the powers that be with money, right? So there's the pros and cons there. And there's the pros and cons of like podcasters having, know, the average American having a voice. One is we have alternatives. We have other people who can speak truth to power. Anyone can now speak truth to power. There is more availability for anyone to have a voice and use it. And
Taina Brown she/hers (22:59.502)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:11.086)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:14.948)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:20.752)
They don't have the budgets to do the deep research. They're often relying on information they're finding in random places that may or may not be truthful. And there's no way to know necessarily for the average consumer is what I'm listening to valid. Is there actual sources for this? Who are those sources? It could be anyone. I mean, look at us. Anyone can say anything. So there's pros and cons to all of it. Right now, though, given the state of the world,
Taina Brown she/hers (23:32.361)
Is it? Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:40.748)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:46.374)
I'm leaning more towards, I'm glad that we have this democratization of media at this time, because I am at a place, and this is somebody who really believes in journalism, right? Like this is my, what I thought would be my life. I have such a lack of trust in mainstream media at this point, for a whole host of reasons, that I'm so grateful for places like The Majority Report, Midas Touch, know, Brian Tyler Cohen.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:51.391)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:01.185)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:05.259)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:16.146)
I'm just trying to think of some David Pakman, these places that I'm listening to that are providing alternatives to that mainstream media to make sure that these conversations like, hey, by the way, did you realize that Greenland's strategic oil space, right? That's why this conversation is happening. It's not just like those conversations aren't happening elsewhere. and I need that context. So I don't know. It's tough because I'm grateful for that. Scared that we're at that place and also understand.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:17.229)
No.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:30.58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:36.15)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:43.602)
That means that people are also listening to the likes of...
know, what's face, Tucker Carlson and what's that little, yeah, whatever, you know, all of the, I try not to listen to the right, but there are also as many of those voices that are out there that are providing a different set of contexts that I see as coming through a filter of lies, right? And there would be people on the right who would say the same thing about many of left-wing media. So it's tough. It's both.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:51.008)
Mm hmm. Joe Rogan and. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:06.902)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:13.964)
It is, it is. And I think one thing to remember is that like the media that most of us grew up with is not the same landscape of media as today, because between what we grew up with and what we have today, there has been a lot of deregulation, which has contributed to the conglomerates. And so growing up, there might have been more like
news anchors and journalists might have been more comfortable or might have had more permission and more leeway to like critique and to actually provide an analysis and really inform the public. Whereas today it really is just about, you know, the narrative that the majority of the conglomerates are trying to push. And so it's a really
really clear example of if you want to control the public, you have to control the information that the public gets. Like it makes me think of like 1984 and Fahrenheit 451, like all those like post dystopian, post apocalyptic dystopian novels. It's like, if you control what people read and watch and listen to,
Becky Mollenkamp (26:15.302)
Yeah. And there's
Taina Brown she/hers (26:30.769)
You can basically control how they respond to certain things and who they're going to vote for and what they're going to believe.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:39.214)
We see that happening right with that I I don't think Trump would be elected if it weren't for that and he for all of his faults which of which there are many in fact I think almost only but. The place I give him credit if that's the right word is that he understands that he understands the power of media of of information of attention the attention economy and he's used that to his advantage which is disgusting but there is a reason why for.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:43.283)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:56.36)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:02.878)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:07.654)
hundreds of years before America was even a country, the term fourth estate existed. And that there is a reason that the protection of freedom of speech is the first protection in our constitution, right? Because our founding fathers and all through history, people have known those. And as much as I don't love the American experiment and how it began, the founding fathers were revolutionaries, right? And not the way we would show up as revolutionaries now.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:20.124)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:27.4)
Yeah, but for their time
Becky Mollenkamp (27:36.54)
But for their time and for what it was, and we still have to remember that they were revolutionaries. These were people who were acting against the state as it existed, right? They were acting against the government that they knew and fighting and saying, we want to start something different. We don't like the way that this is the way this government rules us, right? And we want to start something different that was meant to be a more free, not by our definitions now, but at the time, a much more free experience, especially around this freedom of being able to express your own religion.
But those founding fathers who were revolutionaries and revolutionaries throughout time have known what you said, that information matters, that it is important.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:14.411)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:15.202)
that it must be protected. The ability to be free thinking has to be protected. That is why it was the first thing they put into the constitution, right? That is why we have called the media the fourth state. It has been considered the fourth branch of government from the beginning of time, especially the beginning of America, right? But even before America and Britain, they were using that term fourth estate to talk about the media. It has long been considered as equally important as the judiciary, you know, the...
Taina Brown she/hers (28:23.961)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:34.779)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:43.162)
the Congress and the presidency, that fourth estate has been there for a reason. And I think my belief as somebody who studied journalism is that founding fathers by putting that freedom of speech in the Constitution is the very first thing we're saying the media is as important as these other three branches. It may not be a formal part of the government because it shouldn't be. It needs to be independent. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose. But we are here clearly saying we see it as equally important.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:55.462)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:11.44)
And that has gotten lost over time. And obviously, money corrupts, and money has corrupted media. So it's sad. But this, think, is a really great segue into what you were going to, your hot take. Because I'm very interested now, after all of this conversation about media, how you're going to tell me that the end of fact checking with meta is a good thing. I'm hoping it's the reason I am thinking you might be thinking it. But we'll see. I'm super excited to hear.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:11.472)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:17.21)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:21.955)
Yeah.
Hahaha
Taina Brown she/hers (29:31.311)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (29:35.001)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, what it boils down to is we shouldn't be relying on an organization or a company like Metta to fact check for us. Because one, they haven't been doing a good job anyway. All the fact checking that they've been doing has still been to serve their own interests, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (29:53.778)
Clearly, they helped get Trump elected.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:56.447)
Right, right. So I think, you know...
Taina Brown she/hers (30:03.555)
I think it's a good thing in that like it's pushing us to really rely on ourselves and our communities to like understand what's really happening in the world around us. And I think as a people we've become too reliant on oligarchs and major corporations to do the work for us. And that has contributed to a lack of critical thinking.
And so do I think the outcomes are all going to be good? No, absolutely not. I think some of the outcomes are going to be worse for some people. I think for people who don't know or don't care to do their own research and to do their own critical thinking, they're just going to fall deeper into some void of truth.
some rabbit hole that is void of truth, some black hole of misinformation and disinformation. But I think that's also a necessary part of the rest of us just like really waking up, right? Like I don't think change happens peacefully. And I'm not advocating for violence. Like I'm not saying we need to go out into the streets with our pitchforks and whatnot.
But I think also we need to remember that like the act of intentionally producing misinformation or disinformation and call it fact checking is a violent act upon the American public. And there's so much, there's so many different types of violence that we are forced to deal with every day.
that.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:06.143)
this is going to shake things up in a way that is necessary. Like, I don't think change comes without some kind of shake up. And this is a shake up for sure, because so many people rely on social media for, you know, not just entertainment, but for information and social media. Aside from, you know, the newsfluencers like Under the Desk, right?
who I wouldn't even call them newsfluenters, right? Like I would call them like citizen journalists. Like that term has been around for decades for a reason, right? So like, why are we trying to make it cutesy by calling them newsfluenters? They're citizen journalists, right? Like there are, yeah, yeah. There are like, like in Atlanta, there's one of the nonprofits or like startups that I worked with for a little while was
Becky Mollenkamp (32:51.878)
I would just call them journalists.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:07.935)
a local news organization that was basically training citizens, like citizens of Atlanta on how to do their own news research and report on what was happening in their communities. And so this idea of it just being like this cutesy news influencer, right? I feel like that kind of, oh, it's the story I'm looking for. It's gatekeeping, yeah, for sure. And it devalues the work that a lot of people.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:28.626)
Well, it's gatekeeping, I think.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:34.184)
doing so but aside from that like
There are influencers who pretend to be journalists, right? Who cosplay as journalists, who cosplay as people who are trying to give you information. And I think we have to remember, social media, while it can be useful, like, that should be the start of our news journey. It should not be the end of our news journey. It should not be the end of where we get our information, right? Like...
cite your fucking sources. What's the peer review look like? Who else is reporting on this? Who else is talking about this and how are they talking about it? so I think it's a good thing. Again, I don't think all of the outcomes are going to be good, but I think it's a shakeup that a lot that the American public needs.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:26.244)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:32.806)
Well, what you're talking about is media literacy, which I really believe needs to be taught in school and is not. Mm-hmm. And that doesn't happen. And it's one of those soft skills, quote unquote, know, emotional social learning that they're, you know, the right ones to get rid of, obviously, and for a reason, right? If we reduce people's capacity to be critical thinkers, they are far more likely to believe whatever we tell them. This is all part of the same system, right? I wanted to quickly mention, because you talked about violent revolution or violence.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:35.624)
Yes. Critical media literacy.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:44.605)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:55.443)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:01.82)
happening. And I always think of this quote from JFK, who is, who was part of the system, right? This is not like he was a, I don't think anyone would consider JFK a revolutionary by any means, right? But he said, and I think so, this quote to me just sticks is so poignant and so spot on. And it feels like now, he said, those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:18.717)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:31.342)
And that's what's happening, right? The more that you, the more barriers and blocks and not, and by design are putting blocks in place to make it impossible to have peaceful revolution. What do you think the inevitable outcome of that is? And I feel like we're seeing that and I'm not somebody who's either proposing for violence. Of course not. And I feel like sadly that is where we're heading, right? Because it is everything that would make it possible to have.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:56.091)
Thank
Becky Mollenkamp (35:59.666)
peaceful revolution is being blocked. Let me just look at what they're doing with elections laws right now in North Carolina, blocking the election of a Supreme Court justice who was elected by the people and stepping in and just basically saying, no, we're not gonna let that happen. And so taking away people's voice. So as that happens, what do we think is gonna happen? My thoughts on meta quickly. Initially, my thought is, of course, this is horrible.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:18.87)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:27.814)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:28.338)
But the upsides I see, I totally appreciate what you're saying. And I think that that's true. And I have noticed more folks saying, I need to leave Meta products and not just saying it and doing it. I, the number of people I'm seeing who are deactivating or, you know, making their account, putting just not using their accounts. I did it right before the end of the year before this news. And so this news made me feel even better about that decision. And I'm seeing more people doing it saying I've either
Taina Brown she/hers (36:38.62)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:51.954)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:55.834)
shut my accounts down or just deactivated or left them, but no new sharing. That's where I'm at just because I don't want anyone to take my name and then use it, because that scares me. So I continue to hold my names, but I'm not using those platforms. I haven't been, I don't even get on Instagram, which is so nice. I haven't looked at threads in a month or two now. I've been off Facebook anyway, and I've, I had unfriended everyone. The only thing I've used now in the last month was
Taina Brown she/hers (37:19.475)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:24.228)
some Christmas shopping on Marketplace, but I haven't been on it since the New Year. I haven't been watching mainstream media. And I got to tell you, it feels really good. I'm not any less informed. In fact, I think I might be better informed because I am listening to alternative news sources. And I would say alternative journalists. I still think they're journalists. The people I'm listening to are people who are talking about where they're getting their information, who are sharing the context, who are talking about, you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (37:32.887)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (37:51.334)
who the sources are behind this and helping to share why other news may not be valid. So I am still getting information. I'm just not engaging with mainstream media anymore. Like there's a part of me that misses Rachel Maddow, but honestly, no, I'm pretty good. I'm pretty good with the sources of information I'm getting. I'm happy to have left Metta. I do hope this influences more people to do the same. If nothing else, I hope that if people hear the news, it makes them at least think, hmm, what does that mean about the information I'm seeing? Sadly, I think there are many folks
Taina Brown she/hers (37:59.706)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:04.174)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:17.903)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:21.212)
for whom it won't make a difference. There are some people in my family I can specifically think about who just sit and watch Fox News all day and don't understand that it's not news. My husband was having a conversation with a relative last night about that. He's like, you know that this is entertainment, not news, right? Like they have had to declare themselves as an entertainment channel. They've been sued to high heaven for pretending to be news. So maybe it gets people thinking, some of them won't, but I do hope maybe it helps create a little dialogue around it.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:26.978)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:33.464)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:46.698)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just, want to just give people who are listening like a few tools, because we, you know, we talked about the need for like critical media literacy. And if you are unfamiliar with that, with that term, or what that means, basically, it's like having an analysis of the media that you consume, like understanding where it's coming from and why it's being shown the way that it is. And I think
if you want to engage with media in that way. There are some questions that you can ask. Obviously, you can Google it and you can find what the main questions are that you can engage with to better understand the media that you're consuming and to have that critical media literacy. A few of the questions are like, who is putting this together? Who benefits from this story? Who doesn't benefit from the story?
Who is this giving power to? Who is this taking power away from? And so those are some questions that you can think about as you're consuming not just mainstream news media, but also different types of social media and information that's coming at you through there. And if you can get to the bottom of those questions, I think that will clear a lot up for you, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (40:09.458)
For sure. mean, obviously in my journalism programs, we learned a lot about media literacy. And I think I hope I should ask my husband because he went through teaching certificate or teaching education, obviously, as a master's in teaching. And I'm curious if they teach it to teachers, which is really the best place where it should be happening. But anyway, there's a great resource called the National Association of Media Literacy Education that on their website has a lot of questions that, by the way.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:27.4)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:36.266)
Yeah, I'm on their email list.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:38.788)
Yeah, if you are a parent, if you are an educator, obviously for yourself, but also thinking beyond yourself, you may think, well, I know these things. We've got to be teaching our children because it's not happening inside the schools. I can tell you that. And so it's important for us to be teaching our children who are spending inordinate amounts of time online and being inundated with messages on YouTube and everywhere that are telling them things. They've got to learn how to critically assess this information.
go to their website, I'll put the link in the show notes because they have key questions for analyzing media and there are incredible questions. Sorry.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:13.425)
They also have like, they also have different tools, like they have like, like different lesson plans that you can use if you're an educator or if you're homeschooling your children. Or yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:25.156)
or just a parent, even if you're not, because I want to say you cannot rely on our education system to do this for our children.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:30.258)
Right, right, especially with the threat of the DOE being dismantled in the near future.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:34.852)
Exactly. And even those that do, I don't think most of this happens until kids are in high school, if it happens at all. And by then, we've already started to create this next generation of Columbine shooters, right? Like we've got to be doing it when they're young.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:40.581)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:46.289)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I saw again something on TikTok where I think it's a fendlin where they actually teach elementary school age students critical media literacy. While meanwhile, we're, you know, fighting against banned books over here. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:04.09)
right and falling behind on every marker of education. Just a reminder, which all goes back to this whole colonialism and the great American dream lie. We all buy into this belief that America is the best at everything. And in fact, our students are in really, we are not competitive in so many ways. so, and people often think that, like I will hear people, we've got to get back to the basics, because that's the problem. But honestly, if you look at the countries that are doing the best,
Taina Brown she/hers (42:18.983)
It's not.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:33.272)
in testing scores, they're not countries that are just like drilling their kids on basics. kids, they're people who are creating independent thinkers. And that is where we fall short, right? It is not the Chinas and Russians and the communist states of the world that are leading in these test scores. It is places like Finland where they are really focused on how do we create independent thinkers. And that is what we need to learn. And we just...
Taina Brown she/hers (42:42.278)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:53.586)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:00.794)
I know it's hard. get it because I'm a parent and it is hard to do additional work. You're like, my kid's been in school all day. I've been at work all day. Let's just have fun tonight. But we need to just in our everyday conversations, like when your kid asks you, mom, are taxes? We need to start to integrate these values into our children. And when your kid is looking at something online or, we were just watching Temple Grandlin, the movie, and talking about autism, right? And talking about differences and like,
Taina Brown she/hers (43:05.906)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:30.844)
Finding all those little places to integrate conversations about these bigger issues is just so critical. we want to have that as the effect as parents that we can have on what happens next. And I try to remember that even when I'm exhausted.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:37.513)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. mean, I think the whole education conversation, and this might be another topic for another episode, but it just goes back to the whole idea that public education originally was not created to develop independent thinkers. It was created to create a working class. That was the whole point of public education, to train children on how to...
Becky Mollenkamp (44:05.176)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:12.402)
pay attention to one thing for long hours at a time. when older, how to take directions. Yeah, so when they're older and they go work at the factory, they're better employees. So, and we talk about that.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:16.1)
how to take direction, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (44:24.55)
Yeah, I would love to talk about education another time. So, but let's wrap up because we're hitting our 45 minute mark, which is the dream space, although I usually end up going to 50, 55. Sorry, everyone, but we're really trying. Where do you want to finish? Do you think last thoughts or anything you want to share?
Taina Brown she/hers (44:30.693)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:35.058)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (44:39.95)
Yeah, I mean, my last thoughts are, you know, it, yeah, it's a dumpster fire, but I am actually feeling quite hopeful. And so, and I know that's hard to grasp right now for a lot of people, but wherever you can find hope, like cling to it, you know? And I think, for me, I think one of the reasons I'm feeling hopeful is because this is pushing me harder into my community. And that's where I find my hope.
and my joys. if you are, if you feel like you're lacking that, like dive deeper into your community.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:16.924)
Find, create, engage with, get deeper with community. I agree 100%. The thing that keeps me feeling, I don't know if I'm quite at hope, but not overwhelmed as I know others are feeling. granted, I have to always say in that I have a lot of privilege in this time. So I get that. And those with far less, I can understand, have deep empathy for why they may not be feeling the degree of...
Taina Brown she/hers (45:20.995)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:45.028)
non-fear that I'm feeling. So I want to say that, preface it with that, of course. But I do think a big reason for my ability to put one foot in front of the next, there's a couple of things. One is I have made a lot of conscious decisions to not engage with the political theater, which helps to free so much of that mental space and what would probably bring me down and angry and bring up all of those negative emotions. I have intentionally said I'm not going to participate and engage with that.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:46.051)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:14.042)
And secondly is being in community and seeking out, and I am really active in it right now. I'm trying to have 50 coffee chats between now and my 50th birthday at the end of February with like-minded people. Like I'm really actively seeking out really values aligned people because I want to create and find and hold onto that community of people who are in the same fight. Because when I am with those people, I feel this like, even if it is a vacuum, I'm okay with it because it gives me what I need to keep going. This feeling of, hey,
Taina Brown she/hers (46:32.698)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:43.93)
I'm not alone. I'm not the only one feeling this way. In fact, there's a lot of us trying to remember we are actually the majority, not the minority, who don't support these policies, don't support Trump. And we're getting, this is actually radicalizing us in so many ways. Like I see people who I don't think in the past would have been radicalized beginning to feel more radicalized. And that gives me hope. Like, okay, if it serves to do anything, it's serving to radicalize people and...
Taina Brown she/hers (46:49.311)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:57.005)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (47:02.178)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:09.71)
in new ways, people who never would have been engaged in that way and getting them thinking about how do I fight back? And I don't necessarily mean a violent revolution, although again, when does it become inevitable? But people saying like, how do I resist? What does it look like to resist? And that gets me excited. So I think we're in the same page there. Community is everything. Yeah, so, okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:10.541)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:24.485)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. How, where are you on your 50 coffee charts?
Becky Mollenkamp (47:34.57)
I have had like five, so I've got a lot of work to do, but I'm reaching out. I've had people, every person I meet, I'm asking them who else I can meet. I'm getting more introductions. So I don't know. I don't know if I'll make it by 50. My goal, like my thought is I will give myself full permission, all of my 50 by 50 goals to extend them through my 50th year if I can't meet them by my 50th. Cause like, I don't want to get rigid about this and like beat myself up if I don't make it. But I'm doing well on some of them, like some of my 50 by 50, like the 50 movies, I was going to do 50 Christmas movies.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:51.807)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:02.662)
Got that one done. I'm doing, I want to read 50 poems. I'll make that one. 50 cough chats, I think I'll get close. But you know, some of them I won't. And that's okay. I have a whole year if I need to. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:12.075)
You have a little year, yeah. And if you're listening and you want to have a coffee chat with Becky, just email us, messyliberation at gmail.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:19.152)
I would love it. Yes, messyliberation at gmail.com. Please do, because it's funny. Like, listen, we don't have a giant readership audience. Maybe all of you have already met me. We're listening. But I listen to things, and people will extend these kind of offers. And people think, like, it's this parasocial relationships where then we create. It's the.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:30.538)
Hahaha
Becky Mollenkamp (48:41.701)
Celebrative, celebratification. What's the right word where we make people average people into celebrities just because we're hearing them in some other capacity that we like associate with celebrity. And I'm in no way saying that people think I'm a celebrity. But I have had a few times where people have been like, oh, I didn't know you'd actually want to chat or whatever. And I'm like, dude, just because like, yeah, I'm just a normal, like super normal person who just happens to be using their voice. So, yes, I'm sure Taina or I would be happy to have on the zoom call. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:43.167)
No, no.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:49.407)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:59.594)
Yeah!
Taina Brown she/hers (49:07.881)
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:09.914)
Reach out. Go read about media literacy as you engage wherever you engage. I think maybe that's ultimately the message out of this whole podcast is like media literacy matters. Now more than ever, my favorite drink. How many times we hear that drink? All right. Well, good to see you, Taina. Happy 2025.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:16.363)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Now voiceover,
Taina Brown she/hers (49:29.195)
Happy 2025!