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"Healing attachment wounds and creating a sense of safety in relationships requires understanding and working with the nervous system."
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Hello and welcome to Plenty. I have an amazing episode for you today. It is with Jessica Baum, LMHC. She wrote this book, anxiously Attached, becoming More Secure in Life and Love. She is the founder of The Relationship Institute of Palm Beach, which has provided couples therapy, family counseling and addiction therapy in South Florida since 2016. She's been a therapist for over 10 years and she has helped thousands of clients with her unique approach to healing,
which includes connecting the nervous system with our ability to attract secure, lasting love. It is very rare to find a therapist who understands how our nervous system stores our memories, and then how our nervous system, if, well our nervous system, is creating our reality, whether we are doing that consciously or not. So today we are diving into the different states of the nervous system,
the different attachment styles, how the different attachment styles are formed in childhood, oftentimes when we are infants and even in the womb of the mother, what to do if we have an anxious attachment style or an avoidant one. How we can really create that sense of safety and how quantum physics and the law of attraction and manifestation and the energetic frequency of nervous system states actually impacts our ability to have what we want and to be in great relationships.
It's a really juicy episode and you are going to love it. So enjoy. Welcome to Plenty. I'm your host, Kate Northrop, and together we are going on a journey to help you have an incredible relationship with money, time, and energy, and to have abundance on every possible level. Every week we're gonna dive in with experts and insights to help you unlock a life Of plenty.
Let's go fill our cups. Please note that the opinions and perspectives of guests on the Plenty Podcast are not necessarily reflective of the opinions and perspectives of Kate Northrop or anyone who works within the Kate Northrop brand. Hello. Welcome Jessica. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy you're here. We are gonna talk about attachment styles, we're gonna talk about attachment,
we're gonna talk about the nervous system. This is a topic that is very near and dear to my heart as somebody who is by default, anxiously attached and who has done work to become more securely attached. Okay, so let's start with what is an attachment style? Oh, wow. So An attachment style is really a set of embedded patterns that we develop when we're really young and there are four different categories that people can kind of fit into.
So there's secure, there's anxious, there's avoidant, and then there's fearful. And so depending on how you connected to your primary caregivers and how your nervous system developed, you can fit into one of those categories. And I can go into each one if you want me to. Yeah, I will. I would love to know more about, I know a lot about anxious attachment,
but the other ones, and then I've also heard, and I'm sure there's just like different frameworks and and philosophies, but I've also heard about like disorganized attachment style. Is that A thing? So disorganized is fearful. Okay. And anxious is often referred to as ambivalent. Those are the scientific terms. Okay, got it. Yeah. So, Okay.
So what are, what are those for in the way that you speak about them? Well, secure are make up a bulk of our population, but unfortunately we're becoming less and less secure and due to a lot of reasons, which I could talk about. Yeah. But those people have an inherent sense of trust in the world. They have an easier time getting close in relationship.
They don't have big abandonment wounds, so they just have a lot of flexibility. And they couple, well with different other attachment styles. It doesn't mean that they don't have work or they don't have issues or they won't be activated. It just means less, less activation or easier time getting back to their baseline. Okay. Then there's avoidant, A true avoidant is someone who didn't get emotionally met that well.
So they, they tend to be more focused on career or left brain, like logical things. Their emotional IQ can be not as empathic sometimes or they just shut down in relationship. So the other extreme is anxious and anxious people, they selfa abandon because they're, they got inconsistency, I would say inconsistency is the hallmark for anxious. So they never want know when the shoe's gonna drop.
So they actually left their body a little to attune to their primary caregiver to meet their needs. So those are the more codependent type people one eye identify with. And then there's fearful, which can be called disorganized. Okay. And that can happen when an infant doesn't feel safe to either go towards or away. So they can be very trapped in their body.
So in relationship they really struggle with where to be in relationship to the other person. Yeah. So you have all of these different embedded patterns which are really embedded in our nervous system. And you might have a style or a type of way you react when you're scared. Yeah. Which can tell you, you know, do you selfa abandon? Do you become more selfish?
Do you isolate? Do you shut down? Do you act out? And then you are embedded pattern coupled with another person's embedded pattern becomes the relational pattern. That's why you might be anxious with one person and avoidant with another. Interesting. So it's not as simple as you fit this one category, you just might have tendencies here, but in different relationships you'll have different things that might come up for you.
Like I can be avoidant with a very anxious person. You know, like it can feel like a little overwhelming for me. Right. I get that. I have felt that way too. I mean, in a similar way, I would imagine as like those of us who operate more primarily in our feminine will evoke other people who operate, you know,
will evoke the masculine in other people. Like I have girlfriends and actually some guy friends too, where even though in my primary relationship in my marriage, I mostly embody more the feminine role. I have some friendships in which I embody more the masculine role because they're so in their feminine that I'm like Right. Being in that. Yeah. Yeah. So we can be,
I mean I know that's a completely different framework, but Yeah. Well the science, we never refer to masculine or feminine of course, because that's putting us a label on things. But yeah, like if you're a personality is stronger in a certain dynamic, yeah. You're gonna kind of take the lead more alpha type role. Exactly. Yeah. So I get that.
I've done that too. So were you already in your therapeutic practice? Like were you already a therapist when you discovered attachment styles? Or was that part of your training and like why did you, I mean, I think it's obvious you shared a lot of your story, so obviously you know, you, you were working on your own attachment stuff, so you wrote a book about anxious being anxiously attached specifically,
but what, what was it that brought you to this topic to wanna devote an entire very well researched book to it? Oh my God. I mean there's so many different layers to that. When I was really young and I write about it in the book, you know, I struggled a lot with codependency and so codependency is thrown around a lot. And I learned that I had to be hyper independent and I learned that I needed to self-regulate all the things which you really,
that's not how you heal and that's not the direction you should be taking in. But I did read Facing Codependency and that book really resonated with me and, and, and self-help resonated with me. And I became a therapist. And it wasn't until my own personal life that I really struggled in relationship that I became an Imago therapist, which is a specific type of couples counseling.
And I was like, wow, I have so much work to do on myself, you know? And started to do my own work and started to work in my practice with attachment theory and, and started to see these dynamics, particularly the anxious, avoiding dance play out and really started to help people kind of work through their stuff and how much our closest relationships become these catalysts.
And I just was seeing in my own life and in my practice what was working. And I was like, so many people struggle with this. So many people are suffering in the way that I have. Like, people need this information. Totally. They really do. And one of the things I love about your book in particular, as opposed to other books I've read about attachment theory is how deeply connected your work is to the nervous system,
which is like, I have this love affair fascination with the nervous system that started when I read a book called Patriarchy Stress Disorder, which I don't know if you're familiar with it, by Dr. Valerie Rain. I think I read it in 2019. And ever since then, I'm just like, this is amazing. This is so amazing how much it impacts our,
our lives. And one thing that I found is that folks go to talk therapy to work out their stuff, which is great and doesn't always meet them at the point of the somatic patterns and at the deeper unconscious because like we can't really talk ourselves out of something that is in our body. So what do our attachment styles have to do with our nervous system?
Let's start There. Everything, our attachment style is really like, basically you're saying anxiously attach, your nervous system responds in a particular way. When it feels threatened and scared or avoidant you, your nervous system shuts down or moves into sympathetic activation. And basically attachment theory is an extension of nervous system regulation dysregulation. How you feel safe in relationship is all about your attachment style and your nervous system,
your automatic nervous system. So you don't even have a choice, right. As to when you start to feel like a neuroception of not feeling safe. Neuroception, can you define that? Yeah. So like my neuroception right now is pretty safe. Like I feel calm in this room, but I might have like a history or, and I do have a history and code it in me that something can set me off and to fight flight freeze.
And it's might be different for you than it is for me. So we are constantly scanning our environment for safety and threat. So if I'm in a ventral state of connection, you and me are flowing, we're making eye contact, there's a sense of openness. We're in our highest evolved state. But the second my nervous system senses something scary, I might shift down into sympathetic or dorsal,
but probably sympathetic where your heart starts racing. You know, you start to start to fight or flight, you start to get a little anxiety. Yeah. So we're constantly, all the time taking so much information in and our, we're scanning our environment. We even do this when we sleep or we're even scanning our environment when we sleep. Like I've,
I've, I've stood up from my bed and been like to my partner, where are you going? And he'll be like, the bathroom. And I'm like, my neuroception around abandonment is still working while I'm sleeping. Isn't it wild? This Is amazing. Our bodies are fascinating. So when you talk about dorsal ventral and sympathetic activation or arousal, so does ventral and dorsal,
of course, the only thing I think about is a dorsal fin of a dolphin. So do they have to do with the front and back of the body or not? No, no. I Would say Like ventral has to do with the upper part of your body. It's our social engagement system. Okay. It's a lot of Steven Porges work and dorsal actually has to do with more like a lower part.
Okay. So it's like dorsal, sympathetic, ventral, but then they're all mixed in different ways. Like we are not just in one, like if we're having sex, we could be in two different states or like they're, they're combinations. Okay. But our highest evolved state is ventral is, and our lowest state is dorsal. So dorsals like when you freeze and you can't move or you're so scared and you get locked in,
you're like preparing for death. Yes. That is an older way of survival. Great. And just for those who are only listening on a podcast listening app, Jessica was ventral, she was moving her hands around her upper body. Sympathetic was like around sort of solar plexus middle and then dorsal was around like the pelvis area. But now obviously please don't like draw lines.
It's not, doesn't work that way. Okay. But that's just the general, okay. So it has nothing to do with being a dolphin and your dorsal fin. No. Great. So we're clear on that. I can disconnect that association. So if you're somebody who is anxiously attached, what are some of the things that you may experience in romantic relationship?
And it obviously it might come up in business relationships and friendships too. I think the hallmark is inconsistency. So you're always thinking, you know, maybe you're dating someone and they're not texting you back. So your somatic anticipation is, I'm not gonna get my needs met consistently. So that fear of abandonment or that fear of the shoe falling down or, you know,
getting left is always kind of in your neuroception, in your, your subconscious mind. So all the codependent traits, people pleasing, self abandonment. So when you're an infant, you literally leave your body and you attune to your primary caregiver's body. So we're really empathic, we can really read the room. Our sensitivity is high. And those are our adaptive strategies that anxious people have.
And actually it works brilliant for me as a therapist. Beautiful strategies. I stand by them. But yeah, like the, it can feel like too much on, on the body. So can you define codependency for those who I'm sure my listeners have heard of before, but I really liked the way you talked about it in the book. And if you don't remember I'll Just No,
no read it. I mean I have, I'll just pull it out. I have such a hard time with the word codependency personally because there's so much shame like attached to like, oh you must be a people pleaser or all these things. 'cause that's kind of what I identified with myself. And then I learned, part of the reason why I wrote the book is I learned I should be independent.
Being codependent is wrong and being independent is also an adaptive strategy for survival. So what we wanna strive for is interdependency. So we need each other, we need to depend on each other. And it's the safety in learning to depend on dependable people that builds inner security. And so the Safety that comes from learning to depend on dependable people Yes. That builds interdependence.
And that's actually healthy, not independence, not codependence, but the safety of depending on dependable people. Yes. Okay. I mean that's like, I wanna Say that again. Brilliant. So good. Just the way you said it. Well No, you said it, I was just repeating your word. Right. Well I I think that's such an important part.
Like the way you heal is through relationship. Yeah. And it's through the consistency and learning safety, safety is so important. Yeah. And then your nervous system starts to attract safer people and you start to understand that. And you're less likely drawn to the unavailable quote unquote bad boy or bad girl who just, you know, goes sue or Drops. Yeah.
Who has an avoidant attachment style. Yeah. Yeah. And it is common, right? That anxiously attach people will attract avoidantly attached people. Can you talk about why that is Like a moth to a flame and you're listening so brutal. I feel you. It's really, really hard. I mean, there's a charge there. There's a lot of reasons why those two attract.
They're like magnetically pulled towards each other. I think one of the reasons is they're missing parts, right? So anxiously people, anxiously attached people are very lively. They seem very vulnerable, free and emo there's a lot of emotion, right? We have a lot of emotion and avoidant people seem stoic, they seem independent. They're actually very anxious behind all of that.
So like the anxious person sees this like very independent person, which is something they wish they could be. And the avoidant people see sees this person who's like lively and full of feelings and it's like they're just magnets to each other. And it's, it's quite, it can be a miserable rollercoaster ride. It really can without getting some help. Yeah. Yeah.
I dated a lot of more avoidantly avoidant people before Mike, my husband now, and Mike actually, he's pretty securely attached, but definitely like without any healing work on board, he's also anxiously attached. So it's been wonderful to be with somebody for so long who, like we both will move towards sometimes at a, you know, at a wrapping face.
But like, but it is interesting to witness like, because I'm anxiously attached or, or have been like that he will, he sometimes would go into more of an avoidant behavior and so will I. And so that's interesting. I'm glad you brought that up 'cause I didn't understand that, that like, it's more fluid. Yes, it is. And we have protectors and we have pockets of everything.
And I think, you know, it's, it's hard. And I have been there when an anxious person is activated, their developmental missing link was really a parent that lended their parasympathetic nervous system enough. So they need co-regulation to feel secure. They need connection Yeah. To calm down. Yeah. And an avoidant person literally needs space to regulate their nervous system.
Yeah. So they compete in terms of what they need. So one person is running towards, out of fear to feel safety and the other person's running away out of fear to get safety. And then we have this constant loop of fear cycles that are being telepathic. Like you can sense them and the couples never getting into a ventral state of safety together.
Mm. So it can be really miserable. Yeah. So I'm a parent, I have two little girls, one is five and a half and one is eight. And I, I couldn't help while I was reading your book, but think shit, did I, you know, like did I, did I do it well enough with my kids? Because so much of this is in infancy,
right? Like my kids' nervous systems are pretty developed at this point. So what I wanna know for our parents who are listening is at what age is this baked in? How much plasticity is there if you feel like you screwed it up? Because we all want our kids to feel as safe and secure as possible and be, you know, securely attached.
And I, I think my kids pretty much are, but I'm just, you know, how old are your kids? Of course I'm curious. Kids. They're five and a half and eight. Yeah. They're, so they're still actually attached to your nervous system. Yeah. They don't actually complete like about 13. Their nervous system's really individuating 13. Okay.
That's Interesting from what I understand. Yeah. But so you're from womb, like your nervous system is imprinting on them. And so if you haven't done your own work and you were in sympathetic or you know, covid hit or nine 11 hit, like there's research to show that. Like there's epigenetic and there's Sure, you know, things that, that that infant takes on.
So also when you're breastfeeding, if you are in a nervous system state of anxiety that gets translated. So you don't have to be a perfect mom. I think this rupture repair is like 60 to 70%, like kind of attuning to the child, being able to see the child as separate, being able to read what the child needs, being able to look at that,
their emotional needs. Neuroplasticity, which we now know changes. Our brain is constantly changing. I mean, you could read my book. I, I did a lot of my deep healing in my thirties and four like yeah. Not, not that long ago. So there's always room to repair and like just learning how to co-regulate with your kid and really learning how to like,
be there for them when they're really activated regularly over and over and over again. Eventually they learn to internalize you as a safe, as a safety. And they build that parasympathetic up a little. So there's always room for repair, thank God. Yeah. That's really beautiful. 60 to 70%. Yeah. I think it's, I, there's a statistic I should know the number.
I, I feel great about 60 to 70%. I feel great about that. And, and I have been, you know, there's an innate intuitive way that if as a mother you are nourished and relatively supported and you know, well-rested ish, there is a wiring of just like being there and being present and being calm like it is and, and then all the like the oxytocin flowing and all of that.
It does set us up pretty well Yes. For attunement to some degree. However, there's so many things in our society that make that very difficult as a parent. Yeah. And I mean, if you have trauma, it's so hard because that, that's how trauma gets passed down. And I believe in like something called aloe parenting, like so much,
what's it called? Aloe parenting. Aloe parenting, okay. Like So much is put on the mom and really it takes a village and it's not the culture that we're in and we really need a lot of support. And I don't believe that many moms are getting as much support as they truly need. Like, Hard jobs. I, I barely know anyone who I was raising kids.
Like, especially when they were little, little around. My kids are still pretty little, but like once he gets to school age, it's like it for me it's just got a lot easier. But like in those like, no, and then there's this whole guilt about like needing support and a feeling of like, if I was a good enough mom,
I wouldn't need this. And it's like we just really do. Absolutely. I mean it is a tough job and I, I do think we're meant to like live in more community, have aunts around and grandparents Yes. People that we can safely like our baby is safely attached to. To, yeah. And attached to. Okay. So this is great.
So I, one thing that I was talking to a guest earlier today actually was about, it was with Alexander Rock. So if anybody wants to listen to the episode, who actually is a really also good friend of Ruby Warrington and also had a lot of help on the books. So that was kind of cool. I was like, oh, Ruby's in the room energetically Love Her.
She's the best. She helped me a lot. She has the same birthday as my daughter Ruby. April 8th. April 8th. Aries fire Eighth, April the ninth. It's Eighth. It's her eighth. It's the eighth. Because when she said that I was like, what, how many rubies were born on April 8th? April 8th. I only know two rubies and they were both born April 8th.
Anyway, we were talking about this book called Mothering from Your Center by Tammy Lynn Kent. And in it she shares a story of this woman that she met who was raised in a village setting. And this woman was four years old when she realized that she had come out of one specific woman's body because all of the mothers mothered all of the babies. And she was literally four before she realized only one of them was her biological mother because they all felt like mothers.
So what would be the impact on that kind of scenario for the nervous system? I think that like, you know, I can't speak to all of the mother's nervous system, but if there's a sense of safety around grandma and sister that the baby is held and that the mother gets these breaks. Yeah. You know, I think that that baby gets a lot of attention and nurturing and love and it,
and it can't hurt the baby if those systems are in safety and if the baby feels safe in the presence of those people. So it's not, if I'm understanding correctly, it's not important that all of the co-regulation and all of the attunement comes from the mother or the mother and the father. It's that it comes from a safe adults. Yes. Not like a different one every day.
Yes. Right. But like a small group of safe, consistent, dependable adults. Yeah. Yeah. And we've taken more than one person. So we take in our mother, obviously there's the, the strongest bond there and, but we take in our father, we take in our aunt, we internalize them as as attachment patterns, as like we take in the essence of,
of everyone that we're close to and we're that small So beautiful until the age of 13 ish. Well we're always taking in people, right. Like I'm taking you in right now. Yeah. You know, and I think the closer you get to someone, the more they imprint on you. And I think, I believe that we take in the essence of people all the time and we can take them with us.
So something you talked about in the book that I'd never heard anybody articulated exactly this way was about quantum physics and the way in which our, because everything is energy. Our thoughts actually are energy and therefore they do actually create like call to them. So can you talk about as, as, as you know, just as this transition of like we're always taking in people,
we're always taking in their essence, we're always taking in their energy. What does that have to do with quantum physics and what does that have to do with how we actually are attracting people? 'cause you said like we will like magnetize people based on our energy. How does that work? That's a really good question. So we have like subconscious or implicit memory in our body.
And so we are I guess telepathically kind of going through fear. If their fear is in there, it's being kind of sent out into the universe. What's interesting is when you work through the trauma, you can kind of work through that memory and kind of dissipate it. But, and and our automatic nervous system, the state in which we are in actually dictates our thoughts.
So our, if we're in a eventual, we're gonna have a very, like you're my friend and the world is okay and life is okay if we shift into another state, like we start, we shift out and our thoughts change. So if we're carrying a lot of trauma, a lot of subconscious trauma, we're gonna have a lot of like kind of thoughts that are more fear-based.
And so we'll be projecting those out into our relationships or in any situation like that. And then we tend to recreate our original wounds slash trauma because they live in us and I believe they're being called to be healed or held. Yeah. But unfortunately they sometimes just get recreated, which has happened for me too. The, the biggest caveat I'll say is if you're listening and you're like,
man, I keep recreating this core wound of being left or abandoned or whatever, there's always an opportunity to do your work. So it's always coming up and bringing it to a safe person. You might not be able to do the work with the person you wanna do the work with, but you can always do the work. So if, if you have,
like, if you keep attracting the same kind of partner, the same feeling inside of you keeps getting replayed it's core wound, it's living in your body and it's a memory and it needs to be unpacked with someone who can hold you in enough safety and enough ventral for it to come out of your subconscious or your implicit memory system embedded trauma to your consciousness.
And you can start to work through it that way. But that only happens with a lot of right hemisphere to right hemisphere safety built between people. And is the best setting for that in a therapy setting where somebody knows how to work with the nervous system and healing? Or can people do this on their own? Does it depend? I'm gonna be honest with you.
I don't think a lot of therapists like do do Those. I don't either. That's why I'm asking. I Would say like a lot of therapists that are trained in somatics do it and work with the body a little bit more. Therapists that are really doing their own work. You know, if you're going to a therapist and they're fixing you fine, like that's maybe what you need.
But really it's about finding people, friends, people who can hold the suffering that you're experiencing with you. Hmm. So the more holding of the original suffering and it could be infant suffering or 1-year-old, but the more you hold it, you're kind of re-experiencing it. Yeah. And then your nervous system's able to kind of process it. Okay. So the therapist or the friend can't handle suffering or you in pain,
you're not able, you're not able to like go there. So you really can go there with people who've gone there themselves. True. Or have the capacity. Yeah. Something I've noticed with my kids, so I, my older daughter is eight now and when we moved to Florida there were a whole number of things going on in our personal life that were like in retrospect in incredibly stressful.
Just the move was a really big deal. But then also my husband was sick and then he broke his leg and then there was just this stuff going on anyway, so my daughter was having these crazy emotional episodes maybe four to five times every week where she would go into a state where it seemed like she was possessed. And I've n not talked about this on the podcast before.
So it was really in, it was really intense and she would like scream the same word over and over and over again or just like scream and the, she was completely disassociated. Like it was like she was not there and I didn't know know like what to do about that. But I did know enough about the nervous system to be like, I do know that the,
my only chance that getting through this with her and helping her is to stay regulated. So I would sit with her and like to the best of my ability 'cause sometimes she was trying to escape but like hold her like a baby and rock her. And at the same time it was like, I was like, it was so challenging to stay with her in the intensity of that emotion because I realized there was a degree to which like I had never been stayed with.
And so I was doing it for both of us at the same time. And when you work with parents, do you find that their stuff comes up at the age that their kids are, 'cause that's what I find is like as my kids are going through it, it's this opportunity to go back Yeah. And heal and hold something for myself while I'm holding it for them.
Can you talk about like maybe some of the science of what's going on there or the energetics of what's going on there? I mean it's great that you were able to, to hold that. I Mean not every day. Sometimes I had to tap out But Right. And, and it's normal. So, But probably 60 to 70% of the time I was,
when someone we're close to goes into a state like that, it's very normal for us if we haven't done a lot of work to also go into that state. Yeah. We tend to all like play off of each other or telepathically say I'm in dangerous, your system's gonna pick up danger. So it's amazing that you're able to hold that. I think,
you know, there's something called conscious parenting. Yep. Yeah. Ali is amazing. Yeah. And so a little bit of what you're experiencing is the grief around what you didn't get Yeah. Through what you're able to provide. And that's such a beautiful kind of full circle healing thing. And I think I'm, I'm a stepmom or I won't go into it,
but I think kids provide us that space to get more conscious. It's not just our romantic relationships. Totally. So yeah, that's, that's beautiful. Thanks. Yeah. Back to the energetics and the quantum physics. I feel like I got you off track 'cause you were answering my question and then I went somewhere else. So how does it work? Because I think some people will hear about the law of attraction and be like,
that's not true. Like we, there's no way we could just attract what we think about. But you were saying that if we're in a ventral state, it will change our thoughts to one kind of thought. If we're in a more sympathetic state, it will change our thoughts to that kind of sympathetic state. And then is that actually like sending out a signal to the universe that's calling towards us experiences?
Yeah, I mean I, I Mean I think it is, but I wanna know what you think. This is like A topic I'm gonna be writing on. Not next with the, the one probably after, but Okay. I love that really you're talking about in somatic anticipation that is like so are somatic embodiment and our somatic anticipation is what calls a lot of things to us.
And so if we have a lot trapped in the body that we haven't worked through or we're dissociated, we can still manifest. I've manifested so many things in my life, but the felt sense of what I really wanted wasn't held in what I got. Yes. So and so, so we can somatically feel gratitude, love, joy in our body. And that sometimes takes a little bit of work 'cause we have to go through our own suffering in order to clear out space.
Yeah. Like internal space and somatic work. So when we're manifesting or co-creating with the universe, we have to be able to embody the somatic shape of what we want. So if we can't do that, we're just gonna get the material, which is fine, but you might just be disappointed with that right car or that house when it doesn't embody the feeling of home or the feeling of safety or love that you,
that you really want. And then if you learn to practice that felt sense, if you learn to expand your capacity to really feel gratitude, to really feel safe, to really feel joy. Do you think that we need to manifest the stuff? Or like, does it matter to end up having the thing if we already know how to feel that way?
I Think like that's a paradox. You know what I mean? Like sometimes it's nice to, you know, manifest a beautiful space that you're gonna feel different in or, but I think the desire to get to a place to be happy or fulfilled is lessened. Yeah. Because you're already fulfilled in your current environment with your current relationships and you really do have to have the safety and the,
and the love and the support around supporter on YouTube. But like my biggest pet peeve is kind of be like, like learn to love yourself. I'm like, until you are surrounded by love, until you experience love, until you experience safety, you can't create the somatic felt sense of it. Like you have to have an experience of that. And I think that's a lot of where our culture is kind of like shifted where like not a lot of people feel safe or really understand.
So they're just out there like hustling. Yeah. And trying to get this external thing without the somatic embodiment of, of whatever it is they truly want out there. Does that answer your question? It does. No, it's great. So let's say I'm in a relationship, early stages and, or really any stage. 'cause sometimes this comes up with my husband and we've been together for like 13 years,
but, and like, you know, you send the text and then either you see the three dots come back and then it, they're gone or whatever. Or there's just no response. And in my earlier days of dating, not my husband so much, but other people 'cause he was like incredibly responsive. Like he would call me every day and I was like,
what is with this guy? And it was so unusual. 'cause at the time, like men would only text and it would be like days in between and then they would fall off the face of the planet. He would just like call me every day, which of course terrified me. But anyway, that's another story for another day. But let's say you're in this place where it's like,
if you're not seeing the person, it feels like that anxiety or almost like you're addicted to seeing them. And then also if you're apart from them and they're not responding right away or they're not as effusive or whatever, there's a sense of like panic or anxiety or disconnection or like something's wrong and you, you jump to worst possible conclusion because you are in that sympathetic state.
And then your thoughts are gonna be right in that. Yeah. Negativity. What do we do in that actual moment if we've identified like, oh, I do have an anxious attachment style. I know that texting this person five more times is not a behavior that I would like to take part in, but this is so painful. Right. What do I do with this feeling?
Right. Well one, starting to recognize that that's a memory in your system. Mm. That's a memory in your system. So that feeling of discomfort is a memory in your system. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So all, and I my book talks about it like all the sensations that we feel in our body are usually stored memory. Yeah. So connection is our biological imperative.
If we sense disconnection in any way, our system is gonna go into kind some kind of activation. And there is a chance that our neuroception is being activated. And so the pattern of this person texting you every day and then just dropping off is gonna alarm your system. Yeah. And so being so compassionate with that and starting to understand like this is early roots of I might not trust and I,
I think it takes time to trust someone's pattern. Yes. Or start to learn to trust someone. And there's no shame if you stomach drops or if you have anxiety. I mean, it happens. And that's your system's way of trying to alert you to stay safe. So I think the best thing you can do is kind of be, be compassionate,
know something's being awakened in you and you know, if you want to do some work around it, hold it like it's more of an infant memory or a very young part of you that's just scared of being dropped. Hmm. That's beautiful. And what might that like actually look like in the moment? Oh, well let's, let me think about that.
Let's Say you're like sitting in a parking lot. I mean, it's happen at target's. It's, it's happened to me before. Like it doesn't even have to be a romantic partner. You just totally feel like you're gonna be dropped trusting the universe, dealing with the worst case scenario. What if this person is busy kind of talking yourself out of like,
not everybody is that consistent or that available people are going through their own things and like, you know, calling a friend that can co-regulate you. Yes. And if you're really struggling and you have anxious attachment, co-regulation is the best way out. And that's not like calling a friend and bitching, excuse me, am I allowed to say that? You can.
I swear all the time. Okay. It's like calling a friend and just having them say, I'm feeling really anxious right now. Can you be with this part of me, with me? You know, and so that, that would be the best form of it's super ation. Yeah. Okay. That's great. That's great. And you talk about,
you know, there's, there's being selfish, there's being codependent. Right. And then there's being self full. Yeah. Which is what you teach. So what is being self full? So yeah, there's selfless. Oh yeah. And selfish. And in the middle they're self full. And those are automatic nervous system states. So the selfless is like kind of like an activated state of self abandonment.
Selfish is an activated state of focusing only on myself because I'm scared. And self full is a eventual state of connection. So it's not that you're one of these, we shift in and out of these states all day long. But it starts to recognize when am I shifting into this state? When am I shifting into a more self place or a more selfless place where I'm people pleasing?
When am I feeling like an exchange where I can get my needs met and they can get theirs? I can use my voice. And so I talk about this different states and how we shift into those different states to help people understand their nervous system a little better. So it's all kind of related. Okay. That's beautiful. So if somebody knows that they have anxious attachment style,
they would like to feel safer in the world. Right? Everyone. Yeah. Everyone wants to feel safer. Avoiding people too. Right? Right. Yeah. Anybody want disorganize i's fearful, like, right. Like we all, and even if you have a secure attachment, like we can all be absolutely more self full. Right. Partner Or secure person with someone who's really avoidant and they all have some anxious parts come out,
I promise you. Yeah. Like life can always be sweeter. Right? Yeah. And so first of all, I, I think it's quite clear you've made from our conversation, like, anyone can heal at any time. It's never too late. Is there anything else you'd like to say on that? Yeah. You need the right environment where you feel safe in and you need people that you can feel safe with.
Yeah. So you, you need those two things to heal or else you'll just stay in survival mode. And what Would be some examples of the right environment? Like if you're living with a partner who's triggering you all activating you all the time. It's, it's harder you can do your work or an environment that you feel safe in. Like your nervous system can relax and Yeah.
You know, if you're struggling to make ends meet and life is really hard, it's really hard to slow things down and be with your body. Yes. Like your body might, you know, cut you off and not let you go there. And that's a form of keeping you safe from what's in there because you're not able to have the capacity to hold it.
So your body has the wisdom of when, you know, I think the only thing you can do is kind of call in like, I wanna heal, like try to find healing environments, try to find healing people and like try to listen to what warm, receptive, non-judgmental people. Try to invite more of those people in your life and your nervous system will start to attract more of those.
Yeah. So that's what they say, oh, you vibrate whatever. It's really like your nervous system is attracting different people based on like what state you're At. Because our nervous system has an energetic signal Frequency Yeah. That it's putting out. Yeah. And it will attract people who are also vibrating at that same frequency or one that is going to be like,
so this is where I get a little confused. So like, and I'm sure if I'm confused, somebody listening is confused, not because of you, but like, you know, like attracts like, and we also attract our opposites with like anxious and avoidance, Same frequency, But it's the same frequency. 'cause it's the frequency of fear. Yes. Fear.
Fear. Got it. Yeah. That makes sense. And like I've been in a situation, in a relationship where I've slowed down and healed and their frequency was still Yeah. And, and so the intimacy or the vulnerability that shows up when you're with people who are more grounded and the frequency is low, scares the crap out of someone who hasn't done the work.
Yeah. So they're not gonna be able to slow down and meet you and they're, then it's a disaster. Yeah. Well it, I mean, it, it sounds I think maybe not exactly the same thing, but related to what I said earlier when I was used to men that I would go out with and then they would ghost or like, you know,
text me every two weeks or whatever. And then suddenly I had this guy calling me every day. I was terrified. Yeah. I was like, and then I was immediately like, what's wrong with him? But you could have, you could have The, the other problem with that, which if you're listening is there's love bombing. So if you grew up with a lot of neglect in your brain and someone comes in every day and starts to do that,
he wasn't doing that. But like that happens a lot where it's very enticing where your brain's like, wow, this person's making me the center of the world and feeding me this dopamine. And that's a missing developmental link. So that person's gonna be more drawn to the narcissistic love bombing because they didn't get that when they were a child. Interesting. So they're being flooded with the missing neurochemicals.
So, but will it also, like, would it also be offputting to be loved bombed, love bombed? Do you, if you've done your healing, If you've done your healing, it'll be offput The allure lessons Interesting. Yeah. I mean that, that didn't happen with Mike, but it happened with some other people where it was like, I would start dating,
I mean, we're going way back, but like I would date them and then they would be like talking to me with a level of connection and intimacy that had not been earned where it was like really over the top and it was weird. It, it was freaked me Out. Yeah. Like, no one loves you on like Right. Or like they're Infatuated with you.
They have an idea of who you are, but intimacy and vulnerability are not earned. And so it's not really real. But I hate to say that 'cause I think some narcissists really do feel that way. And I think they're being genuine to what, what they're feeling inside. But those, it just, it's a disaster waiting to happen for anyone who has a history of neglect.
Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Narcissism gets thrown around a lot. As a therapist, can you just like give us an actual definition so that we can be discerning In our lives? Yeah. I mean we all have a little bit of narcissism in us. It's totally normal. The narcissistic wound is a very primal wound where they didn't individuate from their mom in,
in that way. And so they look to merge in relationship and they need kind of the honeymoon phase or the beginning merging, help soothe them so they kind of can jump from relationship to relationship to escape their own pain. And then they don't individuate well in so they don't love autonomy or like that because it's a threat to them in some ways. But there's,
that's like the early wounding kind of thing. And then there's all these protectors that they have to avoid, essentially. They have a lot of shame and they never wanna touch shame. So they have all these protectors that to develop in certain ways to like never really, they would fall in like a pool of shame. It would be really hard. It's very hard for them.
They need a lot of support to do the work. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for that. I've never heard that exact definition. So that was really, really helpful. This has been such a good conversation. Thank you for your wisdom and the depth of your research and personal experience. It's very generous. Thank you. And your book is excellent.
Thank you. And I highly recommend it. Is there anything else you would want people to know about being anxiously attached before we tell them where to come find you? I mean, I mean, I know you don't wanna, not to come find you, but to connect with you on the internet. I mean I, I, I want them to know that I've been there,
I lived it, I've breathed it. You're not alone. There are so good resources out there, not just this and that. Healing is really possible. And yeah, it's hard, but it's worth It. It's hard, but it's worth it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So where should people go? Obviously they should buy your book anxiously attached.
That's a great place to start. Is there anywhere else that you'd like to send people to find out more? I have a coaching business, it's be cell full.com. And I have a private practice down here in Florida called the Relationship Institute at Palm Beach. And then I'm on Instagram. It's Jessica Baum, LMHC. And the book is everywhere. So thankfully it's so accessible.
Yeah, It's so accessible and very in depth. Yeah, very in depth. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Woo, that's a wrap. That was so good. Thank you so much for listening. I am so honored that Jessica came and also just really filled up by the richness of this conversation being met,
you know, intellectually, emotionally, on a scientific level. We've got it all here. So if you found this episode helpful, if you liked it, please subscribe, leave us a review. And you know what, just go ahead and text the link to a friend who you know would find this conversation helpful. Thank you for listening and I cannot wait to see you next time on Plenty.
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