Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Dean Abbott: If you have a young, insecure person who is living at kind of the [00:00:05] whim of our nihilistic culture, that young person can easily [00:00:10] fall into a deep kind of involvement in his or her own inward [00:00:15] narratives of what things mean, what his or her place is in the [00:00:20] world, how he or she's gonna function, and their important relationships.
[00:00:24] The [00:00:25] ruminative nature of that thought does not come from knowing. It [00:00:30] comes from pain and it is an attempt to understand the [00:00:35] problem and to cure it so that the pain goes away. People don't ruminate for fun. They [00:00:40] ruminate because they're looking for something.
[00:00:43] You must be some kind of [00:00:45] therapist
[00:00:49] Stephanie Winn: today. I have the [00:00:50] pleasure of speaking with Dean Abbott. He is a chaplain, coach and [00:00:55] author living in the Midwest. And as you might have noticed, if you normally [00:01:00] see these on YouTube, uh, we are not able to get our video to work today. We had a lot of technical [00:01:05] difficulties and eventually decided, okay, we'll just do this as an audio only.
[00:01:08] You're listening. Nothing should be [00:01:10] different. But what is different about our experience of speaking is that we can't see each other, so that'll [00:01:15] perhaps promote a different way of thinking. Anyway, this was when I would normally smile at [00:01:20] my guest. Didn't see him smiling back, but Dean, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:23] Great to have you.
[00:01:24] Dean Abbott: [00:01:25] Thank you very much. I, you know, I had having to go, audio only is a shame because [00:01:30] I sat down at the computer today and looked at myself and I thought. This is probably the handsomest [00:01:35] you've ever been. I mean, it's, it's just, I'll [00:01:40] probably never be this handsome again.
[00:01:42] Stephanie Winn: You having a good hair day?
[00:01:43] Dean Abbott: Yeah, that, that, let's [00:01:45] put it that way. No, thank you very much for having me.
[00:01:47] Stephanie Winn: Well, I put time into my makeup for nothing, but at [00:01:50] least I can occupy a somewhat cozier position on the couch, which feels appropriate. [00:01:55] For the, the mood of this set, dreary February day that we're recording on. Before we [00:02:00] started recording, I was just kind of venting about some of my recent hardships and, uh, you seem like a nice [00:02:05] person to, to talk to when life gets real.
[00:02:07] The reason that I [00:02:10] initially invited you here is, you know, I've been following you on X for some time and you seem like a really [00:02:15] thoughtful person, and you'd shared this post about healthy versus unhealthy introspection, and I really [00:02:20] noticed that because. It's something that I talked about in a recent conversation here with Brant [00:02:25] Elwood, and it's something that I think is very relevant to the topic of [00:02:30] mental health, psychology, spiritual growth, all that kind of stuff.
[00:02:33] I feel like [00:02:35] introspection is something that is generally praised, especially in those [00:02:40] fields, but where do we draw the line between introspection and [00:02:45] rumination or narcissism for that matter? So I thought you'd be a great person to have that conversation with. [00:02:50]
[00:02:50] Dean Abbott: I hear this all the time. I actually heard it, I saw some video on YouTube about [00:02:55] this today that, um, you know, [00:03:00] encouraging psychology encourages people to look inside themselves.
[00:03:03] And that's why we [00:03:05] have so many narcissistic young people, you know, that kind of argument. And I think [00:03:10] most famously, I, I remember hearing Abigail Schreyer promoting her [00:03:15] book on the Joe Rogan podcast, say. [00:03:20] Rumination is the number one symptom of depression. And so what happens is that [00:03:25] these people go to a therapist who encourages their rumination and they really need [00:03:30] to think about something other than themselves.
[00:03:32] I'm sure you've heard that kind of argument. [00:03:35]
[00:03:35] Stephanie Winn: Yeah, and I've, I've made similar arguments, but I feel like there's a lot of [00:03:40] context and nuance surrounding them. I'm curious what you think of the [00:03:45] argument that you just summarized.
[00:03:47] Dean Abbott: I don't think that argument holds at all. [00:03:50] Okay. I think that, first of all, when I [00:03:55] travel around the world, you know, I don't look around at the particularly [00:04:00] young people today.
[00:04:01] Look at how they operate and I think, you know, the problem is that guy, [00:04:05] he's just too introspective. You know, if I'm at the. [00:04:10] Grocery store and there's, you know, a bunch of young guys behaving [00:04:15] poorly. I never think, wow. The problem with that guy is that he just wonders too [00:04:20] much if he's doing the right thing.
[00:04:23] I, I mean this [00:04:25] idea that young people are obsessively introspective, in my [00:04:30] experience, first of all is not born out at all. And that comes from someone [00:04:35] who has been a, a, a teacher, both at the high school and at the university [00:04:40] level. Done that a lot. And I, I've never thought, wow, my students just know [00:04:45] themselves too well.
[00:04:45] Right.
[00:04:46] Stephanie Winn: Well, I mean, if you equate introspection with knowing yourself, but [00:04:50] there, there's the rub, right? Because isn't it sort of like introspection gives the [00:04:55] promise of self-knowledge?
[00:04:56] Dean Abbott: Yes. Well, I think that we do [00:05:00] have. Young people who are ruminative, [00:05:05] let's say that, right? That they are caught up in their own inward narratives.
[00:05:09] [00:05:10] So that, okay, so let's start with that. If you have a young, insecure [00:05:15] person who is living at kind of the whim of our ne nihilistic [00:05:20] culture. That young person can easily fall into a [00:05:25] deep kind of involvement in his or her own inward narratives of what [00:05:30] things mean, what his or her place is in the world, how he [00:05:35] or she's gonna function in those rela in, in their important relationships.
[00:05:39] And [00:05:40] part of the what makes. That happened, I think is two things, and this is why I don't [00:05:45] necessarily agree with the Abigail Schreyer argument, is that the ruminative [00:05:50] nature of that thought does not come from nowhere. It comes [00:05:55] from pain and it is an attempt to understand the [00:06:00] problem into cure. It. So that the pain goes away.
[00:06:04] People don't [00:06:05] ruminate for fun. They ruminate because they're looking for something. So it's more like, it's not [00:06:10] that they are necessarily, I don't think narcissistically [00:06:15] self-obsessed. They're like a person who believes he [00:06:20] or she has lost something of great value in his home. And [00:06:25] can't stop looking for it because they think that if they can get the lost thing back, [00:06:30] the fear and pain that they're experiencing will go away.
[00:06:32] So the, the issue isn't [00:06:35] that they just enjoy looking for lost things too much. The issue is what has, [00:06:40] what have they lost and are they going about it in the right way? And I don't think the Abigail [00:06:45] Schreyer kind of argument accounts for that at all.
[00:06:48] Stephanie Winn: You're raising the question of [00:06:50] why we ruminate in the first place.
[00:06:52] Our mind is trying to solve a problem. Something [00:06:55] hurts.
[00:06:55] Dean Abbott: Right?
[00:06:56] Stephanie Winn: Which you framed as something that feels missing or [00:07:00] lost or something that we feel a need to fix. But it seems like we're not always [00:07:05] very good at thinking through how to solve those problems. And so [00:07:10] rumination can lead to getting stuck instead.
[00:07:13] Dean Abbott: Sure. You just keep looking [00:07:15] forever. Right. But I think there's another part of that that is [00:07:20] really. Missed and that is that there is a kind of unhealthy rumination [00:07:25] that is like constantly seeking within the self answers to [00:07:30] questions that can only halfway be answered within. In our [00:07:35] culture, we don't have the other half.
[00:07:36] So let's say unhealthy rumination [00:07:40] is a kind of pointless. Thinking about, [00:07:45] say, negative experiences you've had, um, where, where the content [00:07:50] of your thoughts is essentially the same and it just goes over and over and over. But in [00:07:55] order to make your thinking, I think about your own growth and your [00:08:00] problems.
[00:08:01] Productive. It has to be done in light of [00:08:05] some external standard, so some external [00:08:10] input that you receive from somewhere that our culture does not offer to [00:08:15] most people.
[00:08:16] Stephanie Winn: What do you mean by an external standard?
[00:08:19] Dean Abbott: Well, I just wanna, [00:08:20] I'm just making the point that there's a difference between a kind of nihilistic [00:08:25] rumination in which a person just rehearses their pain.
[00:08:29] [00:08:30] Okay. Or engages in fantasies of what I should have said to that person who hurt [00:08:35] me, or if I were a better or different kind of person, I wouldn't have sustained these [00:08:40] losses. But there's no, there's no external meta-narrative in our [00:08:45] culture to tell anyone what a loss means. So I wanna, I would, [00:08:50] for example, contrast this kind of pointless nihilistic [00:08:55] rumination with a kind of serious practice of Christian.
[00:08:59] [00:09:00] Self-examination and you know, I'm, I'm just using the Christian model here because that's, you know, [00:09:05] I'm a Christian, that's what I'm familiar with. But in, in, in, in a serious model of [00:09:10] Christian self-examination, we are always looking at [00:09:15] ourselves, looking at what's happening inside us, becoming aware of our feelings, our [00:09:20] desires, our motivations, et cetera, and we can reflect on those at [00:09:25] great length.
[00:09:26] Look at our formative influences, but [00:09:30] we can do that in a way that does not become depressive, doesn't become [00:09:35] narcissistic or orient us toward withdrawal from the world because we [00:09:40] have, within the Christian narrative, we have a program [00:09:45] of sort of growth, and we have. An external [00:09:50] standard for what we should be.
[00:09:51] And so we can ask ourselves not just the question, where's this [00:09:55] lost thing? Right? And why did all this happen to me? We could actually ask [00:10:00] ourselves, what would it look like for me to grow into the kind of [00:10:05] person I should be? And that's a much more productive [00:10:10] question for self-examination than a kind of [00:10:15] pointless nihilistic rumination.
[00:10:17] I don't know if the. Distinction I'm making is clear. [00:10:20]
[00:10:20] Stephanie Winn: Well, I'm wondering how vulnerable I should get on my own [00:10:25] podcast. 'cause once I put something out there, it's like, it's, it's out there. But, but this feels really [00:10:30] close to home recently. And, and I'm thinking of giving an example, so I'll see if [00:10:35] I can use myself as an example without saying anything I regret.
[00:10:38] So lately I've [00:10:40] been feeling that sense of loss, um, sort of like a bereft feeling [00:10:45] because. My social life isn't what I wish it was.
[00:10:49] Dean Abbott: Mm-hmm. [00:10:50]
[00:10:50] Stephanie Winn: I spend all day online talking to people one day a week. I record [00:10:55] podcasts four days a week I coach. So I'm talking to people online all the [00:11:00] time and usually in a, a role where I'm helping.
[00:11:04] We're [00:11:05] advising, guiding, instructing, hosting, interviewing. The focus is on [00:11:10] being generative and generous toward others. And then during my free time, I [00:11:15] try to build community locally, but that also often puts me in the role where [00:11:20] I'm the one extending myself to others. I'm. Hosting, inviting [00:11:25] networking, and I've noticed that I'm not getting a lot back, and [00:11:30] I recently had some personal hardships where I really needed a friend.
[00:11:34] I really [00:11:35] needed a support system and couldn't find it. I couldn't find the type of support [00:11:40] system I was looking for, and it was like, well, why not? I've, I've [00:11:45] certainly hosted my share of dinner parties. I, I reach out, I am helpful and kind to [00:11:50] people, I introduce people to, people that they will, like, why isn't that support system [00:11:55] there for me?
[00:11:56] So I found myself kind of constantly on the verge of [00:12:00] rumination in an unhelpful direction and trying to like pull it back. Finding that part of me that I [00:12:05] know is just trying to solve a problem, right? It's, I'm in pain. Where are my friends? [00:12:10] Who can I lean on? Have I done something wrong? You know what, what have I not done [00:12:15] right to like find myself lacking that support system?
[00:12:18] Is it my fault? Is it their [00:12:20] fault? And I'm curious about, you know, that that Christian self-examination [00:12:25] that you described. Because it gives a little bit of a framework to think about [00:12:30] what Jesus encourages us to do in terms of, you know, the way that we extend [00:12:35] ourselves to others without expectation of return.
[00:12:37] But then in practice, in [00:12:40] practice, uh, not living in the kingdom of heaven where everyone is, [00:12:45] you know, equally kind and generous. It can become a little [00:12:50] worrisome. What would be like an example of a a, a Christian self-examination [00:12:55] method of reflecting on something like that, that loneliness or that feeling of lack of reciprocity?[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Dean Abbott: Well, I think what you've described, I would begin to want to examine [00:13:05] an assumption that has arisen that you talked about, right? Which is that we put [00:13:10] ourselves out there with no expectation of return. I'm not sure that's true. [00:13:15] So this is part of, so let me walk through the, what I'm thinking about it would be like [00:13:20] health, a healthy kind of self-examination.
[00:13:22] You find, okay, I'm having a rough [00:13:25] time and I'm lonely. I think that's an essential problem. You're, you're describing there I'm lonely. [00:13:30] Uh, I don't feel connected to people the way I want to. So then it comes up, [00:13:35] well, I'm putting myself out there and I'm not getting back much. So now the question is, [00:13:40] do I get angry about that or do I try to?
[00:13:43] Now that becomes a [00:13:45] solvable problem and a lot of the [00:13:50] differentiation between a kind of nihilistic self [00:13:55] rumination versus a more Christian or more directed. [00:14:00] More productive self-examination is whether or not [00:14:05] solvable problems come up. 'cause if you live in a nihilistic [00:14:10] world, then there aren't very many problems that are solvable because it is the [00:14:15] basic nature of reality that you can't ever solve your fundamental problem because nothing matters, [00:14:20] nothing.
[00:14:20] There's, there's no, uh, very little external [00:14:25] structure for your emotional life. But when you have some external [00:14:30] structure for your emotional life, you can then say, well, okay, so part of [00:14:35] the reason I'm lonely is because I'm telling myself I do these things [00:14:40] without expecting anything in return. And at that point you can either become [00:14:45] resentful or you could think well.
[00:14:47] Maybe that's not the case. That you [00:14:50] are a human being who has limits and you've created as a limited creature. [00:14:55] And what it means to be a limited creature is to have needs. And so now the [00:15:00] question is, okay, so that's legitimate. It's a legitimate thing. You are saying you need, you need [00:15:05] connection. Now it's just a matter of like what action can be taken [00:15:10] to solve that problem.
[00:15:11] So you're actually becoming a person [00:15:15] who. Unlike the, the person who, who's obsessed with looking through his house, you actually become [00:15:20] a person who kind of has an inkling where the thing you're looking for might be, [00:15:25] and you begin to think about how to take action to make that happen [00:15:30] because you have kind of come to a point where you, you're, your self-examination [00:15:35] has revealed your legitimate need.
[00:15:38] Is that clear? [00:15:40]
[00:15:40] Stephanie Winn: I'll tell you where I struggle with that. So I'm not like your conventional [00:15:45] Christian. I'm, I'm trying to follow Jesus. I ran into some problems with the Old [00:15:50] Testament and the only person whose answers to those questions made any sense to me is [00:15:55] someone who says that he left the Christian Church to follow Jesus and has a [00:16:00] much different interpretation of those things.
[00:16:02] And I was listening to a talk by this individual recently. [00:16:05] Where he talked about the history of Jesus' followers, which [00:16:10] began in the first century a day, just being known as the way, as I'm sure you know, better, [00:16:15] better than I do. And, and the moral of the story after listening this whole talk on the history [00:16:20] of the church was invite others to your home and [00:16:25] have them over for dinner and extend your kindness toward them and try to be that.
[00:16:29] [00:16:30] Extension of Jesus' love in the world. And I thought, you know, we're not doing half bad. That is [00:16:35] what we have been doing. My husband and I, we have been hosting dinner parties and you know, meeting [00:16:40] and connecting with people and giving hospitality. And so I think I found a tension because [00:16:45] there's a part of me that feels like that's the kind of person I wanna be.
[00:16:49] You know, [00:16:50] I wanna be that generous host. And then there's another part of me that's [00:16:55] like, wait a minute. You've been to my house five times and I haven't been to yours [00:17:00] once.
[00:17:00] Dean Abbott: Right?
[00:17:01] Stephanie Winn: You've come to all these things I've invited you to, but it's never [00:17:05] occurred to you to invite me to anything, and where do I reach my limit?
[00:17:08] And, and so I think [00:17:10] it's a question for me of like, which path is following Jesus? Right? Do I, because I, I [00:17:15] don't think that continuing to extend myself where there's a lack of reciprocity is healthy for me, but I [00:17:20] also think that it's a reflection of my values. I mean, you're right to point out [00:17:25] that there are needs and limits, but I'm curious, especially because you do have that Christian [00:17:30] framework, like what is that external standard that we measure ourselves by?
[00:17:33] Dean Abbott: In terms of what, like [00:17:35] how, how generous we are?
[00:17:37] Stephanie Winn: Yeah.
[00:17:38] Dean Abbott: Well, I think [00:17:40] we have a hierarchy with regard to our generosity in anything, right? [00:17:45] So we all, for example, would not think, well, I [00:17:50] should serve people so fully. That I just stop sleeping [00:17:55] and I'm never gonna sleep again. Right. So the question is, in what way [00:18:00] is your need for relational reciprocity different from your [00:18:05] need for sleep?
[00:18:05] And I just, I don't think it is particularly different because they're both [00:18:10] necessary for your flourishing into the sort of fullness [00:18:15] of whom you are for the person you're created to be. And you need relational [00:18:20] reciprocity for that, just like you need sleep. Then there is no clear cut standard. [00:18:25] Okay.
[00:18:26] Because a lot I think of, I mean this is going kind of a different [00:18:30] direction than I had thought, but a lot of kind of living a Christian [00:18:35] life is the development of wisdom. And so I can't say to you, well, [00:18:40] you should. You should have people over six nights a week. I have, don't have that authority, [00:18:45] but what I can do is to encourage you, for example.
[00:18:49] To [00:18:50] be realistic about your needs and to not [00:18:55] dismiss those out of a kind of hyper spirituality. And once [00:19:00] you've accepted that you have those needs, then it's a matter of developing [00:19:05] wisdom about what works for you to get you, move you toward [00:19:10] that end of, um, sort of becoming the fullness of yourself. So [00:19:15] it's a wisdom issue and not an issue of a specific rule following.[00:19:20]
[00:19:20] Stephanie Winn: And I take it to return to the original subject, that that would be part of your [00:19:25] definition of healthy introspection. At wisdom.
[00:19:27] Dean Abbott: Yeah, yeah,
[00:19:28] yeah. Is to, [00:19:30] yes. Yes. So there is a kind of introspection that is nihilistic and there is a [00:19:35] kind that leads to wisdom. And I'll say something about wisdom because [00:19:40] it is a quality that.
[00:19:41] I think you can look around in the world and see the [00:19:45] world is not overflowing with it necessarily, but particularly when you [00:19:50] wanna talk about Christian people, I think it oftentimes in many [00:19:55] Christian. Subgroups, context, et cetera. There's almost a kind of [00:20:00] anti wisdom. What I mean by that is that it is part of kind of [00:20:05] the moral spiritual faith development of a lot of people [00:20:10] to, to go through stages and one of those stages [00:20:15] is gives me a rule for everything or it is.
[00:20:18] How much can I [00:20:20] do this without feeling bad, right? Like, how much can I have people over [00:20:25] before I start to feel like I'm being taken advantage of?
[00:20:28] We gotta get kind of stuck in this [00:20:30] emotional thing where we, well then we think, but can I trust those emotions?
[00:20:33] Or we, we look [00:20:35] outward to our church, or even to the Bible or whatever, for a very clear rule about everything.[00:20:40]
[00:20:40] But really that's like one phase of faith development and [00:20:45] moral development. Whereas long term, what you're trying to do is get to a phase where you [00:20:50] have internalized the Christian perspective, the gospel perspective on [00:20:55] things. And you then you. As an individual have to take [00:21:00] moral responsibility for making the decisions for [00:21:05] your own life where there is no clear cut rule.
[00:21:08] So I can tell you, [00:21:10] Stephanie, you should not commit murder. There's a very clear [00:21:15] biblical command not to do that, right? I can't tell you. You should have people [00:21:20] over six nights a week, because I don't know what it's like to be in your body. I don't know what it's like to be in your marriage. I don't know [00:21:25] what it's like to be where you are financially anything.
[00:21:27] And so [00:21:30] that becomes a decision you have to make as wisely as possible.
[00:21:34] Stephanie Winn: Tell us [00:21:35] more about the qualities and processes of healthy introspection [00:21:40] and how they differ from unhealthy, let's say narcissistic rumination, for [00:21:45] example.
[00:21:45] Dean Abbott: I think healthy introspection leads to hope. Let's say it that way [00:21:50] because you, you come to know yourself, you know, the standard and I mean, we could use some other [00:21:55] standard too, like, you know, like there's a kind of a revival and stoicism that's been going [00:22:00] on for the last three years.
[00:22:01] And a lot of, I think what the peel of stoicism is probably [00:22:05] particularly among young men is that it provides a kind of moral standard. [00:22:10] So in stoicism, you know, makes a lot of, puts a lot of emphasis on not being [00:22:15] reactive and being a victim to things that you can't control. And so young [00:22:20] man, let's say he's read some stoic literature and he's starting to reflect on [00:22:25] himself, okay, I, I'm feeling really upset about this.
[00:22:28] I'm really angry. I'm really sad. [00:22:30] Is this something I can control or not? So he appeals then to an [00:22:35] external school of thought, an external standard, an external truth that [00:22:40] structures his internal rumination so he doesn't fall into [00:22:45] just confusion. He can say, yes, it's, it's something I can't control, [00:22:50] so therefore I will, now I have the hope that I can [00:22:55] become the kind of person who is less reactive to this.
[00:22:58] And so it leads [00:23:00] to the hope of increased internal [00:23:05] structure out of which we can respond to the difficulties in vicissitudes [00:23:10] of life without collapsing into [00:23:15] narcissistic. Rumination about, not even just about ourselves, but about our experience and about [00:23:20] other people and, and that kind of thing. So the problem I have with the Abigail Schreyer sort of [00:23:25] argument is that it takes, it only offers two options, [00:23:30] which is stop thinking so much about yourself or just focus on something else.[00:23:35]
[00:23:35] And neither of those is deep enough to actually promote any kind of growth [00:23:40] on the part of a human being. And what you really have to have is lots of [00:23:45] self-examination in a light of an external standard or, or, uh, an [00:23:50] standard you wanna live up to or a goal you wanna achieve. I'll say [00:23:55] one more thing too. I do coaching with, mostly with men, though I do [00:24:00] coach women at times too.
[00:24:01] It is really interesting because I coach people from all kinds of [00:24:05] faith backgrounds and what we always do at the beginning, what I always [00:24:10] do is I just, we do a real thorough inventory of [00:24:15] that person's goals and desires, and I find that, especially with [00:24:20] men, you say, well, what do you want in life? And they have zero clue.
[00:24:24] Because [00:24:25] you know, if you're a man and a lot of times pe you go your whole life, people don't ask you that. [00:24:30] And so I ask them, many men have no idea. And so even if [00:24:35] they aren't particularly religious or philosophically oriented, a lot of times [00:24:40] just having a clear sense of who they are and what they actually want.[00:24:45]
[00:24:45] Is enough to pull them out of that kind of depressive rumination and put them [00:24:50] on a path that actually is leading somewhere. I don't think like, you know, [00:24:55] contra Abigail Schreyer, I don't think rumination leads to depression. I [00:25:00] think that what probably leaves a lot of people to depression is a [00:25:05] lack of a lack of any kind of internal structure, even if that [00:25:10] just comes from their own.
[00:25:11] Goals.
[00:25:12] Stephanie Winn: It's so much easier to [00:25:15] identify what's wrong or the feeling that something is wrong [00:25:20] than identify what that signifies a lack of, [00:25:25] that we might be able to build in our lives.
[00:25:27] Dean Abbott: Yeah, I think that is true, and it [00:25:30] takes a lot of work to get to the point where we see that feeling as [00:25:35] information about something instead of just an immediate reaction.[00:25:40]
[00:25:40] So we have a feeling that we're lonely and it, [00:25:45] I think it's very typical to think, well, I shouldn't be so either something's wrong with me or something's [00:25:50] wrong with other people. And so I get resentful toward them and I start to hate [00:25:55] myself. And I, you know, then I become very, uh, critical of myself. [00:26:00] Might say, well, you know, you wouldn't be lonely if you were better in [00:26:05] this way or that way.
[00:26:06] But all of that is very unproductive. When really what we need to [00:26:10] think is, well, okay, I'm feeling really sad because I don't have any [00:26:15] connections and that's tells me that I'm built for relationship [00:26:20] and I have to be responsible for putting myself in a situation where [00:26:25] some of that, or I'm getting at least some of that need met.
[00:26:28] What are some practical things [00:26:30] I could do to get that? And I just think that transition from [00:26:35] my emotions are an overwhelming reality that I can do nothing about [00:26:40] to my emotions are telling me something important about what I need and who I am and what my [00:26:45] situation is like, and what can I do about it.
[00:26:48] That's a huge and just [00:26:50] absolutely critical transition for people to make as we're all growing [00:26:55] up.
[00:26:55] Stephanie Winn: Your trans identified kid won't listen to reason, because reason isn't what they [00:27:00] need right now. They need a parent who knows how to communicate in an empathic [00:27:05] yet strategic manner. ROGD Repair gives you over 120 [00:27:10] lessons in the psychology and communication tools that actually work when normal [00:27:15] parenting doesn't.
[00:27:16] Plus repair Bot your 24 7 AI coach trained on [00:27:20] my entire body of work. Ready to help you navigate tough moments in real time. [00:27:25] Visit ROD repair.com and use code some [00:27:30] therapist 2026
[00:27:31] Dean Abbott: to take half off your first month.
[00:27:34] Stephanie Winn: [00:27:35] We're talking about emotional intelligence, being able to decode our emotions, what [00:27:40] they're telling us about our needs, and, and to identify those [00:27:45] needs as.
[00:27:46] Things that we can fulfill through actions and, and it takes [00:27:50] vulnerability to do that because there's, there's always the parts of the picture we can't [00:27:55] control, especially when we're talking about social needs, which are such a huge part of the [00:28:00] picture. You know, I think where I am tempted to enter a negative [00:28:05] cycle of rumination would be if I were to get lost in [00:28:10] the thought that.
[00:28:11] Well, I've already done all the things, you know, I've, I've [00:28:15] hosted and invited and I've done all these things and it's not working, so therefore, what's [00:28:20] wrong with me? Or like, you say, what's wrong with other people, but to have that hope [00:28:25] that you're talking about requires faith and vulnerability because there has to be openness to the possibility [00:28:30] of maybe there's another course of action I can take even in a world where.[00:28:35]
[00:28:35] Other people are unpredictable and the only thing I can control is my own [00:28:40] actions. Still. I have to trust that the world has enough coherence and enough basic [00:28:45] goodness that I can kind of put one foot in front of the other and take steps that seem like [00:28:50] they're likely to lead me to that goal and, and just hope for the best.
[00:28:54] Dean Abbott: Yes. I [00:28:55] don't know if you follow Jonathan Schuler on Twitter. Um, he's a very well known [00:29:00] psychologist and, uh, someone that I. Someone I've learned a lot from and whom I [00:29:05] respect, but he's recently been writing a little bit about how psych, the, the [00:29:10] psychology project, as he calls it, is not moral education. And that has, for [00:29:15] example, makes psychology different from any kind of religious counseling, which he thinks [00:29:20] somehow consists primarily of moral education.
[00:29:22] But really, it, it [00:29:25] doesn't. Now I wanna talk about two things. The first thing I talk about is that. [00:29:30] Our culture has entirely lost [00:29:35] the notion of formation and of experience and education as [00:29:40] formative. When I was in high school, I had a wonderful teacher whom I was friends with [00:29:45] for a decade until he died in 2024, and I [00:29:50] remember he had a drawing on the wall in his [00:29:55] classroom and it was.
[00:29:57] A drawing of a human head and the top had been [00:30:00] flipped open like a hinge, and there were books pouring into it. And I [00:30:05] remember he talked about this is an example of what your education should not be. [00:30:10] You're not here to just have us pour these facts into you, but rather he was a [00:30:15] English and literature teacher.
[00:30:17] But rather the things that you read and [00:30:20] experience, they shape you almost as if you are clay. Okay? [00:30:25] We don't in our culture have any real notion of human and [00:30:30] spiritual formation, and we think, well, so like [00:30:35] education is, you know, becomes just about knowing a bunch of facts, the media you [00:30:40] consume. It has no formative effect on you.
[00:30:43] It's just something you would entertained [00:30:45] by for a couple of hours and it's gone. Your relationships with one another don't [00:30:50] really change the shape of your mind and soul. What is friendship for in our culture [00:30:55] anyway, other than just a person that you don't mind doing fun things with? And I [00:31:00] think part of the, what we're discussing here, it becomes kind [00:31:05] of anorexic when we lose that concept of formation.
[00:31:09] So that [00:31:10] like our lives, as we try to move away from a kind [00:31:15] of an artistic way of thinking, that we can't just [00:31:20] flip a switch and do that. It's a long process of formation. And I [00:31:25] think we all would be more compassionate with one another if we tended to see [00:31:30] people in the process of their formation somewhere.
[00:31:32] If we said, look, we're all growing [00:31:35] up and we're all growing up at different rates in different, different ways, [00:31:40] and how can we be positive? Positive influences on one another's [00:31:45] formation. Like the people you encounter, they're clay-Like how are you [00:31:50] going to make them something stronger or more beautiful?
[00:31:53] Stephanie Winn: That's really beautiful [00:31:55] and it resonates with my understanding of people. I don't use the word [00:32:00] formation, but I, I might have to borrow that. I often talk about development. Because so much of the [00:32:05] work I do, I mean exclusively the work I do when I'm not PO podcasting, I am [00:32:10] talking to parents who are concerned about their adolescent and young adult children.[00:32:15]
[00:32:15] So I have that formative, you know, what I usually call developmental, but a formative [00:32:20] lens. Right? Thinking, you know, I, I've often advised parents, for instance, most [00:32:25] young people when they're 17, 18 are quite narcissistic. But [00:32:30] how you respond and how the rest of the world responds to that stage in their [00:32:35] development.
[00:32:36] Is a big part of what shapes who they'll be when they're 30 years old. Right. They're [00:32:40] this work in progress and, and I even explain and I break down like why a [00:32:45] young person as they're gearing up for this intimidating thing called adulthood, why they form a false [00:32:50] sense of self in order to deal with it in the first place.
[00:32:53] As a, you know, a [00:32:55] coping mechanism and what are the factors that kind of influence whether that coping [00:33:00] mechanism can fall away gradually as a real true self emerges, or whether they lean more and [00:33:05] more heavily into the false self that they've constructed. So I'm gonna have to borrow that [00:33:10] word for.
[00:33:10] Formation. And you know, it's rarely more true than when it comes to parenting young [00:33:15] people, but I like how you apply that lens to people at all stages in their lives because we, [00:33:20] we do never stop growing and, and we, we shape what we bring out in one another.
[00:33:24] Dean Abbott: Yeah. And I [00:33:25] think too, I wanna make a distinction between development and formation.
[00:33:29] Stephanie Winn: Okay. That,
[00:33:29] Dean Abbott: you [00:33:30] know, I believe that. And I'm obviously not the only one, but that human [00:33:35] beings have a kind of internal plan for their development [00:33:40] and we develop according to that. But that process, and I, and I don't think that, just [00:33:45] like biologically, I really think that is true uniquely [00:33:50] for each individual that there is a kind of real.
[00:33:53] Self [00:33:55] that you're supposed to develop into, but that, that process goes haywire in in many, many [00:34:00] ways as you're talking about, right? And it becomes the development of coping mechanisms, defense [00:34:05] mechanisms, the false self, all of that. And the question that a formation is, [00:34:10] what do we do to form one another in ways [00:34:15] that are more in alignment with that?
[00:34:18] Original [00:34:20] plan. Right. Uh, how, how can, and I'm sure this is what you're, [00:34:25] you're talking to the, to the parents about is how do you respond to a [00:34:30] narcissistic 17-year-old in a way that's formative, they're clay-Like [00:34:35] how do you shape them in a way that's more in aligned with [00:34:40] that inner sense of development?
[00:34:42] That's happening within them that has been [00:34:45] short circuited in some way by trauma, loneliness, the difficulties of [00:34:50] life, whatever it is,
[00:34:51] Stephanie Winn: or just a lack of the right formative [00:34:55] experiences. I think especially with a lot of young people being impacted by the pandemic lockdowns. I mean, I [00:35:00] find it so hard to create a social life as I've been talking about throughout this conversation, [00:35:05] and I sympathize with young people because at least I had a social life when I was young.
[00:35:09] Pre [00:35:10] pandemic, pre. Smartphones, right? Pre uh, [00:35:15] this, at least this level of social media. So there can be that lack of [00:35:20] experience, but I think what you're talking about, it also takes emotional intelligence and [00:35:25] intimacy because it requires a degree of faith that you know something [00:35:30] about who that person is capable becoming.
[00:35:31] Right. When you talk about sort of the plan for the individual, it's not [00:35:35] just a universal plan of what's good for a human being [00:35:40] and what. Virtues, we wanna see everyone cultivate. But also that each one [00:35:45] of us has certain gifts. And I think that's part of what makes Haring [00:35:50] require that emotional intelligence and faith and intuition is, is that you have to have [00:35:55] some degree of insight into who that person is capable of becoming, not [00:36:00] just what you want them to become or what you thought they might become when they were little, but really what are those [00:36:05] seeds within them that are.
[00:36:06] Trying to sprout.
[00:36:07] Dean Abbott: Right. You know, you mentioned the [00:36:10] thing that I, I wanted to talk about formation and you mentioned the other thing I wanted to talk about, which is [00:36:15] virtue and that the difference between [00:36:20] pointless narcissistic rumination and a kind of self-examination that is healthy is [00:36:25] one leads to virtue and one does not.
[00:36:27] And so to take a little bit of issue with Dr. [00:36:30] Shedler, I think that to say. Psychology, [00:36:35] therapeutic enterprises or whatever are not fundamentally moral education, but rather trying to help [00:36:40] the, trying to allow the client to discover his own, I [00:36:45] guess, his own moral framework or something. The problem with that [00:36:50] is that we have literally thousands of years of literature.
[00:36:54] [00:36:55] Showing us what works in human life and what does not.
[00:36:57] Stephanie Winn: I agree.
[00:36:58] Dean Abbott: Right. Going all the way back to [00:37:00] Aristotle or before, uh, it's interesting. Hey, for Christmas I was given a [00:37:05] set of books and one of them was the DMA Pata, which is a collection of. 400 [00:37:10] sayings attributed to the Buddha. The Buddha was a wise, clearly a very wise person.
[00:37:14] [00:37:15] And if you did nothing but read the Buddha and think, well, hey, he seems to know what he's [00:37:20] talking about. And he tried to do some of the things that he suggests. Or you [00:37:25] raid Marcus Aurelius like I was talking about, or Aristotle or even oh, into the Middle [00:37:30] Ages. Someone like Bo Atheist, these people are all talking about how to live the [00:37:35] right kind of life.
[00:37:36] And I think to act as if we don't have [00:37:40] thousands of years of resources telling us what the right kind of human life is. [00:37:45] When we go into like a, a situation where we're working with people. Is in a way [00:37:50] kind of to abandon them and instead to say, all right, look, you [00:37:55] don't have to reinvent the wheel on your own.
[00:37:57] There is a real thing [00:38:00] called virtue, and it's part of what you can grow into. And the more you [00:38:05] pursue virtue, the more you will become the [00:38:10] best unique expression, the best expression of your unique self. So we don't have that in our [00:38:15] culture at all because we are. Cut off from all those sources [00:38:20] of wisdom telling us very clearly what the, what the good life looks like.
[00:38:24] Stephanie Winn: I [00:38:25] agree, and I think this is one of my kind of major complaints about what we [00:38:30] could call a liberal approach to psychotherapy, which is that it, it lacks a framework of [00:38:35] what we know is generally good for the human soul. There's kind [00:38:40] of this, anything goes. Philosophy and I saw someone, a, a [00:38:45] therapist post something I thought was quite wise on social media saying that the difference between a [00:38:50] less good therapist and a more expert therapist is less good therapist.
[00:38:54] [00:38:55] You're in the driver's seat, they're in the passenger seat, they have the map, they know where you're going, they tell you where [00:39:00] to turn, and they said a more skilled therapist sits in the backseat, looks out the [00:39:05] window, and says. Hmm. Interesting. You told me the last time [00:39:10] you drove down the street, you got beaten up.
[00:39:12] It's, I wonder why you're choosing to go [00:39:15] down the street again. The problem with that framework, as much as I agree halfway with [00:39:20] that comparison, the problem is that. In that [00:39:25] narrative. The only reason we know that that's not a healthy street for that person is because [00:39:30] they've personally been beaten up down that street before.
[00:39:32] What about the reality of [00:39:35] if a hundred other people had been also beaten up on that street? Just because that particular [00:39:40] person hasn't necessarily been down that street. You know, it's like, do we have to [00:39:45] reinvent the wheel with every single human being? I'm not saying that we have to apply [00:39:50] one rigid moral framework to all human beings in a way that doesn't allow for any [00:39:55] individuality, but at the same time, it kind of feels with a more liberal, [00:40:00] progressive approach to psychotherapy that every individual is in it.
[00:40:04] [00:40:05] To learn things from first principles themselves, that if we had a little bit [00:40:10] more openness to that wisdom of the past at which you could consider a more [00:40:15] conservative approach, not politically, but in the sense that we're preserving [00:40:20] what we know, what has already been built. You know, rather than questioning it [00:40:25] constantly, if, if we relied on the knowledge that what's true for other people [00:40:30] is probably true for me, we could actually.
[00:40:32] Potentially spare ourselves a lot of [00:40:35] pain. Like an example of that is if you take a person at any age [00:40:40] and ask them to imagine what they're gonna want at a different age in the future, [00:40:45] let's say 20 versus 60, ask your average 20-year-old. What are you gonna want when you're 60? I [00:40:50] think if you looked at the responses, you would find that what 20 year [00:40:55] olds imagine they're gonna want when they're 60 is closer to what they want when they're 20.[00:41:00]
[00:41:00] Than what they will actually want when they're 60, and that a better guess of what they're gonna want when they're [00:41:05] 60 would come from looking at what the average 60-year-old wants. [00:41:10] Your guess. You as an individual at 20, if you're planning your life at 60, are [00:41:15] probably going to make wiser decisions that you're going to be happier with if you base your [00:41:20] future planning off of what does the average person want at that time in life [00:41:25] compared to what I currently value and think that I want.
[00:41:28] And yet we [00:41:30] go about psychotherapy as if every 20-year-old can [00:41:35] imagine what they're gonna want, uh, based on their current [00:41:40] wants rather than like, you know, the human condition.
[00:41:43] Dean Abbott: I think you said something [00:41:45] very, you casually said something very important, which is that [00:41:50] if we can kind of come to see that what is true [00:41:55] for the vast majority of people is probably true for me.
[00:41:58] You said you were kind of referring [00:42:00] to that as a, a means of cultivating wisdom, but it, I would just point [00:42:05] out it's also a good way to combat loneliness and [00:42:10] that when you sort of come to see yourself as another [00:42:15] instantiation of kind of the human experience. You [00:42:20] suddenly realize, oh, any of these writers are thinkers that I, or, [00:42:25] or people from the past, they're not so different from me.
[00:42:29] It [00:42:30] places you inside a larger human narrative that I think does help at least [00:42:35] somewhat to resolve an existential loneliness than I think most people [00:42:40] feel in a, a liberal culture. A liberal in the sense that it is about [00:42:45] liberating one from the wisdom of the past. I think most people do feel an [00:42:50] existential loneliness, that if they were more familiar with the, [00:42:55] with the kind of the thinking of, of the past, they might feel less [00:43:00] existential loneliness.
[00:43:01] And just to close the loop on the thing about psychology [00:43:05] and moral education. I, I think that, yes. Well, I think what we're saying is that for a lot of, [00:43:10] um, therapeutic relationships too. To be successful, it really does [00:43:15] have to have some level of moral education or you're [00:43:20] kinda leaving help on the table that you could [00:43:25] offer to people who are suffering.
[00:43:26] Stephanie Winn: I'm trying to think of an example of that. 'cause I think I know what you're [00:43:30] talking about in the sense that if someone is behaving in a way that the average person would [00:43:35] consider immoral, like their behavior is hurtful to others, it's also [00:43:40] hurtful. To themselves. That's what I believe at least, that when we're [00:43:45] selfish, when we take lie, cheat, steal, that, that damages our soul and, and it's one of [00:43:50] the reasons that I'm able to guide parents lovingly into interventions [00:43:55] that they're hesitant to embrace, but that their kids' behavior calls for, because [00:44:00] it's sort of like.
[00:44:01] Taking away the toy when a kid isn't using that toy [00:44:05] properly. Right. Like, you know, you know, the rule is that toy is not to be used to hit [00:44:10] your brother with, and if you are using the toy to hit your brother, then we're taking away [00:44:15] the toy. 'cause that's not what it's for. And I think, you know, as much as you might do that when a kid [00:44:20] is five, there are, there are similar things when someone's 20 where.
[00:44:24] You know, [00:44:25] it's not just that they're harming others, but that this isn't good for, as you would [00:44:30] say, their formation.
[00:44:32] Dean Abbott: Let me give an an example. This just occurred to me. [00:44:35] Imagine 20-year-old guy. He's doing okay in life, like [00:44:40] he's got like a group of guy friends or whatever, but secretly [00:44:45] on his phone every day, he's like really into sports [00:44:50] betting.
[00:44:50] Okay. And let's say he's, he's [00:44:55] lost a lot of his like regular income from whatever job he has, and [00:45:00] he's made the foolish decision to take out a credit card so he can gamble there more. [00:45:05] Okay. That's a problem for that guy, and I don't think anyone would [00:45:10] deny that that's a problem. So the question then of [00:45:15] moral education is that we have to say, look, there's a virtue of.
[00:45:18] Self-control. There's a [00:45:20] virtue of stewardship. There's a virtue in, in being a [00:45:25] forward-looking person. The problem with trying to talk about moral [00:45:30] education is that people think that it stops at saying, Hey, don't gamble. Well, [00:45:35] sure not gambling. Would be the great thing for this [00:45:40] guy, but the problem of being a human being is that we can't just [00:45:45] stop.
[00:45:46] We have a very hard time not doing those things. No matter [00:45:50] how much we know they're a problem. And this is where [00:45:55] now we can do some structured self-examination [00:46:00] and we ask, what is that doing for you? Right. [00:46:05] Tell me more about. What's going on inside you [00:46:10] when you decide to do that? We ask much deeper questions [00:46:15] that help us to come to understand the core of this person [00:46:20] and what's being expressed in this action that is hurting him [00:46:25] and hurting others in a way or, or could potentially hurt others, could potentially drive [00:46:30] him to even more desperate and negative behavior.
[00:46:33] So it's not just a matter of saying, [00:46:35] Hey, gambling is bad. Don't do it. We really have to dig down and we, [00:46:40] and I think, help people like that to the degree that we can [00:46:45] do that kind of deep inner examination of themselves in [00:46:50] terms of what's going on here with you. And, and, and you were talking [00:46:55] about the therapist who says, Hey, turn here, or, or the one who says, [00:47:00] I noticed you've driven down this street.
[00:47:02] And I do think the, the, the one [00:47:05] who says, I noticed you chose to drove down this to drive down this street. That [00:47:10] probably is the better therapist, but it's easy to [00:47:15] confuse means and ends. And so with the guy who's addicted to [00:47:20] gambling, you know, we, let's say we say, oh, I, I noticed that. [00:47:25] You really spend a lot, you spend more money in the last six [00:47:30] months on your father's birthday than on any other day.
[00:47:34] Right. That's an [00:47:35] interesting thing to notice. Right. I'm curious about what's going on there. That is a [00:47:40] way of, that's a technique. But the, that's a means, but [00:47:45] the end, his growth in virtue, his growth in freedom, his [00:47:50] formation into more of the more of the person he's meant to be. And [00:47:55] so I think a lot of, when we talk about kind of standard psychological [00:48:00] approach is a confusion of means and ends.
[00:48:02] We think a lot of people tend to think [00:48:05] asking the better question or making the better observation is an end in itself, but it's actually [00:48:10] just a better means. For getting to the real end, which is positive [00:48:15] formation development and virtue freedom to be more of the person that you really [00:48:20] are. Those kinds of things.
[00:48:21] Stephanie Winn: You know, I don't want to straw man, Jonathan Shedler [00:48:25] and put words in his mouth that he didn't say, but I am [00:48:30] tempted to join you in making the case for why. Something. I [00:48:35] don't know if it, I don't know if moral education is exactly the right word for it, but [00:48:40] like the thing about healing or self-improvement or [00:48:45] behavior change or whatever the goal of psychotherapy might be is, you know, we [00:48:50] are moral creatures.
[00:48:51] Morality is part of what we [00:48:55] are, the cultivation of virtue. If that's not. Part of the process then, [00:49:00] like what are we doing? How can a person expect to feel whole, I guess if, [00:49:05] if they're not in a process of cultivating virtues? [00:49:10]
[00:49:10] Dean Abbott: Yes. So two things about that. First of all, when you were talk, giving the example of the therapist who says, [00:49:15] I know she drove down the street and the last time you mentioned the street, you told me you were beat up.[00:49:20]
[00:49:20] Okay. The only reason the therapist is even asking that question is because the therapist has a [00:49:25] deep internal sense that beating people up is wrong. Right? [00:49:30] Reality is inescapably moral. That's an easy thing for people to [00:49:35] deny, but even the story that you just told me. Is built on a moral [00:49:40] framework. 'cause a therapist is asking, in that situation, I wonder why you chose to drive down this [00:49:45] street where something immoral happened to you.
[00:49:48] So it's, it's, it's inevitable. What [00:49:50] you're saying is, you know, how do we ever make progress if we're not trying to be formed towards some [00:49:55] sort of virtue? That's what I was talking about at the beginning of our talk with the person [00:50:00] who is in a ruminative spiral where she's constantly looking for that thing in the [00:50:05] house.
[00:50:05] That's law. The person who's not engaged in that, you know, [00:50:10] deeply introspective and formative process [00:50:15] of virtue development result, it sort of resorts to kind of looking [00:50:20] in her house everywhere for this thing that she knows is lost, but she'll never find.
[00:50:23] Stephanie Winn: Help me with one more [00:50:25] little personal tip here, Dean.
[00:50:26] Okay. Because I'm, I'm really thinking like I'm, I'm applying our [00:50:30] conversation. To myself, and I'm thinking, you know, [00:50:35] generosity is such a core virtue for me and my husband. It was one of the [00:50:40] qualities that I noticed in him
[00:50:42] Dean Abbott: Mm.
[00:50:42] Stephanie Winn: That made me feel like we were aligned [00:50:45] and, and something I, I count on so deeply in him is that we're both generous and hospitable people.
[00:50:49] [00:50:50] So I know that generosity, hospitality, gregariousness, these are things that I [00:50:55] value that matter deeply to me in my character. And I don't wanna give them up, right? And so I'm [00:51:00] thinking like, if, if the problem that I'm looking to solve is that that [00:51:05] energy isn't coming back around to me when I need it, like what is the virtue that's [00:51:10] missing here?
[00:51:10] 'cause, 'cause those are the three virtues that. I'm saying are pretty strong [00:51:15] that I, I don't wanna give up here. I'm curious because you, you have this sort of [00:51:20] framework of having an external standard, right? And we're talking about the virtue. So is [00:51:25] it, is it just wisdom that sort of self-knowledge like we were talking about?
[00:51:28] Or is there another [00:51:30] virtue word that would be helpful for me to hang onto here?
[00:51:32] Dean Abbott: If you were coming to me as a coaching client, [00:51:35] I would wanna ask you. And I don't pretend to have the answer. I would [00:51:40] wanna ask you about how honest you
[00:51:41] are
[00:51:42] about your needs and how courageous you are [00:51:45] about just telling people what you need.
[00:51:46] So we would maybe talk, frame it in terms of [00:51:50] honesty and are you willing to say, Hey, this isn't working for me and I need something back. Do you have the [00:51:55] courage to do that? I don't know, but those are a couple of them, A couple of virtues that might [00:52:00] apply. Or even just to go to people and say, Hey, here's what I need from you.
[00:52:04] Stephanie Winn: [00:52:05] Yeah, yeah. No, it's a fair point. I mean, I think long-term listeners will be like Stephanie Wyn. [00:52:10] She's so honest and courageous, but about things that are bigger than myself, you know? But when it comes [00:52:15] to me, when it comes to me. That's a tough one. Absolutely. And I've been practicing that lately, [00:52:20] but it's been really hard 'cause I've just had to cut people off.
[00:52:22] I've just had to be like, I've known you two years. [00:52:25] I've invited you to like 10 things. You've never invited me to anything. I need my friends right now. Clearly you're not [00:52:30] interested in being a friend, you know?
[00:52:31] Dean Abbott: Right, right. Sure. And I think being honest about [00:52:35] that is. I think that's what part of what makes you a trustworthy person, if you're willing to be [00:52:40] honest about that.
[00:52:40] And I will say too, that, you know, virtues, they kind of [00:52:45] apply differently in some ways at a macro level versus a micro level, right? So one [00:52:50] thing to maybe be courageous about a political issue, it's another. To have the [00:52:55] courage to risk real personal relationships because they aren't working in some way.
[00:52:59] Stephanie Winn: [00:53:00] Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a good point. Not good at being vulnerable in personal relationships. Well, [00:53:05] tell us a little bit about, I know we have to wrap up soon, so I want you to, you know, have an opportunity to share what [00:53:10] it is that you do. 'cause in a moment I'll ask where people can find you. And I know that you do coaching [00:53:15] and that you have the title chaplain, so I'm curious where, where and how does [00:53:20] that work show up?
[00:53:20] Dean Abbott: Well, I do lots of coaching with. People who find [00:53:25] me online, I have been in. Kind of a [00:53:30] struggle the last few days because about 12 days ago, my Twitter account was hacked.
[00:53:34] Stephanie Winn: The [00:53:35] podcast scheme, right?
[00:53:36] Dean Abbott: Yeah. It's crypto. Crypto, I think.
[00:53:39] Stephanie Winn: Was it the [00:53:40] one, sorry? Was it the one where they DM you saying, vote for me in this podcast?
[00:53:43] Competition or co-hosting. [00:53:45]
[00:53:45] Dean Abbott: I don't know, maybe that sounds strangely familiar, but, uh, whatever's happening is that [00:53:50] someone who is not me is currently using my Twitter account to [00:53:55] scam people into buying crypto of some sort.
[00:53:58] Stephanie Winn: Oh, no. Even still you're still [00:54:00] locked out.
[00:54:00] Dean Abbott: Yeah. 12 days now.
[00:54:02] Stephanie Winn: Oh, yikes. So when I was just DMing you about our [00:54:05] technical issues, that was not you.
[00:54:07] Good thing you texted me instead.
[00:54:09] Dean Abbott: Right. [00:54:10] So sometimes I'm available there, and I, I have tended to get a lot of clients [00:54:15] through Twitter recently. That's kind of changed a lot. Well, not a lot, but begun to change [00:54:20] as I have sort of, people have found me in other ways. I've taken, taken a lot of [00:54:25] referrals from other coaches and, and, and that kind of thing lately.
[00:54:28] So I do a lot of that. I'm
[00:54:29] [00:54:30] also a writer. I'm kind of moving toward trying to get more [00:54:35] involved in the writing part of my life.
[00:54:36] The chaplaincy work is sort something that's still in [00:54:40] development as a, for a long time I've been ordained as a community chaplain, but [00:54:45] that's a different thing from being a clinical chaplain like you might encounter in a hospital or jail or [00:54:50] something.
[00:54:50] There's very specific training that is required to do that. And I've just finished one [00:54:55] course of that and that's something I'm interested in looking into too, is um, [00:55:00] you know, I guess what you would say is that vocationally, I'm just very interested in. [00:55:05] Where in the world do I have the opportunity to [00:55:10] bring some comfort, some light, [00:55:15] some aid to people who are in need?
[00:55:19] You know, I [00:55:20] have a particular set of gifts that kind of lend themselves to [00:55:25] particular manifestations of that mission. [00:55:30] If I were, I don't know, a really good baker or was really good at. [00:55:35] Technical things, those manifestations would look different, but I, I'm not either [00:55:40] of those and so I am just looking for that, uh, those [00:55:45] opportunities.
[00:55:45] It's part of my own formation. It's part of my own growth toward virtue [00:55:50] to, to constantly sort of be asking myself that question. So people could [00:55:55] typically have found me on Twitter at Dean Abbott, and maybe they will be someday [00:56:00] in the future, able to do that. But, uh, now I would suggest not doing [00:56:05] that and definitely not buying any crypto from me.
[00:56:08] Instead, uh, I [00:56:10] can be found@deanabbott.com. That is my website and my. [00:56:15] Substack. So there's lots of things I've written there that you could read. And also there's a [00:56:20] services tab that explains lots more about my coaching and how I work and what kind of [00:56:25] services I offer. And also I, I work some with a coaching [00:56:30] consortium called A Life Design.
[00:56:32] And you could find out about me there, life [00:56:35] design.org/dean. Well,
[00:56:38] Stephanie Winn: Dean Abbott, thank you so much. It's been [00:56:40] a pleasure speaking with you. I'm glad I finally got to know you a little bit.
[00:56:43] Dean Abbott: Yes, thank you so much.
[00:56:44] Stephanie Winn: [00:56:45] Alright, it's been a pleasure.
[00:56:46] Dean Abbott: Bye-bye.
[00:56:47] Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening too. You [00:56:50] must be some kind of therapist.
[00:56:52] If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a [00:56:55] moment to rate, review, share or comment on it using your platform of choice. [00:57:00] And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not [00:57:05] your therapist and. Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome [00:57:10] theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production.
[00:57:14] For [00:57:15] help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my [00:57:20] program for parents. ROGD Repair. [00:57:25] Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be [00:57:30] found in the notes and links below Rain or shine. I hope you will [00:57:35] step outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman.[00:57:40]
[00:57:40] With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [00:57:45] [00:57:50] [00:57:55] [00:58:00] [00:58:05] [00:58:10] [00:58:15] [00:58:20] world.