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TBPN is a live tech talk show hosted by John Coogan and Jordi Hays, streaming weekdays from 11–2 PT on X and YouTube, with full episodes posted to Spotify immediately after airing.
Described by The New York Times as “Silicon Valley’s newest obsession,” TBPN has interviewed Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Mark Cuban, and Satya Nadella. Diet TBPN delivers the best moments from each episode in under 30 minutes.
From Moltboss.
Speaker 2:Of the hour.
Speaker 1:How are you doing? Thank you so much for staying up late. What time is it for you?
Speaker 3:It's eleven.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:PM for everybody that's
Speaker 1:just Yes.
Speaker 3:11PM.
Speaker 2:11PM.
Speaker 1:So I'd love to kick it off with just a brief background on when you started this project, a little bit of your career, how you're thinking about it going forward. And then I This
Speaker 2:was your very first project ever, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. First time coding, right?
Speaker 2:No. We were we were enjoying we were enjoying a a screenshot of your your GitHub profile earlier and just seeing,
Speaker 1:like Yeah.
Speaker 2:How many how many different things An
Speaker 1:overnight success.
Speaker 2:A true overnight success. Yes. But we're super excited to have you here.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I'm excited to be here as well. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I I worked for my own software company for thirteen years. Mhmm. And then I I sold it about four years ago. Then I was completely burned out.
Speaker 3:I did like I mean, it's it's TV, but still blackjack and hookers. Mhmm. Blackjack.
Speaker 2:Wild. Well, we're glad we're glad you're back in the game.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. You know you know that what they say, like, for every four years, it seems like one year break, and I did, like, thirteen years nonstop. So, like, three years, the mask kinda checks out.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:And then this year no. I mean, last year, not 2016. In April, at some point, I my Spark was back. Yeah. Because before, I was, like,
Speaker 1:I was sitting on my computer. And I don't know if you've
Speaker 3:seen Austin Powers, but it it it felt like someone sucked my out. Sure. But, yeah, I I had time to to recover. I came back in April, and I wanted to do something new. My background was, like, a lot of Apple and iOS, and I'm a little bit fed up.
Speaker 3:I I wanted I wanted I wanted to build that stuff, and I didn't have the experience. I didn't wanna feel like an idiot. So I looked into AI, and it was good. It was not great, but it was good. And I was like, why is nobody talking about it?
Speaker 3:You know? And I feel like because I missed those three years where it was really bad, And I came back just at the time that the like, Clock Code was released, what, February in beta. Yeah. So this was my first experience. I was like, this is this is pretty awesome.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. And then and then I couldn't I sleep anymore. Like, I literally had trouble. I had trouble going to bed. You know, like, we had, like, addiction before, and then, like, we had addiction again.
Speaker 2:But a but a positive one.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, yeah, I would say so. And I I hooked up a lot of my friends for looking into it as well. And they had the same problem, and I texted them at, like, 4AM, and they replied. I even I even started a a meetup.
Speaker 3:That's where I come from. I call it I call it Cloud Code Anonymous. Now it's called Anonymous because you have to go with the times.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:And and, yeah, ever since then, I that's what I see on my profile. I came back from retirement to mess with AI. Yeah. And I'm having loads of fun.
Speaker 2:That's great. I love it. We Frank, maybe maybe walk us through some of the other stuff that you shipped and and worked on prior to this and and and even just kind of, like, your mindset working on these different projects. I'm I'm assuming at different points you would think that some would get more traction than others. But it would probably be impossible to have predicted in some ways that this would have gone from almost to the point.
Speaker 2:The reason that this is so wild is I'm seeing people on Instagram that like I don't think of as people that like follow tech at all and they're at the Apple store getting a Mac mini. So it feels like it just went almost it broke containment like incredibly quickly and you see the GitHub stars are like actually, I've never seen a chart like this. Every you know,
Speaker 3:the last straight up line.
Speaker 2:The last you know, every everybody loves to show their charts, but the chart is actually unbelievable. It's just a line going straight up.
Speaker 3:I I I need to talk to someone at GitHub because I I don't think there's been a project before that that's been, like, straight. It is it is it is batshit insane. Yeah. I mean, honestly, my main mantra is I wanna have fun. You know?
Speaker 3:Like, the best way to learn these new technologies is if you have fun with it. You have to play with it. So I I build those things that I think could be useful. I tried different languages. I tried different approaches.
Speaker 3:It's again, the engineering I don't like the word white coding so much. I always make the joke. I I do, like, enchanting engineering, and then when it starts hitting 3AM, I switch to vibe coding, the next next day I have regrets.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You should have just gone to sleep, basically. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard. But then I just I just build little things.
Speaker 3:I had this idea about personal agents in in in May already. And I I tried. It was like the time that g b d four one was out. That was just not good enough. And then I thought, well, all the big all the big companies will build this in the next few months anyhow.
Speaker 3:So so I was like, why why why the f should I do that? You know? I'm just gonna wait, and they make it better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I built up I know I know I build a lot of stuff. There's, like, one project that is still unfinished that I, at some point, wanna finish. And I build a lot a a lot of CLIs because that's that's where agents are really good. You know? You have to close the loop.
Speaker 3:That's always the the secret. You have to give you have to build it so that the agent has the best possible way to build software. And this is that's the the secret a little bit. I tried a lot of stuff. And then in in November, I looked and still there was nothing.
Speaker 3:Like, where is where is my fucking agent? Yeah. I I I had a little project in in May. I spent two months on it. It it started as a joke because we I did a hackathon with with two friends, and we're like, what can we build that that could be kinda cool?
Speaker 3:Wouldn't it be cool if I could use plot code for my phone? Yeah. It's kinda like it's something that everybody builds. I see this, like, every day. Like, by now, almost call it like this is, like, one step in your journey in becoming a good engineering engineer is you're gonna build some some shitty orchestration tool for yourself because it's fun and you think yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Bridge.
Speaker 3:And I I built that for two months, and then I had to stop because it became so good that I was out with my friends, but, literally, it was my phone, like, using Cloud Code to, like, work on this thing. And it's like, this is bad for my mental health. Yeah. It's already bad. And now, like, I'm I'm literally building something so I have better access to my drugs.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I saw I I I've seen people using Cloud Code on laptops as they get off of airplanes because they're so locked in. They just have to send one more, and that's, like, the clearest sign that, like, you need a bridge and a phone involved.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No. But also, like, you know, like, this this feeling when your agent's not running. Like, right now, there's, like, two terminals that act you could be building something. Right?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so if if you're in this addiction mode, you're almost like you almost feel like
Speaker 2:If you need to step out for ten seconds of
Speaker 1:fire off that Yeah. Feel free to take a break when you can add, Reid.
Speaker 3:Oh, there's Okay. There's still some drama that that I'm I'm I'm finishing. But, you know so in November Yeah. I I don't know. You know, I I wake up every day.
Speaker 3:I'm like, okay. What do I wanna work on now? What would be cool? And then they was like, okay. I I wanna check with my computer on WhatsApp because because if my agent's on a run is running and then I go to the kitchen, I wanna check up on them.
Speaker 3:Or, like, I wanna, like, do little prompts. Yeah. So I I just hacked together some WhatsApp integration that literally receives a message, calls Cloud Code, and then returns what Cloud Code returns. One shot. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it took, like, one hour, and it worked. And I was like, woah. Okay. That's kinda cool. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But I usually use prompts, like a little text and an image. Because images are like, they often give you so much context and you don't have to type so much. Mhmm. So I feel like this is like one of the hacks where you can prompt faster, just like make a screenshot so that agents are really good at figuring out what you want. So I hacked together images.
Speaker 3:And then I I was on a trip in Marrakesh with, like, a weekend birthday trip. And I I found myself using this, like, way more than I than I thought, but not for not for programming. It's more like, hey. We are, like there's, restaurants because it it it had Google in it, and it it it could figure out stuff. And it's like especially when you're on the go, it is, like, super useful.
Speaker 3:And then I wasn't thinking. I was just sending it a voice message. You know? But I didn't build that. There was no support for voice messages in there.
Speaker 3:So so so the reading indicator came, and I'm like, oh, I'm really curious what's what's happening now. And then after ten seconds, my agent replied as if nothing happened. I'm like, how the f did you do that? And it replied, yeah. You sent me you sent me a message, but there was only a link to a file.
Speaker 3:There's no file ending. So I looked at the file header. I found out that it's Opus. I used FFmpeg on your Mac to convert it to to WAV. And then I wanted to use Vispa but didn't have it installed, and there was an install error.
Speaker 3:But then I looked around and found the OpenAI key in your environment. So I sent it via curl to OpenAI, got the translation back, and then I unresponded. That was, like, the moment where, like
Speaker 1:Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, it's like, that's where it clicked. These things are, like, damn smart, resourceful beast if you actually give them the
Speaker 1:power. Sure.
Speaker 3:And then I was I was kinda hooked. Like, I did all kinds of of of weird stuff. Like, I use it as alarm clock. I I let it migrate to my computer in London, but then it used SSH to log into my my Mac MacBook and turn up the volume to wake me up in the morning. I think I built Word's most expensive alarm clock.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's crazy.
Speaker 3:And it it even got it wrong because I had, like uses it a heartbeat. You know, like, the concept of you do a prompt and you get something is already if this full access inherently dangerous. But I was like, let's turn it up a notch. Let's let's automate that. Let's give it a heartbeat, and and and the prompt was literally surprised me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Wow. That's very cool.
Speaker 3:But, you know, I I see this this project as as much technology as it is, like, art and exploration. Mhmm. Because this feels in one way in one way, it's just glue. It's it's it's just putting pieces together that we already have. In another way, it's it's a whole different way how you interact with those things.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Because all the technology blends away. You don't think about new session, compaction, which model I mean, maybe a little bit because tokens are still expensive. But, usually, all of that blends away. You just you just talk to a friend or a ghost or
Speaker 2:Yeah. May be it may be last year, everyone was wanting these agentic experiences. You were having this experience, and and it seemed like all the focus was on browsers. And seeing the way that people have been using sorry, Mold MoldBot. It's taking me a while to adapt.
Speaker 2:It just feels like all the focus was at the wrong layer. It's like, why do I care about the browser if I can just talk with an agent?
Speaker 1:Across every app.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Across every app, every every surface. It's like I don't care about the browser at all anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I I mean, a lot of the prep work I did before I built this was just built little CLIs. Because my my my premise is MTPs are crap. Mhmm. Doesn't really scale.
Speaker 3:People build, like, all kinds of weird search things around it. But you know what scales? CLIs. Agents know Unix. You can have, like, a thousand little programs on your computer.
Speaker 3:You they just have to know the name. They call the help menu. They load in what's needed. We are calling the help menu. Then they know how to use it, and then they can use it.
Speaker 3:And if you if you are smart, you build it in a way that just uses what the model already expects. You know? Don't build it for humans. Build it for models. So if they call minus minus log, you build minus minus log.
Speaker 3:And so it's, like, agentic driven for, like yeah. Build build how they think, and everything works better. It's a new kind of software in a way. Yeah. So for most of the things, I don't need a browser.
Speaker 3:Like, I built something for the whole Google thing, for places, for my Sonos. I hooked up my cameras, my my my home automation system. And, like, with every little CLI and skill, my agent got more power and it got more fun. Yeah. And I already had a lot of that working when I when I I built the the WhatsApp thing, and I just got hooked.
Speaker 3:And the thing was I found it amazing. And I talked about it on Twitter. And usually when I when I talk about projects, I I get response. But this one, it was very muted. It feels like people are not getting it.
Speaker 3:I I showed it to my friends, even my non tech friends, and they're like, they wanted it. So it was like I was I was up to something. You know? Mhmm. But the tech people wouldn't get it.
Speaker 3:So I tried I tried a bunch of things. Like, I I kept working on it because I used it. And ultimately, I built it for me. You know, this is open source. My motivation is have fun, inspire people, not make a whole bunch of money.
Speaker 3:I already have a whole bunch of money.
Speaker 2:How are you how are you how have you been navigating the last seventy two hours? I mean, the last week, really. Because because we were joking earlier on the show But
Speaker 1:decline that too.
Speaker 2:The amount of the amount of people that are frantically trying to give you money, acquire the company Hire you. Contribute to the project Imagine hire you. Intense. You know, there's companies with, you know, point o 1% of the traction that are raising at, you know, multi billion dollar valuations. You have infinite opportunities right now, and yet you seem very happy doing, just continuing to do exactly what you're doing.
Speaker 2:But how are you thinking through it all?
Speaker 3:I mean, am I taking it? Badly, at least sleep wise. But it but it's also infinitely exciting, and I I love that I started something. You know? I I I would say last year was the year of the coding agent.
Speaker 3:This year is the year of the personal assistant. Mhmm. And I think I cracked and woke up people that there's a real need for it. I don't know if if if Mobot is is the answer. It's it should show people the way.
Speaker 3:I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of a lot of products in this space. I'm sure people are manically working on it right now. Mhmm. Obviously, it's gonna be very interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But there was a lot of stuff between Twitter literally exploding, our Discord server multiplying in in ways I've I haven't seen before and in ways I I couldn't handle. Like, at some point, I was just copy pasting questions from Discord into codex.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Then if I had to response, wrote the next question. At some point, that didn't scale anymore. So was just, like, copied the whole channel and, like, answer the answer the 20 most questions. I was, like, reading over it, gave him a few instructions, and and and then just pushed it over. Because what what people don't realize, it's like, this is not a company.
Speaker 3:This is like one dude sitting at home having fun. Yeah. Even though, like, I guess from the commits, it it might appear that it's a company. Yeah. That's that's just because Adjunctive Models got so good that you can now ship as much as a company could a year ago.
Speaker 3:Yeah. If you if you if you can handle those tools, if you speak the language or, like, understand how the language thinks Mhmm. You can you can go really fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah. How are the conversations going with with different labs? I was saying earlier, it's this kind of exciting moment for the labs because they're like, wow, people are using the intelli you know, someone's using the intelligence that I created in a new way. But at the same time, it's deeply uncomfortable because they're also using all of my competitors. And it it Sure.
Speaker 2:Make it very easy to to kind of use whatever model.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. I my premise for this project was a little bit that every model should work, including local models because to me, it's a playground. It's it's it's an amazing way to learn. Like, I think everybody should, like, build an authentic loop.
Speaker 3:You should, like, explore memory. There's, like, so many interesting aspects of it. And I I built it so that, like it has, like, plug ins so that people can work at their own little thing without having to, like, mess with the whole core. So it's it's it's like the AI hacker's paradise a little bit. And it it's also super fun because it's personal.
Speaker 3:Model wise, Opus is with quite a bit lead the best. OpenAI is very reliable. I would even say more reliable and more reliable worker. Like, for coding, I I I much prefer Codecs because it it can navigate large code bases. And literally you can literally prompt and then push to main, and I have a very I have, like, 95% certainty that it actually works.
Speaker 3:With Cloud Code, you need you need more tricks to to get the same. You you need more more charade, I I sometimes say. Both both are good, but I can paralyze faster by codecs because it it requires less handholding. But character wise, I tell you, I don't know what they trained their model on, how much of Reddit is in there or whatever, but it it behaves so good in in a Discord. Like, we programmed it.
Speaker 3:So it it it it it it kinda it kinda feels like a human. It doesn't reply to every message. I gave it the thing where it can reply no reply, basically, like a token, and then we just don't send a message. So so it it it's it's not like it spams with every message. It's like it listens to the conversation and then sometimes brings a banger.
Speaker 3:Like, it's like, did actually make me laugh. And, you know, this is kinda hard because because the jokes of AIs are usually really bad. Yeah. Yeah. And I only really experienced that with with Opus.
Speaker 3:So this is that's my favorite model. That's also why it's a little bit of a banger that I got an email from Anthropic that I had to rename the project. Mhmm. And I I mean, kudos. They were really nice.
Speaker 3:They they they didn't send their lawyers. They sent someone internally, but the timeline was a bit rough. Like, renaming a project with that much traction was a bit of a shit show. I think everything that everything that could have gone wrong today went wrong.
Speaker 1:Oh, no.
Speaker 3:I tell you. Yeah. Like I
Speaker 1:mean, for what it's worth,
Speaker 2:I think the new name works
Speaker 1:really well.
Speaker 2:I guess the thing the thing that's actually good, I think in the long run, it'll be good. Yeah. I mean, obviously, it's good for Anthropic. They it's it's kind of untenable to have this massive viral even though it's not a company, right, an open source project to have this viral kind of brand out in the world that Yeah. It doesn't matter if it's, you know, spelled differently.
Speaker 2:But when people are running around talking about Claude Bot or Claude, you know, there's obvious confusion. But think I it'll be very good for for Malt Bot to have independence and have its own brand. And I think it's so early and the experience is so magical that it'll it'll it'll solve itself very quickly.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. It'll be fine. But but I tell you, like, I well, I I got some additional pressures that was like, screw it. We do it now.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You know, like, meme, we
Speaker 1:do it live. So
Speaker 3:so so I I had two windows open with Twitter. On the one, I pressed rename. On the other one, like, I finished creating the other account. It was already snapped by by Crypto Shales. Wow.
Speaker 3:I don't know. They they they have, like, they have, like, scripts. They were already waiting for it.
Speaker 2:The Shoulda had us up, we woulda connected you to X, the team. They can do it on the back end.
Speaker 3:Can do it on
Speaker 2:the back end. Hopefully, no next time.
Speaker 3:Oh, they they they they were amazing. They helped me out immediately. We we got it solved very quickly, but but for, like, twenty minutes yeah. Well, that didn't work out too well. Hopefully And
Speaker 2:and you're like you're like, if I wanted money, I would raise a billion dollars. Right? Yeah. Right? So I'd sell it for more than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You own a Mac Mini? Everyone wants to know.
Speaker 3:Do you
Speaker 1:own a Mac Mini? What do think of Mac Minis?
Speaker 3:My agent is a little bit of a princess. He doesn't do Mac Minis with no studios. Okay. You want some horsepower? He got the he got the the 512 maxed out everything thing because Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I wanted to, like, mess around with local models as well. Sure. So, like, I I I can run a mini max to one, which is, I would say, is is the best the best open source model right now. Although Kimi just came out, I haven't had a chance to try it yet. So so we'll see how that goes.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But, yeah, one machine is not enough for it. It's it's not fun. You probably need two or three, and I kinda wanna wait until Apple does a new release. But Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's still fun to, like, to, like, see the potential that, yeah, there's a there's a future where this could actually work.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well So if if the if the Mac mini trend keeps going Yeah. Apple, from from what we've seen, sells, like, between a quarter million to, like, 700,000 a year. Yeah. It's very possible that you'll be responsible for selling them out.
Speaker 2:So hopefully, they send you some free ones as a thank you.
Speaker 1:Yes. So yes, I mean, zooming out, do you how much of this do you think is going to remain hacker culture, running your own hardware? And eventually, people will move to cloud hosting, one click deployments, like just easier to use, less technical versus like a real boom in running hardware because if you don't, there's not a lot of ways to get these different services to play nicely together. I think one of the beauties beyond just the actual AI agents is the fact that, for the first time, I think people are seeing different big tech platforms kind of play with each other, somewhat against their will. They don't play with it.
Speaker 1:They build walled gardens for a reason, and you sort of chop those walls down. And I'm wondering what you think about the future of like self hosting hardware, even going down the less technical crew getting hardware running their own agents.
Speaker 3:I don't think the future will be that everybody buys a Mac mini just for that.
Speaker 1:You know? Yeah.
Speaker 3:I certainly see the demand for the old models have to change. You know, like, when you are a company, you wanna access Gmail. The amount of red tape is so large that that startups buy other startups that have the license for Gmail because going to the process yourself is is a is a huge pit up.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:But if you run it locally, you work around all of that. Right? Like, if I mean I mean, I I build I build where I literally I literally pointed Codex at the website and say, build me a CLI. Yeah. And then which is sometimes against the term, sometimes not.
Speaker 3:Honestly, I don't really care. Yeah. Yeah. And my colleagues would say, no. I can't do that.
Speaker 3:This is, like, against blood and blood. And I would, like, tell him a story. You know? It's like, no. No.
Speaker 3:I actually work at this company, and I need to surprise my boss. And the back end team doesn't know. I'm like, you know, give me a little bit of a story. Like like, they're so valuable, Cody's like, forty minutes and, like, gets you the perfect API. So so this is a little bit the liberation of data that Big Tech probably doesn't really want.
Speaker 3:I mean, even even the WhatsApp integration is a hack. You know? This is like it it it fakes the the protocol that the desktop abuses. I tried. I really tried to support the official way.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:But the official way is for businesses. Yeah? If I'm a business that sends you a 100 messages, I get blocked. So I got blocked immediately. And at some point, I I removed support for it in rage.
Speaker 3:It's like, delete everything. It's like, hundred hundred exclamation marks. Yeah. There's there's just no model for that right now, and I think that needs to change. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like, the what what I saw, what was really interesting is how people use it is a lot of apps will just melt away. Why do I still need my fitness pal? I just make a picture of my food. My my agent already knows I'm I'm at McDonald's making bad decisions. So, like, this combines information, it has a perfect match and knows exactly what I'm gonna eat, and I'm probably, like, change my fitness program.
Speaker 3:So I don't need the fitness app. It'll just, like, adapt my program and make sure, like, I still meet my goals.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So, like, there's a whole there's a whole big layer of of apps that I'm gonna see disappear because you just naturally interact differently with those things. Mhmm. Like, most apps will be reduced to API. And then the question is, do you still need the API if I can just save it somewhere else?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do you think, like do you think it'll be a generational thing? Do you think that that nontechnical people will, you know, get over the hump and start running this for that experience specifically?
Speaker 3:I just I just came from a meetup. The agent I know was from Indiana. And I met someone who was like a design agency, but they never coded. And he was like, yeah. He discovered me early in in December.
Speaker 3:He started using Multipot. Yes. We we we gonna we gonna we gonna manage eventually. Don't it was
Speaker 2:worry. We'll say it thousands of times this year, I'm sure. So
Speaker 3:We will. Multipot. I should say Multibot. That's cute. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And and he was like, yeah. We have 25 web services now. We just build internal tools for whatever we need. And, like, has no clue has no clue how coding works. He just, uses Telegram and and, like, just talks to his agent, and the agent builds stuff.
Speaker 3:So so there's there's this whole shift of you don't you don't subscribe to random startups anymore that that build, like, this common subset of what you need. You just have your own hyper personalized software that solves exactly your problem and it's also free. Yeah. So and and and nontechnical people do that. You know?
Speaker 3:Because it it just comes so naturally. You just you just talk your problem, and then this thing builds what you need. And you also don't forget, like, this is the worst that the model has ever are. Like, this this is not only gonna go up. This is only gonna become easier and faster.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Have you met Jensen yet? Because I feel like you're making his life. You're definitely helping out in the end to
Speaker 3:be stressed.
Speaker 1:Bull case. Right?
Speaker 2:It's like I would if I would had my tinfoil hat on, I might say you're you're an in you know, big AI industry plant designed to create more inference demand.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. I guess I am. Just a little.
Speaker 1:No. No. We're we're joking around. Just just an indie.
Speaker 2:What's next?
Speaker 1:Yeah. What's next? Yeah.
Speaker 2:We're I'm assuming you're hopefully getting after you finish firing off prompts at 3AM, you get some sleep. What are you doing tomorrow?
Speaker 3:There's a lot of emails from security researchers right now. Yeah. You know you know, the thing is I built this for fun Mhmm. For me to use one on one on WhatsApp or Telegram. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:The whole thing with Discord was, like, edit, but the model was that you trust the people that are in there. Now people use it for untrusted experiences. Yeah. They use, like, the the little the little web app that I have that isn't that was meant for debugging. They put it on the open Internet.
Speaker 3:So, like, all the threat models that I didn't had didn't care about are now there because people use it differently, and I'm I'm being bombarded. There's, like, some stuff that's valid, some stuff that I just never cared about that is technically valid, but that's not how I use it. Mhmm. I don't know how to deal with that yet because it's the whole system is broken. You know?
Speaker 3:Like, I I'm like one guy. I do this for fun, and you expect me to sift through a 100 security things for use cases that I don't really care about. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes. Luckily, I am starting to build up a team.
Speaker 3:There's definitely people that do care a lot about this. Mhmm. So I would say this is gonna become a very secure product eventually because right now the whole world is,
Speaker 1:like Yeah.
Speaker 3:Pulling it apart. And to be honest, this is this is all bytecoded. You know? Yeah. Like, there's there's there's quite some engineering in it, but, ultimately, I wanted to build something to show people anyway, not a finished product from enterprise company.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And and I would I would even say, like, I don't know if any company would touch it because we just haven't solved some things. Like, prompt injection is not solved. Yeah. There is there is absolute risk. And I and I I tried to make it very clear in in on the website.
Speaker 3:And even when you started, you have to, like, please read this document. There's, like, with with great power becomes great responsibility. And to my early users, they understood. There was a lot there's a lot of AI researchers in there as well that, yeah. It's not perfect.
Speaker 3:Cannot be done perfect yet. I I would say this will accelerate research to make it better because now you have the demand, and we need to we can figure out a way how we can build something that works for everyone. But, yeah, right now, I'm I'm working on making this a community, and and it it should be bigger than me. It also, I need help. It it is way too much work.
Speaker 3:Like, I can only I can only go so much without sleep.
Speaker 2:So so is any part of you wanna form an actual company that then, you know, contributes to the open source project but solves some of these problems that are gonna require, you know, a bunch of people that presumably would need a salary in order to commit all their time to this? Or do you wanna keep it, you know, just a bunch of hackers forever?
Speaker 3:I think instead of a company, would much rather consider a foundation or, like, something that is nonprofit. I haven't made up my mind yet. There is
Speaker 2:10,000. VCs just punched a hole in the wall. Actually, I don't know. Some people have had a good track record investing in nonprofits over the last
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 3:Ten
Speaker 1:years. How do you think about open source licensing? What what are you picking now? Are you switching? Do do you have any plans to change the license?
Speaker 1:How do you think about someone just taking this and selling it?
Speaker 3:This will happen. This will totally happen. Yeah. I would say the premise against it is let's make open source so good that there's not a lot of space for people to, like, convert and make it their own thing.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:But, you know, ultimately, it's it's a trade off. I wanted to I wanted it to be accessible and free. You pick MIT or something like that. Yes. That would get you people that that that sell it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But, ultimately, it doesn't even matter that much. You know, code is code is not worse that much anymore. It's you could you could you could just delete that and then and then build it again in a month. It's it's much more the idea and the eyeballs, and maybe the brand that actually has value.
Speaker 3:So let them.
Speaker 2:You are already a cult hero.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The chat's going crazy for you. Everyone loves you.
Speaker 2:This is one of the most refreshing and unique interviews we've ever had on
Speaker 1:the For sure. Sure. We'll let you get some sleep. Thank you so much for hopping on the show.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Anything else you wanna share before you jump off? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yes. Would love to have maintainers. Like, if you if you love open source, if you have experience, if you love shifting to security reports, or or if you love taking software apart but then also help and not just, like, throw work at me because I'm, like, at my limit. Email me. I'm I want this to outlift me.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. This I think this is too cool to to to let it go to rot, and it's good people.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Incredible. Are you gonna ship that product you had in the in the chamber, you said? There was one you were close. Are you gonna lock in on this?
Speaker 3:That's that's my hobby. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:No. No. I I have some other ideas in my head of what something like this could become.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And it doesn't need to be this, but I don't wanna share too much.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No problem. Come back on
Speaker 3:the show when you when you launch that. We'd love to have you.
Speaker 2:Purely for the love of the game.
Speaker 1:The love of the game.
Speaker 2:You're an absolute legend. It was great hanging, Peter.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much.
Speaker 2:Some sleep.
Speaker 1:Get some sleep.
Speaker 3:We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Founder me.
Speaker 2:What a legend. Yeah.
Speaker 1:True overnight success in both ways. You know? I like, actually, an overnight success in terms of that GitHub star chart, And then also an overnight success in just grinding for, you know, years, building projects and contributing, and then building, setting the product up, the brand right, everything just perfect to really capitalize on the moment.
Speaker 2:There were so many I I I normally I have we don't we're we're podcasting so much. Yeah. Just don't have a ton of time to read, listen to stuff. But there were so many
Speaker 1:Very interesting.
Speaker 2:Kind of interesting points of views that he shared that I'll
Speaker 1:certainly to see where this goes. A lot of people are saying, get this guy a billion dollars. A lot of people are saying he's gonna wind up working
Speaker 2:I don't think he needs it. Yeah. Like like that's the beauty of this is that it was not something magical that was created by
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Spending Yeah. Burning a billion dollars.