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The voice of the American Consortium for Equity in Education at ace-ed.org | Host Larry Jacobs facilitates rich discussions with innovative educators, thought leaders, authors and the leaders within the education industry to promote equity, access and opportunity for every student in every school.
I'm David Cicero, and this
is Education Talk Radio.
Schools often spend a great deal of
time responding to student behavior,
and while those responses pile
up, they translate to costing the
organization in some meaningful ways.
Every disruption affects teaching,
learning, and school culture.
Vaping is one example.
While it's often viewed as a student
discipline or health issue, it's
increasingly become an operational
challenge for school leaders.
We're gonna explore how schools can
move beyond reacting to vaping incidents
and begin building a more thoughtful,
comprehensive approach to prevention.
Today, we're joined by Tom McDermott, K-12
safety and security coach for CEIA USA.
For decades, Tom has worked with
school districts across the country,
helping leaders think through complex
safety challenges and build long-term
strategies that protect students while
supporting teaching and learning.
Welcome to the show, Tom.
Uh, good morning.
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
You know, I mentioned it in the
opener here, um, that vaping is often
talked about as a student discipline
issue or a health issue, right?
Like just it's bad behavior.
But from your perspective, why has it
become a leadership issue for schools?
Well, wow, the great question.
Um, you know, the challenge
is most people think w- vaping
is such a general, uh, term.
Most people have no idea what's
really going on with vaping in
there and, you know, addiction with
nicotine or even, you know, THC.
That's, that's not the
real issue these days.
It's, it's kids, uh, collapsing
and having seizures in class, uh,
because the chemicals, uh, that
are now in these e-cigarettes, um,
are hard to keep up with, um, with
the laws and things like that.
So it's actually become a serious, serious
health issue and risk issue for schools,
uh, more so than just, "Oh, kids are,
you know, smoking like, you know, we grew
up kids, you know, smoking cigarettes."
This is nothing like that.
It's a very, very different
issue that they're dealing with.
What you're pointing to is that it is the,
as the ingredients change, it's affecting
students' health in extreme ways.
Extreme ways, which is, uh,
you know, obviously disruptive.
I mean, of course, there's kids that
are just, you know, zoning out in
class and because of the different
chemicals and drugs in there.
So that's an issue, just
not paying attention.
But then, you know, take that to the
extreme and, and, uh, you know, if
you look at a range of issues, if you
will, of health issues, but from them
just not paying attention to, uh,
literally having seizures in class,
um, and then having to, you know, call
an ambulance and things like that.
These are real issues
every day in schools today.
So itâ¦
And it's, they're, um, many are
considering it an epidemic Right.
So it sounds like there's some
misunderstandings about the
true impact on student health.
Absolutely.
What is theâ¦
Right.
What are the, some of those hidden
impacts on the actual school system?
Yeah.
Just m- mainly disruption.
You know, there's so many behavioral
issues, if you will, and mental
health issues going on in schools
these day, which is one of the many
reasons, you know, students are,
uh, uh, getting addicted and, and
vaping because of the, you know,
from bullying to all kinds of issues.
It's just become a real challenge to te-
first of all teach why, why they're there.
Um, so that disruption, are
kids really paying attention?
If I'm a teacher, that's a real
challenge for kids not paying attention
or clearly out of it, if you will,
clearly on drugs, to the extreme
of having to call an ambulance.
So that disruption, and you think about
the ripple effect, so one teacher in
a classroom is having issues with,
with students and she's gotta call
the principal 'cause she's not sure
what's going on with a student.
Um, and then, you know, ki- and
kids, by the way, are texting
each other while this is going on.
So mobile phones and other
things, this is going on.
They're texting.
Then if you get an ambulance
call, everyone, of course, school
hears about it, and they're
testing each, texting each other.
So that disruption, it really
makes it incredibly challenging
for schools to actually, you know,
teach what they're there for.
So, and then therefore, students
that do want to learn, that makes it
challenging for them because their
learning opportunity is distracted
and, you know, interrupted and
it, it's, it's a real challenge.
Do you feel like schools have a leadership
responsibility in terms of health,
maybe beyond Um, providing like a health
course Yeah, I mean, they have to.
U- unfortunately they have to.
Um, so you know, from behavioral
health and mental health and wellness,
they're now having to really get
involved there and have a founda- if,
if they want to create a safe learning
environment, if you will, they have to.
Um, they're going to conferences now,
bringing in experts now for, um, you
know, not only vape is, is, is a very
specific issue, but le- great leaders
at schools now realize, um, this is one
of the many issues, uh, that they have
to deal with unfortunately, um, because
of what's going on in our culture,
but because of, uh, what's going on
in homes or not going on in homes as
far as leadership and parenting going
on, that schools have to take on more
and more and more of these roles that
would normally happen in the home.
And of course, we know there's
lots of reasons of why it's not
happening at home, but it isn't.
So they're having to take on ma-
i- if they want to create a, a good
learning environment, a safe learning
environment, uh, they have to become,
they have to have expert- they don't
have to, superintendents if you will,
or the entire administration team don't
have to have that expertise, but they
have to be bringing them in as one of
the pillars of learning these days is
mental health and wellness, and really
create a culture, uh, based on that
if they really, really wanna succeed
and bring kids along really learning
and be a great school for learning.
They have to, um, have that expertise
or bring in that expertise and commit
to it as, as part of their culture.
Does vaping cause a ripple
effect among students?
And what I, what I mean by that is
if you've got one or two or just
a small handful of students that
are vaping, do you see it spread?
Oh, yeah ⦠to other students, right?
Yeah, for, for sure.
And, and, and a couple
of reasons for that.
One, just like, you know, again,
any generation grows up, you
know, kids wanna fit in, right?
So that's number one.
Uh, number two is, um, they see
other friends doing it, and it's
like, "Oh, it's no big deal,"
so bringing them along is easy.
One of the bigger problems, though, today,
um, is these vapes with these chemicals
that aren't illegal yet, uh, these new
compounds, these new chemical, uh, things.
You know, they came up with Delta-8
and then Delta-9, and there's so
many new chemicals coming along
that our laws aren't keeping up.
So they can literally just grab
it off the shelf almost like candy
at, you know, the local convenience
store, at the local gas station.
They can just grab it off
the sh- shelf, so it's easy.
So it's also interpreted as,
oh, it's safe, it's no big deal.
Um, 'cause they don't even have to beâ¦
Well, they're supposed to be
18 to buy some of these things.
Um, they don't have to be, and they
can get them, you know, right over
the counter, and it's no big deal.
So for them, it's perceived
as, oh, it's, it's just, you
know, it's just something fun.
It's just a little buzz.
It's no big deal.
So it's much easier for them
to, one, get addicted, um, and,
you know, do some serious harm.
Um, but it most- it's like anything
else, so kids are trying to fit in.
Right.
Right.
So there's a social aspect to
this, maybe a little bit of peer
pressure, although you didn't say it.
Little bit of peer pressure.
And then the- Yep.
You know, again, and a lot more cultural
challenges these days, so the desire
to, um, have something, uh, again, just
like whether it's a beer or something
like that, whether, you know, some-
something to make myself feel better
and escape this pain, um, if it's
easy, something I could just grab,
that just makes it that much easier.
So when you walk into a district
that's actually struggling with
vaping, what patterns, what
patterns do you tend to see?
What areâ¦
Why can't they just solve it?
Yeah.
Well, it does start with that.
Y- you know, there's,
there's a couple things.
There's one is, are you trying to attack
it from kind of after the fact, um,
or you, you attack it from, you know,
the base, the core problem, right?
So many, how they're trying to deal with
it is detection, vape detection, and, you
know, they're putting their sensors that
can pick up the vaporization, uh, if you
will, the vapor in the air, and there's
vape sensors over the last few years that
they've put throughout schools, mostly in
the bathrooms, 'cause kids will go in the
bathroom in, in between classes and, and,
and sneak a, sneak a toke in the bathroom.
So a lot of schools have put vape
detectors in there to catch it.
But that hasn't worked so well.
It worked a little bit, um, early
on 'cause kids didn't know it.
So early on it, uh, alerted
them and they can go to the
bathroom and, and catch the kids.
And it worked as a deterrent for
a bit, but then students figured
out, you know, how to get around
it and, uh, and things like that.
But again, that's after the fact.
It's really the prevention ahead of
time, like anything else, uh, whether
it's, you know, Mothers Against Drunk
Driving or other things we have to do
culturally to help change it, to talk to
students, to talk to parents about it.
You've gotta catch it early on, and
that's why I talk about the culture
matters of leadership And are we
concerned about these problems?
Just like bullying or anything
else, this is a social issue, and
we've gotta tackle it head on.
So it's about leaders, and, uh, what
I mean leaders at both at a district
level and at a school level really, uh,
um, if they're not becoming experts,
you know, bring experts in, having
somebody on the team, leadership
team, that's well-educated, informed.
Uh, there's conferences on
these subjects sadly now.
Um, so we have to tackle it head on
and collectively as a community, and
I mean as a school community and with
parents' help, um, really educating the
students on, on another serious issue.
Um, and that's really to me
the only way to solve it.
No different than, I'm in the, you
know, weapons and detection business.
We have to talk about how to fix some
of these underlying cultural issues
and access to guns and other things.
To me it's, it's no different.
Um, it's just that's the only way to
tackle it head on is, is educating
people about the problem and h- heading
it off at the pass before their child
gets, gets involved and addicted.
So if I, if I see it, it appears that
some students are vaping or I already
have, uh, a serious issue with vaping
at my school, before I start looking
for solutions and jump to solving it
or, or, or looking up technologies,
you've mentioned quite a few times
trying to understand that core problem.
So what should I be asking before
I actually jump to the solution?
Uh, uh, as a school
leader or, or as a parent?
Yeah, as a school leader.
Well, I'm, it, you know, like with
anything you've, you've gotta do kind of
a, a, a threat assessment, a behavioral
assessment, which is becoming super,
super popular, uh, in schools for that.
And behavioral assessments, um, is
a big thing, is do we re- first of
all, do we have a problem, right?
And what is that problem?
How big is the scale of that problem?
Uh, from, from bullying or
sexual abuse or, you know.
So behavioral threat assessments, and
this would be considered potential
threat, um, it to, to analyze it.
You know, we could be
anecdotal about this.
We could say, "Oh, I
think there's a problem.
We, we caught Johnny with a vape, and, you
know, his, his buddy Joey had some too."
And so we really have to do an
assessment to really first see is
there a problem, how big is the
problem before I really say, "Oh,
we've gotta solve this thing," right?
So to me it always starts
with the assessment first.
Um, and there's, there's
great tools out there.
There's great organizations out
there just, just to do that.
But, you know, talking to people,
talking to, you know, talking to other,
you know, teachers, uh, talking to
other school leaders and say, "What
are they seeing in the classroom?"
And that's your anecdotal assessment.
But we have to talk to
them and talk to students.
It's, it's always about , you
know, just, just talking to
people and, and getting insight.
And then the next step structurally
would be doing an assessment, and there
are great tools out there for doing that
assessment, helping them uncover what
the real issue is, uh, or how, how bad
the issue is, uh, within their schools.
Um, again, I do that every day
with, um, with weapons detection.
People go, "We need weapons."
Say, "Well, do you?
Is that really what you need?
Is itâ¦
Or is it more, uh, safety, uh,
officers or police officers?
Do you need more behavioral health, health
counselors to talk to these students?"
So we can't just assume here's the
fix, uh, we need more vape detectors.
It's let, let's find out and let's do an
assessment, uh, before we dig into that.
How do you know if you have a problem?
And that's interesting to me.
So if I see Johnny is the only
student, you know, out of 500, I see
that student vaping, that may not
be enough to start thinking in terms
of, in terms of systems, let's say.
So how do I knowâ¦
When, when does it cross over to
say, "Okay, this is an actual problem
that the system needs to respond to"?
You know, I, again, if I'm a, just
an individual school leader versus
a district leader, I mean, I would
talk to my staff about what are
they seeing in their classrooms.
Is, is it oneâ¦
Again, it's anecdotal, but
they know their students.
Um, the teachers themselves
know their students best.
So to me, you should be talking to
your team and say, you know, "What
are you seeing in your classrooms?
Where are you seeing the challenge?"
Now, again, they don't know necessarily.
It's, it's, um, they're making assumptions
about what's going on with their students,
but they can tell kind of who's, uh, um,
uh, energized in class and who's not, and
who's clearly out of it for some reason.
And is it, do they rarely see that?
Do they often see that?
So to me, it has to start there, is you
have to use your resources that are out
with the students and, and seeing the
problem and seeing what's out there.
And of course, these days you've got
security staff all over, so they know.
So you have to talk to your,
your staff and see what they're
seeing, and then go from there.
Um, but it does start there.
It's, it's eyes on, uh, they know
what's going on with their students.
At least, you know, are they involved?
Are they learning or are
they distracted all the time?
That's pretty easy to spot in school.
When we understand that we are close
to, quote-unquote, "having a problem"
or it does seem like something the
system, uh, needs to now react to,
what does a comprehensive prevention
strategy actually look like?
Wow.
Uh, great question.
A- a- again, so a comprehensive
would be, um, one, doing
that assessment, number one.
But knowing from leadership, again,
there- there's, you know, like really
kind of six pillars, if you will.
It depends.
A comprehensive approach to school
safety Uh, in learning, it's again, a, a
foundation of culture, number one, of, uh,
you know, behavioral and mental illness,
uh, and well- wellness I should say.
Um, that's key of having that foundation.
It means understanding their problems,
it means having health professionals on
staff, uh, that understand the problem.
Um, and again, there's re- and
y- when I grew up, we didn't ha-
you know, we had the, the, the
school nurse that was just a nurse.
That's changed.
I mean, there, there's behavioral
heal- health counselors now.
Now we had quote-unquote counselors
when I grew up, which were really
about, you know, you studying, but
not what's going on in your life.
So more and more schools and
districts are doing that and having
those resources on staff that have
all those tools to start with.
So- I'm at the other end of the
spectrum, which is detection, which
is again your kind of safety net, if
you will, to catch, um, what's going
on, to catch that vape, to detect
that vape, to detect that weapon.
We're kind of after the fact, if
you will, but those other core,
uh, things need to happen first and
have that comprehensive approach to
creating an environment for learning.
Um, a, a positive environment
for learning really starts with,
with the culture and leadership.
I often, uh, use the, uh, use the phrase
growing up in the Midwest, you know, the
s- the fish stinks from the head down.
Um, and just meaning leadership,
um, uh, either can be, you know,
throughout the schools can be poor
if the leadership at the top, at the,
you know, superintendent level, uh,
isn't strong and, and really believes
in this, um, then you're gonna fail.
But it starts at the top at the
district level of a leader understanding
this problem and realizing it's
a structural problem, and we have
to attack it from a comprehensive
approach and not just, uh, reactive.
We have to be proactive and really
put a, a comprehensive plan together,
which there, there's many different
things, um, that, that structurally,
um, sadly we have to do now in the
schools, uh, because we're not doing it
culturally, we're not doing it at home.
And, and because students spend so much
time in schools, um, and not as much
time with, with family and parents,
um, it, it's where it has to happen.
Okay.
So y- you said that you're on the
detection side of things, and, and
the feeling I'm getting is that
in an ideal world, you wouldn't
necessarily start with, with technology.
You'd start with humans.
Oh, yeah.
You'd start by learning.
You'd start by c- bringing counselors
and looking at your curriculum- Right
and trying to address it- Yeah ⦠um, you
know, with families and things like that.
So right, the districts that actually move
towards detection, are you seeing that,
that they believe that detection is the
first answer, or are they having trouble
with the human side of things, right?
Like are they- Yeah ⦠not able, they're
not able to connect, they're not able
to kind of fix the culture, so they
just move to detection, or are they
seeing it more as like a silver bullet?
Uh, good question.
I, I would say neither.
Um, well, I shouldn't say that.
Some, some are seeing it as, I
wouldn't say a silver bullet.
I think they're being reactive and just
saying, "Oh, we can use these detectors,"
instead of thinking holistically.
Um, and that's where, uh,
many leaders are failing.
They're not, umâ¦
And that could, that
could be many reasons.
So I, I don't want to necessarily
pick on any, whether it's they don't
have the budgets to really, uh,
go after this, or they just don't
realize how big a problem it is.
And just like anything in life,
any organization that, you know,
it's a range of structural issues,
um, good and bad, that, that they
don't understand the real problem.
And that's why I say, you know,
the fish stinks from the head down.
I think it's the, the leadership
doesn't understand the real problem.
Now, is it because other, uh, people
around them aren't bringing it to them?
Are they not listening?
But, um, it's j- it's just like
punishing a child, uh, for acting
out or something like that.
That's reactive.
You're not getting to the
root cause of the problem.
So, um, a- and they don't
think it's a silver bullet.
They just see it as something they
need to do, which is true, but
that's not solving the problem.
Agai- it's like putting
a Band-Aid on something.
Uh, we're not solving the underlying
root cause of that, that problem.
Or just like, you know, taking,
uh, a medication for something, you
know, um, you know, for a virus.
We have to, uh, attack the root cause, and
that's what most are not doing with this.
Uh, not because, again, a lack
of education, lack of awareness,
lack of time, a lack of resources.
There's no shortage of reasons
why, uh, they don't understand
the root cause or why they're not,
uh, going after a comprehensive
approach to solve this problem.
Um, it- it's- Yeah ⦠it's
for sure challenging.
Again, because they might think
bullying is one issue, uh, which it
is, but they're not seeing it as a, a
cultural issue and of a wellness issue.
They're just saying, "Oh, Johnny
beat up, you know, uh, Tommy,"
and, you know, "Oh, we gotta, you
know, uh, we've gotta suspend him."
And they're not seeing it as, as
a whole, and that it's a mental
health issue, as an example.
We- what's going on with these students?
Why are they fighting?
Not just, "Oh, we've gotta break it
up, and we've gotta suspend them."
It's what, what's going on around
us, what's going on at home, what's
going on, you know, in, in class.
Why are they fighting?
You've gotta get to the root cause.
Otherwise, you're c- you're constantly
reacting Have you seen sort of a
two-pronged approach work right?
So it sounds like detection could be,
and I don't know, 'cause I, I do wanna
ask you a few more questions about the
detection side 'cause I'm interested.
But do- have you seen it work where,
hey, maybe we can implement some
detection, um, methods now while we kind
of incrementally make progress on the
cultural side, the family side, right?
Because that, that side seems
like it takes longer, is harder.
Oh, for sure.
Yeah, for sure.
So yeah, so they have to do vape
detection, they have to do weapons
detection just in case, and that's
why I say it's the safety net.
You, you have to do it.
So, you know, guns is a great example
of people don't realize how many guns
are in our culture and, you know, 60% of
people, 50 to 60% of people don't lock up
their guns, and the guns are out there.
I mean, five-year-olds, seven-year-olds,
you know, 10-year-olds are bringing
guns to school, believe it or
not, and people don't hear that.
Um, you're not hearing it in Michigan
when it happens in South Carolina.
Um, but it, it's, it's going on every
day out there because the number of guns
are in our culture, so they have to.
Now we've got a gun culture issue.
We're not gonna solve that anytime soon,
so many have to do weapons detection just
to help ensure that guns, guns don't end
up on their campus, so they have to do it.
So yes, you need to do detect,
you need to do vape detection.
You have to do these things just in
case while you work on solving th- those
problems to understand how to ensure
that students don't bring them in,
whether it's a weapon or, you know, vape.
So yeah, so you have to do both, for
sure Right, but it's, it's clear that
the other side needs to be looked at,
taken care of, worked on, the cultural
side, the family side, the mental health
side, that kind of at the same time.
Because then you'll never,
you'll never solve the actual-
That's right ⦠problem.
You'll just catch, you'll just
catch students that are, that are
kind of breaking that, that rule.
Yeah.
So on the detection side- Yep ⦠of
things, what is actually available?
I, I'm, available may not
even be the right word.
I'm just curious.
You mentioned, you know, we went
from smoking in the bathroom to
vaping in the bathroom apparently-
Yeah ⦠after all these years.
So, like, the actual detection system
you mentioned that detects the, the
vaporization, um, m- m- the vapor.
I was gonna say the mist- Yeah.
⦠but I think the answer was, the,
uh, the answer was in the word.
Um, like, what else does
that really look like?
Like, how do you detect, um- Yeah.
So there's different thing- I mean,
what, today, um, historically, last
few years, if you will, um, the
vaporization detectors is, that's
really what's, what's been out there
and they've, they've relied on.
'Cause there hasn't been anything
el- other than, like, a, a hand wand.
So if they suspect somebody, uh, what
they'll often do is use just, like,
a, a handheld metal detector that
they use for weapons and things like
that, whether it's at the airport
or a, a concert venue or whatever.
We've all seen the hand
wands, and schools use them.
Unfortunately, many are, most are
using a very inexpensive, crude
tool, um, that also students have
figured out how to get around.
For example, um, students will put,
um, the vape in their crotch, and then
they'll just say, "Oh, no, that's, you're,
that's alerting, but that's my zipper."
Um, or a, a young lady might put
it in her, her bra and, 'cause
they realize there's, uh, there's
underwire, there's wire in their bras.
So they'll just, "No,
no, that's just my bra."
So students have figured
out how to get around that.
Now, our, you know, we're in the,
we're in the weapons detection
business, the vape detection
business, but ours, we're advanced.
I mean, Secret Ser- we've
been securing pr- excuse me.
We've been in business for 60 years
securing popes and presidents since.
We secure 95% of the
airports around the world.
Secret Service uses us, uh, concert
venues, NFL, Major League Baseball
stadiums, and sadly now, schools.
So we have all kinds of
detection capabilities.
Federal Bureau of Prisons use us.
Supermax prisons use us.
So our detection capabilities
are more advanced.
So even in a handheld detector,
we can distinguish between the
different metals, and we can help
them realize there's so- there's
something else in the student's crotch.
There's something else in the bra.
So number one, there are handheld devices
d- to help them find contraband, if
you will, things that they shouldn't
have, prohibited items they shouldn't
have, as long as there's metal in them.
And really, all vapes have some
metal in them, so we can find them.
So that's number one.
Number two, uh, something we just
rolled out, um, that we've used in
correctional facilities for many, many
years, um, for, uh, inmates who are
always trying to smuggle in contraband
from drugs to, believe it or not,
micro cell phones about the size of
your, uh, one digit on your thumbâ¦
Sorry, one, one segment on your thumb.
They're really the size of just a t-
almost, you know, just a little bigger
than your thumbnail, um, uh, phones that
can communicate with the outside world.
So now that has a tiny bit of metal.
It's got a little, um,
you know, magnet in it.
So we've had to be able to detect
those for, for many years to help
ensure inmates don't have contraband,
if you will, things, illegal things
they shouldn't have on their person.
Well, because we've seen this problem get
so bad in schools, uh, we said, "Well,
I wonder if we can use that for vapes?"
And we have.
So we did put it in the lab.
We tested a number of vapes From
physical, think of it like a walk-through
metal detector, but now you're
walking through something that we
can detect those tiny bits of metal.
So, uh, that's a technology that we're
rolling out this year for schools to test.
But, but one thing we're doing, we're
test- So we can detect the vapes.
The question is how would they deploy it?
Just like they're learning with the
vaporization in the, in the, uh,
bathrooms, it sounds like a good idea.
Um, and, and it worked for a little
while, but students learn how to mitigate
that, get around that, if you will.
So although we have technology that
can absolutely detect it, the question
is, how will schools deploy it?
So we're just do- doing some testing
now, and we'll be testing, uh, this fall
with schools to see how they use it.
As an example, will they use it
outside a bathroom as a random
screening and just say, "Okay,
everyone, you know, s- step through"?
And it, it's, it's just a portable unit.
And again, think of it like, um, a, a
walk-through detector now that you'd
see at a stadium or, or something else.
It's just simple.
You just walk through, and it would alert.
Um, or if they just suspect a student,
and they've got the detector in the,
in the, uh, principal's office or
something like that, or they can randomly
search a classroom from time to time.
If they know one teacher, um, in
particular, you know, class always haveâ¦
You know, she knows or he knows that they
have students that they're constantly
concerned about, they're confident
that th- these kids are always vaping,
they could just do a random screening
of a classroom from time to time and,
and pop this outside the door and have
students walk out and see if it alerts.
Um, and just like a stadium or
anything else, say, "Oh, what's in
your po- Oh, that's my cell phone.
Okay."
Which, by the way, is another issue.
A lot of states now are, uh, outlawing
cell phones in schools, so it would
detect those as well, of course.
Um, so, uh, okay, what
else are you learning on?
"Oh, I've got nothing."
Okay, well, then you'd go to a handheld.
So we can find it.
We'll, we'll, we'll absolutely, uh,
detect it, no question about it.
It's just what's realistic?
But again, that's why I
say it's a safety net.
Although we have these tools It's
after the fact they've already got it.
But it does, for some students though,
these things do work as deterrents.
If they do get caught, let's say you just,
um, uh, little Johnny just started vaping
or it was just his first time 'cause
his, his buddy Joey got him involved,
that, those deterrents do work for some.
They're not gonna work for all.
But just like anything, just
like, you know, Mothers Against
Drunk Driver or these other tools
that we have, they do deter.
So, you know, they learn about, you
know, the student that, that dropped
over and, and, you know, had a seizure
and they're now at the hospital.
For many students, that's definitely
a red flag, and that's a deterrent.
So also these random searches, uh, it's,
whether it's a canine search , whether
it's a weapons detection, a vape
detection random search, these tools work.
Think of it like having the police
car out in front of the school.
Believe it or not, you know, they
slow traffic down, they do otherâ¦
When you see a, you know, police
officer on the, you know, the
side of the road, you slow down.
So deterrents help as well.
So random screening, uh,
definitely, definitely works.
You mentioned deterrent and how it
works, and it's funny you say that
because a- as you were talking, I was
k- just kind of rolling through in
my mind what deployment looks like.
And I started thinking, well,
wait a minute, you know, whatâ¦
You know, schools are not a prison.
Schools are not an NFL game.
And so when we see things like this
visually as students, uh, and, and even,
even as, as educators, it, it starts toâ¦
I was thinking, how does it make the
school feel when you see detection
systems and things like that?
But I think you do have a valid
point there that in terms of
prevention, it may not be a humongous
device, but the idea of something
that Deters, it's a visual thing.
You know, I'm aware that the school's
taking this seriously, um, that this
is related to, you know, XYZ behaviors.
One of them may be vaping.
That can act as a deterrent.
So I think it's a, an interesting
balance to, to, to think about.
You may not want something visually there,
but just like you said, you're right.
You know, when you see a, a police
officer just parked on by the
road, you're, you're gonna, you
know, start acting right, right?
You're gonna slow down.
That's exactly right.
It, it does make sense.
Yeah, and it's aâ¦
And it's, and it's a great point.
And, and it's y- a key word you
said, there's a balance there.
So being in the detection business,
weapons detection business, metal
detection business for many years, you
know, for schools, which I'll be honest
with you, we don't like the fact that
we need to sell these into schools.
It'sâ¦
We don't need to be.
We're a big global company.
We don't need to be doing this.
And honestly, and I manage K-12
for the company, it, it's, it's sad
to see, to, to be honest with you.
And but it does work.
But the old refrain, I mean, we
worked with New York City schools,
you know, for almost 30 years.
Um, so we've been at this a while
working with schools, but the old
refrain for most is we don't want our
schools to look like prisons, right?
And we don't look, want it to
look like a TSA checkpoint, right?
Um, it's that visual, that posture
that most don't want to have.
But one thing we've learned that,
that, and that's why random searches
are nice and, and the new technology
that we have that you probably see
at stadiums and theme parks and
other things now is less obtrusive.
It doesn't look like that anymore.
You don't have to use the
X-rays necessarily anymore.
It depends what you're looking for.
So it depends what you want
to detect and at what level.
If you're a high security checkpoint,
it still kind of needs to look
like a TSA checkpoint, you know?
So it depends if you're protecting the
president or if you're just looking
for, you know, a mass casualty threat.
So it depends, but I ha- talk to school
leaders every day about this issue.
And, "Oh, are youâ¦
You know, I don't know if our
community's ready for it."
But some things, some great things
we've learned is that actually not only
is it a deterrent, but actually can
be culturally a very positive thing,
even though it acts as a deterrent.
Uh, we had one school that actually did
a, a study on this for a couple years.
Uh, sorry, one, uh, school system, Lee
County Schools in Florida They looked
at after they put in weapons detection
at the front of the school and morning
screening when they'd go in, it's portable
units that are very unobtrusive, doesn't
look like a TSA checkpoint, and school
Kids are going in very quickly,
and they can keep their
backpacks on and other things.
So they were worried about that
too, but they had a great culture,
great leadership, great culture.
What ended up happening, the study they
did, is over two years after deploying
this, because staff now has to be
out front, this is what's changed.
Staff now has to be out front welcoming
the students every day, saying hello.
"Hey, Susie.
Hey, Johnny.
Hey, Tommy.
How you doing?
Good to see you today."
So they're out front, a, a, a
good number of staff members
welcoming these students every day.
For a lot of these students,
they are not seeing adults 'cause
their parents are taking off to
work in the morning, whatever.
It's the first adults they see every day.
So having someone welcoming, checking in
on them, how you doing it, at the front
of the school every day When they come
in, is, has helped change the culture.
But not only are they, they
welcoming the students, but they'll
see if somebody's struggling.
"Hey Joey, how you doing?
Hey, hey Bobby, you okay?"
They'll see their head down,
so they can catch that.
With the study they did, the analysis
they did, it was pretty easy to do.
There's a 38% reduction of
incidents of violence, 'cause they
have to write up these incidents.
38% a reduction of violent incidents.
That's a significant drop.
Um, you know, that's
getting close to half.
And what they also found, uh, because
they, uh, had a security for that
school district of Lee County in
Florida, Dave Newlan, he was the chief
of police in, in the local community.
He also reached out to his brethren in
surrounding communities, and they've also
seen a reduction in violence as well.
So it can help change a culture if done
right, and that's why leadership matters.
It is a comprehensive approach.
And although, you know, for some schools
they think it's a bad thing and that
deterrent can be that po- that physical
posture of detectors at the front of
the school when kids walk in, in the
vestibule, that that can look bad.
It actually can help depending
on how you handle it.
If your staff is welcoming the students
every day, and you use it, it is both
a deterrent, 'cause for students the
first few days they'll see it almost
like a DUI checkpoint, and they'll
turn and, and walk the other way.
Yeah, yeah.
And throw stash what they have,
but that's a good thing too, right?
So just like you slowing down when
you see an officer at the side
of the road, that's a good thing.
But over time it can
really help many students.
Of course, there's, you know, 1 or 2
per, you know, percent that, you know,
you, you can't help no matter what,
um, that, that are gonna just have
challenges 'cause they have so many
challenges at home or whatever's going on.
But, uh, we've seen the opposite
effect of, of having that posture.
And if it's done well, it's done right,
it's done with the intent of, of safety
and concern for students as opposed to
being accusatory and like, "Oh, the, our
kids are bad and we have to do this."
It's, "No.
Let's make sure we create a
culture of health and wellness
and safety, um, and security, and
make sure all students can learn."
But a m- a big part of that is
welcoming your students every day.
And we've all seen the videos where like a
teacher will do, you know, different dance
moves with kids when they're entering
the classroom and things like that.
It's similar if you have that welcoming
environment at the front of the school
when all students are entering the
school, it can make a massive difference.
I thought of emotional deterrent, right?
With the people there, they're
adding another layer onto that-
That's right ⦠um, that's much more
personal and much more emotional.
And I'm sure some, some, some kids, you
know, maybe the first day they thought,
"I'm gonna get something through."
But then they thought, "No, you know, Mrs.
Smith wouldn't like that," right?
That, that's absolutely right.
Right, right, right.
Well- And we do talk about that.
It's, again, you, you're
throwing key words out there.
In security, we talk about it as a
layered approach, and that behavioral
connection is one of the layers.
Absolutely.
Thanks so much for
coming on the show today.
Great insights.
Thanks for joining us on Education Talk
Radio, a part of the B Podcast Network.
If there's a topic you'd like us to
tackle or have a guest idea, send me
a message at dciceroedutalk@gmail.com.
Thanks for listening, and
we'll see you next time.