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Oh web 2.0... where did you go? Lessons learned and testing of tools in the land of user-generated ed tech.
25 Years of Ed Tech is a serialized audio version of the book 25 Years of Ed Tech, written by Martin Weller of the Open University and published by AU Press. The audio version of the book is a collaborative project with a global community of volunteers contributing their voices to narrate a chapter of the book. Bonus episodes are a series of conversations called "Between the Chapters" to chat about these topics and more!
"In this lively and approachable volume based on his popular blog series, Martin Weller demonstrates a rich history of innovation and effective implementation of ed tech across higher education. From Bulletin Board Systems to blockchain, Weller follows the trajectory of education by focusing each chapter on a technology, theory, or concept that has influenced each year since 1994. Calling for both caution and enthusiasm, Weller advocates for a critical and research-based approach to new technologies, particularly in light of disinformation, the impact of social media on politics, and data surveillance trends. A concise and necessary retrospective, this book will be valuable to educators, ed tech practitioners, and higher education administrators, as well as students."
Credits:
Text in quotes from the book website published by Athabasca University Press CC-BY-NC-ND
BG music Abstract Corporate by Gribsound released under a CC-BY license. Track was edited for time.
Artwork X-Ray Specs by @visualthinkery is licenced under CC-BY-SA.
Audio book chapters produced by Clint Lalonde.
Between the Chapters bonus podcast episodes produced by Laura Pasquini.
0:03
Between the chapters, a weekly podcast discussion focusing on a chapter of the book, 25 years of Ed Tech, written by Martin Weller. here's your host, Laura pasquini.
0:15
We're at chapter 13. I think this is the halfway point. 25. Yeah, just over halfway. On this episode, I'm joined with Alexandra Pickett and Brian Alexander. Welcome to the pod. So happy to have you for between the chapters conversation.
0:29
Thanks for having us.
0:31
Thank you for hosting us. This is great.
0:33
So 2006 and web 2.0 is what this chapter is going to focus on. And this is the user generated approach to the web. So we've already talked about blogs and videos in other chapters past. So this is going to be combination of all that. And what does 2.2 point oh, even mean? So I don't know. What do you think this means? I think I'm going to throw this over to Brian, first of what does web 2.0 mean to you then and now?
1:02
Well, now, it just means that historical phase just refers to the web circa 2000 to 2010. I mean, back then, when we started using the term, it just gave us a nice way of rethinking the web as a web that was more modular, that was more social, that was more literally interactive, that was much more user friendly, in terms of production of content. And that was a, it was a good heuristic. It was nice way of distinguishing the web from, you know, the web circa 1996. And that was very powerful. And then around 2000, timesing around and it really depends. We kind of transitioned away from that to social media. And that was in part the, the shift to mobile devices, which were much friendlier to social media, uploading and consuming content. Partly, it was just because of the sheer size of social media, and the perception that some classic web 2.0 stuff had declined and that people had shifted to social media. So the idea would be someone wasn't blogging so much, but they were using Twitter. Someone wasn't setting up discussions on their own. They were hosting on Facebook, that kind of thing. I think a lot of that was overstated. I think the blogosphere, which is incredibly derided. Still to this day, is enormous. I mean, it's still just absolutely vast. And I think people just use both and but social media really sucked up the information sphere. And now that the worm has turned now that we've gone from a passionate love affair to social media, to what some call the age of the tech lash, people are targeting social media in all kinds of ways, some ways that I find more robust than others. And so I think that's taking down with it, some of the web 2.0 ideas, when you hear some of the criticisms of social media, and you hear some of the recommendations for what to do about it. There's some echoes back to the 1990s right away from that. So there's an interesting historical recapitulation.
3:11
The chapter is 2006. And I have been involved with online teaching and learning. Since 1994, when we first started the Sunni Learning Network. And it was very exciting time, the advent of this, the graphical interface to the web, and graphical browsers and seeing all that happen in real time. And being involved in online teaching and learning. And not really knowing any better than focusing on on pedagogy rather than the technology. Pretty much from the first day, it was all super heady. And I was, you know, I have always been really interested in technology for educational purposes. And so this time was a very exciting time. And every time something new came out, I would I would test it, I would join it, I I had millions of logins I still do, because every time a new thing would come out, I would I would, I would join it. And I think I joined Twitter either in 2006 or 2007. And my first tweet was, I don't get this this is stupid. That's my act. And, and, and actually the person who turned me on to Twitter, I happen to read a blog post by a woman who was from the new media Consortium. She she mentioned this thing called Twitter and so I just clicked on the link and I went to it and I signed up for it because that's what I do and And that was my first tweet. And so little by little, I started looking at who she follows. And so I started following her people that she followed and, and that was my strategy, it was, you know, to kind of just lurk and see what other people were doing. And then little by little I, you know, started essentially documenting, it was kind of like a diary for me of all the tests of the technologies that I was looking at. And I would say, I tried this thing, and I just signed up for, you know, there would be these, you could get an invitation to try something, they still do it, I think, for some things, but, you know, I would always, you know, email the head of the company and say, tell them, I'm an educator, and I'd like to test your, your tool for instructional, or educational purposes. And, and, and so I just used it that way. And then little by little, I started meeting people and becoming it, you know, interacting with them. I think it's how I first met Brian, I think, you know, I certainly met people like Martin Weller, and George Siemens, and Jim groom. And, and all of these people who owe Howard Rheingold was another person who I met through Twitter, and Twitter became an incredibly powerful
6:28
professional learning network for me, where I could bypass the library, bypass the research articles, and go directly to these people that I consider rock stars, in educational technology, or in online teaching and learning or in, you know, the different areas that they were interested in that I shared affinity or an interest in as well, and just talk to them. And so Twitter was my first sort of thing. And then there were a number, I mean, it was like a flood of, of eye opening experiences in using these tools, often for purposes for which they were not intended. Right. And, and, and testing them. And, and I taught online at the University at Albany, and I used my course, and my students as guinea pigs to test out all these rules, and I made them all get Twitter accounts, I made them all, you know, join delicious, and then D go, and then, you know, we used voice threads and netvibes, to collect all of our, they all had to blog. And so I, I stitched all of these technologies together outside the learning management system, because I hated equally every learning management system that we ever use. And in part, because it was so constricting, you're asking the students to do all these learner centered things to co create with you to create stuff to make their thinking and learning visible to you as an online student. And then at the end of the term, you take it away from them, like I make them, you know, they can't just give me their opinion, they have to write a thought thing, and then they have to use, you know, they have to actually cite stuff, you know, I don't really care about their opinions, I care about how they can support their assertions with with scholarly work, and, and then that all goes away. And there's no easy way to like pull it out of the discussion posts, or pull it out of the learning management system. And so I had all of these, you know, small pieces loosely joined is what we used to call it. And, and like that, yeah, it's I didn't coined that term. But it's part of sort of this open pedagogical way of thinking and of really thinking of the student as a creator of content, which was what web two Oh, was it, at least in the definition that the distinction between web 1.0 and 2.0 and, and I was asking my students to be that engaged to create and co create things with me and with each other, and, and then lock it in the learning management system. I just, it just was antithetical to me. So I had them put these little digital footprints everywhere and, and, and have the experience of writing to the public web. And that was part of my objectives in my, my learning objectives was to have them have that experience of contributing to the readwrite web right and and to engaging, not only engaging and interacting by contributing their voice but listening to these people like Brian that I consider rock stars right, who have been doing This, you know, forever and and who now are so accessible their their thoughts today like part of that experience for me helped me to make these people real, right. So the social web, that social aspect of it helped me to see them and feel them as real. And, and and then it also helped us all to kind of create this really an interesting community of people who shared an interest in stuff. And I wanted my students to experience that too. So web two, oh, for me, was an incredible period of time that probably lasted well beyond, you know, what the article says, you know, when it started all going south, and in fact, that was a surprise.
10:45
Okay, so I'm going to back this up a little bit, because we're jumping to another chapter that's ahead. And I'm gonna keep us in web 2.0. Because I don't want to get into social media just yet. So thinking about my own experience, my introduction was actually, through my Friends of the Library, I'm a secret librarian by heart. And they introduced me to the focus on like the different flicker and delicious you mentioned Digg, yo, it was actually about organizing and getting the metadata and curating in different ways, and also sharing of resources and content, because you're jumping to the social, which is fine. But let's just stick to the web 2.0 side of it, because I think what we forget about besides signing up for these different resources, wiki was there, we had some ways to create little spaces and tools. I love that you talked about tying them together. But these utopia of web 2.0 was supposed to deliver a something, before we even got social with Twitter and Facebook, that I thought was just kind of magical to go and find really well curated list or shared folders or content, that really before we even got to like know, the personal, on its own, I think had a unique value to the digital traces and spaces that we were creating. I don't know, was I wrong to think about that?
12:03
I agree completely. And I think that's one of the ways unheralded now that web 2.0 spirit succeeds. I mean, I'm just I'm just listening to Alexandra. And I'm just nodding isn't Yes, yes. This is great. I mean, I remember each of these steps when, in when delicious took off. And when we had all these great, great early tools, and people forget that podcasting was a web 2.0 time. I mean, the term itself comes from 2004, right. And so we had all these thoughts, on the one hand, we it was more social, and that you could interact with people more easily. But as you say, it was a great way to corral the vast resources of the web. So you could do that by following someone's blog, who would give you information on where things were going. And of course, you could follow that through RSS, and RSS readers. You could do that through social bookmarking through folksonomies. And all of these are now just part of the web. You know, we're we're so many things are naturally tagged your YouTube videos, for example. But if you look, even at some of the behemoths of social media, you think about Pinterest. I mean, that's another way of following that idea of just trying to wrangle all these digital objects into a place it kind of bottom up DIY, lowercase D democratic curation, I think that spirit is still there. I mean, their ancestors to that spirit, you can think about, you know, of course, I barians. We could also think about people who used to make audio or video tapes for other people or tape mixes. And we still have that that spirit and that ideal, perfect rate. And that's a great extra. I mean, Alex is pointing out the power of Student Voices of students, seizing part of the open web and making a mark on it, and doing so in a way that shows their thinking they're learning how they're progressing. And we still have that, as part of as part of the web. Even I mean, it's kind of a web 2.0 is kind of the Secret History of the web as we know it now.
14:03
So I guess the end of this in 2009, is what you want to dispute, Alex, a little bit around the web 2.0 is dead. Or this is where Mark gets into the idea. If you're not paying for it, then you are the product comes out of that like us using these spaces and all the signups what does that mean to put your information into it? And that morphs a bit around the end of that? I think,
14:26
so. I didn't really the thing that surprised me was when you know you and oh my goodness, the woman who's in Vermont, red hair, no Middlebury Where? Oh, Amy Kalia. Yeah. And who was the other one started deleting their Twitter.
14:52
Ultra water system. Oh, yeah. I
14:54
remember Chris Shaffer. It started that as well.
14:56
Oh, yeah. Like, like, like this. That was one and that was Not that long ago. And, and it really shocked me. And it was what introduced me to this notion that Martin talks about in the chapter about, you know, us being the product and and that being sold, I never really, I never really felt that I understood that I didn't understand that. And I kind of, I guess ignored it in my sort of, like Pollyanna way, I just went around and spread my stuff everywhere, right? And, and I was very, very open, you know, and really thinking, I don't have any secrets, and I'm not afraid, because I feel like I'm in control of my, of what I do, I, you know, I think and I tried to teach my students that to, to, you know, you have to be, like, in any city, you don't walk in some streets at certain times, for certain reasons. On the net, you don't, you know, give out your social security number or whatever, you know, you have to be smart, and I wanted to be there so that I could have the weird experiences that I did have. So that I could then guide my child who was young, very young at the time, and, and, and my students, and so I felt like, like all of these people, like I had colleagues at the time, who would say I can't be in Facebook, and I can't do Twitter stupid and, and, and, and I kept thinking you are going to be teaching my child are teaching the people who will teach my child, if you don't learn how to do this, by having your own experiences, how are you going to help her learn how to do it, and then so you know, I felt really obligated actually, to be out there and, and learning how to do it responsibly and safely and, and so this all came quite as quite a big surprise to me, I didn't understand what the companies were doing with our data. Right. And I know it did, like, no one really thought of it at the time, that standard and, and I i and so I got educated by Adrienne, by Amy and by you and by all of those who started posting instructions on how to delete their stuff. And, and I had such mixed feelings about it because I had had such incredible experiences in my utopian stupor. I'm thinking that it was, you know, me and you and Brian out there, like interacting on stuff that was like, interesting and important to us. And, and meanwhile, I didn't know that underneath the covers, that's, you know, stuff was happening, what all kinds of stuff was happening, I just didn't really pay attention. So yeah, it was very, it was a weird awakening, I guess to to that, more bleak side of of it. And I'm still grappling with trying to get my head around it and understand it better. You know, I don't know, I thought that that part of the chat, you know, the the way that Martin explained things in the chapter did help, that helped me to understand some of that, because I kind of glom it all together. For me, it was not just a way to organize the content, it was also the social aspect of it, right. And, and also the use of technology for academic and professional purposes that involved connection, and interaction with other experts or people who shared affinity for the topics. And it was about teaching and learning. And it was about sharing what you know, and it was about helping students to understand and other faculty because I'm in charge of faculty development, helping them to understand how to leverage technology for academic and professional purposes to take control of that, and to use it in learner centered ways. That whole notion of the
19:05
you know, the the content creators users as content creators, really for me is about in education is about learner centeredness. So instead of me creating a video to explain the research process, I asked my students to pick a tool and and they can choose powtoons. They can choose whatever the Animoto they can do whatever they want. And they actually don't even have to do it in a video. They can write a poem they can I want to give them the agency to choose how they want to make their thinking and learning visible to me. And you can do that with these technologies. With these tools. Students have the ability to represent themselves how they want to articulate themselves in media that they want to and to me that's so incredible, and so powerful and But just give extends your toolbox your your ability. And by toolbox, I mean, your pedagogical tool, you know, I don't know, I still kind of grapple with the reality, you know, that, that these are businesses that have perhaps sometimes, you know, not my best interest at heart, and, and that these are also incredibly powerful tools that help me to express my pedagogical self in ways that I wouldn't otherwise be able to. But anyway,
20:38
oh, there is the other side to that. And it's something that we're learning. And the reason I asked herself Alex is for that. And Brian, because we talk about digital storytelling like this is the biggest proponents that I know you are a fan of Brian, and it's just changed in that decade of when web 2.0 shut down to 2019. I wrote a blog post in 2019 that says, Where am I auditing myself online? Because we never thought of it back then in the early aughts, the mid aughts, I don't think so.
21:09
Well, I think we think this is a fantastic time for digital storytelling. I mean, this is my most recent book, I had an academia next I had a chapter which I know would irksome people, but tried to imagine that we look back over the past 30 years and think of this as a creative Renaissance time. I mean, we're we have experienced tools of creativity and publication being democratized. And, you know, people will say, well, that's Paul, that's probably LSU utopians, well, actually, most Renaissance is have also been terrible times in other ways. If you look at, you know, the Italian Renaissance or the Scots Renaissance, but but the point was that we that we have had this that if you look at YouTube, on the one hand, you could say, yes, YouTube has a lot of content that you might not ever want to see. Yes, YouTube, its algorithms. We're privileging content in ways that, as far as we can tell, either emphasized extremism in terms of emotion or politics. But at the same time, it became the world's single largest cultural meeting place, it became a fantastic place for people to get their creations out in front of other people, and also to have conversations with them. I think both of these can be true at the same time that that these platforms can enable what Shoshana Zubov deems surveillance capitalism. And the same time, they can support an incredible amount of creativity. And if you think the past 10 years, in addition to those platforms, the tools for creativity have just gotten easier and easier. They've become simpler in many ways. If you look at the mobile app world, there's just so many storytelling creation tools out there. I think this is something that I celebrate, I'm a little nervous of some parts of the tech lash in that they seem to want to make this sharing more difficult. I mean, ending section 230 in US copyright law, for example, would definitely make it much more difficult for people to publish and share. But I think we do have all this creativity now. And that's a fantastic thing that we should celebrate.
23:24
It's interesting, I was reading a lot. I like will arraign his his article on how to start fixing the social media web. Because he says it's two things. It's both imagination and regulation that's needed. And the reason why I think we're openly grappling on this episode is because we don't know all the answers, and we're still trying to figure it out. And I love that you called it a renaissance Brian, because in that time, we struggled with any new medium and modes, whether it was books in the printing press, whether it was televisions, and what it's gonna do to wreck our brains. We're still figuring out what to do with this kind of web 2.0 meets social media space. And it's a reckoning that is going to be they'd say, it takes what 10 to 15 years to sort it out. We're in the midst of it, trying to figure it out. And we don't have all the answers because some of these spaces have certain affordances. And they also have certain challenges. So I don't think it's a I think it's a continuum. I don't think it's a disorder that I think it's a where do you fall on that continuum now? And what does it mean? And I wonder about these modalities? Like, I guess the the question that I never asked back in the day, because they were all free, quote unquote, and online. But they gave me a space and a sandbox to play in with y'all. And also discover really cool shit. And get me interested in the things I'm interested in and studying and researching and teaching. So it's not like we could just throw everything out. But what does the sandbox look like? Now I wonder for folks coming on online. And is it sure differently because of who we are as a society, maybe I don't know, these are my questions, I think out loud. And in my head.
25:07
I think that, I'll just say a couple of things that I want to get out of the way. But Alexandra take over the first there's the indie web idea, and both in and out of education. So you get things like Domain of One's Own, you get the reclaim hosting, you get a lot of us who are making content in ways that are not beholden to Bezos or Zuckerberg. And that's a great thing. And the second is, I think people generally have a more tribal attitude towards digital content that we tend to expect the platforms to either be temporary themselves, or to mess with our content. I mean, one of the reasons, one of the many criticisms of Facebook, for example, is their moderation strategy is, is a complete shambles. And they constantly delete content that they shouldn't have to. And you can point this to other places as well like Tumblr, for example, which turned their entire platform into g rated space, basically, overnight. So I think a lot of people have that sense of, of the internet being this kind of more fragile space in terms of contents. Life, I do want to grab one more thing you said, I love your your gesture towards history, because we're still fighting over some of these. And you can see the echoes that, that go through from these other media into the digital world. They, for example, mentioned television, the expression, you're not the user gonna hear the product that was applied to TV first. And right now, I think in many ways, we've just, we've moved away from thinking of television as a terrible thing. And we now romanticize it and think it's awesome. Which is another problem because it lets us excuse all kinds of horrible things to television, you mentioned radio, one of the ways, if you look from say, 1905, to about 1930, all over the world, you had this boom and wild creativity radio, because radio was DIY, you could build your own crystal set, and people were making their own radio stations for their their apartment block or for their house. And then the US shut it all down with the radio act circa 1939 to 32 gave us the FCC and made sure that only big organizations have a lot of capital could afford licensing and to go through policing, the FCC had its own police force, which they still do. And we really chilled a lot of creativity. And I know a lot of people, a lot of actors, since the web began, when Sir Tim berners Lee unleashed on the world, a lot of them want to go back to that when you look at TV executives, when you look at the big IP holders, when you look at people for different political points of view, they want to go back to that big heavy gateway gateway production. And that argument is still out there. And you will hear it this year as people talk about what to do about the radicalization of the internet and so on. So those are just a couple of things. Alex, I went on to I'm sorry, please, you take over?
28:17
No, no.
28:19
No know,
28:20
where are we today? I mean, from my perspective, which comes from online teaching and learning and, and really trying to leverage technology and innovative ways to help Express pedagogy in some way my pedagogy in some way or learning presence or teaching presence. There are tons of tools out there that still allow us to do that. And the learning management systems that in the early 2000s were horrible, you know, are still horrible, but they're, they're better in many, some are better in some ways. You know, I still rail against the box but and but there are tools out there that have survived Brian, you mentioned, you know, YouTube, which I leverage and Vimeo. And, and, you know, in various ways, both in terms of creating stuff and leveraging existing stuff into curated playlists that are embeddable, for example, that that whole, you know, ability to embed things for instructional purposes within the context of a of a private space for students is pretty cool. And, and, you know, I've made some attempts to get out of some of these things like I've tried DuckDuckGo and, and I created a space in this thing called Daya spore. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's like supposed to be Free, you know, Facebook like thing. But when I was in this is some years ago now when I first set up my account there, there was some, you know, Eastern European guys not any of my friends so like it you know, I've posted some things there but you know, it's it's like I want to be where my people are you know what I mean? And so that forces me into into Twitter and Facebook and and now more and more a little bit of LinkedIn. But you know, I love Twitter actually for a bit like I think many of us did, because it got you know, when your news when you're when your news person and Oprah are talking about it, it like lost something for us they didn't use the words in weird ways, right? Like, this is a long time ago now I'm dating myself again. But yeah, it got a little weird. And but I came back and, and and, um, now you know, I I'm in there and interacting and and, you know, learning and sharing my learning in there again. And my connections are, you know, I continue to use Facebook and in spite of the fact that I have family members who will refuse to do it right. So I don't know, you know, today, things are different.
31:26
Yeah, I will say your quote though, I want to be where the people are remind me of the Little Mermaid Aereo wanting to go where the people are. And I think that's the biggest thing is web 2.0 shifted. Martin talks about the end of the chapter, there's a hype and he's very embarrassed about his excitement. Well, we all were excited because it connected us to like ideas and things, but also people is what it will vote to, and
31:50
I'm not embarrassed. And when I read that, I was like, Oh, you know, oh, mine wasn't just hype, Martin. You know, I mean, and, and I mean, I felt it was palpable. I was passionate, I was connected. I said, I mean, I still feel like I am and I am in part, you know, who I am? And what I know, as a result of that. And that time, you know, and and what I learned during that time, and I am not embarrassed by it, because I think that utopian Pollyanna kind of view that I probably still have. You know, I think there's there's something there that I and I still say the same thing about Second Life, they are something they're
32:43
well, this is positioned before the Second Life chapter. So don't worry, you'll get to hear about that next week. But before we wrap, I was wondering, is there any kind of question you'd like to pose to Martin or the community about this topic that maybe we can have a think on based on our kind of retrospective and thoughts to this?
33:02
One question is to ask about the impact of automation on web 2.0 on social media. So I don't mean robots, I mean, AI and algorithms. And then a second is, oh, gosh, I have so many questions and be really curious to think about how copyright advances. I mean, you know, copyright has been in many ways, the big demon, or a big devil for the open Internet since the beginning. And I'm really curious where they see that advancing. And on the one hand, we had the December, congressional bill included increased, increased legal sanctions for people for streaming, supposedly pirated content. On the other hand, Disney hasn't pressured Congress to extend copyright, which is a big shock, since they're one of the biggest players and tightening copyright restriction. And then I'd also wonder what the what they think about the the LMS is, you know, to my mind, in many ways, the LMS pedagogically is is pretty staggering. We've got a set of tools that are more or less mature, they do certain things, and we know from the campus computing survey and other resources that the faculty underused the heck out of LMS is that most of the exciting tools are either ignored or barely touched. So I'm wondering where they see the LMS headed in the future. And then the last question I would ask is about radicalization. Did they see the structure of the internet changing as different national governments or other institutions tried to crack down and reduce and prevent radicalization, and we've seen some signs of that in Britain and France. How would that play out in Germany? General and also how that play on particular for education.
35:05
Now, those are all awesome questions, Brian I, I did Oh, an echo them my interest would be in higher education in particular and what the what insights or changes or or ramifications might be seen in terms of of the effect on on higher education. He did talk in the chapter a bit about that the granularity of education, and he did mention micro credentials. And, and, and, you know what all that means, I think, I think we're all thinking about, you know, where we are right now. And COVID has a an aspect of this that is pushing things, you know, to go much further more quickly, with with fewer, with much less training than one would like, for some of us. Right. So that would that would be interesting, you know, to sort of think about in terms of higher education, quality. I liked what Brian was saying there at the end, regarding the LMS. I'm always, you know, I wrote a blog post, I think it was in 2008. And the the title of it was the CMS is a dinosaur and you know, what happened to them? What back then it was called the Course Management. And this was in 2008.
36:42
is such a better term for it, because it's not about learning management system. It's about the course backend. It's about course administration. So
36:50
it is it's like, Yeah, exactly. You know, whenever they in a learning management system, they call something a blog. It's like nails on a chalkboard for me that. You know, most people if you don't, if you're not trained, you don't know how to do an online discussion. Well,
37:09
listen, I think you will enjoy Alex, if you haven't listened to it. I never listened to haven't listened to her LMS rant, I had a panel of women. Uh, we went off on the LMS. So don't worry, it's good. I want to listen to it. Yeah, good. Well, I just want to say I think I didn't suspect this. Well, I should have suspected by who I brought on. But we have so much to say about the web 2.0 and where it's brought us. And I would love to hear other people's questions, because I have so many of them that really are instigated from this point, and development of how we use the web and had more users on the web. So Martin, thank you for this chapter that I didn't think was going to be that big of a thing. But turns out I have way more questions now. So this makes it a good thought piece. So thank you, Brian, and Alex, for conversing about this chapter with me. I really appreciate it.
37:58
Thanks, Laura. Blast to see you blessed to see you too. Brian. Awesome to chat about this stuff. Thanks for inviting me.
38:06
It's great talking with you both. Thank you so much. You've been listening to between the chapters with your host, Laura pasquini. For more information or to subscribe to between the chapters and 25 years of ITT tech visit 25 years dot open ed.ca