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The only podcast covering all things Arizona State athletics! We bleed maroon and gold, and love talking about the Sun Devils no matter what sport.
David Howman (00:30)
Welcome one, welcome all to another episode of the Echo from the Buttes podcast. I am your host David Hellman back after a ⁓ brief period of absence from the show. you know, on one hand, I'm happy to be back alongside my co-hosts, Andrew Hazlett, Austin Bundy and Tom Harden. But on the other hand, you know, I picked a horrible time to come back because we're here on the show today breaking down that game that happened Saturday night where the Sun Devils
went into SEC country they could not pull out a win they couldn't even look good doing it either. know, granted they did come back in the fourth quarter and only to give it up on a huge, huge blown coverage play. ⁓ So this episode is just, you know, breaking all that down. It's gonna be a support group for all of us battered Sun Devil fans. you know, we got lots to talk about, lots to break down from this game.
Tom, I'll start with you. Is it time to hit the panic button on this season two games in?
Tom Hardon (01:35)
No, two games does not a season make. I'm like logging in, like checking social media today, I felt like Ron Swanson throwing my computer into the dumpster, just seeing all the panic from all over Sun Devil Nation. It's like, guys, we went on the road. SEC territory is not easy to go into. We knew that this was a strong possibility and...
David Howman (01:37)
Thank you.
Tom Hardon (02:05)
It's best thing to do is learn from this, turn the page and beef up the areas that were glaringly apparent for improvement.
David Howman (02:20)
A of areas that needed some improvement though. Austin, was the biggest concern for you out of this game? Offense was shaky, defense had some moments there. What was the number one thing you came out of and just said, this is awful, we need to fix this?
Austen Bundy (02:40)
I think, I mean, a couple things. I the first thing is not enough Shaman Mater. I mean, the, the, the, passing game was lacking creativity. I know they wanted to establish the run game and they got it established late in the second half there, which was, it was nice to see. It was good to see that they were able to figure something out and Kenny was going back to his old game plan of bleeding clock and,
really demoralizing a team with the run game, which was his bread and butter last year. But the fact that Sam was relying so much on Jordan Tyson and even at that point, Sam's decision making was appalling. Like I just wanted to kind of scream my TV is like, who are you and what have you done with Sam Levitt? Like this is not the guy that we had under center last year. ⁓
I don't know if the SEC environment got to him, but these are shades of what we saw him do against NAU with some poor decision making. ⁓ It's a bit disquieting to see that his, I wouldn't call it a sophomore slump just yet, but to see some of those sophomore nerves come out a little bit. ⁓
Like you said, Tom, two games is not a season make, but I am almost willing to say it's safe to say that Sam Levitt will be back for his junior year. I do not see him going to the NFL draft after two performances like that. ⁓ That's if he doesn't transfer. I don't anticipate him to, but I think he'll be back. But yeah, not enough Shaman Mateer. They didn't get creative with the passing game. I like that the running game got established late, but it just seemed like once one year
was falling off the machine the whole thing just started to fall apart until Kenny at halftime did something to duct tape it together for as long as he could and just one one bad decision on the play calling on defense in the fourth quarter there I mean has has the defensive coordinator not learned to not play a cover to late in the fourth quarter like did we not watch the Texas game like in the Peach Bowl like that's exactly how we lost that game ⁓
We'll talk about that later and what I saw in that play, but there's so much. There's just so much.
Tom Hardon (04:48)
Here's how much shaman's hair we had in the game. Zero. Zero shaman's hair.
Austen Bundy (04:52)
For those of you
on Spotify, he's holding up a big fat zero with his hand.
David Howman (04:57)
Yeah, well he wasn't even targeted, was he? Or did he get one at the end of the game? Yeah, no targets.
Tom Hardon (04:58)
I mean, we-
Nope, zero targets.
Austen Bundy (05:03)
Thanks. ⁓
Tom Hardon (05:05)
I mean, here's how anemic the passing game was. We only had 10 total receptions. Six of them went to Tyson. I mean, it was great to see the running game pick up after last week. I loved seeing Yudo step in when Tyson went down.
It kind of sucked that in his homecoming game he goes down in the first quarter, but Rolik and Kanye both more than made up for it. Nice to see Kanye get his first touchdown. was like last week against NAU. There were flashes of brilliance, but not enough and not sustained. You can't rely on a handful of good drives to...
when you football games. That fourth quarter drive that milked off nine minutes from the clock, I love that. I would have loved to see us go for it on fourth and one, our fourth and goal from the one. I'm sure we'll touch on that later as well. that was to me a classic Kenny drive. And it needs to be more of the norm rather than the exception.
David Howman (06:25)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there were Sam Levitt was, you we've all kind of tiptoed around this. He was this was his worst game that we've seen him play. Granted, that is a low bar because for the most part, he's been pretty spectacular. You know, all his freshman year last year, even against NAU, he, you know, he only went to Jordan Tyson pretty much. But the throws he made to Jordan Tyson were, you know, a lot of them were very impressive. ⁓
Andrew Hayslett (06:26)
Yeah.
David Howman (06:55)
This did not look like the Sam Levitt that we've all come to know. Andrew, you've probably seen him in person the most out of ⁓ any of us. Like, how shocking was this to you to see the version of Sam Levitt that we saw on Saturday night in Starkville?
Andrew Hayslett (07:15)
extremely. I don't remember any practice I've been to where he's just looked downright terrible like he did last Saturday. Yes, he's always, sometimes doesn't connect on passes or two. I think he tends to overthrow balls more than under throw balls, which is something I believe he said last Saturday, but it was not something this jarring.
I feel like that's the right word because this is... The train was going, the Samlok type train was going and then it just...
derailed. That's what happened. I don't know. That's something I'm going to look at next Monday or not next Monday, next Tuesday and Wednesday when I'm at practices is how is Sam looking? What's his vibe? Is he still the same kind of upbeat or is he just a little slower? That's something I'm going to look for and we'll see how the rest of the staff.
and other players are as well. Is the mood still the same or is it not?
David Howman (08:27)
Yeah, mean, that's always a big thing in college football too because like, I mean, in the NFL, it's a little bit different when you lose a game, rebounding to the next game, because they're professionals, they've done this for a while. They're also getting paid obscene amounts of money to do this. ⁓ These are college kids, these are guys who...
Tom Hardon (08:28)
You what?
David Howman (08:48)
⁓ You know, some of them aren't even old enough to drink. They have to, you know, go to classes maybe, ⁓ you know, depending on how good of a player you are, I guess. ⁓ You know, there's so many different things that can impact their daily life on top of the football aspect of it. ⁓ So I'm really curious to hear your report from practice with how San Levitt looks and how the mood is around this team. ⁓
Like, I mean, in the first half, was, he completed five of 15 passes, like just horribly erratic. And then in the second half, you know, he was better, but it was also, I mean, he only attempted six passes the entire second half. And like the game plan very clearly was like, let's not use Sam Levitt, which is.
It was just crazy, but it ended up working. They moved the ball much better. ⁓ and the run game got going and Relique Brown also showed some impressive strength for how tiny he is. But I, know, it was, it, I don't know what it was. You know, he wasn't seeing the field. were plenty of guys that were open that he just did not throw the ball to. He was thrown off of his back foot frequently.
He was overthrowing guys, know, Malik McLean, two different first downs that he just sailed it. Even the touchdown to Jordan Tyson. mean, he could have put it right on his back shoulder. It'd been a fairly easy touchdown. Tyson had to dive down to the ground to get it. I thought for a second that he came down outside of the end zone and we were going to have replay go against us on that one. you know, of course it wasn't all Sam Levitt. There were plenty of other issues. ⁓
But that one was definitely the most jarring to me just because his worst game before this was nowhere near this bad. And ⁓ I know the cowbells are their own factor that goes into it, but I was still surprised to see such a huge drop off in performance.
Tom Hardon (10:56)
Did any of you have a migraine from the cowbells for three plus hours? I know I sure did.
Andrew Hayslett (10:56)
Yeah.
David Howman (11:01)
Honestly, I think it's cool. know, Tom, I know you like hate it passionately. I think it's cool.
Andrew Hayslett (11:03)
I
Austen Bundy (11:10)
Sounded like a bunch of cicadas the entire time when I was listening to the broadcast.
Andrew Hayslett (11:15)
Yeah, ⁓
Tom Hardon (11:15)
We just need to bring
back the Vuvuzelas.
Austen Bundy (11:18)
Yeah, exactly. Could you imagine Mountain America Stadium filled with vuvuzelas? Now that would be something.
Tom Hardon (11:24)
Yes, please.
David Howman (11:25)
Yeah,
let's do it.
Andrew Hayslett (11:27)
Bye.
Someone who is at the practices, I'm fine if I don't hear another cowbell in my life again. And wasn't as bad as Mississippi State. Here's something I don't understand fully is why, like I'm not making an excuse of like, this is why Sun Devils lost, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not even saying it's unfair. Why is it, why is only Mississippi State allowed to bring cowbells when everyone else is banned?
Austen Bundy (11:33)
You
Andrew Hayslett (11:58)
That's my question. I'd like to have an answer, but that's not... it's just their tradition. Well, why can't someone else start their own tradition of not necessarily cowbells, but something different that's similar to cowbells? I don't know.
David Howman (12:14)
Well Texas Tech has the tortillas
that they throw in the field.
Austen Bundy (12:18)
Oklahoma State has the paddles on third down, don't they? They slam the paddles.
David Howman (12:20)
Yeah.
Andrew Hayslett (12:25)
That's just my two cents and then kind of kind of going back to the run Running game is that something I wanted to see more of in the first half is we saw in the NAU game whenever the Sun Devils did run the ball was effective it wasn't they didn't run it often and like When I was sitting there writing my halftime article the only good piece that I said was on the offense was
David Howman (12:27)
Yeah.
Andrew Hayslett (12:52)
Kanyu Yudou is running the ball very well. And they clearly adjusted, right? But I don't know why that wasn't their game plan right away. You have to run to open up the pass. It's an old saying from who knows when, but that's something I would like to see moving forward at this point, because we know that the run game is very good.
The pass game is suspect. Let's run to open up the pass.
David Howman (13:22)
What? mean,
even...
Austen Bundy (13:23)
dare
I say it and feed the trolls a little bit but the first thought I had when the ⁓ running game was not working or when Sam was having trouble with the play calling was Cam Scadaboo really the entire offense last year? Is that what we're witnessing right now? Like without Cam Scadaboo can the offense really not operate? that was that how important he was?
David Howman (13:45)
mean, the New York Giants fan is the one who says that, of course, but...
Austen Bundy (13:49)
Hey, man, you should have seen him today. I don't care that we lost, but he blew up a few commanders.
Tom Hardon (13:49)
Yeah, yeah, you still get them.
David Howman (13:54)
No,
I saw he looked good. Not great for my fantasy team I have him on, but you know, that's not his fault. He'll get a better coach next year.
Austen Bundy (14:00)
Hahaha
Tom Hardon (14:01)
You
Austen Bundy (14:05)
better offensive line too
David Howman (14:09)
gotta be better than what it is this year. I mean, Kim's gotta be where not. I mean, they have the talent. We've seen that they have the talent. I mean, both both Yudo and Relic Brown both had over 100 rushing yards in this game. If they ran the ball more consistently against NAU, they probably would have had similar results too. ⁓ But also, Andrew, your point, like,
But even when they came out earlier and they were thrown in, mean, they had guys that were open too. The Mississippi State defense was not good. It was all just miscommunications on, there was one where.
It looked like Levitt was throwing to Tyson and he thought it was supposed to be like a comeback route. Tyson was trying to go, you know, up top. Miscommunications between him and the receivers are sometimes just like it looked like he didn't know what his read was supposed to be. There was the one play that the broadcast team pointed out. Broadcast team, of course, featured, you know, Sun Devil legend and quarterback Brock Osweiler. Did you know that he's six foot eight, by the way? He's tall. ⁓
Tom Hardon (15:17)
I don't think so.
David Howman (15:19)
And they pointed out where he had a guy wide open down the middle of the field. He like even like started to lean into the throw and then pulled up and then overthrows Malik McClain on the other side of the field. So I mean, yeah, they I agree that they should should come out running the ball, especially because we've seen how that can be effective now. But also, I mean, they could have they should have.
racked up 40, 50 points in this game just based on the way the defense was giving stuff up. They just, they couldn't get it done.
Tom Hardon (15:50)
there was
no intention behind his throws from what I could see. Like you were saying, thrown off his back foot and then not only the overthrows, but his first interception was under thrown. to me, that decision making on the throw was highly questionable among many other questionable things that went on throughout the game. there needs to be...
David Howman (15:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Hardon (16:19)
more assertiveness in his throws. We've seen it from him before, we've seen what he can do, and we're just not seeing it so far this season.
Austen Bundy (16:28)
That second interception or, yeah, the second interception, the very last one in the game, who was he throwing to? I tried to watch the replays. I have no idea what read he had that he thought he was trying to throw something into.
David Howman (16:38)
Tyson was coming
Tom Hardon (16:38)
Okay.
that like
David Howman (16:41)
under, but the throw wasn't near him, but it looks like that's who he was trying to go to.
Tom Hardon (16:47)
I mean, that one I kind of... You gotta hook it up and go for the chunk play, so I'm not as critical on that interception. Like, yeah, it sucked, and I left the restaurant we were at and went straight across the street to the Lincoln Park concert immediately after, but I'm not as hard on him for that second interception as I am for the first interception.
Austen Bundy (17:13)
mean when you got two timeouts, I mean you shouldn't be throwing across the middle of the field like that. Those should be side line passes. Your first two downs should be side line passes because you got two timeouts there. You need to be utilizing ⁓ the field as best as you can. I don't understand what the play call was there or who he saw. I mean it just didn't make any sense to me. I don't know what Kenny called into him or what he audible out of but.
just I'm not questioning his football IQ but there was just a bunch of instances where it was like Sam I don't know what you're seeing I just can't see it
Tom Hardon (17:47)
I mean, you only have three receivers who recorded catches. Tyson, Rolik Brown, and Cam Harpole. So there is some tight end involvement for the token catch of the game. work the progression when you need to and utilize everybody you have and just step into your throws instead of hocking off the back foot.
David Howman (18:12)
Well, and another thing too that I think went maybe a little bit under reported to you was that Jalen Moss wasn't able to suit up for this game with his injury. You know, I know it was kind of a talking point last week because we all kind of felt, you know, Jalen Moss is going to come in. He's going to be this really reliable number two guy. Like obviously they're going to feed Jordan Tyson because he's you know, he deserves that. But when they can't go to him, Jalen Moss is going to be that guy. He actually came into the game against NAU. ⁓
with I believe it was 25 straight games with at least one completion that was tied for the 15th most of any player in college football. And then had that snapped against NIU. He had two targets, didn't catch it. And then the injury prevented him from getting any more involvement. So I don't know if he was able to go in this game, if that changes anything. mean, Sam Levitt is still.
He's still missing guys that are wide open. It doesn't really change much but Maybe it adds some extra dimension or helps him just calm down a little bit more knowing his receiving core is at full strength ⁓ But yeah, I mean there were you know, there's questions with the quarterback questions with some of the offensive play calling especially in that first half ⁓ Also, I know you you really wanted to talk about the defensive play calling especially that one at the end ⁓
Honestly, I don't have much of an issue with the way that the defense played as a whole in this game I mean the very first drive was awful and like I mean that Mississippi State offense the way that they play with tempo it is hard and When that first drive happened, I was like, yeah, that's gonna be how it is all night. So I was impressed that They really pulled it in after that. I mean between that first drive and that last drive
I mean they only gave up 10 points for almost the entire game. I know that's cherry-picking two very important drives out of the game, but I was overall impressed. I thought Brian Ward settled into the game. I thought the defensive line especially settled into the game and the fact that the defensive line did so well against an SEC team, granted it's Mississippi State, but I thought that was encouraging.
Austen Bundy (20:25)
Yeah,
I I don't disagree with you that the defense played well for a majority of the game. I mean, that first drive, I give him a little bit of a mulligan just because like you're feeling out this team. You're first stepping out onto the field against all the cowbells and SEC environment. Like, fine, we move on from there. And they did. It's that last drive where they're playing prevent defense. mean, my dad has preached it to me my entire life. Prevent defense prevents a win. It does not do anything to stop ⁓ the team that's the most desperate from getting chunk yard.
and putting themselves in a position to have a chance to win. Your defense should be playing the same defense it played the entire game because it stopped them from scoring. But on that last play, the one where they got burned, I don't understand, again, like going back to the Peach Bowl, why are you playing cover zero in a last minute effort where they're gonna take a shot? Like, they need the whole field. They're going to take a shot at some point. I don't understand what the play call was to have the linebacker. I don't remember who it was.
but the linebacker decides to shift inside away from his man and he goes and blitzes. ⁓ think it was CBS Sports who was analyzing the play and said that Arizona State lives by the blitz and they die by the blitz. They died by the blitz on that last play because the linebacker slides off his guy, he goes to try and blitz and then he falls, he trips. Granted that could be like.
chalked up to a fluke thing like just a bad luck type of deal. again, like you shouldn't be sending your linebacker into blitz quarterback when you're already rushing four to five guys on prevent defense here. Like you've left your safety. You've left your DB on an island with the fastest guy in the NCAA. He gets underneath of him. And at that point, like there's nobody in the middle of the field. You've left them on an island. And ⁓ the other thing is when you look at the two
receivers that they lined up on the right, they had both of our DBs in chains because both of them couldn't decide who was going to take the assignment. I don't remember who was on that right side, but the two guys, you can see them trade off at one point and you can tell they know they've made a mistake because they hesitate and they have a stutter step when they trade off who's going to take who. And at that point, when the receivers underneath of your DB and he's the fastest guy in the NCAA, good night. You're done because he got way ahead of him. He was wide open and he
There's no way you were going to catch them.
Andrew Hayslett (22:47)
Yeah, I believe it was Breedlove and Robinson there on the last play. Robinson, well done.
Tom Hardon (22:47)
or not.
Austen Bundy (22:51)
yes robinson was the one that
was posted that was on the far right was a
Andrew Hayslett (22:55)
He was the one that was with the receiver at the end of the play.
Austen Bundy (22:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Hardon (23:01)
All three touchdown passes were 45 plus yards and know, Brendan Thompson was, he was circled on my sheet as a player to watch and he burned us exactly as I thought he had the potential to.
David Howman (23:16)
But I mean also that last play like Like is that a bad play call or I know how awesome feels is that a bad play call or is it? To fluke things that happen is the guy that you send on the blitz gets tripped up and it looks like it looked like he kind of collided with the receiver as he was getting off of off of his release and You know, it's incidental contactor and you know, I was screaming at my TV office of passenger like give us that back but
If he doesn't get tripped up, I mean, I don't know if he actually gets to the quarterback in time or anything, but at the very least that could help speed up the process. Maybe Blake Shapin doesn't have enough time to see that throw, he checks it down to somebody. But also the miscommunication between Robinson and Reedlove. It's not like Brian Ward radioed in and said, hey, I'm gonna call the play where.
You know, we blitz and trip and then you guys don't know who takes which like is that on the play calling or is that you know, this has been a ⁓ draining game and it's a loud environment and people just You know you get to the end of the game like that and you just One side makes a play and the other one can't catch up to it. So
Austen Bundy (24:13)
You
If you're playing for event defense, you don't leave the middle of the field open. That does not prevent anything.
David Howman (24:38)
I don't think a blitz is prevent defense though.
Tom Hardon (24:43)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and just say it's execution and a lapse of focus on that final play and it just culminated in the perfect opportunity for the Bulldogs.
Andrew Hayslett (24:52)
I think it's a little bit of both, if you call up a better play that has less chances of something failing, the odds are going to be that you're in a better situation. Granted, things are going to fail and you can't control when they're going to fail, so that happens, but I think for me at the end of the day, you have to take that in consideration and then the consideration of if you...
throw up like cover two or something, there's less opportunities for failure. So you kind of got both hands here. It's like yes and no to answer your question.
David Howman (25:34)
Yeah,
and I mean, execution is undoubtedly a part of it, depending on how much you assign the blame, one way or the other. But I kept thinking on that final drive before the big touchdown, I thought back to the BYU game, where I was just like, you know, and that one, you know, as you went up in the final minute or so, and I was like, I was like, man, I know, you know, the battered faith in me, I was like, I know exactly how this is going. They're about to drive down the field.
something stupid's gonna happen and we're gonna give up the score here. And then I don't remember if it was Robinson or Abmey that got the almost pick six in that game. ⁓ But I mean, the defense stepped up and made a play. And that was like such a shocking moment for me because I was so used to previous Arizona State teams, whether it was Kenny Dillingham's first year, whether it was the Herm Edwards era, the Todd Graham era, the Dennis Erickson era.
Andrew Hayslett (26:16)
in the
David Howman (26:33)
you know, it comes down to it in the fourth quarter and they just, they're not the one that steps up and executes like that. And that's why last year felt so different. That's why last year was so different. And so I, going into that drive, I was like, someone's going to make a play and nobody did.
Tom Hardon (26:53)
Well, I'm going to raise a hypothetical that I'm sure is going to be ⁓ hotly debated, not just here, but elsewhere, is going for it on fourth and goal, instead of settling for the field goal. We're having a much different conversation. Either we get the touchdown or even if Mississippi State stops us, they're pinned back so far in their own territory. It doesn't give them the...
as good an opportunity as taking over from their own 25. I didn't like the conservative play call in that instance. Going for it on fourth and five in the second quarter and coming up short, give me the conservative play call when you're already in field goal range. That's the perfect situation where we should have kicked instead of settling for an 18 yarder and giving Mississippi State the ball when we know that they can.
run that temple offense and produced exactly the result that a lot of us knew that they could pull off.
Andrew Hayslett (28:01)
Yeah, I agree with you on that second point, Tom. have that drive circled as, are, the Sun Devils have the golden opportunity to get points on the board, get something going into halftime, even though this was, I think, 17-0 at this point, before that, before the final drive where Gomez made the field goal. Yeah, the penultimate drive of the half.
Tom Hardon (28:26)
Yeah, the second to last drive.
Andrew Hayslett (28:32)
like get some points on the board, put three on, and all of sudden, okay, we have some momentum going into the half, which fortunately they did get a few goals later, but I feel for me, you gotta take, gotta kick vehicles when you're getting your first points of the game, tying the game, getting the lead.
and then to either go up a second score or to come in within a second score, to come into one score. And that's my philosophy. So I kick there and I also kick at the end personally. I know it's very Kenny Dillingham like, so that is surprising to me, but I would have kicked there, get the lead.
force the Mississippi State defense or offense rather who has yet to score this half score. That those are my thoughts and I would have kicked that field goal 10 times out of 10 had no doubt about that. ⁓
Tom Hardon (29:46)
I just think it's a situational thing. think if we're on the five, then yes, kick it. But being on the one with the chance to pin back and maybe even go for a safety late in the game, I think that you have to go for it on fourth and goal from the one.
Austen Bundy (30:01)
I think I'm leaning a little more towards Andrew at this point because given how the defense was playing the entire second half, I understand Kenny trusting the defense to do it one more time and you take the points when you know you can get those points. I mean, let's say you go for it on fourth and goal there, you don't punch it in and now you're having to risk going.
against Mississippi State in overtime. I don't necessarily like our chances in overtime when Mississippi State's defense seemed to bend but not break once you got inside the red zone. And then if you put Mississippi State's offense in the red zone, I'm not sure if our defense would be able to stop them each time. I feel like you would start getting into a little bit of a shootout at that point.
And I'm not sure I would have liked our chances with how Sam's decision making was going at that point. I mean, they were running the ball the entire time, but once you got into the red zone, the run game seemed to stall out a little bit. I mean, our touchdowns were mostly scored through the air after that point. You had the one to Jordan, which was a little iffy to begin with. So I think I'm Yeah, we had the one to start everything off, but like.
Tom Hardon (31:05)
with that six-yard rush touchdown.
Austen Bundy (31:12)
I think I'm with Andrew with you take the points when you know you can get them and the defense had been a brick wall that entire second half. I understand why you're gonna go and trust them to go and do that again.
Tom Hardon (31:25)
I admittedly I do like a little bit more of the aggressive side when it's the right time. I'm a guy going back to the 2014 World Series. I still think the Royals should have sent Alex Gordon for the Inside the Park Home Run in Game 7. That's just where I sit.
David Howman (31:42)
See I I'm more on Tom's side with this one and thinking we should have gone for it ⁓ And now I always I always start with the caveat anytime we talk about you know fourth down decisions I lean very aggressive I adhere to the Dan Campbell School of Football for the you Lions fans that are listening You know I'm like, you know, they give you four downs in football use them, you know
Obviously there's times where it makes sense to kick the field goal where it makes sense to punt. But as Tom was saying, I mean, you know, if you you kick the field goal, you're giving them the ball back at their own 25. They need 75 yards to go down there and score to take the lead a little bit less than that to get into field goal range. So it's a question of give them, you know, make them go 75 yards or if you go for it and you don't get it, 99 yards.
I understand the idea of like, I trust our defense. They've been so good. Like you can trust the defense, but why wouldn't you want to make it a little bit easier on them? It's easier to defend 99 yards of field than it is 75 yards of field. And here's the thing, if you go for it and you do get it, mean, technically they still could go and they could tie the game and then you go into overtime. You'll take those odds. mean,
And if you don't get it and then you're able to hold them and they're not able to get into field goal range, again, overtime. college overtime is great because both teams get a chance to touch the ball. Different story in the NFL, but this is college. And so I just think as soon as they came up short on third down, like Andrew said, I thought for sure Kenny was going for it.
Tom Hardon (33:13)
correctly.
David Howman (33:25)
Because he is an aggressive guy. ⁓ Ironically, because I mentioned Dan Campbell when I was at the Big 12 Football Media Day this summer, and we were doing the post-interview scrum with Kenny, there was a reporter there who had specifically cited Dan Campbell and said, you made all the fourth down decisions last year, similar to Dan Campbell Alliance. Is that somebody that you try to emulate? ⁓
And he kind of, didn't really touch Dan Campbell specifically. He was just, you know, I try to be myself, you know, blah, blah, blah, all that, you know, coach speak. ⁓ but you know, the, the comparisons are easy to see and easy to make. thought there was no way that Arizona state wasn't going for it there at the very least trying to sneak Levitt across, you know, doing something with their run game, doing something like they did on that, that touchdown pass to Tyson where.
You the defense loads up to stop the run. You get that play action boot. Levitt is mobile enough to either evade any any pass rush and throw it or just run it himself. ⁓ There's just so many options there for you. And when he brought out the field goal unit in my head, I was like, this is going to come back to haunt us because you got to be aggressive. You got to go for it there. And then as soon as ⁓ as soon as the touchdown happened later and they lost the game.
I said to my wife who was watching with me, I said, that's why you go for it, Kenneth, because he's not Kenny at that point. He loses the right to get the cool name Kenny, he's Kenneth. And Coach Dillingham, if you are watching this, all respect. Love you, love what you're doing. I just respectfully disagreed on that moment and... ⁓
Tom Hardon (34:59)
Ha
David Howman (35:15)
very much in agreement with Tom, they should have gone for it. As somebody who has won plenty of games on EA college football, 25 and 26, that's my professional opinion.
Austen Bundy (35:29)
So we all know now that Tom and David have exclusive diets of knee caps.
Tom Hardon (35:33)
Exactly.
David Howman (35:35)
I actually earlier today, because we're recording this Sunday night to go out Monday morning, ⁓ I have a t-shirt that says, it's a Detroit Lions t-shirt and it says kneecaps, it's what's for dinner. And anytime that the Cowboys are not playing on the same day as the Lions, I'll wear that shirt ⁓ because I am such a Dan Campbell disciple. yes, kneecaps are delicious.
Yeah, but so we're split on that. We're split on whether or not they should have gone for it. Obviously, if they go for it, though, and they get the they get the touchdown, all of us would be sitting here saying, oh, it's a brilliant move. You know, but but then you can also go with go with the other argument of they shouldn't have even let it get to that point. You know, it never should have been that close.
Tom Hardon (36:23)
Exactly.
David Howman (36:35)
whole lot of other things that they should have done before that point. ⁓ Things they should have done after, like not playing prevent defense, but ⁓ either way what we're left with is Arizona State's one and one. But as we look at the rest of the Big 12, we're two weeks, we're three weeks technically, week zero counts. The three Big 12 teams played in week zero.
So we've seen a good bit of these other Big 12 schools play out there. Worth noting, Kansas State, who was the odds-on favorite to win the Big 12, they're in last right now at one and two. and one of the Big 12. The one win they had was against an FCS program. Who was it? North Dakota. It was a good FCS program, but ⁓ Kansas State needed a last second drive. What's that?
Andrew Hayslett (37:22)
North Dakota. North Dakota.
Austen Bundy (37:29)
Even then they needed like a last minute drive to win.
Even then they needed a last minute drive to beat them.
David Howman (37:36)
They needed a last minute drive to beat them. And I mean, they haven't looked great. ⁓ Oklahoma State got predictably destroyed. Yeah. Yeah, they have not looked like the front runner. ⁓ Baylor beat SMU in overtime, but they lost to Auburn the week before. ⁓ Kansas for a while looked like they were going to blow out Mizzou, and then it went the opposite way. So how's everybody feeling about?
Tom Hardon (37:42)
And all three of their games have been decided by three points.
Andrew Hayslett (37:50)
Yeah.
Tom Hardon (37:55)
That was an exciting game to watch.
Andrew Hayslett (37:58)
with this.
David Howman (38:05)
Arizona State's chances to repeat its big 12 champs at this point, both with what we've seen from the Sun Devils, but also what we've seen around the big 12.
Andrew Hayslett (38:15)
Alright.
Austen Bundy (38:15)
very high
on it. I'm not very high on our chances to repeat right now. If I had to give you two teams that I'm expecting to see either in contention or do be playing in Dallas ⁓ for the Big 12 championship game, I would take Utah and TCU at this point. I do not want to see either of those teams. I know we got to play TCU relatively soon. I can't remember. Is Utah on our schedule this year? I don't want to see either one of those programs this year. I do not feel good about that at all.
Andrew Hayslett (38:38)
Yes.
David Howman (38:38)
Yep.
In salt lake.
Tom Hardon (38:42)
Yeah, we.
TCU is coming up on the 26th and we are at Utah on October 11th.
Andrew Hayslett (38:53)
for me, because way back in July when I released my Big 12 predictions, I said Baylor was going to lose to SMU but beat Auburn, so that flip-flopped on me, which...
I don't know what to make of them right now. But I've been very high on TCU. Number one my big 12 power rankings last week on Devils in Detail. It's going to probably be the same this week. We'll see. Read to find out. ⁓ But yeah TCU, Iowa State, ⁓ and Utah are three of the scariest teams right now I'd have to say that come to my mind.
David Howman (39:37)
Yeah, well, Iowa State's the only one that's 3-0 at this point.
Tom Hardon (39:38)
Yeah, TCU and Iowa State for me.
It'll be interesting to see when Texas Tech plays a real team instead of a couple of teams that voluntarily go to get their lunch stolen.
Andrew Hayslett (39:55)
their tortilla store.
David Howman (39:57)
Yeah, well, I mean to that point though. mean a year ago Texas Tech In those types of games. I mean they in week one last year they won an overtime against FCS Abilene Christian and Which by the way fun fact Abilene Christian their head coach is ⁓ Keith Patterson who was Todd Graham's right-hand man and defensive coordinator at Arizona State back in the day the one who blitzed
you know, nine guys every single play, never played anything but Pressman. ⁓ So, ⁓ fun fact there, but he did take Texas Tech into overtime last year. The Red Raiders, I think they also lost in Pullman the week after. ⁓ So it's encouraging for them that they're at least blowing out the teams they should be blowing out at this point. I also think BYU is 2-0. Granted, they haven't played great teams either. ⁓
but they haven't given up a touchdown yet, gave up a field goal this last week, and their run game, you know, obviously we know the quarterback situation's a question mark, but their run game has been really, really strong. Their defense has been great. We'll see how things change once they face other Big 12 programs, but they could potentially be another team that is right there in the mix just based on how they've looked this far.
Arizona State could also be in the mix.
Tom Hardon (41:25)
That's the thing with these conferences, they're so wide open.
Austen Bundy (41:28)
Never say never.
David Howman (41:30)
Yeah. Well, and I mean, for most of last year, it felt like none of us really took the Sun Devils seriously until that win over BYU, which was so late in the game too. You know, they barely beat Mississippi State last year. They struggled to beat Texas State. mean, that was, you know, struggled as maybe offensive, but it was a close game between the two. You know, Texas Tech handled them pretty well in that big 12 season opener.
⁓ you know, then what's that?
Austen Bundy (42:01)
I wrote him off after Cincinnati. I'll
be honest. I wrote the Sun Devils off after the Cincinnati game.
David Howman (42:07)
Yeah, and that felt like, here's where the other shoe drops. And then they turned around, they upset Kansas State in Manhattan, they upset BYU, stormed the field twice because once isn't good enough. ⁓ the season took on so many different turns last year in terms of the overall Big 12 race. things could change so drastically from here on out. I just think.
You know, Arizona State has the talent. We know that they have the talent. have no other team in college football has more returning starters from last year. I think they just need to, I don't know what they need to figure out, but once they get to a point where things do start clicking, maybe this was their wake up call. You know, they should be able to run the table because it doesn't look like, you know, there's a couple of teams we all just highlighted as these guys could be the top guys, but it's not like
Everybody looks great. I mean, West Virginia just lost to Ohio. Not Ohio State, Ohio. ⁓
Tom Hardon (43:14)
Shut up, Maxion.
David Howman (43:16)
I mean, I love Max, but a big 12 team shouldn't be losing to them. Even West Virginia in their first year with Rich Rod. You know, of course, the other school in this state is, you know, they're also 2 and 0. I guess they look better than they did last year, but kind of had to.
Austen Bundy (43:19)
Mac Attack.
Tom Hardon (43:37)
I
have a fantasy league that likes to remind me that that school has a better record in 2025 than ASU does. I'm one of two Sun Devils in that league. It's painful.
David Howman (43:50)
don't think that's gonna last.
Austen Bundy (43:54)
Let's hope.
Tom Hardon (43:55)
Here's hoping.
David Howman (43:57)
But none of us think that Arizona State can win them, the Big 12. Is that fair or?
Andrew Hayslett (44:06)
I still think they can. mean, this conference is... We saw it at the end of last year. No one expected Iowa State to just lose a few games that they should have won. Colorado, BYU as well. Just anything can happen, I think. And at the end of the day, it's a non-conference loss. It really doesn't matter to get to the Big 12 Championship because that's what you need to do at this point.
I think the only way Arizona State makes the college football playoff if they wind up losing that Big 12 championship game is they run the rest of table in the regular season Which that's obviously something you want to do But that shouldn't be the goal the good the goal right now should be to make the big 12 championship game Win that and get the out of it That's how the Sun Devils are going to get to the college football playoff at this point in time
you
Tom Hardon (45:07)
Talk to me after the TCU game and that'll give me a better idea of what our shot is of getting to the conference championship game and getting to the playoff. We haven't even played a conference game yet. There's only one conference game that's been played across the entire Big 12. Let's get a few more weeks into the season and see what everybody else does around us. That'll give a better idea of where we stand in regards to everybody else.
Austen Bundy (45:35)
Yeah, they're going to the same boat with Tom. Now check back in after TCU. That's the first think that's the first test where they can pull off that upset. At this point I am calling it an upset. ⁓ That's where I think we should have our confidence level checked at that point. But if we're not able to handle any business there, then it's I think it's just going to be a long season. Maybe we'll see maybe we'll see you see him at the Alamo Bowl at best.
David Howman (46:04)
Boy, ending the episode on a depressing note, aren't we? I was about to transition into ASU falling out of the top 25, and before I even got there, you're like, know, Alamo ball best case scenario. But yeah, like I said, ASU did fall out of the top 25. They started the season 11th, dropped to 12th after beating NAU, kind of rightfully so, and now they're completely out.
Tom Hardon (46:06)
the crap, the crap, the under bowl.
Austen Bundy (46:08)
Hahaha
David Howman (46:35)
None of you guys seem to agree with me that that's a huge unwarranted fall. I thought they would land somewhere between 20 and 25. That's 12 to nothing. Like, I mean, it's the SEC. It means more.
Austen Bundy (46:48)
The AP voters have always had a vendetta
against ASU. I've never trusted the AP voters when it comes to them and ASU. They are extremely ⁓ harsh when it comes to Arizona State football for some reason. I don't know why. Look at Alabama. I mean, you have Alabama lose to an unranked Florida State team. They have the exact same record as ASU. They beat a cushy team in week two.
They get to stay in the top 25? Like, give me a break. Like, there's a ton of SEC bias there. And I get it, Florida dropped out of the top 25, too, after losing to South Florida. But we now know South Florida is the leader in the group of five when it comes to the college football playoff. They beat Boise State, and then they beat Florida. Florida shouldn't have dropped out either. Like, I don't get why the AP voters are being ultra harsh this year compared to other years. But even then, like, we all know Arizona State just not, they don't get second chances when it comes to the AP voters. And I just don't understand why.
Tom Hardon (47:39)
I think that us dropping out of the top 25 is warranted. think right outside is a reasonable drop. But Austin, your point about why the AP voters are being how they are, the drop that really puzzles me is Michigan dropping eight spots after losing to number 18, Oklahoma, at Oklahoma. I can understand if you're losing at home at the big house and if it was by...
It wasn't a small margin of victory. It it was 24-13 final, but you're going on the road into ⁓ that hostile environment and.
Me personally, I did not see them dropping as much.
Andrew Hayslett (48:27)
me, I'm not surprised Arizona State is out of the top 25. I was kind of going back and forth. Are they going to be one of first teams out or the last two in? I think they should be first out. I said last week. My theory on all these polls are a lot on record at this point. You have the chance to play.
your way into this losing for me takes you out like I mentioned last week Texas still not in my my top 25 Notre Dame same way it's a different way of thinking I know I get that but I want to see results you didn't get the results and there's other teams that are 2-0 3-0 that deserve the spot that's my opinion it's a different opinion it's unorthodox but that's how I think results matter
That's it.
David Howman (49:24)
Yeah, and I I agree with, know, if you play poorly, you know, you shouldn't be there. I just think, you know, because we've gotten into the routine with the top 25, whether it's the AP, the coaches, whoever else it is that does it. Of course, we do it here at Devils in Detail as well. So that's coming out. Make sure to check the site for it. But usually, you know, so much of it is like, well, they, you know,
Well, they were at 12 and they lost on a last second play. Because it was also a late night game, so a lot of these voters probably aren't even watching the game, even though we know they definitely watch all the games. But it's like, you look, say, oh, well, they lost, but they lost on the last second touchdown, crazy 50-some yarder. OK, so we'll drop them from 12, obviously. Drop them to 22 and
you if they lose again, then they're definitely out. I was surprised that they dropped all the way out because again, last year put everybody on notice. Everybody started buying into this team and rightfully so. I mean, they took Texas to two overtimes and maybe that's the problem is, you know, they almost beat Texas and that was our like, we're legit moment, but now Texas doesn't look good. maybe we need the Longhorns and Arch Manning to help us out before we start getting more respect.
retroactive way. that what I'm, I think that we're onto something there.
Tom Hardon (50:54)
I think even if we play out my hypothetical, if we go for it, get the touchdown, we do pull off the win. I think we're still dropping in the poll, even with a win.
David Howman (51:05)
Oh, for sure. You know, one or two spots maybe. Because it wasn't a good game. mean, the reality is they didn't deserve to win the game. But they did make enough adjustments to put themselves in a position to win the game.
Tom Hardon (51:23)
I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in the locker room at halftime because I'm sure a lot of what Kenny had to say cannot be repeated on TV or, you know, in any publication for that matter.
David Howman (51:35)
Yeah?
But we'll never know. I mean, ultimately it didn't matter because it didn't result in a win at the end. ⁓ of course, we'll ⁓ be paying attention closely to what the players say, what the coaches say this week, going into practice, like we mentioned. ⁓ Andrew's going to let us know what Sam's vibe is at practice, if he feels maybe acts more like normal Sam or, you know.
what we can expect when they go up against Texas State again. Of course, this game is going to be in Mountain America Stadium. That bodes well for them. ⁓ But until that game happens, right now all we're left with is bad feelings and feelings of regret ⁓ over a wide variety of things. But it's been a great time going through this little venting session with you all. ⁓
You like I said, it was sad for me to hop back on and have to immediately jump into... that. But, I feel it felt cathartic for me. Anybody else?
Tom Hardon (52:46)
It was nice to be in a safe space where our vibes were the same.
David Howman (52:53)
Yeah, yeah, we're processing it all together And of course we'll be we'll be back Friday as well breaking down that game against Texas State and all the things that the Bobcats pose as a threat for Arizona State and You know hoping for a better outcome, but yeah until next time thanks for listening for Tom Austin Andrew David Hellman signing off for echo from the views. Remember always give them hell devils
David Howman (53:24)
you