Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In this episode, Laura chats with Alan Levine about Bulletin Board Systems (BBS) and what was going on in the land of learning online in 1994.
25 Years of Ed Tech is a serialized audio version of the book 25 Years of Ed Tech, written by Martin Weller of the Open University and published by AU Press. The audio version of the book is a collaborative project with a global community of volunteers contributing their voices to narrate a chapter of the book. Bonus episodes are a series of conversations called "Between the Chapters" to chat about these topics and more!
"In this lively and approachable volume based on his popular blog series, Martin Weller demonstrates a rich history of innovation and effective implementation of ed tech across higher education. From Bulletin Board Systems to blockchain, Weller follows the trajectory of education by focusing each chapter on a technology, theory, or concept that has influenced each year since 1994. Calling for both caution and enthusiasm, Weller advocates for a critical and research-based approach to new technologies, particularly in light of disinformation, the impact of social media on politics, and data surveillance trends. A concise and necessary retrospective, this book will be valuable to educators, ed tech practitioners, and higher education administrators, as well as students."
Credits:
Text in quotes from the book website published by Athabasca University Press CC-BY-NC-ND
BG music Abstract Corporate by Gribsound released under a CC-BY license. Track was edited for time.
Artwork X-Ray Specs by @visualthinkery is licenced under CC-BY-SA.
Audio book chapters produced by Clint Lalonde.
Between the Chapters bonus podcast episodes produced by Laura Pasquini.
0:03
Between the chapters, a weekly podcast discussion focusing on a chapter of the book 25 years of edtech, written by Martin Weller. here's your host, Laura Pasquini.
0:18
Welcome to the episode. Today I'm with Alan Levine to talk about chapter 119 94. bulletin board systems BBS.
0:28
That sounds so excited I can hit the little like modem beeping sounds the
0:35
same. We're still educating any of the youth that are listening to this out there. What did they even talk about?
0:41
Like the fact that you'd be on the like, the moment someone in the house would pick up the phone?
0:46
I'm online. Oh, Alan,
0:51
thanks for joining me to talk about this first inaugural chapter I picked on you because I saw that you got a great little quotes from within the chapter. And I was like, What did Allen write about this doo doo doo doo doo? That's a great comment. That was like a blog post about this.
1:08
Yeah, well, it was good. And, you know, I, I kind of Martin is just so much fun. Because he's, he's, he's, he's like, so nice. And you can tease them too a little bit. And he doesn't take it personally. He'll text right back. And so like, I mean, I love what he's doing. Because, I mean, my trajectory was, was almost the same since I started in 92. At the Maricopa Community colleges, and, like, it's not like, Oh, I was there, and I have all this insight. But, you know, and it's, it's also like, I don't want to fall down the trap of like, glorifying, like, everything was so great back then. But like, like, you know, often, you know, as Audrey wonders, right, it's like, you know, with all the, you know, Russia about technology now is that we leave and forget history. And so, not that I have the history, but, you know, when I started my career, I kind of stepped into the middle of something I didn't know anything about, that I don't think has gotten really much recognition. And so just thinking about 1994. And, you know, what this era was and, and, and, you know, it is logical that Martin begins this moment with, with that, and kind of bulletin board systems, which sound almost archaic now. But they kind of make sense, as the ideas that kind of spawned the things that we take for granted now in terms of online communication. So I don't, you know, saying earlier, like, I was aware of BBSs, I was trying to remember, I'm sure I tried one. But I wasn't really active in them. So I'm, I'm kind of, a lot of times, you know, I'm talking like a little bit secondhand ish, and awareness about what was going on then. But you know, what, when I started, then, you know, the focus is all about, you know, I was interested in multimedia. And it was a lot of interested in LaserDisc. And, you know, and this is, even before the CD ROM was just kind of coming up as the medium. But the idea about using interactive, nonlinear multimedia was was really interesting. And, you know, and he has a lot of interest now, in video, of course, because we're, you know, people think, oh, God be on video all the time, and these zoom meeting things, and, and I'm just rambling here, but I was just listening to Jim groom gave a talk. And he's got this interest now and like other variants of video. But you know, I remember that, like, my cousin went to Arizona State. He got his degree, it's like in 1972. And basically, that was ed tech in those days. And I remember David, I said, Well, what was what was everybody interested in there? It was all about 16 millimeter film, it was about using that as a medium. So it's all a way of saying like, this stuff. It's all their stuff before. And it has some sort of influenced as to where we are now.
4:15
Yeah, I don't think that can be forgotten. And I think the starting of this chapter, it's funny to think about BBS and bulletin board systems because like, we did use them like I was trying to think of like, what revenues and maybe I would count IRC chats what I counts, like other, like, would you even jump into like Craigslist at some point, like there's different forms and what we know of like bulletin board systems outside of tech, but I think some of these initial electronic forums or like tronic, based communications, and BBS, actually, as Martin said, like he says it, it really started the forerunner what we know of social media, and this might be what we have to think of now is threaded conversations and it's still what happens on the daily on On these different platforms and services, and I don't think it can be forgotten, and whether he was trying to in that community college in Arizona back in the day, I think it does say what I think I found was interesting. What you said is, we had no idea what they would become, like, that's the thing. What the heck is this? And why and how are people going to use this? And will this matter? And that's a great question. Did you think about that, like when you're in that early 90s? And you're kind of like, Huh,
5:28
I could like, say what I thought I don't know exactly. If I was thinking about that. The thing about you know, it, I don't think it's as much about the threaded discussions was kind of the fact. And maybe at that time, it had the advantage of the fact that it was more insular and isolated, because there wasn't this big vast communication, Paul, so and you went to these things, because of and there's a name for it. It's just like interest driven communities. So people formed a BBS because they're interested in Ford Mustangs, or they're interested in Leo Tolstoy. And so there was a way for people to find other people with similar passions and interests, who necessarily they didn't, you know, rub elbows with during the day. And that's what the early BBS does, provided. And there's a huge barrier to get there. I mean, because the technology, you know, you know, and you read about the early, you know, in the 80s, the development of the modem, it's like, it was like, it was only expensive, it was hard to figure out how to do. And running one of these things was a big undertaking. And if you really want to know the history about it, is to look at the work of Jason Scott, who's with the Internet Archive. Now, he's got this great site about the history of BBS, and I just found how much is that there's a whole documentary, and a part documentary that's about this, this early era, and what it meant for people. So did I think about, you know, where it would go. Not really, I think just the fact that there's a space for people to have conversation about the things they're interested in, which didn't mean everything had to be about Ford Mustang. So invariably, in those conversations, people would reveal something else, oh, well, you know, I like to make bread, because like, Oh, I like to bake bread too. And so kind of having a place where there are people who you would brush elbows with, and could sort of riff off of you. And perhaps, you know, mediated by the fact that, you know, you and I are doing this, we can look at each other right now. But, you know, having to type it and sort of like wait for the reply. I mean, it's almost getting back to, you know, the first BBS is we're probably like, you know, you know, letters, you know, it's just chain value is slow, you know, you know, waiting, you know, I would write, you know, a message in the conversation, and someone would, would come back, and it would take days, you know, to have that conversation. So maybe it's the compression of it right now. And maybe with, you know, stuff we have now, maybe it's too compressed. You know, I can't say but I think it was just something about the ability for people to get to a place where they could talk about their interests or their struggles. And, you know, I guess what wasn't there was kind of the the implications like that information will be used about them or be collected or, or it had no impact. It was more about just the things we were talking about. It wasn't like this whole layer of, of, oh, now there's like a political, you know, context for everything, or someone is in there. And they're trying to manipulate me like that wasn't there at all. But back to the original question, did I have any idea where this would go? I just think from the very first, like, little small things that I remember doing. The greatest thing was was contacting someone from like another part of the world, that you would never get a chance to have that connection? and have it be a kind of this level of communication. And so, yeah, there were inklings of that, within some of the early text based dialogue systems. You think about the early when I went to University of Delaware, and in early 80s, like, there were I remember the mainframe there were like, you know, multi user games that we would play and it was just text. And so some of it like about this chapter. And the comment that Martin said was just like, you know, forgetting about how rich a text conversation could be.
10:00
Yeah, I just say two things that we need to hear right now, maybe we need to slow down and have that buffer or that wait time between conversation, one thing you posted was about it, the direct communication, but it was indirect, but it reached that community. So an interest group is like, what my jam is those communities of practice, right? So people are like, I'm invested in this community of inquiry, or this community of practice or this interest area, that that spun into things that we saw later, like meetup groups that we see that people went to, and you're talking about the 80s. But in early aughts, I used a Where are we? Where are you now? Or where are you now network and it was a traveling network. So if you were going to go and live in another country, or go somewhere else, you can ask people questions about it, because and that's like, 2004, five. So it wasn't that long ago that we didn't have all these social media spaces that we interacted in met, like, we've also flattened our communication to an extent across the globe. But has that helped us? That's a great question. I don't know, I think we need more pauses between what we write and what we think. And we don't have that anymore.
11:07
Yeah, and, you know, the BBS I mean, it's pretty much you know, now we think of it like threaded forums. And so if you think that sounds old, like, like, there are so many of them out there, they're just niche that that are thriving right now. So I'm just taking I'm looking outside at my I have a 1998, Ford F150. Like, every time I need to figure something out, like I'm looking up, I end up in this intense threaded discussion forum of Ford F150 enthusiast, and you know, that's as nice as it gets, probably. But like, there is, you know, all kinds of obviously, helpful things that you find there. But like, you know, people are brash with their opinions. They're kind, they're rude. But they're there because they love Ford, F150s. And those environments are still really fresh. And I think what often also gets forgotten about this error, or I came on, and I didn't really do much to it, but was the internet newsgroups, which was another text based discussion, sort of protocol that was available before the graphical web for people to engage in these topical interest. And you know, and some of them, you know, there were some really bad bleep that went on in them. There, there was abuse, you know, it's it's like Reddit at its worst, and its best. But it was really rich and thriving, based upon people, you know, typing words and pressing return. So it was messaging, and said that that's an interesting little error. That kind of fueled you know, you know, we're Martin gets to about what they were looking at, at the zoo. And so, you know, I could talk about the thing, the reason I jumped in with my comment about what happened at Maricopa
13:05
Yeah, please do because it's funny to hear, as you talk about, we go to these things for interest or learning. And, yeah, we have tech space for an all time hot tip to read it and others that maybe should be taken down offline these days. But it was a space for the time you went for interest, there was a little bit more anonymity. That's one thing I will call out. And some people felt safe, or maybe didn't because they were harassment. But some people went to forums for health concerns or postpartum or PTSD. We did like things that are now talked about, maybe more openly, but there were safe spaces on the web, that people could have these conversations that would feed back into a forum. But I don't know it might stop there. And this is probably where you're commenting about, like he talks about the students saying that these ways that we're communicating online are less effective for getting help tutoring, socializing and saving time, because the maybe it was a wait time, but how did you find that and your experiences?
14:02
Yeah, these answers are like, Yeah, well, everything has happened under there. But I guess, you know, the thing I always come back is, it's, it's like impossible to characterize an entire space like that. So you know, you know, people it's like, oh, well, Twitter's a burning dump fire, you know? Yeah, it is. But yeah. But like, there's so many things that happen in there that are so like, how do you deal with the fact that, you know, you can't really paint and free to say that, that means you have to read every tweet, and sort of do a meta analysis of it, which is impossible. So we all base it upon our individual experiences there. And what we know of others, I guess, you know, and I shouldn't have gone back and look at that post that Martin wrote about this. song is just because I've been sort of like doing my own bit of 20 some years ago, about when I started and You know, I didn't even know what I was walking into. And I got this job at Maricopa In fact, it was a lark I, I was totally unqualified. And my, the person who hired me, Naomi story, bless her heart, who taught me about storytelling. She thought there's something different about me.
15:18
And so if it wasn't for her, I probably I don't know where I'd be, you know, you know, some geology prof somewhere. But it mean, Maricopa, I mean, some people know about the system. But what they did, they were thinking about this stuff in the 80s. I mean, they they put in computers first, for some efficiency means, but there were Vax mainframes put on all the campuses to manage things and curriculum. But there's also people thinking about asking, like, how do we use these things, for teaching, and, you know, that's what I didn't realize about, he was like this incredible bit there. You know, we talk about stuff being driven by pedagogy, etc. But it really happened there. So the thing I mentioned, this platform, called electronic forum, was developed in 1990. And didn't come from a techie, it came from an English teacher at Glendale Community College named Karen Schwab amazing person, and I really had kind of like, want to reach out to find out where she is no, she loves motorcycles. I know that about her. She was so passionate. And she basically was really feeling like, students in our English classrooms weren't getting like enough practice, writing, just pure writing, not like firemen and writing, you get better at writing by writing and got this idea that she wanted something where students could have a journal in electronic space that they could do, you know, at home or out of class or in the computer lab. And initially, it was called the electronic journal. And, you know, and then, you know, think about, like, you know, there had to be like, she worked with an incredibly savvy tech guy named Chris Hagar, who developed this, I had to be way sort of, like create a space where only students in English 103 could communicate so and then that's very, that's like Monday now. But that was a technical task was how to separate the writings of one group from another. But some of the big components that were introduced there is that came from her is that students, right, that could write under a pen name. So you wrote about anonymity. So that was a feature of the system that came from, you know, a pedagogical standpoint. And so it really was all about wanting to, I'm looking at this article, I found, the original purpose of the journal was to improve writing skills, it was to be writing for learning rather than writing for evaluation. And here in 1990, like this is what she says, what we discovered was the journal gave a voice to silenced or marginalized students, for instance, a student who never spoke in class is very active on the journal contributing over 20,000 words in one semester. And so what they found was that this electronic journal space, which was really a place where if I remember, right, it was all text based, you know, any student of class could write something, and then other students would write in and give each other feedback. And a teacher could participate, or they could not. But they could also like, look and see and get some analytics, if you will, on the things and the ways that students were doing writing, but the whole purpose was to get them just doing more writing. But what they found was there's some incredible community effects within students in a class. So they would lend each other support, they would sort of like go off on those tangents about their interest. And so it was kind of a mix of a structured and semi structured place. And then it kind of took off because she used that she designed it for for English class, but it went on to be used if there was a teacher who was teaching legal stuff, three a name for it. But I remember reading that he really saw it because it was important for students in recognizing that 1990 that there was an importance to understand electronic communication and the legal implications of it. And what's the best way to do it do electronic communication. It became used in math. And then as it became useful at sort of like a course level at Glendale Community College and that spread to some of the other ones.
19:36
They realized that there was a need for sort of like, those are private forums. They created like these public forums as a place for people who use the system to have open conversations and there was talk about people are having these rigorous debates about science and religion. And there was talk going on there was there was some issues over tragic incident where some Please remember, this bed led supermarket had badly injured African American customer over some altercation. And so there's discussions about race and tension. And there's economics. And again, Maricopa, these are community college students. So these are students not their full time, these are students maybe taking one class at a time or taking 10 years to move through a program, working etc. And so, you know, I think when it was originally developed, you know, Glendale had sort of like this rich facility, this computing comments like, you know, the typical giant computing lab where students could walk in and use their computers, but the system was designed eventually. So it could be done with modem which technology dial up people, so they're able to do it from home, I remember some of the examples of classes that were having people could join in outside the system as guest. So the idea about bringing an expert in from, you know, the UK if there was some there. But that that became a thing. And so it became a thing that, you know, some people talk about where you sort of, you have your class, and it's a little bit, that's your community, but it becomes a little bit more porous, where you can bring in or reach out to people elsewhere. So it was early days of sort of network communication. But the beauty was that it was all it was based on text. And the whole goal was to have people do writing, which, you know, there were assignments that people that instructors probably had their students do, but I think initially, Karen's idea was this was less to be structured assignment writing space, and more for students to practice reflecting about what they're doing, or asking questions. But you know, as I went back and looked at some of those quotes, the fact that faculty were clearly recognize that, you know, they have this idea in class where everybody's participating and paying attention, and they're not like, you know, there's, you know, the people in the class who dominate the conversation, and there's the people who don't feel comfortable. And so they really found that this electronic journal, gave a place for more students to participate and evolve, and perhaps, you know, then become more discursive in class. So, it was a remarkable era, you know, they were using it, you know, I started in 92. And I know, it was, it was pretty widely used within the Maricopa system. One of the great examples is a colleague of mine at Paradise Valley Community College, Donna rabideau, who did psychology and wellness classes, she did this fabulous thing, and I use it now, she had this intro activity, and it was called the view from where I sit. And so she asked her students, and again, this was techspace, to describe the space in which they're doing this work on their computer, like, you know, right now, I'd be tiny about the rows of books on my walls and my look out the window, but they were doing this in text. And so it was a way for people to sort of give a sense to others about the place where they are in an environment where they can't see each other like you and I can easily do now. And so, I love this idea that the great interactivity of like you're doing this online work, whether COVID or not, you know, and not like, we have to be looking at that space with cameras and videos. But like, what's important about that space, like, you know, you know, you pulled your curtain behind you, but I was like, looking at the furniture, but, you know, you surround your personal space, you know, with things that are important to you, I got pictures of dogs and rocks and stuff that used to, you know, these personal spaces are important. And so the fact that they were doing this as text, as a way for students to get to know each other was really brilliant. And I'm pretty sure, you know, I remember people using electronic form pretty widely into the big 90, maybe the late 90s. At Maricopa, I'd have to check some of that.
24:19
But you know, there's a lot, I want to go on and talk about some of the other movements that went on there. But I just lucked out so much later, I just, I actually I literally fell into this job and it was probably one of the most innovative places in terms of thinking about technology and, and, and teaching learning and social awareness and connectivity. And not just the technology part and I couldn't I couldn't be more lucky. Dice on me in that interview in 1992.
24:58
All that you said is remember So this is not the only episode in between the chapters that people are really hopeful, maybe nostalgic, maybe thankful for where we started in a pioneering space of space, we didn't know that was going to mean something. And these textual interactions, and I love the equity that comes out of that the inclusion that we think about it, when we introduce that to our learners. All of this was the basics that we got started with. And it only challenges me to think, did we mess this up somewhere by converting BBs into like a discussion forum, putting into the learning management system and requiring it to be graded because that rating aspect of describing where you are and I like that Allen's like trying to scribe I mean, like my world of Oz curtain, it's just a sound buffer, it's not to hide my background point of information listening. Yeah. And it's, it's just like, it's funny to get to know people. And I think this will spin out, as I talked to folks about the blog chapter, but just the textual idea coming from someone who loves, like you do media, like we love audio, and video and storytelling and the narrative, but what does the narrative look like in text only if you had to describe it, it offers people a space to think more, it offers people that maybe not what maybe don't speak the same language as their initial languages, Why think about, it gives an access point of somewhere else to write the word scene or where they are seeing in the class. And yeah, there's different different pedagogies behind that, and why we do that, but maybe we don't do that enough anymore. And asking for just the text, I don't know.
26:36
It could be I mean, to me, it also, for me as the lyrics I'm doing, you know, I'm doing the cognitive, the mental work of imagine it, as I see it. And so, first of all, video is just too easy to show. It's way easy. There was you know, and I love audio and audio always gets a short shrift, although we're doing a podcast thing. But, and, but doing audio storytelling, when I was doing ds 106 was like the thing that people dreaded the most, they didn't understand it, they mostly feared the sound of their own voice, which everybody does. Sure. And but there was, you know, and our, you know, our example for studying this was This American Life. And, and, you know, it wasn't just about the the greatness and quality of their shows, but it was their storytelling approaches. And there was an episode, I vividly remember where they were covering this high school in Chicago, that had this rash of murders, committed by students, there's violence or guns in the high school, and I can't remember where but I arcos was talking about it, and he's like, it'd be too easy to do this video, I can show you what the school looks like, I can show you what the hallways look like, I can show you the neighborhood. But he says, in audio, we have to suggest it, we have to sort of build the setting through ambient sounds to the things that people say. And that means the listener, it's easy, because I can just watch the video and see what the school looks like. But when I'm listening to the story, I'm building my own mental image of it. And whether it's right or wrong, doesn't even matter. But that when done, well should be more engaging. And it's not like to say I'm like, Oh, we just need to go back to text only and write letters and things like that. No, I loved the media. But there's so much, sometimes we think we get overwhelmed with like how much media we can do. And, you know, I love sometimes more working with, you know, media that has limitations and figuring out the creative ways around it. And so that's what was going on with, you know, the BBs error and the fact that you know, you know, at the, at Martin University, the Open University, they were trying to say, like, you know, what are the affordances of this technology that people are using now that we can put to use? And so yeah, whether the discussion forum, you know, I don't think it matters, whether I don't think the LMS is, you know, there's a lot of problems, you know, and I hate the LMS as much as the next person. But it doesn't mean it can't have good discussions. It's, it's the things that we do in there. So, you know, if we're doing the, you know, comment post and reply three times this week. Well, as a student, I'm like, Oh, I'm just gonna go through the motions here. Rather than like, wait a minute, I'm like, lost in this engagement about, you know, the, you know, the meritocracy of you know, of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think when people kind of get drawn into something, and lose the fact that they're there because it's an assignment or you Are that thing where you you do a web search for something. And then like way at the bottom of the page, there's a link to something that sounds interesting. And then oh, yeah, and it's a rabbit hole. And so, you know, my friend down a rabbit, if I mentioned, she did this great thing, where you do these presentations in the mid 90s, about how wonderful the web was. And she said, like, next time you go looking for something on the internet, write down what you're looking for, on a sticky note and put it on the side of your computer, forget about it, set a an egg timer, 10 minutes later, see where you are, and how far you got from that. It was, it was like, it's so classic of her. But, you know, I'm working on a project now where someone thinks like, Oh, don't put hyperlinks in, that'll be a distraction to people, and they'll go away. And I'm like, wait a minute, it's a web, like, you know, that's the whole purpose is to make people be able to find those, those rabbit holes. And if we don't construct or create experiences, that have those doorways for people to get out and wander, or just missing out on so much.
31:08
I love that you put on narrative as textual and audio. So we're both biased because we're big audio files as well. So I know this from Alan, he mentioned DS106. For anyone listening, it's digital storytelling 106 was part of a curriculum. And then I envisioned a small pirate ship as you had a pirate radio station as well, that gets handed off to different people. But it's a way that people, you brought narrative to the audio side, you brought voice and you brought music, and you brought other things that were really cool. And I was like, Man, I wish they had a pirate ship that they could sail over and pick me up. And I joined the pirate radio station myself. So yeah, like it's,
31:47
it's just out there. Yeah, the the main group project when we taught it was to do a radio show. And do it as a group. And those are the most brilliant, the one I remember the most was these students from University of Mary Washington. Their radio show was about the dysfunction of group projects. So they had every every trope, there was like the girl who just talked too much, and just rambled on and on and got everybody distracted. Then there was the the guy who didn't do anything and showed up drunk. And it was funny, it was brilliant, because they took the assignment. And they made it a meta level thing about it was a group project. And the show was about everything that's bad about group projects. And I love that they did that. You know, we didn't do that. And so the thing that worked in Deus one or six, it wasn't like, there were assignments and things that we asked students to do. But there's room for them to deviate, or to reinterpret how they did it, and it wasn't really prescribed. And that's really liberating. You know, at the same time, it's easy to say, Well, yeah, that's a class about creativity and media, you know, why can't I can't do that. Now algebra. bs was always the way to do that. In my high school math teachers, Mr. Wits did that, you know, yeah, we're learning calculus. But you know, all of a sudden, he'd be teaching us like, you know, what it means? That's how you build bridges. You know, you can't have those giant cables without doing the calculus. And so they're, they're good teachers always create those, you know, whether the rabbit holes or portals, or opportunities.
33:29
Yeah, how can you learn about economics, you can play Monopoly, as my economics teacher in high school said, what maybe my father as well. We'll talk about that one later. And also like, how do you learn probability and it could be gambling, it could be chance and choice. And I think what's really neat about this initial chapter being like one of the first foundations is saying, there is possibility with Bolton board systems that did lay the groundwork for people to challenge by choice. And sure text was one way. But if you have textual discussion now, two people have ways that they can interpret an assignment interpret a conversation, communication, and we can now we didn't back then but the possibility and one of the challenges, I'd say that stagnates that post one comment three, is that grading aspect? Like if you're evaluating it, for that text based communication? Is that really something you need to evaluate? And should that be really what participations about or communications about and I don't know, I think that's a good call out that I, unless we have more of the ungraded movement out there. I don't know if it's a hard it's a hard sell to some teachers or like, I just need to know how to do the evaluation of the student. What are some lessons Do you think like Martin talked a little bit about and thinking about this infrastructure of just back and forth communication, and this was really, I think you put it as he did to the open and close communication or it's just the direct communication. It's expanded a lot and I think like this is how we met on, as we said, Twitter. And we were really hopeful then and I still am, that it's not all a dumpster fire and it's not all terrible. It's been co opted by some bad actors, but that happens in a lot of places. So it's, I don't know if I always blame the medium. It's awful sometimes. Look at us Zuckerberg and Facebook. But I will say like, are we thinking about ways that we would value some of these BBS? foundational things now and I guess you said at once it's like about storytelling in different ways. I love that you brought up This American Life like radio, old school radio, listening on the sea, I'm a CBC listener, Kinane broadcast radio to podcast that we're hearing. Do you see some of these foundations being played out? Today?
35:46
I again, like how do I see it all? Yeah, thanks, I and it's too easy to sort of like lock it down to the medium or the form, you know, on Twitter. So a lot of it is just the struggle, or the dana boyd talked about it being, you know, private in public spaces. So, summit is a way you know, people invent code language to talk about things, you have to be in to understand what's going on. It's probably more more of a challenge. And so I don't know if the answer is necessarily like, Oh, we need more private spaces or more public spaces, I think we just have to, like, add our own levels, and the way we teach and model or figure out ways that within the dumpster fire, we can have, you know, some great circle dances or things. So, you know, and so it's too easy to get caught up in everything that That's horrible. And, and forget about, because usually, I mean, you know, the stuff that is horrible gets way more attention. Then the small everyday things that happen when someone just reaches out and says, like, I don't know something about what you said, or makes me feel like you're a little bit concerned about the future. Or, you know, my grandmother had that my grandmother, you know, collected the same sort of like, you know, patch quilts or the fact that like, this just happened, okay, you know, my question thing is, is photography and so I Flickr photos, like, someone came across a picture I posted like eight or nine years ago, that alone of this, I was at Ufw and I printed out our Timo and helped me print out a 3D butterfly. Because my mom who had passed away had to sing about butterflies. Presenting, you know, when you see a butterfly represents, you know, a loved one who's passed on is coming back to reassure you and it was very sweet. Like, wait, Mom, I don't believe in that stuff. But but maybe I do, because, you know, you see a butterfly and so I just like posted that story with the audio clip. And someone I don't know, I don't know where she is. just wrote a comment on this picture that's like eight or nine years old, about how it was an interchange she had with her daughter, who had seen a butterfly and her mom was asking you, you know, why do you you know why so interested in his butterfly, like a typical mom daughter conversation, her daughter said something about, you know, Grandma told me every time you see a butterfly, think of me. And like, I almost cried like, this person doesn't know me, like, but they they reached out and you know, maybe it's a bit about the way that whatever it is, whether it's the text or game, ban, Tick Tock,
38:45
that we just have a little bit of expose vulnerability or, or just do something at a person to person scale, instead of this, kind of trying to blast the message like, you know, so, you know, I probably delete more tweets, I start writing about the current political situation, because it's just like, this isn't gonna do anything. And then I felt like I'm crazy. Or just like, it doesn't make a difference. And, and so I think if we kind of, if more of us could just step away from sort of, like all the yelling and screaming, and do more of just having, you know, smaller conversations in the big public space. You know, I think that's a step. I always think like with any of the things, even if it's a freakin LMS, or everything's locked up, and it's scrutinized and collected, and data analyzed. There's always creative ways to kind of like, subvert that space to do something that maybe they've been planned for that wasn't designed or just to use your voice in the spaces. So I kind of think like, going back to like, what I thought was going to happen is this Like, yeah, in some ways, I'm still the sarcastic, kind of like, guy who thinks he's really funny or clever. But like, I don't think like the space changes me I, I kind of feel like, I'm gonna be the same or somewhat core part of me, whether I'm, you know, writing you an email, whether we're having this conversation in zoom, whether we're going back by some text messaging, there's elements of, it's not like our full identity, but there's some kind of, you know, US sness, that gets transmitted. And that worked very well in BBS is because there wasn't much else you could do except pick up a phone and call someone or write them a letter. And like, wait a minute, there's a way we can sort of like, you know, Converse, kind of in a public space, with more than just you and I, but like, you know, imagine there were, you know, 200 people who could chime in on this conversation, but not at the same time, which would be impossible to hear.
41:04
It's what we do already. Like, it's funny, the spin off of you putting yourself in a flicker is a great example. Because that does share more of you and I have account to I've been loving that for that community. But our blogs, we do this in, we pop in more personal than not. And when you are open and open and sharing a little bit about your thinking about not just the this is the thing I do, but this is about me, people like those are the most prominent blog posts. So I even think about what's the current discussion board that I'm stuck with it work is slack. And we just moved to it. And I was like, I hate slack. But then I was like, oh, there's a photo interest group. I'm so like, I'm gonna go to that slack thread and that channel, because you're right, people will go to the spaces that intrigues them that they want to learn from or that they're like, wow, I just learned a bit more about this person themselves, and you're developing rapport. So I love that you brought that up, because I think that's really what attracts people to meet one another. And it is social, even if it is in that old electronic forum, or discussion, BBS format. I think if you say something, or show something, or bring something that conversation space, it, it signifies who you are. And even a piece of you like you said, it doesn't have to be all of you. does have to be TMI, but it does have to be like you. So how many times and you've had this before people meet, you're like, oh, you're really like you are online, and you're like, how else am I supposed to be like people said to me, like, oh, you're actually you and I went, I can't be anyone else. But it does remind me that not everyone shows up that way. So I think I value Martin writing about this in terms of a way to create socialization, interaction, it was early day for me back in 1994. And now it's almost a requirement to put yourself out there in a different way. And I like still the fun sarcastic banter. snarkiness. And I'm grateful for Martin doing this letting me have conversations about this work and what we think of, are there questions that you would ask to know about this chapter that wasn't included? That maybe we could say, in an edit? Or we could speak to? Oh,
43:13
oh, I don't know, no, I didn't do my homework, I think about like, like crushes. You know, there wasn't like, you know, it, it all made sense to me. And, you know, he, he had a couple things like, I wasn't really familiar with the platform that he worked with. So, you know, question would just be, you know, like, you know, obviously, I'm a little curious to think about what else was going on in the space, you know, in the early 90s. And I'll certainly link for this. But if you mentioned this resource by Jason Scott, he basically has a database of all bulletin board systems, it's like, I don't know, 30 or 40,000 of them, and you can look them up by area code, because there are different cities that you can you start to dive in there, and you go down these little holes, and you sort of see these little groups of things. And then also you think about, like, there is a massive amount of communication going on. And, and no one can say they know it all. And so there's some of that, that sense about, like, some things possibly getting lost as we moved into these larger giant pools of communication and whether, you know, and includes like, you know, like, you know, I almost like jump up in the air when I see like a valuable positive YouTube comment because like, wait a minute, that never happens. But it does, it does. I can't say that. But it doesn't mean like a space is all bad and all good and so I get way more good things that I get a Twitter than bad I still do and you know, oh, yeah. Because, you know, you know, I'm privileged or whatever that kind of thing. It's like, I think no, if you if you kind of like, kind of operate in it at maybe sometimes at the personal level, think about like, you know, yeah, and the things that go on between the private level direct message or, but you can have those private messages in public to like, you know, so you know, you can mention something, I can tweet something, I'll do it to Clint a lot. And like, probably Ellie, and I know about that. Yeah, insane in public is kind of fun, in a way. And maybe that's just my thing. So some of this is just about, like, you know, I don't, you know, I don't want to glorify the BBs era, but there was something about it, that kind of at least set the stage for the things that came next. And it made sense, you know, to stop because it was difficult to do the, you know, to connect those things they were, you know, they were not really, you know, run by like TCP IP standards. So the technology might have been flighty. Maybe it wasn't. But like getting away from the technology level, the fact that it led this place for people to come together, again, drawn by an interest. And so, you know, in Twitter, you could say like, Well, you know, where's the interest groups? Like, is it a hash tag? No, not really, because hash tags get used for multiple purpose. So I think it becomes in those in the BBS days, it was originally defined, because that was a limitation of the platform, like you couldn't get everybody to see the same BBS you had to know the phone number. If, if you were in Seattle, and wanted to participate in my bbs in Miami, you'd have to pay long distance phone calls. So there was some forced creation of these groups that probably provided some level of safety and comfort. And so how can that happen now in a place where like, everybody can sort of possibly see what you're talking about. So I think it just means the technology itself doesn't provide us those comfortable, like separate rooms, or bubbles. We have to sort of figure out how to do it within our own behavior. And that's harder. And you know, it's easier to get drawn in and slide off and, and then just say, oh, screw this on deleting my account again. Which I've never done. But
47:40
yeah, no, that reminds me like, you're right. I'm really excited to get this student's documentary because I'm a archivist at heart and net nog refer. So I would say right forum used to be a bit more intimate. And we could still have that level of community and its Missy and conversation, if you choose to. And that just reminds me that you're right. We can't forget what BBS brought us even today. Um, maybe it's not a hashtag. Or maybe we're just not sharing our secret hashtags with you, Alan, but maybe we will. But I'll definitely include a couple of the things you mentioned in the Notes for this episode, because I think it's worth thinking back to what was versus what is, and where do we want to be part of those communication spaces today, and maybe it's what we create and make the most of in public and maybe private forums. That is really how I'm thinking about it. So thanks for bearing this like BBS around a bit. Seems like an old topic but still relevant. I think.
48:37
It was fun.
48:39
You've been listening to between the chapters with your host Laura Pasquini. For more information for to subscribe to between the chapters and 25 years of edtech visit 25 years dot open ed.ca