Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Convos with the creative folk shaping the arts and culture in the San Francisco Bay Area. Hosted by Shawna Vesco Ahern.
[00:00:00] This is an art. Yap. It is an art. Yap. We're talking art. Yap. Ity y art.
Artfully, artfully, artfully, artfully. Yap. Yap. Yap. It's time.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Today on Art Yap. I'm talking with someone whose mind seems to run on two beautifully interwoven tracks, sharp crystalline analysis and expansive creative instinct. Lauren Frankel is a musicologist turned non-profit arts worker, turned data nerd turned cultural strategist, and honestly, she's one of the most interesting arts workers I've talked to in a long time.
[00:01:00] She loves spreadsheets and opera with equal devotion. She brings order to artistic chaos without ever dolling it, and she's a systems thinker who never forgets the humans inside the system. I first encountered Lauren's work live at a San Francisco Arts Commission community meeting, and the more I learned, the more fascinated I became.
Her path moves from a scrappy performing arts high school to studying music history at Yale, to working with the Kronos Quartet to leading audience insights and impact evaluation at YBCA, all the way to her current role at a MS planning, where she helps arts organizations and cities think about their cultural futures with intention and clarity.
Her doctoral research dives into how nonprofit structures literally shape the music we hear today. Not metaphorically, but structurally, financially, artistically in her consulting work. Now lets her zoom all the way out again, looking at systems, communities, buildings, behaviors, and possibilities. In this episode, we talk about growing up creative, [00:02:00] discovering musicology through a woman in music class.
Her piano teacher encouraged her to take. Finding herself inside the very nonprofit structure. She once studied doing on the ground impact work during the pandemic, and what it feels like to help organizations design futures that give creativity room to thrive. Let's get into it.
~Okay. So~ welcome to Art Yap. Thank you. And thank you so much for coming on the show. I. I feel like you are the perfect art gap candidate because you have such a behind the scenes job, but maybe you're so behind the scenes that my message to you on LinkedIn was like super random.
You probably don't get a ton of media requests. No, definitely not. Yeah. Um, so today we're here with Dr. Lauren Frankel. Do you use doctor? Was that like totally random? I never do, I never do either. Yeah. Why is that? Is it 'cause like you don't want people to think you're a medical doctor?
Lauren Frankel: I, yeah. I, I feel like I was raised in some way.
I don't know, like who told me, but I feel like at, at some [00:03:00] age, I, you know, learned that, um. Doctors for medical doctors. Yeah. And that if you say doctor, when you're not a medical doctor, you're really just confusing people. And you know what you are is comma PhD. Yeah.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: You're on the plane. They're like, is there, is there a doctor on the plane?
And you're like, of musicology. Right.
Lauren Frankel: Exactly. Like you don't wanna be in a situation where like you name's a doctor and then someone's like, so help. And you're like, I really can't actually not gonna be able to help like that if we need a playlist right now. No. Right.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Yeah. Um, it's so, it's funny like Art Yaps been on a bit of a hiatus.
I've been busy and just kind of feeling bleh. And so I decided like, okay, I'm just gonna not do more art apps for the rest of this year. Mm-hmm. But I still wanted to stay engaged with the arts. And so I saw that San Francisco Arts Commission community meeting and I was like, okay, cool. Like I'll go out to that.
We'll just keep engaged. You we're not gonna be like creatively producing. And then you were there and I didn't think too much of it. I was like, oh, this is [00:04:00] cool, like people leading this meeting and you were. Asking us questions and we were using that app and typing our answers and kind of breaking off into groups.
And it was cool and it was fun. And we were discussing, um, you know, the unification of all the arts agencies in San Francisco, the grants for the Arts SAC itself, and then film commission. And so there were lots of like opinions flying and lots of vibes flying. And somewhere along the way in the middle of it, someone said, they were like, well, and how much do you get paid?
Like as consultants like to be there doing strategy? And then other people were like, yeah, here, here. Like, what are they paying you? And I thought, well, that's. It's getting spicy in here over like strategic planning. Um, and then I was kind of poking around on the internet about who you were and you were with Bill.
Mm-hmm. And I was like, wow, you know, you worked at YBCA, you come from a nonprofit background, like, oh, you have doctoral research in like nonprofit structures. I was like, first of all, everyone, this is an arts job. [00:05:00] That's great. We should be like applauding. Job. Secondly, it's like a weird arts job that's even better.
It's like a random, weird, cool job. And so all of a sudden I decided like, okay, art Yap needs one more episode this year. And it's you. Aw. Yeah. Well, thank you. Um, and so like, I don't know, I dunno where you wanna start. Just like you work for a s planning and research. Yes. Um, and I don't know what your title is.
I think you're like a project and research lead or something. Um, yeah, it's actually of, um. It's research lead. Mm-hmm. But I'm a project manager, like in our, in our categorization. So I'm, I, I manage, uh, consulting projects. Mm-hmm. And I also do some, um, like we, uh, we do a lot of surveys, things like that. So there's some like, work behind the scenes that's not for a specific project that's kind of like, oh, you know, we're working on our survey templates and controlling our.
Survey software and stuff. And so I [00:06:00] sort of take that on as like I'm the research lead. Very cool. I, I also now follow you on LinkedIn and I saw the post, um, announcing, I think Bill's new job title. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, we just announced that. Yeah. That's very cool. And it, and it said too, like it gave a little bit of the history and it said it's 37 years old.
Mm-hmm. There's been like 1300 projects. Mm-hmm. And 16 billion in capital investments across the culture sector, helping organizations clarify purpose, measure success, and create lasting impact. And so I thought that is very cool. I didn't realize like. I mean, you said there's 14 of you on staff, but like this is a huge impact like across the nation?
Yes. Yeah. And And in Canada. And in Canada. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So like when you were a little girl with your pigtails and people would ask you, what do you wanna be when you grew up, you said a research lead for strategic arts and culture planning. [00:07:00] No. Um, you know, I remember when I was, um. When I was in high school.
Mm-hmm. And actually, and I was thinking about wanting to go to college and like, you know, what should I study? Um, actually my, um, my thoughts on that topic were like. I wish I was the type of person that had always known what I wanna be. Mm-hmm. Because I feel like I knew I, I was, I was like in the arts already in high school, you know?
Right. I went to a charter school for the arts. There were like 250 of us and we were very, very scrappy and um, you know, so I was around like people that wanted to do art and we were. Like, you know, 15 at it, you know? So did you do like all music or like performing arts or like a mix of visual arts or? I, I did like music and some performing arts.
Um, uh, music is a performing arts. Sorry, I did like music and like musical theater. Okay. You know, like a [00:08:00] little bit of acting without music involved. Mm-hmm. Um, there was like a dance program there too and, you know, a lot of ceramics and film and, and people just making a lot of visual art that would be up on the walls all the time.
Mm-hmm. And, and I. I really liked it and I used to think, you know, like, I wanna go to a place where there's just always really bad art up on the walls, you know, because it's just like, whatever everyone made last week, like, here it is. This is the vibe I want for my life. Yeah. It was welcome. Kind of like, well, welcome to Art.
Yeah. And welcome to Wall Box Gallery. I identify with the story, but I, you know, so I was around all these people that are like, I am gonna be a dancer. You know, I, I'm gonna be a writer. Like, I know that I wanna do these things. And even though I was really. Into, you know, music. Mm-hmm. And that's what I did.
I didn't feel like I knew like exactly what I wanted to do. Mm-hmm. You know, and so I, I remember just having this feeling of being like, I just really wish I was one of those people that always knew what I wanted to do. It's like so late in my life. I'm like, 18. I'm, I'm 18. It's, [00:09:00] it's just too late to start a new career.
Exactly. Basically. Yeah. So, so I, I was like, ah, I'm just really behind on this. Yeah. Um, but then actually. Then like the flip side of that, that guess the funny story is what ended up happening is, um, I had a piano teacher mm-hmm. Um, who taught at Arizona State. Um, and not that I was actually very good at playing piano, but, um, she, she gave lessons to even other people 'cause she was very nice.
Um, but she taught in the summers a, um, a summer school class called Women in Music. That was a musicology class. You know, she's a piano professor, but she would teach this music history survey and sort of, it was, um, covered all of the, you know, so women in the musical canon kind of started with Hildegard funding and you know, and you go through like Fannie Mendelssohn and Claire Schumann and That's so cool.
Like, you know, the greatest hits, um, know that's exactly where my brain starts. Women in music get [00:10:00] tickled. Um, and so. She, she was like, you know, you seem like you're interested in this stuff. Would you like to take my summer school class? Mm-hmm. Um, and so I took that when I was in high school and that was actually, um, that was when I learned that musicology existed.
Mm-hmm. You know, that it was a thing and what it was. And I was like, oh wait, you get to write about music? Mm-hmm. Like. You get to be like, you're doing music, but you're also doing writing and you don't have to be like performing the music to a really high level. Right. And, you know, on stage all the time.
And, um, and it's also world history and then other languages and politics and it's, I mean, all these things together in musicology. Yeah. When I, when sort of describing like why I liked music history, I would tell people I think that music and people are the two most interesting things in the world.
Mm-hmm. Um, and so music history is just, it's about music and people. Mm-hmm. You know, it's about how did the music happen, you know, who [00:11:00] did the music? Like what effect did it have on things, you know? Yeah. It's not just the music, right. It's like, how is Musicing, like how is music influencing the world and being influenced by the world, and like what effect is it having around it?
And it's not just ornamental and it's not just for like, yeah, no, and it's not just entertainment or consumption. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not just like, oh, I like the way it sounds, you know? Right. Why does it sound so good? You know? Like, it's not that, you know, for four years, you know? So, um, yeah. So actually the weird thing is by the time I went to undergrad, I did decide, I said like, I wanna study music history.
Mm-hmm. And so I went to school specifically for music history, which was actually a little bit. Weird. It turns out like they had a music history four year degree. Mm-hmm. But it was actually mostly something that people would go for performance and then be like, oh, I actually like the music history part of this, because most people just didn't know Right.
When they're 18, that that was even a field. Yeah. You [00:12:00] know, but they, they do performance and then they find out that it's a field and then they wanna major in it. Mm-hmm. Um, but I sort of just came in and was like, no, it's, it's history. That's what I do. And how did that land with your family too? What would, um.
I, I feel like it was unsurprising, like, well, I mean, yeah, like we went to the Scrappy Performing Arts High School, so they must have known that. Yeah. They were like, this all tracks, like everything. Were they ever worried about like, how are you gonna. Connect this to capitalism or how are you gonna turn this into a career where they were just like, go find yourself.
Do what you love. I was just such a, I was just such a, like, I'm gonna be an academic. Mm-hmm. I was like, I'm gonna get a degree in music history and then I know that in order to actually like have a, like the, what you do with music history is you're a professor. Right, right. Right. Um, I mean, I kind of feel that way about my literature PhD.
Like that's what you do with it. That's what you do. Yeah. Yeah. So actually like my, like really changing everything I wanted to do about my life. Like came after I [00:13:00] finished my PhD and I was like, oh, I don't actually wanna be a professor, but like for I, when I was like, mom, dad, I'm gonna get a degree in music history and like in 20 years I'll be a college professor.
So See, you got it all ironed out. Yeah. So that's interesting 'cause then your doctoral work, which I went ahead and read your abstract, did not read the whole thing. I'm just gonna tell you, um, it's so neat that, I dunno, you have such a crazy arc. So you start talking about like the funding structures in the United States and other places mm-hmm For new music and how things like the nonprofit structure.
Nonprofit structure. It's hard to say. It's, um. It completely changes even what we're listening to and how we listen to music. Mm-hmm. Like right now. Mm-hmm. That's an insane project. Mm-hmm. And like the kind of research you did and you used like Kronos Quartet and a couple of others. Oh, I, no, I, my, my actual dissertation research was entirely in Finland.
Okay, great. So I worked for Kronos when, uh. [00:14:00] When I moved, uh, to San Francisco. Mm-hmm. And they're a good example though of like going Yeah. Turning themselves into a nonprofit, right? Yeah, they are. I mean, they're actually one of the, um, the sort of, uh, first chamber music ensembles to. To realize that path mm-hmm.
You know, to sort of figure out that this is an opportunity and this is how we can do it. Mm-hmm. And they're, they've been in Incre, I mean, they've been incredibly influential in musical ways in the world, but actually they were also incredibly influential in the US in, um, funding model structure. You know, the idea that you would be, that the way to be a small ensemble is to be a non-profit.
Mm-hmm. That's, um, that's pretty much like in the Kronos Quartet lifetime. And I did not know that until I studied for this episode of Art Yap. The only thing I knew about Kronos Quartet is that in 2000, they were responsible for making me cry in a movie theater. Oh yeah. For the first time in my life with Recre for a dream.
Yeah. [00:15:00] Um, which by the way, not to like sidebar this, but my friend from high school, Marette Martinez. Mm-hmm. We went to the Alexandria on Gary when it still existed. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we saw a double feature. We did Rec Rec for a Dream and we did Bjork's Dancer in the Dark in the same Day Day. I was gonna, I thought they, and I got my first migraine was like the same, was like the same, they were like the same movie basically in like different weird ways.
Yeah. Sat there for like six hours. Just sobbing with all this like, wonderful music behind us. Yeah, it's, I mean, that is one that is a definite Kronos greatest hit moment. Um, and. Someone, someone used, um, a part of that soundtrack for their time for a dance on Dancing With the Stars. Mm-hmm. A while ago. I don't know about that.
They had to get it like, yeah. Proved they're like, this is my pump up music. And um, yeah. We all, you know, we were like, okay, we gotta watch this clip. It was really funny. So, that's so weird though. So then, like you're writing about funding structures. They kind of are a living [00:16:00] example of turning into it.
And then you worked there. Was it weird going from the land of theory where you're thinking about this into the land of practice where you're doing like, development work for them? Or did it feel like a good marriage? Um, well it was, so it was just really interesting. So my, my dissertation, um, was about Finn Music.
Mm-hmm. Right. So it's, it's about music in Finland. So I was really thinking about a completely different country, um, and not. Really thinking that much about the US' structures. I mean, not in a, like mm-hmm. Not, not as much, right. Let's just, you know, like, yeah. Not turning my attention to like, ah, but like what are we doing in the us?
Mm-hmm. So, um, when I then started working for Kronos and, and sort of, you know, being like, ah, now I'm on the inside, you know, like I'm inside the system. Mm-hmm. Um, it was just really, really interesting to start thinking about. Exactly that, the sort of like the nonprofit structure mm-hmm. And how the [00:17:00] nonprofit structure has, has changed music.
Um, because it's, it's actually not a thing so much in Finland. Mm-hmm. You know, to have this like, you know, oh, these ensembles are these non-profits. They don't have the same non-profit, non-profit tax structures. Right. And funding situation that we do. So I was like dealing with an entirely different funding situation.
And then I was, then I was like. Uh, having been thinking about funding structures and lenses mm-hmm. Really started thinking about, you know, oh, how does it apply? And then I really honestly was kind of like, I think I did, I did write one paper about the US structure when I was like, went off and did a conference while I was working for Kronos.
'cause I like was, I was like weaning myself off. You're like, it's a quick addendum. There you go. Yeah. It's like I can't, it like can't just go completely cold Turkey. I have to just like one other little. Conference thing, but um, it did kind of make me wish, like, oh wait, I should, I should like do a whole other thing about like the, the influence [00:18:00] that, like the idea of institutionalizing your ensembles and having the ensembles be the one that have all the agency because the one that, that's where the money is flowing through.
Mm-hmm. Because they're the ones that can fundraise. Right. You know, like they get the cash. Mm-hmm. And then they're going to the composers. And so it like that the composer ensemble relationship, you know, is obviously, um, just very different Right. 'cause of that than at like times when it's like the composer's being paid to write it, and then you just gotta find someone to play it.
Exactly. You know? But now these people are saying like, well, we want work by this composer. We wanna do this, we wanna be like that. And they're just very, very involved. Mm-hmm. You know, things are written for, um, ensembles and it's, it definitely has changed, you know. How contemporary music is, um, is commissioned, you know, how to com have contemporary music happens mm-hmm.
In the world today, like the, the nonprofit structure, sorry. In the US today. [00:19:00] Um, yeah. For our Finnish audience, we're talking about the us Well, for our one person in Finland right now, I mean, you know, it's, it's, um. It's just really interesting. I think, you know, just sort of that 20th century look, I just, I always just like to think of, you know, the scope of music history and like, through the years, you know, like where was the money, when was the money?
Mm-hmm. You know, who was, who was the point of, you know, of, um. Impetus for being able to afford to put things together. And how did you get that money together and how? Um, I feel like it was monarchy and then we don't know for centuries. And then right now we're at nonprofit and now Yeah, there's somewhere there's like the medic cheese.
Yeah. And then there's like nonprofits. Exactly. So that's the trajectory, but it's really, really different, you know? Um, and just those, those things that were art forms that, you know, have always been about like. Accumulating and displaying like power and wealth. Mm-hmm. Opera, which I love. Um, you know, like opera's never been affordable.
Right. That's like [00:20:00] literally the entire point. Yeah. Is that it's expensive, you know, like that, it's like a hard thing to do. Mm-hmm. And if you can do it. Amazing. Mm-hmm. It's like, it's so impressive. And then everyone around you will be like, wow, that is so impressively cool that you pulled that off and, you know, there was always money.
Mm-hmm. You know, various types stacking that. Now we're like, oh, figure it out yourselves. Upper companies, you know, like you raise the money and it's, it's a different world in which you're trying to produce the same art form and it has a lot of effects on the art form. And you have a lot of, you know, smaller operas, chamber operas.
You have a lot of like different ways of, um. Just imagining and thinking about art forms depending on how you're trying to fund them. And then you're in there with these high level insights on the dev team sending out your yearly requests or whatever, and then you kind of decide to go to YBCA and like zoom back out.
I would say a little bit, like more on the outside again, you went on the [00:21:00] inside, then you zoom back out. Yeah, I, I had a really good time. At both of those places. I mean, working for Kronos was so amazing. It was so fun. Um, and, uh, one thing I was really attracted to when I went to YBCA, like my job at YBCA was, um, I had like a, a.
I, I don't remember. Like there was a, it was a variety of, of titles over audience over the time. Data analytics, or it was like, uh, I think I started as like data Insights manager, which is like a very, you're like, oh, I'm managing the insights. Yeah. Like, or am I managing the data or like, what, what am I managing here?
Those insights unmanageable. Exactly. You're like, the data's fine. But the Insights. Insights. Um, and then it was like, I think a manager with like evaluation. Mm-hmm. You know, we sort of. As things evolved, you know, we were like, really what this is about is like evaluating impact. Mm-hmm. Um, but it was such a fun position, um, because it really [00:22:00] was, um, essentially it was just a gravel, it was like a, a catchall, I guess it was, um, like.
Anything that has to do with numbers. Like anytime that there's like, that's not accounting. Mm-hmm. You know, that's not like finance. Anything we're quantifying over here. Anything that you wanna quantify somewhere, like somebody needs to be, like, tracking stuff and knowing like what we're quantifying and what those numbers are and like how things are going.
Mm-hmm. And it just kind of all got put together in a, like, that's your job. You know, so any, anything that sort of new came up, we'd be like, oh, well we need to, like, here's a new program. We need to figure out, um, what impact we're gonna try and have with this program. Mm-hmm. Uh, if, how we might know if we are having that impact, how we're measuring impact at all.
Like, uh, what would, what would we need to do? Are our metrics. Yeah. What would we need to do at the start of it? Mm-hmm. That was my big thing. I would like, 'cause we started like a lot of different programs, initiative, things we're doing. And I would always be like, okay, we've gotta have, like [00:23:00] in the program kickoff, you've gotta have me.
Mm-hmm. Because that's the time. When we need to decide what you wanna measure. Because then at the end of it, when you're coming to me and you're like, Hey, what are some cool impact numbers that we could say that we did with this? And I'm like, well, did you measure this? Yeah. And you're like, no, you know, like that's gonna be a problem.
Yeah. So we would decide at the beginning. Mm-hmm. Like, well, what do we actually wanna measure? And then, you know, do we actually have a thing in place that measures on I like what year is this? Just so I can think of the tech around this is like, oh man, this was pandemic. Okay. I started in the summer of 2019.
Wow. So I had a good like. Seven months in the office. And were you, were you asking people to do 22 Google Forms? Were you asking them like, yeah, I mean, one, that, one that, um, I can think of that was a, a fun project was, um, it was a pandemic, um, it was a pandemic project and we had, uh, it [00:24:00] was the, um, uh, I can't remember if it was called the San Francisco.
It was the creative Core. Mm-hmm. Was this model program that now there's like the California Creative Core, right? They were like, oh yeah. You know, we'll, we should all have a creative core. Um, but it was like, in this instance, you know, it was, um, it was pandemic era and it was pro-vaccine. Hmm. And it was, um, very much current, uh, social distancing.
Mm-hmm. So the program, like the project that people were gonna use the artists for, they were like, okay, so we're gonna get a bunch of artists together, we're going make sure the artists are getting paid. You know, like what's some work that artists can be doing that's like helping society right now? So they were, um, community health ambassadors.
Okay. And they would go out the public Elissa did this and Elisa did it. Yes. Yes. She was Art Yap. Episode two. Yes. Anna Elisa was the project manager for it. And, um, she was coordinating all of these artists and they would go out into the [00:25:00] public mm-hmm. And, um, do, uh, all sorts of different sort of like street art, performance art, uh, social distancing, awareness raising.
Very cool. Very, like there was one that had, she would. Skate around with like this butterfly costume. She had these but huge butterfly wings. Mm-hmm. You know, on her arms. And so she was like, about, she was like, you know, six feet of social distancing and just like cutting these paths of like, you know, the butterfly wings.
And so it was a wild time. Um, but so at the beginning of that, there were like, um, we've got like, I think there was a grant involved. You know, there was, there was, we're gonna have reporting requirements. Um, there was definitely reporting that had to be done. I was like, we've got this money. We're gonna have to tell people what did we do?
Was it cool? Right. And, um, I remember, you know, working with Annalisa and we're talking and we're like, okay, so we need to like, have some idea, we need to measure something, we need to measure something, we need to like figure out some, like what are we gonna measure guys? Yeah. And we're like, well we need to like measure how many people are being [00:26:00] like, you know, what's the impact on the community?
Like, how many people in the community are like having some. Relationship with this. Mm-hmm. And we're like, okay. Like literally the only way we would know that is like the community health ambassadors are the only ones that have like any idea. Mm-hmm. Because they're, they're like traveling. Right. You know, during the day they're like going through Golden Gate Park.
Yeah. They've got roots. They've, it's like a whole, they're not just putting on a show in some spot. Mm-hmm. You know, and we'd have just like, it's the middle of the pandemic. We have no idea how many people are out on the street. Yeah. We don't have like a Hmm. That block of market. Yeah. We're estimating like a hundred people per hour.
Like no, no. Yeah, we've got nothing. So we designed a little survey, um. Like, uh, uh, more of a form, more of a Google form. I think it literally was a Google form, might have been SurveyMonkey. Okay. Um, that the community health ambassadors would fill out every shift. Mm-hmm. Like, they would go and do their shift, and at the end of it, they would fill out this little thing.
You know, it was like, where, you know, who are you? Where did you go today? Mm-hmm. And like [00:27:00] about how many people, and if they'd hit multiple locations, we had just like, like. Ranges, right. You know, were like, you know, it was like one to 50, you know, like this many to this many Did you see today? Um, you know, we interacted with you today.
It was some, you know, some kind of like, not just, they were also there, but you know, they like saw your message. Right. Um, and we just had, like, we collected all of those at the end of every shift. And then we put together when we, when we did our final report, you know, we had all sorts of different, you know.
Qualitative, you know, pieces that Analisa was in control of. But we had that piece of information where we could kind of say like, you know, here are the places they covered and the times they were, um, you know, times people were out and they, we know that they impacted this many people. Mm-hmm. You know, and we have like this.
Pretty decent estimate because it was like the eyes report, right. Of all the people doing it. And um, and then where does this go? Does it go into like planning new things? Does it just go, because we got grant money, now we have to [00:28:00] report back? Like, I mean that really varies, right? I think where does that impact actually come from?
Yeah. Yeah. I think in some cases you're kind of saying like, well, we need to justify for, you know. Mm-hmm. If it's like a one time thing and then you need to do a report on it, you're saying like, Hey. For you guys who gave us money, you can say, yes, that worked. You know, so for, um, I think you gotta think about your reporting chain in a couple ways, right?
Because sometimes, like you are telling the funder. Yes, we had an impact. That means that that funder looking at evaluating what they're doing can say, we gave money to a program like that and it had an impact, so we should give more money to programs like that. Right. Might not be you again. Right. Right.
Might be someone else. Mm-hmm. But they're, they're kind of judging, like, are we making good funding decisions? Mm-hmm. Because all we really cared about was we gave you this money and then like. Some people were impacted. Right. You know, like, not like it didn't just sit there and you didn't just like, do nothing with it.
Something happened, or like, we did this [00:29:00] huge thing and like five people came, you know, like, they're like, Hmm. Like maybe that's not what they wanna mm-hmm. Put their money into. And then there's also the for you side, when you're like, okay, maybe that's not what we wanna put our money into. Mm-hmm. Like, maybe we wanna do things like, maybe we wanna put our effort into areas where we're.
Or maybe it's not that it's about more people. Maybe, you know, whatever you happen to be evaluating. Mm-hmm. It might sometimes not be about numbers. Um, I think for us it was also useful. Those reports were useful during the course of the program because they also kind of contained the. Community health ambassador's, thoughts on like, this was a good area to visit or not visit, or like, let's not do this again.
It was like a way for them to kind Yeah. Feel like they'd kind know, they would really know. It was a way for us to like get regular communication from them about how it was working for them. Mm-hmm. So it was also kind of like a in real time for Analisa right. Evaluation tool, you know, like here's the notes from the day.
Like, oh, this area is like an. It's not, you know, there's no one there or, um, [00:30:00] like it's too crowded and we don't really feel safe. There's not enough good places for us to stop or something. Yeah. You know, it was like really just kind of. How can we help these people do the work they're trying to do and, you know, help society and also keep them safe.
Yeah. Because it was a crazy time. That's a really good feedback mechanism. 'cause it's so hard to take like a program or an idea from paper, from theory, put it out there and then to like pivot and make edits mm-hmm. And improve it. Yeah. So like all those piece, all those stages of evaluation are, are, you know, it's like that's what you're using it for is to kind of change in the moment and then look at the end and be like, well, you know, did we.
I mean, for that one it's like, you know, all these like one-offs where you're just like, well, that was kind of a moment in time. Right? But it's not gonna add up in the way other evaluative things. You know? That was, that was the position. It was like evaluating a lot of different, and also just evaluating like our attendance, you know?
Mm-hmm. Like, it was really fun because it all turned into like, oh, you need to know like, uh, numbers of shows and how [00:31:00] many people came to them. Mm-hmm. That's that over there, you know? And then like, oh, also you need to know. This, you know, how this program is going and how many people they saw out there today.
Mm-hmm. Like, that's that office over there. Um, it was just a lot of different stuff, but the connection was just like trying to, trying to put thought into like, how do we, um, monitor and evaluate what we're doing and then so that you, it's just not all going to the wind and then you're like, I don't know.
I hope it went well. Right. And then you took that though, and then it unlocked something in your brain. Where you're like, uh oh, now we need to even zoom out another level higher. Yes. I mean, that's pretty much exactly how it went. I think after working there, um, then I was kind of like, you know what's really fun though, is when you can think of the whole system, which is, I mean, it's really just going back to like the dissertation type of work.
Mm-hmm. I mean, I think I did the high level. Like, I [00:32:00] wanna think about a country. Mm-hmm. And then I was like, oh, I'm gonna be in the system. And then I was like, being in the system's fun. Mm-hmm. But you know what's really fun is like thinking about the whole system and having like a little bit of a position where you're interacting with like just a broader part of, um, with more points in a network.
So, and I know you can't talk about like, specific projects you've worked on. Yeah. But what are some elements. Of a favorite project of yours or favorite projects that like really speak to this part of you that loves this kind of thought. Like what are some of the things you like to focus on or like different things you've been asked to do that have just been like really gratifying?
Oh man. Um. Yeah, I guess now I'm, I'm thinking about projects that I'm not allowed to talk about. Um, well just don't name names. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, this is all hypothetical. It's all really hypothetical. I mean, you know, it's just client [00:33:00] con confidentiality for sure. People, you know, you don't wanna necessarily, um, speak about specific clients.
Yeah. Um, things that are sort of speak to that aspect of it. Um, well. There's a few kind of common tasks, like I said earlier, actually, we do like a lot of survey work. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that there's, um, yeah. Okay. I'm, I'm trying to think of like different things. There's some work we do that's, um, uh, so we do a lot of survey work.
Sometimes we survey like entire communities. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm thinking of a survey that we did for a client on the East coast. Um, that was like a couple different organizations. Mm-hmm. All, um, kind of pooled together and were like, you know, we wanna do a survey of this region. Um, and audiences. It was still, this was kind of a, a continuing sort of post pandemic kind of [00:34:00] moment.
Mm-hmm. Um, the pandemic was really like, it was a time for a leg audience research. Yeah. It really was. Yeah. Like everyone was very deeply interested all of a sudden. Exactly. What is everyone thinking and feeling about what they might be doing. Yeah. Like these days I do feel like there was a bit of a boom.
Yeah. There it was a lot of like, and part of it was like access, access through Zoom and like post-conference. Mm-hmm. Polls, but like Yeah. But a lot of it was just like, you thought you knew what audiences were gonna do. Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden you just had no idea. Yeah. Like you were just like going along, being like, oh yeah, we know our audience.
They, they come to this type of thing and they don't come to that type of thing and this will sell well, and this won't. And then all of a sudden it was just like zero idea. Yeah. And then coming out of it, it was like, it's all different now. Mm-hmm. You know, like, now what, what it was before doesn't necessarily seem to be applying anymore.
And like, are these just still some like, oh, we're still not quite out of it changes? Or are these like, no, it's gonna be different. Are these like permanent changes? And so we did a large scale survey. Mm-hmm. Um, but it was [00:35:00] audience work that was about that. You know, it was sort of trying to find like, are these.
Are your changes in, in, um, in attendance behavior? Are they like, do you think they are still transient or you know, like are they getting to be like, this is your new normal, was the basic, um. Not asked in that way. Well, that's what I was gonna ask. Like, so when people come to you, do they say like, find out this specific thing for us, then like you kind of go off and do it?
Or do they come to you and kind of like tell you the problem and then you kind of interpret it and then come up with your own way of finding it in your own kinds of questions? Like, I'm just so curious people have like specific things they want you to do or if they just come to you like help? Um, some of both.
Yeah. It really, really depends on the client, which is like, which is really. Also part of what's really fun about it, I mean, sometimes people wanna know something really specific. Mm-hmm. And sometimes people, exactly what you say, sometimes people are like, well, we think we kind of wanna know about this and, but I don't really know, like mm-hmm.
You figure it out, you know, like you help. Um, [00:36:00] or you know, they, they're like, oh, we think we wanna know this. And you're like, well that's gonna be really hard to find out. Like, in exactly that way. Here's some other ways that we might try and get at it. You know, like, here's what we, here's how we might wanna do this.
So there's just a lot of like research question developing. Yeah. All the time. Which is really, really fun. I also imagine like some orgs. Think they know what their problem is. Mm-hmm. But then it's actually maybe a different problem. Yeah. Yes. And then how you sort of gently mm-hmm. Let them know. Yes. That definitely happens.
Um, that definitely happens where I, I mean, and now I'm actually not thinking of a specific project, so even to anonymize, but just, uh, this sort of generic idea that. There might be like a sort of common wisdom even, you know, like in, in an organization, you know, it's like, oh, this is our problem, you know?
Mm-hmm. We've always had a problem, and I think it's because of this, you know, and then you can just kind of, the analytics don't really reflect that. Yeah. Like turn it around, you know, it's sort of like, well, you know, we've gone through [00:37:00] all your budgets and looked at things or whatever, and it sort of seems like, you know, the issue is.
It's, you know, maybe this is actually a symptom of something. Mm-hmm. Else that's happening. Or just look at it a different way. That's not the thing. It's this thing over here. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's also, that's, that's also fun, you know, just to, to be, um, I just, I, I am a very like, nonprofit worker. Right. It's like, I just wanna feel like I'm helping.
Right. You know, that's, it's just like that feeling of like, you just wanna help. And, um, and what does your output look like? Do you just hand over like raw data or do you like interpret it for them a little or? Oh, we make so many decks. Okay. Yeah, it's like a very PowerPoint heavy for sure. Um, industry.
Mm-hmm. I think that's good though. That's like part of it. We're mostly making slide decks, you know? Yeah. Like we almost never turn over. Um. I was gonna say, like for survey data, like it's often like, you know, part of it's like this is [00:38:00] confidential. Mm-hmm. So like it'll stay with us, the un aggravated version.
Mm-hmm. And then we give other people the results. Um, yeah. Sometimes we give like, whatever full analysis we've done, but my mo mostly like, nobody wants to see your Excel file of like, like scratch calculations. Yeah. Like, it's like, that's not that fun. Um, so we make a lot of, um. Just presentations, you know, we, we go through, um, the data and analysis that we're going to, and then say, you know, here's, here's what we've found, and we're actually just telling you the, you know, the synthesis.
Mm-hmm. Like the high level here, not the like. Exactly how we, do you ever get like emotionally involved in a project time? Time? Do you ever have like time secret, big feelings about something happening? Um, yes, very much. I mean, honestly I think I'm emotionally involved in all of my projects. Mm-hmm. But like, in a good way, you know, like I just get really attached to clients.
Mm-hmm. Um, [00:39:00] like as organizations you just really want them to do well. Mm-hmm. You know, like you just want it to come out. Okay. And for. If it's a strategic plan, you know, you get really invested in the idea of like, yeah, the next five years are gonna be great, you guys, you're gonna do the ride, you're gonna do this, let's watch.
You're gonna do that, you know, you're gonna soar. And you just get really into the, because that's a strategic plan is is about that kind of thinking. It's about our future. It's about being very like, you know, okay, here's how we're gonna. Achieve some level of greatness mm-hmm. Over this next period of time.
I mean, maybe that level is like, oh, we're in a huge deficit and we have a big problem. And like if we can achieve, overcome that problem, then we'll have achieved. Or maybe that is like, we're doing great, but we wanna do something like a huge leap. You know, like the distance differs of where you're trying to go, but you're always trying to plan for mm-hmm.
Some kind of step up. And I just, I think it's very hard to be around. That kind of energy and planning for the future and [00:40:00] not just get really like Yeah, go team. Yeah. Like you we're all on this team and we all wanna like, achieve and get there. Yeah. And um, yeah, I think I just, it's, it's really what I like about working for so many different clients is you get to sort of, you get to feel.
You get to know them, you get to know what they're doing. You know, get to know about their little corner of the world and their corner of the arts and some things that you're just like, I didn't, I've never, I didn't know that there was an organization, you know, that like did this particular thing in this particular way.
You get to know all of those and you get to get attached and you get to be like, really, you know, like invested, and you're like, I want you to succeed, and then you get to know other ones and you're not, like, when you're just working for one organization, all of that energy is just like. Just in one place.
You know, you're just like, we're just bubble. Just trying to optimize. Mm-hmm. This one system that we're in. But if you are able to sort of jump from node to node and you can see one client and be like, well you know how these other 10 clients do it? [00:41:00] Mm-hmm. Is not how you do it. You know, like not saying you have to do it just the way, but just saying that, um, 'cause so often.
Especially with arts organizations, you might be the only arts organization of that type in your surroundings. Yeah. That, so you don't, you're not in contact with others. You're not in a lot of contact with others. Maybe you get to go to some national conferences or sometime, but maybe you don't. Maybe there's not a national conference of that particular thing or you don't have travel budget or like you, it can be really hard to network with the other ones that are doing what you're doing around.
Just pretty kind of operational stuff. Mm-hmm. Like, and then when you are networking, you don't necessarily go and be like, talk about that. Okay, so how do you use test pull on my QuickBooks. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so it really can be helpful for people, for people who have worked with a bunch of clients mm-hmm.
Around the country to say like, Hey look, we've. We can ask them. You're a living archive now, even like a networker. Yeah. We may know, or we can actually just go ask too. Yeah. Like we can [00:42:00] get, we do a lot of like exemplar research Oh, wow. For people actually, it's a, that's a whole. Area of, of both, um, like strategic planning.
Also, we do a lot of feasibility studies mm-hmm. About buildings that you might wanna build or renovate or use differently, um, you know, for your arts. And in both of those cases, we do a lot of, um, exemplar research where we go out and we'll like interview, you know, be like, okay, you are like a theater of this type.
Mm-hmm. And you've got these things going on. And then we'll. Sort of look for other, you know, it's okay. Theater of a similar size where their market also is like super crowded. Mm-hmm. Or you know, like pressed in these ways. We'll find some people and we have connections to a lot of them. Mm-hmm. You know, and then we'll interview like leadership there.
Um. As well as, you know, do some, like third party like research about the whole situation, but we'll talk to people, right? And then just bring it back and be like, here's our exemplar research. Here's some ways that people are dealing with the same issue that you're [00:43:00] dealing with. Like here's, you know, the programs that they have and their thoughts on it.
And just kind of do that for you of like, just go out and find. Which brings me back to leaders who have thoughts on this, you know, to the person yelling, how much did they pay you to do this for the strategic plan? 'cause it's worth it. Especially thinking about buildings, which are so expensive. They're so expensive.
How many people build like. Dirty buildings, which would be enough to even know a little bit about it. Mm-hmm. Like no one, so you have to pull the knowledge in a different way. Yeah. I think especially with feasibility, it really, I think it really helps people understand like, oh, when do you need a consultant?
When you're like, okay, but how many buildings have you built? Like most people just asking. Yeah. Just, just most people at an arts organization, like an arts organization, like the time you're gonna work there like. It would be shocking if they build more than one building. Exactly. Mean some do. They're very, very large, you know?
But you know, when you need a building, when you need to change a building, that's a group of people that have generally never gone through that process before. Do it once, do [00:44:00] it right. Like let's just get the research in. Yeah. And it just really, really helps them to have people around. Um. Who are, are not me.
I haven't built that many buildings. Right. But, um, you know, all, all over, but you could call someone who did. That's the whole point. Our principles. Yeah. Like have someone, um, built buildings, been around a lot of buildings being built, and that's a tongue twister. Um, and let's bring it full circle, like is there anything you think in your musicology training that you use in your day to day skills or vibes or otherwise?
Oh gosh. I mean. I mean, it obviously built you into the person you are, so Yeah, it's like that's a hard to go back and think about how, yeah, that's a bit of an interesting question because I don't know, you also have a PhD in the humanities, so maybe I do. You can relate to the idea of like. What, what was I trained on?
Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, like that's actually the tagline of my dissertation. [00:45:00] Yeah. It's like, I mean, I know there was training, but Yeah, I guess it's like, it's that very like humanities. You know, it's like, it was mostly all about the thinking and the writing. I think that a lot of what you're just saying about this kind of like relational thinking and being able to look at templates from one place and then translate it into a completely different context, that's humanities training.
There it is. Yeah. I would say that's fundamentally, like one thing I took out of it that I'm hearing when you talk about your little arc. Yeah, I've, I've always been, um, I am like a. I'm an arts person who is like a bit, what am I trying to say? Um, cut. No, sorry. Yeah, yeah. Cut. Um, so I've always been a systems thinker mm-hmm.
But in this weird space where people who are like really, really systems thinkers mm-hmm. You know, are. [00:46:00] In science. Right. For sure. You know, like they're engineering something right now. They're engineering hardcore. Mm-hmm. I am not, like I, my brain is not fully in the like, you know? Mm. I just like the grids and the systems.
Yeah. But I really like spreadsheets. Um, I really like databases actually. And like there was this whole thread also from like. Working in development and having a database. Mm-hmm. And then that kind of took me to this like, hmm, I will have, do evaluation and be in control of like all the databases. And there actually always was this thread, like I, I took a class on baroque opera and I remember like my final paper for Baroque Opera Pro, um, my Baroque opera class was, um, like categorizing and, and then.
Like counting essentially. Mm-hmm. So, um, Baro, broke arias. Um, there's, there are these various sort of known specific [00:47:00] types of, there's like the simile aria. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like my love is like a rose and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. You know, there's these, these various sort of forms mm-hmm. That were, um, common at the time.
And, um. They sort of different, there's just a lot of more like sort of standardized, like, ah, this aria is like in this category kind of way. Mm-hmm. And that's known in music history and like people talked, you know, people write about, you know, so it's one of these and stuff. But I, I was doing my project.
What I wanted to do was, I was like, okay, but like. Really, like what's the distribution though? Ooh. You know, like I was just very, like, I know that there's all these categories and we talk about them all the time and we're like, that's one of this and this one is that. But do we actually, like, do we have like a, a handle on like how many and like, where're getting like digital humanity stuff and I just like where, you know, and where are they used and when, and so it was a Vivaldi class.
It was like, um, it was um, Vivaldi opera. And so that was my. Paper. Mm-hmm. Was, [00:48:00] you know, I was like, I didn't, you know, pick one opera mm-hmm. And say like, ah, well the use of this and this opera and mm-hmm. Or like, or sources, another thing you can do is be like, ah, well we've got this many manuscripts. Mm-hmm.
And I've looked at like this many of them and the changes that went like this and like that. Like those are ways you can think about baroque music and often do. Uh, where I went was like, I was like, I wanna make a big spreadsheet of like archetypes and Really, was your professor like down with things?
Nail this down? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, she was like, that sounds super fun. You know, I was like, haven't seen this before. Yeah. And I was just like, I just wanna nail this down. 'cause we're all kinda like, yeah, we think that these are the most common, but like, we need prove we facts on this. Yeah, exactly. So I've always had like a little bit of a, I wanna systematize things.
Yes. But I am also like. Very fully like an arts person. Right. So I've always felt like I'm sort of the person who's like, I'm here, I'm in it. Mm-hmm. I'm an arts person [00:49:00] and, and you know, but I have these thoughts about we could be like a little bit more systematic. Yeah. Um, this is what I want in my strategic plan.
Yeah. Like, I just wanna like bring a little bit of. Order to things like, I think the other, this is a thing I've said before, but um, it's like there's, there's the feeling of wanting to bring, like order out of chaos. Mm-hmm. Right. And I don't want to bring order out of like, when I'm like at an, in an arts organization and you know, working there, working with artists or whatever.
Mm-hmm. My feeling is not like I need to bring order out of this chaos. Right. But my feeling is, um, we could bring. Enough order mm-hmm. To this chaos. Mm-hmm. That we are providing some useful scaffolding. Right. For the creativity. Because the creativity is the chaos. Right? Yeah. And you work with a lot of creativity.
Like you work with a lot of creative people that are kind of like 95% chaos For sure. You [00:50:00] know, that's their gift. And those people are lovely. Yeah. You know, those people are great. And I feel like we've gotta have the 95% chaos people. Mm-hmm. And then we've gotta have the people that are kind of like. 50% order.
Oh, yeah. I'm just kind of showing up to be like, Hey guys, let's, let's, let's like build this over here and there and aim it like, okay, go. You know? Right. A lot of us in consulting are that mm-hmm. Type of person. Like a lot of the people I work with, we come, like, there's like stage, you know, started out as like stage managers.
Mm-hmm. Or tech crew, you know, like different lights, you know, that was me. I started out as stage manager. Yeah. As there's like a, there's a type of arts person that's like the. We're kind of, let's bring a little order in here. Yeah. Like not too much. Not too much. Not too much, but just a bit. Not gonna cramp anyone's style, but I would love a bit of a system.
Yeah. But like, we're just gonna try and like actually make the system work here. My, I'm gonna build a pinball machine and then let all my pinballs loosen it. Exactly. And I think that's the type of person that. I don't know. Tends to [00:51:00] wind up consulting. Yeah. Except for some reason. Well, I'm so glad that you found consulting and consulting found you.
'cause just talking to you like, I think you're the perfect person and I would love for you to come and organize my chaos. Should I ever have any. We would love to, uh, for sure. And the time has come, oh my gosh, I have an eight ball. And you have to ask it a yes or no question. It could be silly, right? It could be serious.
But I should warn you, she's never wrong. Oh, no. So, oh no. You gotta just like be more careful. Oh no. And I knew that this was gonna happen and then I didn't think of a question in advance. It's okay. Everyone says it's the hardest part of this podcast, so Yeah. I mean, mm-hmm. Okay. Um. It could be about San Francisco, San Francisco's artistic future.
Yeah, no, that's, that's weighty. That's like, that's the thing though, right? If it's never wrong, like it has to be a yes or no question, but like, yeah. 'cause I'm, all I can think of are questions where you're like, could go, you know, like either way it [00:52:00] could be Okay. I'll analyze our way out of a bad answer.
Yeah. Okay. I'll interpret it. Otherly, um, yeah. 'cause I just wanna be like San Francisco. Cool city or coolest city. Ooh. Yeah. See, um,
um, okay. I have one, but it's really weighty. Okay. Let's do it though. I trust it's gonna be a problem. If she says No, this is gonna be a problem. Okay. Okay, then we'll cut. We'll do it again. Does the world need more art? Ah, does the world need more art? Do I have to shake it or give a, just turn it. Give her a little swirl.
And then, and then see what she says.
My reply is, no. Uh oh. Okay. Wait. Let's think about this. We gotta save it. Does the world need more art? My reply is no. I mean, maybe she just has bad [00:53:00] taste. Yeah, that could be it too. Like she does say it's her reply. Her reply is now. Yeah. Uh oh. I can't end on the sour note though. Oh, no. I can make up a different one.
You can cut that one. Oh wait. Does the world need more art? Or I can shake it again? No. Hmm. Because the world is art. The world is creative practice, so it doesn't need more stop objectifying art. Oh see? Saved it. Okay, we go. Okay. You're good. Good. Well again, thank you so much and this was really fun. Thank you very much.
Not gonna let no eight ball ruin it. Okay, good.
Thanks for listening to Art Yap. If you enjoyed this episode, the best way to support the show is to leave a rating or review. Share art Yap with a dreamer, a maker, a friend. Because good ideas are better when they don't end. For video trailers and sneak peeks, follow us on Instagram at Art yap underscore podcast.
Until next time, keep [00:54:00] imagining. Keep creating and keep yapping.