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Women and girls often face the highest level of stigma of people living with HIV. In this episode, host Gabriella Spencer gathers with a panel to discuss how we can better support and advocate for women and girls living with HIV.
Every episode of Real Talk with NMAC provides people of color, allies, and advocates in the community — regardless of gender, sexual orientation, or gender identity — who are at greater risk of HIV/AIDS with a greater understanding of the role racial inequities play in the epidemic, and how to address them.
NMAC (The National Minority AIDS Council) leads with race to normalize discussion about race within the HIV movement, bend the curve of new HIV diagnoses, and retain people of color living with HIV in care. Listeners will receive tools to advocate for better policies to care for people living with HIV — and to end the epidemic — and learn about the services NMAC offers to empower our community to achieve these goals.
This show is for everyone of color living with or at risk of HIV/AIDS, the allies who fight alongside them, and advocates who represent for us at all levels of power. Listen now and become part of our community of advocates who champion our issues and the issues of those living in communities most affected by HIV.
Learn more at NMAC.org and join our communities on Facebook and Instagram.
Gabriella Spencer (00:10):
Hi, everyone. I would like to welcome you to this week's episode of NMAC real talk. This is Gabriella Spencer, the Program Associate Manager here at NMAC. And I am joined today with some lovely panelists. I'll allow them to introduce themselves right now. So Esther, would you like to introduce yourself?
Esther Ross (00:32):
Okay. My name is Esther Ross. I live in Greenville, North Carolina. My roots is South Carolina, North Carolina, New York. I am currently working with NMAC in the 50+ program and other initiatives. I consider myself an advocate, activist for anything dealing with women and HIV just to increase awareness. I also run a nonprofit that's been around for about 26 years. It's called Circle of Friends, and we provide all kind of different resources to people living with HIV and including their family and support.
Gabriella Spencer (01:28):
Thank you so much, Esther. Keiva, can you introduce yourself please?
Keiva Lei Cadena (01:32):
Sure. Aloha. My name's Keiva Lei Cadena. I'm coming to you all the way from the big island of Hawaii where I'm the director of harm reduction services at Kumukahi Health and Wellness. I'm a native Hawaiian transgender woman. I've been living with HIV since 2004. I serve on the Positively Trans National Advisory Board. I'm certified as a trainer for the Positive Women's Network and I also I'm a member of the National Native HIV Network. So I stay busy, but really happy to do this work and really grateful to be a part of this panel with all of these beautiful women. Thanks for having me.
Gabriella Spencer (02:18):
Thank you so much, Keiva. Danielle.
Danielle Miguel (02:20):
Hi, I am Danielle Miguel. I'm coming out of the Bay Area in California. I work with NMAC through the Asian and youth communities. So I'm part of their constituent advisory panels there, and I've been working in HIV work for the last about four years doing mostly sexual health education but also working with patients and community members to de-stigmatize it.
Gabriella Spencer (02:49):
Thank you, Danielle. Farah.
Farah Jeune (02:51):
Hi everyone. My name is Farah Jeune and I am a multimedia artist from Boston. I like to consider myself a growing artist and I use my creativity to help my peers, elders and ancestors feel empowered, represented and loved. I mostly do illustration but I'm also a community television producer and I use both of those platforms to tell stories. I've been really proud to be part of NMAC family previously as a youth scholar for the NMAC Youth Initiative. And now this year I get to be the lead champion for the NMAC Youth Initiative. So I'm really happy to also be here with all these beautiful women.
Gabriella Spencer (03:31):
Thank you so much, Farah. So I am joined today with these lovely panelists and we're going to talk a little bit about National Women and Girls HIV Awareness Day. And I want to just give a brief history about what the purpose of that day is. It is a day to raise awareness about the impact of HIV on women and show support for women and girls with HIV. So these panelists, I'm going to ask them a couple of questions and we're just going to figure out what we can do for the community and how we can help out. And so I'll start with an icebreaker question and I will start with what woman inspires you the most. Danielle, would you like to tackle this question?
Danielle Miguel (04:11):
Yeah. I actually get asked this question a lot surprisingly, and my answer is usually always the same. Honestly, I would say that my best friend. I've known her since we were about six years old. And even as like we grew up, I've noticed that a lot of the qualities that I admire I've picked up from her. A lot of the strong willingness, stubbornness, assertiveness. I think that's the type of quality that I've picked up from her, but also really love looking towards, especially because it radiates to the people around us. Many of our girlfriends pretty much pick up from that. It's really inspiring in the sense that it not only feels empowering but also feels very natural too.
Gabriella Spencer (05:01):
Wow. That is a really great answer. Thank you, Danielle. Farah, would you like to tackle this question?
Farah Jeune (05:07):
Sure. That was beautiful, Danielle. I would like to say the woman I look up to the most is my mom. I admire so much about her, especially now as I'm becoming more growing into my adulthood. I admire her strength and especially how she shows up in the world when she's not feeling her best. And then also just women that I've met along during my life that have always empowered me and always challenged me to take on risks and not be afraid to speak up even if I felt afraid to. So yeah, I would just say my mom and the community of women that I've met along the way.
Gabriella Spencer (05:42):
I definitely agree with that. Taking risk and not being able to speak up, that is something that I'm definitely working on right now. Esther, what women inspires you the most?
Esther Ross (05:52):
Well, there are so many women that has inspired me over the course of my life. I'll be 61 years old April 22nd, but I always say the one that really helped me at my lowest point when I was diagnosed with HIV and told that I would be dead in six months was Angela Davis. This was the quote when I was considering disclosing and getting into this work. Someone shared this quote with me and I've always used it. And the quote is, "I think the importance of doing activist work is precisely because it allows you to give back and to consider yourself not as a single individual who may have achieved whatever, but to be a part of an ongoing historical movement."
Esther Ross (06:53):
And I feel that I'm part of this work because I am a woman living with HIV, and it's not over. It will continue work to be done, and she inspires me every day to keep going despite any challenge I may face. I think about that and realize that I'm not doing this just for myself. It's for the other women standing with me and for those all to come.
Gabriella Spencer (07:24):
Thank you, Esther. It is important that we are not alone in this and it is for other people and those to come. I really like that. Keiva.
Keiva Lei Cadena (07:33):
Sure. I like the way that you worded the question, what women inspires me the most, because just like Esther said, there are so many, especially doing this work in advocacy and social justice and community providing community support and navigation. It's really difficult just to choose one particular person. I've been in this field of work over the last 12 years and I found so many qualities in so many different women that I try to emulate and that I use as motivation and as a guideline and as a recipe for my own efforts.
Keiva Lei Cadena (08:19):
People like Cecilia Chung and Valerie Spencer who unapologetically stand in their convictions and really pave a way for others to be able to stand up fearlessly and fight for the things that we believe are right. People like Barb Cardell and Nana Cana. There's just so many. And then people like my own mother who had to fight adversity and experience divorce and heartbreak and abuse. And at 71 years old, she's paved a way for herself and she made the path herself and I'm really proud of the woman that she is and I hope to be... Just even a fraction of her strength would be something that I would hold a lot of pride to know that I have.
Gabriella Spencer (09:14):
Thank you, Keiva. That was really powerful. Thank you for noticing the intentionality, because when I worded the question, I was like, I can't think of a singular woman too. Like it's so many women that have inspired me to be where I am. So thank you so much for noticing that. So we're going to start off with, how can we better serve your community? Farah, how can we better serve your community?
Farah Jeune (09:38):
Yeah, I think that's a really great question. I think one of the things I've learned, especially like in my work in advocacy and as I'm growing and I'm learning a lot more is to kind of just use your gifts to empower your community. Because I remember when I first got started in HIV advocacy work, I didn't study public health in school. I didn't know much about HIV and STDs and all that. I actually got into the work kind of by meeting this woman in an art class because I'm an artist by trade and she told me she had an organization here in Boston called ABCD Services, and she had a social media campaign called Sister2Sister. And they basically was trying to educate young women, particularly Black and Latinx women and girls here in Boston about HIV prevention and STDs.
Farah Jeune (10:28):
I didn't know much about it and I remember feeling like a lot of imposter syndrome because I was like, "Oh, I don't like public speaking. I don't really know a lot about this." But I remember her just really encouraging me to kind of use my own skills to get the message out. And I was like, "All right, I might not be comfortable doing public speaking, but I like to draw, I like to make videos, I know social media. I could use some of those skills to get the word out, encourage people to go get tested or get connected to resources that they need to keep them thriving." And that's basically what I've learned.
Farah Jeune (10:58):
I would say the best way for you to connect your community and get them activated is to use your own skills. Don't be afraid to learn and to ask for help. Also like give other people their flowers, because I know when I first went to the NMAC, USCHA, I think I said it right, I remember just being overwhelmed because there were so many great leaders I was meeting from the nation that had been doing this work for years before I was born. I remember just feeling so inspired by them. So like giving them their flowers and also learning from what they've been through and how I could put some of their wisdom and some of their work into my own work I think really inspires me to get the message out.
Gabriella Spencer (11:39):
Thank you, Farah. That was really great. I really liked how you played on your strengths. You noticed that you're not... You're great at public speaking now, but you have said you weren't great at public speaking but you're very creative. So you use your creativity to better serve your community. I really like that. Esther, would you like to tackle the question?
Esther Ross (11:57):
I really appreciate Farah's response because I myself, I wasn't a great speaker and a lot of the skills that I have now or aspire to be is because of a social worker that saw the intersectionality that I was involved with; drugs, mental wellness, verbal and domestic violence, intimate partner violence, all these different internationalities. I was overwhelmed. She helped me like address each one. But the first one she did was she sent me to get educated because I couldn't fight something I didn't know about. I think that's one of the things that is still so powerful on what we can do better in the community is to continue to share the information that we have, but also recognize that they are champions and leaders in each one of us. And when you recognize the gift in yourself, I think it makes you recognize the gifts in others.
Esther Ross (13:26):
And then do you have some sustainable interventions that help a community thrive and assess their resources. So that's one of the things that we can do better is to listen to the community, impart information to them which is so powerful, and recognize that everyone is valuable. I don't care whose voice, what your gift is. It could be art, it could be writing letters, it could be speaking, it could be anything. But it takes more than one person. It takes a village to really change this atmosphere so that we can make sure that women all over the world, no matter where they at, are influencing other women so that we can stop HIV in our communities.
Esther Ross (14:29):
I mean, that is one of the things, and then understanding the community. I could talk all day about that, but it's so important to do that, just to get in, ask them questions, become part of them and not leave them when the funding is over with. You still have a responsibility to give that community information so that they can pass that on to future leaders.
Gabriella Spencer (15:01):
Thank you, Esther. Keiva, would you like to tackle the question?
Keiva Lei Cadena (15:05):
I would love to. It's hard to follow those two amazing answers. I was actually taking notes as Farah and Esther were speaking because so much of what they were saying was resonating within me on this question. I like how the both of them talked about focusing on a person's talents and skills, focusing on the strengths that others bring to the table, because we are an amazingly diverse community, an amazingly diverse community of women, CIS and trans, but then an amazingly diverse community of people living with HIV as well.
Keiva Lei Cadena (15:49):
I think that working on the front lines for so many years providing navigation for people that are newly diagnosed with the virus has really shown me one particular important thing, and that is that the majority of women, CIS or trans, that have been diagnosed with HIV have experienced a significant amount of trauma which had led to their exposure and to their diagnosis. When we take that trauma, if we learn how to cultivate strength from those experiences, if we learn how to hone in the strengths and the power that we have gained from experiencing those and walking through it and building our own strength and finding our own power and acceptance in those experiences, there's amazing things that we can accomplish sitting at these advocacy and social justice tables.
Keiva Lei Cadena (16:50):
And that's something that I think that oftentimes we fail to see. Sometimes I think that we all too often see the trauma and try to protect each other from it, which is natural. We just want to make sure that everybody's safe and good and happy and okay. But I think that we need to find ways to build on the lived experiences of so many CIS and trans women that come into these spaces and help them to cultivate what power that they have through their lived experiences. And seeing those, what have many considered liabilities, as a unique asset to create change from the outside sources that we have to depend on; funders, pharmaceutical companies, legislation, our political representatives. Use those strengths and talents in order to create change in those spaces.
Keiva Lei Cadena (17:52):
What I see that creates the most passion in people that do this work is those lived experiences. But sometimes I think we don't understand that those lived experiences comes with a lot of stuff and we don't do enough to make sure that we are caring for the stuff in order to build those powers and those strengths and those skills. So that's what I would like to see from places like NMAC and other HIV resources as we build leaders in this work.
Gabriella Spencer (18:28):
Thank you, Keiva. Danielle.
Danielle Miguel (18:31):
Yeah. I have reflected on all the wonderful things that my fellow panelists have said, and I'm really appreciative of the emphasis on the value of every individual here, especially throughout everybody's responses. I think the biggest thing that I would want to see, at least on a wide scale community effort, would be utilizing more space and resources to kind of nurture mentorship. And that can look like so many different things depending on what the needs are, what communities kind of like reflect on the mission.
Danielle Miguel (19:07):
And then on top of that, just thinking about how to better nurture what talents everybody mentioned for each individual because I know sometimes, like for example with myself, I would rather be hands on and directly working with patients and community members, whether it's educating or providing medical services or working on harm reduction. But some people, they like to utilize their skills in terms of just being able to connect folks to resources or even just like working on a policy level. So I think really providing space for mentorship could pretty much support all of that, especially in terms of not burning out, being able to kind of like compliment each other on a level of community but also on a level of moving the work forward, especially for the generations to come.
Gabriella Spencer (19:57):
Thank you so much, Danielle. My next question is about stigma, but I want to give a brief statistic before I go into the question. In 2018, the CDC stated that women experienced higher HIV stigma than people overall. So with that in mind, how do you think we can reduce stigma in your community? Esther, would you like to begin?
Esther Ross (20:20):
It's not going to be a one-size-fit-all. I'm finding out that there's so many different levels of stigma, and I'm just realizing that there's internal stigma, there's systemic stigma. The way that I would like to reduce it is building on what everyone mentioned about their own personal wealth and resources and support. The Circle of Friends had developed a mentorship program called Leaders, Advocating, Mentoring, Personal growth & Support. And it was really for women who were HIV 50 and older who thought their life was over with. They really didn't feel, they felt left out. And these were transgender women and cisgendered women, and they felt left out. Some of them were long-term survivors. Some of them were born with HIV and happened to be living a long time, over 20 years with the virus. And they felt that they didn't have anything to give back.
Esther Ross (21:45):
Just them by learning different information and getting educating and that willingness, they were able to mentor each other and recognize their own strength. And I think the only way we can reduce stigma is getting everyone involved. This is not just myself living with HIV. It's also the doctor, it's also the person that works in the hair salon, because HIV doesn't discriminate and that's one way we can reduce it in our community is make it very plain that this virus does not discriminate and you can get it, but you can live with it and that's the only way that we can reduce the fear, because that's where stigma comes from is from the fear.
Esther Ross (22:45):
I didn't want to keep going on, but it's so many different things. There's intersectionality and all these different things. There's so many systems in place that really promote stigma, like especially how HIV was perceived in the beginning of this epidemic. We are still dealing with that. People thinking it's a gay white man's disease and it's not. Anyone can get it. I think we have to continue to put that message out in the community until they can accept it. And when it gets normalized, that's when we could really put some effort behind reducing stigma in our community.
Gabriella Spencer (23:38):
Thank you, Esther. Keiva.
Keiva Lei Cadena (23:39):
I'll try to keep it brief because I know we're running short on time, but I think Esther said it perfectly. It's about normalizing it. When you're thinking of internalized or systemic or societal stigmas, all of that is all learned. It's all learned from the things that we have seen or experienced in the community, on TV, in conversations with our circles, with our families. And so really normalizing HIV starting from the top in legislation, normalizing HIV in healthcare, normalizing HIV in the school systems where people can get educated and awareness is there, normalizing HIV in everyday family conversation, and normalizing HIV in sexual health settings.
Keiva Lei Cadena (24:30):
Now, when we're doing that, stigma's not going to go away overnight. But I think that people living with HIV are going to be able to see more and more that there is opportunities to become empowered by these avenues of sending out the message of what HIV really is today in 2022. And when we normalizing it in healthcare and in the school system, people that are not living with HIV, that may have never been affected by the virus yet have opportunities to learn about the virus, to have comfortable conversations, to ask questions in community spaces. That's really the key.
Keiva Lei Cadena (25:10):
And we're on our way. I always get excited when I see commercials about things like Biktarvy or PrEP on TV. We didn't see that 10 years ago. I always get excited when I see parents talking about HIV to their children, or I know that people that are not part of the LGBTQ community are going in and addressing HIV testing with their primary care providers. Like these are all ways that we're slowly and gradually getting to a sense of normalizing this 40 year old conversation. It's about that time that we do that.
Gabriella Spencer (25:46):
Thank so Keiva. Danielle and Farah, I actually want to change the question and ask you all about allyship. So why is allyship important to ending the epidemic and what does allyship look like to you. Danielle, would you like to start?
Danielle Miguel (26:01):
Yeah, sure. Allyship is really, really important in my opinion, especially because oftentimes I feel like it starts with a lot of education being needed to be addressed on the end of not only advocacy but also in terms of just like being present with the movement. And in terms of how it looks like, I feel like it can take all forms, whether it's sharing resources online, whether it's being there for a loved one who might be living with HIV, or even just being there to really learn.
Danielle Miguel (26:44):
I think it's really significant to invest in developing more allyship with certain communities and identities just because going back to the previous question around stigma, I think it becomes difficult to navigate conversations and it kind of gets overbearing for certain folks if they're speaking on behalf of particular experiences. I think that in terms of just fostering what allyship looks like, it could continuously grow as well.
Danielle Miguel (27:14):
In the previous years, I feel like my work with youth has particularly been a good reflection of that just because young people are always learning and the introduction of HIV and AIDS conversations in their sexual health education courses through the cases that I've worked with has helped a lot. I find a lot of teenagers who are interested in doing more HIV work. They ask questions about why it's not talked about enough. They get excited when they see it in particular shows. And it's really nice to see people start to invest themselves in particular causes just because it's out of that pure sense of community and like the interest to end the epidemic. So that's where I'm at in terms of that question.
Gabriella Spencer (28:04):
Thank you, Danielle. Farah.
Farah Jeune (28:05):
Yeah. I think Danielle did a beautiful job of explaining what allyship could look like and what it's looked like for her. I would definitely agree. I think allyship, it could be seen in so many ways, it could be done in so many ways, but I feel like what I've learned through the years is like allyship is also recognizing your privilege. I know that like I have privilege as a cisgendered black woman who's heterosexual. Being in rooms that I never thought I would be in at like conferences learning more about the HIV movement, learning more about how I could de-stigmatize things, learning how I could have conversations, how to use people first language.
Farah Jeune (28:47):
All of that I feel like has been a really good opportunity for me to enhance my intellect, but also to know how can I use my privilege to help others and to help others like be more educated or connect people to resources and tools that they may need. And I feel like I've learned from the people I've met. I think, to be honest, I'm inspired to be in this panel discussion now learning from all these beautiful women and all the work that they've done, but also in other spaces where I don't know... I didn't know that HIV was not just something that was like a biomedical issue. I didn't know that it also affects homelessness, it affects social justice. It's like so many layers attached to it.
Farah Jeune (29:31):
So I feel like as an ally, I've been able to learn a lot more and also just not being afraid to ask questions if I didn't understand something. So I think it could be done in a lot of different ways, but I think one of the most things you should do is definitely recognize your privilege, recognize when to speak and when to just listen. I think that's another thing that people should also learn. And also just be there. I think, like just what Danielle was saying previously about stigma, I think that's how we could really end stigma is by getting more allyship and getting more people involved. So that way it could really strengthen our humanity.
Farah Jeune (30:06):
I think it strengthens our humanity when we're able to have empathy for others. Just because I'm not a woman living with HIV doesn't mean that I shouldn't care for my fellow sister or brother who is. So I think allyship could be done in many different ways and I think it's extremely important for us to grow and to thrive and to hopefully help more people around the world who are living with HIV or impacted by it.
Gabriella Spencer (30:35):
Thank you, Farah. And my final question will go to everyone. And so the final question is, what advice would you give to women in the HIV movement and how do you encourage other women to join the movement in your community? I know this is a two part question. Keiva, I'm going to start with you.
Keiva Lei Cadena (30:52):
I encourage women to stand strong in their convictions. I think to me, there's nothing more beautiful in a woman than to seeing her warrior come out. I think for so many generations, women, whether CIS or trans, have been silenced, especially in the world of HIV. When you look at the leadership today of community advocates and activists and providers, there are so many and powerful women that they create the change, they cultivate new leadership, they change the minds of people that have been adversaries in this work. And I just think that it's really, really important to not be swayed. Follow your heart and follow your passion. Know what you believe in and know the path that you need to get on to accomplish those goals.
Keiva Lei Cadena (32:01):
I know it sounds like very kind of cliche, but like I said, there's nothing stronger than a warrior woman. CIS and trans both have had a lot of hardships around HIV advocacy and seeking services that have been made for us or made by us, to seek intervention models and care models that have been made for us and by us. And it's about that time that we start to take on those roles of leadership to help cultivate services, programs, initiatives that are focused on empowering and the betterment of CIS and transgender women.
Gabriella Spencer (32:50):
Thank you, Keiva. Danielle
Danielle Miguel (32:52):
I've thought really long and hard about this. It's either between the cliche you're not alone just because for me, wherever any woman is at, whether they're learning about HIV, whether they're newly diagnosed, the type of work that they do, they're always going to have people there who are experiencing similar situations. I think that helps with pretty much addressing like stigma, like there's a growing process, you're not learning things or growing or experiencing things alone just because of that.
Danielle Miguel (33:28):
And the other thing that I thought about was you're powerful, especially contributing to the movement. If you're interested, if you're curious, and if you're willing to take the next step, stepping into contributing to the work, especially contributing to the generations efforts that came before us, I think that whatever assets you have as an individual will play into that. On top of that, it's not going to go to waste. It's always going to contribute to something, whether it's mentoring the next generation, whether it's bringing care to an individual, or even just like passing along information and kind of like recruiting more folks for the movement. I think that's two valuable pieces of information that I would want to say to people who are interested or new to the topic of HIV and the movements that are addressing it. So that's where I'm at there.
Gabriella Spencer (34:27):
Thank you, Danielle. Esther.
Esther Ross (34:29):
I really appreciate everyone. Never underestimate the power of a woman. And just like that was shared on almost by everyone on this panel, it's like we can't do it alone. So I need a cheerleader. I need a support system. That's one of the things that I would... The advice I would give women on this that choose to go this route and in the movement or HIV movement, whether you're HIV positive or HIV negative, never underestimate what you have, the power you have to change things, to change stigma, to change and get resources in your community. Never underestimate that. And to make sure self-care is so important because you can get burnt out. You can get burnt out and then you can encourage someone to get involved in this movement and they don't have the support systems set up to take care of themselves.
Esther Ross (35:44):
So that's one advice I would give, and always a commitment to ongoing learning. Learn about myself, learn about this movement, just continue to learn and then share the information that you learn with someone else. And I think that is one of the ways that we can encourage which has worked for me that I've encouraged women to get involved with this movement. And it's not only women who have HIV, it's women that are leaders in their community. And when we support one another, we let that power shine and we become a force to work with.
Esther Ross (36:36):
One of the things we were dubbed... Some five women from North Carolina, we were dubbed the We Team of the East, Women Empowerment, Girls on Fire. When we went to the legislators, they dubbed us Girls on Fire because we got information from the community and took it straight to our senators, anybody that would listen to get some things changed in our community. And that's what I would leave with is ongoing learning, self-care, and make sure you have a good support system.
Gabriella Spencer (37:17):
Thank you, Esther. Farah.
Farah Jeune (37:19):
Wow. That's really hard to follow up with all these queens. They all shared amazing, amazing advice and wisdom. And I would echo everything that they said. I agree 1000000%. I agree a lot with what Esther just said of just making sure that you're pouring love into yourself. I know that people could get burned out, especially in the public health field, in doing this kind of work. So making sure that you're taking care of yourself. That doesn't mean that you have to buy material things necessarily to take care of yourself. Self-love could be you taking a break, self-love could be you getting tested, self-love could be so many different things as long as you're protecting your peace. And I think once you're able to do that, you're able to take care of your community and care for your sisters and your brothers.
Farah Jeune (38:04):
And also, I just want to say, to make sure that you know you are valuable and that you're needed in this movement. I remember, like again, I said earlier of like having imposter syndrome and feeling like I don't know what my place would be, but everyone has a voice, everyone has a purpose. And even if you don't know what your purpose is, you have one and it's important and it's needed. We need allies in this movement, we need people who actually genuinely care and want to make a difference. So I would just say that know that you have greatness in your DNA and don't be afraid to go find it and connect with other people. If you don't have supporters within your space, you could always find supporters. You could always reach out to NMAC or all these beautiful panelists. Just know that like how Danielle was saying earlier, you're never alone.
Gabriella Spencer (38:53):
Thank you, Farah, and thank you to all of my panelists. This was truly a beautiful discussion. I could not have imagined it going any better than this, like you all really showed up and showed out. I do want to note that this is just one of many discussions because we can't get everyone in the room, unfortunately, but we're going to go to every room. This year we are launching GLOW, our women's program. It's Growing Leadership Opportunities for Women. And the theme for this year is we glow when we listen. So we're going to have multiple listening sessions throughout this year so we can hear from the community and make sure that every voice is heard. So thank you all for joining and thank you to my panelists. This was really great, and I hope you all have a great evening.