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A podcast for homeschool families brought to you by Sequoia Grove Charter Alliance. Encouragement, tips & tricks, interviews with HSTs and curriculum help.
Rebecca: Welcome, listeners, to the Sequoia Breeze podcast. A breath of fresh air for your homeschool. I am your host, Rebecca LaSavio. Thank you so much for joining today. I'm excited to introduce you to Megan Nason, the head of special education at Sequoia Grove. And I probably just messed that up because I forgot to ask you your exact title before we started.
Megan: No worries.
Rebecca: What is your title?
Megan: I am the director of student support and special education.
Rebecca: There we go. That sounds more professional. How long have you been with our schools?
Megan: Oh, gosh. I have been with our schools over five years.
Rebecca: Okay, so tell us a little bit about yourself. I'd love to hear a little bit of your story. How did you end up the director of student support in special education?
Megan: It's a wild one. Yeah. I've been in education over 15 years. I like to say I had a very backwards start into my teaching. I actually started teaching in what we call residential treatment center. So I worked with high school students. They lived on campus, pretty significant disabilities, and I say if I hadn't moved, I'd still be there today. I loved it. I went from there to a non public school, again, dealing with some kettles with some pretty significant disabilities and behavior concerns. And then I went to third grade. So I'm Julie credentialed. I have a special education credential and a general education credential. Loved third grade. Definitely having a special education background significantly helped in understanding and being able to support those kiddos. At the time, I wasn't living here in California, so I transitioned back to California, went back into special education, spent some time in special day classes, which is a school campus based program, a little bit more restrictive, and then came here. So I actually was a case manager when I first started. And back when we were inspire, we had statewide programs. So I moved to the assessment statewide team as a program specialist, supporting all 14 of our charter schools. And then, as we've kind of branched off, wound up here, which is not something I would have ever told you I ever wanted to do, but I do love it. And this is my third year as our director of student support and special education, and it has come a long way in this short amount of time.
Rebecca: How did you end up pursuing special education in the first place?
Megan: High school. Okay. I had to mid year change classes, and the only elective class that they had left was the adaptive PE aid. And I had no idea what any of that meant, but I absolutely fell in love with the kids. They were part of the moderate to severe high school program. Okay. We had a lot of wheelchair bound kiddos. We had a deaf student. I remember it never made sense to me, like, why everyone wasn't learning sign language to communicate with her. I'm like, well, this just doesn't make sense. Like, I'm gonna learn sign language so I can talk to her. And that's really where I fell in love with. It was watching what daily life looked like for these families and these kids and seeing the impact that we could have in their lives and just the simplest things would make them so happy.
Rebecca: And so did you go into college pursuing that?
Megan: I did.
Rebecca: Okay.
Megan: But it was important to me. I spent a lot of time looking for a program that offered both because the burnout is so high in special education, and I really wanted to also have that general education option. Right. And I love both sides. I loved being a general education teacher as much as I loved being a special education teacher, but that's really where the special education. I think I always knew I wanted to be a teacher, but it wasn't until high school, okay. And I was a freshman in high school, so I spent the rest of my high school career from that point forward working with the special education students on campus.
Rebecca: Really interesting. Yeah, that's super cool. Okay, so I didn't actually say what we're gonna hear to talk about today, but I feel like it's probably pretty obvious. So we are gonna talk about our sped program, our special ed program, and student support. It's a tricky topic because it's super nuanced. It's big and complicated. It can be very emotional for families because it's not an easy path. And there are so many acronyms and terms that the rest of us. It's a whole other language. So it can be super like, in addition to already feeling perhaps tired or emotional or scared or worried, a family is also trying to learn a new language to be able to have the conversations that need to happen. So we are going to attempt to unpack some of these terms and lay out kind of what does the school offer and how can families find it and when should they seek it out? Does that sound like a good plan?
Megan: Sounds like a good plan.
Rebecca: Okay, first of all, I want to identify a couple of terms that are just going to come out as acronyms, and that's just what it is. So special education is abbreviated as SPEd. So when we talk about the sped program, that's what we mean is it's special education. The other term we're going to say plenty of times is IEP.
Megan: And that stands for individualized education plan.
Rebecca: Okay. And that when a child is in the sped program, that child will have an IEP outlining what they need.
Megan: Correct. Okay.
Rebecca: And that's a super simple explanation. Yes. Okay. What other terms are we gonna say over and over that we should just define now?
Megan: L R E stands for least restrictive environment and we're gonna talk about that and what that means in terms of our school. Okay. Every school setting looks a little different. Okay. But Lre. And then SST, SST, I'll divide it into sped terms and student support terms. How about that? So we don't. Okay, so sped terms, Lre most restrictive environment sai specialized academic instruction. We will talk about potentially, like different disability categories. So one of the most common is like SLD specific learning disability. These are the things students have to qualify under to get and receive an IEP. Okay.
Rebecca: All right, that's probably enough for now.
Megan: I know. If more come up, I'll try it.
Rebecca: Yeah, just call me out on that. We'll define them as we go. But I know that Sped and IEP are just going to roll off both of our tongues. I want to get that one for sure. Out of the way. Okay, so I'd like you to talk about, um. And you actually already hinted at it a little bit. I am learning that there is the Sped department. Student support is a little bit different. So why don't you give us a quick overview of sped versus student support and we'll hash those out a little more as we go.
Megan: Okay. Student support is at access for all students. And the one thing I want to clarify is oftentimes people will say, well, they're a sped student and I want us all to remember that they're a gen ed student first. Right. And so Gen ed students, all of our students within our organization have access to student support services, which are tiered interventions, student study team meetings, and we'll talk a little bit more about what these things are. Section 504, social emotional learning. Right. So any student can access these, these things. Special education is very specific. Students have to go through assessment in order to qualify to receive an IEP.
Rebecca: So there's a gate.
Megan: Yes.
Rebecca: To the sped program.
Megan: Yes.
Rebecca: And you have to sort of receive the key to go into the sped department. But student support is a wide open cafeteria. Come on in and have a seat.
Megan: Yes.
Rebecca: Okay.
Megan: And go along with that analogy with that gate. There are only 13 keys that can get you in on that IEP.
Rebecca: Okay?
Megan: So. And those are our eligibility categories. So that's what signifies a learning disability. Okay. So 13 keys open up that door to have that individualized education.
Rebecca: And I want to specify this is not sequoia grove locking that gate. These are state standards of what qualifies a child for the extra support that comes along with being in special ed.
Megan: Yes. And they're even at the federal, so that actually comes from the federal level. Okay. So you have federal and then you have state. Okay. Lots of rules.
Rebecca: Okay. And it's not so much about keeping people out as making sure that the kids that really need the keys get them and that those services are available to them.
Megan: Yes. Okay. Yes.
Rebecca: Student support is available for all kids who are struggling, regardless of whether that's a learning delay or perhaps life circumstances that have perhaps not boosted them along as quickly as they could have. Or some kids are just late bloomers. Yeah, absolutely.
Megan: I always say student supports your starting point. Always. Always.
Rebecca: So let's start there. Let's talk about that starting point and how the system progresses. A system that's not there to frustrate, but that is there to be stepping stones along the path, and hopefully many of the kids will find a path off of that that fits them before they ever get to the gate.
Megan: Yes.
Rebecca: Okay.
Megan: Yeah. All right.
Rebecca: So beginning stepping stone.
Megan: I like to think of it like the visual of a ladder, right? And we're starting at the bottom, and this is where that Lre, or least restrictive environment comes in. So the state and federal levels say that we need to serve our students in their least restrictive environment. So if you think about it, it makes more sense to equate it to brick and mortar, even though we're not. So if you pretended that we were a school site, right. We want our kids. Our goal should always be that they're always in that. That gen ed classroom 100% of the time. Right. That would be the least restrictive environment. They have access to same aged peers, all of those things. But we do have kiddos who have struggles and need more support. Right. And that's where that ladder comes in and, like, walking up that ladder of support. And so when you look at student support, that's where you start to play with your least restrictive environment to say, maybe we have star scores come in. Right. And there's some indicators that they're on watch for intervention that really would be like, oh, or they're in the red and they need intervention. That doesn't necessarily be like, okay, we're going all the way to the top of the ladder and we're requesting that sped assessment. So if you think about it. Special education is the most restrictive option we have to support a student. And I always like to say. I always say we need to work ourselves out of a job in sped, right? Because the goal is not to go to the IEP, stay on the IEP forever. It's like the IEP is designed to fill in the gaps and get them back to that gen ed as fast as possible.
Rebecca: And so, actually, the first step on that red star test would be a conversation with the HST of, like, did this kid even pay attention to the test or not so many?
Megan: Yes. Okay. Yes.
Rebecca: So first, this conversation with the parents. Should we just redo this little test here?
Megan: Well, and be curious. Like, that's really it. Like, we always have to approach it with such curiosity to ask those questions. People on my team will tell you, I'm like the question queen, right? Where they'll be like, hey, I just want an answer. I'm like, well, I have these 500 questions for you. And it usually guides into, have we tried this? Have we tried this resource? We have so many resources, and it can be overwhelming to know where to start, but that's where we come in and being able to support our families and our HSTs in knowing which step of that ladder you might need to go.
Rebecca: So, a, no, we're not gonna do an assessment test right now is not necessarily a, we're not interested in helping you. It's, let's back up and figure out exactly where the proper help would be. Absolutely. The very first step is they just decided to click only b for every question on the staar test or, okay, reading is. They're struggling with reading, so we're gonna back up and work on that. So, okay, so a parent says, my kids in third grade, and they're not reading HST, notices a low star score. Something. Something triggers a question, or I don't know if my kid's dyslexic or not. Those kinds of things. I mean, I know there's lots of lots and lots and lots and lots of possibilities, which is why this is a difficult podcast. So if we don't mention the thing that your child might be struggling with, it's not. It just is too broad. It's so broad. So please hear us in that we're attempting to bring some general answers, to bring some general guidance to a highly specific situation. Okay, that was perfect. Okay, so there is an alarm bell of some sort. So what's the first step? Is.
Megan: So the first step of that alarm bell, really, like you said, is those conversations. Right. Looking at curriculum, looking at access to curriculum, looking at consistency. Yeah. How, you know, are they even accessing grade level curriculum? That can be a big one, too. Right?
Rebecca: Meaning, let's say you have a kiddo.
Megan: Who'S in third grade, okay? But they struggle with reading, so, rightfully so. It's like, well, they can access the first grade curriculum. Okay, right. But then when we're giving them a star. Right? Star. Our statewide testing, they haven't seen any of the content. Right.
Rebecca: Okay.
Megan: And so that because they're working on.
Rebecca: Reading at first grade level, they're unfamiliar with the third grade level ideas that are being absolutely okay.
Megan: Right. And so in our homeschool setting, I would say that's what we see the most of is when we, especially when it gets to request for a special education assessment and we're reviewing records and looking at work samples, it's like, oh, this. This kiddo hasn't even had access to that. Which makes sense.
Rebecca: Okay.
Megan: But that's where intervention. We have intervention toolkits, scaffolding, breaking things down. Okay.
Rebecca: So we need to be building up to. But it's not that there's necessarily a learning difficulty.
Megan: Correct.
Rebecca: There's. We aren't up to that level yet.
Megan: It could be. Yeah.
Rebecca: Okay.
Megan: I would say that's the most common thing we see is when we dig into it, it's. And I absolutely understand. Right. You know, you want to give our kids the things they can access, and student support is designed to provide the tools and supports those intervention pieces where it's like, okay, they're in third grade. We know they're reading at a first grade level. So what interventions do we need to implement to help support those skills and build those skills as quickly as possible?
Rebecca: Do you mean things like, maybe mom or learning coach needs to be reading the third grade history and science to them because they are not yet capable of reading it so they can get the concepts at the grade level while working with help bringing the reading levels up.
Megan: You are an accommodation pro, but that's also unknown.
Rebecca: But that's also homeschooling. Like, let's find our.
Megan: And that's the beautiful part of homeschool. And I think the one, a big misconception is that accommodation, you can only have accommodations if you are on a section 504 plan or a individualized education plan, an IEP. And that is not true. Accommodations are really just good teaching practices, just like what you said. Okay. And any kiddo can have those. And that's really where our student support team can help so much. Even if our HSTs are like, I just don't even know what to do to help support this family. And in the beginning, reach out to our wonderful intervention teachers who can say, hey, have you tried this? Also, we have our MTSS, another acronym, which is multi tiered systems of supports. Those are our interventions. You have three tiers. You have tier one, which are our programs, like Freckle, the all access kinds of things. Then you have tier two, which are live interventions. So we have reading interventions and math interventions. And when you see those kiddos where it's like, okay, we've tried. I've worked with the parent, you know, HST. I've worked with the parent. We've tried these things, you know, we're just not seeing the progress that we're wanting to see. Sign these kiddos up for those eight week intervention cycles. And. And our intervention teachers are phenomenal, and they take that targeted data and that's really where they're like, okay, like, this kiddo made great progress, right? And it's like, okay, they just need some more consistency. And they, our intervention teachers will provide the data, give data to parents and the HSTs for updates, recommendations for what they can do moving forward. But it's also a way to say, hey, this kiddo maybe wasn't making as fast a progress. I'm going to recommend a second cycle of intervention.
Rebecca: You can get some validation to your concerns or some solutions of like, I think that these methods might work well and you can move on. So you can leave the path this direction to. We've figured out how this kid's learning or where the gap was that was keeping them from moving forward, or, you know, I do see some struggles. And let's keep down this path onto further intervention.
Megan: Right.
Rebecca: So let me back up real quick. Cause even as a family liaison, this has been something I've been trying to get clear in my head. Anybody can sign up for an intervention class, anybody. You don't have to go through your hst or you do hst.
Megan: Sign our kiddos hst.
Rebecca: Sign them up. So it's not like signing them up for a club or something that you do it yourself.
Megan: Yep. Okay. If a parent is interested, we have a whole course catalog. HST's have access to it to see what our classes are, class descriptions.
Rebecca: And those don't necessarily go by grade level so much as where they're actually.
Megan: Working or it's grade level spans. Okay? So, yes, they are no more than ten kid. I mean, it's kind of that smaller group instruction, they run on eight week cycles. We do have a couple reading decoding classes that are year long because that is definitely a great need. And we've just, it has grown so much. We, for this last cycle was the first cycle. We have waiting lists now. Okay. And so for me as a director, I'm like, okay, time to look at hiring some more intervention teachers.
Rebecca: Because you would rather spend the time and energy on intervention where kids don't can get back off the ladder.
Megan: Absolutely. It's their lesser restrictive environment and that's what it's all about. It's supporting kiddos in the least restrictive way to them as possible, which is an odd concept here because of our school structure. That's why I always kind of explain it to, like, that brick and mortar model.
Rebecca: Well, I mean, it's, the home environment is their least restrictive environment, but we want to find the best way to put another leg under their stool to try to help them not fall off.
Megan: And then you're walking up that support ladder, right? So you're at that MTSS level now, let's say after two eight week cycles of intervention, that intervention prevention teacher is like, hey, I'm still concerned. We've had real limited progress. That's when you're gonna move to that next little step on that ladder, to our student study team process. And that's highly individualized. Okay.
Rebecca: And I wanna pause that for just a second and back up to say, I can imagine quite a few situations where a kid might want to, where being an intervention could be helpful. And especially as somebody who is very much in contact with the incoming families, I know there's lots and lots and lots coming from brick and mortar where perhaps the child, you know, whether it's leftover COVID things, where they missed math that year because it was just miserable, or, you know, things just got behind and the school atmosphere is changing. And so if they missed some concepts in math that are really leaving them behind their grade level because they can't keep up anymore, that's the kind of thing where an intervention could step in, fill in those gaps and help them start to catch up and move along a little faster. You could also just have kids who are late bloomers or maybe there was an illness or something. You know, maybe they got evacuated during Kaldor and lost some months and they're still trying to catch back up from that because when you feel behind it, it's harder to sometimes catch up because you feel behind and it becomes a cycle.
Megan: Yeah, well, and one of the things I think I'm most proud of is that we even have a student support team. So, gosh, I don't know if I have ever worked at a brick and mortar school that had a true intervention program. The last school I worked at, I was supporting with the implementation of one. But there's a massive gap, and so I understand why people, it's just, you have a struggling kid, you ask for a special education assessment. I get it because there is a massive middle piece of programming that is lacking from our school systems. And I'm proud that we get to say we have it. And it has grown significantly over these last two and a half years. And we're supporting so many kids, and it's a wonderful thing to see. There's nothing better to see than a kid who is getting the help that they need in the way they need.
Rebecca: It, and their wings are starting to come out.
Megan: They are. But knowing that in another school that that might have ended up being an overqualification for a IEP that they maybe never needed. Right, right. And the one thing we see is kids getting identified, and I'm not. There's so many kids who, yes, absolutely, truly need it, but we are in an over identification crisis nationwide for students. In my opinion, it's because that middle part of the ladder is missing, and that middle part is student support. Okay.
Rebecca: Catching that kid who's not actually reading in fourth grade instead of just shoving them onto fifth grade, 6th grade, and they graduate from high school. We have all heard those kind of stories of, like, they're not special ed, they just missed a piece and now they're too embarrassed to tell anybody and they're learning ways to compensate.
Megan: Right, yeah, we know that. Right. Like, once that gap starts, it just grows and grows and grows and grows and grows. And so it really is. Early identification is so important and early.
Rebecca: Identification of a gap.
Megan: Yes.
Rebecca: Not necessarily labeling them as well.
Megan: And once they're on that ladder in student support, if there's a concern, we're gonna catch it. That's the other part, too, is that once they get on that support ladder and start working their way up, if it genuinely is, you know, because the reason why you have student support and special education together in a department is because of how we work together across the department. Right. So that's the piece, too. Sped and student support are always talking.
Rebecca: Making sure that those kids that need.
Megan: The keys get them, always collaborating, especially through that student study team process, where it can be common that special education people will be at a student study team meeting, providing input or different interventions. Right. That maybe weren't thought of because we're bringing that special education perspective. And it's like, hey, let's try a couple more of these little things before, because it is such a significant decision to assess a child for special education.
Rebecca: Okay. So when you are putting the brakes on a parent's request, it's not in. We don't wanna deal with you. Absolutely not. This is a really big decision for your kiddo, and let's make sure it's the right one.
Megan: Absolutely.
Rebecca: Okay, so let's go back. So we've talked about tier one, which are just sort of some of those, like, online programs. You can try and see if you can fill in some gaps. The intervention classes, you've done a couple cycles, and now the teachers are concerned that it's time to move up to tier three, which is what?
Megan: So, between tier two and tier three is where the student study team process starts and what happens during that process.
Rebecca: And the student study team process means evaluating the child for no evaluation.
Megan: So it's not. It's still student support. We're still not to the top of our ladder. Okay. So a student study team process is where a team comes together. So we have our wonderful SST specialist gen Ed parent HSt. Depending upon the concerns, let's say there's social emotional concerns. We might have a social emotional counselor, or if it's a high school student, we might have high school counselors attend. Whatever that kiddo's situation is, the applicable people will be at that meeting. Okay. The purpose of the meeting is to create a specific intervention plan so there's no assessment that happens. It's the team coming together.
Rebecca: Okay, so here's what we know so far.
Megan: Here's what we know so far. Here's the concerns. And it is. It is very specific. So it will have things. It could be more intervention, live classes. It could be maybe switching something up with curriculum. It could be a whole bunch of things. It could be those implemented accommodations that we know are good for all kiddos. And then it's very specific on who's responsible for the data collection, because throughout this whole process, data is everything, okay? Data tells us what a child needs, what they don't need. That's what we look at. We're very analytical when we get to this support ladder and looking at, okay, in an eight week period, what was the level of growth from pre to post test? Right on an SST, let's say we're implementing things at home. We would be looking to the parent or the learning coach to say, like, let's see the data. Like, what do you have? And we, through the SST process, parents are supported with, here's the data form you're going to fill out, and this is how you do it. And what happens is you're then going through another eight weeks of super targeted individualized intervention courses. Interventions.
Rebecca: Okay. And so at that point, you may not be in a class of ten kids anymore.
Megan: No. You might be in a class of one or two if that's the recommendation.
Rebecca: Right.
Megan: Right.
Rebecca: And I do want to back up real quick. You talked about accommodations. I know that often when I'm talking with parents, accommodations is the word that's used primarily when we're talking about testing. You're not talking about that at this point. Right now. We're talking about accommodating their education, their learning environment to match the need that that child shows right then and there.
Megan: Correct. Okay.
Rebecca: So that the word accommodation is not, I think it's less official in this, in what we're talking about than when we're talking about getting as far as testing and that sort of thing.
Megan: Think of it as teaching practices. Right. So it's, how can you support accommodating the curriculum to help your child better access what they're needing to learn?
Rebecca: So you, so again, if a parent is hearing this and thinking, I want to choose, I want to do the curriculum we're doing, or I want to do, or I want this, my child to still be a part of our family learning and those kinds of things you're not talking about. Here's a different book. Use this necessarily you're talking about. Okay, so this is what you're using and these are your learning goals. Here are some ways that you can try reaching your child to help them be included and retain that information and reach, reach up to what it is you're trying to get them.
Megan: And if you think about it in terms of everything we're talking about with support, it all has to do with expanding a child's access to their education. Right? So what we're saying is when we're identifying some learning concerns, it's because it's like, oh, like there's a concern with them. Like they're not able to access this. Right. Whether it be reading or math or writing or social emotional needs. Right. And so what we're, what we do is we say, okay, here's the concerns, right. What are the things we can implement to try and support their access so they can regain that access and it might look different. Right. And that's where we have that toolkit of different things to try. And I think the thing that can be frustrating, I think, is we hear a lot of, like, well, I've already tried, right? Like, and so if I can have parents in HST hear anything, it's like, come at the first sign of a concern. Because what I find is it's usually after it's, we've gone a long time, and it's like, no, now we just want you to do something. And it's like they feel like they're starting over again. Right, when they start the support ladder. And so it's so imperative that the second you are concerned, you reach out for help, okay? Because that's what we're here to do, and that's where we can genuinely help, instead of at the end, where it's like, I'm at my wits end and, you know, I just need something like the IEP or whatever, and it's. And then that frustration sets in when you're sitting in an SST meeting, a student study team meeting, and you're like, well, why are we starting all over again? But for us on that support ladder, we are just starting.
Rebecca: So let me see if I can say that from a parent perspective of. So what you're saying is, while there are parents who are out there battling it out and giving it their all, it is perhaps in the end, better for them to reach out now. And it's okay if they only need help for a little while.
Megan: Absolutely.
Rebecca: But now you've got that sort of on record, or you've got. Whereas if they continue to battle this thing out on their own, they can reach out for help later, but they need to realize that they're gonna have to start a process that might mean repeating some things that they've already done, but now they need to do it in a way that brings in the team.
Megan: Right. Well, and just, I think knowing you're not alone. Yeah. We are here. Like, that is our purpose and drive in our lives to support these kiddos and to support our parents, educating them.
Rebecca: And so you're not saying, if you have battled this out alone and now your kid is in 8th grade, and you're like, oh, no, high school. You're not saying don't come?
Megan: No, I'm saying, please come.
Rebecca: Please come. But the process may take a little time because the team was not there in third grade to see what was happening. And so now you need to see where things have come from and where they're going and what? Get a. Get a technical. I'm running out of words.
Megan: And again, I take it back to that ladder. It's, you know, think of it as, you know, you have that initial concern. Right? You've tried some things. I'm not saying don't try anything, like, please try some things, but just don't let it go.
Rebecca: Okay?
Megan: Right. Like, let's say you've tried some things for two months and you're like, gosh, I'm just not seeing the progress I'm expecting to see. You know, that's when I'd say, okay, get on that ladder. Get your kiddos on that ladder of support. And even if a child has the needs for an IEP, right, like, we want to do that as quickly and as efficiently as possible because of the level of support that an IEP for students who need it provides and the significance of it. Right. Sometimes we have kiddos come and they are in 8th grade or entering high school and we'll hear parents say, I just didn't know what to do. And us as the experts in special education, in 5 seconds of an assessment, sometimes we're like, oh, gosh, how did this baby not ever get identified right in the school system prior? Because it's like, this is a no brainer. And then, you know, you're working against the clock and it's like you're providing support that, that we knew this kiddo needed all along. And we do even have some kiddos where they get on that ladder of support and, you know, special education gets looped in from student support and it's like, hands down, not even a question that this is some of them.
Rebecca: You push the escalator back. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Megan: And so it just. But it's. And that's what makes talking about this so difficult is because it's individualized. Every kid is different. Every scenario is different. Every student need is different.
Rebecca: Some kids only need to go two steps up the ladder and they can veer off and continue on their way. And some kids are going to get the escalator button pushed and they're going to fly up there and. Okay, so I have so many things I could ask you right now. I don't want to go down this rabbit hole very far, but considering our homeschooling audience, I do want to say, doesn't should a parent be afraid that an IP is going to limit what they can do at home?
Megan: No.
Rebecca: Okay, so an IEP is not restrictive. It's.
Megan: An IEP is only restrictive in the sense that. And again, like I said, this makes more sense in a brick and mortar analogy, because if you think about it, a student who qualifies for an IEP has to receive direct services. Right? And again, this is a big rabbit hole. We could do a whole conversation on just what assessment and qualifying for an IEP looks like. But in very fast, quick terms, a student who qualifies for an IEP has very specific needs based on assessment, standardized assessment. An IEP is written to address those very, very, very specific needs. Then services are provided to provide the services that a student needs for those needs. So the restrictiveness comes in the term of, let's say a student has specialized academic instruction. When they're receiving specialized academic instruction, they're not receiving general education instruction. So the state and federal government, in terms it's, they are removed. Right. From their general education setting.
Rebecca: Okay.
Megan: And to receive those services, so in.
Rebecca: A homeschool setting, but one that is tied to the government because we are a public school.
Megan: Yes.
Rebecca: Does that then set the parent free of, like, you don't have to necessarily meet grade level standards. Nobody's expecting your student to do these things they aren't capable of doing.
Megan: So, no.
Rebecca: Okay.
Megan: So I feel like I tell my leadership team this all the time, that I will someday end my career, and I will only say that working within our school setting has stretched my brain and forced me to think outside of the box in ways I never thought was possible because the law and our legal school mandates aren't written for our setting at all. And so it is a constant. I mean, every day, every day I am collaborating with my leadership team on, okay, here's the situation. And again, every kid's needs are different and every story is different, and one size does not fit all. And we are constantly trying to interpret law to make it make sense for our setting. Also, stay legally compliant with the state of California and the federal government and also make sure that our schools, right, are in good standing. And so an IEP does not mean that standards change an IEP. And it depends on the program. Again, I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole of the difference between mild moderate and moderate severe. But the majority of our population of special education students are served in our mild moderate program. Okay? When we write IEP goals, they have to be written at the student's grade level standard. Okay, you want to talk about a skill to learn. That's a skill to learn, right? So let's say you have a 6th grader and they're reading at a third grade level. I still have to write them a 6th grade standard goal even though we all know that they're reading at a third grade level. And that's where the skill of our wonderful case managers comes in, because that's how we have to take the 6th grade goal and say when given a reading passage at the student's instructional level. Right. But the idea is always that even on an IEP, they should be accessing their grade level curriculum and the IEP should be designed to allow their access, okay. To that.
Rebecca: So kind of like access to our school or kind of like being a part of our school gives you access to funds and freedom and all of these wonderful things. It also means that testing is necessary with it, access to our school's sped program gives you access to all kinds of support and great brains behind you to help you support your child, but does still come with some of the expectations that the state applies that may or may not be your family's goals. So you have to work within that.
Megan: System and may or may not be even what we agree with. Like, that's the thing. It can be incredibly challenging. One, to interpret it, two, to interpret it for our setting, and then three, to meet all the requirements, but yet also be true to our homeschool heart and our families and parent choice and things like that. And I think that can be a big shock for families who do come in from brick and mortar with students who already are on an IEP and they're like, wait a second, like, why is this program, like, why is your special ed program not this parent choice? Right? Like, I want this service, but I don't want this service. And that's where the legal stuff comes in. My least favorite part of my job. But that's the thing, is because legal.
Rebecca: Is not focusing on the child, it's focusing on the laws. And so sometimes you want to focus on the child, but you can't ignore.
Megan: And sometimes the hardest thing is when we do have to take a hard line and say no. And it's not because we don't care about our families and we don't care about that student in the situation. But then there's also this obligation to keep our schools open so parents have the choice of school, you know, to come to and we're always on the CDE California Department of Education radar, right? You know, any school like us, that's nonsense.
Rebecca: And Sped's probably an easy target.
Megan: Sped is always an easy target.
Rebecca: Okay?
Megan: Yes, we're always in monitoring and things like that. And so we work really hard to try. And, and I'm very proud of how compliant we run our team, and I'm very proud of my leadership team. And we try. If we can come up with a creative solution. Eva Stockard is our student compliance assistant director, and the idea she can come up with for creative solutions for some of our families are amazing. They're just amazing. I love collaborating with her because we do. We try. We don't want to say no. There are times. Right. And it's always data. You will always hear us say data or we will quote the law. Like, we will give our parents. Like, I'm so, like, our hands are tied in some of these, these situations. And I would say the biggest situation is when parents are like, well, I just really don't want that service anymore. Like, I can't do that, like, once. And that's the thing. Once it's on that IEP, the state mandates we implement it. Okay. And even though we're a parent consent state, it's very, it's not set up to foster collaboration between schools and parents. It just isn't. It's, you know, I could. We could sit and talk about the law, too, for. Well, let's, let's.
Rebecca: I think for time's sake, we have time for kind of two more questions that I want to ask, and some of it you've addressed a little bit. But I, again, another thing I sort of here as a family liaison is families. The families that you're saying, please come to us when you have concerns very possibly have been homeschooling the whole way through. The families that are coming in with ieps from brick and mortar, that's a different ball of wax, because now the IEP has to be reevaluated and how things are going to function for them at home versus school can look really different. So can you just give us just a comment or two on, on kind of a heads up for those families?
Megan: Yeah, absolutely. I would say the biggest misconception is that our special education services are provided in person like they were at the school parents came from, and that's where least restrictive environment comes in again. So because we're a virtual, non seat based homeschool, our least restrictive environment for a student on an IEP to receive services is group virtual services. So.
Rebecca: So that's where they have to start.
Megan: Possibly. It depends. And that's where it's like there is no, and I hope no one, it's.
Rebecca: Very possibly where they'll need to start.
Megan: Yes. I mean, the vast majority of our students who do come? The vast majority of our students overall, are served in a virtual setting here and are very successful. Okay. Very, very successful. And so, just like the student support in that ladder where it's like eight weeks of interventions, six to eight weeks of intervention is the research backed norm for the amount of time that it really takes to see if a student is going to make or not make progress in something. Right? And so you will hear us talk a lot about, we need six to eight weeks of data. And so let's say we have a student. They've been receiving group specialized academic instruction services. They have an IEP, and they really just not are. They're not making the progress we want to see on their yearly IEP goals. And so that's the other part. Specialized academic instruction provides instruction specific to IEP goals. And so it's not. We don't work on Gen Ed curriculum. Like, our whole goal is to work as quickly as possible to fill the learning gaps for our kids so that they can exit an IEP. Like, there is no greater thing in this world. When we reassess a kiddo and it's like, oh, my gosh, they exited, like. And we don't see that often. And it's like, this is. This is. That's what should happen. Like, we did it. Like, it worked. And so let's say they're not progressing. We have six to eight weeks of data we call an IEP meeting. The next step on the sped support ladder would be one to one. So just the student and just the case manager in virtual. And this would be the same thing for speech or occupational therapy or, you know, adaptive PE. For most of our students at our school, they. They do just fine in virtual. However, there are varying levels between whether students do well in group versus, you know, making the progress. And we even have some students that they do really well in reading in a group setting, but they really were struggling in making progress in math. And so they might have group for reading, but one to one virtual for math. Right? Okay, so let's say they're not doing well in one to one, then that's when you look at that next kind of step up and you just. It kind of just keeps following that process. Very. A very select population of our school. Some of them do receive in person services. I would say that that is our most impacted students on campus, students who are nonverbal, students who have significant behavior concerns. Those are really our kiddos. Maybe we have a handful of maybe ten kiddos who might have in person, specialized academic instruction. So it's very rare in our setting.
Rebecca: So that leads me to my second question I was going to ask you is talk about virtual services. Are they effective? And I'm hearing you say yes.
Megan: I mean, on a legal basis, we wouldn't have so many kids attending virtual if it wasn't because we have an obligation. Right. Even if a student does not, like, let's say this isn't the right setting for them, let's say that they really just, they're on an IEP and they really are not making adequate progress. We have a legal obligation to make an offer of a school setting that we feel they can make progress in.
Rebecca: In other words, make a suggestion of, you might want to switch schools. Is that what you mean?
Megan: Not so much a suggestion as we would, we would have to say that based on this data, you know, now, you guys, this never, this is not a common thing. So I don't want to freak anyone out, but just so you kind of know, like, if the homeschool setting, and we have had that before, where students just really, really, really struggle, and when we make an offer of FAPE, another acronym, free and appropriate public education, which is our service, you know what, we kind of identify a kiddo needs in order to progress. Sometimes that offer could be a seat based school or a non public school. That's usually the most common. Or a residential treatment center for kiddos who have significant social jokes. Like, we're talking.
Rebecca: We're talking, right?
Megan: Yes. Right. But just so you kind of know, that whole, that whole obligation of the school. But again, we have over 500 kids who qualify for ieps, and I would say that maybe 5% of them have in person services. Like, they progress, especially in specialized academic instruction. We see amazing progress and success.
Rebecca: So one thing I would be remiss not asking before we leave is do talk real quick about the difference between IEP and a 504.
Megan: Oh, yes.
Rebecca: That's a really important. Because those are also terms that get thrown around. Yes. And I honestly don't, I know that 504 means it's not as severe as an IEP.
Megan: So we often, this is that we'll often get emails of parents from parents or homeschool teachers where they're like, so we would like a 504 and an IEP. I'm like, that doesn't exist. That's not a thing. So 504 ieps are very, they can be very black and white. Like the law is very clear on. Yes, no. What can happen? What can't happen? School's legal responsibility for implementation. The gray part is because of our school setting. Right. So when I say I'm constantly interpreting law, it's because it's not written for us. 504 is gray. 504 is very gray. But 504 is absolutely on a whole nother realm of special education. It's not special education. That's why it's housed under student support.
Rebecca: Okay, so it's not through the gate. No, it's on the ladder.
Megan: It is. It's on the ladder, but, like, a different spectrum of the ladder. Okay. And again, we could. I could literally talk to you on a whole podcast about 504. So 504 is more. It has to impede a life activity. So let's say you have a kid who broke their arm. They could technically qualify for a temporary 504 because it is impeding their ability to write, and they need special accommodations for the duration of their broken arm in order to access their education.
Rebecca: So a kid that got cancer.
Megan: Yes.
Rebecca: Could end up. Could use a 504 for a time. Or.
Megan: Okay. A kid who has significant anxiety, ADHd. Okay.
Rebecca: Or maybe somebody who is a third grader reading in a first grade level. And is that the kind of thing that could be a 504 because it could be something that you get back up to? Um, not necessarily.
Megan: Not necessarily. It's very much a. Always think of it in.
Rebecca: It's a little more concrete, isn't it?
Megan: It's more medically like, it's more. Okay, like, in the medical world, which is what muddies the water, because, like, sped is the polar opposite. Right. So, like, a lot of times, kiddos will come to us with medical based diagnosis of, like, autism. That doesn't mean they'll qualify for an IEP. Right? Okay, but let's say you have a high functioning student with autism. They don't qualify for an IEP because it's not impeding their education progress, but it is behaviorally. They might have a 504 for behavior accommodations, but there's a whole process on 504 similar to an IEP. They're just completely opposite spectrums. And like you said, they always get lumped together and they shouldn't.
Rebecca: Okay, so get the kid on the ladder.
Megan: Get the kid on the ladder, and we will let you know which. Where to go.
Rebecca: Direction.
Megan: Up, down. Okay. Which way?
Rebecca: Okay.
Megan: Yes. Yes.
Rebecca: So much more to talk about, but I think we better stop.
Megan: Thank you so much.
Rebecca: I know.
Megan: I literally. I'm so passionate about it, and it's so hard. It's so convoluted and.
Rebecca: But I know I mean, I walked into this interview not knowing how it was gonna go because I just didn't even totally understand what we were gonna be talking about. So I know I feel way more educated about this. And I will sit through. And as I edit and relisten, I will gather all of the questions that this brings up for me.
Megan: Yeah, well, and just know we are working so hard this year on parent education, education for our homeschool teachers, adding information to our enrollment process for our families so that there are no surprises. Right. They're fully aware, if they do have students on an IEP, what it looks like to come here. And so just know that that's. We are. This is our education year. We needed the first year and the second year just to get everything running smoothly. And this year we are really, really focusing on parent and general education, teacher education. And so we have a lot of great, wonderful things rolling out.
Rebecca: And you told me at the beginning that you're working on your PhD. And what was it called again?
Megan: Oh, yes, I'm working on my PhD and I'm actually focusing on. My whole topic is about how to decrease special education assessment requests.
Rebecca: And again, and not because you don't want to help kids.
Megan: Not because I don't want to help kids, but it is out of control all over. I mean, it's a nationwide thing that really is out of control. And we want to help kids. We just want to do it in the right way.
Rebecca: So you want parents to have a better understanding of what is when is a kid in need of sped?
Megan: Yes. Well, and there's so much misinformation out there. I want our parents to feel like they can come to any of us at any time and know that we are your biggest advocates of the right information, right, of how to interpret the law, of what it means, of understanding. When sometimes we might not agree. Right. We might be at an impasse. And it's not because we don't care about our families. It's this constant ebb and flow and give and take on both sides. And there's nothing that would give me greater joy in life than to know that we've created something that empowers our parents and empowers our staff and sets us apart from other schools that are, you know, in knowing that not only do kids get what they need for support here, but our staff and our parents are well educated. And I always tell parents, like, the IEP should be written, and if it's done right, you can go to any school and anyone reading it will know everything they need to know about your child. And I want parents to genuinely understand what every page of that IEP is, what it means, and just be empowered in being able to make informed decisions for your children. That is really what I want and what I hope comes from the things we have coming out this year and next year for our families.
Rebecca: So Megan, thank you so much for being here today.
Megan: Thank you.
Rebecca: I know you have a lot on your plate at the moment and so I really appreciate you carving out the time to be here and to help us untangle and understand this subject better. And I know I am walking away with a much better understanding. So thank you very much.
Megan: Thank you so much for giving me the platform. And yeah, I love being able to talk about it. So I appreciate you parents.
Rebecca: I hope that you have found this episode helpful and equipping and that you have a better understanding of what the special ed and student support programs at Sequoia Grove are here to help you be able to accomplish with your kiddos. I hope that you are inspired to reach out if you think your student might need some help or some support, and I hope that this might help calm some fears or concerns that you have. And as always, please reach out. If you continue to have more questions, you can always email infoquoiagrove.org with any question. It will get directed to the right department. You can also email special education@sequoiagrove.org and that department will help answer your questions. Thank you for joining us today on the Sequoia Breeze podcast. I hope that it's been a breath of fresh air for your homeschool and that you feel encouraged and supported. We want to help you along on your homeschool journey. You are not alone. Please drop me a line@podcastsuquiagrove.org and please don't forget to like subscribe and review.