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The Fanfic Writers’ Craft is a podcast that discusses all things fanfiction with a focus on the art and science of writing for the enjoyment of fan communities. Every three weeks, Jo and Blayne (otherwise known in fandom as @pebblysand and @nargles15) sit down for a fun, multi-fandom, fanfic-related chat and delve into particular topics such as: the particularities of writing and reading fanfiction, monetisation, how to build a fanfiction plot, etc. Hope you enjoy!
You can find us and contact us at: https://thefanficwriterscraft.tumblr.com/
Hello, and welcome to the Authentic Writers' Craft. A podcast that discusses all things fan fiction with focus on the art and science of writing for the enjoyment of fan communities. My name is Jo aka Puebli Send and I'll be your host for the next hour or so. My co host, Blaine, writes online under the name Nargos 15. You'll meet her shortly.
Jo:We hope you enjoy but for now, buckle up, get yourself a nice cup of tea and welcome to the fanfic writers craft. Hello and welcome to the fanfic writers craft. This is Jo. I hope you're all doing well. This is our first episode of 2025, so welcome.
Jo:And I'm very excited because this is our first episode with my new cohost, Blaine, aka Nargles 15. If you've missed the update, Lanny, unfortunately, had to step back, from the podcast in 2024. If you want more details on that, we discussed it in our wrap up episodes so you can listen to that. And although I am super sad to see her go, I'm also very excited to continue this adventure with someone new. So Blaine did come on an episode previously a while back, which I will link in the show notes, but I do want to re extend a super warm welcome to Blaine and let her reintroduce herself.
Jo:So hi there. How are you? Do you wanna reintroduce yourself to our listeners? Tell them who you are, what you write, etcetera.
Blayne:Oh, I would be chuffed to bits too. Hello. So, yeah, like Dior said, I'm Blaine. I go by Nargles 15 on a o 3 and, I think, be telling on Tumblr. I'm never on Tumblr, so apologies on that.
Blayne:But I'm usually lurking somewhere around a o 3. Yeah. And I say about what I write is if you like dystopian hellscapes and insanely slow updates, come to the party. I am the worst about updating. It haunts me daily.
Blayne:So if you're frustrated, I'm frustrated. We can be frustrated together.
Jo:But I feel like what you guys need to know as well is that Blaine is also writing original fiction at the same time, which is why there's very slow updates on her fic right now, and we are all very excited to read her original fiction once it's released. But yeah. So, basically, as I said in December, you know, we are going to keep the same sort of format of, like, having big discussions on certain topics, But we're also gonna try and do something, new and something different. So maybe we're gonna have more chatty episodes and just try and bring you know, kind of refresh the format a little bit. Not that I'm fed up with the format.
Jo:I think, you know, it's been 3 years since we've been doing the same thing. So I think I need a little bit of change is always welcome. And one of the things that I'm very excited about and that we're going to be doing this year is we're going to be discussing fan fiction news. So at the beginning of each segment, we're going to do, like, a 10 to 15 minute discussion on something that's more of a current topic in fan fiction. It could be, you know, some fandom feud.
Jo:It could be some fandom scandal. It could be, something, you know, like, in a new fan fiction being published or something like that. Just to try and keep things a little bit more current and a little bit more in the news of the week or the month that we're doing that episode in. And so I am very excited to present to you that we have a little jingle for you. So drum roll, here's the jingle.
Jo:Without further ado, this is the news.
Blayne:Breaking nose from the exciting world of fan fiction.
Jo:The first thing that we wanted to discuss is, as I'm sure you've all seen, at least in the fan in the Harry Potter world, the very famous successful thick manacle by Senling Yu was recently taken off a o three because she is rewriting it and reimagining it to publish it as an original fiction book called Alchemize. I think, a lot of people are very excited about this and especially in the Hermione sort of section of the fandom, which I am not a part of, but I, do kind of haunt their TikTok, a lot. And I think a lot of people are kind of excited about this and so we thought it would be interesting as, you know, writers of fan fiction to kinda discuss what we think about it. The author kind of announced this already last year, so they did give a massive, like, advance notice of people to, like, tell them that the fic was going to be taken off the platform. And I think the imprint that is publishing Alchemized is an imprint from Penguin Random House, and it's going to be transforming the story into original work.
Jo:The author announced that the fic was going to be taken off the platform in January 2025, and that did happen. I think a lot of people didn't kind of believe it. Like, a lot of people were like
Blayne:A lot of people didn't.
Jo:Yeah. And then a lot of people were like, I seemed, like, very confused as to why medical was offline. And I was like, she's been saying this for, like, weeks weeks weeks weeks weeks. What do we kind of think about all of this? Like, what's your take on it?
Jo:Because I think, like, it's happening more and more that, like, fan fiction writers are publishing, you know, original books are kind of like their fix with serial numbers filed off. So I was wondering, like, what do we think about this?
Blayne:No. I think it's such an interesting discussion because I it's a really two sided coin because I do like the idea of publishing responding to what people are are wanting to read, what people are exploring in these spaces. I think, you know, I mean, mind you, we're talking about a Hermione fan fiction fan fiction, and, you know, the the other really popular fan fiction, fandoms that that have the serial numbers filed off are like, your Harry Styles is a sexy bad boy in fiction. Your, like, I know Reylo is a really big one. Yeah.
Blayne:So they're still, like, pretty hit. But I do in theory, I do like the idea that this could potentially open up the world of of fiction publishing to some, you know, themes and such that are explored a little bit more in fan fiction that, you know, not aren't necessarily fully explored in fiction publishing. That said, the kind of what I what I tend to lean more towards because it is an indictment of capitalism and that's where I live, is that it's it's it's a part of, to me, this kind of worrying growing trend of what I call the nonfictionification of fiction writing. So kind of peek behind the curtain. If you are looking to get a nonfiction work published and you are not a, like, known entity, you don't have any sort of social media presence, You don't have, you know, any sort of, like, larger following.
Blayne:It is from what, you know, agents and industry people say, all but a complete uphill battle in order to get that. When you are soliciting for an agent, for a nonfiction work, you are including your, like, social media stats in it. You are you know, I have a 150,000 followers on Instagram. I have this, that, and the other. And if you don't have that, like, it is in it it's just it's all kind of but, you know, please keep trying.
Blayne:But, like, that is something that, like, is really going to work against you. And I I I worry that it's going to kind of become this unless you are someone with a quote, unquote proven readership. It's gonna be harder and harder for debuts to break through because I I don't you know, publishing is always going to you know, they're not necessarily gonna try and set trends. They're gonna try and follow trends. Look at the huge wave of supernatural romances in the late, you know, 2000 into early 20 tens after Twilight.
Blayne:Look at the wave of ever watered down dystopian You fiction after Hunger Games. They're they're looking to publish easily kind of consumable. Once the big one makes it splash, they're looking for the quote, unquote next best thing, which is why you go from Hunger Games, which is incredibly well written in my opinion, to the Divergent series, which is not my case. I hot takes on the Divergent series on the podcast. I
Jo:okay. Hot take. I did like divergent. I really liked it. I don't know.
Jo:I don't understand the hate
Blayne:against it. Falls apart completely. We can do a whole dive with the episode because I have so many thoughts on it. I like, also, I'm bitter because the girl like, the woman who wrote it literally wrote it in, like, 3 weeks over, like, winter break while she was still, in school for writing. And I'm just like, I hate that you got this.
Blayne:Like, I I do acknowledge I have very bitter feelings. Homegirl doesn't have to work a day in her life. She's printing money on that series. But it's it's so frustrating because I think it actually could be, like, really, really good. It just needs so much more work.
Blayne:My thoughts on You dystopian fiction aside, I just I I wish that knowing what I know about the publishing industry and and and, you know, being a part of kind of her her academic sister side, like, I get that publishing houses are, you know, it's it's it's an increasingly difficult industry. I think in America, it's especially going to become an even more increasingly difficult industry if this TikTok ban goes through because BookTok has given a resurgence to, like, buying physical books. You know, people from Barnes and Noble were even talking about that, you know, as recently as, like, a few days ago. I don't like where I can potentially see this going of, you know, foretelling this. It becoming more difficult for debut fiction authors to be able to sort of break through without writing fan fiction, which, you know, I'm on this podcast.
Blayne:I think it's great, but, like, it's not for everyone, and I think that's totally fine. And it's it's it's it's not necessarily a muscle that some writers want to stretch. Like, I just I don't I don't like where it's it's pretending that the industry is going.
Jo:Yeah. I think I agree. Because on the one hand, what I do really like is sort of I think this shows a shift in mentalities, especially in, like, the publishing world and the publishing industry of fan fiction, like, writing fan fiction used to be incredibly shameful. Like, it was, yeah. You know, it was something that, like, you did not talk about.
Jo:There was this idea which, like, Lani and I have talked at length on the podcast of, like, all fan fiction is just porn and smart, and it's badly written.
Blayne:Yeah. Which only some of it is.
Jo:And I think and I think, obviously, like, the one sort of known well known fan fiction that exists, which is 50 Shades of Grey, obviously, fed into that stereotype. And so I think, like, seeing content like Manacold which is, you know, very different or, you know, other even other fan fictions that exist, like, I think it's great that fan fiction authors are kind of getting finally the recognition they deserve and and seeing that, like, no. It's not just porn. No. It's not just, like, teenage girls writing the this, you know, and people who can't write, read by people who have no taste.
Jo:Like,
Blayne:a o three, people who can't write read by people who have no taste.
Jo:And so, yeah, like, I think I think I think that's a very good thing and, you know, that was one of the reasons why I wanted this podcast to exist in the first place is, you know, to kind of participate in that trend of legitimizing fan fiction as a real form of writing. That part I'm really in favor of, but at the same time, I agree that, like, there's this idea with the publishing industry of, like, them just, like, kinda cashing out on fan fiction. And I would love to see someone from a publishing industry reach out to the author of Medical and be like, look, you've clearly demonstrated that you can write something really well and have a lot of success. How about you write something of your own and and we're we'll pay you in advance for you to write something else like, something new. That I think would be great.
Jo:I mean, I understand your point about, like, forcing people to have an audio like, to already have an in built audience and that being a dangerous, like, sort of slippery slope. But I do think, like, to a certain extent I'd love that to happen of being, like, okay, you've been successful in fan fiction, we see that, we acknowledge that. Here's, you know, whatever advance to write an actual book. Would love to see that, but the problem is, like, that's not what's happening. It's just, like, they're getting contracts for to basically cash out on something that's already proven successful and it's showing that, like, the publishing industry is not willing to really take a risk Yeah.
Jo:On that. Like, it's not really a risk that they're taking. That kind of makes me sad, I think. And I also think, like, I know you and I have talked about this, but the idea that they took a medical offline proves to me that they have no understanding of how the Internet or, like, fan fiction works because clearly everyone went and downloaded MediGold and well, not everyone because there's, like, idiots who are, like, complaining about it, but, like, most people who wanted to download medical medical did and then so it's kinda like, why would you Yeah.
Blayne:Why would you take
Jo:this offline? Like, this fic will not cease to exist. Like, I feel like that was the attempt to kinda take it offline and pretend like it never existed and it's like, no. That's not how fan fiction work. That's not how the Internet works even.
Jo:And I just I don't know. I find it's, like, a little bit nonsensical and a little bit like, I'm I'm very, very split about this is my is my thing.
Blayne:They keep using and, I mean, you even used it when because it's it's the word that keeps getting thrown around when you were originally describing this is saying, you know, and this is not a knock against, you know, the author of Manacle. This is something that is continually happening whenever you get a case of of filing off the serial numbers, is that, oh, this is a completely reimagined work. So it kinda becomes a question of, okay, which is it? Is it so reimagined that it has become this new work and there is no, you know Yeah. It is not fan fiction.
Blayne:It is its own thing, Or is it this is much too close to what Manacold was such that we, the publisher, feel the need to pull it from the free site because we are thinking, and this has to be the reasoning, that it's going to interrupt sales, which is nonsense because it's basically free advertisement. Like, if you and and then again, it doesn't make sense because if you like Manacled enough, you have quote unquote already read it. But half of you know, not even half. The majority of the people excited for alchemized are the manacled fans. Yeah.
Blayne:Like like, it just it may it's it's this weird kind of triple layer of twisted thinking that, like, it's it's bullshit all the way down. Like, I just I really like your point of going to successful fan fiction authors and being like, hey. You've got a formula here. People are obviously interested in in reading your work. Do you wanna write you know, you could have done do you wanna write a, you know, supernatural dark romance?
Blayne:Like, the romantacy is what the book talkers are calling it these days. To me, that would kind of scratch the same itch. Hi. I'm so and so. I wrote this incredibly popular fic.
Blayne:I'm now going to be writing my first debut original fiction. If I like your work, I'm like, buckle the fuck up. How do I buy this? No.
Jo:A 100%. And that has happened to me before. Like, there's I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say her name because I don't know if she wants her fan fiction to be associated with her original fiction. But, like, there's this one author who used to write in the the Good Wife fandom who I absolutely adored. Like, she she some of her fanfic is, like, ingrained in my brain.
Jo:Oh, love it. I was sucking her life journal once and I realized that, like, she had published original books. And so I googled those books. Those books were were also published under an alias but then she wrote more books that became very successful and she linked those early books to her new website. And so and so I ended up finding her new original fiction.
Jo:And I read and I read some of her books and I really liked them. I mean, she writes so she writes You that's, like, real You. Like, it's really targeted, like, teenagers. It's not for adults.
Blayne:Oh, that's a whole new episode. We could talk about that.
Jo:And so I like, it wasn't my favorite thing ever because, obviously, I'm not the target audience, but I did recognize, like, her talent and I'm very very, like, happy. So I do think it's if I went to that length to, like, find her original fiction, people would buy stuff that's sending you sending you rights under, like, you know, her real name as, like, original fiction. Do you know what I mean?
Blayne:Oh, I completely agree. Like, there are, you know, there are a couple authors, like, fanfic authors who are coming to mind for me where I'm, like, oh, if they were to announce that they're publishing original fiction, I'm, like, preorder that piece Yeah. From your local bookstore. Like, that would be, like, a 100%. I I almost don't like, I I don't know.
Blayne:Maybe, again, this is because of just, like, the sort of conversation we're having. Like, I I, as the reader, would want something new. I don't need it reimagined. Like, I'll read alchemize because I'm curious to see how she's gonna do it. Like, because so much of it is is tied up in Harry Potter, and that's, to me, kind of the that's the magic of it to not to to use a pun.
Blayne:But I yeah. I'm I I would rather something new. Like, you as the author like, I wanna see you continue to write and grow and and and to kinda hearken back to a conversation we were having before we hit record. Like, I don't wanna see the same thing endlessly rewritten Yeah. Over and over and over again.
Blayne:I wanna I want you to grow as an author. I want you to challenge yourself. I wanna see what you can do.
Jo:Yeah. No. I agree. So for anyone who is interested, I will also link a TikTok for this this episode is coming out after the TikTok Rub
Blayne:it in. Rub it in.
Jo:But I will link a TikTok in the show notes that was made by Victoria Averett who's the author of Red Queen who which is also on this topic, and she's, like, a massive proponent of fan fiction. And she has made a very interesting 8 minute TikTok about her thoughts on this, and I completely agree with her. And if you are interested in this topic, I would advise you listen and re and watch that. So anyway, we are going to move on to our main discussion today which is canon compliance.
Blayne:I am so excited.
Jo:I have been waiting to do this topic for, like, 3 years. I'm so excited. I love I love discussing, like, canon compliance. But, basically, for anyone who is, I don't know, living under a rock or something, in the world of fan fiction, canon compliance is the idea of, like, how closely a fic should stick to the established events characterization and world building of the original work versus going into what we call an AU, which is an alternate universe which kind of ignores either the totality or parts of the original work. I think some writers thrive on weaving their stories seamlessly into canon and exploring sort of untold moments in canon whilst, you know, others kind of prefer crafting AUs.
Jo:And I think we've done an episode on AUs. Both of them are, like, absolutely valid, but it is now time to do canon compliance. And canon compliance is what I write, so I'm very excited about that. But, yeah, I think we're gonna discuss about, like, where do we draw the line between honoring canon and reshaping it to serve the story we want to tell? And so we're gonna be diving into all the shades, all the many shades of canon compliance today.
Jo:But I think the first sort of question that we should answer probably is how do we define canon compliance? Because I have seen very weirdly very, very different takes about this. So what what are your thoughts about this?
Blayne:I am such a Nazi about this. I I I take a very, like, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery kind of approach where being a Nazi about canon, like, what is considered canon, I think, allows just a lot of freedom. Let's take Harry Potter. If it is not in the 7 published books, I don't consider it canon. I don't consider any of JKR's interviews.
Blayne:I don't consider anything in the movies. I don't consider I do not consider Cursed Child. Oh, my lord. I don't cons like, you'll go on to the Harry Potter wiki, and you'll be reading about something, and it'll mention, like, and then Jacob. And I'm like, who the fuck is Jacob?
Blayne:And it's some guy from a video game. And I'm like, this is not like, why is this on the wiki? I am I'm such a Nazi about it just because I think if you just go, it is the books. Anything else is, like, you can include it, but, like, that's not a part of the canon. And I say that not to be, like, then you can't say it's canon compliant, but to say you can't get the people who will kind of come to you when you say that you and I know you've you and I have talked about this.
Blayne:You've had a couple people because, you know, you say that you write canon compliant, but, like which you do. You absolutely do. It's just not rigidly canon compliant. It's flexibly canon compliant. And it's, like, in the spirit of canon.
Blayne:And it you get people being, like, well, this is slightly different in the
Jo:in the in the this, that, and
Blayne:the other. And I'm, like, why are we over policing this? So I just I don't know. I feel like if you really make the box of, like, what canon is, like, quite small, like, there is a weird freedom to that. Like, I don't cons like, because when you go to Harry Potter world and you, like, ride the rides, like, there's always, like, a little bit of a storyline on there.
Blayne:Like, I'm sorry. Are we considering the storyline in Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey to be part of canon? Like, where does it end? And I know whenever you ask the question, where does it end? It ends somewhere.
Blayne:But, like, but, like, I I I am very much it is especially with regards to Harry Potter. Like, I know that some other, you know, fan and or fandoms can get, like, a little bit more complex. But, like, with Harry Potter, I am like, it is the 7 books. And that and other than that, we're done here.
Jo:Yeah. I think, like, to me, everything that's, like, Cursed Child or anything that's, like, basically on the wiki, to me, it's, like, pick and choose what you like. For instance, from Cursed Child in Castles, I took the Scorpius Albus ship because I No.
Blayne:That's canon. No.
Jo:No. But, like, do you know what I mean? Like, I like because I like that element but I didn't take Cursed Child as a whole. Like Yeah. I'm happy to take certain bits and pieces of these things if they, like, serve me or if they, like, interest me, but I don't consider them, like, hardcore canon.
Jo:I don't think if you write, I don't know, Scorpius with some render from Hogwarts. I don't know. I don't think that's, like, not canon compliant. So so I do I do agree with that. But I think to me, the sort of canon compliant discussion has had what I've seen come up is 2 things.
Jo:First of all, like, the sort of what is compliant to what you're saying, meaning the letter of the book, all of the details that are given in the book. And are you compliant to the spirit of the book? And what I mean by that is I know that for instance for Castles, and I think to a certain extent that's probably because of the way the canon compliant circles and specifically the sort of henny side of the fandom is made up. But I have had people tell me Castles is not canon compliant because it is not compliant with the spirit of the book. That's like this You children's book with some adult themes, but not that much.
Jo:You know, the characters don't really swear. And I have had people say to me, like, to put it bluntly, the fact that Ginny gets assaulted is not canon compliant, not because it contradicts what's in the book, but just because it's like JK Rowling would never have written that or, like, the book that doesn't cater to that. Now I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's a good story. But I think I see canon compliance as, like, compliance to the letter of the book. I don't see canon compliance as, like, compliance with the overall sort of themes and aesthetics of the book and, like, the target audience of the book.
Jo:I think that's where my sort of canon compliance stops.
Blayne:Yeah. Because I think the question kinda then become not to completely break it down, but, like, I think the question becomes why then canon compliance quote, unquote matters. Like like, what are when when you see a book or a fic that is tagged canon compliant, like, what are you expecting from it? And, like, I guess, where does the ire come from if it is not within your own personal understanding of canon? Like, I because, like, I feel like I very much fall when I'm reading under the letter of, like, in the general kind of spirit of canon.
Blayne:Like, if if we're talking it's post war, the same couples kinda hold. You've maybe got some of the fanon ones where it's like Dean and Seamus ship them forever. Like, you've got your Albus, Scorpius. Like, you've got your ones that are, like most of the fandom kind of goes, pretty canon compliant. Like, it's if you squint, it's there.
Blayne:Like but I you know, whereas if you go, okay. Draco and Hermione are together to throw it back to Hermione. I'm like, yeah. Maybe this isn't a necessarily, like, canon compliant work. But I I do I think I, as a writer, am so rigid about what I consider canon so that I can just be like, I guess it's not canon compliant.
Blayne:Leave me alone. Like, I like, I just I wonder where that, like, militant policing of what canon is. Because, like, I I agree. I think kinda keep it to the spirit of the books. But if if if if there is this consideration that canon compliance is essentially just, you know, missing moments from the series written in the exact same tone, which, like, don't get me wrong, there are a couple of those that I, like, really, really enjoy.
Blayne:But I'm like, I don't know, man. Just go reread the books. Just go reread the books. I love seeing what people stretch canon and demeaning and and because then you get into, like, well, Harry's kind of a little out of character. And it's, like, well, yeah, because different events are happening.
Blayne:He's changed over the course of the story.
Jo:Yeah. And I think, like, I always think of this fic that I really love called We Only Make Tsunamis. So it's basically like Harry and Hermione, but it's canon compliant. She created this entire world of Harry and Hermione. It's not really a relationship.
Jo:It's like they have a non relationship on and off kinda thing. But within the gaps that canon and the books allow her to develop that and it's kind of, like, written like a tragedy because, obviously, they don't end up together because she chooses Ron in the end. I find and this is kind of getting to our next question of, like, why do we write canon compliance? To me, that is the fun of it. Like, it's kinda like taking what the letter of the book is and going in and being like, how do I build this story that I wanna build?
Jo:Whilst still obeying by these criteria that I have to obey by? To me, it kind of boosts my creativity being like, okay. I have this, like, set of things that have to happen. How do I make them happen and how do I make my story sort of compliant with that while still being, like, an original story? And we only make tsunamis.
Jo:It's like this beautiful I love this fix. Like, it's one of my I'm not a Harry Hermione shipper at all, but, like, it's just this fact is incredibly well written, and I just love the way that she kind of uses canon to her advantage to develop the relationship that, like, clearly is not quote, unquote, canon compliant because, you know, that doesn't happen in the book. But to me, it is canon compliant and it is tagged as canon compliant because it does exist within this gap of, like, plausible deniability of, like, yeah, this is not in the letter of the book, but it could have happened because it is compliant with what is in the letter of the book. And I think, like, that's how I shaped castles and that's how she shapes that thick. And I just I absolutely love the way that is shaped.
Jo:And I think that's what is fun for me in writing canon compliance is just making that creative journey, I guess.
Blayne:I love that you mentioned it as being, like, an exercise in creativity. Because thinking about this, all I could think of is, it was a few years back, West Side Story was mounted I have a point I'm gonna I swear. West Side Story was mounted, up on Broadway, and one of the creative choices they made is to have Anita and, Maria and any of the other, Puerto Rican characters, when they were singing, you know, by themselves or, you know, 2 other Puerto Rican characters, they were singing in Spanish. Because the song, you know, I Feel Pretty is so well known that, like, you you you don't need the if you are not a Spanish speaker, and they didn't translate, you, like, didn't have to like, you got the spirit of the song, and it just added another sort of layer of verisimilitude. And, Lin Manuel Miranda was the one who did the translations, and he talked about it as because you have to stick within the very specific, like, meter of the song.
Blayne:And he talked about working on translations for that as doing the world's most intriguing cross word puzzle of, like, it has to fit with and I I that is so what I see of, like, what working within Canon compliance is. Is it is how do I explore within the kind of constraints of the world's most intriguing crossword puzzle. And what does it mean like, what you were saying with the the the Harry and Hermione story. Like, this fits within those cracks. You kinda can't say it does it.
Blayne:It, but having not read it, I will go read it. That sounds fascinating. Yeah. That's Kyrie and Hermione are one of those ships where, like, if you can convince me, like, I am impressed. Like, I and I have a couple of those where I'm, like, I don't, like, like, personally say, but I love being convinced by it.
Blayne:Like, I'm I'm so intrigued by stuff like that. That's generally kinda how I am with ships that aren't necessarily my ship. Like, if you can convince me, I'm down. But, yeah, I I just I like I I like when canon compliance is an exercise in creativity and not in, like, militant policing. That's when I think it becomes, like, really interesting and rich and allows, you know, those works where we're like, how did you do that?
Blayne:That?
Jo:That to me is what is interesting about it. And I because I often see, like, on Reddit and stuff, a lot of people who write, like, AUs and to varying degrees of not being compliant, being like, what's the point of canon compliance? It's so boring. The couples are so boring and all that stuff. And I'm like, to me, that is the point.
Jo:Like, it's like, how do I make Harry and Ginny the, like, most boring couple on the planet? It's interesting. It's so boring. Like, how do I make them interesting? I always say this and I know a lot of people are kind of like, some people are offended by it.
Jo:I'm not, like, a hardcore Harry and Ginny shipper. Like, I just I don't really mind it that much. I love both characters but I love the versions of the characters that I have in my head, especially Ginny. But in the books, I was kinda like I remember reading the books and being kind of indifferent as to who he was going to end up with. Like, that was never, you know, I never had, like, a very strong opinion on the ship in Harry Potter.
Jo:But, like, to me that's the thing. It's like, okay, how do I make this interesting? Like, is this is what canon gives me. How do I how do I work within canon to make this something that I am interested in? And I think that, to me, that's kind of like the whole point of writing canon compliance.
Jo:If I write an AU, like to me, writing an AU is kinda like, okay, then I'm just writing original fiction. There's like to me, there's just no point in going through the motions with these characters if I could write original fiction instead, you know. Like, I think Mhmm. That to me is just especially for some may use that are, like, completely different from canon, like, where, you know, there's, like, maybe one character from canon or something. I'm like, okay.
Jo:That I would just write original fiction. Like, I wouldn't be artists. Do you know what I mean?
Blayne:I do think I do think getting into, like, AUs a bit, there's there's kind of 2 types. And, like, I write I mean, in theory, haven't updated in a while. I write in in one I would I would say the kind of first vein, which is canon compliant up to a certain point, and now we've branched off into something different, which to me allows for okay. This is a this is an interesting story that I want to explore. Like, what would happen if x were to happen?
Blayne:You know, a situation were to drop in all of the characters' laps that changes, you know, still kind of having them the the almost guardrails of canon. Like, all the relationships are the same. They're gonna develop, but, like, they they all kinda start at the same starting point. And then you've got the ones that are like, oh, this is completely different, and we've changed everything. And and, like which I I do think it's kind of fun because, like, the broken part of my brain that won't allow me to read new things is like, well, at least I sorta know these characters.
Blayne:Yeah. But I think I like the idea of the restriction being the fun of it. Like, how yeah. How do you make it fit? I think that that's really interesting.
Jo:Yeah. And I I wonder so another thing that I wanted to sort of discuss regarding canon compliance is something that I think I never struggled with Sith Potter because I didn't write when the books were coming out. I wasn't writing well, I was writing but not in the Potter fandom. But I think there's, like, this struggle of, like, how do we write a canon compliant thing when you have a series that is still ongoing. So, like, you're writing, like, this is more for me, this was my experience writing for, like, TV shows for decades of, like, okay, well, you might write something on Tuesday, but then on Thursday, a new episode will come in and will completely destroy your fury or, like, your fic or whatever.
Jo:And so I'm wondering if, like, you have any takes on that.
Blayne:So having I wasn't writing in it, because I was, like, 14. Or if I was, those are hidden. Yeah. I was
Jo:hiding when I was 14.
Blayne:Listen. They're hidden. No one can find them. I the like, there was so there was the huge 3 year gap in the Harry Potter fandom between, her publishing Goblet of Fire in 2,000 and then Order of Phoenix didn't come out until 2003. And you realize when you are, like, really going back through it and mind you now, of course, like, the big fan fiction dot net purchase have happened.
Blayne:A03 wasn't really a thing there. So, like, not a lot of the fix have, like, survived the burning of the library of Alexandria fan fiction edition. But because and, like, you don't realize, like, really how much we got in the later books that completely affected the plot until you really go back and and reread it. Because, you know, we didn't have horror cruxes. We didn't have the prophecy.
Blayne:And so there are there is a a a dirge of fix out there that are written that are very what do we think is going to happen next because everyone was sitting and awaiting the book. And so, like, they were canon compliant in that kind of sense of, you know, like I was discussing before of everything is canon compliant up into the point of we are now awaiting new books. So the relationship dynamics are gonna stay about the same. But, I mean, if you even think about it, like, we didn't get Harry, Ginny until 5th book, arguably the 6th book. And so some of those even had, like, Harry and Cho ending up together, and that was considered canon because, you know, he had expressed interest in her and the whole kind of fallout in Madame Poody Foots hadn't happened yet.
Blayne:But, yeah, it's it's and so but those were considered canon compliant at the time. They're, you know, obviously, of course, not now. But, like, I I do I'm, like, I've kinda mentioned this before, but, like, I do find it really interesting, the shift that happens in, you know, at least Harry Potter. I I'm not super involved in other fandoms, so I can't say if it does or doesn't, but I'd be interested to know if they do. Where it's if this is ongoing, everyone's sort of waiting for an update.
Blayne:The fan fiction tends to be a little, what do we kinda think is gonna happen? How do we think it's gonna wrap up? Versus, okay. The whole series is out there, and it becomes a, well, what if this had happened instead? Or how do we kinda fill in the cracks?
Blayne:Or Yeah. We didn't like the ending. Fuck the epilogue. We're rewriting this whole thing. See, I I because I do think fandom is incredibly in conversation with the original work.
Blayne:And so if the original work isn't complete, it's the conversation is going to necessitate filling in the gaps as we're, like, awaiting the next installment.
Jo:Yeah. I think, like so in my experience, I was definitely, like, writing fanfic when the Harry Potter books were coming out, but I wasn't writing fanfic about the Harry Potter books. I was very afraid. And I'm still am to a certain extent of the Harry Potter fandom. Like, I was a lurker, but I found there was too many people, too much stuff going on.
Jo:Like, it terrified me.
Blayne:Yeah. It's an overwhelming fandom.
Jo:It was very overwhelming. And so I think, like, in my experience with TV shows, one of the things that I've noticed is that the way that fandom reacts when something is still ongoing is that the output is much quicker. So, like, I remember being in The Good Wife and stuff or even, like, Peaky Blinders to a certain extent where, like, the an episode would come out and, like, the next day, you had your big writers who would turn something around, like, that one episode overnight. Either an episode tag or what we called an episode tag which was, like, shit in Harry Potter would be, like, a missing moment or, like, something that went with the episode. You would have, like, a week to, like, write out a fic that would speculate as to what was going to happen next.
Jo:So the turnaround was a lot quicker. I remember, you know, you'd have, like, an episode come out and, like, immediately had to be on it. And so I think that was one of the things that I see as one of the differences. And I think also you kinda had to accept and that was that's kind of the way that I saw it at the time. You kinda had to accept that, like, you're fic had, like, you know, a weeks long lifespan.
Jo:You kinda you kinda had to accept that in 2, 3 weeks you're fic. It's not that no one was going to read it because obviously, like, there's always people who go back and, like, read. But I remember we would write out the fic. It would say, like, in the summary of today until episode season 2, episode 6 or whatever it was and then, like, most of the time, like, that fic would just become obsolete after a few episodes that would, like, contradict your fic. It's not that no one would read it but, like, you know, it kind of would die out after a while because the relevance of it was wouldn't wouldn't like, it wouldn't be as relevant anymore.
Jo:Hi, everyone. So this is Jo from the future. I also I was relistening to this and I also something came back to me and I don't know if, anyone who was writing fanfic or is writing fanfic for TV shows at the moment has the same experience. But a lot of the time the kind of run of the season, so the, you know, the time that the season runs, whatever it is, 13 episodes today or 24 back in the day or whatever, that time was mostly for, like, short fix, episode tags, exploring what would happen next and those fix, as I was saying in the episode, would often often be become irrelevant, like, a few weeks, a few months later. And then you would have the summer, at least for The Good Wife, which was airing during the year and then they had the summer off, you had the bigger projects during the summer so I remember sometimes having an idea for a story that I knew was going to take a little bit more time and be like, oh, I will wait until the summer.
Jo:I'll write that in the summer so that I have more time to write it and it has a little bit more time to be relevant as well in the fandom. So there was kind of like a schedule of fix around the schedule of the show, which I think is a bit interesting but anyway, back to the episode. And and also, you you kind of were writing with the acknowledgement that, like, anything that you were writing could be later contradicted by canon in the in The Good Wife. There are countless and count like, countless fics talking about Georgetown. Georgetown was a big thing because, like, that's where they went to law school together.
Jo:That's when they, like, hired, like, Will and Alicia met and everything. And so you would have, like, countless fics written about Georgetown. And then in season 7, they kind of the showrunners kinda came up with their own version and we're all, like, okay. And so that's kind of where, like, you also have that conversation about, like, fanon versus canon of, like, do we prefer, I don't know, at the time, like, Or by the Sea's version of of Georgetown, or do we prefer do we prefer the show? In my in my opinion, Or by the Sea's version is much better.
Jo:But, but yeah. So I think, like, that was kind of a, like, that was kind of the thing that you had to navigate as well as, like, knowing that whatever you bro could become irrelevant or at least not canon compliant in the weeks or months or years in, like, down the line.
Blayne:Oh, I think if I were to try and write any sort of, like, Severance fan fiction, it would be obsolete and, like, a day. Like, the show changes so much. But, like, I have I have a question for you. Having not written for a media like, fan fiction for a medium that's not already, like, a written book, so, like, how so when we were talking about, you know, canon compliance kind of being in in almost in the we talked about in the context of the Harry Potter fan fiction or Harry Potter fandom, but, like, the the spirit of the original, you know, work. Do you find that to be like, because translating the spirit and tone of a show or, you know, a movie or a visual medium to the spirit and tone of writing, like, do you find that to be something that is kind of of a concern in, you know, visual medium, fan fiction spaces?
Blayne:Like, how how is that kind of, dealt with? Or is
Jo:it Yeah. So that's kind of interesting. That's almost that's something that really fascinated me when I started writing in the Harry Potter fandom and reading Harry Potter fics is that I think a lot of Harry Potter fics and not to say a majority of them but a lot of them are kind of written in the style of JK Rowling. Right? So you've got like the past tense.
Jo:You've got, like, the sort of very serviceable sort of style that she has of, like Utilitarian prose. Yeah. And so and so you kinda have that and that makes sense because people have a written medium to base themselves upon and as I said, like, a lot of people consider that to be part of canon compliance. Obviously, if you have a TV show there's no style. If there's a style of dialogue which a lot of people try and keep consistent with, and and the characters have a voice, but there's no, like, style.
Jo:And so, what I found is that a lot more people in visual fandoms kind of write in their own style. So in their own, sort of, what I mean by that is that you will set you will get a lot more present tense, a lot more, like, writing maybe in more of a, like, contemporary lit style or, like, you know, in the style of writers that they like. So, like, you'd have I mean, I don't know. Right now, maybe you'd have someone writing, I don't know, Severance fan fiction in the style of Sally Rooney or something, you know.
Blayne:Like, it was Okay. I need to go
Jo:find that. You know, and so you the people will, like, write in in their own style with their own voice a lot more because obviously the show doesn't really provide that. But in terms of canon compliance, what I've noticed with this with TV series as well is that because of the way that TV series are made and especially American ones with, like, massive teams of, you know, there's like, sometimes there's like one show runner but, like, that person may quit and, like, the, you know, the show will go on and stuff. And so you get a lot more incoherences in canon. So, like, a lot
Blayne:of Yeah.
Jo:TV series, you don't know what their fucking birth dates are because one time they're 35, the next one they're, like, 42 and you're, like, how like, still does not make sense. And, like, there's a lot of, like, small incoherences that you see here and there or, like, sometimes it's, like, you got a character who, like, grew up in Chicago and then you you you, like, realize that they were suddenly in California because whoever, you know, changed on the writing team forgot the early episodes of season 1 and they're now writing season 7 and they kind of forget and, like, no one checks. Like, there's no there's no checker. I think in books most of the time you have, like, an editor who's, like, the same editor all the time. And so you you like, most of these incoherences are caught before the book gets published.
Jo:But, like, for TV shows, it's completely different. You don't have those checks. And so unless you have someone who runs their TV show with an iron fist like maybe Aaron Sorkin or, like, David Shore, unless you're, like, with those characters that are basically con control freaks, you have a lot of incoherencies. And so a lot of the time, like, writing fan fiction for the TV series as well is about choosing what part of canon serves you and and the kind of choosing what you wanna you wanna explore. And and a lot of the time, you will see disclaimers in fics that are kinda like, I took this element of canon as true.
Jo:For instance, when I was writing a fan fiction for Silk, there was a massive question around Martha's Martha's birthday and age because at one point, she says she's 37 and then another, she's 43 and you're kinda like, there's not that much time that has passed within the show. And so I kind of, like, you would write a disclaimer at the beginning of your fic being like, that is I chose 37 and that is the kind of timeline that we're going with. And if you're not happy with that, then deal with it. And so I think, like, we kinda you you kinda have to fill in the gaps in those TV series.
Blayne:No. Completely. I you mentioning the, like, TV shows that just change, like, shit that's happening because they're it's just been going on for so long. If you haven't watched the 4 hour Jenny Nicholson video on the Vampire Diaries, which is a show I have never seen, but I've seen this video, like, 3 times because she has a whole section where she just talks about shit, like, plot lines that are started and just completely dropped, and, like, shit that used to be such a big deal. They were like, wait.
Blayne:We've written ourselves into a corner. Never mind. But I imagine if you're writing, like, Vampire Diaries fan fiction and, like, it's, you know, like, oh, no mortals can touch the cursed amulet or whatever. And now they're like, never mind. More like a touchy amulet because they have to, because if not, this is super annoying.
Blayne:But I think that, again, I I I I
Jo:think that kinda goes back
Blayne:to my thing about, like, if canon is just there to be this sort of militant cudgel, like, what the what the hell is the point? Like, I like the just make your peace with it kind of a vibe. Like, this is this is the sort of canon that I am operating under. And, you know, if if you don't like it, don't read it.
Jo:Yeah. And I think I think there's, like, also a crowd. And I know some people have talked to me about this. I I didn't run into this too much myself. A little bit with Ginny's with Ginny's character in castles.
Jo:But, like, there's also people who are militant about fanon, which is interesting.
Blayne:Oh, god. Yeah. It's insane. I'm sorry. Hot take.
Blayne:It's insane. Oh, god. Yeah. It's insane. These are fake rules about fake people.
Blayne:Just don't read it. Like, it actually, like, drives me crazy.
Jo:Yeah. I think it's, like, I think it's so funny because it's, like, I I think a lot of people kind of read so much about, like, one character or, like, so much about, like, one ship that, like, they kind of Mhmm. They kind of forget about, like, the lines of canon and fanon. For instance, like, a canon and fanon. For instance, like, a character's personality.
Jo:It's like they've read this version of this person so many times that they think that is what canon is and it isn't or not necessarily. And I just I remember, I think it was on the pod, Alba Gette saying that she was writing this fic about Roberts, the head of the oars in Harry Potter. And she had him married to Hi. This is Jo from the future. I spent, like, 5 minutes trying to figure out who I was talking about.
Jo:Mary MacDonald is her name who was someone in the Marauders, like, I think she's mentioned once or twice in the books. But, yeah, going back to the episode. And so she had him married to this person and she mentioned, like, getting a lot of comments from people being like, well, this person is like dating, I don't know, Sirius or whatever or whoever else in the Marauder. They cannot be dating Robert. And she was like, that is fandom.
Jo:That is not canon. Like, in canon these people are only mentioned like once or twice and you don't know who they're dating. I think it's so interesting that people kind of build this thing. And at the same time, I love when something a detail in fan fiction becomes so prominent and famous that it becomes fan in. Like, I love that phenomenon, but I just don't think we should be strict about it.
Blayne:I think there's an interesting phenomena also where, like, people will forget what is canon because the fanon is so widely accepted. So to take it to take it to, Harry Potter one that's a little less controversial, Lucius Malfoy in the books is not abusive to Draco, and yet in so many which I do think is a really fascinating dynamic. And if you're gonna write a Draco redemption arc, like, that's kind of a way into it. It's it's this sort of saw they're putting too many expectations on a side. It's very, a la Avatar the Last Airbender, like, mirroring the relationship of the fire Lord Ozai and, Zuko, which I'm a huge fan of Avatar the Last Airbender.
Blayne:Could talk about that forever. One of the most responsible depictions of, like, living under, like, a totalitarian regime. It's just so good. But it's and you you kinda see the Lucius being a an abusive father pulled from some of the bits of the movies, especially in the 4th one where it's the, don't post, Draco. And he, like, hits him with the pimp cane.
Blayne:And it's it's and he's, you know because Jason Isaacs is so phenomenal in that role. He plays it in a certain way, and it's how it then became written into the further movies. But, like, in the books, he and Narcissa are, like, doting parents who are, like, absolutely obsessed with him. And, like, that is an important part of his book characterization. But, like, I do think that it's it's a situation where it's been so widely accepted by the fandom that Lucis was abusive that if you were to write the canon interpret the, you know, the canon Lucid's characterization, you could get knocked for, quote, unquote, it not being canon.
Blayne:And so that's why I'm just like, canon is all a lie, guys. Canon is the friends we made along the way. Like like, I yeah. If you're again, if you're using it for, like, a way to be creatively constrained, I'm like, oh, I'm so for it.
Jo:Yeah. And I think, like look. I think, unfortunately, a lot of people think on both sides that there is a hierarchy between canon and AU. I definitely don't think that is the case, but I think to me personally writing canon compliant or like canon adjacent is a lot more interesting because of those constraints and because to me it's like that's the fun of fan fiction. It's kinda like making something of your own out of something that is not yours and just kinda, like, existing within those gaps.
Jo:And so I think, like, you know, whether you choose to write canon compliance or not, it's it's it's a very interesting thing, but I don't think we should be talking people or, like, being super militant about it. Like, I've had people in my comment section getting mad at me for, like, the craziest nitpicky stuff. Touch picky stuff. Touch
Blayne:grass, y'all. Touch grass.
Jo:And I think there's a like, I I have seen this sort of what I I don't know if I wanna say this on the podcast, but, like, I've seen this sort of spirit of, like, trying to prove that you have the biggest willy a little bit, like, it's
Blayne:Just look it out and measure it.
Jo:No. But that's kind of the thing. Like, it's kind of like, oh, I I know Canon better than you. And, like, here is how Yes. I am going to prove this to you by, like, pointing the, like, one detail that you forgot.
Jo:And I think, you know, that needs to stop in my opinion because you need to, like, enter a dick measuring competition and, like, that is where you will thrive. It just well, it becomes
Blayne:it becomes, like, let me prove that I it's it's a gatekeeping measure. It's let me prove that I like this thing better than you. I know it more than you. It makes me think of those, like, really shitty it's always men, who, you know, a woman will express an interest in something that is traditionally considered male dominated, like sports, video games, and then it's just like, well, name this I don't know anything about sports. Name this line backers, you know, starting stats.
Blayne:And it's like, to what end? Like, I don't care if I get, like, a robe color wrong. Like, if you are noticing that, like, please go outside. Like Yeah. I am quite literally begging you.
Blayne:I I do think there are elements where, like, if it takes me completely out of the story, but that tends to be a bit more like if it is a work that is set in, like, Harry Potter, it is set in Britain, and the characters are eating, like, pancakes, and they're saying mom instead of mum, that will take me out of it because it's interrupting, like, the verisimilitude of the story. But, like, thinking about how little JK is able to do math at all and, like, you mentioned it in Castles of Being, like, oh, I got the birth years wrong for, you know, what was it, Teddy and Beboire because, like, the math is because the math is insane. Then it's just it's just like I don't know. We all are giving JK kind of a pass on this to varying extent. Can we all just chill?
Jo:Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Well, I think we can end the sepsit on that note.
Blayne:Can we all just chill?
Jo:Can we all just chill? Okay. Do you have any recommendations for us this week? Okay. It has nothing to do
Blayne:with canon compliance, but I need every single person on the planet Earth to watch Severance because it's the greatest show of all time. I I've I've I've been preaching this show since it dropped in 2022. Every single person who gets to watch it now for the first time, it doesn't have to sit with a cliffhanger. I only hate you a little bit. It's so well written.
Blayne:It makes me angry. It is the, like, anti capitalist dystopian show of my dreams. A phenomenal cast, phenomenal writing. It's so weird. It's a little sleepy in its tone.
Blayne:It is very sleepy. So Everyone okay. Everyone always says it's so slow. I watch it, and I'm gripped. Like like, hand on my chest gripped by this shit, but it's so absolutely up my alley that I recognize that, like, this could be the worst thing ever, and I'd still be so into it.
Blayne:But I I absolutely love it. It's on Apple Plus right now. I think they're doing some sort of, like, your first 3 months are free. So go do a free trial and watch the greatest TV show of all time, and then find me on Tumblr and talk to me about it because I am dying to talk about it because none of my friends have watched it yet.
Jo:Okay. I'll watch it I'll watch it tonight. But as I said to you, I don't remember the end of season 1. I remember I remember that I enjoyed it, but I don't but I don't remember what I was.
Blayne:I find that so funny because the last episode of Severance, it's 9 episodes long. I think I held my breath for 45 minutes. Like, I've never been so like, I think my because I watch everything on my laptop because I'm insane even though I have a TV. I think my nose was touching the screen. Like, I was so into it.
Blayne:I have not thought about, like, anything else for, like, the past 3 years. I find that so funny. Listen. We love it. Everyone this this is the the the the variety is the spice of life.
Blayne:If we all have the same opinion, life would be very boring. We probably wouldn't have Nazis in America, but life would be very boring. I'm really excited for, like, in 6 months when this podcast has just devolved in us bitching about capitalism and then being like, I mean, yeah, fandom. But also, like, fuck Amazon.
Jo:I am going to recommend, SIDA, which is also on Apple TV, and I have been obsessed with it the same way that you are obsessed with Severance, since it came out. It's a dystopian show, but I find it I don't know. It's got it's got vibes. It's I think it's, like, it's a show that deals really well with, like, again, what it's like to live in, I don't wanna say authoritarian state because that it's a little bit more complicated than that, but living in a dystopia at least. So, yeah, that I really, really like Silo, and the second season has just finished on Apple TV.
Jo:So if you want to watch that, you should.
Blayne:This podcast is brought to you by Apple TV.
Jo:God, I fucking wish.
Blayne:Oh my god. Yeah. Hey, Tim Tim Apple, if you're listening, we'll take that check now.
Jo:Okay. Well, Blaine, it was lovely to do this first episode with you. Where can we find you online?
Blayne:Always a joy. I am on I am narco15 on a o three. I am be telling on Tumblr. I think blame telling on, Twitter. Thanks.
Blayne:I am on TikTok for another oh, fucking that is the only thing I will ever dead name. It is Twitter until it dies. Fuck Elon Musk. And I will say that with my full chest, and then I will be put in a camp in, like, 6 months. So but nice knowing y'all.
Blayne:But, yeah, I'm I'm I'm terminally online, so y'all see me around.
Jo:Great. And I'm Beverly Sand on Tumblr and a o three. If you want to give us feedback or suggestions for topics for next episode, our ask box is open on Tumblr. We are the fanfic writer's crust.com, and not dot Tumblr.com anymore because I forked out 12 euros for the domain name. We love it.
Blayne:Big applause.
Jo:And we, if you want to help us finance the domain or or the podcast, you can head to codashvforward/thefanficwriters craft. This helps us pay for hosting fees as well. Well, thank you so much, Blaine.
Blayne:Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye bye.