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The Space Between – Heaven on Earth is a companion podcast to Awakening – Heaven on Earth.
Through intimate, heart-centered conversations, this series explores the lived experience of awakening — the questions, integrations, paradoxes, and sacred pauses where transformation truly occurs.
This is the space between knowing and becoming…
where Heaven meets Earth through honest dialogue.
Welcome to the space between heaven on earth. This is a companion podcast to awakening heaven on earth created as a space for reflection, conversation, and lived experience. Here, we enter the pause between knowing and becoming, between insight and embodiment, between heaven and earth. These conversations are not about answers or conclusions. They are about presence, about listening, about reasoning together, about meeting one another honestly in the unfolding journey of awakening.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'm your host, Jeffrey Aylor. Again, welcome and thank you for entering The Space Between with us. Welcome to this episode of the space between. Throughout this season, we've expanded our circle of unity. We began with ourselves.
Jeffrey Aylor:Then our families and then our communities. From there we expanded out into systems. We've expanded into leadership and stewardship or the relationship with all life, and today perhaps we're going to reach one of the widest circles of all, and that is our spiritual family of humanity. This episode is called One Source, One Light, the Unity in All Paths. You know, every culture has asked, you know, why are we here?
Jeffrey Aylor:You know what is the purpose of life? And how should we live? So those questions have given a rise to a lot of different traditions, and today we're not asking which of these paths is better. We're certainly not going to ask whether this is right and that is wrong. We're here to look at.
Jeffrey Aylor:What is common? We're asking what might we learn? From each other. Regardless of where we are in the world, regardless of who we're interacting with. So with that, I'm going to first of all introduce who we have with us today.
Jeffrey Aylor:We have Pornadavy back and we love having you with us. We have my son, Joel Aylor. We have Joe Dermody and Sherry Keyes joining us in our conversation today. And I always like to begin with each one of you sharing one specific question. So has there been a moment when wisdom from another tradition outside of the one that you called your own or that deepened your initial understanding?
Jeffrey Aylor:How did that deepen your understanding to being exposed to that rather than threatening?
Purna Devi:Well, oh my gosh, I've had the benefit of really immersing myself in many traditions over the years. And, you know, I grew up a seeker in a household that was not seeking. Right? They were busy abusing one another, and I was the low income kid on the church bus, right, getting picked up by the pastor and getting picked up by the helpers of the Southern Baptist Church. And in fourth grade, I renounced the church because they said they wouldn't marry an interracial couple into the congregation, and I knew that was not love.
Purna Devi:So I'm kind of going back to go forward to answer your question here as I tend to do on this podcast. But that to me really sat me out on a journey of seeking beyond Christianity of what I knew of Christianity at the time, right, that was a tool to segregate and separate and discriminate. And I considered myself an atheist until I was in college and I had a college professor. She was a Catholic, Marianist, nun. I went to the University of Dayton and she considered herself a Hindu Buddhist Christian.
Purna Devi:And she blew my mind. I fell in love with this woman, sister Judith Martin, if you're out there. She was old even when I went to school twenty five years ago. But she blew my mind because I thought you can do that? You can what?
Purna Devi:Like, it it just I had never experienced someone so interfaith that was teaching at a really conservative Catholic school at that. And so I took all of her courses, Buddhism and women in religion and eastern religion and world religions, and that was my real first taste that I could. I consider myself a spiritual cherry picker now. Right? A patchwork quilt of all of these brilliant philosophies that resonate with my heart center.
Purna Devi:Right? I take what resonates and I leave the rest. So she was really my first opportunity to explore religion, a, outside of Christianity and b, an interfaith kind of way that gave me the opportunity. And it was through her that I really fell in love with the teachings of the Buddha. That was my first step outside of Christianity really was Buddhism.
Joel Aylor:Yeah. My path's kinda similar. Growing up, been a very strict Baptist denomination where you don't go outside the Bible for answers. Everything is inside that that book. That made it challenging.
Joel Aylor:I had lots of questions that didn't seem to get answered. So I questioned things throughout my childhood, not always out loud, but internally. Went through a as an as an adult after I graduated high school and, you know, actually towards the end of my college years, started becoming more interested in different different topics and looking into things, more or less just to kinda refute my own religion, really. It was more looking for answers that didn't seem to fit. I was looking for other people who had the same questions or came to different answers than than what I had currently just to see what made more sense in the Christian tradition.
Joel Aylor:But the experience out to to step outside of Christianity came when I kept seeing a nice bright orange book on the bookshelf with a face of a of a Hindu monk. I kept seeing it. Every time I went to the bookstore, I kept different bookstores. All of a sudden, it's like, why why do I keep seeing the same book? And then, you know, I looked at it.
Joel Aylor:I'm like, okay. This is interesting. The book was autobiography of a yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda and didn't buy it right away, but then I had came across an article right around the time that Steve Jobs had died. And I found out that Steve Jobs had one book on his iPod and one book only, and it was that one. And every person that attended his funeral received a copy of that
Jeffrey Aylor:book. K. So why did this,
Joel Aylor:you know, billionaire, for what whatever reason, have this one book? Why did it matter that much to him? So I picked it up, read it, blew my mind, completely loved it. And it's just a story about his life and his his his teachers and and his background. But to find out that basically, you know, I learned more from that book and from a couple of other his books about Christianity than I had from any other person who I had been around or read before.
Joel Aylor:So I learned from a Hindu monk the beauty of Christianity, and that absolutely has, you know, transformed you know, has basically got us to where we are today. Every this that was a big domino that just really knocked a whole lot of things forward.
Joe Dermody:So for me, it was growing up in a I was in a predominantly Christian environment growing up as well, but not super religious. But I had a lot of Jewish friends, and I started getting invites when I was younger to these bat mitzvahs and bar bar mitzvahs parties. And I was like, well, I don't don't know what this is, but sure. Let let's go to these parties and see about this. And I've always been interested in learning.
Joe Dermody:I'm always interested in my friends and, you know, started going to these as they started growing in their churches and their communities. And so that was my first experience into something other than a strict Christian upbringing, something different. And from that point, I've come to learn from a lot of different religious communities, what they go through, how they grow in their their own religious, you know, communities. And it's it's always been a and it hasn't always been a passion of mine to learn about that, but it is quickly becoming one. And I I love it.
Joe Dermody:It's it's it's fascinating to me to learn the similarities, the differences, and this is just a super fun experience for me.
Sherri Keys:I guess for me, growing up in a, you know, a Baptist background family, the thing that sticks out to me is just how my family just I mean, love doesn't have a color. It doesn't have a you know, love is just love. And I I grew up always understanding that, like, my mom, family, you know, they're no stranger. Right? Everybody has a place in our homes and very open.
Sherri Keys:So I've never I don't know, I've been around various cultures just in terms of just you know, professionally, personally. But I've always had a level of respect for what people value and what they love. Whereas I can also say I've never had a burning curiosity for that only because the things that I'm allowing myself to see are always it's always beautiful. And I felt like it's to be in a place where people can express in a good way what's important to them to allow them to grow and for the good is kind of how I view different aspects. So I'm still learning in this space.
Sherri Keys:And my first introduction to my international true trip was to Spain. And I will say, emerging yourself in a culture that is very different than your own in terms of the way they go about every day, not chores, but just how they lever things that are important to them. Getting up every morning and getting fresh foods from the corner grocery and things like that, and everyone walks and how they value history. That has allowed me to understand that the world is a lot bigger than what I allowed my footprint to see. But even in that, the curiosity is just so much rooted in love.
Sherri Keys:Like, I'm still growing in this faith, but, but I have realized that there's a a big bigger world around me that I haven't introduced myself to. So I'm really curious to moving forward with that.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, it's never too late. It's never too late to get out and and experience the big world as I like to call it. I've been somebody who's been blessed to live in a big world and travel extensively, and But you know, I was raised in a very traditional Christian home. My parents raised me as a primitive Baptist, which is a very Orthodox, very fundamentalist Christian group of people, wonderful people. Mean, the one thing I I don't want to do ever is talk negatively or badly because I've I've I love those people and I've learned a great deal and it's all been a part of my experience.
Jeffrey Aylor:None of those are negative or bad. It's just a part of your where you are on your path at that time. It's like saying one town on a trip is better than another when you have to go through all of them to get to where you're going. Right? And it just so happens that the vast majority of us that are here this morning talking about this all started in some form of Christian religion.
Jeffrey Aylor:And and that's okay. And I think it's important that. In many cases, my experience has come very much a full circle where I I was taught to fear. Anything that anyone taught outside of the small little group of people that I was associated with. I even got to the point where when I would see somebody who was of a different, even a different Christian group, right?
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? It wasn't just that if you weren't Christian, it's either there's a division in and among Christian people. That's that's amazing to me.
Joel Aylor:65,000 of them, right?
Jeffrey Aylor:It's just crazy. And and you know, the people that I'm with would say, Oh, yeah, I know they showed love, but that's not their love isn't real love because they don't this or that, right? So in that that what that showed me or what I came to realize is that love was not unconditional. Love was very conditional to people. Now my travel around the world has opened that because I've had the opportunity to work extensively with the in India and throughout Asia, people of the, you know, Hindu faith, the Muslim faiths, the Buddhist faiths, multiple, you know, versions of Christianity, Islam, so I'm I've been exposed to a lot of people and what I can tell you is that they are all.
Jeffrey Aylor:They're all wonderful people, and that was probably what was like. Wait a minute, they're missing something. There's something missing here that I need to figure out, you know. And even before Joel introduced me to Paramahansa Yogananda, which I thought was it. He was concerned.
Jeffrey Aylor:You can tell that little story about how concerned you were about sharing what you were learning and hearing. But I got to a point where I was ready. I questioned the fundamentalist to teach and I even taught them. But I questioned them and was going on a lot of different paths that were not considered traditional with that group of people even before. Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:So, you know, again, I think you made the comment, Joel, that, you know, we have to enter this and and and Purney, you had the same experience. You have to enter things with more of an open mind. You have to have a much more open mind to to be able to see what we're talking about.
Joel Aylor:Yeah, I mean you have to be curious. You can't if you if you're not curious and keep an open mind, you're never actually gonna actually expand yourself or evolve in your understanding. So you want me to tell you the story about
Jeffrey Aylor:it? Yeah. Tell the story. I think it's awesome.
Joel Aylor:So, I mean, you you were obviously a minister in that same denomination of of, of the Baptist, and but you were also one who would question their teachings, and it ruffled feathers. And you, you know, you brought it was all always, I mean, I I I went through that with you, but I didn't really I wasn't always paying attention. But I came across those same things that you would, you know, go against, you know, whether whether it be the second coming of Christ or the idea of hell and whether or not that's true or not, things like that. Those things embolism. Right.
Joel Aylor:So you were always questioning things, so you were in that mindset, but you had just gotten you know, that church had kinda dissolved. You and mom had just started at a different church where she had finally come back to to go into church setting and enjoyed that and had friends and all that. And I didn't want to be somebody who who came in and said, hey. Look at this from completely outside of of that. So I'd I I felt like it wasn't the time yet because you were in a transition or just you know, I didn't know where you were, you know, internally.
Joel Aylor:So I felt like it wasn't time yet. There's something, a little voice in my head saying, it's just not time yet. Just let this continue for a little while and see where it comes, see where it goes. And, you know, keep learning yourself, but just just give it time. And it probably took two years.
Joel Aylor:It's probably two full years before I finally got to a point in one day where I'm like, that little voice said, okay. Now it's time.
Jeffrey Aylor:Let's go do it. You do know that this whole podcast is really about that little internal voice talks to
Joel Aylor:you. Yeah.
Purna Devi:How old were you, Joel, when when you discovered that book and then sat on it for two years?
Joel Aylor:I discovered the book, I think, in around 2019. Okay. Yeah. And it was it absolutely you know, I mean, I had been on So
Jeffrey Aylor:he's in his mid thirties. Yeah. Or, yeah, early mid thirties.
Joel Aylor:Right? Yeah. But it was when and I didn't introduce it to you in '21, '22, somewhere around '22, I think. So I had sat on it for a little while, and it just like I said, it was just one day. We just said, okay.
Joel Aylor:It's time.
Jeffrey Aylor:And that's the universe, the universe knows timing, the universe understands. You know, when we have been prepared to receive something and use it effectively, the worst thing in the world you want to do is introduce someone to something and it's not time.
Joel Aylor:Right? Yeah, just be it's met with resistance.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah, it can have it can have the negative or opposite effect of what you know, you might hope it would many cases. Right?
Joel Aylor:And that's what I feared is that you would be like, what is this? I don't want to. I don't want
Jeffrey Aylor:to read this. But now now look at it. Yeah, right. Look at where we are. We have such great experience now and and have reached out and built these great relationships, and it just continues to grow, and I just I just love it.
Jeffrey Aylor:And I'm hoping, you know, whole purpose of this of this work is for people to have this same kind of experience we're having, and to open themselves up and to have these kinds of opportunities to meet and talk with people and learn and grow. I think that's if we can do that with one or two people, I'm happy. All right, let's jump into section one of our questions. You know what? It's so fun because I can already tell this is going to be a great discussion.
Jeffrey Aylor:So let's talk about what I'm going to call the universal human search. Again, you know, having traveled, I can tell you that people ask the same questions. They may use a different language, and they certainly come at it from different cultures, but we all have the same basic human questions, which I think is important. So this first question is why do you think every culture has searched for meaning and transcendence?
Purna Devi:I think it's simple really because suffering is universal. Human suffering is universal. Death is universal. Life is universal, right? Not to jump ahead, but what are some of the questions that transcend?
Purna Devi:Where did I come from? Where am I going? And why do I have so much pain while I'm here? What am I to do?
Jeffrey Aylor:Right.
Purna Devi:Right? And so I think a lot of the conversation is really around transcending suffering. And then these, you know, these packages, these different dogmas or spiritual traditions have developed really out of humanity's understand and pacify their own suffering and also to gather in community, right, to understand the need of our shared humanity, of the fact that we are pack animals, that we must come together to support one another in those very basic universal experiences of life and death and birth and suffering while we're here.
Joel Aylor:You you constantly ask questions. If it doesn't if it doesn't sit well within you, there's a reason for that. You know, whatever your tradition is that you grew up in, does it provide you comfort? Does it actually just does it does it feel right? And some people can say, you know, yes to whatever they've been taught, but then eventually, start to come into situations where it doesn't what you believe just kinda comes at odds with with reality.
Joel Aylor:And we've been taught so much to, you know, not question that, that you you this is the way it is. But I think that internally, we always have those questions going on. Hey. What if this isn't right? What if it actually is something else?
Joel Aylor:And I think we always are having those questions sometimes daily in our normal interactions with people or in the world. Wonder why is there so much suffering? If there is if it's supposed to be, you know, a different way, why are we continuing to suffer? Why are we continuing to have bad things happen? I think every day, especially if you turn on the news, you're gonna have those questions.
Joel Aylor:And if it if your tradition doesn't, you know, have a good answer for it, then you go searching for it, or at least you should. Go find something else that that helps you understand this better, because no no one tradition has all the answers. They have little pieces of it, and that's that's okay. Go get a little piece here and then a little piece there, like you said, from your your teacher. You know, she can't you you or yourself.
Joel Aylor:You bring in what what resonates with you, and that's exactly what you're supposed to do. But I think that's what so many people are closed off to, especially in our our our Western Christianity. They they try to get you not to question things, but I think that's completely normal. Heck. Even the Jews I mean, the the the term Jew or Hebrew is one who wrestles with God.
Joel Aylor:Yeah. Who asked the hard question Israel. The question Israel. The term Israel. Okay.
Joel Aylor:Neu the new is something along those lines. One who wrestles with God. It's completely natural and normal to have these questions internally, but we struggle to allow ourselves to do that. But if you actually follow down that path and seek, you will find.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right. Yeah. Jacob would was wrestling with the angel, right, God. Yeah. And that's when his name was changed to one who wrestles with God or Israel is where the term comes
Joel Aylor:from. There
Jeffrey Aylor:it is.
Joel Aylor:I knew it was something along those lines.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah. And I want to expand our conversation beyond just what we would perceive as different religions, because the same questions that Pern is talking about, and the same suffering that she's talking about is dealt with in psychology, philosophy. It's dealt with now in quantum physics. So there are there are groups outside of what most people would even consider religious that have sought answers to these questions. And I think that they're all they all have found good answers just with different perspectives, a different perspective.
Jeffrey Aylor:So I don't wanna exclude those things from our conversation today if we get the opportunity. So
Joel Aylor:And I don't think religion overall is a bad thing. I think in in many times throughout history, it's actually saved humanity. It's allowed a a coming together, a common thread, and it keeps things, you know, going. It's a problem is when you attach to it completely, it becomes your entire identity and it becomes the end all be all. That's when things get get to be a problem.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, and we've gotta we've gotta get over the fact that suffering in some cases is a bad thing, because it's not. That's just why I think a lot of the traditions actually teach that suffering is a teacher. The suffering is a teacher is what puts us in a position. And most cases for you to have growth, you've got to be put in a position of discomfort,
Joel Aylor:Right? Otherwise, you'll
Jeffrey Aylor:just difficulty or pain that causes you to be able to expand beyond your current capability and realize you have the capacity to absorb and deal with more than what you thought you could. And. You know, I think most of us in this conversation have come to the to the agreement that this is Earth school. Earth is a school. And and and I think even people who believe that there's life outside of our Earth, which I do believe by the way, that that living beings come here, and this is probably one of the most difficult but most valuable schools in all of of the universe.
Jeffrey Aylor:But it is difficult. The suffering is real, but it has it serves its purposes. I mean, I know because I've gone through some serious suffering and continued as we all do.
Purna Devi:You know, if I may, I think in this conversation, it's important to talk about exclusivity versus inclusivity. Right? So a lot of us, what I hear is we're coming from backgrounds. We're understanding that the Western model, the Christian model, and, you know, I would even extend that to the Judeo Christian model is a model of exclusivity. You must subscribe to this set of principles.
Purna Devi:This is the way, and there's no other way. And I think the beauty of exploring Eastern philosophies and Vedanta and the yogis and the wisdom of the Buddhas and these Eastern faith traditions and even psychology and quantum physics and all of these other brilliant traditions that help us understand life and suffering is there's an inclusivity. It's not saying you have to exclusively subscribe to this one thing and this one thing only.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah. And and you're right. And and I was struggling with the concept that the foundations of these traditions are pure, but just like with anything, man will take it and corrupt it.
Purna Devi:Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:So we can sit and talk about how Christianity has become corrupted because people use it to manipulate. They use it to coerce people. They use it for power and control. The same things have happened to many of the other traditions. It's not unique to Christianity.
Jeffrey Aylor:You get a group of people who want power within that particular group, and they will do things, and they will corrupt teachings, and they will manipulate them in order to convince people that to follow them. Right? And that's really what I was trying to form in my mind here when I was having a, I call it a brain cramp, is this idea that just because people misuse the traditions in every tradition is not the gate, the beauty, and the foundation of truth that exists across them. And I think that's really important for it is for me to understand that because I do know that there are people of these other faiths that have used their faith for bad things, not good things. I think
Joel Aylor:that just kinda ties into what we've been talking about. Basically, you know, our own traditions were were abusing those teachings. Right. And we went out and basically found something outside of it that really reenlightened and reignited the fire of the beauty of the actual Christian fit, you know, tradition and what what it was actually teaching.
Joe Dermody:Well, I think too that, you know, I've just kind of had that whole putting it all together moment as well for the whole podcast, right, the whole series of it all that, you know, we've all every one of us have gone through that that veil of forgetting. And, really, what did we forget? We just forgot that unconditional love that we have experienced. Right? So we come into this new environment without that love, and the first thing that we're feeling is that fear.
Joe Dermody:Right? And that fear because that love has been taken away from us.
Joel Aylor:And with that
Joe Dermody:fear enveloping us, what are we really searching for when we're back here is that love. And all of us, no matter where we're at in the world, what part of the world, we're just searching for love in our own way, and I think that's what we're looking for here. Right? And so the question was, you know, why do you think every culture has searched for meaning and transcendence? It's because they're looking for love.
Joe Dermody:They're all just searching for that love that they have lost, you know, and forgot. And so I think that's really what it all comes down to is they're all searching for love.
Jeffrey Aylor:Isn't it that simple?
Joe Dermody:I I think it is. I honestly think that's it's that simple. Now you can dig into it a lot more, and we can go into the psychology. We can go into the science. You can go into the individual religions.
Joe Dermody:But I think, ultimately, they're all searching for that love that they're missing that they've experienced.
Jeffrey Aylor:I think that is well said. Well said.
Joe Dermody:So and and we're gonna get into the specifics because I know us all, and that's fantastic. And that helps other people see it differently from a different light, and then that's wonderful, and that'll help. But I think it's simply they're all searching for love.
Sherri Keys:I mean, I still go back to the fact that the common thread is people across different religions are not only searching for love, they're searching for love because they're going through some element of pain. So pain gets us to a point where we're trying to understand purpose and answer why, and that why leads you to a conversation around what's the better piece? Where do I get to the part that's good? Where do I get to that? You know, it's because Jesus loves me or whatever religion that, you know, we're we're speaking to that that higher being, there's there's that love there.
Sherri Keys:So I I truly believe that because if we don't believe that, then then we're all lost because why are we going through all these things? And I can kind of relate to that just personally too. I didn't believe that there was something bigger than me, and I think we all can, I know we all can on this podcast, then it would make this very difficult because then you don't understand what's the purpose? Why am I going through these challenges? If there's something, there has to be something bigger than me.
Sherri Keys:There has to be something rooted in love. There has to be a bigger purpose. And I think every religion, our common thread is that trying to get to that understanding of that bigger purpose. And I remember always thinking in my journey, people used to say, well, you can't question God. And it was like, just can't question God.
Sherri Keys:That's a sin. And my, my, awakening part of my journey was why would I not be able to question God? Who else would have the answer? Who else is gonna allow me to understand why I'm going through this part of my journey? What's the purpose?
Sherri Keys:What am I to learn? What am I to glean from it? How am I supposed to love differently? How am I supposed to help another person? Yeah, I think common thread is, as I look in history, as I look in anything, I think it goes back to the original comment.
Sherri Keys:It's like we share a need to understand why we're going through what we're going through and know, and needing that love, that purpose, that bigger thing out there to guide us through the to the light.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, I think together we've we've really answered the question, know, do all human beings seem to ask the same questions regardless of where they live? I think they do. I think that experience is universal. And now we want to kind of jump into, you know, when we start to look beyond or beneath the doctrines and the dogmas and practices that make up all these different religions around the world, we often will uncover a recurring theme. And I want to touch on that what I'll call shared wisdom that exists between all these.
Jeffrey Aylor:So the next question really is what common values do you see that appear across all these different and many traditions?
Purna Devi:I think some of the common threads, right, are are really just these core human values that if like you said, you strip away the doctor and you strip away the dogma. What is it? Compassion, forgiveness, service to others, generosity, honesty. And I think even beyond these, what are those symptoms of? They're remembering our shared humanity, remembering our individual wholeness.
Purna Devi:And I go back to Advaita Vedanta, and it teaches us to remember our true nature. Well, what is our true nature? And we studied this in Reiki. Right? What are what are the qualities if I say, right, I I want to do these practices to become my true nature.
Purna Devi:Well, what is my true nature? And sometimes you look at your true nature by understanding what I'm not. Right? I'm not my anger, I'm not my worry, I'm not my divisiveness, right? I'm not my frustration.
Purna Devi:And so then you take what are the opposites of those things? I am my patience, my compassion, my service, my care for others. So it's those kinds of qualities. I think that really, we juice out the sweet nectar of the divine that expands through all of these belief systems. It's those things.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. Big
Joel Aylor:big thing that I think is in all these traditions is a a sense of presence, a sense of going within yourself. I think they all point that way, and that was one thing that I think, you know, the way I grew up didn't fully understand that when I was internal and having those questions and wanting to find those answers, that it felt uncomfortable going internal, but it was always
Jeffrey Aylor:I mean,
Joel Aylor:that's me. That was that's coming from a a true a true place. But understanding that that presence is a good thing and that that that's where you find the answers is was something that was very valuable to me. And and I found that in the teachings of Yogananda, but then also, you know, within Buddhism, then and eventually even learned that it was in Christianity too. So it was all there.
Joel Aylor:You know, to find that common thread was was very valuable to me.
Joe Dermody:I think there's also the gratitude, the the peace reconciliation, the golden rule, transcendence. I think those are all shared as well. And I know, you know, we're all saying the same thing. But there, see it in in all of the major religions, all of the major teachings. It's it's it's in every single one of them.
Joe Dermody:If you stop and go back far enough, stop stop looking at the fanatics on both sides of everything and go back to the core, it's really there. And it's all based in in love. I'm gonna keep saying it this whole podcast and probably forever now.
Jeffrey Aylor:What you're
Joel Aylor:doing is making a great transition to next season. So
Joe Dermody:But it's true. Not not not intentionally, but, yes, you're you're right.
Jeffrey Aylor:Good segue.
Sherri Keys:I'm sorry. But, you know, I don't have anything majorly different than what everyone's saying, but just, you know, emphasize the word purpose, you know, seeking purpose, and whatever that means to everyone.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, it it it it helps when you get to experience people from other traditions, and you get to see I I I've told this story once before. I think, you know, I was in a country that was predominantly Muslim. I'm working. I can honestly tell you that it was it was a great experience. I never felt any discomfort or unsafe being there.
Jeffrey Aylor:And when I watched people when I watched them how they interacted and their families, they are just going through all the same things we go through just in a different part of the world. They may have a different skin color, they may have a different foundational principle belief and religion. But the fact is, is they all were living life just like we live life. And that is that is simple as that sounds as profound. That and and and honestly, is the spirit.
Jeffrey Aylor:There's characteristics of the spirit, which is universal in all of us. That manifestation of God within us as source within us. You know, I always was raised to believe that God was outside of me. Always looking outside. Looking and outsourcing things to this God that was outside of me when in reality.
Jeffrey Aylor:The God is within me. The wisdom, the divine wisdom, the presence is all within me. The voice you talk about that is speaking to you. It's all within you. And that that was the full circle moment for me when it came to Christianity because I didn't think Christianity taught those principles, but it does.
Jeffrey Aylor:They're just hidden from you. They're you're misguided and misled to not believe that because then if you realize that you are able within yourself to seek and find the answers to the greatest questions of life, then you don't need this minister. You don't need this clergy. You don't need this hierarchy system. You are self sufficient, and they don't like that, and they don't want that.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, that same issue exists not just in Christianity exists in all the religions, again, to the point that people will use them for power and control and manipulation. So you have to watch in all of them for that that issue. That But across all those traditions that the common values of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness. All those things are common in every tradition. Every tradition.
Jeffrey Aylor:So. I love this question, but you know what teachings from other traditions that you came in contact with really enriched your own journey? And how did you find that strengthened your faith in your existing? Tradition.
Purna Devi:Well, I, you know, already opened this conversation with my story of my breaking down of my Christian belief system that I was taught, right? And I've had those full circle moments as well. I became an atheist for many years and then I really discovered a love for Buddhism, right? And dove into Buddhism and then realized that's an extension of Hinduism, right? They call Buddhism, Hinduism for the lay people.
Purna Devi:And so then I immersed myself in Buddhism or Hinduism rather, and dove head first into the Yoga Sutras and the Bhagavad Gita. And I'm blessed with a Swami, with a teacher myself, who is a Hindu monk. And he really helped me come back around to Christian teachings because he teaches on Jesus's teachings, the platitudes. Right? These these basic fundamental teachings that are are devoid of that, the controlling aspect of man that we've been talking about that has turned many of us off to the Christian faith.
Purna Devi:And so I think, again, it was, I had to leave home to come back home full circle. And I think that that's the journey for many of us, especially Westerners, right? Who have been under the thumb of these exclusive, oppressive, divisive groups, right, of people with their own agendas. And then we go out and we seek and we see, oh my gosh, Eastern philosophies. That's what it was for me.
Purna Devi:It was East meets West. And then there was just a beautiful expression of unity. Right? And of, like you said, that God consciousness is within me, not without. And so really diving into those teachings that helped me understand that I have a direct connection, that I am God's source, that God's source is within me and within everyone, not just me, right?
Purna Devi:So it's not just a self serving spirituality, it's in the people I don't like, right? And that's a hard one to swallow, right? So to help us dissolve some of that divisiveness using these Eastern philosophies to really connect deeper with those whose values I do oppose and who oppose my own and seeing the God source within them too, And then coming back full circle through my own Swamy's teachings of Jesus has been a beautiful gift. And, you know, I owned a yoga studio for many years in a small town here, and you
Sherri Keys:would
Purna Devi:have thought they thought I was the devil. The small town, they were, you know, lots of negative things were said about me and what I was doing, my witchcraft and my devil practice, just teaching yoga and yoga philosophy. And it was their lack of understanding and their fear. And I would have crosses stuck in my flower beds. Little did they know Jesus was on my altar next to Buddha, next to Shiva, next to the divine mother Durga, right?
Purna Devi:And all of these beautiful examples of divinity and their iconography. And I always think that that's just such an interesting experience that if they would have come in, they could have seen just how interfaith we were.
Joel Aylor:Yeah. Same for me. So when I came across Yogananda's teachings and started to learn the yoga sutras and what they actually meant and actually doing the physical know, the the physical work of of yoga, but then being able to learn to sit still and and and breathe, the power of the breath and the power of of being able to sit still and what that exposes and what that shows you. And to to find, like you said, that you have on your altar, you have a Hindu person, you also have Jesus, and so did Yoda Yogananda. Yogananda did not discredit Jesus.
Joel Aylor:In fact, he he he didn't worship him, but he but he basically felt he was a master. And and, you know, and it wasn't anything he took away. He didn't take anything away from him. He he he thought he was impressive. So that's one thing that really blew my mind because it wouldn't work the other way.
Joel Aylor:You wouldn't go into those people's homes and find, you know, their cross, but also, you know, any of these yogic masters. You wouldn't find it. You wouldn't find the Buddha sitting next to Jesus even though I think they're one and the same. They taught the same message. But so I found that hypocritical.
Joel Aylor:And but then I also learned through him and through all these other yogis and that I read about, they taught how Jesus taught this. They showed his the story of him and where it actually was. So if you pay a lot of times, if you pay attention to what is not said in Christian scriptures, you'll find it. You'll find that basically when when he would when Jesus would go into places and and heal people, eventually, he would go and be off on his own. And he didn't talk about what he was doing because he was taking time to himself.
Joel Aylor:I guarantee you, he was going and sitting and meditating and reconnecting and finding himself and finding the power within him because he was human. And that's and that was that was enlightening. It's like, you know, what was he doing? He was doing he was doing these practices that we aren't learning about. For some reason, I don't know why people in the Christian faith find that threatening.
Joel Aylor:It doesn't take anything away from them.
Purna Devi:You know, the image on my altar is Jesus in a meditative pose.
Joel Aylor:I have a statue of him him meditating.
Purna Devi:And there are so many stories that that Jesus studied with masters.
Joel Aylor:Oh, and well, you know, there's eighteen years missing in his story.
Purna Devi:Where did he go?
Joel Aylor:Well, there's there's they're finding the history of it. They're finding proof that he was in India.
Purna Devi:That's right. I've got gooses as we talk about it. It's like, oh my gosh. Of course. And why not, you know, why renounce that truth?
Purna Devi:Why not bring that into the teachings? What's so scary about the idea of connecting to
Joel Aylor:what point, you'd you'd lose the power. Yeah. You lost the power. And and I think I think I think these I think we'll find books eventually or things that show it, but
Jeffrey Aylor:the Catholic church hid it
Joel Aylor:in their archives even if if they didn't destroy it altogether, all for the sake of power.
Joe Dermody:Well But shows unity.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right. The way you get power is to divide. You divide. Right? I'm gonna divide this group so that I can lead it and control it.
Joel Aylor:Well, if you're if you become self sufficient like he was teaching, like all these other people are teaching, then you don't need them. And that was the last thing they wanted. They wanted to have something to to hold over top of people.
Sherri Keys:Excellent. And
Joe Dermody:for me for me, it's meditation. So learning that, again, just like Joel said too, that it's how all of these different religions have so much in common. And by me learning how to sit with myself and meditate and has helped me to see things more clearly to help put things in order, and just start to organize my thoughts better and be able to see things like this and just start to see that we're all together in this. We're this is all the same thing. Just we're calling it different things based on where we live.
Joe Dermody:So, yeah, I would say meditation is the one of the big things that I'm taking from other, and also seeing that it's also here too. The religion that I grew up with, we just didn't necessarily call it that and it's not as evident.
Sherri Keys:I think for me, getting coming to the realization that God is within you. And because of that, you can't fail. And growing up thinking that you had to be kind of in a temple to speak to God and questions were questioning was not a good thing. It was sinning and living through life's challenges somewhat which were very difficult, and realizing that I wasn't in the temple, but God was listening to me.
Jeffrey Aylor:Oh, that that was that was a turning point is when I actually believed exactly what Jesus said to us, and that is that the kingdom of God is within you. He said it, and it's all there, and and all these other traditions firmly teach that. But that's not what Christianity taught me. And yet it was right there all along. And, and glossed over and not taught and not the kingdom of God is within you.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's not a place. It's not a distant realm. It's not a God is not distant. God is in you. You are God.
Jeffrey Aylor:The ye are gods. Ye are gods. Jesus himself says he does your scripture not say ye are gods. Gods with the little g. Not the one.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? But you are because you're an element of the one. We are all elements of the one. And that's the foundational teaching of all these basic religions. I love that.
Jeffrey Aylor:I love that. It's beautiful, and I don't care that they use a different name. I don't care that they use a different name for their expression of God. That doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter.
Jeffrey Aylor:Evangelical Christians that, they very openly will tell you that Jesus is exclusive. He was exclusive, And I don't find that Jesus was exclusive. I find that evangelical Christians are exclusive. There's a difference. And so and I don't want to be negative because they are where they are, and they're experiencing things based on what they've been taught.
Jeffrey Aylor:And even the things they believe have value. There are values that they exhibit that are wonderful. But, you know, we're all we're all learning and we're all growing and we're all in different places. And the and the thing is that we have to realize is that's okay. It is okay.
Jeffrey Aylor:It is totally okay. I think everybody's going to be fine. In the end, all of us are going to be fine. And I think that's another great teaching I've learned from, you know, many of these other traditions. Now I will say probably reincarnation is a pivotal teaching that is very openly taught in these other traditions that is absolutely not taught in any real area of Christianity, maybe except mysticism, because I I'm a mystic.
Jeffrey Aylor:If I were to classify myself as anything, I am a mystic. I adhere to the mystic principles of all the traditions. But mysticism to be a mystic is someone who believes in oneness, and that's what the whole concept of this is about unity and oneness. So I now consider myself based on those different teachings across our traditions, a mystic at this point. And it has strengthened my faith in Christianity because as I go back and reread, and as I read portions of Scripture that have been excluded from what most people perceive to be the bible that are out there.
Jeffrey Aylor:I think maybe one of the purest versions would be the Ethiopian bible. Not sure if any of you've had exposure to that, but the Ethiopian bible was not tainted by Rome, and many of the documents that were, to your point, Joel, probably destroyed or hidden or squirreled away somewhere in a library that they weren't they weren't taken out of the Ethiopian Bible. And it that's why I I'm thankful that you've got this little part of the world that was not touched where they could preserve something like that. And the teachings that are contained in it. So I think that's that's beautiful.
Jeffrey Aylor:These these teachings are wonderful across all these traditions, and it's a blessing to have them. So let's touch on. How do we? How do we do this learning though? Could we touch on this early that fear is probably one of the the greatest reasons why people will not question.
Jeffrey Aylor:They won't be curious. They're afraid of what other people are going to think of them. They're afraid that they're going to get in trouble with whoever they're associated with. If they do that, you know, Porny, you've talked about the response people in your community had about, you know, you teaching yoga and and principles of yoga. And you know, so how do we learn?
Jeffrey Aylor:How do we learn about these other traditions without losing ourselves? You know, sometimes people the. People fear that if they were to appreciate someone else's path or point of view, that somehow that causes them to lose their own. It diminishes their own path, yet a real genuine dialogue or conversation like we're having here. It can in many cases I tell people you if what I say is true and you learn it, then that's growth.
Jeffrey Aylor:If what I say is not true and you learn that that just strengthens your belief in what you already know. Great. There's no loss. It's all gain to have the dialogue. So you know.
Jeffrey Aylor:But they think it's going to dilute their current, you know, convictions and things. So how do we remain deeply rooted yet also remain open?
Purna Devi:Well, I think curiosity is key. I think knowing oneself is key, and having discernment is key. Right? If I'm a shaky leaf and you come with your belief system and I'm not if I don't have the conviction and I'm not rooted and grounded in my own or I've just drank the punch of somebody else's, right, I need to be in an echo chamber. You come with your own belief system, and I oh my gosh.
Purna Devi:Right? I fall right off my own branch. So I think it's about having deep roots in knowing who I am and what I believe first with an openness. I don't know I I don't believe I have all the answers either. So I think that there's benefit to staying open and staying curious and also discerning.
Purna Devi:Right? Because I know myself, I am comfortable with someone else's belief system. They don't have to think like me. So I'm not going out trying to convince everyone of my own belief system, and I'm also not necessarily easily convinced because I have discerned and developed my own relationship with the divine that informs me and allows me to stay open, curious, compassionate to others' ways of being and other you know, you've you've probably heard me say this in, Reiki training that, what does belief system stand for? BS.
Purna Devi:Bullshit. We all have it. We all subscribe Mhmm. To our own BS. Mhmm.
Purna Devi:Don't we? And so I think that it's like how deeply convinced am I that my BS is the one ultimate truth. Right? Is there space and room to have curious open dialogues and conversation like this? Do I need to stay in an echo chamber echo chamber because I'm actually weak in my belief system?
Purna Devi:Right? So I think, yeah, I think staying open and curious, remaining teachable and having the discernment of your own relationship with the divine is crucial.
Joel Aylor:Yeah. Curiosity isn't the the enemy of faith. It's fear that is. But that fear comes from not knowing yourself. I think that question deeply rooted in your understanding of who you are is not is you're not deeply rooted if you're completely attached to your identity of, you know, I'm a you know, myself.
Joel Aylor:I'm if if I can describe myself as, you know, a 41 year old man, you know, from The United States, I'm a pharmacist. That's a that's a story. That's not me. It's just it's just, you know, what I've created in a life. To be deeply rooted in yourself and understand yourself, you have to have that and be comfortable there before you can be completely curious and open to anything and everything and be able to bounce those ideas off yourself.
Joel Aylor:People don't do that. That's what's missing. People wrap themselves up in their identities of what their day to day life is, not realizing that's not their true self.
Jeffrey Aylor:So who is that? What what term do we give that? That element of who we think we are, but we're not.
Purna Devi:That's the ego.
Jeffrey Aylor:The ego. Right?
Purna Devi:Yeah. That's the ego. The the identity. Right? Those are the labels and identities that we've we've boxed ourselves in.
Joel Aylor:And if you're rooted in that, it's a superficial root.
Jeffrey Aylor:Correct.
Joel Aylor:It'll easily
Jeffrey Aylor:be ripped up.
Purna Devi:Yeah. And it's gonna be difficult. Right?
Joel Aylor:And that's where the fear comes in because the ego is scared to death of losing that identity.
Purna Devi:Absolutely. It does not have its power.
Joel Aylor:As soon as you start questioning it, you get scared because it changes who you who you are. You have to change your identity. You had to go through that with your teachings as a as a minister. You you you you attacked or went after some core dogmatic principles, and you had to be comfortable, you know, doing that. Something like I mean, people completely wrap themselves up in that, and that's superficial.
Joel Aylor:So you have to go through that. You have to get rid of that ego and be deeply rooted in yourself in order to be fully curious and be able to be, you know, able to discern correctly. Otherwise, you feel attacked. Otherwise, you feel scared because your entire world crumbles. So that that's where curiosity really blossoms is when you are actually deeply rooted in something real.
Jeffrey Aylor:In in the Christian faith, there's a lot of teaching about dying to self and living right to spirit and never really understood that concept as much as I thought I did. Until I came to the understanding of this concept of ego, right versus the true self, the higher self, the spirit which is eternal. And I think you talked on, you used a word, Joe, I think you used the same word superficial. There's this, the ego is very superficial. It's very limited in what the depth it will allow it to understand itself from or other people from.
Jeffrey Aylor:Because just as you do with your own ego, the way you define yourself with your ego, you define other people the same way. And it's a very superficial kind of existence and perception of reality. Joe, you also made a comment about love and how we forget we forget it. We we never lost it. It's always there.
Jeffrey Aylor:We just forget it. We cover it up and wrap it up, and we can't see it because of the superficial covering of the ego. And this is why I love to bring in the concepts of psychology because where does that term come from? I can tell you right now, I've read the Bible many, many, many, many, many, many times. I've now read a lot of these other sacred traditions many and they don't talk about ego.
Jeffrey Aylor:The word ego is not in them. Where's the word ego come from? Psychology. It comes from psychology. Somehow we've got to get that teaching together.
Jeffrey Aylor:Because it's a missing element of understanding. The teaching is in those scriptures and in those different writings. It's just not that's not the term that's used.
Joe Dermody:And that was gonna be my question. So my question was gonna be, here we are talking about the ego in this podcast, but I haven't heard that term growing up. I never thought about this at all, right, until we started talking. Right? Maybe I mean, I've heard the word ego, but not used in this kind of context.
Joe Dermody:Right? Never thought of it as something that we would hide behind, something that we are using to mask our true selves. Right? So and I didn't know if it's a a western thing, if it is a Christian thing, something that we are using as this mask that we have to suppress. Right?
Joe Dermody:Or, again, Jeff, to your to to your point, what what have we called it or that I've been thinking of this as growing up, or did I not even realize that my true self existed, which is probably more likely, that I need to to get in touch with. Right? Because I think that that's the real problem with our society right now is that we don't realize that our true self exists that we need to slow down and get in touch with. And if we did, I think that's where this awakening part takes place. Right?
Joe Dermody:And I think that's what we all need to try to strive towards and slow down.
Jeffrey Aylor:Awakening is. It's an awakening to the fact that you you are not your ego. Right are and you aren't right. You can't say you're not. Right.
Jeffrey Aylor:But it is a superficial part of your existence. It's not your true and highest self. So we've talked about leadership. We've talked about stewardship over these episodes. Who do you who do you think our leaders are?
Jeffrey Aylor:What if you look at our leaders, are they being driven by their ego or their higher self?
Joe Dermody:Like I just said, most of us don't even realize that our higher self exists, right? We're all trapped behind this mask that we were born wearing and don't realize we're wearing a mask. Yeah. And that's If a
Jeffrey Aylor:our leaders were leading from their higher self, they would be helping people find their higher self.
Joe Dermody:Absolutely. And that's what I was gonna say here too. Right? And when you when you stop to talk with people, just like you were talking about when you travel, and you really stop to talk to them, that love shines through. Right?
Joe Dermody:Because people are people. So even if they're not taking that mask off because they're not realizing they were really wearing a mask, the love still shines through. You stop to talk to people. You realize that they're just people no matter where they are and what they're doing because their true self shines through eventually as they get to know you and you get to know them. So you can see it no matter where you're at.
Joe Dermody:Again, I told you at the very beginning of this that this is an podcast for me because I'm starting to see a lot of this a lot clearer, I I would say, this week, but it's been happening over months. Right? Probably the last two years. But this one right now is just I've written some stuff down in my notebook that's just I I feel is good stuff for me just this morning. So thank you.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, I have to say I've in my travels, one of the most interesting responses I've gotten from people in other countries is that they'll they'll say to me, you're not a typical American. And I kind of take that and I'm thinking, okay, what's that mean? And I think there are people around the world who feel that The United States specifically is is very egotistical. That predominantly we're egotistical as people, and I don't disagree necessarily that that's not true. But it comes across that that's how they're taught who we are.
Jeffrey Aylor:We are we are egotistical. We are selfish, self centered. We're, you know, and and it's interesting because right now we've got a world event happening, Right with the World Cup soccer, which is a universal. It is a universal sport. It's the one universal sport.
Jeffrey Aylor:And they're all here in The United States. And as they come here, many of them are having to go places in The United States that they would not normally go. They're in more of what I call Middle America in different places, and they're learning. Wait a minute. America in general is not what I've been told.
Jeffrey Aylor:That Americans in general and the country in general is actually wonderful. The people are wonderful. People are beautiful and it's there. So there's all the and so I guess my point with that is that. We can have a very superficial opinion and view of people around the world outside The United States.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, they have the same superficial view of us. If we would just get together and talk. In fact, some of them have said, you know what? When we get together by ourselves, we all learn we were. We're pretty great.
Jeffrey Aylor:Our leaders are the ones telling us that we're not. Wait a minute, that should be an moment. Shouldn't it? That should be an moment. That our leadership, and it's not just here in this country, it's in all countries are divisive, and they do that because they control that way.
Jeffrey Aylor:They maintain power. They influence and manipulate that way. This could be a very pivotal point historically.
Sherri Keys:But just one second on that topic. I think that we were just talking about, I think that seeking an understanding of different cultures based off of wanting to gain knowledge and to grow and develop is a different path than seeking knowledge because of change, because of internally not being solid on your own belief system and the lack of understanding based off your ego. I think that they lend themselves to differences in how we approach that full understanding.
Jeffrey Aylor:Okay. Question. How does healthy spiritual what does it look like? What does healthy spiritual curiosity look like?
Purna Devi:There is a term in yoga philosophy that's called Svadyaya. It's a fun word. Right? Svadyaya. Svadyaya is self study.
Purna Devi:It's also study of the scriptures. Right? So there's a and it's one of the main limbs. So to be spiritual means to be curious. It means to be a seeker.
Purna Devi:It means to study the wisdoms of the great masters. Right? Because we're standing on some shoulders of giants. We don't have to reinvent the wheel while also seeking internally questioning. I'm a a Yogi.
Purna Devi:Right? I'm a yogi that they call it a Yogi. I'm in constant self reflection. I'm constantly curious of how I'm showing up, why I'm showing up the way I'm showing up and how it relates to the world around me. So I think that there's a humility in that.
Purna Devi:Again, right? I mentioned it earlier that I've always told my students, if you ever meet someone that wants you to call them a guru or says they have all the answers run as fast as you can in the opposite direction. Right? So I think that there are those of us that become humble through our spiritual walk. Right?
Purna Devi:God will humble us in a way. The divine will humble us to to our own humanity, to our own fallacy, to our ability to not know and to stay open and curious as the humble seeker. For me, that's the path. That's the way. Right?
Purna Devi:And then you get to be like a child new with new eyes all the time without this rigid fixed mindset, right? That's a psychology term, right? Fixed mindset or, you know, do you have this pliable open space within you that allows new ideas to move in and and to be curious about new ways and then have that, you know, constant inner reflection. That for me is is the way.
Joel Aylor:Yeah. Like what you said there when to run from somebody who thinks they have all the answers. I think that's the trap that a lot of Christian Christian religions or churches have come in, you know, have created this idea that I have the answers. You need to come to me for the answers. And then when life does humble you, those answers don't help.
Joel Aylor:All of a sudden, you can't you you can't feel comforted by what you believe in. That's what's, I think, you know, a big problem. You know, when when life has a way of of basically exposing those those questions and and helping you, you know, try to push you into a better understanding. So I think that I think that healthy spiritual curiosity isn't isn't about collecting beliefs. It's about cultivating understanding, finding what fits, taking a little bit from this religion, a little bit from this religion, a little bit from this experience, a little bit from this person who I work with who comes from a different background, all these little things, taking it and and and applying it to your own life.
Joel Aylor:If it if it feels right, follow that path. If it doesn't feel right, stay away from it. There's a reason. That's your inner inner self guiding you. And I think that, you know, we have multiple experience.
Joel Aylor:I I I think about a girl I used to work with who was very much a dogmatic Christian background, and we would have conversations. We would try to have these types of conversations, but she was very much not open minded. She wasn't curious. She had the answers. She believed this way, and I wasn't gonna convince her otherwise regardless of me trying.
Joel Aylor:And I tried. And not not trying to change her, but just trying to have the conversation. You know, what about this? What do you what do you think of this? There wasn't an an innate curiosity in her, so she stayed where she was.
Joel Aylor:And I had to come to a understanding that that that's okay. I still loved her. She's a great woman, but she did not have that curiosity, and it felt like it I I just wanted her to at some point just to be like, alright. Well well, maybe what let's follow that. Let's find out what what it says.
Joel Aylor:Maybe it does make sense, but there was no curiosity there. I think that's just a huge thing with with a healthy curiosity. You can really expand your worldview and understanding of this life, and and it helps. I think stagnating is a is a problem.
Joe Dermody:I think you do it by by having an open mind, listening, and then no judgment. Right? And I'll I'll say it one more time with love. So I think it's basically that simple. You just have to keep your ears open, be a sounding board, and talk with people.
Joe Dermody:And let me let me change that. Communicate with people. Don't just talk with them. Also listen. Because I think that's super important that we don't do enough of.
Joe Dermody:We do a lot of talking. We don't do enough listening. And if we take the time to actually listen and do the full communication, I think that's really how we go about doing this.
Sherri Keys:I'm a button to sign. So I think for me, I mean, curiosity, obviously, is the key. That's the trigger to to, you know, to be able to want the have the desire to gain that knowledge and understanding. But I also think it's exposure as well. I think you have to spend time wanting to expose yourselves to cultures that would different cultures and religions, and that would give you an opportunity to to trigger that curiosity.
Sherri Keys:So if we stay in our own bubble and our own silo, then we're never gonna know anything other than what's inside that that box. So get outside the box and, you know, involve yourself or make yourself, exposed to different experiences and carry that curiosity with you as you're you're engaged in those different experiences.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, one of the one of the things I like to do is use the Socratic method with people of just asking a very pointed question. Most people will at least stop and think, and I can tell pretty quickly if someone is going to be willing to engage or not engage in a conversation. There are a lot of people I know who don't would not enjoy this conversation we're having today. It's either too complex, too deep to them, or it's too woo woo, or it's too know, they don't come up with any any number of reasons why they don't enjoy it, and that's okay.
Joel Aylor:It doesn't fit their identity.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? Yeah, so it's okay. I don't if they don't want to join the conversation, that's fine. I have to be okay with that, And in some cases, can be your your closest people, your family. Oh, yeah, it can be the people closest to you that don't enjoy that.
Jeffrey Aylor:And if you can't give them grace to not, then you're going to end up in all kinds of problems, right? So I think. I think it's important that we and and joke. Thank you for bringing love every time because love is the glue that holds unity together. That's why the two have to go hand in hand.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's why the two seasons are going to fall the way they are here with this podcast. They go hand in hand. And. But again, I can usually tell when someone is curious enough that I can ask them a question and see what the response is. And and if I find that that that they give me a fearful reaction, then I'll stop.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'll stop asking. I won't probe or dig any deeper with them. I think I told this story a couple of episodes ago where I had shared A Course in Miracles, a book with some folks that I know. And it they one person was literally afraid. That this book was evil.
Jeffrey Aylor:And they so I I at that point knew where I was. I understood the level of curiosity they had about learning anything outside of maybe what they, you know, took your point, the Bible to them is the only ones. And then at that point, had to almost say, well, which Bible? Which version? Which translation?
Jeffrey Aylor:Which are you? You know? Because people get even to the point where it's King James.
Joel Aylor:Another point of division.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right. This is another another divisive thing. So anyway, I'm okay that people have a different opinion than I do. And in fact, I learned a lot from them because of their positions. And I think that's another.
Jeffrey Aylor:Thing that we can build on. So this next set of questions is around and porno you touched on this humility. Humility and mystery, you know, one of maybe one of the greatest spiritual gifts is humility. The willingness for us to recognize that the divine is always greater than our own personal understanding. We always have something to learn.
Jeffrey Aylor:We don't have it all figured out. That's why it was really hard for me when I was given this these books. The download of these books. I've always wanted to write a book. But I realized very quickly that when I write something down, it's really hard to change my mind at that point.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'd be revising that book over and over and over because I'm constantly learning something new, and I may even come to a totally different understanding of that that topic. And I hate to pin myself down to one belief or one understanding on something. And but there are some things that don't change. And those are principles. And I think the nine books that make up this series are all principles.
Jeffrey Aylor:They don't change, They're unchanging, and that gives the really solid foundation to build on. So how has embracing mystery affected your spiritual journey? What happens when when your certainty that you had becomes more important than love?
Purna Devi:I'm glad you said the word certainty because I wrote it down to touch on. As we've been talking, I'm like, the one word we haven't said yet is certainty, And the ego loves certainty. And I think about how much effort folks will spend holding to a false reality, holding to a certainty. Right? Because we all know what it's like to have the world, you know, the floor crumble beneath us and everything you thought you knew just gets washed away with the tide.
Purna Devi:And so I think that there is humility in the mystery and again, dissolving. And, you know, we talk about annihilating the ego and I want to add another language to that conversation. I call it befriending the ego. We can't right? I don't wanna take that, like, masculine dominant approach that I need to diminish and dominate my ego.
Purna Devi:Rather, I need to befriend it. It needs to work for me. Right? And it needs to also be in the backseat in the baby carrier file and files and doing doing the work it does and not drive in the car. Spirit and heart needs to be driving the car.
Purna Devi:Humility needs to be driving the car. Certainty can stay in the back baby carrier. Right? It's strapped in and and and, you know, contained a bit. So I think that the idea that there is an ultimate reality and all faith traditions know, the name of God does not encompass the essence of the divine, the essence of God.
Purna Devi:Right? That's why all, you know, all of faith traditions recognize that there is a limitation in even speaking about it. Right? That our third dimensional reality here is so limiting. Our minds are so confining.
Purna Devi:Our egos are so limiting in its way of understanding that even talking about God and the divine, we can never quite capture it.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, there's the principle in Taoism that says the Tao that can be named is not the true Tao.
Purna Devi:Is not the Tao. Exactly that. And so really, you know, I think dissolving the relationship with certainty, allowing me to be small in this vast divine mystery is it makes us feel powerless until we recognize that there's a co creation with the mystery, that I am a part of it. And even, you know, Albert Einstein, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention mention him in this conversation because he was a physicist. He was a scientist.
Purna Devi:Right? And he said that a human being is part of the whole. He experiences himself as something separate from the rest. And that is the great optical delusion of consciousness. So we are part of the mystery.
Purna Devi:Right? We are. We are part of the whole. And, also, we're a drop in the ocean. Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:I love the the principles that talk about how we are all individual expressions of the one. Yeah, we are God expressing himself through us individually and experience. He's experiencing life through us individually. Every experience is valuable. Every experience is meaningful.
Jeffrey Aylor:And that that principle I think is another one that is just it's fundamental across all these traditions. And it's beautiful because then it it wipes away the ability for me to say you I'm right and you're wrong. I think one of the greatest things we have as an ego is we have the absolute desire to be right. You know as well as I do that the great deal of suffering, a great deal of anxiety, a great deal of depression, a great deal is whenever we think we're right, and we're being confronted in that, and and we have to be right at all cost. It cost us peace.
Jeffrey Aylor:It cost us joy because being right is more important, And that being humble enough to say, you know. If I'm right, great. If I'm not. Great.
Joel Aylor:I feel attacked.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, you should. You should have. I'm looking right at you as I say these things.
Joel Aylor:No. But you're right. That's exactly that that was the source of some of my issues, especially when I was younger, is the you know, because I've been blessed with a lot of intelligence and and a lot of a a way of understanding things quickly, I felt like I knew things. And so I got frustrated when people didn't understand it or I felt like I was right and they were wrong, I would create the problem. And it caused me suffering.
Joel Aylor:Didn't cause them suffering. Well, they probably didn't care for me, but they but I I suffered because I I wanted them to understand. But as I've gotten older, I think I think the the mystery feels more like an invitation than it does having to be a problem that I have to solve to find the answer to it because I don't think I'm ever gonna find the answer to it. I think that's the point. It's not it's not something that needs to be we find it over and over again in different ways.
Joel Aylor:We don't ever get all of the answers all at once. All of a sudden, we're just like, yeah. I got it all. I know everything now because there's it's there's no such thing as necessarily in this, like, least in this existence knowing everything. And I think I've become more interested in I should say I've become less interested in possessing certainty and more interested in becoming transformed by it because it doesn't do any good to just say you're wrong and I'm right.
Joel Aylor:It just like I said, it just causes suffering.
Jeffrey Aylor:There was a conversation I was involved in here a few weeks ago where someone said, are you 1000% sure that and I and they weren't even talking to me and I said no, no, nothing is sure. Nothing. I cannot guarantee anything. And you can't guarantee anything. As soon as I guarantee something for you, I guarantee we're going to be at an impasse and we're gonna have a problem.
Jeffrey Aylor:I can't. No, I cannot guarantee anything. No, don't don't even put me in that position of certainty. I can't give you certainty. So but the ego wants it.
Jeffrey Aylor:The ego absolutely wants it.
Purna Devi:It operates on it, and it operates on what has been. The mystery allows us a free open space to what can be. The ego is limited and knows only what has been.
Joel Aylor:That's a threat because it's it's the unknown. It does not like the unknown.
Purna Devi:Absolutely not.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's that's where depression comes from. Depression is lingering in the past, right? The past and and thinking. That. It's it's it that it's better.
Jeffrey Aylor:First of all, everybody who thinks the past was better. And well, know, back in the good old days. Well, wait a minute. What's wrong with today? I think today is pretty great.
Joel Aylor:And they wrap up in the identity of the past.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah. And they get depressed as a result of that. Alright, so let's move on to this next topic, which I think is is building on what we've already chatted about, and that is how do we have unity without forcing or requiring uniformity? Unity does not ask us to erase difference. It invites us to see others' humanity before we put labels and things on it.
Jeffrey Aylor:I think of a tapestry. What makes a tapestry beautiful? Is it that it's all the same color? That it's all the same type of thread? That it's all the no.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's the difference. It's it's the beauty and the complexity of the differences that bring together this massively beautiful picture. So what does unity without uniformity look like, and how can communities of different faiths become partners rather than competitors?
Purna Devi:I've said on many of these conversations we've had, the word yoga means union, right, to unify, to yoke together. And we've talked about how the ego, right, creates these identities of self. And then we've talked about the part of us, the shared humanity that is beyond the ego's limitations and the certainties of identity and the small self and the superficial self. So I think unity without uniformity is the remembrance of the soul self within us all beyond the perceived differences. And can we imagine a world where, you know, faith traditions came together, different folks came together.
Purna Devi:Right? We're we're in such a divisive time. Right? It's us versus them and pick a topic. And I have to believe and lean into the mystery of belief that there is a shared humanity.
Purna Devi:Right? The whole world is one. We are literally one organism. And imagine if the parts of the organism stopped fighting one another, right? Because I look this way and you look that way, or we're not exactly the same as our egos identify.
Purna Devi:And we begin to remember the sameness, right, that really is the heart of spirit and soul and consciousness. Just what we could accomplish. You know? For me, it gives me hope in conversations like this and in the work that I do and the work that a lot of us are doing, right, in our own self healing journeys and our awakening journeys and then how we hold space for others to do the same thing to awaken beyond that conditioned difference, right, in the ego's identity, I think, is integral. Right?
Purna Devi:We can we can be different. Right? Unity is not sameness. We can be different and also recognize the sameness that does exist, right, is the longing to love, is the longing to be seen, to be understood, to be connected. Those that's a shared humanity of spirit.
Joel Aylor:Yeah. Unity doesn't doesn't erase difference. In fact, it's it's an invitation to appreciate the differences in each in each other. I I think of the example of, like, an orchestra. So an orchestra is made up of different instruments.
Joel Aylor:From the trumpet's not the same as a as a violin. But when you bring them together into one unit, an orchestra, and they work together, you create harmony. You create something bigger and beautiful more beautiful than the individual ones together. And I think that's it. You're not trying to change the violin into a trumpet.
Joel Aylor:You're appreciating the violin for what they bring, the trumpet for what it brings, the the drums for what they altogether, the unity together creates harmony. I think that's a a good way
Jeffrey Aylor:of looking at it. I love that example, and I use that when I'm teaching in business about how to get an organization to function and flow on a common in a common direction. Because if you also take those, if you've been to a concert, and you hear them all tuning at the beginning, and warming up individually, it is chaos. It's chaos. In fact, it's almost painful.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, guess what? I think that's the condition our world is in right now. We sound like an orchestra where every instrument wants to play its own way and do its own thing, and it's all and we're not on that common sheet of music. When the conductor is able to bring them all together and they all start. It's amazing the transformation that those and and again the harmony, the beauty, those terms, all those terms that you're using in music apply perfectly.
Jeffrey Aylor:To this conversation, and it is a it is a wonderful example of how our our senses can grasp the spiritual principles we're trying to teach, which are hard to get, right, of unity. But an orchestra is a perfect any any music band or group that if they play individually and they do and and one wants to stick out more than the other versus blending, right? Which is another issue we, you know, it is just a really, really great analogy. I think whether it's some of what we're trying to talk about.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. And the problem is is that we're all yelling. We're all the instruments. We're all yelling and screaming to the source. We've just forgotten how to listen to our conductor.
Joe Dermody:Right? And we all need to just slow down and listen, which goes into mine here. You know, Sherry stated that, you know, we we all need to experience other cultures, and I think that's fantastic. And by doing that, we get to see things from other sides. Right?
Joe Dermody:And I think that's super important. By experiencing things from different sides, it allows us to see different perspectives. And I think that we all should try to do that more as often as we can. So by doing that, it allows us to do that. We have to communicate with the people.
Joe Dermody:So we talk to them, we listen. That allows us to be able to talk with people and see things from their perspective.
Sherri Keys:Yeah. I would think that, that in doing that, we would find that we all have more in common than we think we do. Absolutely. You know, across all and I would hope that that common thread is the love that we have for each other.
Jeffrey Aylor:So you can you can tell when musicians love music, first of all, when they love working with other people to create something greater than they can themselves individually. That's where the sum of the parts is greater. The whole is greater. Right? It's exponential.
Jeffrey Aylor:The beauty and the value that is gained synergistic. It's synergistic Correctly. That's a great term. Which is why I'm really glad you brought that analogy up because now I can't get it out of my mind because it's just it's a beautiful picture of each individual instrument is so unique in and of itself, but it's contributing to the collective, the whole, and it's not trying to overpower another. It's listening, trying to stay in balance.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's it's it's it's playing its part because each one has a part, and there's a time where some need to stick out, and there maybe they do have a solo, and it's okay because that's its purpose at that time is to is to stick out in and among the the instruments for as a part of that beautiful piece of music, but then it will fade back into the background when it's time and something else will come up. And I watched the conductor. Okay. Well, let's take that analogy. Who's the conductor?
Jeffrey Aylor:And this discussion that we're having, who is the great conductor? Is it us? No, we're the instruments. The source. The one light.
Jeffrey Aylor:Is the great conductor? My opinion. My opinion. So all of this is great. I love having these conversations.
Jeffrey Aylor:But if we can't really turn this into something practical, that we're all able to live, then how does it really value? How did we get any value out of the conversation? Well, if every tradition encourages us towards greater love, how do we begin living that today? You know what gives you hope? For the few for the an interfaith future, right of love and and beauty and understanding across all these traditions.
Purna Devi:I think that conversations like this give me hope, like I said. I think seeing more people question the indoctrinated dogmas that they've been living under. Right? I've worked with so many folks over the fifteen years of doing this work that have deconstructed their old belief systems that they inherited and they began to question, right? So I think what gives me hope is individual questioning and then recognizing the collective need, right?
Purna Devi:So doing our own individual work. And I brought this example last time, right? That there's a threefold path to this. One is my sadhana, my personal practice, my personal relationship with the divine, my personal curiosity and self study and self reflection. Then is my community, my sangha.
Purna Devi:Right? You all are a part of my community that help me question and expand my curiosity and give me space to be curious and unique and unified at the same time. And then the third path is service, right? Service to others. So how, you know, how can I live this?
Purna Devi:It would be those three ways, right? First is my own relationship, then my community, and then how do I serve? How do I serve in that loving humanistic way where we can continue to take care of one another within our differences?
Joel Aylor:Yeah. That's well said. I think that the world changes less through winning religious arguments than if we were just to embody compassion and love. I think the desire to be right, we have to let go of that and and just embrace the humanity of of all things. And I think that's where things change, and that can be boiled down to what we've been talking about, and that's just stay curious and not judgmental.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. I think I agree with with all of that as well. Learn to keep your mind open. Learn to listen. Continue to love.
Joe Dermody:And what give what else gives me hope is, you know, a lot of the videos, like you said before, Jeff, that we're seeing right now online, the people that are that are traveling right now and the the the happy videos that we're seeing now taking over versus the the videos showing the hate are fantastic to watch, and they are gaining so much momentum and going viral right now, which are fun to see. So I think that's a a a big a big win right now. So definitely fun for me to be watching. So
Sherri Keys:I mean, I guess what gives me hope is that understanding that, you know, there's there's purpose and history repeats itself. You know, it's journey, and that that journey starts within. And the more that we look inside ourselves and understand our purpose and, and, and share that and want to be involved and expand our footprint and culture awareness and love and religion and diversity. I think that we'll get, we'll get through it. I I think that, again, we all have a purpose.
Sherri Keys:We go through things in life because there is something bigger that we have to do. Somebody's life we have to touch, someone we have to bring in, someone we have to hug. I'm a big hugger. And I I think that all those experiences gives gives me hope.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, for me, what gives me great hope is I believe that the one source, the one light is truly in control. I think the universe loves us, loves all of us unconditionally, and I'm confident at this point that we are as a world, as an earth specifically, we are at a point of great transition, And I think what's happening right now is the conductor is tapping its wand on the podium to get our attention and to try to bring us together at a point where And I think what we're seeing right now is that we'll see the calming of the individuality and the and there'll be a period of quiet, and then all of a sudden the conductor is going to bring us all together in beautiful music. That's my vision. That's my hope that we're a part of that. We're a part of that experience in some way, but my hope and my faith is not is in is in that loving source.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's unchanging, and and I'd rather build on that foundation than any other foundation. It doesn't change. It's stable. It's consistent. It's perfect.
Jeffrey Aylor:So with that, as we bring this conversation to a close, I think it's important that we realize unity isn't found in everyone believing the same thing. Perhaps it's found in recognizing that there is a common longing. That there's the same hope in each person that there's the same sacred energy and spark in people that it exists in every every single heart. Different language, different rituals, different stories, but still one source, one light. So Porta, Joel, Joe, Sherry, thank you so much again.
Jeffrey Aylor:Every conversation gets better. Every conversation to me is is beautiful. It's it's rich. I love your compassion. I love your humility.
Jeffrey Aylor:I love the the sense of wonder that you have and learning. So I hope that as you listen to this podcast that those of you can recognize this light, right? Recognize that those who are walking on a different path are just walking in a different way than you are toward a common direction. So because every act of genuine love brings a little bit more heaven to earth. So with that, let the space between continue.
Jeffrey Aylor:As we come to a close, remember that this journey continues in many expressions. This podcast is part of a family of partner podcasts. Awakening heaven on earth. The space between heaven and earth and living heaven on earth are three companion podcasts exploring spiritual awakening from complementary perspectives. Awakening heaven on earth offers the core teachings and mystical reflections on unity, love, and conscious living.
Jeffrey Aylor:The space between creates room for dialogue, reflection, and lived conversation around those teachings. Living heaven on earth focuses on basic spiritual practices that help embody these insights in daily life. Together, they form a unified journey of understanding, experience, and integration, inviting listeners to remember their connection with the divine, with one another, and with the living world. You can find all of them available on the same podcast streaming platforms wherever you listen. And if music helps carry these teachings deeper into the heart.
Jeffrey Aylor:The Unity. Awakening Heaven on Earth album is available on all major music streaming services as a musical companion to this journey. Wherever you engage, through listening, reflection, conversation, or music. May it gently remind you you are not separate. You belong to the one life and heaven is already unfolding within you.
Jeffrey Aylor:Until next time. Walk gently, love deeply, and embody heaven on earth.