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At Milestones, we firmly believe in the healing power of community. We often say that we're wounded in community, and therefore, our greatest level of healing happens in community.
Despite it being one of the most impactful aspects of their stay, most individuals are initially apprehensive about the community element of the Milestones experience. When you've experienced trauma, your sense of safety and trust within a community is often lost.
Today, Mickenzie and Christopher sit down with Milestones Alum Jennifer to explore the importance, difficulty, and power of healing in community. Jennifer shares how her expectations of community shifted, how she navigated the good, bad, and beautiful elements, and how her Milestones community has continued to impact her healing journey.
Watch Jennifer's Video Testimony
Learn more about the Milestones Experience
Watch Jennifer's Video Testimony
Learn more about the Milestones Experience
Creators and Guests
What is Living Centered Podcast?
So many of us go through life feeling out of touch with ourselves, others, and the world around us. We feel disconnected, overwhelmed, distracted, and uncertain of how to find the clarity, purpose, and direction we so deeply, so authentically, desire. The Living Centered Podcast in an invitation to another way of living.
Every episode, we sit down with mental health experts, artists, and friends for a practical and honest conversation about how to pursue a more centered life—rediscovering, reclaiming, and rooting in who we truly are.
Welcome to the Treating Trauma Podcast. Join us for this limited series of conversations with our clinicians and alum. Together, we'll explore the pillars that support the Milestone's innovative recovery that works. These conversations are an inside look into the approach, expertise, healing, hospitality, and community that make up the Milestones experience. Let's jump in.
Speaker 1:Hey, friends. Welcome to another episode of the Treating Trauma Podcast. Today, we get to sit down with another incredible milestones alum to hear about her experience. And what I love particularly about this interview is that Jennifer is so gracious in the way that she reflects in real time about her experience and then talks about the community that changed her life. As we mentioned in Bobby's episode, often the hard parts of community end up being some of the largest most impactful parts of someone's healing journey.
Speaker 1:And I love how Jennifer so vulnerably shared in her interview of how she learned to lean into community, maybe for the first time in her life, and how impactful that community has been in her journey moving forward. So I'm just really grateful for the way that she showed up. And I'm grateful for this conversation with her so that you can hear her story and the work that she's done and the work that she continues to do after leaving milestones. What did you think about this one, Christopher?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Jennifer was a lot of fun to talk to. I think when I think about, you know, the conversation, I just think of how courageous she is. And, you know, like you're saying, community can be really great in the sense of feeling supported, but it can also shed some light on some things that are difficult to look at and things that we have to wrestle with. And I feel like Jennifer leaned into that process as well. Jennifer, it's always fascinating for us and it's sometimes fascinating for our guests to think about at this point.
Speaker 2:Like what led up to your decision, huge decision to do something like milestones?
Speaker 3:I think what led up to my decision to do milestones was the realization that I had been doing talk therapy and EMDR and lots of work for years and years and years. But this was a health condition, and I was just trying to put Band Aids here and there and here and there. And what I needed, I called it, I was looking for a SWAT team
Speaker 1:to
Speaker 3:take over and to just help me. Milestones was a choice because I'd heard about it for many years, I knew about it, I heard great things about it, and then the understanding of trauma. My therapist at the time did not have trauma training, but he was very wise. And I would go in and say to him, I need to talk about something, but do you have any trauma training? And he would say no, and I was like, well, then let's not talk about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Because you're probably gonna be really upset by what I have to say. Sure. And I just wanted to go someplace where I wasn't driving the bus. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I didn't understand how well that's done at Milestones till I was there, and I really appreciate that. I appreciate the whole healing process and what was thought of about the entire healing process. Things I never would have thought of that I look back on now and I find that they're very genius and very important to healing. And you know what got me there was just a place so dark and so alone and problems that have been insurmountable juxtaposed with the fact that I have really beautiful things in my life to enjoy. And the people who love me and who want me to live a joyful life, I didn't want to shatter their existence.
Speaker 3:And I did not know how to bridge that gap. Wow. But like most people, I think I went to milestones thinking one thing and came out thinking something different. Yeah. That's kind of the beauty of it.
Speaker 3:So that's what brought me to that decision. Yeah. And once I wrapped my brain around like, took a long time. And at first I was like, oh, yeah, thirty days, which of course I stayed forty five. But once I wrapped my brain around, okay, I'm I'm going to do this.
Speaker 3:I don't know when, but I'm going to do this, because that was sort of the first step. I started to think, wait a minute. Are you telling me that I get to go to a place and not have a phone or a computer or a job and I don't have to make a decision for thirty days, and every day I wake up and I just have to work on me, I mean, get me there as fast as I possibly can. Once that became my mindset, I was like, I cannot wait to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's a very different mindset than I think a lot of people would have, or I think even just it's a very different way that we approach residential care. Right? People are like, I have to do it. Whereas I'm hearing you say like, I get to do this.
Speaker 3:I get
Speaker 1:do And seeing almost we were talking today about like an all inclusive and how you don't have to make any decisions when
Speaker 2:you go to
Speaker 1:an all inclusive and how lovely that is. And in a very different way, this feels like that. Like there are people who are just curating an environment for you to take care of yourself and it's hard work, but
Speaker 3:it's Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That that's just that's a big part of it. Just getting to put your life on pause
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To really do the work. Yeah. Because it's so hard to do that, especially that level of work when you're juggling family life and career and just everything else that goes with it.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:It's very difficult. Yeah. So it sounds like you knew, you got to this point where you said you realized you needed to do this, but then it was kind of like, it just sounds like things just kind of came together and things got clear. It was just like time to do something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I went from, you know, there's all sorts of, I think this happens to most people, there was, you know, this was a financial commitment, there was all sorts of guilt. How could I take this time for myself? How could I devote these kind of resources to this? Who's gonna take over for me to and I think it was my therapist who said to me, if you were to do this work now, take this time, spend the money now, and you knew that for the next thirty years it will have changed your life, will you be happy? And I was like, well, of course.
Speaker 3:And then I looked at other things that I would easily spend that money on, none of which would bring me peace of mind.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:And that made the decision much easier. And that made me go, okay, I deserve this, and frankly, like, I can't get better on my own, and my husband is suffering, my family is suffering, and this isn't fair, and they don't know what to do. Of course they don't. So by the time I got there, and you know, I was working and closing up things right up until the moment I got there, in the car there, I'm texting and emailing and setting up things and doing all the things. I'm sure everybody does that.
Speaker 2:But
Speaker 3:I was so ready to be like, I'm just completely, just take over, take me. I didn't do a lot of research, some people do, like I didn't really look at what the living situation would really be like, or what the programming might be like, or whatever. I was like, I'm just going show up, you just tell me what to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Did you know people that have done it that made you feel comfortable in that way?
Speaker 3:Nope. I didn't know anybody had done it. I knew people had done a workshop. I didn't know anyone who had done the residential. So that was a whole new ball of wax.
Speaker 2:What were your first couple of days like? Like just that shift of cause I feel like some people that are professionals and busy and just there's like almost like a detox experience. Their nervous system has to reset a bit. Definitely. Can you remember what that was like for you?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, when the gates opened and we drove on the campus, I started to cry pretty hysterically. And I don't suffer with panic and anxiety, but I definitely felt it at that moment. And my husband was kind of like, I don't really understand.
Speaker 3:I don't think he understood what this was gonna be like for him either. And I knew that once I arrived, I mean, it truly is a healthcare facility. So you are being taken in. And I knew that I would arrive, turn over my phone, and then I would just be led. But I felt like a baby goat.
Speaker 3:I felt like I got out of the car and I didn't know where to go or what to do. And I was a blur of saying goodbye to my husband. And I turned around, the suitcases were already gone. And there was one of my favorite people, Amy, greeting me and saying, come on back. And of course I'm crying hysterically.
Speaker 3:And you go back and you do intake. The first day or two, you really are doing a lot of intake. A lot of people need to find out kind of baseline where you're at, health, physical, emotional, psychological, where you're at. So there was a lot of that. And you haven't even interacted with another client.
Speaker 3:So the setup is really cool because we got to go to a cabin where you do your intake and then there's the main house, etcetera. So by the time I arrived in the morning, and by the time I was sort of done with the initial, I was shown my room, and I just walked in, I was like, okay, didn't see a roommate or anything, had no real, just really was just kind of like, I'm just really not gonna have any emotions about this. I'm gonna sleep where I'm gonna sleep, it's gonna be And then walked down the hallway, and when you're in the house at that time, everybody else knows the drill. Everybody else has a schedule, everybody's headed to something, going somewhere, they're in one mood or another, they're happy, they're sad, they're in conversation, and they're friendly and they wanna meet you, but you're also kind of like, I'm the only one You're the new kid. Who doesn't know anything.
Speaker 3:And I remember the first person I walked up to, and she turned around and introduced herself, and she's like, how are you? And I was like, I don't know. And I just was crying. And she said, it's okay. I cried all day yesterday.
Speaker 3:And she'd just gotten there. And that just gave me such comfort. And she said, do you wanna walk to lunch together? And that and that kind of was it. The second day, you know, still working out medications and sleeping, I struggle with sleep, think most people do, and if you're gonna share a room or you're in a strange environment.
Speaker 3:And I just tried to just follow along and do and be, but I had to physically adjust. So that second day I went to my room and took a three hour nap. And after that, things seemed to flow. And there was something great about, you know, when I went to sleep, I would just look at my schedule for the next day and say, okay, I need to be here at 08:30, or I need to be here at nine. And that's the only thing I needed to do.
Speaker 3:And I didn't even look at the next thing on my schedule. I would just show up for the first thing, and then look at the second thing and the third thing, and not really think about it very much.
Speaker 2:That's nice.
Speaker 3:Those first couple days, I do remember also my first lunch, sitting across from someone and meeting everybody. They're all very nice. And she said to me, so yeah, why are you here? Why are And she's eating with her mouth open, and I'm looking at her, and she's like, yep, that's what we do here. Just tell us.
Speaker 3:Just was like, yikes. And I became that person later on. And you realize the sooner you can just start saying all the words out loud, speaking the things out loud, the sooner you can start dealing with it. And there's no point in going into it gently. I mean, doesn't work for everybody, but that certainly did break the mold.
Speaker 3:Then everybody else shared very authentically and raw as to why they were there.
Speaker 1:And what was your experience with that type of therapy? Like, had you done group work before? I know you mentioned you'd been in therapy, but did you have any experience around any of those modalities that we use?
Speaker 3:I had not done group work before. I I had done EMDR, individuals. I mean, when I was going through my divorce with my first husband, I was ordered by the court to get domestic violence counseling as a victim. That was the first time I sat in a room with a group of people. Okay.
Speaker 3:But that was a long, long time ago, and I don't remember sharing anything. It's more like education. So that was new. Certainly psychodrama, role playing, all of that was new to me. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I didn't understand it. I didn't know what it was gonna be like. And then by the time I left, you can really understand the pattern. You can understand like, oh, this person has trauma around something and now the therapist is gonna lead them through something that will look a lot like A, B, and C, and in the end, they will come out over here with a different response somewhere. You know, whether that's one step ahead, maybe even one step back, because you have to go look back at it.
Speaker 3:But it was amazing to me that there was actually like a cycle to it, that you can do it over and over and over again and it works. I couldn't tell you what that is now because I've been out for a couple months. But I just felt like, you know, I could watch it and recognize it and see But no, I had not done any of that. Trauma timelines, yeah, really no And it really is all group except for your twice a week individuals.
Speaker 2:For sure. Reflecting back, Jennifer, what are some of the big moments? I love to ask that in the sense of where you just had some sort of clarity or emotional healing or corrective experience. And again, no need to get into any details that, but just often people can like reflect on the specific group or the specific thing where it was just like, maybe the the lights went on in some way or in, you know, some way or
Speaker 3:Yeah. There were a lot.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:You know, I went into milestones thinking I needed to forgive myself.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:And then about two weeks in, I went, oh no, this is what I need to do. And then at about the two and a half week mark, it was recommended that I stay for two more weeks past my thirty days, which I didn't wanna do. And I decided to go ahead and do that. And so it was day 33 is when I really realized what I needed to do. And it was to take accountability for my own role.
Speaker 3:That yes, I have trauma, I have generational trauma, I have lifelong trauma, but because of that, I also have inflicted trauma on others. And so it was taking accountability for that from a place of gentleness. Good. And I can say this now, but at the time, the shame spiral was pretty crazy. So it was realizing that I had done to people what had been done to me in some ways, in different ways, you know, with the tools that I had at the time.
Speaker 3:And the level of shame I had around that was just overwhelming, just absolutely overwhelming. And my primary therapist was like, well you can stay here and do this work, or you can leave after forty five days and get into some intensive programs. And the truth is that if you stay, you get there a whole lot faster. I'm getting there. It's been three months now, but it has been a very much slower process.
Speaker 3:But I would love to tell you a little story that I have about I won't call it a religious experience because I'm not religious.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So my relationship with God has been a struggle always. And, you know, it's just been an ongoing, you know, like, where am I at with this higher power? And it was a particularly bad day. I happened to be not very outdoorsy, so I don't go for a walk in the woods by myself. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And I decided to go for a walk in the woods by myself. I asked like five people and they none of them wanted to go. So I went and one of the great things is there's this serenity walk. So all along this two mile path are these signs that say believe or persist or little words along the way. But honestly, I had never really noticed them before.
Speaker 3:And we had, as a group, would go on this hike after dinner and we would come to this area that had a little hole in the ground and we'd pick up a rock and throw something in that we were letting go of for that day. So as I came upon that area, I picked up a stick and I threw it into the hole and I said, I'm gonna let go. My my issue is around, my adult children. And I said, I'm gonna let go and I need you to take over with this. And it was, you know, definitely brought me to my knees.
Speaker 3:I'm like, but I, you know, I I really could use a sign if I could just get a sign. And I have a sister who's a minister, and she had told me a story about how she had been in the woods and had asked God for a sign, and then this this deer came out in her path and, like, stared at her in the face and then went on its way. And so I was like, if I could just get a sign. You just did anything. Like a deer would be really great.
Speaker 2:That would be very cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I heard this bird up above me that made this crazy noise that I've never heard a bird before make. And, I was like, oh, oh, well, maybe that's it. But I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's birds, not really a deer, but okay. Alright.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna take it. It's not really a deer. It's really a yeah. It wasn't the burning bush that I was hoping for. So I keep walking.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. And as I I come upon, I get to a fork in the path and I don't know which way to go, and I'm already have nervousness about getting lost. And I'm looking one way and I turn the other way, and there's a sign nailed to the tree that says hope. And, hope was something that I had talked about that I had had lost, had given up for a long time. And so, of course, I'm crying and I'm like, alright, that's that's definitely the sign.
Speaker 3:It's hope. I get it. It's in your hands. And then and then as I start to walk again, I think, but you know, that sign has been up there for a while. So
Speaker 2:Where's the deer?
Speaker 3:Where's the deer? So I keep walking along, and I end up at the horse pasture, which I have always had, you know, a fear of horses, which I worked on while I was at Milestones, but this was before then.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 3:I walked up and I thought, alright, this will be it. And the horses kind of came close, but not too close. And I thought, alright, well, that's okay, but I kinda like need an animal to hug me or some giant sign. So I turned the corner again, and then there are, where the pot bellied pigs are and the little goats. And I go over to this little black and white goat and I put my hand through the fence and I'm petting.
Speaker 3:He's letting me pet him, but he's not coming really close. I'm like, alright. Well, maybe he'll look me in the eye or maybe there'll be something. And I'm just asking for this ridiculous sign of faith, and I'm just about to give up when this little red and white goat comes over, knocks that goat out of the way, sticks his head through the fence, and wraps his head around my neck. It's
Speaker 1:like, alright.
Speaker 3:Okay. I give up. That's really that's really
Speaker 2:That's sweet.
Speaker 3:It's, I had to call my sister that night and tell her I didn't get the deer, but You gotta go. I got, like, I got a lot. Yeah. You know, I think I think God was like, are you kidding me? How much more do you want?
Speaker 1:Here you go. Here you go.
Speaker 3:Moments like that where I think, you know, it's it's undeniable that there's just so much that's out of my control, and yet we all want to believe we have some hand in controlling it.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Mhmm. About that.
Speaker 1:What I've continually heard you say in several different moments, you've used the word and really strategically. This and this and this and
Speaker 3:this. And
Speaker 1:I wondered if you could kind of speak to what that looked like for you. You talked about, like, I needed to forgive myself. I needed to acknowledge and let all that had happened to me matter and take accountability for the way that I had I mean, hurt other people out of your trauma, right? Like we say a lot, like hurt people hurt people.
Speaker 3:But Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I just wonder what that process looked like for you as you continued to unravel that, and maybe what are some of the repair that you've been able to kind of do?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think my relationship with the word and, it changes anybody who does work like this, I think it does, because we end up doing the buts. Yeah. And it's the reality that you can hold two truths at the same time. So recently my therapist, who was someone who did workshops at Milestone, so she is very trained, did two things for me. Number one, she said, I think you need to accept that you're grieving and that this is a loss, and that this is a loss that has happened a long time ago and you've never grieved it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And how it's different is that I'm not surrounded by people who are experiencing this loss with me. And the truth is I've learned about folks who have lost children to death say that no matter who you're surrounded by, grief is an individual path.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So accepting that this was grief and that I was gonna have to live in grief for as long as it took, and I have a lot of experience with grief, and at the same time, she was the first person who said, You need to let go of hope that they will change. Acceptance. Because living in hope that someone else will change is a impossible place to live. There's no way you can There's nothing to be done about that. So those two things were happening at the same time, But the relationship with the word and was, I'm grieving, I'm deep in grieving, right now, I'm deep in grieving.
Speaker 3:And my goal now is, as I go through the days and the feelings come as opposed to getting busy or changing this topic or doing something else, I sit in the grief for as long as it takes. And I get to go watch a hilarious movie with my awesome husband who I waited a lifetime to meet.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And not feel guilty about any of those things. But I found that, although I just used that word, I found that it's possible to live my life without the word but. Letting yourself exist in those two things and understanding my relationship with shame and where that comes from, and that it serves no purpose. You can have guilt. Shame is different.
Speaker 3:It's a different animal altogether. And horrible, horrible existence to live in shame. Did that answer your question?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Okay. I just love that idea of holding two things, that two things can be true at one time. I think we think in such black and white elements of that. And so I just thought it was really beautiful hearing you talk about your experience and two things were true.
Speaker 1:And I think that speaks to life in general. Two things are often true.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I definitely think I was thinking a lot more linear before. Like, I need to solve this problem and then I can be happy. And it's the same thing with, you know, other things you may manifest in. Once I have this job, then I'll be happy.
Speaker 3:Once I get married, then I'll be happy. And it can be, I'm lonely, I'm not in a relationship, and I really love my job at the same time, and I have great friends. Just that the two can exist, you know, but we live in a world where at least outwardly people show up as if everything is amazing, and that is just a lie. It's a lie.
Speaker 2:Probably a little bit lying to self and lying to others, right? Yeah. Know? Because it requires, it's a lot to look at that stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Scary.
Speaker 2:Jennifer, often people think about when, you know, Miles says you have the clinical programming, but then you have the community. And I was wondering like for you, not that you have to like, it's not one or the other, but it's like, how to either or, whatever you're led to talk about, support your healing process. Because it's like, I've had a lot of people say that the clinical is great, but the people, like my peers, so impactful.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I did not understand the meaning of community and the difference between community and friendships and family before I went to milestones. And I had no understanding as to what it would be like in your healing process.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 3:I never lived in a college dorm. I never had a roommate. I never had to share a bathroom. And so, well, that's not true. But I mean, you know, I was an urban person my whole life, so never lived in a sorority, that sort of thing.
Speaker 3:So to live in a house with 18 to twenty, twenty four people at a time can seem overwhelming for some people, like really awful, but it was really wonderful. Now my roommate was 23 years old. I'm old enough to be her mother plus some, and she was the best roommate in the whole wide world, and she's a friend to this day. I think one of the most interesting things for me was there were people there who were 19 to 70.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 3:tend to be this person anyway, but I really just was open to I can learn something from everyone. I learned so much from the 19 and 20 year olds about what their lives are like today Mhmm. On college campuses, out there in the world. So I learned a tremendous amount. And I think I learned a lot about my children and what they're going through and what their lives have been like.
Speaker 3:Totally different. You you know, live your life through the lens of the parent versus befriending somebody who is the age of your child. So in going there, was like, is everybody gonna be 24? And again, that may have been the case. Sure.
Speaker 3:But again, I just kinda went saying, I'm not gonna I am just gonna show up. And if I'm the grandmother, then so be it. The community was tremendously important. The harmony in the community was important. Not forming cliques was important.
Speaker 3:And we were very fortunate. I think we were very close. We, as a community, experienced some really heavy things while I was there, and I was grateful that we were there and had staff around us to help us
Speaker 2:all.
Speaker 3:And it was a great opportunity for learning. So you talked about opportunities for learning and moments. So as I was rounding to the end of my time, you know, comes a time when you're like, you're the only one left that is an old face in the place.
Speaker 2:That's
Speaker 3:right. Everybody else is new. And one of my issues, lifelong issue, has been around anger. I was raised in a house of anger, and so that has been my primary emotion.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 3:realizing that and what that does and the destruction it can So I like to say, pride myself, that I've worked on that a lot, and I sure have, but when met with a situation where someone else came in who honestly was just a big old mirror for me to look at, who I may have worked to a different level, but this person lived in a level that I lived in for sure. And when it came head to head between us, it triggered in me the old anger. And the lesson, it took me a couple days to get it. I had to work with my individual therapist, etcetera, and they were just waiting for me to get it, as usual. I realized I just, given the opportunity to engage in anger, I just went full in and started pushing buttons, which is still a problem and not something I needed to do.
Speaker 3:And this person and I who had been at odds were able to really come together and sort of kumbaya around anger. And when I was leaving, we have our little ceremony. I bequeathed him the anger torch. But it really, it struck me hard that while I had worked on anger to a certain level, and I'm like, oh, I've solved that problem. I had just done like one step in the process.
Speaker 3:And it still lives in me. You can't be raised in something and have it ingrained in you your entire life and just kind of wipe it away in thirty to forty five days. So that was a huge moment for me. And something I learned from the community And another, like, there are struggles in the community and there are struggles outside. So it's a great opportunity to just stay focused.
Speaker 3:And I think the most important thing is I never felt like anybody formed a clique.
Speaker 2:That's so good.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's awesome. And we really worked to care about each other, and that's why we stay in touch with each other afterwards and meet weekly. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You mentioned something you learned the distinction between community, family, and what? Friends. Friends. Will you speak a little bit to that?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think the difference is, at least this was my experience. So my family is my family, there's a blood connection, there's history, etcetera. And like most folks, there's a lot of things I probably wouldn't share with them. There are friends who love me and and share with me and understand my journey.
Speaker 3:Certainly close friends who have watched my entire life and understand me inside and out from the time I was a child. And those are great resources. And there's a community who speaks the language of healing, and that's the difference. And hearing the language I now learned mirrored back to me is so important. Understanding like, let's check-in at how you are.
Speaker 3:Most of us, it would be like, oh, I'm fine. Right? That's how we all start. And instead it's like, well, I'm feeling overwhelmed by the unknown and it's all sitting in my chest today.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 3:now I know, even just saying that makes me take a deep breath, because now I know that just identifying that helps me work it out of my body and truly understanding that my body keeps the score whether I like it or not. So me walking through life going, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, my body's like, not really. And we're gonna we're gonna prove that to you because we've been holding this for many decades.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was just gonna say, I really appreciate you kind of talking through the the family, friends, and community piece. It's kind of interesting because, like friends and family, they've been with you for a long time and, but sometimes those relationships are complicated and we either consciously or subconsciously kind of have up walls and barriers. But then when you have a community where your true connection to them is like, you all have one thing in common that you're trying to heal or to grow or to move forward. And the relationships, there's not that history and stuff.
Speaker 2:It creates a different experience where I think sometimes you can be more vulnerable and more honest and be supportive of one another. And it's like, it's so powerful. Yeah. Because I've heard people say they come to milestones and they're like, I feel more comfortable telling people I've known for a week things that I would not feel comfortable telling my family or my friends. Because it's they get it.
Speaker 2:They're in it with Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's not only that. I think actually one of the biggest things is to be able to say to anybody in the community, and all of us have experienced this since we've, you know, left milestones, is, you know, maybe you're texting and calling someone all the time trying to connect, they're like, I'm just not there. And going, okay, you don't take it personally. It has nothing to do with you asking, are you okay if I give you a hug? Physical touch, not giving advice, not chiming in, not placating, not minimizing.
Speaker 3:And you don't really I guess this is why I would ask my therapist, do you have trauma training? Because the last thing you wanna do is to start share this and have someone be like, oh my god. They can't handle it. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 3:And maybe my trauma is worse, you know, or whatever, you can't compare it. But you hear things that are shocking
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And there's a gift in not being shocked. Mhmm. And saying, of course you did that. Of course you did that to survive.
Speaker 2:Of
Speaker 3:course. Of course you feel this way. Of course you do. And the lack of judgment and very hard to get with family and friends even though they may love you dearly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Well said.
Speaker 1:I've heard you talk a lot about knowing when you left milestones, your circles needed to change. Mhmm. And I wonder what that has looked like practically. Going from this really safe community, I've got places and people who understand it, who get it. Because I think that's a common struggle that we hear of people having to figure out how to go back into the real world out of the safety that has been curated here
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:By this environment. So I just wondered what that has looked like for you.
Speaker 3:That's an ongoing, even even today. But I consider that to be part of rebuilding. Like, it's like the house is burnt down and I'm rebuilding it. Terrence said to me, at one point I had planned to discharge and I had this big construction project that I was working on. So I was like, well, I'm gonna get out on Friday, and on Saturday, I'm going back to work on this project.
Speaker 3:And he was like, oh, that's not how it works. And I didn't understand it, but purposefully did by the time I left, understood that no matter what I was going back into, I kinda needed to start at zero. So my circle at that point was my husband, and that was it. So it was, we're gonna go home, and I really don't wanna see anybody. I don't really wanna talk.
Speaker 3:I forgot I owned a phone, you know, and I did not miss it, PS, at all. I forgot I owned a phone or that I hadn't watched television or watched the news and any of that stuff. And he really did a great job of, I mean, I'm an equal partner in our relationship, so I carry half the load. He carried all of the load, and he didn't give it back to me until I was ready, which was a couple months later. But the circle has to remain small because you have to figure out who you can trust with your true feelings.
Speaker 3:Like you've done this work, you're kind of cracked open like an egg, and you're going back out into society. What I was struck by was how everything was overwhelming. Like, on the street was over you've been in sanctuary of peace. And yeah, we had music and things like that, but I mean, mostly you're listening to birds. And first of all, I didn't know that birds actually talk to each other till I went to Milestones.
Speaker 3:I was like, they're having a conversation. I just appreciated the quiet, and I live in the city. It was a lot of sensory.
Speaker 1:Your nervous system is probably on high alert.
Speaker 3:Yes. I wore I understood now why people wear hats a lot who struggle. I wore a hat for, like, over my ears, low on my head, just because it was just a little too much. I often wore sunglasses inside at milestones, just there was a lot of sensory that I had never experienced before. But to this day, I am still, like it's a very cautious step.
Speaker 3:You know, if I'm going to dinner, went to a family dinner the other night, and it was mostly okay and then it wasn't. And I had to draw a hard boundary and leave. And I feel great about that decision.
Speaker 2:Good for you.
Speaker 3:And, you know, I have plans with friends, friends who I was seeing several times a week before I went in, who I now have not seen since April. And now we're in August. So I'm gonna see them, but it's a very curated group. Not because anybody's gonna hurt me or say anything wrong, it's not that, it's that my energy level is different. And I'm still rebuilding and I really need to figure out, you know, for some people it's, am I a people pleaser?
Speaker 3:Am I a, you know, whatever? I'm the cruise director. I'm the one organizing everything and doing everything and kind of shutting that off. And certainly, I've been very fortunate because I'm still, you know, doing a lot of work that I'm still on disability. And that has been tremendously helpful because I have a very high pressure job.
Speaker 3:And I don't think it would be conducive to my healing at all. So that also has been a very, very hard decision. But again, I keep thinking about the next thirty years of my life and this investment. Like if it's a year of this healing, like this deep, deep work, and I get thirty years, and hopefully my grandchildren and great grandchildren, then it's worth it. Agreed.
Speaker 3:It's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Jennifer, I'm thinking about the fact that I know you and your husband also had an opportunity to experience the family program. I remember when the two of you came for that, and I don't know if we've really gotten
Speaker 1:We didn't talk too much about the family.
Speaker 2:Talk too much about that. So it just kind of popped in my mind. And I mean, if it makes sense for you and you're okay with it, mean, what was that experience like for the two of you? Because for our listeners, it's like, imagine spending, you know, forty five days in milestones, but then you get to bring in someone that's a big part of your life into a couple day experience with you. And I don't know, was just kind of wondering if that made sense to talk about.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I didn't know before I went to Milestones that there was a family weekend. It wasn't until I was at my very first individual with Terrence and he talked about family weekend. I said, what's that? And he said, well, after you're done, you can come back for up to a year and go to this.
Speaker 3:It's a four days. I mean, it's it's it's two solid long days and two half days. Yep. So we'll call it three days. Here, bring anybody you like.
Speaker 3:There are people who brought six family members. I brought one.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And you do four days, three days of intensive therapy here on campus. And it is part of what you've paid for. And then, so that was good enough. And then I found out, and you can do this as many times as you'd like in those twelve months. So if you'd like to come with your mother and then come back with your father, come back with an adult child, you know, I mean you as the client have to do it over and over and over again.
Speaker 3:So I knew I had that available to me. And my first instinct was to bring in people who really weren't yeah. If I was giving advice, would say just be really conscious of who you choose. Yeah. Don't bring in folks that are like, I'll this was the feedback I got.
Speaker 3:Some folks are really bristle over the thought of family weekend. They're like, oh, you gonna spend the weekend you telling me what I've done wrong as your family member? Or is it a weekend of us telling you or whatever? And that's not what it is. It's six families and you process trauma just as a group.
Speaker 3:And therefore everyone benefits. And it's not focused on me and what I've done, it's really giving them a taste of their own trauma work and what might be done.
Speaker 1:Sounds a lot like not blaming, but like you're just kind of together processing and naming.
Speaker 3:Yes. So at first, I reached out to my sisters, and one of them said, of course, I'll join you on your journey. And I was like, oh, that's not really it. And the other one said, I'll think about And that's okay. Those are both really great responses.
Speaker 3:But what it made me think is, you know, you want to bring folks who are curious about themselves and maybe about you. So what I did, I left Milestones on a Wednesday and I came right back on Friday for family weekend. And I'm really glad I did it that way. I'm glad I came as close to my discharge as possible because I still had fresh, and and there were still friends on campus that I got to see Mhmm. Selfishly.
Speaker 3:That's a
Speaker 1:quick turnaround. What is what's normal?
Speaker 2:You
Speaker 1:know I guess not normal, but like, what do other people do?
Speaker 2:I would say that most people come in the first three months. Okay. So it kinda you wanna keep the momentum going. Mhmm. Know?
Speaker 2:So what you did is like perfect. Especially it also depends on the person you bring in that relationship.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So you and your husband were ready.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And he was, you know, the experience for the family on the outside is another whole topic of conversation, but he was curious, he was wanting to know, he was ready, he was nervous I think that he wouldn't know how to understand me. He had been busy reading books, he was listening to this podcast a lot, it was very helpful. And there were people who had waited a year to come back and they really You could see the difference. Like it takes a while to get back in the groove. So you know, you're two days into your three days and you're just getting the hang of it.
Speaker 3:So six families, in our case it was 18 people, and it was phenomenal. It was really phenomenal to watch my husband experience it. And this is what you realize when you see the trauma work happening with other people. You don't have to be doing the work yourself, you don't have to be working on your own story to benefit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Definitely.
Speaker 3:And he was I mean, I don't think he would mind me saying this. He was really brought to his knees. Mhmm. And he did some of his own work, which I think surprised him. It always surprises you always surprise yourself.
Speaker 3:Yep. The biggest thing was at the end of Saturday, which is usually like a twelve hour day. He just was like, I can't, but I'm exhausted. I can't believe this. I can't believe we've done this and we're coming back tomorrow.
Speaker 3:And I said, and this was my life seventy five days a week. And even on the weekends, it's not really a break. We still do work. And so, you know, that's why at the end of the day, you don't have a lot of time to you have time to call and say hello, I love you, I hope everything's good, goodbye.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:But that's hard. I think if there was a magical way for the family to know what it would be like before, that would help. But I don't think there is any way to do that. So I'm very grateful. I think you would go back again.
Speaker 3:I'm grateful that I may have the opportunity to go back with other family members before my year is up.
Speaker 2:Sure. That's wonderful.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's really such a gift in that there's so much safety in that relationship because I would make up that if you're coming into a program like Milestones, there's probably a lot of relational breaks. And then it could be a really repaired or redemptive experience, but it could also be a not safe experience. And so I I wonder how many people are cautious about doing this type of work with their family or how many people who have family members that I'd love for them to be curious and come in, but they're not comfortable doing that or not willing to do that work. And so I just think it's so beautiful that there was so much safety in your marriage for him to come in and be like, I'm going to lean all the way in with you in this.
Speaker 3:Yeah. He was the only one. Like, there really wasn't, and again, that's not a no harm, no foul, but it was like, he is the person, and that's where I'm starting. And I am very fortunate. And I definitely witnessed that.
Speaker 3:I've also witnessed folks whose family members came and what happened to them was they realized, I have all this deep work that I need to do. And maybe they rolled into a workshop or maybe even chose to go to residential. But it's the folks that come in that are like, I'm here for my wife, my daughter, my whatever, that's it, that's all. And they're the ones that are most surprised about what comes up. Because everybody has trauma on some level.
Speaker 3:Sure. But you can really benefit, and you understand when you're witnessing something authentic versus, you
Speaker 2:know, something not authentic. So You're to me like even just the power of group. It's like, if I'm in a room full of people and I watch people get vulnerable and just be honest with themselves and others, I'm gonna feel way safer to do the same.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We had I was talking about this the other night, but we have our community does a group call on Sundays. We get together and we call, and sometimes there's six people, sometimes there's 15, sometimes there's two. And sometimes it's an hour, sometimes it's three hours. It's whatever you need, come, take what you like, leave the rest.
Speaker 3:And the other night we had a conversation that just ended up on radical honesty and about, lying and lying and the role that it plays in your life. And it was just interesting. Once one person cracked that egg open, the rest of us all had a confession, a story of something. And it was so freeing to have a conversation and be really completely honest and know that that can be true and all of your trauma is true at the same time. But I can't think of another environment where I can have conversation and not have judgment or second guessing after, but it truly is, it's the only place where I can do that.
Speaker 3:And I think others feel that way too.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite things about these conversations is that it's a really normalizing way to talk about this experience. And I think there's a lot of barriers to overcome in coming in to do this work. I think there's a belief and a hope that you have to kind of muster up to come. I think there is. What I've heard a lot of people share is even that you shared, like, is it do I have the self worth to to do this?
Speaker 1:Am I worth the investment in this? And so what would maybe be your encouragement as we kinda round out this time together for someone who's kind of in that place saying, I don't know if I could never, to help normalize that experience or maybe help someone feel like they're worth that. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Only wish that I had is that I had done it sooner. So if only I had done this thirty years ago, twenty years ago, ten years ago, five years ago, two years ago, everything in my life would be different. And I waited until the house was burnt down, really. I waited thinking that I could fix it, I could manage it, and the house burnt to the ground. And that's not what everybody goes in for.
Speaker 3:Opening your mind to this kind of healing earlier is just gonna serve you for the rest of your life. Like, I'll never speak the same, I'll never look at things the same. It's a level of compassion. You know, consider myself a compassionate person, but it's a level of compassion I didn't think of before. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's given me the ability to clearly think hard about who I spend time with, how I spend my time, my choices in life. And I just keep going back to what my therapist said, like, if you know this is going to change the rest of your life, are you willing to do it? I'll give you a good example. I know a woman and she is really, really struggling. She's somebody who's in a group of mine and she is in a very deep struggle that I identify with.
Speaker 3:And I said, you know, milestones really changed my life. And she said, oh, but would I have to have a roommate? I said, well, not really, don't have to. Well, I don't know about this and about that. All these were like tactical things.
Speaker 3:And I said, I guess you're just not in enough pain. I mean, don't know what to say, but if I could, I wished I hadn't waited until I was crawling through the door. I'm worth it, I would totally have done it for someone else, And I will do it for someone else. So I think that's really it, is don't wait to, you know, again, when I'm married, I'll be happy. When I have this job, I'll be happy.
Speaker 3:When I'm this, I'll be happy. Choose it now. Take the time now. You'll never regret it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great feedback. And I think some people know that instinctually, but it's scary to take the leap or to make the commitment because, you know, sometimes life teaches us like being vulnerable equals pain. And what's wild about what we're talking about is vulnerability is necessary for healing too. And obviously we try and do it in a way that people feel safe. But it's a that's a big that's a big transition.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Should go from one side to the other.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thank you so much, Jen.
Speaker 3:This was really fun. Thank you, guys.