Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Conversations about Creating a Culture of Activity: Profiling the people, places, programs, and policies that help to promote a culture of activity within our communities.
Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:10:23
Alice Ferguson
Putting out this report is it's kind of feels like an important part of our legacy. In terms of the bigger picture, policy changes that we want to see.
00:00:10:26 - 00:00:22:04
Tim Gill
I think we both take encouragement from is that the the community of practice and the community of care around children and the built environment is growing fast. It's just it's got so much fun.
00:00:22:06 - 00:00:39:26
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Active Towns channel. My name is John Cinnamon and that is Alice Ferguson and Tim Gill. And we are going to be talking about a fantastic new report that they put together as part of the playing out organization. We're going to get to that in just a moment. But before we do that, I just need to say thank you.
00:00:39:26 - 00:00:58:14
John Simmerman
So much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Hey, super easy to do. Just click on the join button right here in YouTube down below, or you can leave a YouTube super thanks or navigate over to Active Town Star Org.
00:00:58:14 - 00:01:09:14
John Simmerman
Click on the support tab at the top of the page, and there's several different options. Okay, let's get right to it with Tim and Alice.
00:01:09:17 - 00:01:14:27
John Simmerman
Tim and Alice, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.
00:01:14:29 - 00:01:16:25
Tim Gill
Great to be having us.
00:01:16:27 - 00:01:35:00
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. This will be fun. It's always fun with three people, so we'll do our best not to talk over each other. And I'll help direct you all. With that, Alice, you're new to the channel. I have never had the opportunity to meet you or interview you, so I'm super, super delighted, to to meet you.
00:01:35:03 - 00:01:41:23
John Simmerman
And, please take about 30s to introduce yourself to the active town's audience.
00:01:41:25 - 00:02:33:04
Alice Ferguson
Okay. So, I guess my main, claim to fame is, founding an organization called Playing Out, which is a UK based, grassroots campaigning organization that supports children's right to play outside in the streets and the spaces where they live. Particularly in the, in the doorstep space right outside their front door. And towards that we have supported, well developed and supported a model called Temporary Play Streets, where neighbors get together to close their street to cars for 2 or 3 hours once a week or once a month to, reclaim the space for children and play.
00:02:33:08 - 00:02:45:27
Alice Ferguson
And on top of that, we've also done a lot of campaigning for a policy change to remove the barriers to children's freedom. So that's yeah, that's basically me.
00:02:45:29 - 00:03:04:11
John Simmerman
And I'm going to pull up your website here. So we've got the playing out website. Folks, you can, you know, pop on over and take a look at the resources that, that we have over there. Now, Tim, you and I, we go way back. This is your third time. Yeah, this is your third time on the channel.
00:03:04:11 - 00:03:11:23
John Simmerman
Thank you so much for joining me once again. The same with you, Tim. Seconds or so of a background. Who the heck.
00:03:11:26 - 00:03:37:10
Tim Gill
Is Tim Gill? Yeah. Well, it's a it's a pleasure to be back, John. I should start by saying I'm, a fan boy. So playing out on Alice and I first connected over the playing out emerging movement, I think 16, 17 years ago. And I am also a, independent scholar, consultant writer. And I really I fly the flag for children's outdoor play and mobility.
00:03:37:13 - 00:04:05:11
Tim Gill
I do a mix of writing, talking, research, advocacy before this connected with, with, you know, restoring children's spatial freedoms. And I'm based in London, but my work takes me, all over the world, which is very, very nice. And I think the last time you had me on, we talked about my most recent book, Urban Playground, How child Friendly Planning and Design Can Save Cities, which is.
00:04:05:13 - 00:04:10:02
Tim Gill
So put me on the map, I guess when it comes to urban planning and design.
00:04:10:05 - 00:04:38:04
John Simmerman
Well, actually, I'll correct you. The first time I had you on, we talked about the book. So. Yeah, way, way back when in, season three, episode 106. And by the way, this will be episode 333, three threes. I you gotta love that. So yeah, way back when we talked about the book, our most recent conversation, which was just a year ago, episode 300 and season nine.
00:04:38:06 - 00:05:00:13
John Simmerman
We went a little bit further and deeper into, you know, that ongoing fight to try to create more family friendly places and streets being, a big part of it. And this is a snapshot from, right there in your village. So this is, the little mini Holland installation there.
00:05:00:16 - 00:05:05:15
Tim Gill
Yes. I seem to remember you enjoyed that street a lot, gentlemen, on your visit.
00:05:05:18 - 00:05:23:06
John Simmerman
I enjoyed that so much. In fact, embedded in that particular conversation, Tim, we had some video playing of that whole mini Holland installation in the Walthamstow Forest or the village there area and it's, Orford Avenue. Is it road or Orford Avenue?
00:05:23:06 - 00:05:24:17
Tim Gill
Open road. Yeah.
00:05:24:19 - 00:05:55:00
John Simmerman
Or Fulford Road. Absolutely. Brilliant. And it's so it was so gratifying to see so many kids and so many families feeling like this is their space, and they could be there and the kids would be playing and everything, and it's just and it's almost illogical when you look at it and you're going, how did this street transform so much to where families felt comfortable just occupying the space, while at the same time it's still a bus route?
00:05:55:03 - 00:05:59:27
John Simmerman
It's just it was mind blowing. That's why I kept going back there every evening.
00:05:59:29 - 00:06:02:12
Tim Gill
Yeah, yeah, it's a wonderful place.
00:06:02:14 - 00:06:23:23
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I am super, super excited to have the, the, the three of us on to talk a little bit about the developments that have been, you know, maturing over these years and this report that you all have put out. What did you set us up? What are we going to be looking at, Alice. Lead the lead the way here.
00:06:23:25 - 00:07:05:25
Alice Ferguson
So yeah, I mean, I suppose the report came out of long term, feeling and confirmed by all of the work that we've done through playing it over all these years, that the main barrier to Children's act or freedom is kind of car dominance, car centric planning. And behind that, I suppose, thinking and policy that hasn't considered children's needs particularly, so we've, we've sort of, you know, and Tim has talked about this a lot as well.
00:07:05:25 - 00:08:00:04
Alice Ferguson
So it kind of made sense to come together and sort of consolidate. Thoughts around this about the impact of cars on children's lives and freedom and ultimately on on the health and well-being. I mean, we've got a huge issue with children's health and happiness in this country. Children are not getting the physical activity they need to be to be healthy and children in the UK, some of the most unhappy in, in the, in the world, so you know that there's a lot of, there's a lot of reasons for that, but we feel pretty strongly that part of the solution is to allow children to be outside, moving around, being in
00:08:00:04 - 00:08:34:22
Alice Ferguson
the world, meeting their friends, playing and getting all the, all the essential benefits that that gives them. And so, you know, thinking about streets and thinking about the way that we plan our, our neighborhoods and our cities, to prioritize children's needs better is an absolutely essential part of addressing all of that. And so, yeah, we just we just saw a need to talk more about this and confront it.
00:08:34:29 - 00:08:48:19
Alice Ferguson
And I suppose challenge policymakers and practitioners to really put children more at the heart of, of what they're doing.
00:08:48:21 - 00:08:54:00
John Simmerman
Right? Right. Tim, what would you add to what? Alice. Just,
00:08:54:02 - 00:09:18:03
Tim Gill
Yeah, I see it. That's very succinct. And, and and and and I think there's a couple of things. I mean, first, in terms of the, the tone of the report, I think, you know, it's quite hard hitting. We both we feel really strongly about this, both of us, that the, you know, there's a big elephant in the room and it's made of metal and we're not facing up to it.
00:09:18:03 - 00:09:38:01
Tim Gill
And we really wanted to home in on that. There's lots of stuff about child friendly cities and lots of stuff about urban communities, but but we really wanted to be clear, if you like, you know, who's the enemy, and I don't I don't want to get aggressive. And I don't think I was do we want to be positive and constructive?
00:09:38:03 - 00:10:22:26
Tim Gill
But we wanted to kind of speak truth about what's happening. And we also wanted to look across different topic areas that are often treated separately. So we wanted to look at road safety, and urban planning and enforcement, and culture, which and, and show how children, children's voice and children's lives, kind of just downplayed and or ignored or not valued in each of these areas because, for many decades, in fact, those areas have been centered around the needs and concerns of car drivers.
00:10:22:29 - 00:10:45:14
Tim Gill
So so that was part of the the goal was to bring together these sometimes disparate, siloed topic areas, each of which we found were, what are you to when in fact, it really badly shaped by the kind of car centric worldview.
00:10:45:17 - 00:11:19:07
John Simmerman
Right? Right. I want to pull up a, an image from our first, episode. Tim. But this historical image which shows up in your book, this one here, do explain what we're talking about here, because we're we're trying to put into relevance the fact that what we see now is not what we had. Historically, children were more independent and had a larger field of wandering.
00:11:19:09 - 00:11:25:25
John Simmerman
Walk us through this, this story, that is this this famous image that was, that was in your book.
00:11:25:27 - 00:11:58:17
Tim Gill
It is, and what it's it's encapsulates this crucial trend in children's spatial lives over the last 3 or 4 generations, which is how love, how much freedom of movement children have lost. And this is the math that comes up. This is one family and four generations. But that's a there's a much bigger picture. This trend is is one of the most, profound, universal and underexplored trends that's happening around the world.
00:11:58:17 - 00:12:24:19
Tim Gill
Alice talked about what's happening here in the UK. All of what she said, as you know, applies in the US, it applies in for high income countries. And we're seeing it in lower middle income countries as well. The same trends. And so one of the things about that map is it's a very powerful starting point for a conversation about, children's lives and how they've changed.
00:12:24:21 - 00:12:56:07
Tim Gill
And the part of the story here in all of you, the main part of the story about why children have lost all this freedom, this right to roam the main story, is that it's because our neighborhoods, our human habitats, have been shaped around the car and not around people and and have ignored the importance of the exploration and adventure and that role play, in the lives of children, which is, which is actually which characterizes our species.
00:12:56:07 - 00:13:14:29
Tim Gill
If you look at what we know about Homo sapiens and how young humans learn mostly, and for most of human history, they learn what they need to know by their own efforts and their own mistakes. And we've just cut that out, that that's in danger of vanishing altogether from children's lives.
00:13:15:01 - 00:13:46:16
John Simmerman
And we can see the inflection point. Right? I mean, it's you see, 19, 19 and then the dramatic decrease by the time 1950 rolls around. So we see that as the automobile took over our public realm and streets are are a big part of our public realm, if not the major part of our public realm. That's what happened is, yeah, we don't want to, you know, we don't want to demonize and in and, you know, pick a fight with, you know, the majority of the population that happens to drive.
00:13:46:16 - 00:13:55:01
John Simmerman
But we have to, you know, call it out and say, this is what has happened, is we allowed the automobile to take over our cities.
00:13:55:04 - 00:14:27:05
Alice Ferguson
Yeah, for sure. It's not about blaming individuals, you know, for for the transport choices, which have kind of been thrust upon all of us, you know, and we do. Yeah. We do talk about that. You know, it's it's it's a systemic problem. It's not an individualistic problem. But the other thing I was just going to say around that map is, I think it always feels important to point out this is not about being nostalgic, rose tinted.
00:14:27:05 - 00:15:04:12
Alice Ferguson
Oh, it was a little better back in my day. You know, it's not about that. It's about, you know, children have really lost out on something that they they needed, you know, that they need still and something that was like a universal offer to all children. So, you know, regardless of your family income, your circumstances, you know, whether your family owned a car or, you know, you had parents who could take you to places.
00:15:04:14 - 00:15:33:17
Alice Ferguson
All children pretty much had this, this outdoor freedom to life that gave them a lot of the kind of health and well-being benefits that, that they needed. So I think it's just also important to say that the impact of losing that universal offer has been much greater for children who don't have those other compensatory things in their lives.
00:15:33:17 - 00:15:45:05
Alice Ferguson
You know, they don't have parents that are driving them to paid for activities out of town or, you know, so, the impact of that change is also unequal.
00:15:45:07 - 00:16:10:13
Tim Gill
I know, taking that on a little bit and, and picking up on the point about nostalgia, but I think if you could get up one of the images size shared from the chart of of child road deaths, because this is part of the story. And I know when I share that map and I'm sure Alice has the same, and you see this too, you get people who say, oh, in my day it was so, so much better.
00:16:10:13 - 00:16:31:16
Tim Gill
And, and, we could play out and, you know, yes, yes, it that that's a very universal experience for, for, for people above a certain age. But it came at a price. And this chart that we're looking at now shows that price that, that for that period that many of us can remember when children had high levels of, of freedom.
00:16:31:18 - 00:16:59:25
Tim Gill
This is a UK child pedestrian deaths chart and I should say this one. This is this is difficult territory. We're talking about devastating tragedy in families. We're also seeing the insights from these patterns over decades. And what you see is that for the right up until the 80s, yes, children did enjoy high levels of freedom, but hundreds of children were dying and walking and biking around their neighborhoods every year.
00:16:59:28 - 00:17:43:01
Tim Gill
And again, the same is true in the US. It's only since about the 1980s where, as you picked up, there was this dramatic or really quite profound drop in children's freedom. So you really saw these death rates for you. And again, with children still, in our view, dying in a completely unacceptable numbers. And so the quick story about this whole episode of the century of childhood is for the first half of this period, children had a lot of freedom to travel around towns and cities, but there was a price to pay because of the growth in the dominance of the car.
00:17:43:04 - 00:18:06:16
Tim Gill
And then there was a more recent times. Effectively, families and children have withdrawn from the street, of course, has led to declining death rates. But at the expense of children's health and well-being. Now that is a it's a a little bit simplified, but in our view, it's the essence of this story. And it's really important when we come to those discussions about nostalgia and what it is like when I was a kid.
00:18:06:16 - 00:18:17:09
Tim Gill
And why can't it be like that? Today actually wasn't perfect back in the 70s or the 60s. If there were some deep seated problems that go right back to the dawn of the motor age.
00:18:17:11 - 00:19:07:07
John Simmerman
Right? Right. And we talked about things differently way back when, at the, at when the automobile was starting to come into play. And, and people were pushing back against the automobile taking over the space. We talked about it differently. And that's kind of what's represented here in 1927. And the title of this is Brooklyn Municipal Murder Map for the year 1927, which is brilliant when you also put it into context, several few decades later, in the 1970s, we had the, stop the kinder, more movement, stop the Child murder movement in in the Netherlands, which was one of the events.
00:19:07:07 - 00:19:28:06
John Simmerman
That was the turning point for how the Dutch started looking at their streets and pushing back against the, the automobile, just controlling the space. I mean, we really did push back against the car, just taking over our space. We kind of forget the fact that there was this tension that took place way back when.
00:19:28:08 - 00:19:55:28
Alice Ferguson
But I think what came, you could talk more about this man. But I think the point of this is that the policy response to all these horrific, you know, deaths and children losing their lives was not, oh, we need to do something about the danger of cars on our streets. We need to, you know, to tackle this and make the streets safe and push back.
00:19:55:28 - 00:20:04:23
Alice Ferguson
It was actually we need to get children off the streets. We need to clear the way for motor cars to to take care. That's it.
00:20:04:28 - 00:20:33:29
John Simmerman
So, Alice, that is such an excellent point because it's not even just the children. I mean, motor dumb and Peter Norton, I talked about this before multiple times, motored, really pulled together and tried to criminalize anybody occupying the street. And so the whole concept of a jaywalking, you know, fine. And that becoming illegal to walk the streets, you know, walk across the street wherever we're in, in an area where the streets were for people.
00:20:33:29 - 00:21:01:15
John Simmerman
Streets are for people, according to me, according to my coffee mug. And so, yes, that's a brilliant point, is that until we saw the successful pushback by the Dutch in the 1970s, what we did see as a response was criminalizing people being on the streets and reducing the level of freedom that all people had, but especially for children.
00:21:01:17 - 00:21:27:13
Tim Gill
Tim. Right. Yes. And what Peter Norton shows so, so brilliantly in his book is that this was a classic piece of corporate capture. And so it was about it was about fake news. It was about false science. It was about, you know, slander. Capturing the legislative process is exactly the kind of power place that you see with big oil and with tobacco, were happening.
00:21:27:17 - 00:21:54:28
Tim Gill
And one of the things is most insidious, but we felt we wanted to to bring it out in the report is that, you know, that that corporate capture happened 100 years ago and more or less it set in stone, if you like, the rules of the road about, you know, who's responsible for road safety. Why were streets for what a government need to do it set all of that in place over a period of about five years.
00:21:55:00 - 00:22:23:21
Tim Gill
So it's and really, since then, the motor industry has not had to do a whole lot to keep that going. It's become a kind of self maintaining worldview. And and it does it does break down, from time to time or partially so stop. The Kingdom mode was one example. We give some other examples Jane Jacobs, her campaign in New York City, of course, playing out itself as a movement to reclaim streets.
00:22:23:24 - 00:22:55:29
Tim Gill
But it's still incredibly hard to shake that, mindset that says, you know, streets of the cars, everybody else has to keep out of the way again. I send you, John, an image of a recent road safety campaign poster from Maryland that if you can get that one, too. I mean, I hope even your average person who doesn't think about this stuff very much would be shocked by the victim blame blaming that you see here.
00:22:56:01 - 00:23:19:23
Tim Gill
So to describe that that young person's face has tire tracks on it. I mean it's, it's it's savage, you know, it's it's, it's, it's a kind of sort of the degree of violence that's embodied in that image is, is really I find it hard to get my head around that.
00:23:19:25 - 00:23:47:20
Alice Ferguson
I was funny is not funny at all, but I was I was going to say that the kind of UK government road safety messaging sent since we were kids, like we used to have the green green cross code, man, and you know, these sort of fluffy, friendly, child focused education campaigns. It's all part of the same, you know, dominant mentality, which, which Tim has just talked about.
00:23:47:22 - 00:24:18:20
Alice Ferguson
But this is not Fluffy or Joe Gentle. It's horrific. Also, it's just going to add about a Stop Dickens mode because, you know, often it's held up as this great moment, this great sort of moment of change around streets. And obviously it was amazing what happened. But I actually went for tea with March of UN Putin, who was one of the main, parents behind it, in Amsterdam.
00:24:18:20 - 00:24:54:08
Alice Ferguson
And she was really angry, actually, at what had happened, subsequently. And, you know, she said after the initial change that happened, the the movement itself was kind of recaptured by this dominant road safety. So traditional road safety, sector mentality and, and became, you know, again all about let's teach children to keep themselves safe and where highways and teach them how to ride a bike safely.
00:24:54:08 - 00:25:04:19
Alice Ferguson
And it lost that sort of edge that it that it had starting out as a campaign against road violence against.
00:25:04:21 - 00:25:10:06
John Simmerman
And I think Marco to van de sorry, sorry.
00:25:10:08 - 00:25:11:02
Alice Ferguson
Trucks.
00:25:11:04 - 00:25:56:00
John Simmerman
But yeah. Yeah. Sorry with the Dutch name. Sorry. Marco. His book, I actually, Chronicle is, that quite well. And one of the things that I wanted to also mention is that this is exactly what motor Dom wants. Grant innocent, his, fabulous book, dark PR really Chronicles is how the motor vehicle industry and the oil and gas industry, employs these very, very intentional, very successful marketing tactics to get us, you know, focusing in on the wrong things, victim blaming and trying to worry about our individual carbon footprint.
00:25:56:05 - 00:26:36:08
John Simmerman
These are exactly playing into the overall strategies, the distractive, strategies that they are, you know, plant, you know, are wanting from us versus getting to the root of the problem and changing the systems and changing the way that we're looking at things. I'm not at all surprised that, you know, that one of those original parents behind the the stop, the Kinder Mort, movement was, was sort of disillusioned because it took 50 years for many of these cities to start really pushing back against the overall dominance of the automobile.
00:26:36:10 - 00:27:05:00
John Simmerman
It started in the 70s. But really, if you look at it critically, many of the Dutch cities didn't start getting to the point where, we really see, you know, an overall area of traffic calming. I mean, just now, I mean, just now, you know, in the last year or so, the entire city of, of Amsterdam, within the inner ring is implementing a 30km/h zone, really traffic calming.
00:27:05:00 - 00:27:36:05
John Simmerman
They've been removing tens of thousands of car parking spots on the streets. And so my point is, is that it's unfortunate that these changes, these reversals of returning again, streets are for people. Returning streets back to people takes decades and decades and decades. And I think it it also is important to point out that we hold the Dutch as a wonderful example, and we should.
00:27:36:07 - 00:27:58:13
John Simmerman
But they too, are still battling with the fact that, you know, the automobile still takes up the vast majority of the in dominate the public streets. And so, yeah, we can learn a lot from them. But we also have to be open eyed and clear eyed about the fact that they aren't perfect either. There is no such thing as a perfect city.
00:27:58:14 - 00:28:20:09
John Simmerman
So this is very, very troubling that this continues to be the point. The victim blaming aspect of this and the approach to this, and it is a distraction, and it is exactly the distraction that, you know, Grant talks about and Peter Norden talks about. So yeah. Yeah. How do we get how how do we get out of this guys.
00:28:20:09 - 00:28:21:18
John Simmerman
Come on.
00:28:21:21 - 00:29:00:14
Tim Gill
Okay. Well I'm going to have a first shot today which is, which actually picks up on some of Marco's, writings and some others that that. Okay, this is really hard because it's it's like the water we swim in. It's the air we breathe. So in a way, keeping on banging on about cars is probably not it, it's it's is, it's almost, you know, almost reinforcing the problem by doing that and what we're saying and, and, and Marco says this too is let's talk about how we can make the world a better place for everyone.
00:29:00:16 - 00:29:33:25
Tim Gill
And let's think about how we can build consensus and, a kind of long term vision and build support for that. And that the what we call a child lens is arguably the most effective way to do that. We were all children once, 20% plus of the population in any given town or city or country are children. We of course have a have a a social concern for children.
00:29:33:25 - 00:30:02:24
Tim Gill
When we think about children, we can't help but think about our connections and mutual responsibilities. It takes a village and all that. We can't help but think about the longer term. And there's really clear examples. We give some in the report of how a focus on children, a child lens helps to overcome some of those narrow vested interests that otherwise, you know, hold sway when it comes to transport and, and urban planning.
00:30:02:24 - 00:30:29:25
Tim Gill
So, so in a way, you know, any of the anyone listening to this, watching this who's not talking about children and wants to get more active travel, you know, safer neighborhoods, they really should be because, not just for the moral reasons that children are quite clearly lost out the most, but the kind of tactical reason that that's how you build support.
00:30:29:25 - 00:31:00:18
Tim Gill
And people like, Chris Boardman, who's powerful, x x Olympic cyclist and now head of both Cycling England and Sport England here on this side of the Atlantic, very powerful, influential man. He talks about children, young people all the time because he's realized that that's how you unlock support and how you build a shared vision of the future.
00:31:00:20 - 00:31:25:21
Alice Ferguson
I would just add to that, obviously we're not saying just talk about children because it's a, you know, because it's an easy way to get people on your side to it's also it is that but it's also, because, you know, children actually have specific needs which are different from adult needs. They use streets in a different way.
00:31:25:23 - 00:32:02:22
Alice Ferguson
They are more vulnerable for a lot of different reasons, partly because they're small, partly because their brains are not properly developed. So if we're not specifically thinking about children in the way that we design our environments, even if even if we're thinking about cycling, even if we're thinking about adults walking and cycling, we're still missing out something. We're still not creating an environment that necessarily works for children who don't just use streets as like routes to get from A to B in the most efficient way possible.
00:32:02:25 - 00:32:29:29
Alice Ferguson
They use streets to play. They, you know, to be outside, to be in the world, to call in their friends. They may and they, you know, and, so all of that understanding about literally how, how a child exists in the world needs to be kind of built in and considered in our environment if we want them to be able to be out there and to to be happy and healthy.
00:32:30:01 - 00:33:05:27
John Simmerman
Yeah. One of the things that I think is incredibly important to is to understand just how profoundly, the dominance of the automobile has changed the way we think. And, I had Marco and, Professor Ian Walker on to talk about this concept of motor normativity or car brain, and how that profoundly impacts and changes the way that we even think about how do we how do we deal with this?
00:33:05:27 - 00:33:53:16
John Simmerman
How do we correct for this? In hindsight, we can look back and say that, you know, when we had high levels of child freedom and we had the automobile taking over the space, our reaction was, well, let's make it illegal to cross the street and let's cloister our children into places where we now have this concept of helicopter parents and issues of decreasing the freedom and, the ability for kids to go out and play unless it is in their own private backyard, you know, it's suddenly their world continues to shake or shrink, just like we saw in that map.
00:33:53:18 - 00:34:31:16
John Simmerman
But a lot of this is just is it's driven to, from Tim, your perspective, it's driven from a point of of parents not wanting to see something bad happen to, to their children. But at the same time, we've ignored the fact that, especially within the last ten years, we've seen the incredibly negative impact of of screen time with, with children and children having, you know, immediate access to the supercomputer that happens to be in nearly everybody's back pocket.
00:34:31:19 - 00:34:55:29
John Simmerman
And so, you know, we have this situation, you know, that, you know, that that we're having with those negative externalities. So the first negative externality was shrinking, shrinking freedom, you know, all the way through the 1970s and 80s and 90s. And, and then we have the technology, you know, change of the exposure of kids to Instagram and Snapchat and blah, blah, blah.
00:34:56:01 - 00:35:15:08
John Simmerman
And so, you know, we have these hits that keep hitting. And I had Lenore Skenazy on, the author of Free-range kids, and we were talking about her new organization that she has founded with Peter Gray and, Oh, shoot, I'm blanking on his name, the Jonathan Hite. Thank you. John.
00:35:15:12 - 00:35:16:24
Tim Gill
John donvan like, yeah.
00:35:16:25 - 00:35:46:07
John Simmerman
The author of The Anxious Generation. And so the let grow organization that we're, they're trying to, you know, try to again reinstall reinsert, you know, reinstall this concept of like you mentioned it, the kids should be able to get outside. I mean, play outside, get outside, be able to to, you know, not feel like they can't even go down to the end of their driveway.
00:35:46:10 - 00:36:24:20
Alice Ferguson
And I think I know, they do they do raise a really important side of all this, you know, that that that is a kind of fearfulness in the air about children being outside independently. And as a parent, you know, there's also worry about feeling judged if you let you let your children out independently. But I think what's kind of sometimes missing from that debate or that conversation is the fact that, you know, it's not all on parents.
00:36:24:20 - 00:37:07:19
Alice Ferguson
It's not all about parenting choices. It's about the world outside the physical environment. The policy decisions that have resulted in an outside world and, you know, an environment literally outside children's front door that doesn't feel and isn't always safe enough for them. We're not talking. I mean, Tim wrote a book called No Fear, which was about, you know, we can't we can't create a completely risk free environment and nor do we want to, but we we argue, in the paper that we do need to create an environment that's reasonably risk.
00:37:07:21 - 00:37:45:17
Alice Ferguson
You know, that the risk that children are expected to take when they're out and about is a reasonable one. But, you know, they're not at risk of being hit and killed by car rats at their front door. I mean, so, yeah, and I think the whole idea, that parents are solely responsible for their children's safety, health, well-being, happiness, entertainment, everything goes hand in hand with kind of what we've done to children's environment.
00:37:45:20 - 00:38:15:17
Alice Ferguson
And like you say, you know, it's a convenient way to pass the buck, you know, to put responsibility onto parents. And it's no wonder that, you know, in that paradigm, parents have absorbed the idea that to be a good parent means to keep your child safe, either inside or in a big car. You know, the ones that can afford to do that.
00:38:15:20 - 00:38:22:05
Alice Ferguson
And obviously all adding to the problem and, and not benefiting children.
00:38:22:07 - 00:38:47:01
Tim Gill
As well as sort of parent blaming. There's also child blaming and actually, Jonathan and, and or and Peter have done and the let grow NGO did some good, research that shows that if we take the time to ask children and young people, what do you want to do in your spare time? Do you want to hang out with your friends IRL in real life, or do you want to be online?
00:38:47:03 - 00:39:07:14
Tim Gill
That they gave us a very clear answer, as they have for many generations. They want to be able to see their friends, to get around, to be out in the fresh air. And it's, it's is because they can't do that. And, and crucially, because they, they can't have that social contact, which is so important to us as a social species.
00:39:07:17 - 00:39:35:22
Tim Gill
That's the big driver for the explosion in the digital life that, that we all and, and young people in particular, are living is the only place where they can hang out. So that, that, you know, and I think Jonathan does deserve credit for, for opening out that debate about what he calls the kind of, over protection sometimes in the real world and anxieties.
00:39:35:26 - 00:39:54:24
Tim Gill
But, but at the same time is under protection in the, in the digital world. And if we can get if we can get a better offer for children and young people IRL, then a lot of these anxieties about their digital lives will start to dissolve, because actually, it won't be so important.
00:39:54:26 - 00:40:22:18
Alice Ferguson
Yeah. And I think it's important to add to that, that parents also, a lot of parents also desperately want their children to have more freedom to to be outside, to play like they did when they were children. And, you know, feel that they can't for all the reasons we've talked about. So, you know, it's not yeah. It's not necessarily parental choice to, to keep children inside and, and safe.
00:40:22:18 - 00:40:37:20
Alice Ferguson
It's just, you know, and yeah, I think we need to put the responsibility back on to the people that make decisions about, our environments and our and our streets.
00:40:37:22 - 00:41:05:20
John Simmerman
And, and we're going to pop over to, the report here and we'll just really quickly the text is going to be too small for for the audience, I think, but we'll just be able to to hit two different things here. The highlights from the ten good reasons. And then the, the child lens checklist. But before we do that, I just want to to to again re-emphasize that it's not like this is impossible.
00:41:05:22 - 00:41:33:17
John Simmerman
We can do this. Places like, Orford Road there in Walthamstow is an example of if we change the built environment, kids and parents naturally fill that void. And, you know, and I like to emphasize that it's not just the hardware, it is the built environment. It is the hardware. I call them, hardware activity assets. We're creating a safe, inviting street.
00:41:33:17 - 00:42:08:20
John Simmerman
We're creating protected and separated bike facilities. We're creating safe pedestrian facilities. Those are hardware. We can put a pin in a map and say, hey, it's over there. That delightful park is right here on the map. The software activity assets are the policies and the programs and the engagement activities and taking a look and saying, well, gee, do we have laws in place that make it quote unquote, illegal for kids to even be out exploring on their own, like in too many cities around the globe exists?
00:42:08:22 - 00:42:35:24
John Simmerman
And so I like to emphasize the fact that it's the hardware, it's the software, and it's also this approach. But humans being humans, if there is a safe, inviting, beautiful, welcoming environment, we tend to like fill that up with excitement and glee. And and that's what was so delightful about spending time on Orford Road. Was that it was just organically there.
00:42:36:01 - 00:42:40:26
John Simmerman
Now, it took a while, right, Tim, how many years has that been in place?
00:42:40:29 - 00:43:01:12
Tim Gill
Yeah, I think that's been in place for for about ten years now. And it's important to say as well as you know, John, is it's part of a wider neighborhood. So what's one of the great things about the Mini Holland project is that it wasn't just, you know, one street, one light house. It's a whole neighborhood and it's demonstrably successful.
00:43:01:12 - 00:43:18:07
Tim Gill
I'd like to know more about the impact on children. Actually, we still don't know enough about that, but it's pretty clear, you know, accident rates are down, active travel is up, car ownership rates are down, Street crime is down. That those figures, you know, paint a pretty clear picture.
00:43:18:09 - 00:43:44:20
John Simmerman
Empirically, we can tell just by hanging out there, Tim, that there's a level of anxiety that has gone down. The parents are carrying on a conversation as their kids are playing in the street. And so, yeah, maybe we haven't, you know, that's observational. We can see that this is happening. It's it's somewhat difficult to actually measure that scientifically.
00:43:44:23 - 00:43:50:18
John Simmerman
But I would I would lead one to believe that. Hey, I think there's some pretty good, positive things coming out of that.
00:43:50:18 - 00:44:15:00
Tim Gill
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's also another an aspect of the story at in, in the Waltham Forest, maybe home is that the people who were leading that back in the day, now, you know, where there was huge battles. I mean, there were the most enormous protests and, you know, bizarre, people saying that the the people were going to die because of, you know,
00:44:15:03 - 00:44:20:08
Alice Ferguson
Ambulances because, like, you know, it wasn't like carrying us through the streets.
00:44:20:08 - 00:44:38:18
Tim Gill
So, so now you will get that pushback. But but one of the things that some of the people who were involved in the early work with, with many of them now say, is if we talk more about children and if we talk with children, brought children's voices into the conversation more, we think we would have had less of that pushback.
00:44:38:20 - 00:44:57:21
Tim Gill
I don't think people were saying we get no pushback, but that there would have been less. And I think some of the changes might have going to go back to Alex's point. Some of the some of the design changes might have been a bit different as well. But having said that, it's it's an amazing scheme. And just in terms of hardware and software.
00:44:57:21 - 00:45:22:22
Tim Gill
So I like to make the point, you know, if you're thinking about your computer, well, you can get your computer doing a better job up to a point by changing the software. But if the hardware is basically obsolete and and some subpar, then if your hardware is rubbish, you can't fix it beyond a certain point. The software, you need the hardware to be right.
00:45:22:22 - 00:45:49:17
Tim Gill
And it's the same with neighborhoods and streets. If you don't get the physical, design and those, those kind of human elements that allow for play and social life and the time, the car, if you don't get those in place, you're not going to fix it with laws or with programing. Beyond that, a relatively minor degree.
00:45:49:19 - 00:46:12:28
Alice Ferguson
And you're certainly not going to get people out of their cars by, you know, telling them that the the best way of walking. And so, you know, we know we know that doesn't work, don't we? You know, it's you've got to make it easier for people. You got to make it more more appealing. You've got to make it the better option.
00:46:13:01 - 00:46:48:22
Alice Ferguson
And it's you know, the same with, with children and play trees really show a kind of what's possible. Because Play Street is essentially just a normal street with the traffic taken away, there's nothing special about it. There's nothing organized or added, but just that simple thing of taking away the traffic danger. Children do come flooding out and play really actively and really, really naturally like it.
00:46:48:23 - 00:47:22:25
Alice Ferguson
It's like it just shows there's this kind of latent desire for, for children to kind of come together in that way. And all the benefits that, you know, we have got really good evaluation of the impact of play streets for children, for communities, even for like, shifting attitudes about active travel. That could all be extrapolated and, applied to places that have made more permanent changes, like the Mini Holland.
00:47:22:25 - 00:47:25:06
Alice Ferguson
So yeah.
00:47:25:09 - 00:47:55:19
John Simmerman
I had Mara Mincer on from the, Grow Boulder, program in Boulder, Colorado, and her organization is actively trying to engage the youth there in Boulder, Colorado to get their perspective. And we've mentioned that a several times, already today. And so I want to make sure that, you know, people understand that, yes. When we talk about a child lens on the street, we're thinking about that from the lens.
00:47:55:19 - 00:48:10:07
John Simmerman
Their, their view of it as well. And we're taking the time to ask them about it. What walk through the ten good reasons for a child lens very quickly. You know, for folks. And I've zoomed out okay.
00:48:10:07 - 00:48:20:20
Alice Ferguson
Well, we talked about the first one, which is, you know, that there is in the UK, and in and in the States. And I think in a lot of developing developed countries.
00:48:20:23 - 00:48:34:21
John Simmerman
I think, Alice, we can say anywhere, any, anywhere where the car has taken over. I just got back from New Zealand two weeks. They're, they're one of the most car dependent nations in the world. So I think we globally we can say children's health is in crisis. Yeah.
00:48:34:23 - 00:49:09:07
Alice Ferguson
Children's health is in crisis. And you know, a really easy, relatively easy way to turn that around would be to let them be outside and just be more active every day. We argue in the paper that children are, the most impacted by car dominant planning of streets and for, for a lot of different reasons. That might be arguable, but we think there are there are good reasons to, to make that case.
00:49:09:10 - 00:49:45:01
Alice Ferguson
And also that children are, the least considered group. So in the UK, children are not even at an equality. You know, we've got an equality law. That means every single decision at local authority level has to consider the impact on different equality groups, disabled people, women, older people. But children don't fall under that. So they're just often routinely not thought about at all, let alone prioritized.
00:49:45:04 - 00:50:05:19
Alice Ferguson
Then the fourth reason is that, you know, we talk a lot about active travel, walking and cycling and it's important to remember that for children, walking and cycling is the only way that they can be independently mobile. They can't drive, you know, so that option isn't even available to them.
00:50:05:21 - 00:50:20:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. I like the way this is framed and walking and wheeling, versus walking and cycling in the sense that, you know, maybe the wheeling device that they choose to use is a skateboard or a push scooter or something like that. So yeah.
00:50:20:23 - 00:50:47:25
Alice Ferguson
Yeah. Or a wheelchair, but. Yeah. Or with children. Yeah. Get around and lots of playful ways. And. Yeah. And then so the fifth reason is that if we create streets that work for children of all those different abilities and different backgrounds, they will work for everybody. You know, it's it's that, Enrique Pena Llosa, the former mayor of Bogota.
00:50:47:27 - 00:50:56:12
Alice Ferguson
And I'm sure other people have said similar things, but you know that if we create a city that works for children, it works for everyone.
00:50:56:12 - 00:51:33:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. The terminology I like to use on the Active Towns channel in the Active Towns movement is that we're trying to create safe and inviting and beautiful and engaging environments that, you know, are engaging for all ages and all abilities. And so this point is huge. If it works for children, it's going to work for everybody else. Tim, you and I had talked about the fact that what's different about like, say, the elderly or adults that might be, disabled is that kids voices aren't heard as much.
00:51:33:20 - 00:52:05:25
John Simmerman
I think you and I talked about, in our last episode is the fact that they can't vote. It's not like, you know, the children, you know, and that's even more important in Mara and I talked about this with that engagement of the youth that's happening in the Grow Bolder program, of of getting that feedback from the kids because, again, they, they, they can't influence the ballot box until they reach that magical voting age, whatever that happens to be in, in their particular country.
00:52:06:00 - 00:52:40:22
Tim Gill
Well, it's just one of the points later on in this ten good reasons that the children are always articulate about and have for decades been clear about what they want and what they like and what they don't like in neighborhoods. About time, I think we listened to them, and to that. Also, just to add in a more kind of informal, everyday sense, it's part of a healthy society that the children are seen and heard, the children are playing their full part as citizens of human societies.
00:52:40:22 - 00:53:02:17
Tim Gill
And if if you went to a place and you didn't see any children, I hope you do think that there's something weird here. Well, where are they? What's going on? And yet that that's, We're also teachers. Come back to the point about systems. We made the point in the report, you know, nobody nobody sat down with. All right, we're going to eliminate children from the streets.
00:53:02:17 - 00:53:37:22
Tim Gill
We going to decide to create environments where large numbers are killed and even more are left inactive and isolated. These are side effects of the systems that we need to fix. And so that's why we we keep coming back to this sort of need for, for a new mindset that makes visible and and opens up on how we fix these systems, and how we can see children and a child lens as the most compelling way to do that.
00:53:37:25 - 00:54:12:03
Alice Ferguson
Yeah, yeah. I was just going to add to the the seen and heard point is, there's like a vicious circle at the moment, which, you know, has been set in play for decades, where the the more children are removed from streets, from their communities, from being seen and heard, the less they're considered by policymakers, by car drivers, you know, and the more that space then becomes hostile for children.
00:54:12:05 - 00:54:43:17
Alice Ferguson
So, you know, what we need is to reverse that. And, you know, we see play Street movement as part of that. It's part of putting children back into that space, making them seen and heard and making sure that they are thought about, you know, that they are considered. And the other point about children's voices is not just about giving children a voice and making sure that their heard is acting on what they tell us, acting on what they say they want.
00:54:43:17 - 00:55:08:28
Alice Ferguson
Because both Tim and I have been in a lot of events and meetings and things with children, speaking really strongly and articulately and saying, you know, we want to be out walking, cycling, playing, and all the adults in the room are kind of nodding away, smiling politely and saying, yeah, yeah, nothing actually changes as a result.
00:55:08:28 - 00:55:17:18
Alice Ferguson
The policy changes don't happen. So that is what we're saying is, you know, it's time for that to change.
00:55:17:20 - 00:55:40:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Point nine of course is, is that children have been asking for change for decades. One of the things that that came to mind when earlier we were talking and we were saying, well, if we actually asked children, children would say that they would like to, you know, spend more time in real IRL, in real life with their friends.
00:55:40:06 - 00:56:07:27
John Simmerman
Although I will point out that fish being fish and living in water, they not having an understanding of of what water is, some of these children might not even know. And that's one of the reasons why play streets and open streets programs these types of initiatives. Again, the software activity assets to try to demonstrate pilot projects to get things out there in the real world so that they can experience it.
00:56:07:29 - 00:56:32:15
John Simmerman
Because if a kid has been cloistered, literally been cloistered indoors, and only had access to their digital world and their phone, they may not even know what they're missing. And so if you ask them what they want, they may say they want, you know, the most recent iPhone, you know, they you know, and we do see the data saying that that's the most cherished thing that they have is their phone.
00:56:32:17 - 00:57:07:00
John Simmerman
And so we have to understand that there's a lot of nuance to this. We can't expect people to embrace this change in the built environment if they have no idea what this change looks and feels like, and they've never experienced it. It's transforming our built environment like the transformation that took place over, you know, a decade ago there in Waltham Forest, can induce a lot of resistance, can induce a lot of fear of what this change is going to mean.
00:57:07:02 - 00:57:33:00
John Simmerman
And so, we have to be kind of clear eyed at understanding this. One of the things I wanted to also mention, too, is that as I'm going through these, these ten different points, the other thing is actually seeing the world through a lens of somebody who's only tall. It's like, you know, it's just it's just like the view of the world is so much different.
00:57:33:03 - 00:57:53:19
John Simmerman
If you are an adult and you get into a wheelchair and see the world at that same level, that a person in a wheelchair sees it, same with a child. If you actually see physically lens, the lens that they see the world through is different and you're like, oh wow, this really is kind of a hostile environment for that.
00:57:53:19 - 00:58:26:27
Alice Ferguson
But I mean, one, one specific way in which it's become even more hostile to children in the last ten years is there's the size of cause, you know, the, the scale of cars, increasing. And we have a section on that, in the report, you know, just how how child unfriendly can you get to build vehicles where literally the driver can't see a child in front or behind?
00:58:27:00 - 00:58:57:29
Alice Ferguson
There's this horrific statistics about, in the States, how many children, killed in their own front driveway by often by a parent who just doesn't see them. And there's research as well from, from the UK quite recently about the much greater, risk of, of children dying if they are hit by one of these vehicles.
00:58:58:01 - 00:59:08:00
John Simmerman
So and I'll point out, Alice, that the, the visual that's on screen right now, these aren't even big, big vehicles compared to American standards. I mean.
00:59:08:02 - 00:59:08:24
Alice Ferguson
They're they're.
00:59:08:24 - 00:59:10:09
John Simmerman
Monsters. Yes.
00:59:10:17 - 00:59:19:20
Alice Ferguson
Yeah. No, we're bracing ourselves for the American monsters. I mean, they want to come here and we need to fight them off.
00:59:19:22 - 00:59:25:20
John Simmerman
They want to come. This. That sounds sounds like the invasion.
00:59:25:22 - 00:59:28:21
Alice Ferguson
Feels like that,
00:59:28:24 - 00:59:47:26
John Simmerman
In, in. And I think there's an image. I hear it is. This is the famous image from, my good friend, Tom flood. I'll have Tom and Grant in us and Brant, to there in on the, the channel next week and will be, talking about their new initiative, the Urban Truth Collective.
00:59:47:28 - 01:00:20:18
John Simmerman
And, you know, this is this kind of what we're talking about, you know, being able to see the world through the lens of a child. Imagine what the child is feeling and experiencing and seeing in this approach. This is what we've done to our children, is we've allowed our environment to be literally taken over by monster vehicles and then said, oh, and by the way, yeah, for you cyclists, cyclists and scare quotes, you can have this little shoulder over here.
01:00:20:22 - 01:00:21:14
John Simmerman
Good luck.
01:00:21:16 - 01:00:34:23
Alice Ferguson
Yeah, Tom's done an amazing job of making this visible and yeah, I mean, I'm so glad he he appeared in the world that we're in.
01:00:34:26 - 01:00:58:13
Tim Gill
It's also just, you know, there are some really good resources out there that actually operationalize this, this idea of seeing streets from a child's level. I'm for, for my scenes. I work with over 95. The family Foundation program that invites adults to see cities from a height of 95cm, really quite low, the average height of a three year old.
01:00:58:19 - 01:01:20:13
Tim Gill
And they have produced these sort of kits that kind of reverse periscopes. So you, you look through into periscope and, and then you see the view from that height. They've even developed a quite a neat, more vintage reality kit, you know, where you can put on a headset and see a, a before and after experience of a, of a streetscape.
01:01:20:15 - 01:01:34:08
Tim Gill
So, you know, the, the, the professionals are out there who were wanting to try to, make real this idea of the child lens and, and bring it into their work. There are resources that can help you do that.
01:01:34:10 - 01:01:58:24
John Simmerman
Yeah. Alice, you mentioned I got to give, Tom a little bit of a shout out here. You just mentioned, him and the wonderful work that he is doing. Again, that's the Ravello creative. Is his his website. That's his child from a few years ago. Yeah. These are the, the, the the radical urbanists that are out there.
01:01:58:24 - 01:02:30:03
John Simmerman
Active mobility or urban is how how dare we let them take over our our public realm and again, really, really good stuff. And, folks, if you're not familiar with, with Tom's work, make sure you give him a follow. What haven't we talked about yet that really the audience needs to understand about this report, the challenge that we have, anything that we haven't yet covered that we really need to mention.
01:02:30:05 - 01:03:15:02
Tim Gill
I mean, I think we we do, we do flag up some cities and some initiatives that have gone further than most. I mean, Paris, Paris is the one that everyone's still talking about. And I, I was, you know, struck by the fact that we've just had the Paris elections. Was it three days ago where the, the, the the guy who's taken on the mantle and the legacy of and it all goes well, I was lucky enough to meet last year in your country, John Lee, that he won that election on a platform of making of continuing to make that city more livable and having an explicit focus on children with the school streets programs.
01:03:15:05 - 01:03:53:08
Tim Gill
Alice and I both lucky enough to have visited Vienna, where I think the really impressive big set piece in the whole new city quarter's been developed around, not not prioritizing cars, but prioritizing children, prioritizing women. And again, there's strong links there, of course, because women, typically in many families have the role of, of, of, of, you know, overseeing their children's mobility and free time, as well as grappling with, with being a woman in a, in a city that can be hostile.
01:03:53:10 - 01:04:30:10
Tim Gill
So these are not just one of small scale demonstration projects. These are serious long term, changes in how the city works and feels and and and is and that they have, I think, achieved what they have in part by confronting this car centric worldview and really challenging. I mean, and it all goes very clear. She had to fight, you know, she she has the scars from the the fight she had with, the vested interest that was stopping her from, from turning Paris around.
01:04:30:12 - 01:05:07:26
Tim Gill
But what I now means is that other cities can build on their success. They can point to these, these evidently, and sort of really celebratory places and it'll be a little bit easier and a little bit easier, but we still feel, you know, this all needs to accelerate because as every, every generation of children, that doesn't get to grow up in a neighborhood that's designed and recognizes their needs and their health, that's another generation of children who are going to carry their shoe like that scar with them for life.
01:05:07:28 - 01:05:19:21
Tim Gill
And that sounds dramatic, but but that, that's that's what the stats, the statistics are telling us that we're not turning this around, and now is the time when we have to get serious about it.
01:05:19:24 - 01:05:55:15
John Simmerman
Paris is such a great example, right? I mean, Paris is such a great example in the sense that, yes, we just had this this, election. And we see the likelihood that we'll see a continuation of these streets are for people movement. The litmus test, from my perspective, is when I'm filming out there on the streets, I'm seeing more women and children, you know, riding bikes and taking on the streets and and doing, going about their daily, you know, chores and, and, you know, utilitarian trips and playing Alice.
01:05:55:15 - 01:06:01:21
John Simmerman
What about that? I mean, are children, women and children the litmus test of us getting it right?
01:06:01:23 - 01:06:38:24
Alice Ferguson
Yeah, I mean, I yeah, I don't know so much about women now. You know, we see a lot of, a lot of dads who are also carers. So but I think certainly seeing children out in public spaces, is a litmus test. I mean, you just know, don't you? When you go somewhere and you see kids running around without fear, without stress, without a parent shouting after them to stop because because, you know, you know, that's a good place to grow up and to be.
01:06:38:26 - 01:07:20:20
Alice Ferguson
Yeah. So I think the only other thing I would add, I mean, we talked about it a bit, but just the the issue about children's independence, you know, the independent mobility, because I feel, you know, I've sort of worked around, sort of safer streets, sustainable transport world for quite a long time. And I've really seen a shift away from talking about children being able to independently travel to school or to other places to just talking about active travel, and more of a focus on families walking and cycling together.
01:07:20:23 - 01:08:06:09
Alice Ferguson
Which if you know, it's great to and is important too, but I think we mustn't kind of let go of the idea that from the age of 8 or 9, let's say, children should be able to start to, you know, be independently and we need to kind of get back to that. That idea and that being a focus and an aim of, how we build our streets and our cities because they need that, you know, if they're not able to be out independently until they're 11 or 12, they've missed out on so much in terms of development and experience.
01:08:06:09 - 01:08:42:16
Alice Ferguson
And, and actually, in some ways, I think there's evidence that there's added danger involved with, with children not getting that freedom and independence until they go to secondary school, you know, suddenly they're they're exposed to dangers that they've not had a chance to, to understand. So, yeah, so I think we need to get back to aiming for but I, 8 or 9 year old to be out and about independently and to build a world that allows them to do that safely.
01:08:42:19 - 01:09:10:16
John Simmerman
And we're pausing on, the examples of some of the case studies and some of the success stories within the report. And again, thank you both for, for doing this today. Thank you so much for putting together this report, Alice. Why don't you talk a little bit? I'll have you sort of take us out here talking a little bit about, you know, what this report represents for you and for this organization?
01:09:10:16 - 01:09:13:17
John Simmerman
Because I think there's a change afoot, correct?
01:09:13:19 - 01:09:28:20
Alice Ferguson
Yeah. After 17 years since the first place street on my my own streets here. We're ending playing out as an organization. This week.
01:09:28:22 - 01:09:31:29
John Simmerman
So this is the grand finale.
01:09:32:01 - 01:10:12:04
Alice Ferguson
Now, the last thing. Yeah, it's a really, positive kind of planned ending, and it's partly because we feel like, you know, we've built this movement. It's gone international. The play street is happening in Japan and Australia. New Zealand. And so the play Street idea has kind of taken off. And it's not it doesn't need us as an organization in the same way the website is being rebuilt as a lasting resource that anyone can go to and find out how to do a play street or support, play streets.
01:10:12:06 - 01:10:25:02
John Simmerman
And by the way, folks right here in the middle where it says our report, that's an active link. So if you click on report there, it'll take you right to the length of the report that we've been discussing today. Okay.
01:10:25:04 - 01:11:03:05
Alice Ferguson
Yeah. And then putting out this report is it's kind of feels like an important part of our legacy. In terms of the bigger picture, policy changes that we want to see. And we had a so final conference last week, in-person, 150 people, so some international visitors, but mostly from the UK. And it was really representative of the breadth of this movement who all converge on caring about children's rights in the built environment and, and children's freedom.
01:11:03:07 - 01:11:32:11
Alice Ferguson
So we have people there from planning, architecture, you know, both environment side of things, but also child rights, also public health, active travel, community cohesion. You know, that was a it was a whole, community in the wider sense of the word of people coming together with this shared interest. And we felt very reassured that this movement will continue without playing a CIC.
01:11:32:11 - 01:11:39:20
Alice Ferguson
The organization, and I will very much personally still be continuing to speak out about these, these issues.
01:11:39:22 - 01:11:48:15
John Simmerman
Are you prepared to say what's next for you or are you, going off into retirement, not retirement?
01:11:48:18 - 01:11:52:14
Alice Ferguson
Okay. Breather. Okay. We'll see. What what lands.
01:11:52:17 - 01:11:52:25
Tim Gill
Yeah.
01:11:52:25 - 01:12:04:29
John Simmerman
Okay. Well, you and I are connected out on LinkedIn, so I'm sure that I will see when you are ready to announce what's next. Tim, what's next for you?
01:12:05:01 - 01:12:17:17
Tim Gill
Yeah, well, I mean, I've got a few bits of travel lined up. In fact, just today I had about the possibility I'll be coming over to the of a, in October. I've still to be confirmed, but but that. Okay, but.
01:12:17:18 - 01:12:24:15
John Simmerman
Just so you know, just so you know, Tim, October is a wonderful time to visit Hawaii. So come visit me on the big island.
01:12:24:16 - 01:12:47:00
Tim Gill
Yeah, I think that that would be a bit of a dogleg, I must confess, from, but, I mean, I, you know, I, I, I think, and Alice noticed that the there's still a story to be fleshed out about all of this, and maybe I did some ideas around another book for me, and maybe it this or this will be a sentence.
01:12:47:06 - 01:13:12:14
Tim Gill
I think, you know, people said nice things about about, the playground. It's it's put child friendly planning design on the map a lot along with the work of others and and other agencies. So I think this takes I think we, I think we both take encouragement from this is that the, the community of practice and the community of care around children in the built environment is growing fast.
01:13:12:17 - 01:13:33:18
Tim Gill
It's just it's got so much from the skin and, and so in order for it to have the impact that it really needs to have, we need to still do much more, to. So, so, yeah, I'll put it on the line. I want to write another book. I wanted to be on kids and cars and don't hold your breath, but I hope it will happen.
01:13:33:20 - 01:13:40:18
Alice Ferguson
Fantastic. And in the meantime, we'll be plugging this hard. Yes. Everywhere report everywhere we can.
01:13:40:20 - 01:13:48:26
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah. Tim and Alice, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast. This has been so much fun and informative.
01:13:48:26 - 01:13:50:20
Alice Ferguson
Thanks so much, John.
01:13:50:23 - 01:13:52:01
Tim Gill
Thanks, John. It's been great.
01:13:52:08 - 01:14:07:24
John Simmerman
Hey everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in and hope you enjoyed this episode with Tim and Alice. And if you did, please hit give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribed to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and be sure to ring that notification bell.
01:14:08:01 - 01:14:24:20
John Simmerman
And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Hey, super easy to do and just click the join button right here on YouTube. You can also leave a YouTube super thanks! Or you can navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on that support tab at the top of the page.
01:14:24:20 - 01:14:47:10
John Simmerman
And there's several different options, including becoming a Patreon supporter. My patrons do get early and ad free access to all this video content, and you can also make a donation to the nonprofit or buy me a coffee again. Every little bit helps and is very much appreciated. Thank you all so much for tuning in today. And again, I have to send a huge shout out to all my Active Towns ambassadors.
01:14:47:10 - 01:15:00:16
John Simmerman
Again, I simply could not produce this content without your support. Mahalo, Laura, thank you so very much. Well, until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers and aloha!