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Penny and Christina use digitized newspapers to research their guest's family or personal history. The newspapers are hosted in Trove, the National Library of Australia's online research portal.
(Jaunty piano music - bass part)
00:09 This podcast was recorded at the Richmond Library on unceded, stolen Aboriginal land, the land of the Wurunjeri people of the Kulin Nations. We pay our respects to their elders past and present.
00:22 (Jaunty piano music - treble part)
00:30 Welcome to In Those Days where we talk about yesterday’s news today. I’m Penny Tangey and my co-host is Christina Adams. We use the National Library's digitized newspapers in Trove to explore personal history with a guest.
We recorded this episode in the Richmond Library Makerspace as part of their artist in residence program. Thanks to Yarra Council and the staff of Richmond Library for their support.
And this is our last episode in the Richmond series and appropriately we’re returning to the first Richmond Public Library. But this time we’re talking about library crime. We’re a Trove true crime podcast now.
01:09 (jaunty piano music - soprano part)
01:17 Penny: Julianne Negri is a children's book author and illustrator who has a lot of experience working in children and youth programming in libraries. So we are very lucky to have her here today. She's musical, crafty and very, very creative. Hello, Julianne.
Julianne: Hello, Penny.
Christina: Hello.
Julianne: Hello, Christina.
Penny: Now my first question to people is always, do you use Trove much?
Julianne: Unfortunately, I do use Trove a lot. Hours go by, the children don't get fed because I'm there correcting the articles. I love going in and just doing,
Christina: That's like you Penny.
Julianne: The corrections.
Penny: You're a Voluntrove.
Julianne: I am. During, lockdown, I did heaps
Christina: Did you fix a lot?
Julianne: Oh, I fixed a lot.
Penny: I mean, it is very satisfying.
Julianne; I found it very calming.
Christina: The rest of the world was falling apart. You were fixing Trove.
Penny: For future generations.
Julianne: Yes. And also I kept thinking of the people that would be helping. I kept thinking someone's gonna read this, and someone's gonna need this, and they're gonna love that I've already done this.
Penny: I always correct the articles that I use for the podcast because I feel like I have to I should. I mean, I found them useful,
Christina: Community service.
Penny: So I've gotta give back. I don't always do it perfectly, but I do my best.
Christina: It's the thought that counts.
Penny: Yeah. So my next question is, what's your personal experience with Richmond slash Yarra? Have you ever been local?
Julianne: Yarra is my local library and has been for about 17 years. I used to go to North Fitzroy Library when it was like a cupboard. It was just a little it was a little shop front
Christina: Yep
Julianne: And it was the tiniest little library. I was part of a mum's book club that was run through the library, so you picked up your
Penny: Oh, nice.
Julianne: Set of books. And then the children of the mums who were in the book club all decided it wasn't really fair that the mums were having so much fun at their book club. Why can't they have a book club?
Christina: Oh, okay.
Julianne: So I started a book club for the children of the mums, which the kids decided to call Barnaby Book Club. Oh. And I went to Yarra, and the children's librarian then, I can't remember her name, but she was amazing. She organized through Swift multiple copies of the children's books for the kids to have for book club, but also, like, gave me a list of suggestions of books. Because back then, I wasn't, you know, super-duper reading children's literature all the time. In fact, that was probably when I began to really get into children's literature, which led to me writing it because I was reading it with the kids and exploring it with the kids. But she just gave me this great list of different books at different levels, age groups. And then which ones she could organize. We had this meeting, and, like, when I look at that now, I just can't imagine - I work in libraries. I can't imagine anyone doing that now. Barnaby Book Club was fantastic, and then the last Barnaby Book Club session that I had was just before I started a job as a children's library officer.
Penny: Well, so you basically
Julianne: It led me it led me to the library. So, you know, Yarra is a great library service, because I can remember thinking, ‘Wow, you can't even sit anywhere in this library.’ It's a crazy little shopfront library, but certainly, punched above its weight. And now, of course, North Fitzroy Library is
Penny: That is a beautiful library now, isn't it?
Julianne: Yes.
Penny: And when you were a kid, you grew up in Bendigo, didn't you?
Julianne: Heathcote. No judgment.
Christina: No judgment. No judgment.
Penny: Did you visit the…you two!
Julianne: Goldfields library.
Penny: Yes did you visit Bendigo Library or a different library?
Julianne: Yes. Gosh.
Christina: Only on big days.
Julianne: Yeah. God, days in Bendigo. Yeah. Come in from the country. So we had a mobile library.
Penny: Oh, yes.
Julianne: It came on Fridays.
Penny: It was probably the same truck in Newstead.
Julianne: Maybe. Yeah.
Christina: Did all the Goldfields area.
Julianne: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It would've. It would've.
Christina: Spa country.
Julianne: It was only in my later years of primary school, or maybe that was only when mum let me go. I don't know. No. No. I think it only started in my later years, and I can remember freaking loving it. I can still remember walking onto the truck. Full of books. I can remember my mum being nervous about fines, and my mum was quite nervous of authority and governments and fines and anything, things like that, you know, getting it all right. And so she was quite intimidated, and I can remember saying, 'It's gonna be okay. I'm gonna join the library.' And I can still remember some of the books that I borrowed from there. One of the ones was 'A Traveller in Time', Alison Uttley, which sort of started me on a whole kind of Elizabethan Tudor obsession, which has lasted my entire life. And also time slips. Like, it's a time slip novel.
Penny: Oh yes.
Julianne: And I still remember when so I you know, my first novel was a time slip book. Like, that's what I've written. So I still remember so much about that truck. I loved it.
Penny: And it all began in the mobile library. My mum's, one of my mom's best friends, drove a school library van that used to drive around to lots of different schools.
Julianne: That would be the best.
Penny: Yeah. I wanted to be a famous actress, but I thought that in the off seasons, I would drive the
Julianne: Oh, nice. That's a nice balance kind
Christina: Yeah. It's much like Margot Robbie does now.
Penny: Sorry. Yes. She does. She's often around the Wimmera
Julianne: I joined the Heathcote players. I was Eliza Dolittle.
Christina: It doesn't get much bigger than that.
Julianne: It doesn't.
Penny: But I guess I still am kinda hoping that I might get back in the, you know
Julianne: In the van or in the acting?
Penny: In the van.
Christina: Stage or van?
Penny: I don't wanna do the stage anymore.
Christina: Maybe you could have a stage that folds out of the van.
Julianne: Yeah. Now you're talking.
Christina: So borrow a book and then sit down and watch my latest creative endeavor.
Julianne: Book Cabaret?
Julianne: You know, my first library job was actually at the Goldfields Library.
Christina: Was it?
Penny: Oh I didn't know that.
Julianne: Yeah. Yeah. So when I went to high school, we had to go to Bendigo all the time. Yeah. And I used to hang out at the library.
Penny: Which school did you go to?
Julianne: I went to Catholic College for a year, got kicked out of there. Oops. And then I went to Golden Square High. And then Bendigo Senior Secondary.
Penny: Oh, yeah. The big one.
Julianne: Yeah. And then at the end of year 12, I didn't really know what I wanted to be except a famous actress. Yeah. Actress, archaeologist, author. I used to think I can only get to be a's in the community.
Christina: Yes, I had an archaeology bent as well.
Julianne: Yeah. Yeah. And I just used to hang out at the library all the time because you could just indulge all your interests. You know, you could be in the in the literature section, then you could go and look at fashion books. And then you could then go and look at the art books, and I was, like. But I sort of couldn't decide between whether I was gonna do art or arts. I don't know. I just ended up not applying for university, which is a really weird thing to do, but I kind of was so paralyzed by the choice. And nobody noticed. I'm number 7 of 8 children. I was already living out of home. Nobody really noticed that I hadn't applied for university. So sort of got to the end of the year, and I knew I wasn't gonna go to university, so I needed to get a job. And a job came up at Goldfields Library at Bendigo Library, and I was
Christina: It's destiny.
Julianne: This is it. And I can still remember the interview. I had blue hair, which was kind of uncommon for 1989. I can still remember them saying, 'You're gonna be like a breath of fresh air.'
Penny: And I bet you were though.
Julianne: I was like, a breath of fresh air. And I loved that job, and I still remember the day I got the phone call saying I got the job was, was like, I just found out my boyfriend was cheating on me, but I found out that I got the job, and I also found out that they'd miscalculated my AusStudy for a whole year, and I had a massive backpay.
Christina: Yes.
Penny: Yay.
Julianne: It was, like, one of those destiny days where you're going with a whole lot happening.
Christina: Everything kind of made sense.
Julianne: There's a lot happening. Do I lie on the floor and cry and listen to Sinead O'Connor, or do I go out and go shopping?
Christina: Seize the day.
Julianne: Was one of those turning points. A sliding doors day.
Christina: Yes.
Penny: And so you got into quite young then, because it's often something that people come to you later.
Julianne: Yeah. No. Well, I'm just one of those people who just hasn't progressed.
Penny: You know what you want.
Julianne: I like books.
Christina: Get it. Where do you study?
Penny: Well, this is a this is a thing now. There's hardly anywhere to study librarianism anymore.
Christina: I didn't know what to call it.
Penny: Basically, there's Charles Sturt University, which is an online course. That's what most people are doing now.
Christina: Is that what you did?
Penny: That no. I did RMIT, but then they shut their course. But there's a whole thing about whether you actually need a library qualification to protect, like, I can't be bothered.
Julianne: Libraries are changing.
Christina: Yes.
Julianne: Changing lives and changing.
Christina: Yes.
09:48 Penny: And yet staying the same as well, I think you'll find. Like, it's all, you know coming back. Around. So, like, circular. Yeah. Anyway but what I wanna talk to you about is librarians and library workers because you've got that current experience. I was gonna start with an article from 1922 because there was controversy around the sacking of the Richmond town hall librarian. Who was Mrs Pollock. The title of the article is called 'Lady librarian'. So do you prefer to be called a lady librarian or a librarianess? Where do you where do you come down on that?
Christina: A librarienne? Like comedienne.
Julianne: Just I'm a library worker.
Penny: Yeah.
Julianne: The whole sort of lady librarian. It's quite interesting, isn't it?
Christina: Book Bitch.
Penny: Book bitch!
Julianne: It's that prim proper orderly stereotype, isn't it?
Christina: Of I've got a vision of someone with their glasses on cord.
Julianne: Yeah. Twinset and Pearl shushing a lot.
Penny: And I couldn't find a photo of her.
"The recent action of the Richmond Council in dispensing with the services of Mrs Pollock, librarian at the Richmond Public Library, again came up for discussion at the Richmond Council meeting on Monday night."
This is not the first time they've discussed Mrs Pollock.
"A letter was read from Mrs Pollock stating that the council's decision to dispense with her services after the usual month's notice came as a very great surprise to her."
Julianne: I feel outraged for her.
Penny: I know.
Christina: Poor Mrs Pollock.
Penny: "There was no reason given. She considered she was entitled to an explanation after eleven years’ service"
Christina: I would say so.
Penny: "Without any complaints".
Julianne: Unfair dismissal claim.
Penny: "Having been made."
Is librarian work secure?
Julianne: Yes. Yes.
Penny: These days.
Julianne: Many people that I know that I've worked with have worked at the same library service for, you know, 20, 30 years. The only thing that isn't secure is certain library skills are getting phased out. So no longer do libraries do inhouse cataloging, for example. So when you're a specialist cataloging librarian, you're going to be redeployed in some other area. Or if that was your passion and your love, you're gonna be phased out.
Penny: Where do the catalogers need to go these days?
Julianne: To catalog heaven. Do you mean the actual librarians who are cataloging?
Penny: Yeah.
Julianne: Where do they go? They retire.
Penny: Okay. So who is, there must be some people doing the original cataloguing?
Julianne: Yes. It's outsourced to companies, so you go and work for a
Penny: More of publishing.
Julianne: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and that's only been a recent thing that they've sort of stopped having them. And the hard thing is you get things that are incorrectly catalogued, and you need someone in the library service who can actually do it. The emphasis on the ordering of collection via the via this very specialist skill of cataloguing has kind of lost its importance over the years, which is strange.
Penny: Everything else is changing, like technology and whatever. It's just a matter of people always needing to learn new technology.
Julianne: Yeah.
Penny: Okay. The article continues:
"A letter was also read from the Returned Sailors and Soldiers Imperial League Australia urging sympathetic consideration for Mrs Pollock as she was a widowed mother of two returned soldiers. Cr Kemp moved that Mrs Pollock's request be complied with. He said it was only fair. She had been employed for eleven years as librarian and had given entire satisfaction, and not one single complaint had been made against it. Cr Kemp said, in justice to the woman, an explanation should be given to her.
The council's action was one of the worst things that had ever been done by a public body in Australia."
Julianne: It's a big claim.
Penny: It is a big claim.
Christina: It's a big meeting, that one.
Penny: I think we know that's not true.
Christina: Things are heated.
Penny: I'm on Mrs Pollock's side.
Julianne: Yes.
Penny: But I don't think her being sacked is the worst thing that the Australian government's ever done.
"The council was dismissing a widow lady after eleven years of faithful service. Two of her sons had served at the war. She had been a Red Cross worker. Mrs Pollock had worked while her assistant was away. When the library was closed, she nursed patients at the influenza emergency hospital while the epidemic was raging."
Julianne: Imagine that. Imagine if in the pandemic, we would have had to be redeployed to work in the hospital.
Christina: To the COVID ward.
Penny: So you were working at the State Library, weren't you, during the
Julianne: Yes. And, you know, when they started talking about the influenza pandemic, in the what was it? 1918?
Penny: 1918. 1919. Yep. You know, they opened up the Exhibition Buildings. It was a hospital. That was converted into a hospital. So you can imagine that she might have been, you know, redeployed to work there.
Penny: Yeah. She might have gone on the tram and popped down there.
Julianne: Whereas all we had to do is pivot to digital programming.
Christina: Yep.
Penny: And that's what you did, isn't it? Yeah.
Julianne: And when I say ‘all we had to do’, it was a bit of a brain fry at the time when we hadn't done it. I can remember it wasn't my job. It wasn't my job to do Story Time and Baby Bounce and those sorts of junior, early children's programs, but they had lost all the people, all the casuals at the library when we went into lockdown, and I was the only person left on staff who had ever done it.
Christina: Oh, god.
Penny: Is that how that happened?
Julianne: So it just fell to me.
Penny: Because, Christina, you probably don't know this, but during the COVID lockdowns, Julianne basically became the face of the State Library Victoria.
Julianne: Children's programming.
Christina: Excellent.
Julianne: There were live streams. There were recorded programs.
Penny: She was everywhere.
Julianne: I did a weekly baby bounce recording, edited it at home on my iPad. I can remember getting in trouble from my kids, who were doing homeschooling in the same house. I told them they had to be quiet because I was recording a story time for State Library, and the teacher rang me and said the kids were meant to be making noise on their online class and speaking and stuff, and I had told them they had to be silent, and they'd said to the teacher, 'We can't talk in class because Mum's recording.'
Christina: Yeah.
Penny: She's the face of the State Library.
Christina: Yes. Very important business.
Julianne: And then when we sort of opened up after lockdown, I had a lot of small people and babies that would just come up to me
Christina: Fixate
Julianne. On my face and my voice and, like, try and touch me.
Christina: You were on my iPad.
Julianne: Yeah. How can you be real?
Christina; How weird.
Penny: I saw Julianne everywhere because I had kids, and I guess I we watched some of the, Rhyme Times together, and then you're just always being suggested, and it just seemed and
Julianne: I was in the algorithm, Christina.
Christina: Yes. She was there in the search engine.
Penny: Popping up. And then I went to I think, you did an online event. I think you and Adrian Beck and someone else talking about how you made did your online stuff.
Julianne: Yep.
Penny: And they the others were all really techie, and you were like, 'oh, I just do it on my phone.'
Julianne: Yeah. Because Adrian sets up several cameras.
Christina: Oh god.
Julianne: And I literally have the iPad on a music stand. I drag in a lamp
Christina: Yeah.
Julianne: And then it's, you know
Christina: It's all happening.
Julianne: It's all happening. If there's a ukulele, it's a bonus. You know, like, it's literally just
Christina: Magic continues.
Penny: And who whose face are the children trying to touch now?
Christina: Yeah.
Penny: Yours.
Julianne: Yeah.
Christina: So that's a bit alarming.
Julianne: They can see through the tricks, Adrian.
Christina: Yeah.
Penny: Sorry. I'm sorry. I'll carry on:
"It was a downright shame to treat the lady in such a manner."
We're back on Mrs Pollock.
Julianne: The lady.
Penny: "She was getting up in years."
Julianne: Getting up in years.
Christina: Oh, she was probably 40.
Julianne: I know. I would love to know her age.
Penny: "And had an invalid daughter dependent upon her."
Christina: Probably had polio.
Penny: Possibly.
"The labor council"
Julianne: Long flu.
Penny: If you were losing your job, would you, I don't know that I'd really want someone to say, 'but she's old! and she's got sick relatives!'
Christina: What other prospects does she have?
Penny: It could be more like, ‘Oh, she was doing a really good job.’
Christina: Yeah. Professionally, she was at her peak.
Penny: I'll read on.
"The Labor council had done some rotten things. But this was one of the worst of them. Cr Mary Rogers supported Cr Kemp's motion."
Now Mary Rogers is a very interesting person. She was the first woman elected to a Victorian council. And do you know that on Bridge Road, there's that pedestrian crossing that doesn't have a figure of a man, it has a figure of a woman?
Julianne: Yes. I do.
Penny: Or a person wearing a dress, really. That's Mary Rogers.
Julianne: Yeah. Wow.
Penny: Yeah. She was green.
Christina: She was green?
Penny: Yeah. She was green in real life, and so that's. That's her. Anyway, and she was very supportive of Mrs Pollock. She said she was horrified that Labor men were prepared to put a woman out of work and deprive her of her livelihood. She hardly believed that some men, for whom she held great respect would put out a woman who had done her best for her family. When she inquired, she heard that £90 a year would be saved by Mrs Pollock's dismissal. What a glorious salary for a labor council to pay."
She's being sarcastic. £90 a year was about eight and a half thousand dollars.
Christina: Wow. Mrs Pollock would have needed a side hustle.
Penny: Yes. I bet she had one too.
Christina: I bet she did too.
Penny: She would have been taking in washing.
Julianne: Taking and washing, knitting?
Penny: Yeah. Yeah.
Julianne: Doily making?
Christina: Yeah.
Penny: "Cr Bell said a mountain had been made out of a molehill."
Boooooo.
"As leader of the Labor party, he had to fall in with the decision arrived at."
Julianne: It's political.
Christina: It is, very.
Penny: And so I'll just do a little warning. There is a bit of an ableist slur in this next, section, but I will read it out because it's kind of
Christina: It's contextual.
Penny: It is.
"Cr Bell says, it seemed to him that political business and every other stunt had been introduced into the discussion. The lady was not dismissed because she was incapable. Everybody respected her. It was recognized that Mr O'Brien, the assistant, was a cripple. Mr O'Brien could not work at his trade as a tailor on account of his physical disabilities. He should get the preference if only one officer were kept on."
Now I think the official reason why he was preferenced was because he had started working at the council before her.
Julianne: He'd worked there longer. However, what disability would mean that you couldn't do tailoring, but you could do library?
Christina: Shelving.
Penny: Because shelving, when I got my recent life library job.
Julianne: Oh my goodness.
Penny: Did you have to do the health and the fitness assessment?
Julianne: When I started when I started, yes.
Christina: Did they check your upper body strength?
Penny: It was really intense.
Julianne: Step up on things. They make you close your eyes and see if you can stand on one leg. And I was like, 'Yeah, look you're making me do it in runners. I could do it in four-inch heels.'
Christina: How embarrassing.
Julianne: But it is. But when I when I started working at Boroondara Library Service, shelving was done in a very orderly way in two sessions every day.
Penny: Oh, really?
Julianne: At 10 and at 2, I think it was. And what would happen is that a lady librarian, I and I actually think this lady would probably like being called a lady librarian, she would stand up in the workroom and shout, 'Shelving!' And it wouldn't matter if you were on the phone, if you were in the middle of something.
Christina: Oh, my gosh.
Julianne: Everything. Everyone had to stop what they were doing.
Christina: And start shelving.
Julianne: No. No. No. Congregate and start their stretches. Because for work health and safety you had to do your exercises together as a group.
Christina: Oh my god.
Julianne: Before you descended the stairs to get the trolleys and shelve.
Christina: Cos it's such a physical job.
Julianne: Yeah.
Penny: And how long were you shelving for?
Julianne: 45 minutes. And you had to do it twice a day. And it was
Christina: Strength training.
Julianne: And you had to fit that in, as well as your desk, as well as your other duties.
Christina: And your cardio.
Julianne: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there was no getting out of it because
Penny: Yeah. Everyone
Julianne: Everyone would come and find you if you were hiding under your desk trying to get some work done.
Christina: That's bizarre.
Julianne: Yeah. It was full on. I couldn't believe it when it first happened. I was just, like, I've where am I working? What is this? The exercises were hilarious. I used to stand there going, 'I'm not doing it'. They'd say, ‘Carpal tunnel problem. You'll be sorry.’
Christina: Work cover.
Penny: But you've worked in libraries for a while. You would have seen a few restructures and shake ups and changes. Can you say anything about that?
Julianne: People's whole jobs have changed. So, you know, libraries have changed a lot. Some things haven't changed. You know, libraries have always been free, democratic, welcoming everyone, a haven for people to come to the library, all of those things. But more and more, it's about access to digital, access to technology, so you're needing people who are good with technology. I mean, we have a lot of people who come to our library service who need help with learning iPad. They need help with their phones. They need help you know, you need young people who are good at tech, who are up with the latest technology to actually help them access this stuff. But more and more, that's the information that we're sharing is technology information. So jobs are changing a lot, and things like, local history specialties, are kind of fading out as well. They're getting sort of amalgamated with events or
Penny: Right yeah.
Julianne: Other sort of umbrellas, you know, things are kind of getting shifted around, whereas they used to just be the archives digitizing them, answering questions. You know, you write to the you could write to the library, ask a librarian a question about your question.
Penny: A reference question.
Julianne: Or a question about the history of your house in the local area, and they would do the research. You know, those sorts of services are going by the wayside now.
We more help other people find that information for themselves.
Penny: Okay. Yeah. And there's more capacity to do that because of things being online and accessible in other ways. Yeah. I'll carry on with this article.
"Cr Joyce said it was unfortunate that the council had to dismiss anybody, but it was not a philanthropic institution."
Rude.
Christina: Rude.
Penny: "Under the new federal award, the council would have to pay a £160 a year to each employee,"
Which let's just remember, like, that's still less than $20,000.
Julianne: But this is their reasoning.
Penny: Yeah.
Julianne: That it's a financial reason why they've sacked it.
Penny: "The council had to finance the city. Mr O'Brien was employed by the council before Mrs Pollock. At this stage, the mayor left the chair to attend another function."
Christina: 'I've had enough.'
Penny: 'I've got some canapes to eat.'
"Concluding the rebate, Cr Kemp said it was"
No, sorry. It's a debate, obviously. Sorry. I haven't fixed this article well enough.
"Concluding the debate, Cr Kemp said it was a paltry excuse to put forward for the dismissal of the librarian, that there were to be alterations to the existing conditions in the library. During non-working hours, Mrs Pollock had gone around to other libraries and had found improvements that were beneficial to the Richmond library.
Julianne: See. In her own time. She's someone that you'd love.
Penny: She probably went to Prahan. Yeah. See what they're doing.
Julianne: Stonington.
Penny: Would have been a lot better.
Julianne: Yeah. She cares.
Penny: "Now the council are going to put her out. He was sorry Mr O'Brien was a cripple."
Julianne: Yeah.
Christina: We all are.
Penny: "Councilor Kent made one more appeal to his fellow councilors. This lady was an old and honored resident of Richmond."
Christina: So you're going old versus cripple.
Penny: "Were they going to throw her out? Such an action would bring everlasting shame and disgrace on the council."
Julianne: Everlasting?
Christina: It's like a curse.
Julianne: Yeah. I know. That was her side hustle, Cursing, witching
Christina: Yeah. She's gonna do a voodoo doll of the council.
Julianne: Mr O'Brien.
Penny: "The acting chairman, Cr Joyce, declared Cr Kemp's motion to comply with Mrs Pollock's request carried unanimously."
Julianne: Does that mean that she kept her job?
Penny: No. It means that she got to find out why she didn't, why she got the sack.
Julianne: Which is just because he was employed for longer?
Penny: Yeah
Christina: And they didn't wanna spend money.
Julianne: And the pay scales had changed.
Penny: It's not personal.
Julianne: Yeah. Look, I actually think Mrs Pollock, when you think about it, she's someone who cares about the community, she helps out in the pandemic, you know, helping nursing, she tries to improve things, she's so into libraries that when she's not at work in the library, she goes to other libraries.
Christina: Looks for library opportunities.
Julianne: She's someone who you'd want on staff now.
Penny: I agree.
Julianne; She would fit into the modern library service.
Penny: Yeah, I think that's right. So how diverse is the pool of librarians now? What do you reckon?
Julianne: Well, I think once upon a time, and I think there's a real divide in libraries around the people it attracts to work there. So once upon a time, people were attracted to the order and the quiet. So that attracted a certain type of people who like order and quiet and books and information, but libraries are also about community and people. So the other type of person who is attracted to working in the library are real people people. People who want to communicate, who want to make things accessible, who wanna help people, and, I mean, that's what I always say to my kids. I love my job. I don't have to care about making a profit. I just help people all day.
Christina: Yeah.
Penny: Yes. And you know what I found? I mean, because I'm a very recent librarian. How happy people are when you give them a book that they were looking for.
Julianne: Yeah.
Penny: Is really amazing. They're just so grateful and so pleased, particularly if they've looked for it themselves and they couldn't find it, and then you put it in their hands. They're like, ‘Oh my god. You're so wonderful’. Like, completely, in some ways, disproportionate to what you've actually done for them, but they're just really, really it's really rewarding.
Julianne: But I think as libraries change and are attracting more and more young people because they're a very ethical place to work, so we're
Penny: That's true. That's what attracted me to it as well.
Julianne: So we yeah. You're not in it for the money, Penny. So, you know, or the fame.
So, like, these days, people who work in libraries are incredibly diverse because libraries are for everyone. They're democratic. They're free. They're welcoming. So, therefore, they're the sorts of people that want to work there. I find it incredibly diverse now. However, we still have people who work in libraries who started working in libraries because they liked order, quiet, and books, and there's is constantly a little bit of tension
Christina: Yeah.
Julianne: Between the people people, library workers, and the order process driven library workers. And you need both.
Penny: And, like, to be fair, some people come to the library because they, like, order
So it's just a matter of getting the balance.
Julianne: I think one thing about libraries is I applied for a job in the library when I was, you know, finished high school because I used to hang out at the library. It was somewhere I liked to be, and I still think that is pretty much a given. People work in libraries are people who like libraries.
Penny: Yes. God, I hope no one hates libraries, who's working there. Anyway, one other thing I will say about this article is that, and I can prove nothing, however, I will say this. The Richmond Council had a reputation for being extremely corrupt and having their jobs for the boys mentality.
Christina: Gosh, it's not like councils now, is it?
Penny: So, look, I'm not saying that that had anything to do with it in this case, but it's,
Julianne: And, Penny, like, have public libraries always been council run?
Penny: That's a good yeah. Actually, they kind of have. Yeah.
Julianne: So they have always been.
Penny: Well, not I mean, of course, some of them are like the Mechanics Institute that were not they were like private kind of things, and they were subscription based. I think you paid to be a member, but it was fairly affordable relatively to buying your own books. A lot of libraries were started in the town hall. So, like, adjacent.
Julianne: That happened at Fitzroy, the Fitzroy Reading Room.
Penny: But there were also private institutions to begin with as well. Okay. So the next thing that we're gonna read about is a bit of crime because, Julianne, you're a writer, and I think you would have won an award for crime writing or you
Julianne: I came runner's up.
Penny: Your runner's up. That's winning
Christina: No. You won it.
Penny: For a short story in the Scarlet Stilettos? Is that right?
Julianne: Short story. Yeah.
Penny: One of the big tropes in crime writing is the dead body in the library.
Julianne: And in fact, The Scarlet Stiletto has a category for the Body in the Library.
Penny: And so when I knew Julianne was coming on, I was, like, oh, I'm gonna try and find some crime in the library because this is do people always die in the library. And, I looked at not a single murder.
Christina: Disappointment.
Penny: That I could find. But I've got some lesser crime.
Julianne: Which is fascinating, really, considering what high stakes are happening.
Penny: I know.
Christina: Massive.
Julianne: There's returning your book late.
Christina: Yeah. Waiting in line for a photocopier.
Julianne: There's turning down the book corners when you're keeping it.
Penny: People do that, don't they? Spilling a whole bottle of wine on your book and then just putting it back.
Julianne: Through the shute.
Christina: That was like that when I borrowed it.
Penny: So this article is slightly confusing. It's about a theft, but it's not actually about the theft. It's about
Christina: The principle.
Julianne: It's about the people who were accused of theft.
Penny: Who then are suing for being accused of the theft.
Christina: Was it a stapler on a piece of string?
Penny: It's much more serious than that.
Christina: Sorry I was just checking.
Penny: This is real crime.
Julianne: Was it those little tiny pencils?
32:13 Penny: Herald, 13th of April 1938.
"Librarian denies he alleged theft."
Julianne: He's the same librarian. On the job.
Penny: It's O'Brien. And this is my point, and this is why I did get slightly suspicious. I feel like in this article, it kinda demonstrates that he was not as good a librarian as Mrs Pollock.
Julianne: Yes.
Penny: But let me know what you guys think.
Christina: Okay.
Penny: "Women claim £1750 in slander action."
That's about a $180,000, so that's a lot.
Christina: Wow.
Penny: Of money.
Julianne: Yeah.
Penny: "A denial that he had ever stated directly that two women had stolen a £130 from him was made in the 1st civil court today by John Patrick O'Brien of Broughton Street, Richmond, librarian at the Richmond Town Hall. He admitted, however, under cross examination by mister Eugene Gorman, KC, for the women,"
So that's their lawyer
"That he still thought they knew something about the theft."
Now, at this point, he's just a victim, isn't he? He's a victim of crime, and we shouldn't be blaming him, should we, at all?
Julianne: No.
Penny: No. Right? Mm-mm. However, let's continue.
"The two women, Mrs Ivy Robbins of Punt Road, Richmond, and her mother, Mrs Ivy Hilda Jenkins, yesterday opened a slander action against O'Brien before the Chief Justice, Sir Frederick Mann, and in special jury of 6. They alleged that O'Brien unjustly accused him of having stolen a £130 from a cupboard at the library."
Julianne: I'm sorry, but why is there money in the cupboard at the library?
Penny: Well
Christina: And that sort of amount.
Penny: It's a lot of money.
Julianne: Why is there money that's just his?
Penny: Yeah. I mean, that's because I mean, I guess that was
Christina: Wasn't he on £90 a year?
Penny: 15 years ago? Yeah. They were gonna, he was gonna get a £160 a year. Yeah. This is I mean, it's a few years ago.
Christina: So that's like putting your entire salary, but a little bit, into a locker.
Penny: In a cupboard at work. Would you do that, Julianne? Is that what we're meant to do?
Julianne: Well, there are some cupboards at the library, but I mostly just full of people's lost umbrellas, wrongly returned books, and Pokemon cards.
Penny: "Giving evidence on oath, O'Brien said he had met Mrs Robins about two years ago, and in July of last year, he had gone to live as a paying guest in Mrs Jenkin's home. He had never made affectionate advances to Mrs. Robbins."
Christina: Did they ask him that or did he describe that?
Julianne: Or did he just volunteer it?
Penny: "And had never entered her room while she was undressing."
Julianne: What? You doth protest too much, Mr O'Brien.
Penny: Which actually contradicts something he said later, actually.
Penny: "He had left Mrs Jenkins' home, not because he had been repulsed by Mrs Robins."
Julianne: So he wasn't repulsed by
Penny: No, sorry.
"He had left Mrs Jenkins' home not because he had been repulsed by Mrs Robins, but because of the conditions under which he had been living there."
The next heading is "£215 in cupboard."
"For some years, O'Brien said he had kept money in the cupboard at the library."
Julianne: Hasn't he heard of banks?
Penny: Nah.
Julianne: Why is he keeping money for years in a cupboard at the library?
Penny: £215. That's more than a year's wages anyway.
Julianne: Bribery. It's corruption money.
Penny: Yep.
"In September of last year, there was £215 there. He had mentioned on several occasions to Mrs Jenkins and Mrs Robins that the money was there.
Julianne and Christina: Why?
Penny: I don't know. Is that bragging?
"On September 20"
Julianne: It is bragging because it's a lot of money.
Christina: It is huge.
Penny: To just have spare.
Julianne: Yeah.
Penny: "On September 20, he had allowed Mrs Jenkins and Mrs Robins to wait in the library while Mrs Jenkins' husband was attending as a spectator at a meeting of the Richmond Council."
Julianne: The council again.
Penny: Yeah. Do you let your friends and relatives hang out in the library when it's closed?
Julianne: No.
Penny: Yeah. I think I'd get in trouble if
Julianne: I think so. Yeah.
Penny: "He had, on this occasion, handed Mrs Jenkins a ring on which were the keys of the library and the keys of the cupboard."
Christina: 'Don't open the cupboard where all of my life savings are held.'
Julianne: ‘Just like I wouldn't walk in on you naked.’
Christina: Yeah. Or be repulsed at the site.
Julianne: I think we're setting up a sequence now.
Christina: I think so.
Penny: "He had then left the women alone in the library and told them to lock up,"
Which once again you're not meant to do.
Christina: No.
Julianne: He's not very responsible. I don't know Mrs Pollock would never have done that.
Penny: This never happened under Mrs Pollock's watch let me tell you.
"On September 27th, he had again allowed Mrs Jenkins to remain in the library while he was not present and had entrusted her with the keys. On October 14th, he found that the £131 was missing from the cupboard."
Why didn't they take the whole amount?
Christina: They only had a specific amount they needed.
Penny: Hang on. I just said that they did it. I better not.
Julianne: Slander.
Penny: I'll be in trouble. So how common is theft in the library, do you reckon? Because they're always telling you not to leave your stuff unattended.
Julianne: Yeah I haven't known of people losing their stuff. Newspapers get stolen.
Penny: Yes.
Julianne: Someone at one branch steals the Financial Review, and there is a patron who is determined to discover who that person is.
Penny: Oh, god.
Julianne: He keeps telling me he knows who it is.
Penny: Just murder someone, and then we can investigate that.
Julianne: And, you know, there's someone who steals the Neo Cosmos newspaper at a different branch. So newspapers go missing. Someone once found a a book with $3,000 in it.
Christina: Wow. That's a big day at the library.
Penny: And they told you?
Julianne: You know, well, it was a worker. Shelving. And, took the money to the police, but no one ever claimed it.
Penny: Did they get to keep it?
Julianne: Yeah. I think they did.
Penny: Nice. Oh, you know what would be the worst? If the library was like, 'That's ours.' Oh, god. I'd be furious.
Julianne: But we've all always thought, why? Was it someone's rent money? Like, why would you put it in a book?
Christina: That's weird.
Julianne: You know, I've found weird things in a book. I once found some cooked bacon in it, like, a whole piece in
Penny: That's gross.
Julianne: Yeah. That was pretty gross. But yeah. So, like, little and of course, you know, books go missing.
Penny: Oh, yeah.
Julianne: And they're always the same sort of books. They're always the witching books and the astrology books.
Christina: They're born to a higher purpose.
Julianne: Yes. They always go missing.
Penny: Really?
Julianne: Yeah. Go search any library catalog in the witchy section, the 133s`, and you will find
Penny: There's a Dewey.
Julianne: That everything will be missing copy, missing copy. They don't get replaced. That and so do sort of certain cult books get stolen.
Penny: Oh, that is so interesting.
Christina: That's weird.
Penny: I did not know that. This is this is the knowledge of working in the libraries for a long time. This is the sort of thing I need to build up.
Julianne: Yeah. Don't trust people who are into witchy stories and stuff. They're gonna nick your books.
Penny: The article continues.
"The following day, as a result of a conversation he had with detectives, Mrs Robins and Mrs Jenkins were brought to detectives, Mrs Robbins and Mrs Jenkins were brought to the Richmond Police Station.'
The next heading is "Asked women questions."
Christina: 'Asked women questions.'
Julianne: Not ladies.
Penny: Yeah.
"O'Brien had asked women questions in front of the detective."
Julianne: Why was he getting to do that?
Penny: I don't know.
Christina: Why is O'Brien so in with everyone?
Penny: Yes.
Julianne: I don't like him ever since he took Mrs Pollock's job.
Christina: No. Do you think he's the founder of the windscreen company? (Sings jingle).
Penny: Not sure.
Julianne: Theme song.
Penny: "He had asked the women questions in front of the detectives but had never said Mrs Robins took the money and Mrs Jenkins helped her. He had not said anything about swearing out an information against the women either at this interview or at a later interview at which Mrs Jenkins' husband was present. He had not told other people in Richmond that Mrs Robinson, Mrs Jenkins had taken their money, but he had told one woman that Mrs Jenkins had the keys, and Ivy knew where the money was kept.
Julianne: Well...I think the implication is quite stronger, isn't it?
Penny: "Mr Gorman, on Monday 15th, did you believe that these women or either of them had stolen your money? O'Brien, yes. Mister Gorman, are you still prepared to say that they stole it? No. But I think they know something about it."
Okay so he's
Christina: They're tying up a lot of time and resources. Silly money business.
Penny: I know. And, like, given that it's not actually about the money, like, they're not being charged with theft.
Christina: That sounds very petty.
Julianne: Yeah. I keep trying to imagine the cupboard.
Christina: Yeah.
Julianne: Like, what is this?
Christina: I've got a locker in my head. Only cos I'm looking at a locker.
Penny: Yeah. I'm thinking a locker.
Julianne: Is it in the office? Is it?
Christian: It's weird.
Julianne. Let's go find the cupboard.
Christina: Let's.
Julianne: See if it's still here.
Penny: Actually, will it be in the Town Hall?
Julianne: Yeah.
Penny: Imagine if it wasn't, he's got all the
Christina: Imagine if we found it!
Julianne: Imagine if the money's still there!
Christina: Split it three ways.
Penny: Cos he kept working for, like, another 20 years or whatever.
Julianne: What if the cupboards kind of got, like, a little fault in it and it's fallen down the back.
Christina: A hidden compartment.
Penny: Let's go.
Julianne: Treasure.
Penny: Let's get on the tram. Okay. The next heading is quite exciting. It is, "I have kissed her."
Christina: What the hell? That escalated rapidly.
Penny: This next bit is a conversation between the lawyer
Christina: Mr O'Brien.
Penny: Mr O'Brien!
Julianne: He hasn't walked in on her naked.
Christina: No.
Penny: Okay. Do you wanna be Mr O'Brien, or will I do both voices?
Christina: You do both.
Penny: I'll do both voices. Okay. So I'm gonna be the lawyer. The lawyer will be like this (deep voice). And then Mr O'Brien, just be a normal lady voice. Okay?
"Did you like Mrs Robins?
Yes.
If you had been single, would you have wanted to marry her?"
I did not get as far as that.
Christina: Where did you get to?
Julianne: How far did you get?
Penny: "When you take people out, you don't always marry them."
Julianne: Oh, wow. Imagine.
Penny: "Did you ever try put your arm around her?
Yes.
Did you try to embrace her?
Yes. I have kissed her. She allowed me."
Julianne: At least it was consensual.
Penny: Which is why it's weird that earlier he said that he had never
Julianne: He just said he hadn't seen her hadn't walked in on her.
Penny: No. But he also said
Christina: She's the one who was a repulsive.
Penny: He had never made affectionate advances to her
Julianne: Oh, well, he had, hadn't he.
Christina: Platonic embrace.
Julianne: And who is she married to? Because she's ‘Mrs’.
Penny: And if Yeah. I don't know where her husband is.
Christina: Is he not single? Cos they said 'If you were single'.
Penny: Haven't found anything about him having a wife, but, yeah, it's confusing. I think maybe his wife kicked him out, which is why he went to go and live. Maybe he moved out.
Julianne: You're onto something there.
Christina: And he hid his money at the library, so she couldn't get her filthy hands on it.
Julianne: See?
Penny: This sounds right. Okay. We've solved this. We've cracked this wide open. We are a true crime podcast.
Christina: We are.
Penny: I wonder if the paper's gonna wanna report on this.
Christina: We should ask the police to throw some cold cases at us. We'll get that sorted.
Julianne: Especially if there's articles in Trove.
Penny: Yeah. Exactly.
Christina: Absolutely. Or if there's a cupboard.
Penny: "Yes. I have kissed her. She allowed me.
You will admit you were hitting things up about September."
I don't know what that means.
Christina: Hitting or heating?
Penny: Hitting things up. Hitting things up about September.
"No. Just having a jovial time."
Christina: Oh, jovial time.
Penny: "That included more than drinking liquor.
No."
That's the end of the conversation.
"Called by mister Eager, KC, for O'Brien, Senior-Detective E. W. Rosewarne said that O'Brien had not said at Richmond Police Station when the two women were interviewed.
"She", pointing at Mrs Robbins, took my money, "and she, pointing at Mrs Jenkins, helped her."
Julianne: Is this like not walking in on someone naked?
Penny: Yeah. No. No. He at the police station, he did not point to someone.
Julianne: He's saying that he didn't say that.
Penny: He didn't say that. He did not say that.
"O'Brien had not stated either at the police station or at a later interview in front of Mrs Jenkins' husband that he was prepared to swear out an information against the women." He did not do that.
Julianne: He didn't.
Penny: He didn't. He says he didn't.
Christina: So I don't know what Mr O'Brien wants.
Penny: But he's on trial basically. Well, he's on, you know
Julianne: But even the policeman's being very specific about what O'Brien didn't do. Yeah. Rather than saying what he did do. And also, why was the policeman letting the librarian question him? I mean, like, librarians are very highly regarded as you would know, Penny. But would you let them question a suspect?
Christina: It's weird.
Penny: No. It's very odd. Well, you would if you were in a crime novel.
Julianne: Well. Yes. That's true.
Penny: You'd team up with them. You wouldn't want to at first. You'd be like, 'No. No. We mustn't, we mustn't. But then you would.'
Julianne: Well then like some days I do come home from work with a great story of how I solved a mystery of a missing book.
Penny: Yeah. Which is very satisfying.
Julianne: And you do feel pretty damn good.
Penny: Oh, it's nothing like it, particularly someone else's looked for it.
Julianne: Or when everyone else has looked for it. And it's a boardwalk
Penny: Ta-daa. They are hard to find. Or a first reader.
Penny: I reckon we're gonna, Christina's gonna have changed profession before the end.
Christina: You just don't know.
Julianne: We're making it sound so good, aren't we?
Penny: Yeah. So this court case, the ladies won, but they were awarded a farthing damages.
Julianne: A farthing?
Penny: Yeah. So they're basically not a $180,000. I think giving someone a farthing's damages was all in damages was, like, going, 'Yeah, but seriously.'
Julianne: Okay. So he did accuse them.
Penny: Yeah. Basically. Yeah. So I've got one more article about O'Brien, and he is playing a bit of a bit of a different role.
Julianne: So did we ever find out who stole the money?
Penny: No.
Julianne: Or was the money even stolen?
Christina: Yeah. Did he just take it?
Julianne: Did he just set them up?
Christina: For an elaborate lunch.
Julianne: Did he just set them up?
Penny: That's possible. Maybe he was repulsed by her.
Julianne: Yeah.
Penny: I think in this case, repulsed means that she kicked him out rather than that he was
Julianne: Repulsive.
Penny: Repulsive.
Christina: I'm gonna stick to the original.
Julianne: It's a bit like revolting and revolting.
Christina: Yes.
Penny: Yes.
Julianne: The peasants are revolting?
Penny: Yeah. I haven't even thought about that. I just always assumed they're having an uprising. Get involved.
Julianne: I reckon he set them up.
Christina: Yes.
Penny: Yeah cos he's always telling them, you know, I got that.
Julianne: Got that money there. Here's the key.
Penny: Yeah.
Christina: 'I'm gonna leave now.'
Penny: 'I won't be watching.'
Julianne: The money's in the cupboard. Here's the key. See you later.
Christina: CCTV hasn't been invented yet.
Penny: Yep. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. But he's back in the news in 1952.
Christina: How long's it been since he's been in the news?
Penny: That was '38. Oh, this is another 14 years.
Julianne: He's worked there a long time.
Penny: Yeah. He's getting towards. That's 30 years.
Julianne: That's 30 years. Since '22 he got the job, but he was already working as the assistant.
Christina: I bet Mrs Pollock visits every day.
Julianne: Oh, man. I bet she does.
Penny: Cos she would still want to use the library, wouldn't she?
Julianne: She maybe she can't let go of the displays.
Christina: She probably makes suggestions all the time.
Julianne: Oh, there's a suggestion box, and she gives feedback.
Christina: Full. Full of Pollock suggestions.
Julianne: Oh, I bloody hope so.
Penny: And he just eats them. He screws them up and eats them in front of her face.
Christina: Smashes her displays.
Julianne: I think we've basically worked out a whole novel out of these people's lives.
Christina: I think we have.
48:19 Penny: Okay. I think you'll like this, actually. Herald, 25th of July 1952.
"Ex mayor fined hit librarian."
It's not funny.
Christina: It is.
Penny: Cornelius Anthony Loughnan, former mayor of Richmond, was fined £20 in default two months imprisonment in Richmond Court today on a charge of having by kicking assaulted the Richmond City Council librarian"
who was O'Brien at the time.
Julianne: Kicked the librarian.
Penny: Kicked him. Rude, It is rude. Con Loughnan, quite a character. Have you ever heard of him?
Julianne: No.
Christina: No.
Penny: He was mayor from 1932 to '33, but the whole Loughnan family were very big in politics in Richmond. So his brother was mayor for a while and other family members, everyone's involved.
Julianne: Oh, so very deeply embedded in the political council life.
Penny: Yes. Exactly. And, this is in Janet McCallum's book on Richmond called 'Struggletown'. This is how she described Con:
"Chronically disputatious, impulsive, and capable of sudden sadistic violence, he was clearly afflicted with a severe personality disorder that by middle age sank him into alcoholism."
Christina: Good.
Julianne: A bit of self-medication there.
Penny: Yeah. But on the other hand, he always dressed very stylishly.
Julianne: Oh, that's nice.
Penny: And he carried a cane that concealed a rapier.
Julianne: Oh my god.
Penny: That's a picture of him. You can't see him very well.
Christina: Oh he's shady.
Julianne: Sociopath.
Penny: I think he really was. Yeah.
Julianne: So, really, the librarian was lucky he just got kicked?
Penny: Well, yeah. He did stab someone with his rapier once.
Julianne: I mean, I felt like stabbing people in the library, but still.
Penny: Yeah. Is there much crime in the library?
Julianne: There's altercations. I've seen a few fights, usually about computers.
Christina: Wow.
Julianne: The other thing, actually, that's on the increase as a crime in the library that we actually have been on the lookout for is identity theft. The people on the computers. Because people come to the library to use the computer. And they often put up, you know, their credit card details or their bank account details. And you do see people walking around with their mobile phones taking photos.
Penny: You're joking.
Julianne: So you have to go and alert the person that, you know, that their information might.
Penny: Do you do anything about the person who was taking the photos?
Julianne: Yes. We have.
Penny: Cos no one's told me what to do in this situation, Julianne.
Christina: Panic!
Julianne: We take we take them aside and talk to them, but, you know, they invariably say, 'I was taking a selfie' or something else. But, yeah, that is becoming an increasing sort of issue is identity theft through the people who sort of hang out in the library section in the computer section because it's always a bank of computers, so they're not very private.
Penny: And you're not watching behind you, you're looking at the screen.
Julianne: Yes. So that's a sort of new thing that's cropping up.
Julianne: But yeah. So that that's a little bit of violence, and it's usually
Christina: Little bit of violence.
Julianne: And it's usually.
Penny: But not as much as in the books in the library.
Julianne: But nobody's brought out a knife from their cane or kicked anybody. There's been a bit of a punch up. I've known of
Penny: Yeah.
Julianne: But that's usually, like, over ownership of the computer. Like, 'I like computer number 2.'
Christina: Oh, god.
Julianne: Like, weird stuff like that.
Christina: Bit like a school.
Penny: And not usually the ex-mayor either.
Penny: Okay.
"The librarian, Patrick John O'Brien, 68 of Menties Avenue, Brighton Beach."
He's moved up to Brighton Beach.
"Said Loughnan swore at him in the library on June 26. O'Brien, who is deformed,"
Don't say cripple anymore.
Julianne: What?
Christina: Imagine including that?
Penny: Quite irrelevant, isn't it?
"Said he went to get his hat from a cupboard and asked another man to go for the police."
Julianne: We have a buzzer. To go for the police.
Christina: Have you had to call the police in the library? Yeah.
Julianne: Yeah, like I said, we have a buzzer.
Penny: "A shirt belonging to Loughnan was in the cupboard. He offered it to Looughnan who swore at him again."
Christina: 'Shirt?'
Penny: "And hit him across the face with a China jug."
Julianne: What? The ex-mayor hit the librarian across the face with a broken
Christina: Why is there a China jug?
Julianne: Well, this cupboard's got everything. It's like the wardrobe to Narnia.
Christina: Yeah. 'Mr Tumnus! Get out of the way.'
Penny: Well maybe he thought someone was getting his stuff out of the cupboard again.
Christina: Maybe Mr O'Brien is Mr Tumnus.
Julianne: He lives in the cupboard ever since he got repulsed from Mrs Jenkins'.
Christina: He's deformed, but, actually, he's a faun.
Penny: 'Sorry. Did I say deformed? I meant a faun.'
Christina: Yeah. Defauned.
Penny: "Broken jug. Every time it hit me, a bit broke off, said O'Brien."
Julianne: Hit him where?
Penny: I don't know. Oh, no, I do know.
"Loughnan jabbed the broken jug in my face and cut my nose and forehead."
Julianne: Oh my god.
Penny: Loughnan then wedged him between two bookcases.
Julianne: Oh no.
Penny: "O'Brien said and punched him, kicked him twice, and put his knee into his body."
Oh, I've just had another theory. Con Loughnan and Mrs Pollock, has anyone ever seen them in this room together?
Christina: Oh, this is a good point.
Julianne: Do you know what? I'm getting the feeling, though. Con's a criminal.
Penny: Yeah, he is, basically.
Julianne: And corruption in the council.
Penny: Yes.
Christina: Rife.
Julianne: Rife. O'Brien's in on it. He's laundering the money through his cupboards.
Christina: Yes. Into Narnia.
Penny: He's got, like, a little washing machine. You know, like, they're probably running bookie, you know?
Penny: Yes.
Julianne: You know?
Penny: Yep, they're probably getting a cut off every job that the council gives.
Julianne: Yeah, and I bet there was a reason, a corrupt reason, why they got rid of Mrs Pollock because she was honorable and
Penny: And maybe even onto them.
Julianne: Yes.
Penny: She may have been investigating. We don't know.
Julianne: Probably was investigating because that's what librarians do.
Penny: Yes. It's a whole job. That's why there's so many books about it.
Julianne: She was onto them. The assistant librarian back then O'Brien was already doing corrupt money business.
Penny: Yep.
Julianne: So they get rid of Mrs Pollock, They put in O'Brien. He's a stooge
Christina: They open the portal to Narnia.
Julianne: He's a stooge for the corruption in the council. He works there for 30 odd years, but then something goes wrong because if you play with sociopaths, one day they're gonna hit you in the head with a broken jug.
Penny: Well, this is actually even more confirmation of this theory because it says here, he did not provoke Loughnan.
"O'Brien said he had been friendly with Loughnan for 25 or 30 years."
I rest my case.
Christina: Yep.
Julianne: See?
Christina: We are solving this.
Penny: Done.
Julianne: Yeah. Imagine if we spent more time on Trove.
Christina: Imagine.
Penny: There would be no crimes.
Christina: No crime would be left unsolved.
Julianne: I keep trying to work out his age too. So if he's 68 in fifty.
Penny: Two.
Julianne: '52. So 14 years earlier when the other article was happening with the robbery. He was 54 in '38. And then '22
Penny: Oh yeah when he got the job, he would. Yeah. About 40.
Julianne: Yeah.
Christina: So like bizarre.
Julianne: These people are grown-ups.
Christina: Allegedly.
Penny: There's one more heading, "Bounced back."
"Loughnan of Church Street, Richmond, Clerk denied having kicked O'Brien. He said that O'Brien threw the parceled shirt at him and broke his glasses."
Julianne: With a shirt?
Penny: Yep.
Christina: Been starched.
Penny: Pointy collar.
"O'Brien also threw the jug. It bounced back off his hand and hit O'Brien in the face."
That must have been what happened with the rapier cane
Christina: It must have been.
Penny: "Loughnan admitted convictions for assault the last one 7 years ago. Mr Morris SM, ordered Loughnan to pay £9.18 cost."
Christina: Fair enough.
Penny: And then that's the end of the story.
Julianne: I wonder when O'Brien retired?
Penny: Oh, god. You'd hope it was soon.
Julianne: He's working when he's 68.
Penny: Yeah.
Christina: Let it go.
Penny: And then, you know, because we're in 1952 there, so that means we're coming up to the end of when the Trove newspapers are digitized usually up until then.
Julianne: But we need to know more. Let's go find his grave!
Christina: Yeah. Dance on it.
Julianne: I think the whole thing is fishy.
Christina: I think so too.
Penny: I think we say it's fishy. I think we've solved it, though.
Christina: Yes.
Julianne: Yes.
Penny: I don't think
Christina: Definitively.
Julianne: A bit of romance in there
Christina: Yes.
Julianne: A bit of kissing.
Christina: A bit of broken jug action.
Julianne: What was that term? Hitting it, hitting it off?
Christina: Hitting up.
Julianne: Hitting it up.
Penny: Hitting things up.
Christina: 'Would you like to go out and'
Penny: 'Hitting things up?'
Julianne: Hit things up. The language is quite interesting, isn't it?
Christina: It’s bizarre:
Julianne: And interestingly, like, the colorful characters like Cornelius.
Christina: Who is even called Cornelius?
Julianne: I know!
Penny: Well, actually, multiple ex-mayors of Richmond were called Cornelius. He's not the only one.
Christina: I think it'd be a great name for a cat.
Penny: I noticed this morning. Oh it is a beautiful name for a cat.
Christina: Can you get one?
Penny: Or an old elephant.
Penny: So, Julianne
Julianne: Can you imagine going up to Mr O'Brien with a fine? Like, can you imagine him fining you for your late books?
Penny: You know where I think those fines went?
Julianne: Yeah.
Penny/Christina/Julianne: Into his cupboard.
Julianne: Like, he's running some dodgy business.
Christina: Absolutely.
Penny: 100%. He must.
Julianne: I hope he at least knew the Dewey Decimal System back to front.
Christina: Well you would hope so.
Julianne: I hope he had some sort of qualification.
Penny: So, Julianne, do you have any predictions about the future of libraries?
Christina: It's a bit Nostradamus.
Julianne: Yes. All the all the, psychic books have been stolen from the library, so I haven't got any psychic books.
Penny: This is actually kind of a job interview question.
Julianne: I actually think the future is going to be more, about sustainability and sort of enabling people to be more sustainable in their houses. You know, we've got kits where you can check how much electricity your appliances are using or, you know, sort of education things that facilitate going solar. Actually being sort of climate change hubs. It's a space where people can go that is free and air conditioned.
Penny: Yes.
Julianne: We see that a lot in summer. Or hanging out at the library. Obviously, with homelessness, it becomes a place where people can go as well. So if you sort of think that libraries are becoming more about their spaces in terms of future climate crisis and things like that, I actually think they're going to become hubs where people can actually find some sort of haven from climate crisis. I think that's gonna be a big thing.
And the other thing is the library of things. So I think it's gonna be much less about lending out books, but more about lending out things, objects, tools, instruments. I think it's gonna be more about community access to the right to repair things, the right to fix things. People living in apartments who don't have sheds, you know, will be using the tools that are in the library.
Penny: That's very sustainability focused as well in the sense of
Julianne: Yeah. Instead of everyone buying their own things, people will share them through the library. But they won't be, cataloged according to the colonial Dewey Decimal System.
Penny: Oh, don't let we we'd have to do a whole another pod
Julianne: On the decolonizing.
Christina: DD.
Julianne: But yeah, I think it's gonna be more about stuff and space. Access to rooms, access to technology, access to things.
Penny: Christina has never laughed so much on this podcast as today. I think I can pretty safely say that.
Christina: Definitely.
Penny: We have loved having you here.
Julianne: I've laughed, cried my mascara off.
Penny: That's our aim. Thank you, Julianne.
1:00:29 (jaunty piano music soprano part)
1:00:38 Julianne: Oh, now I wanna be a corrupt librarian who has money in the cupboard.
Christina: Yeah, money in the cupboard. Everyone wants to have some money in the cupboard.
Julianne: The most valuable thing in the cupboard is, you know, some kids Pokemon card.