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Welcome to I’m Not Even Supposed to Be Here Today, a conversational, culture-savvy podcast for folks trying to make sense of a world that has gone sideways. We’re here to unpack the issues that boggle our minds, all rooted in a little history, a little culture, a little humor, a little group therapy, and a little humility.
Chris Bevolo (00:00)
shall I say we're living in a timeline where it seems like everyone has trauma, everyone else is a narcissist. And at least that's according to like literally anyone you talk to or anyone that's like on the internet.
Chris 1 (00:21)
hello. Welcome everybody to episode 12 of I'm not even supposed to be here today. Our conversational cultural savvy podcast for folks trying to make sense of a world that has gone sideways. We're here to unpack the issues that buckle our minds all rooted in history, culture, humor, group therapy, and humility. I cut out the little, Dez, and all that. I figured today it's not just a little group therapy, it's actual group therapy. So no littles today.
I am Chris Beveleaux, owner of Barring287, an organization fighting the good fight to make the world a better place for all. And the sponsor of this show, I am joined by my co-host, Dez, who is a social impact comm strategist by day and who spends her nights remixing history to make sense of the present. Hello, Dez.
Chris Bevolo (01:11)
Welcome to the Spring Frequanox.
Coreen 1 (01:14)
You
Chris 1 (01:15)
I'm not sure what that means. Do you need to explain that or is it just make that up?
Chris Bevolo (01:17)
I don't know.
I feel like I've heard it before, it's spring equinox. I don't know, I always call it frequent-ox, but that might just be like a queer thing or something. don't know.
Chris 1 (01:34)
Maybe it is. Maybe, I don't know. I've never heard Freakonox before. Is it actually Equinox today? No, it's not even today. Yeah, okay, so it's the remnants. It is springy. ⁓ It is springy, that is true. And it's unusually springy here, so that's great. We will take it. And I can't remember where you are. Are you still in Chicago?
Chris Bevolo (01:42)
No, it was a couple days ago, but it's officially spring now.
Still in Chicago in the last two weeks.
Chris 1 (02:04)
Okay, okay. Well, maybe we'll talk more about that because we have a guest with us. We have the esteemed Dr. Kareen Haim, who I'm gonna introduce you first and then I'm gonna say hi and you can say hi back. about that? Because we're gonna talk about pop psychology today. I can't wait. But first, let's talk about Kareen, who's joining us, licensed marriage and family therapist and professor of marriage and family therapy.
Coreen 1 (02:24)
it.
Chris 1 (02:31)
teaching therapists to be therapists in graduate and doctorate programs. ⁓ So all the therapy stuff there in one sentence. We're really thrilled to have you. ⁓ As you know from listening to our podcast, because I'm sure you listen to every single episode, I think that's required. Everyone, you know how much we rely, Des and I, on you and my wife, Tanya, who's also a therapist, who can't be with us today, but.
Coreen 1 (02:48)
everyone.
Chris 1 (02:59)
Yes, we rely on you quite a bit and we often reference therapy and therapy adjacent issues. And that is for the good and for the bad, I would think maybe you might think, ⁓ Tanya might think that as well. I will try not to speak for Tanya in this. It can be very difficult for me not to do that. But thankfully you're here so you can provide all the expertise we need. Welcome. It's great to have you.
Coreen 1 (03:24)
Thank you so much.
It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Chris 1 (03:29)
You're our second official guest. ⁓ You're in the pantheon. You're like, your face will be chiseled on Mount, I'm not even supposed to be here today, whatever that looks like. Yeah. don't know if it is. Des, do you think it's an honor?
Coreen 1 (03:31)
Yeah.
Fantastic. It's an honor.
Yeah.
Chris Bevolo (03:47)
I mean, I always think it's an honor to be in the presence of Corrine, so biased.
Chris 1 (03:53)
⁓ wow. Okay. Okay, that's fair. There you go. There you go. So we wanted to talk about pop psychology and we thought a great way to get into that is to talk about Netflix dating shows, which are hot right now. Now I'm just gonna set this up by saying, I don't watch.
Coreen 1 (03:56)
a little bit about our relationship.
Chris 1 (04:19)
any of the Netflix dating shows and I don't really watch any of the reality shows with intention, but my wife consumes them, consumes them. And so when we're together, I often get drawn in and suddenly I have opinions on what's happening. But I don't think, well, I'll hear what you guys are watching. And I'm not sure we're watching any of what you're watching. What are you watching? What are the hot Netflix dating shows?
Chris Bevolo (04:42)
Well, currently we're watching the Age of Attraction on Netflix, which is all about the age gap relationships. I think it's jumping on the age gap bubble bandwagon. We've seen a number of movies that have come out that have been around this topic, like Baby Girl. And I think there was like another recent one with like Jessica Chastain or somebody like that. But I too am not a reality TV watcher.
Coreen 1 (04:47)
Hehehe
Chris Bevolo (05:09)
But I actually got into watching these with Corrine, what I guess like three years ago when the first one we were watching was Queer Ultimatum. But Corrine, are you an avid watcher of this before Queer Ultimatum?
Coreen 1 (05:24)
No, no, as a matter of fact, I was I think the last reality show I saw before that one might have been like Anna Nicole in 19 or but I think I would say the age of attraction and queer ultimatum really brought me in because of the subject matter of both of those things are of interest to me. And I think that those have been both of those things have been ignored in media for so long and certainly from mainstream media that it brought me in. But once you start watching those shows, you are like you said, Chris, you are locked in.
once you start getting to know the characters. The people, mean, characters people.
Chris 1 (05:59)
Or even when you don't, because what I find myself doing, and this is a common husband meme, is because I see this on TikTok where the wife will film the husband being like, why do you watch these shows? You know, like, these are just stupid.
And then they'll like cut to like five minutes later and the husband's just sitting on the edge of the couch going like, well, that's just stupid. Why would he do that? Like that's it. So that's what I will do is I'll be working and then I'll hear something and then I'll just be like, well that guy's clearly in the wrong. And I won't know who these people are. I don't even know the premise of this show. Cause there are shows we're watching now that I think we identified as that it's million dollar listings. We think that's the show that.
Chris Bevolo (06:40)
the
Chris 1 (06:42)
we happen to have on in our house, but I don't know which one. Like, I don't know if it's LA. I think it's LA just from the vibe of the show. Like it's not New York. I think it's LA. And I just find that even fascinating because there's like two, they're all hot real estate people and they're sitting at a table and they're negotiating one selling the house and one's trying to buy the house. And they're in the same real estate agency and they're
Chris Bevolo (06:44)
It's the OG one. I don't know. There's so many.
Coreen 1 (06:48)
Yeah.
.
Chris 1 (07:11)
talking to each other while they're talking to their clients. I'm like, is this legal? Tanya's like, that's the premise, the whole premise of this show. And I'm like, well, it seems really weird that they're trying to help each other. And like, it's more about them winning the deal than helping their clients. I don't know. It seems like a conflict of interest, but what do I know?
Chris Bevolo (07:29)
Isn't that
a metaphor for what we're living through? But I digress. So conflict of interest. Can't wait for that documentary. So we're watching these series and what's been interesting to me is they're definitely a far cry from the trash dating series of yesteryear. So for me, my original reality series of these types were from MTV and it was singled out.
Chris 1 (07:37)
of interest.
Chris Bevolo (07:58)
And it was a little show called Next. And if you go back, was watching something, it was like online, they were just showing clips of just some, the way people were like, that guy, like they would just cut down the person and they're like, Next. And it was like always like the worst thing. Like that kind of stuff would not fly today. ⁓ But then we cut to these shows. It started with Queer Ultimate and where I noticed that, especially with the second season, I don't know, Karine, maybe you picked up on this too.
Coreen 1 (08:10)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Bevolo (08:25)
but like they were just like, were using so
many like just therapy terms and like just, it's so wild to just like watch. Anyways, I don't know. Is that something you picked up on, Karine, where it just feels like they're so educated on these things or so they think and they're talking about it and they're like navigating or watching these like relationships like grow infinitely like over like two days and insanity. But I don't know, Karine, what have you kind of picked up on these shows?
Coreen 1 (08:54)
Yeah, I think the quote unquote therapy speak is becoming more popular in general. But I also feel like that I can tell who's been to therapy on the shows and who hasn't, by the way they're talking about it, because legitimately, you do pick up language from your therapist, you do. And I'm a couples therapist as well, right? So you do pick up that language, you do use it with your partner, particularly when you're in couples therapy.
But the fact remains that that language, ⁓ if they're in therapy, is very specific to their situation, to their individual situations. ⁓ So I see it a lot on social media all the time, kind of generalized statements that supposedly work for everybody. So I definitely saw this on Queer Ultimatum as well as Age of, ⁓ what is it? of Attraction. Yeah, I've seen it on both of those, but I to be honest, I see it everywhere.
Chris Bevolo (09:43)
Age of Attraction
Coreen 1 (09:49)
⁓ And I can kind of tell even in my friendship groups, I can see people talking differently, even though at this point, a lot of my friends are therapists. But yeah, I see it everywhere. I see it on all kinds of shows. So it's really common now. It's become having those ways of speaking has become much more common and much more promoted than ever before.
Chris Bevolo (10:12)
And Chris, I don't know if you kind of picked up on this, in, you know, kind of our, this was especially during or after COVID, during COVID, what have you, ⁓ when we're having more of these engaged conversations with our coworkers and we kind of let our guard down, was a little, it was wild times there for a while, but people were being way more vocal about their journey with their therapists or what have you, or just even these topics coming up or like in the workplace. ⁓ Is that something you like?
kind of experience, I know you were more in like leadership level, you may not have been in the minutia of it with us, but just curious what you've been seeing.
Chris 1 (10:50)
I mean, I would say there's two things that I've seen. One is that people talk about going to therapy like it's normal. And not that it's never not been normal, but it used to be something people did not talk about. They were like, ooh, that's something you keep to yourself, right?
So now it's just like, you know, like I can take my car and to get the oil change and I'm going to my therapist and people don't blink an eye. Not everybody, clearly. That's what we watched this weekend was the Manosphere. So I'm assuming those folks don't think that way. But most of the people I run into are all over that. The other thing I will say is, I'm assuming, we're gonna probably talk about this, but I'm assuming what, Kareen, you're talking about that you did a really good job of framing in a...
Coreen 1 (11:21)
You
Chris 1 (11:36)
Broadway is the use of the terms gaslighting and narcissist have got to be again, like I'm going get my oil changed and the guy who changed my oil is a narcissist or stop gaslighting me that I don't need the premium fuel. Like people are using those phrases ⁓ and not always in a way that therapists would agree with. It's probably a fair way to say like, that's not really how you use those. ⁓ So those are the things I've noticed.
Coreen 1 (11:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chris 1 (12:05)
I also will just say, I promise I would not speak for Tanya on therapy. But Karine, I just have to ask you before we get into our topics, are you in the same place as Tanya that when she watches any programming, usually not reality TV, so the TV shows, ⁓ movies where there is a therapist or there's therapy as part of the plot, and as soon as it,
Coreen 1 (12:09)
There we go, yeah.
Chris Bevolo (12:34)
Thank
Chris 1 (12:36)
deviates 1 % from what a normal therapist would do. She's out. She's out. She's just like, I can't watch this anymore. Is that a thing? Okay.
Coreen 1 (12:43)
Yes. ⁓ Yeah, I have the exact same
reaction. I think that first of all, have to kind of, we don't talk about it too much. We can talk about it in our homes for a variety of reasons because people don't actually know what therapists do in the room. Not exactly. It takes a long time to become a therapist, but I have the same reaction. I think I had it last this past week. ⁓
Desiree, you had mentioned something. It was a couple's therapist show, a new one. And I didn't even see it before I was able to say, no, I'm not seeing that. I'm not watching
Chris Bevolo (13:12)
Okay.
Coreen 1 (13:18)
it. Every once in a while I do. And I'm always irritated or frustrated by what I'm seeing. And the deviation happened so quickly. It happened so quickly. It happens from the minute they started. it's hard to reality shows are reality shows. But and other shows are still scripted, right?
So whatever I see is already an annoyance and a frustration. ⁓ And not something that necessarily I said we talk about in the general public, but certainly I have the exact same reaction as your wife. Exact same reaction. It's hard to watch. Yeah, it's very, very hard to watch.
Chris 1 (13:54)
Okay, well that's good to know. It's good to know.
The two things that I would say ⁓ from my memory are in treatment, which was on HBO, ⁓ Gabriel Byrne was the therapist. She loved that because she felt like that was an actual treated therapy the right way. And she was able to watch Shrinking, even though that is like, she just like, okay, I can let go of this is not anything like what therapy should be because I can't remember what he did.
Like he took in one of his patients, he did all this kind of crazy stuff. Yeah. I don't know if you remember in treatment. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm done talking to Tanya. I know you're listening and she's probably like, shut up already. Like I'm done. I will have her on the show at some point. She can talk for herself, but.
Coreen 1 (14:27)
Whoa. I did watch that one as well.
Chris Bevolo (14:41)
So
yeah, let's go ahead and jump into our main topic. And so essentially the topic is, as you've already heard and Glean is that it's pop psychology or shall I say we're living in a timeline where it seems like everyone has trauma, everyone else is a narcissist. And at least that's according to like literally anyone you talk to or anyone that's like on the internet. ⁓ And so I wanted to just kind of cut through that and understand like, Karine, you are an actual licensed therapist.
And I think you've already shared a little bit of your take on this, but would appreciate just you as we're seeing, as we've talked about, like it's showing up in TV shows, reality shows, the internet, social media, what have you. You know, what's kind of your take as a licensed therapist around all of this?
Coreen 1 (15:27)
Well, I think there's pros and cons is the issue to both of them. think that you're right, Chris, about stigma being lowered ⁓ as an overarching concept. think stigma has been lowered. But when we, like you said, when we get to certain groups, that's not the case at all. But overarching, people are starting to recognize in a good way that therapy can be for anyone and that we don't actually give advice. We're not telling people what to do. And so those pieces are good. It's nice to get some of the language.
Out in the public, it's nice to educate the public on things like that. The issue that I have with it and that a lot of therapists have is that it simplifies the process of any kind of healing or changes that people really want to make. Because a lot of these memes that pop up that tell you certain things about yourself, you're going to want to believe them and you're also going to want them to apply to you. ⁓ Just like any good psychic would do who's not necessarily a psychic, right? A psychic who's in business. ⁓
who knows what the next thing is to say, because people are very similar in a lot of ways, but they still have an event diagram, their own individual journey. So what I see a lot of pop psychology and a lot of these problems, and I think you both use the narcissism as an example. Narcissism is a really interesting one because it is what they call a personality disorder. And for those of you who can't see, did put that in quotes. ⁓ And you have to meet a certain level of criteria.
And so what we don't want to do is diagnose the difference. But if when there's a certain level of criteria, then we say, okay, this person is falling into these categories and it's not to label somebody. As a matter of fact, it's just a categorization so that we can have conversations about it, use the same language, and we can actually research and find some direction for people who actually are coming into us who want help. We're not forcing this as much as some people may think. ⁓
So when people are talking about it at Nausium, what I've noticed is that a lot of it's just incorrect, misunderstood, and people don't go further with it. And nothing applies to everyone. Nothing applies to everyone. And we're looking to be validated. People have heard the word confirmation bias since social media has been out more than ever before, which is one of the many, many unbelievable amount of research terms when you get into statistics. So I...
think that it can be very problematic. ⁓ I also think that one of the big problems is self-diagnosis. So I don't think that we're not even allowed to diagnose ourselves. And when I say allowed, I don't mean that there's a big therapy diagnosis, God in the sky, slapping our hands if we think something. But diagnosing ourselves comes with a lot of preconceived notions and bias. And our job as therapists is not to be free of bias.
but to be able to understand certain biases, implicit bias that we may have as human beings and bring them to the table so that we understand exactly what we're managing as we work with clients on an individual or a couple's level. But if it was as simple as general answers for everybody, which is also in some self-help books, then therapy wouldn't be doing as well as it is right now. And that is a general overarching feeling about it.
But I do think it can be problematic in that way and keep people away from therapy when they feel that they are the ones who are always victimized by narcissists. ⁓ And like Desiree said, if there's one or two qualities, just because you feel as person as egotistical, that doesn't make them a narcissist. It makes them egotistical. So that's just one of many, many, many problems with some of these things that we've seen.
And additionally, trauma is one of those catchphrase words as well. ⁓ And with the self-diagnosis, I see people talking about, for example, something like dissociative identity disorder, which used to be called multiple personality disorder. ⁓ It's nothing like you've seen going as far back as civil to a little bit further, a little more recent, the United States of terror. That's not how it shows up. And we have young people saying,
Chris 1 (19:11)
Okay.
Coreen 1 (19:35)
I'm going to bring my personality forward now. It's a truly dissociative state. So you don't actually remember if there's another personality coming forward or not. And it's pretty clear through conversation if that's the case or not. So those are, I guess, a bunch of different ways to look at it because it's not all bad. And I want to make that clear too, that there are some of these pieces that people can get and they can hear from others that can be very helpful and help them look at things a different way. But it won't take you all the way there.
Chris Bevolo (20:06)
So you.
Chris 1 (20:07)
That's super helpful. I just had an idea pop in my mind. Go ahead, Desiree. I wanna hear from you because I have an idea to share. I'm curious.
Chris Bevolo (20:15)
No, I was just, I was going
to go to you. was, I saw you taking notes. I was like, he's got things to, to bring up.
Chris 1 (20:23)
Taking notes. Yes, I'm taking notes. it's interesting. makes me, so where I probably am exposed most to pop psychology is TikTok. I don't spend a ton of time on social media and my algorithms on social media where I do spend time are mainly political news, sports. It doesn't get into that or I don't see it. But boy, do I see it on TikTok. And it's not that often, but
What occurs to me, Corrine, is, and is it okay to call you Corrine, Dr. Haim, Corrine, which do you prefer? Okay. Okay. Is, it reminds me of when medical doctors who, I don't follow very many people on TikTok, but because I watch their videos, they just keep coming into my algorithm, stitch a video with somebody who's like, hey, what you need to do.
Coreen 1 (20:57)
Yeah, Corinne is fine. pretty comfortable with Corinne, yes.
Hmm.
Chris 1 (21:20)
is take ant eggs and pour them in your ear and that will clear up your hearing. And then here comes an actual medical doctor saying, time out, no, don't put ants or ant eggs in your ears, this is not good idea. ⁓ Does anybody, because that would be something I could see you doing, is being the actual expert on therapy. No, not that part. Hey, to each their own.
Coreen 1 (21:43)
What did I say? You got in my ear? No, I'm just kidding.
Chris 1 (21:49)
You know, like if people wanna have ants in their ears, God bless them. But an actual therapy expert who takes these pop psychology, cause there's so many, right? And I have age bias against 20 somethings, right? So there's nothing worse to me than a life coach is 22 and you're like, how can you be a life coach? You're 22 and they're giving all this advice, but that seems to be a lot of where this sits, the influencer generation.
⁓ and having somebody saying like, hey, this is how you deal with a narcissist, right? You punch them in the face and then you move to a different state and they just give terrible advice or whatever and then have an actual expert come and say, actually no time out, let's talk about this the way. So that's my idea for you. You can take that and decide whether you wanna go with it, but it would be nice. ⁓
because there probably are really smart therapists out there giving advice on TikTok or social media. But if you don't know, you don't know. And how do you know that somebody is, unless they're, you know, if they're 22, I know. But if they're 40 something and they can be experienced, don't know. And people lie about their credentials all the time. yeah, I don't know if you've seen that or.
Coreen 1 (23:08)
Well,
yeah, I've seen that actually a lot. And if you have a licensed therapist on there with credential, they will always list their credentials. They will always give a disclaimer that everything that they do is not a substitution for licensed therapy. They will explain those things. Additionally, it's funny you say that about age because I'm kind of working on that myself as far as younger people and recognizing that.
⁓ Life coaching, for example, is, and I think this is something important for people to know, it's nothing like therapy. ⁓ There's a smaller certification process you can go through anywhere from three months to a year. And these certification organizations have just popped up and said, I'm a certification organization. It doesn't have a lot of credence, but it might 10 years from now, I don't know. But what I do know is because people forget that certifications are actually businesses that are looking for their bottom line.
where licensures are not those. Licensures are given by the state. ⁓ So it's not necessarily about making money. Now I digress on that because that's not always the case, but it may not always be the bottom line. So that being said, I think that what we're looking at is life coaching. And I think that no matter what age the therapist is, they can bring a lot to the table because again, we really don't give it.
We are trying to empower our clients by kind of going on a journey with them and helping them recognize more about themselves, their patterns, who they are, what they really want, how to live authentically if possible, at what level can they live authentically. And of course, we're there to actually be there with them on this journey. It's much more complex process than one might think. So there are a lot of people out there that will deem themselves mental health experts or ⁓
a life coach who has had this experience and even life coaching somebody may have a very specific it could be 70 and they may yes that experience means a lot but it also may not apply to everybody it's still a category and a sample size of one and i think that it's very difficult to tell somebody ⁓ because there are licensed therapists out there who do great job on social media on instagram and tiktok but the large majority are not
⁓ And like you said, it's very hard to ascertain which is which from the outside.
Chris Bevolo (25:33)
Can you give a name of some of the ones that are actually good? Like I know you've said, you've shared like therapy Jeff with me, right? ⁓ What makes him actually a good person to follow and like who are some others? And it almost kind of given us indicators of like who not to follow or who not to listen to.
Coreen 1 (25:38)
Yeah.
Right, therapy Jeff is one of my favorites because he brings in a lot of himself and his own life into these pieces that he can tell people. And what he can do is he can give overarching generalizations, but also explains that they may not fit for everybody. So it's more what's happening with therapy Jeff is more of a, an education into some of the knowledge that we have. And for a therapist, there's knowledge, awareness, skills, and self-development.
all of those things go into becoming a licensed therapist. But knowledge is the baseline ⁓ of our beginning. That's the beginning of us learning what we do in therapy. Another one is called, ⁓ actually a former student, an intern of mine, but was way past that at this point, is called That Therapist Girl. ⁓ Her name is Priscilla and she is absolutely fantastic. She brings in a lot of humor and she's really good for therapists to watch too, because we're human beings and we have ⁓
feelings and responses to our clients that we may talk about ⁓ without identifying information with other therapists. And so she is really fantastic as well. And then there's one, ⁓ I think it's Nicole, I don't know if I'm spelling her name right, but it's like A-R-N-T-Z or something along the arts, I think is her name. And she's fantastic. ⁓ And she includes art into what she's doing and the messages she's putting across. so,
we find ourselves having to unteach constantly ⁓ what's out there and recognize that not anything is not going to apply to everybody, but that there are certain things around human nature that we can say, hey, these are some things that generally can apply to most people where there's a whole bunch of things that don't. But I think being able to find that difference ⁓ comes with our experience. And so when the person isn't experienced or isn't ⁓ trained in these kinds of things, and I don't just mean finishing your master's program, I mean,
The 3000 hours that comes after that, the ⁓ year that comes before that where you're seeing clients for the first time, all of it together, the incredible work we do to have the person find their own inner journey through therapeutic training is very, very different than a person saying these things help me, therefore I'm an expert in humans and human behavior and emotions. Does that kind of answer that question a little bit?
Chris Bevolo (28:10)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm curious, you had mentioned something about the idea of, know, maybe some people think like therapy is like, they give advice. Like you said, like it's not about giving advice. It's about empowering the person to essentially kind of get there. So I'm curious, you know, you're a therapist yourself, you teach other budding therapists, you know, what are some of the things that kind of go into becoming a therapist and what inspired you to become one?
Coreen 1 (28:24)
know.
Um, well, I'll start with what inspired me. Um, I, I became a therapist a little bit later, although I'm now teaching people who are becoming therapists well into their fifties and everything in between. But I think that what inspired me was I thought to myself, um, I had done a lot of different careers and lived a little bit of a wildlife in my twenties and decided that I needed to stabilize some things. I had college, so I thought, okay, what would I do every day that I'd enjoy doing that? Um,
that I could get paid for. And I just knew that a lot of people would come to me. A lot of people trusted me and I gave great advice. And that was one of the things that inspired me. I'm like, I can just sit and listen to people and give them advice all day. I'm going to school to be a therapist. I had a good experience in therapy. And then I got to school and it became very clear that number one, and it does with all my students, that's not what therapy is. Number two, I'm not just going to sit and listen and give advice at all.
As a matter of fact, it's much more difficult than that. So ⁓ what goes into being a therapist? Well, first, the education. Undergraduate is helpful. Your college degree to understand, you're again, you're only learning knowledge and it's usually ⁓ kind of a limited way, particularly if it's psychology undergraduate. But in general, it's a limited perspective and it's knowledge only. You're not going to get, and you're not going to get the amount of knowledge in class that you get in a graduate program.
But once you go into your graduate program, what people don't recognize is in addition to learning all the research, all of the modalities, all of the theory application, all of the theories, learning a biopsychosocial integration of why people ⁓ become who they are, why they act the way they do, why they feel and respond the way that they do. That's the beginning of it. Throughout all of the classes, you're talking about yourself.
Every student has to talk about themselves in a vulnerable way, which sounds terrible for most people, but it is not like a degree in chemistry where they don't worry about who you are as a person. They want you to be able to do that math, whatever it is that you need to do in chemistry, which I'm pretty ignorant about. And that's it. You graduate and you can go on about your business. But with us, it looks a lot different. It is what you are becoming as a human. People come out of these programs very different. Their relationships change.
where you are bringing so much up about yourself because one of the most important qualifications as a therapist is to assure as much as possible that how you think your life path, your life experiences are not projected onto your client. And that's a lot of what we're seeing with an experienced or uneducated. should say that people are very educated at times, but not in this realm ⁓ of what's happening on social media and out in the world. ⁓ And people talking about these things on a regular basis.
also say is that after you've done your master's program, after all of that, you've gone through these residencies, you've gone through these in-person experiences, what they call pre-practicum, then practicum, now you're seeing clients with an excessive amount of what we call clinical supervision. They're doing two to four hours a week of bringing these cases into their small groups with their clinical supervisor. Usually for us, it's ⁓ a certain kind of approved supervisor. That's another.
qualification that we need to get. And they're doing that through all through school for the last year, usually, if not a little longer. Then they graduate. They've taken all these classes, written all these papers, explored themselves through all of this, as well as learn all of it. And then time comes for the licensure journey. The licensure journey doesn't happen right away either. So for many states, you take a test. Everybody has to take, actually all the states, have to take an exam, which can be very complicated. It's all applications.
of these theories, all application of ethics and diversity and culture and all the things that we need to learn to be good therapists, be able to work with almost anybody. But after that, in addition to that, now you have to find yourself another clinical supervisor. And that person's gonna be with you usually, I don't know, probably an hour to a week. And they're usually available for emergencies, phone calls, ethical situations.
possible CPS calls, possible suicidal ideation, and all the other things that can come up in sessions. And that's about another 3000 hours. It's sometimes more. New Jersey, for instance, is 4000 hours. I believe Texas is 2000. But that's a lot of extra work. So it takes five to six years for most people to become a licensed therapist. So once they graduate, they can start seeing clients. They've already seen clients in school, but now the supervision is a little less. Now they're weaning off.
but the supervisor is still legally responsible for them. So it's actually pretty complex, the process of doing this. And I think that when I got into school, and it's the same when these students come into school, they don't know what they're getting into. ⁓ And you do change, you do change. And so as a professor, I love this part. I love the part where they all just say, wait, so we're not, wait, we're not getting advice? I'm like, no, because you don't know, you're not the expert of that person's.
you're well trained in how to help them move forward in the way that they want to move forward. They're setting the goals, not you. They're saying I'm coming here because, and you ask something along the lines of what would it look like when you don't need or want to come here anymore? Everybody does it a little differently. Every therapist looks different. Every therapist does things a little differently. But if you go to five therapists, chances are they're going to say,
similar things to get you to think and move in the direction that you'd like to move. So it's not as simple as what's healthy or not healthy, which is, think that word is a little bit overused and trite and not exactly accurate because what might be healthy to one person is absolutely not healthy to another, just like in eating.
Chris 1 (34:42)
Well, so that that is a good segue to a question that's in my mind, Kareem, because we talked about therapists. So you can decide how far you want to go with this and you can respond to this in general or you can respond to this individually, because there are there are therapists slash psychiatrists who ⁓ don't necessarily have the best reputation.
and doesn't mean that they're universally panned, but there's a section of the populace that see them as scammers or I don't know what the right word is. Dr. Phil comes to mind. ⁓ Mel Robbins, what's that? Grefters, so whatever you wanna call him, got Dr. Phil, Mel Robbins seems to get that a lot.
Chris Bevolo (35:23)
Grifters.
Coreen 1 (35:24)
Yes it did.
Yes it did.
Chris Bevolo (35:27)
grift, grifters.
Chris 1 (35:36)
⁓ Jordan Peterson, who I didn't even know was a psychiatrist, but ⁓ boy, he's controversial. So you could say Dr. Phil, as just an example, is one reason why therapy is more in the mainstream, because of his show and because he popularized it right. But also it turns out the guy's a, I don't know, in my opinion, he's a jackass.
Coreen 1 (36:04)
Yes.
Chris 1 (36:04)
I
mean, I don't know about his therapy credentials, but he just, and I know that ⁓ from what I've read and from conversations Des and I have had, the therapy community has feelings about Mel Robbins, again, not universally, but talk about whoever you want to talk about if you're comfortable or just in generality, that balance between, okay, some of these folks are making this more popular, but also not always a good thing.
Coreen 1 (36:33)
Yeah, I love that. know. And I love that you brought up Noel Robbins because the whole world was worshiping her when I wasn't. And finally, some of this is coming out. I, we all all the therapists talk to monks, talk amongst ourselves with this let them thing. And we're like, oh, so radical mindfulness acceptance, like we already knew what that is. It's very hard to practice. It's not new and brilliant. And is she I don't she's not a therapist, right? No, she's not a therapist.
Chris 1 (36:34)
If that's true, that's your point of view.
Chris Bevolo (37:00)
She's not, she's a.
Chris 1 (37:05)
What is she?
Chris Bevolo (37:06)
Fizzamu... Exactly.
Coreen 1 (37:06)
Right. Right.
Chris 1 (37:10)
I mean,
I think she gets lumped in there because of the advice, right? It's just advice, but it really has stirred up from what I've seen, and I think you just addressed it, the therapy community. So I think there's that, no, no, no, no, no, that's not therapy, which is fair.
Coreen 1 (37:27)
Yeah.
Well, and I think ⁓ one of the things is that there's an as well personally get to Dr. Phil, let me start with Phil, Dr. Phil was a was a licensed psychologist who lost his license for ethical concerns. ⁓ He also was a substance abuse professional. He's not an MFT, marriage, family therapist or couples therapist. He had ⁓ no business doing that.
And one of the reasons, and again, I can't speak for Tanya, but one of the reasons I have a hard time with therapy reality shows is because our ethical codes, which are there for good reasons. I've been doing this for over 20 years now. And the ethics are not just, we can't do that. There's excellent reasons. There are stories that I could tell that would blow your mind about things I've witnessed and things that have happened. And so the ethics guide is more than just we can or can't do it.
people are not going to understand some of those regulations. One of the ethics guides is that we are to keep everything confidential and that we need a release of information, right? So I know in these reality shows they get those, ⁓ you know, to have a release of information. But the reason that Dr. Phil wasn't licensed, so he never needed that. We would never talk to our clients the way he talks to people. ⁓ And so I watched that evolution with him and
At the time I was a little more passionate about people who didn't get it. Now I'm like, they don't get it. That's why I'm glad you're having this show. But at the time it was very, very, it angered me that I saw all of these ethical concerns just being stripped over. And he knew, he knew because he did have a psychology degree. ⁓ And so when I think about, you know, one of the things that we see is, let me give you an example with one of these memes that works really well. You might see something out there like,
Maybe, and I love this one, I've had friends post it, maybe it's not trauma. Maybe it's all the oppression or maybe, no, I'm sorry, maybe it's not major depressive disorder. Maybe it's the trauma that you've had to regulate the entire time and these are just survival skills. And maybe you don't have major depressive disorder. Maybe it's just a normal reaction to trauma. We know that ⁓ once again, and yes, of course it is. And major depressive disorder is not, people will say things like situational versus clinical. That's not our language.
major depressive disorder is because they have a clump of symptoms that we can research and help with. The etiology for most therapists, or I should say where it comes from, isn't really that important. That's for the researchers. ⁓ And so for us, it's much more important of, they meet this criteria of symptomology. Let me look at the research. Let me consult with other people. Let me learn what the best way is or the best road that might be helpful to them. at that
point we can individualize it, which is impossible to do on reality television. Additionally, ⁓ there's the Hawthorne effect. When the camera's in your face, you're not going to be yourself. And that's whether it's a therapist or people that are in couples therapy. It's going to be edited. ⁓ It's not going to be a real representation of what therapy looks like. And there's a magic that happens in the room that nobody is going to see.
⁓ So we do have people out there with credentials that don't do a good job. The large majority of them have either given up those licensures or they have, ⁓ they just do it anyway. But I think for me personally, and this is not to put down people who have been on TV as therapists doing therapy. I know once in a while it happens, but I've been asked before and I turned them down twice. I've turned down something like that for reality television.
because it's not within my code of ethics. And I know that we can get around that because our code of ethics is not a law to guide. ⁓ So there are a lot of people, there's bad therapists out there. Absolutely, absolutely. But I think that when you start putting yourself on TV, it becomes about you and not about the client. And once it becomes more about you than the client,
therapy becomes a back burner process. Additionally, just a clarification, people often don't know the difference between a marriage and family therapist, a licensed political social worker, a professional counselor, a psychologist and a psychiatrist. And just to throw it out there, psychiatrists do not do therapy. And the ones that do are practicing out of their scope unless they've gotten extra degrees or licensures. They are asking questions, they are assessing a situation.
so that they are medical doctors, ⁓ generally speaking, or nurse practitioners who are able to look at what medications might work if the person would like, they're coming to them for medication, if the person would like to consider those. Again, they're not forced on people, it's how can we help? And a psychiatrist usually helps with
Chris Bevolo (42:26)
It's interesting the terminology that has been like kind of translating through the ages. Like I remember back in the day, ⁓ my analyst, this is like the, ⁓ my God, what was that dance of fame? ⁓ the movie fame where the, sweet guy that lived in the building that had like the neon sign in it, he was always someone like, my analyst said that, that, that, ⁓ and then you get to like, therapists and like all of the lists and like they're all
Coreen 1 (42:37)
Right!
huh.
Chris Bevolo (42:53)
they all do different things. ⁓ So to clarify Mel Robbins, she is a former lawyer and like a motivational speaker and life coach who has no licenses in doing any of this work. But to your point and how, what kind of, you know, makes her this label of grifter is that like she's taken this opportunity for marketing from a podcast, from her social media feed, which is where she's gotten so big.
That's the reason why, is like there's money to be made, money to be had in this space that does create like some of these bad actors in this space.
Coreen 1 (43:27)
Yeah!
And lawyers and attorneys really are trained a little bit different, well, a lot differently than we are. And some might say even in the opposite way, because lawyers have a different final destination. We operate in the gray so much and lawyers have to operate in the black and white where law is concerned. And if they want to ⁓ manipulate words in order to get things to a certain place, when they're advocating for their client who has hired them,
Sure, they can, but they have to support it with law. They have to support it with law, precedent setting law, whereas we are kind of the opposite. We live in the gray. We look at each thing under emotions, not just the facts ⁓ and looking at precedent, which is what lawyers do well and need to do well. That's their job. But so it's really interesting that she comes in as an attorney and many attorneys have a lot of good understanding of mental health, but the majority do not, you know?
⁓ So, yeah.
Chris Bevolo (44:31)
So, as
we're kind of getting into our show, with, know, Chris and I, he says it's a little bit or a lot of bit of therapy, group therapy, and just like people kind of figuring this out.
I know that when things are feeling very dire, which like right now, politically, the client, society, what have you, in a way, my assumption is that it's kind of similar to COVID times, where I remember hearing from friends and therapists talking about like, my God, it's not only are you having to navigate what's kind of going on in the world, but then you're also having and being there to help other folks navigate that.
Coreen 1 (44:47)
Oof.
Chris Bevolo (45:08)
and that you're essentially kind of dealing with the brunt of whatever societal issues are going on. So I'm just kind of curious, know, what are you as an other therapist, like what are you all kind of experiencing right now? And maybe even just some like words of advice ⁓ for others.
Coreen 1 (45:26)
Yeah.
I really appreciate that question. ⁓ When COVID came around, everybody was freaking out, right? Everybody, the majority of us had not been through anything like this before. ⁓ There was, became such a political arena when it was a medical arena. ⁓ We, everybody had to go online. People didn't know how to do it. All of these things that happened staying in the homes, which was terrible, especially for extroverts and not getting outside. We were going through the same thing.
Meanwhile, we're trying to figure out technology, not getting outside, dealing with all of this too. And it became, we had a lot of support groups for ourselves together. ⁓ We all said, okay, let's get a glass of wine together and talk about this because we need support in this. We don't even know what we're doing here. We did our best, but when the entire world shifted, the entire world shifted permanently, ⁓ just like what is happening now. And so I don't think, ⁓
Because we've been prepared ⁓ as therapists for cultural climate change, although this is pretty unprecedented what we're seeing at the level we're seeing it now in the country and what's happening, but it's the same thing. We are going through it with you. We're going through it with everybody else. And because ⁓ culture and marginalization is a big part of our learning process, this is, at least we have a baseline for how to manage this.
But people are literally hiding in their homes and we're seeing people who are afraid to leave their homes because they're afraid they're going to get deported and worse than that, even confined, arrested and detained here in the country with abuses. So since the levels of violence are increasing, we can often see this. People will give all kinds of reasons why these things happen. And we tend to look at this in this person is this way.
because of the effects of their environment, their biology, what genes are expressed in themselves and due to what traumas they've been to and every path as individuals. So now we have this person who's looking for something. ⁓ Yes, people do experience trauma and yes, it does shape us, especially if we're unaware of how it's shaping us. And so that being said, we can see all of this in this grand picture. ⁓ So it is very challenging for us to whittle it down
to a therapy session and really look at the effect that it's having on everybody. it is really amazing and magical what happened in these sessions, particularly in these times, because as far as my clients, they've all brought it up. I do work with lot of marginalized, traditionally marginalized populations, and I do a lot of sex therapy, and it changes the way everybody is interacting in their homes. So it's difficult for us too. It really is. ⁓
just trying to survive in the world, I think is a lot of what this podcast is about, right? Just trying to make sense of what's going on when we're not sure. And I think that we're all going to see it through our own lenses, of course, but this idea that we can separate politics from who we are as people ⁓ might make people feel a little better and can they can compartmentalize, but it's not really true. ⁓ All every step you take, every moment that you
Chris 1 (48:25)
It's effective. you
Yeah.
Coreen 1 (48:47)
have in your life is shaping you. Some would say from the womb. And so there are many, many things between epigenetics, genetic expression, and the many things that happen to us moment to moment that are going to shape who we are and the way those things interact with each other. I ⁓ think that it's very, very, we, we get, I don't want to sound like a victim here, but here I go. As far as first line emergency responders, they do some incredible work.
nurses, ⁓ paramedics, or you know, ⁓ it's really, really crazy what they deal with on a day to day. ⁓ We actually have an aspect of first response as well. And people call us for emergency sessions because of what they're going through and how the world has affected them. ⁓ And many, people in my purview have lost family members through the process of deportation or whatever we choose to call it now, because it's certainly a lot more than just deportation.
Chris 1 (49:45)
Yeah, that's something I've learned. Again, I won't speak for Tanya, I'm gonna speak of Tanya.
But when she started her practice in 2019, she had a focus and she still has a specialty in providing trauma therapy to first responders, which include therapists. ⁓ And you can imagine, know, firemen, policemen, doctors, they rarely get this support and they need it and therapists need it too. ⁓ And it's not a surprise that
Coreen 1 (50:09)
Yeah.
Chris 1 (50:18)
at the end of a day where you as a therapist or Tanya as a therapist who has to deal with the same stuff we're all dealing with, but is also helping however many people that day with crises and just incredible things. It's not a surprise that you're like, is my summer house? Where is my below deck? Just give me something so that I can just escape for two hours and not think about the world.
Coreen 1 (50:43)
Mm-hmm.
Chris 1 (50:48)
⁓ It's like completely understandable. It's amazing the stuff that you all do and how you do it. I want to get your opinion on something you touched on. It just triggered something for me when you talked about, started talking about COVID, because that's where a lot of things changed in the clinical field. One of them was really the emergence though it had been there before of what I will call mass therapy.
So think of something like Headspace where I remember where, know, Tanya started her practice in 2019 and you would think in 2020 she would have just been swamped and for a while she wasn't because so many companies were providing these kinds of services, EAP, Headspace, whatever, free to their employees, which was great, whether it's limited.
Coreen 1 (51:19)
⁓ yeah.
Chris 1 (51:43)
⁓ And then things went back to, okay, now we need real therapists. But that mass therapy is still here. And now we have the advent of AI driven therapy, ⁓ whether that's WoBot, whether it's, ⁓ it just seems like that's a big future. And I know that there are opinions on that in the therapy world. ⁓ So what's your take on
Coreen 1 (51:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Chris 1 (52:10)
that side of it, whether, and I may not be using the right phrase, you can correct me if it's not mass therapy, but that's how I think of it, where headspace can help 10,000 people in a day. But it's not the same, it's therapy, but it's obviously not the same. And not to pick on headspace, but that and AI therapy, I think is really shaping what's happening right now. And, you know, I'm not sure that's for good. So what's your take on all of that and where it's going?
Coreen 1 (52:39)
Yeah, much like a lot of these things, there are pros and cons, but I will tell you that a thing like a company like Headspace, they are licensed therapists. ⁓ They may not be great. They may be great. It really depends on who you get. But ⁓ the issue is the, like you said, the mass portion of it. are you're not choosing your own therapist. You can certainly change. And the other thing is
It is a cheaper way at the end of the day, it is a cheaper way for companies to provide what used to be just the EAP program. EAP is about eight sessions and the large majority of people that came through EAP then would go on to get therapy ⁓ because they're not supposed to be dealing with major issues. Now, something like ⁓ Headspace or I can't remember, there's a lot of them out there at this point.
The problem is they're not paying their therapist properly. There's a lot of unethical dealings at the other level. ⁓ so when therapists are going there, it's because they're just starting out and they need the income. need the clients. They, the, the pay is ludicrous. It's, it's very low and they basically are exploiting the therapists who are not making enough money for whatever reason, or they're just not as experienced in their practices. And so.
My issue with those is that they're being, they're replacing good therapists ⁓ in events with this blanket of therapists. So for example, there was an event I wanted to go to that ended up not happening, but I volunteered as a therapist. They have had therapists on at this event all the time because people can have things brought up for them. So they usually bring in about five to 10 therapists. They're volunteers. We enjoy doing it. We're there if they need us.
And I got an email back that said, we've decided to go through. wasn't ⁓ Headway or Headspace or whatever. It was one of the other ones. So here's the problem. There's no vetting. You're just going to get who you get when it's on immediate like that. It's a very different process. It's not as personalized. They will say it's personalized, but it's certainly not. So I don't like that. And we have yet to see how that's going to pan out.
⁓ Follow through and some of these can be a problem. Having the same therapist can be a problem because therapists are coming and going. There are a lot of problems and nuances that are ⁓ becoming more pronounced with those kind of companies that I don't think are, I don't think it's great. ⁓ On the other hand, there is access that people can get for short-term therapy that may be harder to get in other ways. So I don't always think that it's bad, but the trend of it I don't care for.
AI as a whole other conversation, right? AI can be used, and as many people have said, AI is a disaster and it's incredible at the same time. And what people are starting to understand about AI quote unquote therapy, or just simply ask, I asked ChatGPP, they're there to confirm and validate that you're the greatest person ever and it's always the other person. And you can put, you know, people.
will put all their text messages into AI and be like, you who's the asshole? But AI is smarter than that. And they know, they know that it's, ⁓ they know what they need to tell you to get you to come back. Once again, this is a bottom line issue, not a therapeutic issue. And so that's already a problem. Now, as I teach, I do teach online to hybrid program. And so we do use AI to help us teach.
Chris Bevolo (55:57)
Okay.
Coreen 1 (56:19)
But it's all done under our supervision, the guise of those things. We have some great tools out there, but we spend a lot of time designing them, but therapists are just, who knows, with an instructional designer. ⁓ But we discourage the use of AI, and right now many places are, education's figuring out how do we do this and still have people, have the ability to think critically, particularly in this field, because things are so nuanced. We don't want people to just jump through the program. There's a big gatekeeping process to what we do.
So ⁓ as far as AI therapy, I don't have a lot of faith in that because of one of the things that we found is something common factors research is, what are the common factors amongst all of our theoretical approaches? So we're looking at these common factors and the major, major change agent. Yes, it's the client's motivation. Yes, it's the approaches, but the major change agent is who your therapist is.
What is your relationship with your therapist? And at this point, people could argue, people have AI, you know, partners or girlfriends or all kinds of things. Now I'm not against it. I kind of like the idea of a sex robot, but I digress. So here's, here's the deal with that. It's too nuanced. It's the human being, you know, it's you need somebody reacting in real time. You need the energy between you. Even if you do distance therapy online, there's an energy that happens. That's the change factor.
or that's the prerequisite of any change that a person is asking for in therapy. That's where I think AI is going to fall short because that energy, it's simply not a human being. It's simply not a human being.
Chris 1 (58:03)
So, Tani and I have good conversations about this and I'll leave her opinions out of it, but I do think what you're saying is super interesting. You know, I spent a lot of time studying AI and its impact on the environment and the world and careers, and I do believe it is going to take many jobs. I really do believe that. ⁓ I actually think for therapists, it's going to increase the demand for therapists.
Coreen 1 (58:08)
You
yeah.
Chris 1 (58:29)
There will be plenty of AI therapy solutions, that's 100 % sure. But there's also going to be what you just talked about, a growing number of people who build relationships with AI because they can't do so with humans. And that is going to drive the need for therapy in and of itself. Because that is probably safe to say not the healthiest.
Coreen 1 (58:35)
Mm-hmm.
Chris 1 (58:57)
thing. Maybe it will be. don't know. Maybe in the future it'll be fine. now it's probably safe to say it's not healthy for you to build a primary relationship, a dependent relationship on AI. ⁓ And the more that that happens, I would just guess the more people are going to need real help. So I would say that therapy is probably a very safe profession moving forward because of that and because people will always need and want humans.
⁓ as their therapist. Like I just think that's one of those things that even though it could be replaced theoretically, I just, I don't see that happening. I think going the other way. So that's my take on that.
Coreen 1 (59:28)
yeah. Well...
Yeah.
And I also think with what you're saying is right now, human beings, human bodies, ⁓ we know through our research, we need light, we need outside. ⁓ One of the things we talk about in therapy all the time is we use somatics. This is not new to us either. ⁓ But we do know that people are driven. This is amped. We're driven by human connection and the relationships we form with other people. And think about what's happening right now with what
silent book clubs, ⁓ people wanting, how do I build connection in real time? Because they don't know necessarily this next generation coming up. They are starving for analog ⁓ connection. And I don't recall in my growing up experience that being, ⁓ like we already had that. We had to, we had to go to work, we had to go to school, ⁓ we had to interact with our neighbors and I could go there. But if you don't have to do all that,
⁓ the research shows over and over again, you will become sick, ⁓ certainly emotionally and ⁓ empty and potentially also physically. But the reason these things are trending right now with people is like we're missing that. We hear it all the time. And I'm not saying that we can't have a beautiful integration of both of these things. It's not to me, it's not an either or, it's not pro or anti. It's how do we integrate these things that don't
destroy in the long term the very important need for mammals in general, including humans to have that human connection. And I see it all the time. We recently went into a place that we couldn't use our phones. And I think it was just pretty much a coffee shop. And there were board games everywhere. I guess what we did, we put our stuff down and we didn't have our phones out. And
we interacted differently. And I think that people are really wanting that. And that just kind of goes to your point that therapy in general ⁓ is something that people really, really, really, really get a lot from. anyone that goes into the, hate therapy or I, know, therapy doesn't work or therapy does work. It works for people and it doesn't work for some people. And that could have a lot to do with readiness and the therapist that you jive with, because you have to.
Connect with your therapist. You have to like them to be perfectly honest.
Chris 1 (1:02:01)
Yeah.
Chris Bevolo (1:02:02)
So, like with our topic of kind of this rise of like pop psychology, you you had mentioned that essentially might've
started with like Dr. Phil, his rise from the Overwinfer show. Thanks a lot, Oprah.
to social media where people are just putting out whatever folks that aren't even remotely qualified influencers and you need to get folks like the Mel Robbins. And then again, the, that notion of it's, we're all looking at these avenues of like getting to that place of actually getting a licensed therapist. So with the talk space and head space and I forgot what the other one is. And we didn't even get to this like,
with men, the Manosphere, they're going to just YouTube videos of other dudes telling you the worst things you've ever heard in your entire life that you should not do, to this idea of like, trying to find connection in this deeply digital world, that all of this really is building upon each other and is connected back to that sense of A, finding a sense of connection with themselves, with their community, with their loved ones, finding more relationships.
Coreen 1 (1:02:53)
Yeah.
Chris Bevolo (1:03:14)
but then also being able to learn how to be better in those relationships. But what I'm noticing is all of these things are kind of skirting around the thing that they should actually just be doing it. And that is from what I gather is to get an actual licensed therapist. And that Korean you essentially kind of gave us all of the reasons why, but that's what I'm noticing is like we always as humans, we skirt around all of the different things. ⁓
Coreen 1 (1:03:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. ⁓
Chris Bevolo (1:03:43)
instead of actually jumping into what we should be doing. But it's, know we're about ready to wrap. Is there anything else around this that we might have missed or any other key takeaways from this convo?
Coreen 1 (1:03:58)
could certainly talk about this for hours and hours and hours, but I do think that getting a therapist, you can also look at all your memes at the same time. You can talk about those things with your therapist, but there's lots of paths to healing. ⁓ I obviously advocate for therapy. But what one thing the avenue is not to healing is social media, one size fits all memes from
unlicensed and untrained people around human nature. And because people don't really know what we do, they really don't. ⁓ And, you know, me being an MFT, I'm trained in a systems approach. So everything is built around the systems that we're a part of, whether it be the family system or larger, or the complete system that we're living in now in our country and the world. So go ahead and look at your memes, go ahead and listen to those influencers. But if you're doing it without a therapist,
you're going to be missing out on a lot of opportunity. And just to say, I know starting therapy is scary. And I know people think I'm over it because they're not thinking about it, but your body will respond and you will have issues in your life. And of course we all have therapists. So just to put out, put that out there, we need therapists to be good therapists so that we can have this continual journey of yes, being better in our relationships. Cause it's easier to isolate yourself and you now you don't have any problems because you're not interacting with anybody.
So I really appreciate the topic and really appreciate an opportunity to get to share some of these things that have been on my mind for a long time outside of in my little trusted circles.
Chris 1 (1:05:39)
Well, was great to have you. Perfect, perfect topic. Perfect topic. Because yes, we've said this a couple times, but this, it turns into group therapy. And like already, I'm just like, she can't use that. We shouldn't use that because it's not really group therapy. ⁓ It's more just like, hey, we all get together. We just like, God, all right, we got to figure out how to get through this or that or the other. ⁓ And knowing how to leverage therapy and the importance of therapy and what's therapy and what's not therapy and
that not everybody is a narcissist. I'm gonna say our president is a narcissist. I think that's fair. I don't know, I know you can't clinically diagnose remotely. So I'm just gonna be the pop psychologist and just say that's gonna wrap with that.
Coreen 1 (1:06:18)
Bye.
I'm right.
Well, and I think we have,
we talk amongst ourselves certainly. And again, for people listening therapy, starting therapy can be scary, but be patient with yourself and really trust the process because you'll be surprised what can happen as long as you find a good fit. And if you don't like the person that you're working with, go find somebody else.
Chris 1 (1:06:47)
Exactly. All right. So, Kareem, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, it was great to see you again. Des, as always, thank you.
Coreen 1 (1:06:50)
Thank you.
Chris Bevolo (1:06:58)
closer.
Chris 1 (1:07:00)
Pleasure. Pleasure is all ours. I think it's fair. And to all of you, thank you for joining us. We hope this has helped you cope in some way with the world around us. Please like and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. That helps ensure more people can see the show and hear the show. Give us five stars. We'd love that. Visit www.bearing287.com or follow me on Substack to access other helpful content from our network. I am Chris Bevello. And once again, on behalf of I'm not even supposed to be here today.
and Bering287, thanks for joining us. We will see you next week. Bye bye.