Hi, and welcome to another episode of Found, a conversation at the intersection of Christian faith and culture, where we always aim to find Jesus in the way we react and respond to our world. My name is Linda Tokar, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Brandon Bathauer.
You are going to engage in the public sphere somehow.
Yeah.
Either by separating from it, by kind of keeping a foot in each or viewing your job to like do the reconciling work in society,
right?
But you will make a decision.
Hey, Brandon.
Well, hey, Lind. It is good to be with you here.
Here we are. It has been a while.
It's Yeah,
we've had a bit of a of a break.
A pause.
A pause, one could say, with our podcast. We've
been doing a lot of things. There's been a lot of ministry that we've been doing, a lot of changes.
Uh, Linda, you're teaching like hundreds and hundreds of people every single week and uh we're doing some really fun stuff.
Yes, absolutely.
And then we were like, wait a second, we have some content around this stuff.
This is a moment that requires a Found.
Yes, it does require a Found episode. This is so true. So, we are dusting off the old podcast mics and uh we're back.
So, let's jump in. I want to welcome you all to this new series that we are calling Living Faithfully in the Public Sphere. This is actually going to be the first in a series of four episodes that'll explore how Jesus followers engage in the public sphere. How we approach the ballot box. How should we think about political tribalism? What part does being a citizen of this country and state and city and neighborhood mean for my walk with Jesus? Now, this topic is both relevant and timely. As we sit here recording this episode, we are in another election season here in the United States. My sample ballot, my voter information guide have arrived in the mail. My news feed and any television programming I happen to watch are crammed full of ads. I receive several direct mail pieces every single day. It is the conversation of the hour. But as I'm sure you've noticed, not everyone in the church is feeling it the same way. So in this series, we are going to look into three different approaches that Christians take to answering these questions. For each approach, we'll look at the biblical record and the cultural historical examples of this kind of thinking. We'll see the strengths and the pitfalls associated with each view. And finally, we'll think through how to live faithfully as Jesus followers who embrace each of the views. We're going to use this first episode to kind of set the stage for our upcoming conversations. So, Brandon, let's start with an overview. What are the three different approaches that we're going to be exploring in this series?
Yeah. All right. So, this is a a bull work of Found is that we like to take and observe different viewpoints uh for a lot of different reasons, but that's what all of our episodes are around uh because we're all shaped by stories. Right?
Um the stories we tell shape who we are. And so depending on what stories we're holding on to that's shaping how we are engaging in the public sphere. So again, this is everything from yes voting and the ballot box, but how should I think about the government? How should I think about even my work in my workplace? How am I engaging as a Christian in the public sphere? What is my role to play? How do I do that faithfully while also being faithful to Jesus. So, we want to look into that.
Mhm.
Um, we're going to be looking at three different viewpoints, per usual, about how Jesus followers engage with the political things of this world. Before we do, I want to just name a couple things. Number one, the current reality isn't working. I I was just this past weekend, uh, we now are doing prayer in the front um, after services here like Forest, and
man, I get to pray for a variety of people, and it's honestly my favorite thing. The amount of people that are sharing about division they are feeling with their spouse or their kids
in their families
where their families are being torn apart because of these political divisions.
Um we're divided into two groups. That's our nation right now. Two very different ways of thinking. The left and the right. And these are so strong here in America.
It again it divides churches. It divides communities.
I think about my neighborhood. You have different flags flying on the street and it repres two completely different political spaces.
Mhm.
Let me ask you, who's feeling great whenever you think about politics? Who just gets warm fuzzies in their heart and they're just like, "This is wonderful. I'm doing my part." No. Who Who feels more full of love for your neighbors or the people that you invite over? Look, politics aside, this isn't working. The re the the religion of politics, as David Brooks talks about, it's ruining us.
Yeah.
As people.
Yeah.
Now, there's a reason people give greater allegiance to the donkey or the elephant here in America than Jesus. And I was thinking about this like why is it that the political sphere pulls so much of us into it.
And I think in many ways it's because often our view of being Christian is just like spiritual stuff. Like it doesn't really have implications on the real world. It's like, well, I'm a Christian, which means, you know, I go to church on the weekend, maybe I'm in a small group, and then, you know, I'm set for after I die,
right?
But all the rest of everything I experience day to day, uh, you know, maybe Jesus doesn't m much have have much to say about that. And so, my community is changing. You know, crime rate is impacting some of the things around me. I experience the economic implications of political things every day. I go to the grocery store and so like does my following of Jesus have anything to do with that? We've often created such a huge divide that my daily experience has been so separated from Jesus that of course I'm going to give more of my allegiance and thought
to the things that impact me day to day more than just that waiting around for eternity.
Right?
And so the question is is Jesus just about what happens after death? Or just helping me feel better in my heart about those things or does his way have implications
for all of these things? And you can probably guess we're leaning towards the latter there.
Um, okay. So, politics aren't working. The second thing is often politics gets more of our allegiance than Jesus does because maybe we've made Jesus too small and politics too big.
Third, um, there are Christian ways of thinking that have had deep and profound impact throughout church history.
Mhm.
Um we're going to be looking into all three of these and unlike other Found episodes where we kind of hold up two kind of caricatures.
Yeah.
And then find the way of Jesus in between them. I think what we're going to do is look at these three views that I think all of them are held by faithful Christian
faith. ful Jesus followers seeking to be faithful to the call of Jesus and to obedience to him
in the political sphere. And so as we talk through these three uh we're going to give some strengths and some weaknesses with each of them
give a challenge if you find yourself in that category
and call in each of them to say what would it look like to be more faithful to Jesus in this look uh our sphere of being Christian evangelicalism um has generally we had we've had this approach where at church what we want to do is make things comfortable for the seeker and the saved, right?
Come on in. And so we're not going to take political stances and there's a lot of good and wisdom to that.
There are really important things that are only going to be proclaimed in the church,
right?
We want to talk about Jesus
and we want to talk about the gospel and Jesus's power of forgiveness and the way he can bring mercy and transformation and reconcile us with each other. and give us a home forever and eternity with him. Like, okay, let's talk about those things, right?
Um, and we want somebody who's going to come walking in off the street to feel comfortable. And if they go, well, man, we're already look at how divided or this church is just on that side. I'm out. So, for that reason, a lot of churches we've spent for the last 40 years like we're not going to really engage in a lot of these topics. The challenge in that is for a lot of Christians Um, individuals can't take the same thing. You are going to engage in the public sphere somehow.
Yeah.
Either by separating from it,
by kind of keeping a foot in each or viewing your job to like do the reconciling work in society,
right?
But you will make a decision.
And uh, a lot of our conversations um that have happened in this space have not actually happened in the church at the same time because we've not done a lot of talking over the last 40 years. Uh again, the world has discipled our political thinking way more than Jesus has.
Yeah. The more silent we are, they don't have to speak. The world doesn't have to speak that loud. It just is speaking.
Yes.
And so the fact that we have been more silent than not has just given we've just opened the stage and let them speak.
Yeah. And so if you talk to a fellow Christian, I think you'll find and I find this in myself that the voice of Jesus has been turned down very much in that space
um and the voice of the world has been turned up to max volume.
I think the other thing that I was thinking about as you were talking about some of the challenges that we're facing is that sometimes people will say this political view is the only one that reflects Christian value and they tie them so closely together that then people who espouse a different way of approaching things. It it's just not just seen as a different political view. It's seen like you must clearly not know Jesus,
right?
Which is another problem.
Again, that goes back to allegiance, right? So, if allegiance to political party actually has greater value uh than our allegiance to Jesus, then we go, man, if you aren't allegiant to my political party,
yeah,
you're probably not a Christian. And I hope what we do as we talk these things through is that hopefully it'll actually create more bridges and more opportunities. So, that's one of the things, one of the the reason we want to talk this through. Yes, because we are in election season. Um, but also we I want you to feel like you have greater insight and perspective to offer than just the partisan rhetoric. Again, because what we've been given around any of these topics um of abortion and immigration and the economy and uh a variety of other political situations that are all hot bed issues. Uh one of the challenges there is it feels like well all I've really been given is just the partisan rhetoric
right
of the left or the right. So
what if we could give something deeper? Mhm.
And um and then that moves us into I think another major piece is uh we want to help in this to name some of the philosophical underpinnings of these different views because look a lot of the talking points we give we've are just paring something that we heard from somebody else.
Right?
We've unintentionally inherited views that unless we take them and examine them like scripture says that we should
take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. That's what we need to do. And so that's what we're doing here is we're taking certain viewpoints and going,
okay, let's actually name what this is.
Let's name some thinkers around it. So if you want to go deeper into it to kind of see where it goes,
right?
Um that can be helpful. And then as you hear
uh you know certain political candidates that are espousing Christian views, you can go, "Oh, they're in that view."
Or uh pastors or friends or parents or family members, and you can be like, "Oh, I understand where they're coming from. I may disagree,
right?
But I understand the kind of point of view that they're coming with.
Helps bring clarity in a very confusing world.
I think the other big goal that we have is to help you and help us all think biblically and not just politically.
Um it's so easy to get caught up in partisan politics. And the frameworks that we're going to talk about are going to help you think biblically and shift the focus from aligning with a party to aligning with God's kingdom and to think about evaluating issues and candidates through the lens of scripture and Christ's teachings instead of what party they're affiliated with or anything else. But we want to put a biblical lens on all of these to see how we can think biblically, not just politically.
And I think the last reason just as we thought through why we were doing this is just we want to expand the thinking of all of the ways that following Jesus should influence Not if but how we show up as citizens of his kingdom into this world.
I just any place we can think of Jesus as Lord of all.
Any place that we give him more say over more aspects of our lives and our thinking in my mind is a win. And so
absolutely
if the politics box is one that we don't want to have Jesus open uh it's going to get darker and darker there and it's going to miss out on the light and love and grace and justice of our God. Uh what happens when we open that box and let Jesus open that box with us and speak into it?
It's so good. I mean it what is the saying? If Jesus isn't Lord of all, he's not Lord at all.
Oh, that's good.
Yeah. Yeah.
I like that one. So, I mean, he has to be Lord over.
Yeah.
This as well.
I've been playing with this phrase, Lord of more.
And uh you know, sometimes it's hard for us to think about Lord of all of my life, but what if every day you think How can I make Jesus Lord of more of my
really love that?
Isn't that nice? It's kind of a step
constantly towards the end goal of Lord of all. But imagine this conversation as a step towards Lord of more. How much does Jesus have say
over this part of your heart, your desires, your identity, your passion?
Let's not let that be taken over by this or that party. Let's let Jesus be the one driving that passion, that that interest, that study of the propositions, all that stuff, you know, let's let him drive our involvement. Uh, and so doing make him lord of more.
So good.
So, um, yeah. So, here are going to be the three viewpoints. You ready for them?
All right. I I'm ready. Okay. We want to lift up three faithful Christian views that throughout Christian history there have been faithful, loving, dedicated Jesus followers who as they looked at the reality of their time and the needs of their time.
They engaged in one of these three views. So with that, let me dive into the three y and then we'll expand them out a little bit more.
Great.
So the the first view we are calling separation as faithfulness. And this viewpoint basically sees um I want you to imagine two circles in your mind. One circle is the kingdom of God and the other is the kingdom of this world and they are against each other. You have to choose one or the other.
So it's this idea that if we separate from the public sphere, if we uh kind of huddle together with our community of faithful believers, we stay out of culture, we stay out of politics, we stay out of the world, well then we won't be corrupted by the world and we can live faithfully as followers of Jesus. It's kind of like, well, the world is run by the ruler of this world, the evil one, and so
we're going to just let it be the mess that it is, and we're going to seek to be faithful amidst that corrupted world.
Um, obviously, we're going to go way deeper into each of these. That's what the other episodes will be.
Yes.
But this is Just a brief overview, the the second view uh we're calling the secular sacred divide or as uh Martin Luther called it the two kingdoms view.
So with this one,
imagine now still two circles, but they're a lot closer together. Kingdom of God, kingdom of this world,
and you are a little stick figure and you have a foot in both.
Got it?
Okay. So, sometimes you're wearing a kingdom of God hat, sometimes you're wearing a kingdom of this world hat. the systems of government that of course God reigns over all but this view says well God has the church to kind of do the kingdom of God stuff
and then God has the government to kind of run systems of justice and structure and order and law and that's a totally different
system with its own set of values and uh ways of thinking and morality and a virtue. So, you're in both and that's what you got to figure out. So, when you're engaging with public at work, at the voting booth, you're in the kingdom of this world. When you're at church doing Christian things,
um worshiping God, practicing your small groups, serving others in the church, your foot is in the kingdom of God. Okay?
So, two distinct realms. So, there's secular and there's sacred. And I live in both. And when I'm in the sacred world, I live with sacred values and virtues and that whole way of thinking. And when I'm in the secular world,
of course, I'm going to hope for justice and peace and order,
but I'm going to function kind of in the secular world with its values and virtues.
And then the third view is uh what we're calling the transformation view.
And for this one, imagine two circles again, but this time the kingdom of God is a circle within the kingdom of this world.
Okay?
A smaller circle. Imagine like a head,
okay?
Growing and restoring and expanding the kingdom of God over the kingdom of this world.
And so this is where you have the kingdom of God with its values and virtues and the reign of God
slowly expanding and growing with uh greater and greater influence reconciling the ways of this world into the reign and rule of God. And it advocates for the transformative power of following Jesus in all areas of life. It engages believers to view their actions as a means of bringing about God's justice and mercy and truth into every aspect of society, culture, and politics. So, those are going to be the three faithful Christian views that we're going to look into and uh see what implications they have for us.
I can't wait.
It's going to be good.
So, as we wrap up this intro episode, just some questions for you to consider before you hear the rest of the series and that is first of all which view do you most resonate with as Brandon explained them like which one were you like oh that's me and then the other question another question is what views have you observed like in your faith journey maybe the church that you were raised in maybe in your own family um maybe your spouse
y
what are the views of those kind of around you and in your history and then finally um what do you think you can learn learn from the other two views would once you kind of see where you land, what do you think you could learn from the other two? So that's great.
Yeah. I mean that's what we want to do, right? Is not just understand ourselves but understand those around us. Yeah.
So with that we enjoy in invite you to enjoy the rest of the series and you know you don't have to listen to them all in order. Maybe listen to the one that feels the most far or the most distant from where you're currently set. But enjoy it. It's going to be awesome.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Found. As always, the references and recommendations for books and everything will be in the show notes. We love you and we'll see you next time. This is a Saddleback Church podcast.