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Two longtime music pros (Sensei & Fatboi) go deep on what makes music great. A podcast for music producers, artists, and fans.
Fatboi is a Multi-platinum, Grammy nominated, award winning producer whose credits include: Camoflauge, YoungBoy Never Broke Again, Gucci Mane, Young Jeezy, Rocko, Shawty Redd, Flo Rida, Bow Wow, Bone Thugs-n-Harmony, Juvenile, Yung Joc, Gorilla Zoe, OJ Da Juiceman, 8Ball & MJG, Jeremih, 2 Chainz, Nicki Minaj, Bobby V, Ludacris and Yo Gotti, Monica, Zay Smith, TK Kravitz, Future.
Sensei Hollywood (a.k.a. Dan Marshall) formerly an instructor and chair of the Audio Production program at the Art Institute of Atlanta, is an accomplished musician, producer, engineer who's performed on and engineered multi--platinum records with Big Boi, Outkast, Killer Mike, Chamillionaire, Carlos Santana, Mary J. Blige, Snoop Dogg, Ron Isley, Lil Wayne, Trillville, Monica, and more...
Fatboi (00:00)
Oh man, one of our buddies has been going AI crazy.
okay, I was.
Dan Marshall (00:05)
yeah,
we gotta do an intervention on that
It's like the ring of power. It lures you in. I will use it only for good, but does it really only work for good? I don't know,
Fatboi (00:16)
Yeah, it kinda,
hip hop is rock's little
the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, just because of that title, you can't separate it from all these genres of music.
all music is standing on the shoulders of blues.
and on those shoulders stand rock and roll, country, and hip hop.
Oh man, one of our buddies, one of our buddies has been going AI crazy. He's been going soon old crazy. Kush has been going soon old crazy. Yes. He's been going soon old crazy the kind of, I mean, he's using it as a tool, but for me, I hear it after it's been
Dan Marshall (01:19)
really? ⁓ no, don't don't say it ain't so man. He was Mr Organic from day one.
We got Rihanna in.
Fatboi (01:41)
touched up with Suno, it gives me pause because it's like, ⁓ Suno, okay, it's gonna perfect on something that was already just good and raw the way it was. And now Suno's gonna give its interpretation. Yeah, it takes the interest out of it and turns it into a big commercial.
Dan Marshall (01:59)
polish it up and average it out to everything else. The thing that was interesting about it will get filed down.
Fatboi (02:10)
peace and it's like, okay, I was.
Dan Marshall (02:11)
yeah,
we gotta do an intervention on that guy.
Fatboi (02:14)
In his defense, he is using it as a tool, but he's going down the Suno rabbit hole to where...
Dan Marshall (02:25)
It's like the ring of power. It lures you in. I will use it only for good, but does it really only work for good? I don't know,
Fatboi (02:33)
Yeah, it kinda,
and then, know, kinda, and I'm the kind where, like, if you want me to remix something that you're doing, don't send me the original. Just give me the raw lyrics. I don't wanna hear it. Because I'm going to be influenced by...
Dan Marshall (02:52)
Okay.
Right, then I'm gonna make a
weaker copy of the original as opposed to my whole interpretation of what the song could be.
Fatboi (03:02)
Just let me hear your lyrics. Just give me the lyrics. I don't want the song because I'm going to be influenced by the song.
Dan Marshall (03:13)
Now, like the thing that the AI does that's kind of fun is it'll re, it can reinterpret a song totally different way. There's, but you know, the thing is that should just be like a catalyst for the actual creator to do that, right? As opposed to that's my product, you know, there's, there's guys doing it where they'll, it is fun, but they'll just sit here and like, I pulled this into the computer and made a rock version of this metal song or whatever. And
Fatboi (03:24)
Thanks.
Dan Marshall (03:41)
Now the video is just me nodding my head to this thing the computer did and that's my product and I'll put it on Apple Music. And like, that's a thing? Why don't, it would be cool to watch a band do that or an artist do that.
Fatboi (03:54)
What this is, what I don't like.
Dan Marshall (03:58)
Like an ideator, that's fine, but I want to see a person do that.
Fatboi (04:02)
a person
do it. And what I don't like is Suno taking my creation and recreating it. because for me,
Dan Marshall (04:14)
giving it to somebody else without any credit compensation,
consideration, whatever, not even a mention, a shout out.
Fatboi (04:23)
And the thing is, I wanted to do it that way, I would have did it that way the first time. I didn't want to do it that way. Because that's the common way that everybody hears on the radio. Like, Suno ain't doing nothing so creative. Like, Suno ain't thinking of nothing that ain't out there like that. Suno is just recreating everything that you saw. So are you really being?
Dan Marshall (04:32)
So, ha-
No, it can't!
Fatboi (04:52)
creative when you're just, you're doing a tuned up, finely mixed, because
everything in Suno is mixed perfectly.
Dan Marshall (05:02)
Right. It's got the best of mixing engineers and mastering engineers to average from, you know, and that's kind of what their function is, is to average things out to make it palatable to the consumer. So of course that's going to be polished. But the good stuff is the raw stuff, unfiltered, unadulterated, you know?
Fatboi (05:08)
Yeah.
Imagine, yeah,
imagine, imagine RZA, what RZA would sound like going through Suno. He'd be too clean, too clean, too, you know, and, and, you know, as, as, as producers, we, we like dirt on stuff. Yeah. Yacht-Tomic Dog. And it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, I put dirt in everything I do.
Dan Marshall (05:31)
Someone's doing it right now.
Yacht Rock Atomic Dog from George Clinton.
Fatboi (05:50)
is dirt sprinkled through everything, even though it might sound clean to you. But I have dirt in it. Because dirt is giving it character. And Suno can't recreate dirt the way I want it.
Dan Marshall (05:50)
Hmm.
It
can't recreate the feeling, the randomness. Like, so the guy I'm talking about, ⁓ did a version of some of my favorite, like hard rock artists and Queens, Estonia and stuff. And it's okay. It sounds pretty cool, except I can hear something in the vibrato that's completely, it's the sixth figure, ⁓ in the vibe is the vibrato. And when you hear a fake singer, you know, there's something too good and too regular about it, you know,
Fatboi (06:29)
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's something too good.
But I will tell you this. I will tell you this. And this is even a problem to me, right?
Kush had one, he had one, ⁓ he did like an alternate version of, did several alternate versions of one song. I still like the original of what he did the best because it has the most natural feeling. makes you want to move. But he had several re-imagined versions of it. And one of them was dope as hell. One of them was actually dope as hell. But the problem with this one is, okay,
Dan Marshall (07:07)
You
Fatboi (07:11)
Who's gonna recreate that perfect vocalist? Cause that vocalist sounds good as shit. Can't nobody do that.
Dan Marshall (07:17)
Right.
Right. You're going to get Adele to come in here and, you know, whatever, you know.
Fatboi (07:22)
And
see that now in real world when we when I'm creating records sometimes the singers that I'm working with they sing so good the person that I'm actually Doing the record for can't do that and they don't take the record because they can't do it and and and that's what you deal with when it comes to singers or Anybody that feels like you know, whatever as a producer
Dan Marshall (07:39)
Right.
Fatboi (07:52)
the record that you present to them, if the artist, the demo artist on there is a better singer than the actual artist is, they won't do that song because they can't do it. And that's what you get from Suno.
Dan Marshall (08:03)
See, this is the distinction.
We talked a lot about the difference between a beat maker and a producer. And there's a difference between a singer and an artist in the same way in a similar way. Anyway, like good technical chop singing is not the whole package of an artist in the recording industry, right? You know, they have to have something more. They have to have a look, a character.
⁓ a message or a theme, whereas there are people that just have chops with vocals that can make notes sound good with their mouth, you know? But that's not the whole package. I mean, maybe it should be in a fair world, but it isn't.
Fatboi (08:34)
Okay.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay.
To me, the the best artists are the mimicers. They can mimic. So in other words, ⁓ Michael Jackson, Prince, Beyonce, Chris Brown, ⁓ Usher, ⁓ John Lennon, ⁓ they can mimic.
Dan Marshall (09:15)
So.
Fatboi (09:18)
Whoever wrote the record, if they didn't write it, they can mimic the writer. And if you can mimic the writer, because whoever wrote the record has put the juice in the song already. So the best artists in the world, they take that record and do the meat of what that writer did, they capture that.
And then they put the oohs and ahs and the hee hee and all that after the fact. And that's how that record becomes record becomes theirs. Rod Temperton, however Rod Temperton phrased something or expressed something a certain kind of way, Michael did it just like that.
Dan Marshall (09:48)
Yeah, right.
The best example I have for that is in that movie, Ray, where the nerdy white guy comes up with a song. They're all stuck in the studio. They are all out of ideas. Ray's all frustrated. He comes in it's Ahmet Ertegun I guess, is the guy. And he's like, hey, got this thing and he sings it real square. But it's a cool song. And then Ray goes, OK, I got it from here and does does this Ray Charles thing with it. And that's the best example I could think of of like
Fatboi (10:11)
Ready?
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He puts the ray on it.
Dan Marshall (10:36)
The producer knew it was like, know it will suck when I sing it, but this is what you, this is the form of what you need to do. You need to do your thing on that. That's the handoff there.
Fatboi (10:44)
and put
you on it and give it a life of its own. Have you seen the documentary of the creation of We Are the World?
Dan Marshall (10:56)
No. I need to watch that.
Fatboi (10:59)
Good watch. Stevie Wonder is hilarious. But they were in there and ⁓ they were going through parts and who should sing this part and that part and all that. And there was a part, the Dylan part was coming up and they had the line and they were going through the lines and Stevie, he's hilarious. He told Bob, know, cause Bob kind of said it in a,
Dan Marshall (11:29)
But Bob's got a distinctive singing style, yeah.
Fatboi (11:29)
not not Bob Dylan
and he didn't sing it in a Bob way and Stevie said no Bob you have to sing it like and then he did a Bob Dylan voice. Stevie was mimicking Bob. ⁓
Dan Marshall (11:40)
Yeah.
a better Bob Dylan than Bob Dylan. Right. Right. Bob
was like, I got all these real singers over here. I got to try and no, no, no, no. What makes you special is that you don't sing like them.
Fatboi (11:49)
He's thinking that no!
Yes,
you gotta do Bob. Don't do Stevie. You can't do Stevie.
Dan Marshall (11:58)
And
he was crazy as he wasn't even the worst singer that day. no, Willie Nelson is great. I always thought Huey Lewis and Cyndi Lauper kind of. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Come on, Willie Nelson just does his thing.
Fatboi (12:02)
Probably was Willie Nelson.
⁓ Huey and Cindy, yeah. Even Mike was
looking at them like, y'all gotta be fucking kidding me. Y'all came in here for that? Like, come on.
Dan Marshall (12:17)
He's like, girl. So
some of what you said, I've actually heard, um, I got, I got kind of inspired to do my Queens of the stone age tribute band from this quote from John Mayer. He was, and he was doing all these podcasts like we're doing. Um, and someone's asking about your creative process. What are you doing? He's like, well, you know what? started off mimicking and I, I advise when you get stuck, find someone you admire, you look up to copy them.
Fatboi (12:36)
Okay.
Dan Marshall (12:47)
note for note verbatim, because you will ultimately fail. And where you fail to copy them precisely, that's your voice. So mimicking as a creative process reveals this or like a sculptor chips away everything that isn't, you know, the, elephant or whatever they're sculpting, like that reveals your true voice where you fail to mimic that person precisely.
Fatboi (12:51)
Mm-hmm.
Dan Marshall (13:15)
And that's what reveals the actual art.
Fatboi (13:17)
Well, that's how I got my production chops under me too, mimicking my favorite producers.
Dan Marshall (13:26)
because your own DNA has to creep out somewhere.
Fatboi (13:30)
Yeah, yeah. And I can hear, I still hear the influence of a lot of my favorite producers in what I do, but it's my way. It's my way. Just like in Prince, you can still hear James, you can hear Jimmy, you can hear the Beatles, but it's Prince.
Dan Marshall (13:41)
Hmm.
But it's still print because it's all
mixed together in a unique formula of all those influences.
Fatboi (13:53)
He
made a big gumbo pot and created Prince. When we hear Prince, we hear Prince. The majority, when I hear Prince, I hear Prince, but I hear the makings of Prince in what Prince does. I hear Jimi Hendrix. I hear James Brown. I hear the Beatles. I hear all that all mixed together. Yeah, Shuggy Otis. I hear all that in him.
Dan Marshall (14:13)
Right. All mixed together in one package. Yeah.
Fatboi (14:23)
with the aid of the Minneapolis sound. I mean, ⁓ the Pop Life album, ⁓ that was a Beatles album. It was a Beatles album. If you listen to the sounds, ⁓ the structure of the songs, the strings, the strings, it was a Beatles album. But it took me to be a grown adult to realize like,
Dan Marshall (14:33)
Mmm.
Fatboi (14:49)
I was at LA Fitness working out one day and you know, when, ⁓
Dan Marshall (14:54)
I
believe it's pronounced law fitness. ⁓
Fatboi (14:56)
Laf fitness.
And I, you know, I'm having a good workout when I can just put an album on and just go straight through it. And this day, the Pop Life album was the album of choice. And that album, it just hit me during my bench press set. like, boom, I put the waist down. I'm like, man, this album was a...
Dan Marshall (15:11)
getting invaded here.
I mean...
Fatboi (15:25)
Beatles album, but then if you look at even looking at the artwork of that album, it's a Beatles. was right there. was right there in our faces, but he's so good. Yep.
Dan Marshall (15:30)
He was wearing it on a sleeve, yeah. But that's a statement in and of itself that, you know,
I'm acknowledging it, but I'm launching off from there.
Fatboi (15:43)
And I wonder if Paul and the guys and whoever was, I know John was already gone. I don't think George was gone yet. But I wonder if the remaining Beatles heard that album was like, hey Paul, it sounds like us.
Dan Marshall (16:01)
You know, ⁓
there's another thing Prince did that stayed with me that the Super Bowl show that actually moved me so much to like tears that I went and got a Telecaster to play like Prince. The same guitar he's got. Hold on. I gotta get rid of this cat.
Fatboi (16:06)
Thank
Dan Marshall (16:18)
⁓ And there was a thing in there because apparently this is the backstory. The Foo Fighters had done like a Prince cover or something and they were trying to
Fatboi (16:23)
you
Dan Marshall (16:29)
get his approval on it and he never heard back from him but at that show Prince did a food fighter's cover and he killed it and I was like and that was like the ultimate like yeah you're alright Dave but you know first as a kind of guy I just kind of bust your chops at all times and you know that's
Fatboi (16:48)
And the way Prince looks
at things is like, you don't cover me, I cover you.
Dan Marshall (16:54)
Yeah, right. Right. And I'll also
show you how it was done. Plus he did the only version of proud Mary that I can listen to without thinking it's corny. Like his version of proud Mary on that performance. I was like, yeah, that's the first time that song has worked for me. I was thinking it's like this big Vegas show tune, even when Tina did, it was like too much of this going on. But what he did kind of just got the combination of ingredients correct for me. I don't know what it was, but
Fatboi (17:02)
Yeah.
Well,
know, Prince kind of, and probably was, this is derived from him mimicking his favorite artists. Prince's thing was whatever record that, know, whether he liked it or didn't like it, he always had a thing of this is how that should have been done. He did that for bad.
Dan Marshall (17:43)
right. That's where I'm going with that
like the way he did those cover songs on that Super Bowl performance was like, you know, that was the correct version of those songs in a lot of way and then Purple Rain, of course with the rain and 100,000 people, you know.
Fatboi (17:48)
you
with the rain
and you couldn't fake that. That was not prop. That was real rain. And everybody was scared as hell because Prince is out there with all this electrical and they didn't prep for rain.
Dan Marshall (18:06)
No. That was just... destiny.
I heard some guy was like holding the power wires together by hand because it got chopped off or something right before the show.
Fatboi (18:25)
It literally, but then, you know, I heard one of the producers of that halftime show saying ⁓ it happened that way because God was watching Prince. He wanted to see Prince. So he gave him some props. He gave him some aid. He gave him the purple rain.
Dan Marshall (18:43)
You don't get those kind of moments in life often, you?
Fatboi (18:47)
⁓
man, come on, Dan. And I remember watching that, too. I remember watching that Super Bowl. What man? Like, like, how do you you cannot prep for that? He has a song called Purple Rain. It rains and the rain is purple. Because of the lighting, I mean, it is purple. Like, come on, Happy, whether that's a happy accident, a perfect imperfection.
Dan Marshall (18:52)
That was a special deal there. Yeah.
Right, right, Right.
Fatboi (19:17)
or whatever, it don't get no better than that.
Dan Marshall (19:19)
It does not, it don't get no better than this.
Fatboi (19:22)
It
don't get no better than that right there, man. Like, and I remember that, I might've, don't know, man. I might've almost shed a tear. Cause Prince is one of my favorite artists, period, growing up.
Dan Marshall (19:35)
I mean,
like when I was a kid, I didn't even respect him. But as I grew up, that music started to get into me ⁓ through the side door, kind of. And at that point in my life, I kind of stopped doing music, you know, for a little while. And I was in a and I was like, that made me go, what am I doing, man? You know, what what what am I even doing with the gifts I've been given and kind of.
Fatboi (19:38)
You
Mm.
Dan Marshall (20:03)
reinvigorated that desire in me. Which is saying something, because
Fatboi (20:06)
Hmm.
Dan Marshall (20:08)
I'm kind of a cynical, holds together kind of guy. To be moved by a performance like that is a pretty rare thing.
Fatboi (20:14)
Yeah, it ⁓ was one of one. That performance, one of the greatest halftime performances in Super Bowl history since the performances, since performance one with Michael.
And he's still up there.
Dan Marshall (20:28)
Hold on, I
got a cat on my mixture. Look at this moving moment and this stupid cat's like, hey, let me help you out over here.
All right, I'm not gonna catapult him or anything. But man, we're all over the place today, but I think we've got some good clips. There's some good clips in here. Maybe it's just a clip show, because honestly, editing these hour long deals and then it just gets copyright infringed anyway. I'm like, we gotta figure something else. Well, I know there was one other thing you.
Fatboi (20:43)
Ha ha
Yeah, amazing show.
Yeah, we got good clips.
Dan Marshall (21:08)
we were going to talk about, might as well get it. well, was thinking, well, Jean, you mentioned Gene Simmons before and the word show, he had something to say about rock and roll hall of fame versus there should be a hip hop hall of fame. What do you think about that?
Fatboi (21:09)
George, not George, ⁓ Gene. Gene, Yes, rock and roll all the time.
Well, did he say it should be a hip hop hall of fame?
Dan Marshall (21:29)
I think it was more like, don't know. I didn't get the quote, but like they, this person shouldn't be in the rock and roll hall of fame. should have its own category.
Fatboi (21:32)
Well.
Okay. What? Okay. So what I get to, cause I watched the clip and I get what he was trying to say. He was trying to say, cause it's called the rock and roll hall of fame. Hip hop isn't rock and roll. So it shouldn't be there. But the thing is the rock and roll hall of fame is all genres inclusive. So, and
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is really the music hall of fame because it's all genres. Yeah. And they probably went with Rock and Roll Hall of Fame because that's just a cool ass name to call it. But all music, all genres of music belong there and hip hop. And the crazy thing is, you know, hip hop absolutely
Dan Marshall (22:11)
So maybe it's just the semantics of what they're calling it.
Right.
Fatboi (22:34)
should belong in the, if it was going towards what he was saying, hip hop absolutely should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame because the King of Rock is is Run DMC, the Kings of Rock. Hip hop found its footing.
in music, kicking down doors on MTV with Rockbox, the marriage of rock and hip hop. So absolutely hip hop should be there because Run DMC kicked that door in with rock, fusing rock and hip hop. So absolutely from that standpoint, yeah, we should be in there. Now, I will say this.
Dan Marshall (22:58)
with the marriage of rock and roll and...
Literally and figuratively. Yes.
Fatboi (23:20)
I do believe at the same time, I, another good friend of mine, Quam, Quam Scott, in,
Dan Marshall (23:28)
He's another one's real shy about his opinions. ⁓
Fatboi (23:31)
Hey, Kwame,
I love Kwame. Kwame makes for good, interesting conversation. He keeps good, interesting conversation. Yes, he really is. And he keeps my brain going. And I love when he poses these questions. But I disagreed with Kwame posed this question on Facebook. I disagreed with Kwame in the fact of all genres.
Dan Marshall (23:37)
No, no, that guy is a debater. Yeah, yeah.
Fatboi (24:01)
should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame because it's all genres. They just call it the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. But I agree at the same time, it still should be a hip hop hall of fame by itself because people like MC Light, Cool G Rap would go into the hip hop hall of fame and they'll probably never make it into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. But they'll get into
Dan Marshall (24:30)
the general
music kind of, well, maybe it's just what they called it at the beginning. It just throws people off because rock and roll and hip hop are marketed different ways typically, you know, and they're siloed off and there's always been this demographic racial component to it. I think that's what we're skirting around and that's. Yeah.
Fatboi (24:31)
Yeah. Yeah, they won't get over there, but they'll.
Yeah.
But then look at the creation of hip hop. I mean, mean,
of rock, the creation of rock, going back to the Chuck Berries, ⁓ Little Richard, ⁓ the lady, I'm drawing a blank with her name. Exactly. the origin and on into the blues guys with Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters, Little Walter.
Dan Marshall (24:58)
Little Richard.
Sister Rosetta Thorpe.
Robert Johnson. Yeah.
Fatboi (25:20)
all these guys which helped create this genre that ultimately, yes, my white brothers, it became the genre of rock which Elvis helped propel it to that level.
Dan Marshall (25:41)
Yeah, I think people,
people forget whose shoulders they're standing on.
Fatboi (25:45)
And we have to, if that's the origins of what we started calling, because hip hop didn't have a name either at first. It was just spoken word. And it came up because ⁓ one of the members I think of, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, I believe,
was getting ready to go to, or somebody was getting ready to go to the military. And the MC that was up there with the DJ said, ⁓ you're getting ready to hip hop, hip hop, hip hop. And that's where, since then, it started, everybody started calling it hip hop from that, but it just came from, an army came, hip hop, hip hop, you'll live, you'll hip hop, hip. That's where it came from. So.
Dan Marshall (26:27)
It's just one those things that stuck
That's wild.
I did not know that.
Fatboi (26:41)
And that's how
that's the term of hip hop. came from there. And so everything eventually settles on, you know, when when when the title of Rock and Roll got started, Rock and Roll didn't have a name yet. That name got placed upon it and it stuck. And I will say. You call it the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame because rock was the genre that just
Pow! Spearheaded into another stratosphere. So yeah, you call it the rock, but if you look at, who are the rock stars now today? Rappers. Well, the turntables are turnt. But the rock stars of today are the rappers. They are the rock stars now because rap is the top genre. It's tumbling down now.
Dan Marshall (27:18)
The tables have turned as of late. The turntables have turned. But yeah, who are the rock stars now?
The, the, the, the remaining rock stars are 56 year old dudes doing the second round, third round of fan. mean, like guys like food fighters still doing it, but they're one, one of five people still surviving and at that level in that genre, know,
Fatboi (27:41)
But, yeah. ⁓
And they are a part of that huge run of rock artists. just like, and we've seen the same thing with hip hop. This is why you can't separate it because hip hop did the same thing. In the installation phase of rock, in the 60s, 70s, when it got to the 70s, it started growing. When it got to the 80s, it exploded.
on into the nineties on into the two thousands and
Dan Marshall (28:36)
Somewhere around there the bottom fell out.
Fatboi (28:38)
and somewhere around there, but rap was on the ascend.
Dan Marshall (28:44)
Mm. That was a younger art form.
Fatboi (28:46)
a younger art form is maybe what 20, 30 years younger than rock, 20 years younger than rock. So it's rock and roll's little brother anyway. It's rock and roll's little brother. That's why Rockbox and King of Rock and all that, were such, they was, and walked this way, they were such big records because it infused rock and roll with rap.
Dan Marshall (28:51)
Yeah, OK. Yeah, yeah. It's just a natural evolution is what you think. Yeah. ⁓
That's a great way of putting
it then. That's the argument. Like it's rock and roll's little brother. How are gonna keep your little brother out of the Hall of Fame? Yeah.
Fatboi (29:16)
It's rock and roll's
little brother. And see, I don't place a ⁓ color on music overall. And unless it's my synesthesia, when I hear the music and it makes the, you know, I see the colors that come with it. But, ⁓ you know,
Dan Marshall (29:30)
Dan, can you play that chartreuse chord for me again, please?
Fatboi (29:39)
hip hop is rock's little
It really is. I mean, and think about it.
See, a lot of people don't get in depth with a lot of this stuff, but I do. A lot of the break beats, a lot of the break beats that the DJs at the inception of hip hop were spinning at these parties and the MCs were rapping to were rock, break beats. Like when the Levee breaks, Billy Squire, the big beat. I got the big beat.
Dan Marshall (30:05)
when the levy breaks.
Mmm.
Fatboi (30:15)
Run DMC did a whole, here we go, here we go, here we go, here we go, here we, here here we go. So a lot of these songs that rappers used to rap to when the DJs were backspinning these songs, they were rock songs.
Dan Marshall (30:30)
right. And they're reinterpreting, they're turning upside down, backwards, whatever. But that spirit's still in there.
Fatboi (30:32)
We were taking the break beat.
Yeah. Yes, yes. So, so,
yeah, it's still in there. Hip hop and it's not only that. It's an energy that comes with rock and roll. Hip hop has that same energy. It's the energy of the youth. Same thing, We stand up all night doing drugs, drinking.
Dan Marshall (30:53)
The rebellious, the party, the we don't care, we're staying up all night kind of thing that rock and roll.
Fatboi (31:03)
having fun, you know, the other, the, the, the dark stuff that comes with it, but it's, it's, it's all, it's all the same thing, man. It's all the same thing. The rock and roll, the rock and rollers on their big, ⁓ world tours, ⁓ all the hotels they stayed in trash, the hotels and all that, the hip hoppers trash and hotel. It's the same. It's the same thing. It's the same energy. You can't separate.
Dan Marshall (31:05)
All right.
Right.
Same thing. Same same energy. Different different expression.
Fatboi (31:33)
the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, just because of that title, you can't separate it from all these genres of music. The power three, the power three, and I'm not counting pop as a genre like that because pop is just popular music. The three giants, rock and roll, country, and hip hop. That's the big three.
That's the big three, rock and roll, hip hop, country. That's the big three. is standing, all music is standing on the shoulders of blues. Standing on the shoulders of blues and jazz.
Dan Marshall (32:04)
And they intertwine in all different kinds of ways too.
Least
modern popular culture music is yes. ⁓
Fatboi (32:23)
standing on the shoulders of blues and jazz, and on those shoulders stand rock and roll, country, and hip hop.
And pop just takes a piece from everything and just makes it popular. ⁓
Dan Marshall (32:42)
their finger
in the wind what mixture of this will be popular and now we got AI to do that for us so
Fatboi (32:47)
Yeah.
And that's that's that's that. I absolutely disagree with Gene that you should separate it because, know, and if and if you do do that, OK. Call it the. Music Hall of Fame and Kiss and everybody. It's just it's just forget the because rock and roll is an energy, not necessarily a sound.
Dan Marshall (33:06)
make categories but that's just another divisive thing yeah
Fatboi (33:18)
Because the young hip hop, NBA Youngboy is a rock star. He's a rock star.
Dan Marshall (33:25)
I gotta say though, in
the music rock and roll family, Gene Simmons, I mean, he gets respect. He's a legend and Kiss was a huge legendary. He was a young rebellious dude back in the day, but now he's involved to the uncle that starts some trouble at Thanksgiving. At the family dinner, that causes the fight. Everyone leaves the house on Thanksgiving night. Now he's causing problems.
Fatboi (33:41)
I the demon. Yeah, not...
Yeah, now he's the uncle that won't shut the fuck up.
Dan Marshall (33:52)
Yeah, you're just
like, ⁓ man, just, you know, no, no, we're not doing this. Right.
Fatboi (33:55)
Yeah, he's the old dude now. But
when he was the demon...
Like, come on, bro. Okay, where's your inner demon child now?
Dan Marshall (34:10)
⁓ man, it's been a minute since the demon actually roamed the earth. That was the marketing consultant and whatever.
Fatboi (34:15)
Yeah, I mean,
he, he, yeah, he, he, he fits the part now. You don't see the demon anywhere in him anymore. Other than the mullet.
Dan Marshall (34:24)
man. ⁓
I gotta say though, I won't put this in the thing, but like when he went to the Oval Office to meet Trump, so here's Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley. If you told me the guys from Kiss were gonna go meet the president and they'd be wearing less makeup than the president, I would never have believed you, but I saw it with my own eyes.
Fatboi (34:45)
You never have believed that. You can keep that in there. Keep that in there.
Yeah, keep that in there. I mean, it is what it is. Because that's the real thing right there. Because Kiss, the dudes that wore the most makeup, the dudes who made putting as a rocker, putting makeup on, who? Because when Twisted Sister and all these guys came along with the
Dan Marshall (34:56)
It is a real thing.
They
were the first ones or the biggest ones to ever do it. Maybe Alice Cooper a little bit and he kind of, you know, but Kiss owned that. And then when they finally get a president to give them recognition, they got less makeup on than he does. You live long enough, you see some strange shit in your life, man. That was if you told me that when I was 10 years old, I would never have believed you.
Fatboi (35:20)
They owned it.
You know, they should have showed up as kids.
Yeah. You know, man, when I was a kid, I was scared of kiss.
Dan Marshall (35:43)
They were scary.
Fatboi (35:44)
They look scary. was too young to understand it at the time, but then I got infatuated by KISS
Dan Marshall (35:46)
I mean...
and all the moms are freaked out.
They thought it was Knights in Satan's service and all these kids are putting makeup on. It's like a cult, my God, no.
Fatboi (35:57)
Yeah.
Especially when Gene used to do the tongue, you know what saying? mean, that was... Yeah, yeah. He's the ultimate salesman. I mean, I remember going to school and some of the kids having kiss ⁓ lunch boxes. You had to kiss lunch box.
Dan Marshall (36:00)
Yeah. Yeah. And it turns out he was just so on lunch boxes and t-shirts the whole time.
I had one.
Everyone did. It was huge in his mid 70s when I was like in grade school and stuff. Yeah, it was huge. Like Fonzie, there's Fonzie Kiss and Evil Knievel. Those are the those are the cool. Those are the cool guys. Yeah, Evil Knievel was crazy, man. Sevens were a pretty wild time, man. These kids today don't realize they're thinking about the 80s, 70s like anything goes, baby. You know.
Fatboi (36:21)
Yeah.
Yeah, so.
Evil Knievel, ⁓
Yeah, they don't know how to create their own fun.
Dan Marshall (36:47)
Build a rocket ship and try to get across this river canyon screw it. Yeah. ⁓ I broke every bone in my body. Whatever. I had fun
Fatboi (36:54)
Yeah, I was definitely building rocket ships
too. But ⁓ yeah, man, think Gene, get the sentiment of what he's trying to say, but I think he missed the mark in title alone. I know he's trying to reduce it down to the title, the name of it.
Dan Marshall (37:14)
Yeah, mean, it's
semantics about what you're going to call the Hall of Fame. And there's enough there's enough divisiveness going around the world. We don't need to add to it.
Fatboi (37:17)
Yeah, but
And I think, I think maybe, think maybe, maybe there should be a rockers, you know, it's already the rock and roll hall of fame. Maybe it should be a rockers hall of fame where some, some lesser, you know, maybe not as huge as a kiss or a queen and all of that. ⁓ they get recognized for being rockers and, and, and, and, and yes, yes. Like yes.
Dan Marshall (37:46)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. know, people that on the steps of the ladder that that would otherwise be forgotten.
Yeah.
Fatboi (37:53)
which is why I
brought up Cool G Rap, ⁓ MC Light, some of the people that hip hop is standing on the shoulders of.
Dan Marshall (38:02)
They were part of the foundation.
They may not have been the pinnacle, but they were part of the foundation that made the pinnacle possible.
Fatboi (38:11)
Exactly. know, certain people that are, they're legends in the genre.
but to music as a whole, music as a whole might overlook them a little bit. Yo, cool G rap, come on man.
Dan Marshall (38:25)
Yeah.
Things happen. There's some some something didn't click with the marketing or maybe they had one missed opportunity too many and it just didn't. The deals fell apart and it's it's a it's it's the thing about the music business, man. There's a couple of analogies I like to use, but it's like like poker or surfing like in poker, you can do everything right and if you just don't get the cards, you might have a couple of aces in your hand. still not going to win.
Fatboi (38:53)
Thank
Dan Marshall (38:54)
Cause someone sucked out on the flush or whatever, or you're surfing and you're doing everything right. And good surfers get up nine times out of 10, but about one time out of 10, you're going to crash and hit the coral reef and get all messed up. And the, you know, or the other analogy I always use is like Mount Everest, like Mount Everest is like the pinnacle of fame. The thing is on your way up, you're surrounded by like hundred people all in the line going up to the top. You're stepping over bodies to get there.
Fatboi (38:57)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dan Marshall (39:24)
You get like 30 seconds at the top. All right, got to come back down now and step over those bodies on your way back down. Lest you become one.
Fatboi (39:31)
And that's why they say,
that's why they say, punch a guy on the way up so you don't have to do it on the way down. Now see, hit now, my personal, my personal take, personal.
Dan Marshall (39:41)
You
Fatboi (39:51)
stance on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is, nah, don't change it, don't separate hip hop from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame because me personally, when GZ and Gucci go into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I'm going in with them.
Dan Marshall (40:05)
Yeah,
that's right.
Fatboi (40:08)
So no, do not take us away from these accolades that everybody is being recognized for. Everybody, okay, forget the name. Forget that the name is Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Forget that, the semantics of it. Don't get caught up on that. This is where Michael Jackson is in the hall. Prince is in the hall.
Dan Marshall (40:17)
Hmm.
So get caught up on that, yeah.
You've already set the precedent.
Fatboi (40:36)
It's already there. I want to be amongst that greatness. Don't, nah, but here's the thing. Even if you do, if you did create a hip hop hall of fame, I'm be over there too, anyway. So it's like, nah, don't take this shit away from me. It's like people, ⁓
Dan Marshall (40:43)
Hmm.
Well, there you go.
Fatboi (41:06)
protesting the Grammys and all that. No, man, I wanna win a Grammy. I don't give a, man, look, because in music, that's our Super Bowl. That's our Super Bowl. I want to be recognized for something that I did. today, it's too much of a popularity contest now, you know, like,
Dan Marshall (41:19)
Nah, it's not... Yeah, yeah.
It's got its problems.
I think the voting members are kind of out of touch with where music is and it's kind of, it could get fixed though. It could get fixed conceivably. Maybe.
Fatboi (41:35)
I don't think the voting is on merit.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It could go back. Go back
to old school voting.
Dan Marshall (41:49)
Right. Somehow, somehow the Oscars seem to get a little closer to right, you know, in the movie industry.
Fatboi (41:55)
Because you can't lie about movies. You can't lie about movies. You can lie about music a little bit. But you can't lie about movies. Because everybody's going to be like, man, that shitty ass movie won't, ain't no way. Ain't no way. So you're not surprised when a certain movie wins because like, that shit was good. It was good. It was good.
Dan Marshall (41:59)
Mm.
Yeah ⁓
All right.
Right. Yeah, yeah, know, some, whereas
with music, well, it wasn't my cup of tea, but I guess those folks liked it. I don't know. You know, what do I know? It's apples and oranges and it's too segmented.
Fatboi (42:28)
Yeah, it's too, yeah, you know,
yeah, you can get away with some stuff in, especially in like a movie wins in the most prestigious category at the Oscars. Even if you didn't watch that movie, you know what that movie is. I didn't watch that movie, but I kept hearing people talk about it. I kept seeing the trailer. I kept seeing ads about it and all that.
You can win over in music at the Grammys, and I ain't never heard of this person. Never heard of this person. Who is this person? Yeah, it's like now.
Dan Marshall (43:05)
where does this come from they they get into that nomination process somehow
Fatboi (43:13)
⁓ An artist with a niche following can win in a bigger
Dan Marshall (43:16)
I know some guys
like that. send me flyers every Grammy season trying to get me to vote for best new age or whatever, whatever categories. And that's cool and all. And that should be represented, but it seems like it's kind of game in the system a little bit too, as opposed to a recognition for job well done, you know?
Fatboi (43:32)
Yeah. And
then with a lot of the well-known artists, a lot of them win because voters just knew their name.
Dan Marshall (43:44)
Well, that's politics in general, sometimes.
Fatboi (43:47)
Yeah,
but somebody else in that same category of a lesser stature should have won. And they don't win because voters didn't know the name and they knew.
Dan Marshall (43:58)
there.
Right.
They had to fill out the form out, and I'll it, I'll do this guy. Or it's like, when you're voting and there's only like one name for the judge, you're like, why do even have a vote if you only get one name to vote for this person? Right, it's just human nature.
Fatboi (44:07)
Yeah.
I'm guilty of it. I'm guilty.
I voted and the categories that I knew, this is like, yeah, no, they had the best. Yeah, they were the best. They were the best. And then when it started thinning out or getting into genres that I, you know, I just knew the bigger artists, you know, like, ⁓ Garth Brooks, it's Garth all day.
Dan Marshall (44:38)
Right, but then Jason Isbell maybe didn't get recognition when he was way up. Right, because there's no requirement that you listen to all that stuff before you vote. It's just an honor system, but it takes a lot of work. Yeah.
Fatboi (44:43)
Travis Tritt, you know. So I've been guilty of it. Yeah.
Now it is.
Now it is. put you in a room and you listen to the stuff now. But then again, are you trusting that they really listen to everything? Or they just enjoying the perks of? You know, so it's a... Your music, it's...
Dan Marshall (45:04)
Right, or they screwed around their phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Fatboi (45:17)
get back to standing on something at least the way the Oscars does. The Oscars, they get it right more than not.
Dan Marshall (45:23)
Yeah.
Speaking of standing on something, ⁓ when this guy comes out, he's like giving me the wrap it up.
Fatboi (45:36)
Hey, wrap it up. Yeah, but I think, yeah, that's a good place to close, man. I do believe, nah, Gene's a little off base on that. Keep it as it is, unless y'all change the overall name. But if not, it's for all genres. And Run DMC is in there. So yeah, the kings of rock.
Dan Marshall (45:39)
But
Yeah.
And we have to respect all these levels because it's there you go. Thank you for watching.
Fatboi (46:09)
Levels did this.