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To respond to the challenging times we are living through, physician, humanitarian and social justice advocate Dr. Paul Zeitz has identified “Revolutionary Optimism” as a new cure for hopelessness, despair, and cynicism. Revolutionary Optimism is itself an infectious, contagious, self-created way of living and connecting with others on the path of love. Once you commit yourself as a Revolutionary Optimist, you can bravely unleash your personal power, #unify with others, and accelerate action for our collective repair, justice, and peace, always keeping love at the center.
Voiceover - 00:00:03:
Welcome to Revolutionary Optimism. Living at this time in history, we are challenged with the convergence of crises that is affecting our daily lives. Issues like economic hardship, a teetering democracy, and the worsening climate emergency have left many Americans feeling more despair than ever. To respond to the challenging times we are living through, physician, humanitarian, and social justice advocate Dr. Paul Zeitz has identified Revolutionary Optimism as a new cure for hopelessness, despair, and cynicism. Once you commit yourself as a revolutionary optimist, you can bravely unleash your personal power, hashtag unify with others, and accelerate action for our collective repair, justice, and peace. On this podcast, Dr. Paul Zeitz is working to provide you with perspectives from leaders fighting for equity, justice, and peace on their strategies, insights, and tools for overcoming adversity and driving forward revolutionary transformation with unbridled optimism and real-world pragmatism. In this episode, Dr. Paul Zeitz is talking with Rivera Sun, an acclaimed author, activist, and educator known for her passionate commitment to social justice and nonviolent activism. With a deep understanding of the power of peaceful resistance, Rivera has dedicated her work to inspiring positive change in the world. Her books and writings explore the transformative potential of nonviolent movements, providing insights that empower individuals and communities to create a more just and equitable society. Here's your host, Dr. Paul Zeitz.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:01:36:
I have been immersing myself in your writings, but I wanted to start off with a question about you personally. Like, how did you become an activist? How did you get involved with nonviolent? Movement building.
Rivera Sun - 00:01:50:
Back in 2011, when Occupy happened, I was living in a little town called Santa Cruz, California, and the Occupy encampment actually happened right across the street from my high rent location where I lived. So I had a lot of empathy, but not much knowledge about participating in protests, but it was unavoidable, undeniable. So I was out there across the street, although I would go home to sleep in my bed, not camp out with Occupy. But coming out of that experience, it really made me think about this was amazing. It was extraordinary. It challenged so much. It broke through so many kind of lies and misperceptions about wealth and inequality in the U.S. And I left wondering how to do it even better, how to organize successful movements. So I started poking around, and about the same time, I started writing my novel, The Dandelion Insurrection, which posited a hidden corporate dictatorship in a slightly fictionalized United States. And I got my characters in a bit of a pickle. I had all the problems laid out, but I didn't know how to solve them. So like any self-respecting millennial, I googled it. How to bring down dictators nonviolently. I thought maybe somebody had written some sci-fi about it. But what came back was four million hits on the amazing nonviolent revolutions that have transformed our world in the past hundred years, from the fall of the Soviet Union to the people power revolution in the Philippines. And I started learning as much as I could because it seemed like these types of tactics have been a powerful political force in our world. And just like knowing how to drive, it's an essential skill to understand in times like this.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:03:46:
Well, that's an amazing story. So the Occupy Movement experience. Was in 2011. And that opened up your heart and soul to this pursuit of nonviolent movement building. And now you have been your leading champion of that. You published the Nonviolent News, which is an online resource, which I have found very helpful. And I have shared with a lot of my movement colleagues regularly since I learned about it. So what were you doing before 2011? Like, that's like a big leap. And I want to like, we want to invite my our listeners to make that leap as well. So like, it's it's interesting, maybe for you to share, like, what was going on in your life before that. That you were receptive and open to making that transformation.
Rivera Sun - 00:04:39:
Yeah, I grew up in a politically conscious family. We ran a small organic farm and started a cooperative of 10 small farms to get local produce into grocery stores in the state of Maine. When I went to school, to college, I decided to be a dance major. It was the year 2000 when we had a notoriously unjust political election. And like many young people my age, I tuned out. I felt very disempowered by the status quo of politics. I felt like elites were very much in charge of the show and people like me didn't matter very much. So while I cared passionately about social justice, I didn't know where to put that passion. And as I went through college and then went out into the world, I channeled a lot of that into the dance and the theater that I was creating. But I didn't really... Really understand how to participate in social movements. And that's why Occupy was so significant, was it really showed me where people power was found and kind of reactivated and re-energized not just my care and concern for people and planet, but also my curiosity. And sense of empowerment about what to do about that care and concern. And so that's how I got on that trajectory.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:06:05:
Yeah, that's amazing. From dancing and poetry. And now author and leading activist in nonviolent movements. It's quite a journey. So for my listeners, I think it's a really important opportunity as we're kicking off this new season of revolutionary optimism and we're entering this exciting year of 2024. I wanted to ask you a series of questions about and ask you to help us make sense or sense making, of what is happening and what is possible during these tumultuous times. I think that our listeners are very much aware of the poly crises that are affecting all of us, the sense of our weakening or collapsing democracy, the climate emergency, the economic inequality, etc., etc. So, but I think from your perspective, I really want to hear, you know, I've been really digging in on Rise and Resist, which is a series of essays. That you've written. That are drawn from the character in the Dandelion Insurrection. The first of your trilogy. Novel trilogy. And you talk about the state of democracy, you know, from the in this book, and I would like to ask you, if you could characterize what your assessment is, of the state of our us democracy, like right now.
Rivera Sun - 00:07:37:
With democracy.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:07:39:
What democracy, she says.
Rivera Sun - 00:07:40:
What democracy? You know, and this was probably in 2013 or 14, you know, Jimmy Carter got up and told listeners in Europe that, you know, there is no functional democracy in the United States. What we functionally have is something called plutocracy. There are a couple other words we could use, oligarchy. But the concepts are the same. It is the rule of the rich and the business classes. And in around 2014 as as well, an important study was published at Princeton called the Princeton Oligarchy Study. And it showed that over a 20-year period, when we look at federal legislation, we the people got our way 0.0% of the time on over 2,000 bills that went before Congress in that period. Now, The only caveat to that is when our opinions happen to align with those of wealthy individuals or businesses. Because they were getting stuff through Congress. But any time we the people wanted something that one of those two groups didn't. We did not get our way. So we don't have a functional political system that is responsive to even the demonstrated will of people. We have a system of government that responds to rich people and business interests. And so there are languages that describe that, plutocracy being one of them, oligarchy being another. But democracy is not one of those words. And I think until we really take that seriously as a populace, then we can't even begin to deal with the problem. We can't say, well, what would put people in power? What would make sure that when we express our will, it gets enacted through our political leaders? And this is very much at the core of both the fiction work that I do and some of the activism and organizing that I'm involved in.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:09:45:
Yeah, so if I understand you, and I don't disagree. I actually agree with your assessment. And what I've had to confront for myself, and I just want to check this with you, is like, I have to give up the story in my head that I'm living in a powerful democracy. I have to give up the stories from my childhood of the intent of our founders, you know, of Betsy Ross sewing that flag and, you know, all these people that were fighting for justice and, you know, liberty and justice for all we pledge, you know. And I have to give all that up and really take off the veils of that lie to really get at this root. Is that what you're saying?
Rivera Sun - 00:10:30:
It's so painful and terrifying, right? I mean, we should always hold on to our aspiration toward democracy. It is a beautiful thing. It is a value to humanity. But I think we have to be realistic about what is going on functionally, not the platitudes, not the things that the political parties say every election cycle, not the things that we learned in school, but what is functionally happening? Because otherwise we can't make sense of our world. We can't understand why the average citizen is getting poorer and poorer and why the wealthy individuals are getting wealthier and wealthier. We can't understand why we can't get decent health care at affordable prices in this country. We can't understand why there's been very little progress made on the climate crisis until you understand that the Federal Government is not responding to the cry of the people. You know, most people, don't know this, but we actually have a majority consensus in this country on climate action. 60% of this country want immediate climate action.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:11:40:
Mmm.
Rivera Sun - 00:11:41:
That news to you? I mean, most people don't know this because we're taught it's a divisive issue, but increasingly it is not.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:11:49:
Yeah, no, that's a stark reminder of the situation that we're in. And I think it is painful. And it is hard for people to wrap their heads around that. And to understand the implications of that. What do you think are the implications of that going into this 2024 election?
Rivera Sun - 00:12:09:
Mmm. Well, I think we have to be pragmatic about this election, meaning that there is a difference between the two major candidates who are being brought forward. And there is an even bigger difference between what they represent and what we actually need in this country. So one thing I think a lot about when I think about this kind of entrenched stalemate around the federal power is where else does power lie? Where else do decisions get made? Where else do people have the ability to make an immediate and direct impact on their lives, their communities' lives, that of their friends and neighbors? Because when we start to recognize that, we break through the other big myth, which is that only the federal legislators and federal powers can save us, right? Which is not true. Every piece and sector of society, from churches to small businesses to banks and credit unions to schools and universities to neighbors and community groups, we all have the power to enact change. And we are constantly making those choices. One way or another, to show up. And I think if we recognize all these source points of power and we start to use them to enact and construct the world that we desperately need, I think we start to find sources of hope where we might feel the opposite in considering some of the tough things about our federal government.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:13:47:
Yeah, no, I think you're right. And I have so many questions, I don't know where to start. As a doctor, by training, I'm frequently like I want a diagnosis and then I want solutions. That's kind of how my brain was trained. So I have done a lot of research and we spoke about this a lot on the last season of Revolutionary Optimism about the diagnosis is that we have constitutional rot. Our current constitution was written by white male oligarchs, as you said, who wrote it to. Protect their own power. And their own control over society and people. And they did that by... Legalizing slavery and oppression of women and other... Uh, viable people or strong people living at that time. And while there have been phases of renewal and transformation, like after the Civil War and with the voting, the suffragette movement and even the civil rights movement. Those are kind of blips of renewal and transformation. The underlying system of oppression that was established 237 years ago is still working like a charm. What do you think of that? Is that right? Do I have that right? Or tell me, I'd love to hear your analysis of the state of our constitutional order.
Rivera Sun - 00:15:19:
Well, I agree a lot with your historical overview that we have a constitution that was put in place for a reason and to empower certain trends of political organizing, which do not benefit the people. And I think that, you know, many of the access movements or movements of suffrage have been about trying to gain enough political inclusion so that we have a mass of people and representatives in that system in order to transform it or use it in meaningful ways that take care and affirm the people. And it's really a question of, is that possible anymore? Is that going to act swiftly enough for some of the crises that we face? We know with the climate crisis, for example, we don't have an endless timeline. We need that action to come in the next 10 years at most, more like three to five years. And so... You know, we have a constitution that favors wealth, it favors corporations at this point, it favors money, and it disfavors other interests, no matter how moral or legitimate they are. So I think, you know, there's really a couple strands. We need to address that in many ways. We can address access to that system so the long-held vision of better representation could be enacted through it. We could address it in terms of what Chile did, which in 2019 had a nonviolent, mostly nonviolent movement for a new constitution to overturn the dictatorship-era constitution and replace it. We could also, you know, continue to recognize where the other sources of power and organizing lie and continue to build our power in that way. And then we can also have a very robust and meaningful conversation and popular movement, let's say, around what democracy even means. Does it mean voting for people to represent us or does it mean making decisions about things that impact our lives? These are, you know, Paul, these are kind of things that I've had, like you, I've had this great privilege, which is that I've spent 10 to 12 years reading, writing and researching about it. When I first wrote Dandelion Insurrection, I got to confront that idea that we have something terribly wrong with our system of government. And I got to download that whole list of how people have responded to dictatorships and authoritarian regimes. And as I learned more, I got to do the same process of revision and research and inclusion with the roots of resistance and really talk about how do you push back against counter-revolutionary forces? Once you change the powers that be, how do you make sure they stay changed? And then ultimately, in the third book, talking about the truly revolutionary core of all this conversation, which is that beyond just changing who's in charge of the system that we've got, how do we change the system so that it is inured against the concentration of power and so that it consistently delivers power back to communities of people who can make wiser decisions together?
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:18:38:
Yes, exactly. And yeah, so now we're in 2024. All that information that you've synthesized and processed and novelized to inspire me and my listeners and many, many others. With hope and possibility. I think that's so crucial right now. And I think you've also been unlocking political imagination. Which is also very limited right now. Most people feel trapped within this system. People are frustrated, anxious, despairing. They don't like the choices that are being put before us, but they don't see any way out, you know? And so that's where I have been calling for a peaceful revolution. And I believe that the time has come where that needs to happen. And I want you to challenge me. Or agree, you know. And I want to ask you, my perception is, is that. Something's going on right now. I feel the trembling of a revolution. I have been with the climate activists on the front line. Protesting and they feel like There's revolutionary energy. That they're tapping into. That young this young generation is fed up and tired they've had enough of this all talk and no action. Environment that we're in. And their futures are being jeopardized. Women are now mobilizing. They want to have control over their own bodies. And their own reproductive rights. I would say, and men too, support that. And There is, the peace movement is raging forward now to. Support the rights of the Palestinian people in the face of the violence being perpetrated by the state of Israel. As an example, and the militarism that the United States propagates around the world. The LGBTQ community is mobilizing. To protect their right to marriage and their right to have families as well. The racial equity movement is fed up with... Their second class status. So I'm like out on the streets. I'm in, you know, I'm in connection with these movements. There's also a thriving democracy movement. A rapidly expanding democracy movement. That really accelerated when Trump was elected. 2016. And has been maturing over the last seven or eight years. Where there's hundreds of organizations working on social cohesion. Local democracy hubs. Citizen assemblies, all that kind of thing. So my question for you, and I think you have a chapter in here about are we ready? Are you... Do you think we're ready for a peaceful revolution? Where we could really mobilize the population to recreate our social contract With our government?
Rivera Sun - 00:21:40:
I think conditions are certainly ripening for flashpoints. This is something we know about in social movements, which is that, and Occupy was certainly a great example of this, that conditions ripen for a period of time before a trigger event happens. Maybe it was the murder of George Floyd for Black Lives Matter, for example, or the immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi in Egypt in 2011. You know, And when we have these ripening conditions, we know it's only a matter of time before that flashpoint happens. The question is, how ready are we to surf that wave when it comes, right, and turn it into something really productive? Not just mass protest and mass outcry, which is important. But also... Strategic movements for change. So I do think conditions are ripening, have been ripening for change. I think this particular election is a really stark reminder that the system is terribly broken and people recognize that. And when frustration levels at the intraction or intractability of political leaders rise, we often see out-of-the-box solutions coming forward. I think the big question when we're talking democracy is that democracy is very radical. It's not just the people who agree with all those social justice causes that you just enumerated. There's also the people who disagree with them or who are frightened by them or who are unsure about them or for whom they are not a priority. And so like peace, which is also a very radical concept, if we really want a democracy, we can't just imagine a democracy among the people who already agree with us. We have to think about those practices and the respect with with which we treat our own populace. And people. Whether they agree with us or not. And that is very challenging. And maybe one of those necessary ripening conditions if we want to really take on the political elites, right? If we do not... Remember the importance of treating people who disagree with us with some basic respect. Even if they're not ready to do that for us. Then we have no business mucking around with what we think we call democracy. Because democracy is not about getting your way.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:24:20:
Hmm.
Rivera Sun - 00:24:21:
Democracy is about working together to come to greater understanding and decisions that work for your fellow citizens. And we're talking 320 plus million people. That's a lot of people. Many of whom... Uh, are fairly divided on many issues, and certainly have been told that we are very divided, whether or not we actually are. We do know that we have majority consensus on surprising things like gun control, abortion access, climate action, taxing the rich. And I think that when we remember that, you know, We the people are not actually divided on this, it gives you a lot more hope for this political revolution that you think about.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:25:10:
That Exactly. Yes. And, uh... That's why I'm so excited because I feel like the... Grassroots democracy movement is revving up. And active. And there's this bridging movement also, which is... Building social cohesion. Between people with different opinions. Like Braver Angels and the Listen First Project and efforts like this that are national in scope. And local and national. And they're actually doing that work that you describe. And I totally agree with you. And actually step four of. Revolutionary Optimism, the seven steps, is about peace crafting. And it's about learning how to. Be a good listener and... Understand that there are multiple points of view. And treating each other with respect and building trust actually with people with different points of view so that we can generate. Common sense solutions, which the majority want. It's the people on the extremes that don't want that, right? They want to... Maintain their control. Um, So... I appreciate your perspective on that. You know, let's play this out a little bit further. We have... There's a lot of people that are writing and talking about, and even Donald Trump himself. Has talked about suspending the Constitution. Being a dictator on day one, He has the Heritage Foundation. Published a report called Project 2025, which is a blueprint for dismantling the administrative state which protects these rights. And also they plan to take away a lot of the rights. That people are now enjoying around. Those issues that I mentioned earlier. Uh, You know, there's different things that could happen. He could outright win the election. He could lose the election and then contest the result of the election. And he could spark political violence. Either as a failed candidate or Even he could. Use violence as part of his. Authoritarian control of our country. I laid out a lot of different scenarios there, and I'd love to hear you unpack that a little bit. And give us a sense of... What might be possible depending on what scenario occurs.
Rivera Sun - 00:27:35:
Right. Well, you might have to remind me of option two and three down the road, but we'll get there. So fortunately for the U.S. Populace at this moment. The humanity has been dealing with these types of scenarios for ages. And we've been responding to them with varieties of tactics, including violence, including civil wars, including counter coups, you know, and including nonviolent action. And we now know from empirical fact-based studies that nonviolent action is actually twice as successful as violent options in stopping these kind of things and getting rid of these kind of things. It's mind-blowing. But so, you know, that is one thing to think about is what are the tools that we're going to use? And I personally prefer to use the most effective tools. When it comes to something like stopping a coup, there's some incredible examples of this, of how people have done this around the world. Before Hitler took power in Germany, there was a coup attempt in 1920, and the people stopped it with a general strike. To the point where the coup leaders wanted to print out pamphlets or flyers banning all sorts of things. But they couldn't because there were no typists to type the things. No mimeographed peoples to run out the copies. Nobody go put them up in the square. So this is how nonviolent struggle can be incredibly potent in terms of denying would-be dictators our... Cooperation and our consent. So as a populist, becoming familiar with stories like these, understanding how the power of nonviolent action actually works to thwart coups and dictatorships is very important. I personally had a wonderful opportunity to be part of the 2020 campaign that stopped Trump from stealing the election last time. And got to have a fairly front row seat with some fellow organizers who come from this field of non-balance struggle or civil resistance and have been watching these kind of campaigns all over the world. And, you know, I got to watch how we shored up democratic institutions, how we defended election officials from intimidations and threat that were aimed at getting them to fold or concede and not do their job. I got to see how this campaign pressured major corporate media outlets to count every vote and to narrate the story of an election in which we're going to take the time to count those votes. And how this created a condition in which when Trump said, oh, I won, a lot of people looked at that and said, I don't think so. We don't necessarily even know yet, which undermined his credibility right from the beginning. And this continued all the way up through January 6th, which was problematic enough. But without the effort of this campaign, what if there were a million people literally in D.C. Trying to pull off that insurrection? What if they had more armed groups?
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:30:54:
You mean on January 6th?
Rivera Sun - 00:30:55:
On January 6th, yeah. So I know it's not just historical examples from other countries. It's the fact that we actually have done this once before that should give us a little bit of hope. Now, I would say if Trump goes so far as to suspend the Constitution, that is a huge red flag for this populace. And we should be ready to mobilize and to shut down our country and non-cooperate and go on strike and to call upon our civil servants and every level of government to do the same. To stop someone from suspending the Constitution. There's no excuse for that. In this scenario.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:31:36:
Yeah, thank you. You said something really super important, which I want to highlight. Which is that, as I'm calling for a peaceful revolution, I'm not saying that the whole population has to be on the streets. Fighting, you know, or protesting or marching, although that would be welcome, because studies do show we need at least like 3.5%, or maybe 5% of the population, which is only like 15 million people, or, you know, 15 to 18 million people, that seems doable. But the more important thing is what you said, I think, which is that the broader population is denying cooperation and consent. And they're doing nonviolent resistance from their desktop or from their office or from the church or from the school or wherever they are. That is what I want people to understand, that a peaceful revolution isn't about 300 million people on the street. You know, it's about a collective red line saying we're not going to tolerate this.
Rivera Sun - 00:32:45:
Right. And when we look at nonviolent struggle, it's very important to understand the distinction between those acts of protest and persuasion, which are powerful for many reasons, including alerting people to what's going on, showing that your side has support and consensus of people, delivering a clear message to power holders. But those alone are often not enough. And we need to draw on two other kind of categories of action, that of non-cooperation, like boycotts or strikes or stay at homes or call in six or shutdowns, and that of intervention. And this is where we get in the way of injustice. So things like blockades, certain types of shutdowns actually also fall in this category. You know, stopping deliveries. Going and making sure someone can't travel across the road. So acts of civil disobedience where you lock down to things like pipeline offenders are doing. So when you know the whole toolbox of nonviolent action, and there are over 300 different types of actions, you understand that just as a hammer is different from a screwdriver is different from a saw. So two are the tools of nonviolent struggle. You can't use a saw to hammer in a nail. That's just not going to work. And you know what? If you try to use your screwdriver to cut a board, you're going to be there for a long time. But if you want to build a house, you need all three. So. We too, if we want to build a new society, we need all of the types of nonviolent action. And we need to know how to use them and when to use them and how. Fortunately, you can, like me, Google all this information at this point anyway and read all about it, take a webinar, study up, and actually become quite a skillful agent of change at a time when it's not just our country, but humanity and the entire planet needs us to know these things.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:34:48:
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's what I'm committed to through this podcast and through my work is to expand the circle of people who understand. The situation that we're in and the opportunity that we have for transformational revolutionary healing, and repair of our broken systems. And I loved essay 18 in Rise and Resist, which is called Impossible Courage. And it talks about the opportunity that we have to confront the impossible. So that's frequently what I'm challenged with. People say it's impossible to mobilize a national people's convention and have delegations that are authentically representative of constituencies across the country, both geographically and by all other intersectional constituency approaches that could be created. And then we could write a new social contract. People tell me that's impossible. I think it's imminently possible and urgently needed, personally. It's an extra constitutional solution to the crisis. Most people are like... Willing to maybe talk about the provisions within the Constitution for transformation. But I think we need to go beyond that personally. So anyway, I love these questions that you included in this essay about the central questions about the strategies for waging nonviolent struggle. And I wanted to ask you these questions in the context of our situation here in the United States in 2024 and 2025. You follow the logic here?
Rivera Sun - 00:36:29:
Okay. Yeah. You better read those questions loud.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:36:32:
If you looked at, I'm asking you to take a, you know, kind of meta view of the movements as you understand them right now and the situation that we're in. And, you know, our quest for a love-centered, justice-based, authentic democracy versus what the oligarchy we have now. So what are our strengths? Right now to being able to achieve that.
Rivera Sun - 00:36:57:
Well, one of our strengths is that we actually have widespread discontent. It maybe doesn't always feel like a strength, but it actually is. A second strength is that we do have these multi-pronged democracy movements that are, while fairly small at this point, have been increasing rapidly in our populace's understanding of how important they are. Think about social cohesion and reducing polarization as two specific examples. I think a third strength is that we still have fairly free access to information, which if you study global struggles, you don't take for granted. So I would really encourage people to use this opportunity to find resistance groups and join them, to find democracy groups and show up at. A people-powered democracy process. To be in communication with your friends and neighbors, to learn all that you can right now and be an ambassador of that knowledge to people who maybe are not as tuned in to this podcast or other things like it. I would say also in a strange way, the crises that we face. Are a strength in that they... Show us the urgency of this conversation. It is not a question mark on many of these issues how fast we need to move. It is obvious and evident. And it should embolden us. It should give us courage. And things like the climate crisis, with this profound question of revolutionizing our relationship to ecology in every aspect of our society and in our constitution, etc., should be a reminder of why we have to be realistic and demand the impossible.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:38:55:
Okay, excellent. That was really inspiring. I love the way you rattled off those five things. Now, to continue the inquiry per your book, what are our weaknesses?
Rivera Sun - 00:39:09:
Mm. I think there are still a lot of people who would rather hang on to the old system than explore the new. And the fear of abandoning what little political power each side of our duopoly thinks that they have through the political elites holds people back. From being willing to seriously consider where they may find even greater power among people that they may or may not agree with.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:39:40:
Hmm.
Rivera Sun - 00:39:40:
I think that's a weakness. I think also with the compounding crises, there are a lot of people who are just trying to survive these crises, don't have a lot of extra bandwidth. So a weakness might be needing to be skillful at explaining the why of this change to people who may not have much time to take it in, or the how of it to people who don't have an hour to listen to a podcast even. And then another weakness is that our media apparatus is very controlled. We have this wonderfully open internet and we have very siloed websites and a lot of political division among them. And then we have corporate media, which really doesn't want us to be having these conversations. So... We will be up against them.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:40:37:
Because they're part of the oligarch.
Rivera Sun - 00:40:39:
Right, yeah.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:40:39:
And they want to protect the status quo.
Rivera Sun - 00:40:41:
Right. So we will be up against that media propaganda machine with any major change that we want to see. So that's daunting.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:40:51:
Yeah. How can we wisely use our strengths to aggravate their weaknesses?
Rivera Sun - 00:40:56:
Well, I would say that this discontent, these are the days of our discontents. If we can... Tell a narrative about that near universal frustration that stops dividing our populace against itself and instead clearly puts the problem on the shoulders of those who have caused it, i.e. Our political elites, that would be one way of using our strengths to exploit their weakness. Their weakness is that they're wrong, you know, that they have been abusing their power and refusing to use it on behalf of people and planet for far too long. So truth is on our side. That's another strength. And if we can use that to, instead of having them divide and conquer us, use it to heal, unite, and liberate all of us together.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:41:52:
Yeah, so actually that's where I'm at. We need a social and political movement that does that. Because both of these, the duopoly. They send out, like they pretend they're for people and planet on the one hand. And on the other hand, they like tap into. Populist rage by activating fear and division. You know, so both of those camps are preventing the third truth. You know, a social political movement that... Would stand for the people and build an authentic democracy. So that's the conundrum, I think, that we're in, in a way. But I'm excited because I think that, like what you said, all those strengths are really true. And the level of discontent is so vast right now and increasing, as we expect it will, with the worsening crises. That maybe there's a spark of opportunity to... Crashed in through and bring forward. A love-centered, peaceful revolution. Do you ever get despairing or overwhelmed with hopelessness? And what do you do besides write a book or a poem to heal that part of yourself or to respond to that part of yourself?
Rivera Sun - 00:43:13:
I think we all feel that from time to time to more or less degrees. I think what has been an enduring source of inspiration, even hope, is to really listen to stories from around the world. Here in our U.S. Bubble, with our exceptionalism, we can think we're so unique, like we are the only people who have ever faced political corruption or would-be dictators or coups or existential crises. But the reality is that our fellow human beings around the world have faced this over and over and over again. And this is why I edit non-violence news, is so that I can be in touch with these stories. People are so courageous. They are so brave. They are so willing to stand up for what's right, even when the odds seem so impossible. They make what we're facing right now look minuscule by comparison. And when you study history along with current examples, you start to see that over and over again, people are succeeding. We've had 50 successful nonviolent revolutions in the last 40 years. Far more than that, actually. This is an older statistic. But yeah, when I remember those stories. It gives me the strength and the courage to meet our times. And the other thing that helps is to toss out this myth that has circulated. Out of the consumer and capitalist society, that we are born to be consumers of products, to work and to amass nice things in our houses and then pass it on to our children. That's a myth. It's a lie. It's just one story about why we're here as human beings, and it's completely unworkable for these times. So I like to remind myself of what I believe. Which is that... We are here to be here in these times. To be transformational, to be revolutionary, to have the courage to meet this existential moment for the human species, and to come out soaring on the other side. If we think of human history as one long story from the dawn of our existence, hopefully long, long into the future, this is the climax moment. This is the sink or swim moment. This is where the book either ends or keeps going in an infinite series into the future. And just like every good character on the page, why wouldn't we want to be here for these times? This is where the action is at. It is where the excitement is at. It is where the danger is at. And this is where the heroic moment, the heroic struggle is happening. And I'm so glad to be here right now.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:46:09:
Well, thank you so much for those inspiring messages. Your clarity of insight and drawing on that global experience and bringing that forward here in our own country, the United States at this time. I think that is truly admirable. And I just want to salute everything that you're up to. Encourage my listeners to go to riverasun.com to learn about your books and your poetry, and then nonviolentnews.org. Which is the place where you can get all this information. About nonviolent struggles. Happening around the world today and also the repository from the past. So thank you, Rivera, for all you're up to. And I think, uh, let's see what happens. This could be the year of the, of the revolution. If, if we're, if we're lucky, the peaceful revolution.
Rivera Sun - 00:47:07:
Thank you so much, Paul, for these important and vital conversations in these times. It warms my heart to know that you're in this world along with me.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:47:21:
Well, thank you so much for listening to that amazing interview with Rivera Sun, author and activist, an expert on nonviolent civil disobedience. Rivera's son is without a doubt an extraordinary revolutionary optimist. She is an expert on nonviolent civil disobedience and nonviolent struggle. And she talked about amazing ways in which... All of you, all of my listeners can become involved in nonviolent action. To create a better country and a better world. If we want to fight for our democracy, if we want to fight to address the climate emergency, if we want to fight for economic equality in our country and all the other rights that we care about. Listening to Rivera Sun's wisdom is critically important. We need to learn from her about what she talked about was, yes, we need to mobilize with protests. And that's a critical part of persuasion of policymakers and the public that a revolutionary transformation is possible. And we have other ways that we can do action. We can deny cooperation and deny consent. With the way things are happening, if we are in a situation that we're dissatisfied with. Rivera gave us a lot of information about the strengths of our movement and our ability to spark a peaceful revolution if and when the circumstances are ripe and ready for us to go. We are readying ourselves right now. In light of what is coming. There could be climate catastrophe. There could be a coup. There could be a political violence that's unleashed in the coming year. And so this episode really excited me with optimism about what we can do to be ready if there is a flashpoint that would warrant a political revolution or a political mobilization. So Rivera Sun is a leader in our movement of Revolutionary Optimism. And please listen to her and check out her. Teachings, her writings, her poetry, and her information about nonviolent movements. Thank you, and have a great day.
Voiceover - 00:50:01:
Are you ready to be part of the revolution? To learn more about Revolutionary Optimism, please visit drpaulzeitz.org. To explore building movements, please visit unifymovements.org. If you like this show, be sure to follow on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss an episode. Revolutionary Optimism, transforming the world one episode at a time.