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Explore the latest education business trends, entrepreneurship, and school leadership insights with us. We bring you expert discussions on district leadership, edtech innovation, education policy insights, and K-12 education advancements. Join us for valuable perspectives on edtech trends, startup founders in education, and strategies for effective school operations and relationship building.
Hosted by Dr. Rick Fernandez, Jacob Kantor, Jeff Piontek, Ryan Patenaude, Matthew Millstein, and powered by Old Soul.
Rick Fernandez [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to The Boys. We've got an emergency pod coming at you. The Department of Ed, some big rulings out, some guidance coming down. Jacob, Ryan, and Matthew are joining me today, and we're gonna dive right in with the latest news. Uh, what I'd like to do is get perspective from you guys based on what you're hearing from your founders, your partners, and your clients. Jacob, let me come to you to give us an overview of that guidance from the Department of Ed.
Jacob Kantor [00:00:26]:
Yeah, so thanks for that. Let me give you kind of the skinny on all things, right? And I'm summarizing the 6 pages of documents to the highlights, right? So the DOE yesterday on the 20th released this Dear Colleague letter. The Dear Colleague letter was from one of the DOE undersecretaries. She's lovely, awesome. Met her many times. But I think some of the highlights, right? So for the edtech field that we play in, right? Like, what does your product solve for? Which is kind of a common sense thing that, like, I would hope every edtech solution provider would have in their first 2 minutes of talking to somebody, but not always the case. When should it be used, right? We have a lot of conversations around screen time and technology in the classroom. So, like, when is it appropriate to use your solution versus when a teacher should be teaching, right? Like, so when should it be used? For whom it should be used, right? Are there certain grades that your tool is for? Is it a high school product and only 9th through 12th graders should be using it and no kids under K-2, 1, whatever should be using it, right? So some of that is a direct correlation to like LAUSD, right? There's no screens for kinder, 1st grade.
Jacob Kantor [00:01:48]:
And, I think at 2nd grade, it's a little bit of a mix of if they're doing testing or whatnot. Next one, how long should it be used for? And, some of these things like, Ryan, you know this, with high-dosage tutoring or whatever solution, even if we want to give a shout to the iReady stuff, is they get it for, I don't know, I think it's 15 minutes a day every single day is what my first grader was getting it for, and then the test is 18 minutes across 4 days or something like that. So, very perspective on how long should it be used for. And then, the biggest thing and the biggest call-out, and I wanted to start with those because those are the basics of the companies we talk to, those should be buttoned up. But what evidence is there, right? Where is the evidence that this actually works? Do you have studies? You are making claims as an organization that you solve for math gains and you've seen XYZ, like, is that your marketing and a marketing person that put together, or is that from the districts you serve and the data you're seeing? And can you call somebody at that district and say, hey, I actually need you to like give me a solid testimonial, but also can we use your data to go out there and talk about this? And there's great companies that are doing that like every single day of the week, But there's also some that are making massive claims around what they're good at with no real data, right? And I'm sure the 4 of us have a ton of LinkedIn messages from orgs that say, hey, this is what we're doing. We've seen crazy traction. Everybody loves it. Everyone I've showed it to.
Jacob Kantor [00:03:34]:
That is very different, right? Like, Rick, you know, this is like showing your brother who's a teacher Or your cousin who is an assistant sup in a different state. I find that sometimes they are not the most critical because they are very close to it, right? And that's why a lot of the times I feel like the 4 of us get the call to be asked about, is this something that would work for the people? Is this something people are talking about? And sometimes the answer is, I don't know. Like, this doesn't come up often. we would have to actually go talk to people to see if this is— it could be a thing. People just might not bring that problem set to me. So I think overall, like, as I saw this, right, I saw this the night before. I think I sent it to you guys the night before. Shout out Ben Cornell at Tech Insiders WhatsApp group.
Jacob Kantor [00:04:27]:
Subscribe. It's worth the money. But like, as I read through this, I just said, hey, I would think that this was all common sense for any district to be asking of vendors. As I was thinking about our conversation today, and I knew we were going to be recording, one of the things that kind of kept pressing in my mind is not all district buyers are created equal. You got the Patricks of the world out there. He was a CTO, he was an assistant sup, he was also a teacher. Now he is a superintendent. He works closely with the foundation.
Jacob Kantor [00:05:02]:
He is a very skilled, smart buyer.
Rick Fernandez [00:05:04]:
Yeah.
Jacob Kantor [00:05:04]:
that can look at something and be like, this doesn't make sense. Don't talk to them. Move on. Other people are wooed by shiny tools or whatever sales strategy, the neighboring district using a tool without evidence, or there was an announcement and somebody forwarded an announcement of a new partnership. And mind you, I don't mind all of those sales strategies, right? I use some of those sales strategies as well. But If the buyer at the district is not well-versed at like these 5 things around like asking these questions, like this is why this guidance is really important, right? So if all of the district leaders that we talk to regularly and the CBOs and the CFOs and the CIOs and CTOs and even superintendents and their cabinets, if they have common language that now they can go ask all of the vendors that are pitching them. I think overall that's a great thing because it will level set everybody, right? Like the tools that are crushing it that might not have the craziest marketing people or the marketing budgets, but they're out there doing the work every day, moving the needle for kids. If they could prove that this works, that is way better than like an organization that's dumping $25 million into marketing.
Jacob Kantor [00:06:30]:
Saying that they are the best.
Matthew Millstein [00:06:31]:
I want to pick up on that, Jacob. So I had a few conversations with founders yesterday that read the letter and their interpretation, to be quite honest, is a level of fear surrounding the authority RCTs will have moving forward. And the, you know, Ryan, we were talking about this and I'll throw it to you after I finish this thought. The inequity that can be created between, you know, being an RCT is going to take longer than a month. It's going to take longer than a full procurement cycle. So the question becomes for these innovative startups, what about them? Are they delaying going to market because they need to get the RCT in place first? Is this a chicken or the egg scenario? And I think there's a lot of confusion around just, again, that authority RCTs may have in school districts. Ryan, would love for you to share with listeners some of your thoughts.
Ryan Patenaude [00:07:33]:
Matthew, that's a great point. I think for me, if you, if a company believes that the most important thing that they need to do is get a randomized control trial, I think that that organization is more than likely going to be unsuccessful. And why do I say that? I say that because an RCT in the way that it's currently designed, and I think, Rick, you've been in the seat before, causation, right, on products is very hard to accomplish and by nature has to have a control group and a group of students not getting the services. And so, you know, my, like, my big 3 for RP Impact and just my beliefs in K-12 education is that you need to have deep relationships. You need to do great work to create references, implementation models that work, results that matter, and then research. And so when we built FEV Tutor, we spent all of our time out in the field talking to and asking questions to school district leaders, to principals, to teachers, to the people doing the work in the districts. And then attuning and aligning our programs and products and evolving them over the course of time to do anything we can to help students, right? And as we did that work, the follow-through point to that was data that we had to do research on, right? So to me, it's the other way around. And I think what I don't want to have happen with guidance like this, and not to say that it says this in here, but what I don't want founders and companies to feel like is that they should be striving to get an RCT because ultimately you can pay for that.
Rick Fernandez [00:09:16]:
And so what I can, what I've noticed, and Jacob, maybe you have too, is people who have a lot of money and a lot of investment, they can just run around and do a bunch of RCTs. And what that can do is it can cause confusion. It can cause like false, not false data, but it, you get tons and tons of RCTs done and then you wonder like, Were there any organically built partnerships where people figured out along the way? Uh, we, FEV Tutor, was a Level 2 ESSA evidence-based intervention, Matt, and that's a quasi-experimental study. And like I said before, um, and then Rick, you have a, a buyer-seek persona on this, and I think a really good, uh, a really good, um, line of thinking on it. But ultimately, Matt, for me, I would encourage any founder or even any operator to go in and authentically do the work, have outcomes as a North Star. And when you show up with a great implementation model consistently over the course of time, the research will follow because you should have enough there to be able to create some evidence, right? Um, and so that's my view. And so hanging everything on an RCT for me is potentially stalling innovation and giving someone the wrong goal to aspire to. That's just my thought.
Rick Fernandez [00:10:34]:
Rick, what are you thinking about right now?
Rick Fernandez [00:10:37]:
Yeah, I mean, in general, kind of what, you know, after Jacob shared the overview and I had a chance to read some of the details, it doesn't feel like it's an earth-shattering declaration by any means. I mean, some of those points, like Jacob said, are common sense, right? Like if my child comes and borrows $50, there's probably going to be a lot of questions of what are you going to do with it? Why do you need it? What's— why do I have to give it to you? Um, do I get change back? Right? Like, well, I— if with, with any type of investment, because she's spending my money. So in the district level, you're spending taxpayers' dollars. And if you're not asking those questions, I, I, at this day and age, I, I gotta have— I have my own questions to be asking you. Right? So I don't— that should be boilerplate type of material. And then I don't put a great deal of stock in randomized control for the simple fact that if you're trying to position that as causation, then I would tell you that you're absolutely wrong and there is no causation unless you get to clinical trials. And even that is extremely difficult. And before the classroom is anything ever touches the classroom, there's all of these things that have to go right for it to be a successful implementation, to even see if the solution's good enough to do what it's supposed to do, right? So there's the carve-out of time, there's the master schedule, there's my own dynamics with how I run my school.
Rick Fernandez [00:12:08]:
Do you have all these pep rallies? Because every little bit that changes up the day, changes up the cadence, changes up the schedule confounds a systematic approach to anything, whether it be tutoring, you know, PLC work, whatever it is. All of the variables matter. Absenteeism for students, like all of that stuff. So I, I don't, I don't put a lot of stock in, in touting that. I'm not saying it's bad or good. I'm saying if I'm looking at it as a buyer, that's not the white paper RC. I'm not— no, let's look at some brain science. Let's look at Um, where have you seen success? And how do I— can I— if somebody had great success out of it and I call them, not only I'm going to ask their opinion, but I'm going to see, can I mimic how they implement it? Because if I can't, if they could dedicate an hour to it or 90 minutes to it every day or twice a week or whatever, and I can't, then I don't know that I want to drop $500 grand on, on, on a program or, or, or a solution, right? So, I, I, I don't think it's a— I think it's the state's got the power.
Rick Fernandez [00:13:13]:
I think the relationships are powerful. I think you need to use the, you know, science of learning, whether it be reading, math, and just the science of habits, whether it be the staff, the kids, and the structure that you put in place for growth, right? Because at the baseline, if none of that is thought about, you could be the best product, the best diet, the best weightlifting regime, the best whatever. And it won't matter because it won't have the effect because it never had the chance to have the effect that you wanted to have. So, I mean, for whatever that's worth, I definitely would tell founders, you don't, don't stop innovating. Um, don't stop, you know, figuring out what's going to work in the best, uh, way for kids and for, for adults. And because this, this whole era that we're in is, should be all about innovation and, and things, things are chaotic, but they should be in a good, a good way chaotic because School has been really dumped on its head in the last 5 years, like really since COVID but really now with everything going on, like this is an opportunity. And for all of the kids out there that traditional school didn't work for you or this didn't work for you, like, well, there's plenty of those kids out there. So keep the innovation up, keep the partnerships up.
Rick Fernandez [00:14:25]:
Yes, look at the science, but you got to figure out Can I do this long enough for, to help a student learn? And that one student's experience is probably not, not going to be exactly like his neighbor's experience and know that and adjust and adapt and move on to try to build the best thing that you can for school. So that's just, you know, I don't think it's a big deal, to be honest with you. And the states are still going to have the power to be able to do what they want to do.
Matthew Millstein [00:14:50]:
In my opinion, I might be opening a can of worms here, but there were 2 other topics in the letter. that I think is interesting to discuss. First, it was brought up about screen time, and Kirsten was talking about appears to be the wrong conversation, and it shouldn't just be about the amount of time students have on screens, but really getting into what led further in the letter into everything surrounding evidence. Sticking there for a moment, I don't know about you guys, but I'm hearing a lot from founders just concerned about screen time and saying that that's like now become one of the biggest objections they're getting is districts are saying, well, we don't want our kids to have even more screen time. Any thoughts around that?
Rick Fernandez [00:15:34]:
Can I jump in on that one? Because I'm hearing that everywhere too.
Rick Fernandez [00:15:38]:
Yes.
Rick Fernandez [00:15:38]:
Yes. With school boards from around the state of Texas as well as national. I don't see the difference between screen time and between snack time and every other thing that has to be in moderation.
Matthew Millstein [00:15:51]:
Right?
Rick Fernandez [00:15:52]:
Like, if you work out too much, you tear your muscles and you can't repair them. If you watch too much TV, you know, like my grandparents told me, I go blind, right?
Matthew Millstein [00:16:01]:
There you go.
Rick Fernandez [00:16:01]:
It's gotta be— it's all— what are we talking about? It's moderation. Nobody wants their kids in front of a screen for 8 hours straight a day, every day of the week. Of course not, right? Of course not. But what I also don't want is I don't want my kids abstaining from technology knowing that their whole career path is probably going to be predicated on how well they can navigate artificial intelligence and new technologies and innovate and have kind of an entrepreneurial mindset. So, if you slam the brakes on because it's a pullback based on what we think, I mean, I would argue, all right, well, cough up all the cell phones, get rid of the Xboxes, all that. We just got to be mindful of moderation. And that's an instructional design issue. That's not a this widget or that widget issue.
Rick Fernandez [00:16:52]:
That's how we do school.
Matthew Millstein [00:16:53]:
school.
Rick Fernandez [00:16:54]:
There's nothing other than that. So I don't— I think, again, this is a big worry for nothing that we— most of the time in education, you don't have control over certain variables. This is something that you very much do have control over within the school setting, right? Okay, 15 minutes a day or 20 minutes a day, or we got to get bang for buck because we need them to understand this technology. And You know, the money that's being dumped in artificial intelligence is going to lead me to believe that the politicians, they can say whatever they want, but there's trillions of dollars. These companies are now bigger than oil, which has never really happened. So I'm not gonna buy the politicians and saying, hey, we gotta do this. They gotta do however they get their campaigns funded. Let's just be honest.
Rick Fernandez [00:17:40]:
So just be logical, be, be, work with your teams, work with your communities. And, and weigh the pros and cons of abstaining versus moderation versus do we need their butts up and playing. I agree with that. I want them outside playing too. Um, but everything in moderation. You don't have recess all day, right? So you don't have lunch. You don't have— my kid may go to all 3 lunches. He shouldn't be, but it's the same thing, right? It's my— it's— I don't know.
Rick Fernandez [00:18:08]:
I still think it's like nothing. Like, okay, well, yeah, there's— but moderation. We're the designers of the learning, right? So I don't know. I think it's overblown.
Rick Fernandez [00:18:17]:
Jacob, I got like a really quick hit on this and then I'll toss it over to you, like really, really quick. I think we're solving for the wrong thing. I mean, what are we trying to solve for, right? Are we trying to solve for diminishing screen time? Although I agree with you, Jacob, there is data out there around younger kids with, I think you wrote a LinkedIn post about it with iPads and like the YouTube Shorts and stuff that are Yeah. Actually, unfortunately designed to get them hooked and is really bad for their brain development. So that I agree with 1,000%. And I know that in society, there are parallels to what there, there are in education. But my view is we are trying to solve for closing equity and achievement gaps, right? Like bringing education forward, creating future-ready citizens, like people, humans, Rick, like you said. And humans need to be able to critically think.
Rick Fernandez [00:19:11]:
They need to be able to problem solve and they need to be able to use the tools and resources at their disposal to do those things. We're in 2026. So what is happening out there? Like, what do we use every day to solve a problem? We have to critically think first. We have to have agency first, right? But we also need to be able to use the tools that are at our disposal. Like, we're not pulling out an atlas. We're not pulling out a triptych. Rick, I don't know if you or I are the only oldest ones from AAA. We're not going to get the trip ticket to like look at where I'm going on the map, dude.
Rick Fernandez [00:19:44]:
I've got technology at my fingertips. And so I think we have to decide like, what are we actually trying to solve for? And if we're solving for everything has to be in person because we're swinging back from the other end of the pendulum of ESSER, it's just not solving for the right thing. We're trying to solve for systems and processes that are going to bring education forward. drive student outcomes, create scalability and high-quality education, like give resources to important educators out there. And so that's a conceptual view, Jacob, and a lot of the points that you raised earlier I thought were important and good ones.
Jacob Kantor [00:20:21]:
Let me kind of chime in on that side too. So while I was doing breakfast today with the kids, I had a CBO call me. Longtime friend, known him for years and years. Just like we were due to catch up, he called and I was like, man, if I don't pick up now, I probably won't catch him. So I was like, hey man, I got like five minutes. Like what's going on? And we were talking and he said, hey, you know the district he's in. He literally inherited a system for a CBO role that was built on like pre Excel documents, and he's like, I'm cleaning up. Like, I'm literally putting all my mental energy using AI personally to clean up all this stuff.
Jacob Kantor [00:21:03]:
So we were talking about like a tool that he likes that he might be moving forward, but then they did an analysis and there might be a shortfall and all this stuff. And like common conversation that every district is having now, right? But on his end, at the end of the call, he was like, hey, I'm doing an audit on everything we spend money on. Can I send you— the tools we already spending on? And can you like do a once over for me and literally look at it and be like, is there a better tool that solves for 3 of these things that we're paying 3 tools for? And I was like, I would actually genuinely enjoy this exercise. So yes, please. Like, I am happy to look at everything for you. But that made me think about, I think on one of the earlier pods we had months ago, You know, I was on with that superintendent that was like, do I hire you when I need a tool? And then you just go vet and bring me the 2, and then I pick from 2. And I was like, I've never done that before, but like, is this a new line item that I found for my own organization? Right? So this dynamic of like, everybody is going to be auditing solutions and the ones that are not truly moving the needle. The ones that are super expensive, the ones that are showing no efficacy, I think are gonna get cut.
Jacob Kantor [00:22:29]:
And like, Ryan, you and I text all the time, like just side texts from the group, right? Like there's some organizations I just can't jive with because they sold the shiny tool. There was no evidence. And you and I, right, like we've lived tutoring, we've lived test prep. Like that is 10 years. That's half of my adult career working was in those.
Rick Fernandez [00:22:52]:
Yeah.
Jacob Kantor [00:22:53]:
was in those spaces. So I know what really good looks like there, and I know what really bad looks like there. And like, just having that ingrained in me over COVID is, I mean, I'm not saying I was badmouthing people on calls, but I was telling friends like, hey, if you choose to use that provider, you are gonna be answering questions later on because there is no data. And I know this space and this is not good for you. I'm not saying buy my tool. buy a different tool than the one you are telling me you are considering, because this will end up blowing back on you. But at that time, with millions of dollars and in LAUSD, billions of dollars from ESSER dollars, I think people were not thinking these decisions through. And I wonder, Rick, I throw it to you, is that a microcosm of The district superintendent stats are 2.5 years, 2.7 years.
Jacob Kantor [00:23:57]:
Like, is some of that like, can I move the needle right now? If this doesn't work in 3 years, the stats are not in my favor. I might not even be here. This is somebody else's problem. I'm not saying that happens, but like, I wonder if that comes into the psyche of making decisions of like, not just for the superintendent, for the CBO, for the assistant superintendent, for the curriculum director, like they might not even be there. To see this program through, but they like this shiny tool and like, I don't know, I, I'm struggling with that mentally.
Rick Fernandez [00:24:32]:
Yeah, no. Um, so absolutely does that matter because, uh, I get a ton of inbound and I, I, I don't, I'm, I'm not the vendor validator, so to speak, but when I get those questions, I'm asking, how long do you have? How fast do you need it? What's the budget? When do you need to, like, to be up and running or the program to be active? And, you know, do you have a preference in who you would use or anything? Just as much information as you can possibly get because all of that matters, right? And if a school district is, like, for Texas, has got multiple years of D.A.R.F. schools and they're under the gun for potential intervention, state takeover, Then that timeline is way different. The urgency is different. The board pressure is different. And so all of that stuff has to be factored in. And it's always why I say to anybody that cares to ask is you've got to have a win perspective when you're serving school districts. Like, how do you get them wins, right? In the short term, in the long term.
Rick Fernandez [00:25:38]:
And that long term could vary. Some people have a long runway, others you got a very short runway to get something done. And so, if somebody were asking me and they have a year to make some headway with instruction and student performance, I wouldn't buy any. I would say you need people in classrooms giving feedback to teachers over and over and over and over and over. And those people need to be getting coached and coached and coached to coach teachers on what they see. That's the only way to do this in the timeframe that you have. So, all of those variables, Jacob, matter a great deal. And people go with who has executed it for them in the past, who they can trust that can get up there and frame things for the community and for the school board of why this is valuable, why will this help, what type of partner we're going to be for your kids, and that people are going to treat their staff very well, right? So, if those 3 things can happen, You've got a really good chance of partnering with the school district.
Rick Fernandez [00:26:43]:
If those things don't and you're, you don't understand what the chaos is in that seat on a day-to-day basis, you can have the best product in the world, but that's only the bare minimum of the battle of getting something across the line because there's a lot of really good products out there that you guys know. I mean, they come to us all the time and can't get traction for whatever reason, right?
Rick Fernandez [00:27:05]:
I'll popcorn it back to you in one second, Jacob. I just say putting wins on the board. We used to say we need to put wins on the board early and often for everybody, for the board, for the superintendent, for the principal, for the teacher, especially for the student. And how, because momentum is a real thing. And when you start to build momentum over the course of time, it creates the inertia and the momentum is real. And so I will just, Jacob, give grace to K-12 leaders during the pandemic when they were given 14 times Title I funding, which, you know, is an astronomical amount of money and given a time box to spend it. To me, that was an emergency period and they had to make decisions very quickly. And to me, a lot of what happened or didn't happen falls more heavily on the side of the vendor partner, even though I was there and participating in that.
Rick Fernandez [00:28:02]:
Because especially in that time, you want to do everything you can to actually make a difference versus chasing the money because the money goes away, right? And it has gone away. So to your point and Rick's point around being a lot more thoughtful, the reason why those, your close colleagues that you have deep relationships are trust you to look closely at products and make the right call is because you've seen everything. You saw it before COVID you saw it during COVID and you know what it is after. And in the middle, it's like 2% interest rates on homes. Like, God bless anybody who still has one, but like, they don't exist. They will never exist. It doesn't really exist and it won't exist. And so in K-12 education, it's always quality and durability and sustainability over everything.
Rick Fernandez [00:28:50]:
And I think that really takes a relationship and a true partnership and a mission-driven company to win. And those may not, like, I was telling you what, FEV Tutor, we never had the best and most shiny technology. In fact, might've been some towards the bottom. We always did have highly trained, high quality tutors, but they weren't the best tutors, right? But what we did have were implementation models that made sense, training models that train the right people, feedback loops. Like we had the stuff that, you know, and Rip know are quality. And so just to tie a bow on it, I think the shiny objects will always exist in K-12 education. And I think you and I text again about this too in the voice text about Um, the AI stuff, like sometimes it's smoke and mirrors and nobody knows any better. It's the same thing to me.
Rick Fernandez [00:29:38]:
It's the same thing that happened in COVID. It's a super, super shiny object. It's a lot of money to do sales and marketing. It's like sex sells. You were at the first air show. You like organized the whole thing and did it. Well, like what of that was an actual product that did anything, invent anything? And so I think it'll just be different versions. of what the shiny objects were during COVID during AI.
Rick Fernandez [00:30:02]:
And we have to be able to sift through those as a community to be able to find the ones that are actually gonna work. And it takes like true partnership and relationship. So that's why the guy's coming to you, the person's coming to you, 'cause you know.
Jacob Kantor [00:30:15]:
It's funny you bring up ASU GSB 'cause like half those companies or more weren't even around the second year. Not that they weren't around, they just didn't participate, right? I don't know what happened. But you know, you brought up something interesting and like Rick, I wanted to flag it for the audience is time kills all deals in everything. Forget ad tech. Like, you're buying a car, you're buying a house. Time is not on anyone's side. It kills all the deals. So, like, to your point of, like, wins for those folks, it's interesting.
Jacob Kantor [00:30:47]:
And, like, hopefully the audience is still with us. But, like, you know what I do? Like, me personally in my business, right? I have to button up All of the marketing that a company has into like 3 things that sometimes people won't even read those 3 things that would be a win for them if they choose to forget, buy it. I'm not even there yet. Take the 20 minutes to meet of the potential of what it could be. And then we will get to if there's a need and partnership and funding. So I think this idea of like, That's a great call-out even for the orgs that I serve, right? Is, does this make that person get a raise? And I don't know why my brain thinks about things like that, but I'm just wired in that way, right? Are they going to go to a board meeting and say, and the board is going to say, you are crushing it. You wanted this math tool. This math tool is improving the entire district.
Jacob Kantor [00:31:48]:
We are now a shining star in the state. You deserve extra vacation days. I don't even know if that's a thing, Rick, but you know what I mean? Like, you deserve, you deserve a steak dinner, whatever, you know, like, you deserve, like, the kudos come. And, you know, Ryan, something you said too, on like the COVID right? Like, I don't fault anybody, you know, there was an abundant amount of money, people were trying to do the best they could for the kids, right? They were serving kids, there was parents reaching out. Like, I remember having conversations, again, like, RIP Varsity Tutors, right? I was the first high higher on that team, all day long I had 30-minute calls with districts. And I can say this with a straight face, Rob Dixon and I from Wichita Public Schools, we know each other because of Varsity Tutors, right? We put a program in place for the students at Wichita for 50,000 students, not for the whole, but we said, hey, this is the tool we have, here's the tutor base we have, we need help implementing, we need all that stuff. That program did not go well. Like, and like, I'd be curious to invite Rob on to get his side of it.
Jacob Kantor [00:32:58]:
But like, that program got launched, and then I exited Varsity Tutors, right? So like, I didn't even see the contract through fruition. But I talked to him afterwards. We're good friends now. We talk all the time. But like, that contract did not go well, right? Was it a mixture of the wrong tutors, the wrong system, the wrong delivery, the wrong implementation, right? Like there's a lot of factors here and it could have also been like partially on the district, right? Like, and that's why, like, I almost think we should go into outcomes-based contracting because like, but he and I remain close and remain, you know, friendly because like, it's not like I was calling him and saying like, you know what, I'm going to make $5 million off you and run to the bank. Like arguably it was the opposite than that, but that's for another day. But the dynamic of like, hey, we have a tool, we think it could be useful for your problem that you came to us for. I think genuinely we can help you solve that.
Jacob Kantor [00:34:04]:
And whatever happened on the implementation side didn't work. And things like that happen every day with every tool. But I think for the relationships I have, right?
Rick Fernandez [00:34:16]:
Yeah.
Jacob Kantor [00:34:16]:
What I always tell the organizations I have is you want to be so deep with the school and your contact when shit hits the fan, and it inevitably will, that they call you and say, I need this fixed. Because if they call you and say, I need this fixed, you have time to fix it. If they don't call you and the board calls them or the parents start complaining or 10 other things that happen in a district every single day, it's gone. That's gone. I don't care how good the relationship is, that when other people are involved and asking questions, it's gone, right? So you want to have enough of that built relationship with that person where inevitably things will come up and they call you as a trusted advisor to say, hey, this is what's going on. Can we rectify this situation? We need More support, less support, less communication, more communication, whatever that is, right? Like you want to get the call before everybody above them gets the call.
Rick Fernandez [00:35:20]:
Yeah. By the way, I'm with you. Everyone in during COVID I believe, I truly believe any organization that invested in responding to the pandemic for K-12 education all had positive intent. I'm 100% with you. I don't believe there was anyone out there that had negative intent. I believe everybody saw the need was enormous and it needed everybody to come in. And so I'll just like double underscore that plus one plus thousand on that one. It's just like, are you built and ready for the opportunity? And I think the letter and the guidance helps people get ready for the opportunity.
Rick Fernandez [00:35:57]:
If I'm like, look, remember, you know, I said to you, Jacob, like, hey, that's, is that just logic and reason? And then you're like, Ryan, I think it's a positive thing. And like, I, I'm like, you know what, Jacob's 100% right. This is just like a plan, a framework to be ready to have a chance to go help students. There's a lot more to it along the way, but isn't it? If you look at that and you designed a program or a product, or you adhere to those like values and framework. I just feel like that sets people up to give them a chance or guide them in the right direction.
Jacob Kantor [00:36:36]:
Rick, I wonder if we take this for our last segment into like outcomes-based contracting. Your boy just became super popular at EdTech Week because I got an outcomes-based contracting session with, you know, some power hitters. So that's awesome. But, you know, we did have an episode obviously with Brittany. But like, I wonder, you know, with all of this stuff that came out, right, outcomes-based contracting becomes obviously way, way in the spotlight, but I'm cognizant it's also really hard to do, right? Like, because the ownership is on the company, we will deliver X by X date and have these results, or we will— and some financial stake is tied to that. But it also leads to the district having responsibility. A, my opinion only, I think that's a positive of the district is picking a tool and needs to implement properly too, and the partner needs to be there implementing with them. But like, how hard is this to do for all of the other— because right now outcomes-based contracting is very tutoring-focused, right? Like, how do you do that for a curriculum provider? How do you do that for textbooks? How do you do that for all these other things?
Rick Fernandez [00:37:50]:
I mean, again, I think it goes back to kind of the baseline of habits and learning and changing habits, right, of adults. Because ultimately, no matter what it is that you're trying to solve for or come to an agreement on, the adults are going to be the ones that have to figure out how do we use it? How do we get it to the kids? What are we going to adhere to? I mean, I think it's a good practice. I worry a little bit on Does how much time does it add on into an engagement? Number one, and number two, like I feel like we we should be able to have that conversation and and do that in a way as we're going through the engagement of of whatever solution or service that that's a part of it. It's just you know like like construction right a guaranteed final price and and certain timelines and limited on change orders so there's not. scope creep. It's fairly similar, in my opinion, on the facility side. So I think that there's— and if there's changes in the scope or there's changes and funding has to be reallocated when you're working with facilities and the school district is at fault because, hey, now all of a sudden we need another sidewalk here, but that wasn't part of the discussion. Well, then yeah, then you do have to have a change order and the budget has to be reallocated.
Rick Fernandez [00:39:16]:
But that's not on the architecture firm or the general contractor, right? So I see it kind of the same lens as it would be if we're talking tutoring, if we're talking, you know, AI programming, whatever it may be. It's, I feel like we should pretty, we should be in a place where we can do that, where it doesn't extend an engagement very long. And there should be enough, you know, room to negotiate this.
Rick Fernandez [00:39:42]:
Yeah.
Rick Fernandez [00:39:43]:
I think honestly, the harder part of it is not on the provider side. I think it's harder on the school district side because the amount of variables that disrupt a school day, that disrupt something, that gets you out of maximizing the time that's really required to do anything well over time and get results is usually the problem. Because we're cutting it or we're going to a block schedule or we have 3 weeks of testing or the juniors have to pull out. you know, for SAT prep or what, you know, whatever it is. To me, that's the larger barrier. It's, I don't, I don't think it's the barrier on the, on the provider side, to be honest with you. So, uh, and I know that just because of all the crazy schedules that we had in Houston ISD is like everybody had their own schedule. Um, so you weren't ever aligned with your elementary, your middle school.
Rick Fernandez [00:40:33]:
It was like you were a fiefdom of yourself. So, um, which I enjoyed, but I also see how problematic that could So, uh, yeah, it's good. It's good practice. I feel like we should be in a spot to, to kind of take the reins on that and, and move forward without a whole lot of messiness, in my opinion.
Jacob Kantor [00:40:52]:
Ryan, close this out. I know you guys had tons of research, tons of data. You guys were OG outcomes-based contracting. Like, close this out where, you know, there's some chatter so we can get spicy on all things, right? Like, I will always defend the people that are doing good work and that were doing the the best versus the charlatans. That was my word of like 2024, I feel like. But like you live this world, right? So like, tell us how outcomes-based contracting worked for you. Because like, I mean, I know in our chat you shout out all of the like districts that you did this with. Like, give us that side of the house.
Rick Fernandez [00:41:31]:
Yeah, man, I appreciate you naming that. It means a lot. I don't have time for a long story here, but imagine a world I'll use your term, you use my term. Imagine a world where I'm sitting in this random little mini shared office in Marblehead, Massachusetts. It's right when the pandemic started. We're getting scared that we can't put our grocery bags on the counter because we don't know if COVID could be spread that way. We're terrified that our You know, son at that time, Theo, might get COVID and we don't know what's going to happen. Is it deadly? All the news is coming out.
Rick Fernandez [00:42:15]:
We were trying to keep the lights on at FEV Tutor. I mean, I know we talked about all the companies during the pandemic and you were there that were riding some tailwinds of growth. The first days we were like, how do we even survive as an organization? How do I keep my job? What do we do? But where I was during that time is I was in an outcomes-based contracting workshop with Harvard for Center of Educational Policy Research. And you know the story, Jacob, but I'll tell it real quick to the audience. There were 8 school districts, one of which was Ector County ISD, Dr. Scott Murray, who to me is a pioneer in this space and someone that I admire and I'm inspired by. There were 7 other districts, there were 7 tutoring providers, and they were basically, Jacob, like walking us through what is an outcomes-based contract because it had worked in a lot of other industries and they wanted to bring it over to K-12 education. And the vehicle for that was going to be tutoring.
Rick Fernandez [00:43:16]:
And it was like straight up during the pandemic. So it did, they started it in late 2020 and obviously nobody knew a global pandemic was going to happen. So everybody's like trapped, But the intent was real. The frameworks were real, but it got delayed. And where I'll give credit where credit is due is to Dr. Scott Meara. He pushed the pace before Center for Outcomes-Based Contracting under the Southern Education Foundation. It's changed names a lot, as you know.
Rick Fernandez [00:43:43]:
Before they were fully ready to create the guidance, Scott Meara was like, Ryan, because we were partnering with them before that to do targeted tutoring for math and ELA. He was like, Ryan, we're going to do it. I got the contract template. I'm ready. Let's go. We have to, we have no time to waste. And I think this was like 2021. So that was, from what I understand, the very first outcomes-based contract that ever got done in K-12 education.
Rick Fernandez [00:44:08]:
And it was because A, we were in the same room that day with Harvard and B, because Scott is Scott. And so Jacob, over the course of time, we built real capacity and real outcomes to the extent that Ector County ISD was in the top 6 nationwide for math NAEP scores. And this is like unheard of, Jacob. They're a turnaround district. This was turnaround work. And a big piece of why Dr. Murray believed that that was true is because he had an intentional and strategic outcomes-based contract for virtual tutoring. And there were 2 providers, by the way.
Rick Fernandez [00:44:50]:
It wasn't just us. Okay. So we turned around, partnered with Edmentum. Shout out to Jamie Candy and Edmentum. I think they do amazing work. And she's a longtime colleague. We did another one at Duval County for 2 years. Shout out to Jasmine Walker.
Rick Fernandez [00:45:05]:
Jasmine Walker from OBC ran the living H out of that program at middle schools and built it. We hit all the outcome goals. And we did it at Jackson, Mississippi. And so to Rick's point and to your point, I think for me it's performance-based contract, right? Like, I don't necessarily think that there needs to be a huge windfall of more money for a company just to do their dang job and create student outcomes. I believe the reason why we started FEV Tutor was so that we could drive outcomes that matter for students, because I know if we do that, we can create a positive impact on education and We can grow as a business and make money, right? We can do well while doing good. And so to me, like the framework is important. And I think if you can bring that to scale without, to your point, Rick, and I think Jacob, like it gotta be like in the future, I feel like we gotta make it easier and more efficient to execute the contract. To your point, Rick, like there's a lot of stuff you, There's a lot of shit stuff that you can't account for in a school district.
Rick Fernandez [00:46:12]:
And like, I don't necessarily know if all one size fits all OBCs, Jacob, are working, but I do know that the people at Outcomes, Brittany Miller, Jasmine, like those are amazing humans. And I know that they've been evolving this since the time that I was fortunate enough to be in the ground floor of it. And so I would say just like anything, how do we build on the momentum of outcomes-based contracting and like, Have the norm be performance-based, like culture for edtech. That's my biggest thing. I think it should have always been true, but if— when's the best day for that to be true? It was yesterday. When's the next best day for it to be true? It's today. So how do we show up and live that? And I think that's really what the core of what you have been talking about, what you were talking about, and Rick, I mean, I know you feel the same way, a lot easier said than done, but, um, and I don't think everything needs to be like, last thing I'll say, Jacob, is everything doesn't need to be hinged on an outcomes-based contract because like the thing, it's like the RCT. If we're only playing for the outcomes-based contract and there's any like inhibitors, I can't do it as a district.
Rick Fernandez [00:47:22]:
I can't do it as a vendor. What if we just, what if the thing wasn't that scary and what we wanted to do together was create results and outcomes that we shared and like mutual investment in the program. And for me, that's what a true partnership is all about. And an outcomes-based contracting framework is important, like guidance and framework that can like help bring that into reality, which is inherently good for everyone. Thank you for giving me the space. I got, there's a lot in here about that type of stuff. And, and I appreciate you asking that question, Jacob, and it means a lot to me.
Jacob Kantor [00:48:01]:
No, I think that was good. And I think that was on brand with what we're talking about for outcomes-based contracting and making sure tools are working, making sure there's buy-in from district, making sure that they have skin in the game beyond just dollars, right? Like, we are— there's mutual investment to see students succeed or teachers succeed if it's a teacher tool, or the CBO succeed, or the superintendent succeed. Whatever the product, whoever they serve, we want that person— again, the frame of reference for me is like, I want that person at the end of the 3-month, 6-month engagement, our first 3 months, to be in a position where somebody's like, dude, this is really good. You deserve a raise. If I could have that in my brain as a benefit for them and what an outcome could be for them, then I always have their best interest at heart because I want them to never be in a position where it's the opposite and they are not lasting those 3 years, right? Like, that is a worst-case scenario. We want the best-case scenario. Take us home.
Rick Fernandez [00:49:05]:
Yeah, I think, you know, we went around the whole globe today on topics when we were looking at the Department of Ed and the guidance. So let's get a quick pulse on what is the urgency or how we think that this new guidance will affect the markets. Like, so 10 being It's going to affect everything. People are going to freak out and have to totally shift how they do things to one, like, eh, not much at all, just kind of things we already knew. And so I'll volunteer first. I think probably about a 3 to 4, maybe give some people some pause to think about things. Some states may hold tighter than others, but ultimately I still think the states retain the power and the same questions are going to be the focus as they've been for quite some time. Money, time, what's the outcome and what's the win for the district and for the people that are going to be purchasing the solution or services.
Rick Fernandez [00:50:06]:
And so, Ryan, what's your 1 to 10 type of impact on this Department of Ed?
Rick Fernandez [00:50:11]:
Yeah, I just think I appreciate Jacob, you just like leveling my mind up from why are we stating logic and reason to sometimes you just, you have to do that. And we should take it seriously. And it's a good reminder that we're not solving for having a kid on a screen or not on a screen. What we're solving for is high-quality instruction and student outcomes. And so for that, I think we should listen and learn and watch. Am I going to run my entire business based on that? No. So I would probably give it a 4 or a 5. And I wouldn't, I would never want to take a, I never want to be too up or too down.
Rick Fernandez [00:50:50]:
This is just me as like a business person and a human. I want to try to be as consistent as possible. So I would give it a 5 and then understand what Rick said. The power has really always been with the states relative to what they want to do with their funding. And then to me, most importantly, the districts, I would always say, I don't really want a state-level contract and get money from the state. I would rather partner with Hector County and have them invest their own funding and do it organically with Dr. Muri and do that over and over and over again consistently so that the money that I'm getting or the money that we're receiving as an organization is always there, not here today, gone tomorrow. And so as we go down to the levels, Rick, it's really partnerships of the school districts that matter the most to me.
Jacob Kantor [00:51:38]:
You know, I think 6 or 7 And I say that because some districts have already been asking these questions. Some have now been put on notice like, hey, this is a best practice and this is already happening and you should be looking at it. And I think for the edtech community as a whole, I think this is a real positive. So if it's on the edtech side, it should be an 8 or a 9. But I'm cognizant that like the big boys with the big budgets are going to be able to do studies and like prove it. And the—
Matthew Millstein [00:52:08]:
Sure.
Jacob Kantor [00:52:09]:
Sharp and scrappy startups that might not have funding because they're trying to also make an impact, right? Like, let's be honest, what land grab are we doing at edtech? Like, we could all be working in AI and not be in education and be significantly wealthier, but we choose to work in education because we want to make an impact. So I think for those scrappy ones, this should be a good guideline for how they do it. And then I'll leave you guys with this too, because this is like fresh in my brain, even as from yesterday, right? I was on a couple of big calls with companies that were doing $50 million and a big-time player that's the top 5 companies out there. And if I mention them, you'd be like, oh, that's a cool one. But like the overarching theme for the calls that I'm having is this is the time to be thoughtful with your strategy. And your emails to the districts are going to go into every spam filter imaginable that is set up. And I'm not saying come to Ryan, come to Rick, come to Jacob because we help with that.
Rick Fernandez [00:53:14]:
We do.
Jacob Kantor [00:53:15]:
Shout out, we're available. But that's not the point of this. The point is you need to be thoughtful, you need to be strategic, and you need to provide, like we were talking about, those 3 bullet points for somebody to look at and be like, I don't know if this is a thing, but based on the 3 things you told me, this could get me a raise. This could help me. This could help the kids. And if we're not thinking about it that way, like, there's going to be more layoffs. There's going to be more people looking for jobs. And that is— that doesn't bring any of us joy when we see an announcement or I get a text from a high-up district person saying, did this company go out of business? And I'm like, I don't think so.
Jacob Kantor [00:54:01]:
Like, I'll get back to you. That doesn't bring any of us joy or the sector, because the next time I'm talking to that person about a new tool, what's in their mind? This big company, did they go out of business? Like, should I trust this little company? So like, be mindful of what you are doing right now with back-to-school time and have a real strategy. If any of us could be of help to any of you guys listening, be in touch. But I will challenge you guys before you reach out to us, make sure you know what this document says and know what your 3 bullet items are for us, right? Like, help me help you. Arm me with all of the things so I can quickly say yes to you. Because if not, then I'll just get you a canned response. And I'm sure Rick has it too. And Ryan.
Jacob Kantor [00:54:55]:
Hey, you are a little too early for me, or you don't have some of the efficacy, lighthouse districts, or XYZ that I look for in partners. I'm rooting for you. I'm rooting for everybody, but help us when you reach out to us as well.
Rick Fernandez [00:55:11]:
Yep. All right. Well, that was a lot of meat on the bone there. And we are thrilled that Everybody has really shown up for our show, and we are going to continue to bring on guests to inform not only the K-12 space, but, you know, all of edtech. And on behalf of Matthew and Jeff and the rest of the boys, we will see you next time on The Boys of EdTech. Bye.