Counterfeit Christ: Is Your Jesus Just a Reflection of You?

In this episode of Red Ledger, Denalee and Tyler Bell discuss the various cultural misconceptions and distorted versions of Jesus often presented in modern society. They address the pitfalls of progressive, legalistic, hyper-grace, and partisan 'Jesuses' and emphasize the importance of returning to the true Jesus of the Bible. They also explore the consequences of legalism, subjective morality, and political entanglements within the church. Through personal anecdotes and scriptural references, the Bells highlight the necessity of deepening one's understanding of biblical truth, fostering genuine transformation, and maintaining a balanced perspective of grace and truth in the Christian faith.

Creators and Guests

DB

Host

Denalee Bell

What is Red Ledger Podcast?

We share stories of how the blood of Jesus has transformed ours and others' lives.

 Hey everybody. Welcome to Red Ledger. I am Denalee Bell and my amazing son, Tyler Bell is joining me today and we are going to talk about Jesus. Howdy. I have a question for you. So let's say Jesus strolls into your town and starts preaching on the streets. Would you know it was him by his words? Would he recognize us, the church?

Are we reflecting him? That's probably the bigger question. Uh, today's world, we have really found a way to swap out the real Jesus found in the Bible for. A counterfeit Jesus that kind of fits and suits our needs. We have kind of boiled down to four different, although there's probably many more of an exhausted list of how people create Jesus to be the way they need him to be.

But we talk about the trend chasing Jesus. This is, maybe I should've maybe said cultural Jesus. He's the one that bends to every cultural whim, and we're just gonna, for um sake, for the rest sake of the rest of this, not confusing anyone, we'll just call him progressive Jesus. We got legalistic Jesus, who really is in love with the rules, really is a good rule follower, but doesn't have too much.

Grace. And then we've got hyper grace. Jesus, who is so far on the other side of the pendulum with grace, skips out on transformation and truth. And then we have my standby, the partisan Jesus. And this is the Jesus that we've walked into our politics and ideologies. This is the, this is the Jesus that represents us on Twitter.

Now, none of these are really the Jesus of the Bible. They're, um, counterfeits. There's probably a little bit of truth in each one of them, right? Jesus does have grace. Jesus does have truth. Jesus does respect society. Um, Jesus loves the people and there are probably some truths on each side of the aisle, right or left for politics that, you know, Jesus would agree with.

But I think people are missing the real point of who Jesus is, why he came. That is to save us. That is to save us from our sin and to transform our hearts so that we could reflect him. And I think that is the bigger missing piece of all of these Jesuses that we talk about is, is the transformation. I wanna start with hyper grace Jesus, or even the culturally whim Jesus.

They're kind of the same person, right? Mm-hmm. This is the Jesus that is really permissive ignores accountability, right? This, this is the sin without change. We can see churches doing this. And I think that is, well, we'll get into the reason why in a minute, but this is where we see these sermons that are really more motivational speeches and less about doctrine, less about the gospel.

And some of them don't even mention Jesus. I listened to a bunch of 'em this week. A lot of, a lot of mes and yous. And me and I. And me and you. Yes. I listened to a lot of pastors this week. Um, one of them in particular, um, I'm just gonna tell you what she said. She had two abortions and she felt that that was okay.

She said that. People against abortion were pushing a toxic theology. She continued to say that God was with her each step of the way, and she could not fathom a holy God who would make her want to go through a, a pregnancy. So this is a female priestess or priest, I'm not sure. It it is, you know, a Christian denomination.

It, it does say that on their website. Um, which I found very interesting. So you see where we can go into this hyper grace or, I think this is where we go in the weeds, right? Like, I wanna believe this, so I'm gonna believe this. And what's even worse is she's teaching that to other people. Yeah. I think it's, um, pretty scary stuff to, it's hard, like, I feel like.

When somebody gets like church hurt or receives like the ugly side of the, like, legalistic side of the church, the hypocritical, the judgemental, the prideful side of the church. A lot of people will go so far the other way where everything's permissible, kind of like you said. Mm-hmm. That it's, it's, it is like a, a pendulum.

It swings way too far and people start to live unrepentant lifestyles. When Jesus did call for us to repent, how and why did this happen? That's the question that I've been pondering since we've been talking about this podcast for quite a while now. And I have a lot of theories, which I'm gonna share some of them with you.

And you know, just remember, we're not theologians, we're not historians, we're not sociologists or philosophers. And I think that is like a group of people needed to even understand the historical context of what's happened to our society. Mm-hmm. Um, but I will, I will say this. People wanting to change who Jesus is has been going on since Jesus came.

Um, I was reminded of the story of Peter when Jesus is basically asking him, who, who am I? And Peter answers, you're the Messiah. And within a few sentences down the road on scripture, Jesus is starting to tell everybody that it's, you know, what his mission is gonna entail, that he is gonna go, he is gonna get killed and he's gonna, you know, be resurrected in three days.

And Peter says, no, no, you can't. Yeah. And I thought that was. Interesting because here we have Peter who knew the word of the prophecy of the coming Messiah. He knew that to be true, and he still is rejecting that and saying, no, you can't leave us. Mm-hmm. And so I see where it can happen in society and even within our own hearts.

Right? Even, um, with the, the Jews, they didn't want, uh, I guess Jesus to have maybe more of that servitude, uh, approach to the Messiah. Uh. Forthcoming he had, they wanted him to be a military leader, you know? Well that is so interesting 'cause I just looked that up too. 'cause I wanted to mention that, that you know, the Jewish people right?

That's what they thought. The coming Messiah was gonna bring peace and I mean, while he did right. We have peace that he left with us with the Holy Spirit. Yeah. They are still saying that that is not the Messiah though. Yeah. He does, um, come in all the ways the prophecy said he would. Yeah. They were looking for like a physical solution instead of a spiritual one, which kind of I think is funny considering legalism in the law.

It is. I think. Some of the reasons maybe I have done this is in the past I, when I didn't really have bible literacy or biblical literacy. And I'm not saying that I am a scholar now, but I'm saying I've at least read the Bible and, um, I do follow Christ and I do try and I don do make mistakes. So let's just preface it with it there.

I don't have it all figured out. I know, I don't, I don't think any of us do. So, no. But there was a time when I was extremely illiterate, right? I mm-hmm. I did not maybe had not even read one book of the Bible, but I'd been saved for quite some time and I went to church on occasion, right? So I felt like I knew who Jesus was and I probably got some of the tense right?

Like I knew Jesus was love. I knew that. Mm-hmm. Um, I knew some of the basics, but because I only knew the basics, I could really get off in the weeds with my theology. And I didn't go to church, so I didn't have anyone really correcting me. I, I made up my own version of Christianity and what it entailed was a hyper grace.

It was a hyper grace Jesus, because I knew Jesus was love and that's all I knew. So I would, I would compare everything and every sin and everything against what Jesus, what I believe Jesus was telling me about love. Mm-hmm. Well, I didn't really know what Jesus was telling me because I had a pretty shallow view of love and meaning an emotion or feeling Right.

And, and I really didn't know what love was because I would. Think, oh if, as long as it's good, it's love. And so for instance, I'm gonna go here, I had gay friends and in my mind I could not imagine a Jesus who would not be okay with them. 'cause they weren't hurting anyone, right? They weren't hurting them.

How could, how could he be against them loving another human being? And I even did an entire paper about it in college about why I thought that it should be that way and deceived many people with my thoughts on that and would argue for it. Well, I do believe that Jesus loves everyone and everyone who does everything.

He still loves them and wants them to repent and come to him and follow him and pick up their cross every day. I also know that the lie that I was perpetuating was quite damaging to people because let, let's say we have a heroin user. I'm saying, well, you know, God loves you as long as you're not hurting anyone.

Just go ahead and do your heroin. Okay. So I do kind of, I don't, I think it's kind of interesting to compare like heroin to like being gay though. Oh, I, okay. I was, I wasn't, I was, I was, I guess I'm being soft on the gay part still because I don't want to offend and hurt people, which is part of the problem.

Right. How do we share truth with people if all of our truth is hurtful and offensive? And that, I mean, that, that's the problem is the Bible hasn't changed, but our level of hurt and offense has, so I wanna be cognizant that people are living in pain and in sin, and I, I know God's not rating sin. Right.

Okay. Let, let's say like overeating, there isn't a whole lot of what you would think would be consequences in modern culture. Yeah, when it comes to that subject, right. But I think that's wrong. I think there's hidden consequences that we don't see. 'cause sin beget. I think so too. Yeah. Sin begets sin, but that's like with everything though, right?

Well, yeah, but so let's use overeating. So, 'cause sin is like a road to death. Yes. So like overeating can be a road to death. Like it's all a road to death, right? Yes. It just like looks different, different fonts I felt when I brought it, when you brought the heroin, I was kinda like, whoa. That's like a super fast way to death that I don't feel like, I feel like if somebody heard that, they'd be like, whoa.

You know what I mean? Okay. How about drinking too much coffee? Let's go there. Yeah, let's do it. Okay, so that could hurt your body, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of too much of anything. Yeah. So if you be, if you become a slave to anything, yes, it's probably separating you from God. If you put anything before God, you're probably being separated from God.

Now, overeating, for instance, you know, it causes a whole lot of problems cause health problems, right? It causes, yeah. So for me, I've actually struggled this in this area where I would binge and the whole thing. The problem was, is I was hurting myself with food. I was abusing my body with food, and it didn't stop there.

Even though you think, okay, well that's, you're doing that to yourself, that's your own destruction. Well, no, because the guilt and shame that would come afterwards. It would come out of me, it would emanate for me, and other people would have to deal with it too, right? Mm-hmm. So. It, it's not fair to other people that, yeah, I'm in this guilt and shame and self-loathing cycle and then I'm not taking care of what I want to because I'm obsessed with food.

And it's a whole crazy nightmare cycle where food came before every thought, what I was going to eat for the day. Every morsel and every calorie and every thought was probably, it was so intrusive all day of my life. So how do I represent God if I'm a psycho about food? Right. And I'm not saying you guys are.

I'm saying that's what, that was me. That was my experience. Yeah. So let's, don't get all religious on me. But yeah. So anyway, I think, I think part of the problem is of why we got here to all the fake Jesus. Is is a lack of knowledge. Yeah. Right. That's kind of what we're saying. Like I didn't understand the Bible, I didn't understand what was sin.

I didn't understand the destruction of it. Even with this podcast, I can see this podcast being a problem 'cause people are getting bite size. Jesus. Especially in our clips and our shorts are our reels on TikTok or Instagram. Yeah. Where they're just getting a brief moment in time. And I can see this in the comments 'cause I, I just got a pretty fiery comment by somebody in YouTube about how much Christians suck and, and he wasn't wrong.

Yeah. Well and he wasn't wrong. I mean, he had a truth. You know, he's basically been hurt by religion and he thinks that, um, everything that Christians do is wrong. Like, you shouldn't tell people the good news 'cause they don't wanna hear it. And you shouldn't, um, talk about gay people because it's none of your business.

And. Those were kind of his major, major arguments. Um, but he's also been hurt by the church, I believe, just based on the brevity and the length of his comment. But what I thought of was, oh, he's encountered people who have been saved but didn't know a lot more than that, that didn't have the biblical knowledge or revelation, or weren't walking with the Holy Spirit, weren't following Jesus, and they hurt him because I was that person hurting people.

So I totally get it. Um, and you know, we need to, I, I just, I did, I prayed in that moment again for any ignorance that I have pushed on to other people and any lack of love that I have given. But I think here's the problem. Ah, people do not know what love is and love contains truth, and the truth is what sets us free from bondage.

So if I'm sharing you with the Jesus of this good book and it offends you, I'm really sorry. But this good book changes lives and transforms hearts, and that is where all the good stuff happens. And that's what I want for people again. Yeah. Like the, the, the whole point of this podcast, people create an idea of who Jesus is, even as an unbeliever and look at it as one, like a, like a legal book basically of what you can and can't do.

Mm-hmm. Um, that feels arbitrary or goes against what contemporary beliefs are. People don't understand that like the gravity of like what sin is. And, and, and the theology of, of how the world works, of how these things work, of how God works and who God is and how God loves them and, and how God heals people and how God does miracles.

All these things. It's really easy, I think when you've been hurt to stare at the thing that's hurt you instead of look at the people that have like actually transformed and have actually like been the fruit of the Bible, you know? Amen. And especially if they're not in your immediate life or maybe you're living on Twitter.

Yeah. Then you would probably think that Christianity's about hate. Yeah. Well, I mean obviously a lot of people online that. Like, are chronically online, like to usually cast some hate in the comments? Like a, like a whipping post? Like I might be, yeah. I'm just grateful, like we're not having a lot of personal comments lately, so praise God.

There you're missing something and then you're blaming the whole picture and then you think you know everything about it. And you think everybody, all bunch of Christians are just stupid people following a cult, you know? But you don't really know one extend understand like the historical reliability about it, like the logical, like reliability of it, as well as having like an experience with God do, they don't get to hear or see that, because I think sometimes when a truth is presented, meaning, okay, abortion's wrong, I, I believe it's wrong, it's morally wrong, it hurts the woman, it hurts, obviously the ends a child's life and hurts the man and they don't even understand in ways.

That they can't even understand maybe at the time and in the future. And I, you know, I, I do believe we're living in a time where some people don't have a conscience and maybe it's okay. Yeah. And their, their conscience is so seared that this doesn't bother them. Yeah. But I don't think that's the majority of people that go through this.

And from the stories I've heard and been privy to it, it is, it is very painful and it's very hard to let go of that shame and guilt of. Losing that child in that way. Yeah. And being responsible for it. Mm-hmm. And so I do pray for them. Um, they are forgiven when they come to Jesus, right? Mm-hmm. But I do still have such a hard time with the people that keep selling it.

Like, this is good. This is no big deal. This is just a clump of cells. I have a hard time with that. And God, please gimme grace for them. Yeah. Well, they, they just truly don't know. They don't. Or there's people that are, you know, up there that do know and like profit. So Yes. The, the profit of it, I think it's a $7 trillion industry now.

Yes. Worldwide. Wow. So in my studies and in just in, well actually since our podcast that we did on toxic femininity, there are. A lot of things that kind of came to, um, my knowledge at the time, and a lot of this is based in Marxism. A lot of what you're seeing today in the woke theology in feminism, it started a couple hundred years ago obviously, but you can really see the counterculture of the sixties and seventies where it really, really changed and started to infiltrate our education system and.

That is where I believe a lot of this has started and really grown. And I do believe it came out of maybe an innocent place of injustice because, you know, women were being treated unfor unfairly, black people were being treated unfairly. I mean, a lot of people were being Jewish, people were being treated unfairly.

Okay. But what evolved outta that was the feminine goddess. We've got the black liberation, we've got, um, even the Aryan Jesus, they all have these different jesuses that represent their movement. Mm-hmm. And not one of them is truth and grace. Not one of them is a transforming Jesus. And I think if I'm just guessing at how this came across or came about, it seems to me that people were sick of injustice.

And I don't think they were trusting in God to deliver justice. Mm-hmm. And so they wanna take it into their own hands because behind all of this Marxist agenda, it's the idea that there's always an oppressor and there's always a victim. Okay? So we have to take this oppressor out at all means necessary.

And if that means violence, that's okay. And so we're kind of seeing that play out right now. We saw it with the BLM riots, and then we see it with the Tesla, you know, the bombings of Tesla dealerships and cars, and the vandalism and the destruction of these people that are really okay with destroying and vandalizing because they are so far into this ideology that they've been cooking up for decades.

Okay. So within the school system that capitalism is bad. That freedom is bad, basically, and the government's gonna manage your stuff better than capitalism. And they've been really so good. And so, um, such great stewards of our resources, that's a joke, but they really believe in this ideology and they've all attached to Jesus with it, right?

So, um, the black liberation has black Jesus. We've got the, um, Aryan Nation with their, um, anti-Jewish Jesus, and like I said, the feminism, and there's, there's other groups, but it just, it kind of gives you a timeline of where this started and why, and I feel like the problem with it is right, because, so you have an oppressor and you got a victim.

Okay. The problem with each of them that I see is their solution is to beat up and kill and destroy the oppressor. Okay. Um, feminism kind of sold us and they all sell us in with a small piece of truth, right? Fism sold us that we should all get paid the same wage. Well, of course we should. That's fair.

We're doing the same job. We should get paid the same wage, right. But behind its tentacles was really just a quest for power and more power as we see. I see the ruse with, um, you know, now we're, they're including men in women's sports. And I'm like, where are the feminists? Where'd they go? Because they're just kind of okay with this.

And it's bizarre. It's bizarre. So it kind of shows us there's not really any real solid ideology behind this, but dismantling the system. And I was talking to Grok, um, the AI the other day, um, 'cause I've been trying to convince him that, um, about God in my spare time. I was asking like, if you were the devil, what would you do?

Like, how would you destroy and take over? And basically he said, you know, I'd sow seeds of, uh, division in the church. I would tempt pastors and expose them. And I mean, it was just kind of a list of where we already are in the Church of Division disunity. And oh, they would, he said, I would fill the church with half truths about who Jesus is.

And I thought, oh, and I, I responded to him 'cause we've been arguing. And I said, so that's already happened? And gr says yes. And he was kind of making a, an excuse this AI that that doesn't mean it's the devil. And I said, but I don't think people have. The ability to be that methodical and that kind of staying power.

We have the tension span of a flea to really do this long game of dismantling society. And so in America you have this like free society based on Christ and his principles, and you can see why everyone would wanna take that down. Not everyone. You could see why the enemy would wanna take that down and use people and ideologies that are not really transformative.

Like they're not gonna win with this ideology. You're not gonna win by tearing down men, women, like we're not gonna, we're not gonna win by tearing them down and stepping up on them to get what we want. You're not gonna, you're not gonna win any culture war. You're just going to maybe, maybe if you do win, what'd you really win by beating men up.

Because, I mean, kinda that's where we're at in society. They're a little beat up, aren't they? For me as a man that's like, I think I have a good head on my shoulders to be like, yeah, I think that they're like, really Hank hankering down on men. But as I kind of see some of the men of this culture right now, I don't know, sometimes I'm kind of like, wow.

Like I feel like there's, okay, Andrew Tate aside. I don't think there's good masculine, um, figures that are teaching men how to be men in a good way outside of like, Jesus. I don't think that there's people that are, um, pulling people into maybe like a moral system. Like, like Christianity, right? Because I think, right, there's a lot of like secular men that don't look at the Bible or don't believe in God, but, um.

Do have like a moral example and I don't think that there's a lot of good male moral examples. Like Andrew Tate, you know, when I first started watching him, I thought he was pretty cool 'cause he was saying like a lot of cool things that were, you know, that I agreed with based on my own perspective. But, or you wanted to believe Yeah.

Then can, like seeing kind of like the aftermath of like some of his ideologies about things I could, I saw like men and boys take it to like a different level or, um, that was, that was inappropriate. Well I think it's another example of the pendulum swing. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. So I grew up in this, this time where, you know, my dad left our family, my mom didn't have a whole lot of skills and he ran off with the toys and to a new life and left mom to take care of some kids.

Yeah. Well. Uh, that was happening a lot in my generation where these women kind of dedicated their lives to their family and they got slapped in the face and really hurt. So I see like men were just really not behaving in great ways at that time. I. Right. And this was kind of after the sexual revolution where free love and it, you know, you can just kind of see where it started.

Mm-hmm. And then the pendulum swings are like, women are like, Uhuh, I'm not gonna take this. Yeah. I am gonna take care of myself. No man is gonna oppress me again. Yeah. And so you can see where there's like a fairness in it. But now we went so far again. Yeah. Where women are saying that men are unnecessary.

Yeah. Which there are moderate people and I like tend to forget that, but there are a lot of, 'cause it's really easy to pay attention to the extreme people, but man, like it, it is really true how that pendulum does swing. It does get extreme one way and then extreme the other way and then it just goes back and forth while, and it's almost kind of like a rat race of, um, whose turn it is to have the virtue, you know?

Exactly. But here's the problem with this radical thought that takes hold. It does change, it does take hold. Mm-hmm. Right? It does take hold. And it's just like the politics of where we were. Right. Last year even, um, I'm gonna probably get flamed for this. Like, it was too far, it was so far left, and I think in some ways we're going too far right now.

Mm-hmm. And I, I think it's concerning because I, why can't we just, you know, be balanced and moderate, but that's, anyway, that's what I believe. I, I believe a lot of this is based in a Marxism ideology. I believe that there's a victim. An oppressor, and I believe that they want justice. Okay. I don't think it came as in a wrong way, but the problem is you cannot legislate or force justice in the heart.

And the things that they wanna change are the hearts of men. The hearts of people. Yeah. Like over like a, like a generality statement of like all men or all women or all this too, you know? And, and the problem is with their brand of justice or their way of going about it is you take the part of Jesus that is really useful.

Right. He's full of grace. Mm-hmm. Well, yes he is. Yeah. But he is also full of truth and we don't get to transform. We don't get to grow into, you know, that reflection of him. If we are just taking a part of the Jesus that we like, if we're taking the part that says, so I'm gonna just say this, black liberation theology is really about, it's really anti-white and Yeah, you are supposed, you, you're supposed to want to kill them or have them die.

Oh. I mean, that's mean, it's a desire that that's, that's what they want because they believe the white people are Satan and Well, I think that some radicals have taken hold of that. Right. Yeah. And you can say that's on the other side too. You have the Ku Klux Klan, or the far right who are anti-Jewish, anti-black.

I just see it as like a big defense mechanism for something that happened and then it becomes like. Like a theology, it becomes an ideology. It becomes like a way of of life. Well, I, yes. In a defense mechanism. So when you look at these things like the underlying motive or, um, direction of what they believe is backed by hatred and anger.

Well, I think it started from wanting justice. Yeah. Right. That's where it started. And then I think they got angry at the oppression. It's really easy to call for justice, but it really hard to do it Right. You know? Right, right. 'cause the solution seems kind of hate-filled, right? Yeah. It doesn't feel. Like Jesus is involved in that at all.

To me, that's the opposite of who Jesus was. Yeah. And you know, he doesn't wanna kill anyone. He, he wants people to live and have a repentant heart and follow him. And I think that's it. It can be longer, it can be short, but it seems too long to people. Yeah. And it seems too hard to people so they don't think it'll happen.

So I think they took the justice into their own hands 'cause they didn't trust God to follow through with it. That's just my opinion. Yeah. So we really see the whole woke, the hyper grace culture that promotes this Jesus who approves of everything, right? Mm-hmm. Because we wanna gain the world's favor and it really is ignoring that balance of truth and grace and it, it.

Present some huge misconceptions about Jesus, right? Mm-hmm. That Jesus accepts everyone for who they are and doesn't call for change. Well, he did accept the woman at the well, right? Yeah. Um, he did accept the prostitute, but he did call her to change. Yeah. Yeah. Because he wants to lead us into transformation.

He wants us to be cleansed, and that is the problem with some of these church leaders that are telling us that it's okay to be part of all these sins. Mm-hmm. And why I, I do believe the church and even us sometimes want to have approval like in the, like the dwindling numbers in this post-Christian era.

They're willing to sacrifice truth, I believe, to have the numbers. That's a possibility, right? Because they want the approval of the people. Yeah. There's kind of a big desire for approval. Problem, I think in the modern world right now, and I think it's become people's, I like way of life. Um, you can kind of see it with like, um, the outraged, moral arbiters that like to tell people how to live their life, but they don't have a standard of morality to adhere to.

Um, and usually the, or I guess the more contemporary idea of my truth where, um, it is like a bit relative. And I believe that this is more for like all like these things, like when, when people get so outraged in like these big, like activist things or, or big speeches or whatever, it's all kind of like a, i I see it as a social offering.

Um, or like virtue signaling. Uh, kinda like what we're doing. I, I don't feel outraged. I think it's like that outraged, like, I'm so right and here's why and let's start a revolution. You know what I mean? But yeah, I feel like it's, it's a big, like, social offering to, to appeal to a certain tribe or a certain, like people for acceptance and for validation, because that becomes like the priority when it, um, 'cause I think like validation, acceptance is like a form of virtue can be very, um, useful and valuable if, like, for like profit, right?

One or two for, um. Like effective as like a means of feeling good about yourself for a moment, you know, but not effective long term for how you see yourself. Um, but it's interesting. So, well, let's talk about the profit at some point. Yeah. Because the, the, the big DEI guy just got found to be embezzling a ton of money.

Yeah. That was it really about helping people? No, probably not. It makes you think their whole thing was fake and that could go with, I could say the same about Christian pastors who take and are not fiduciary responsible mm-hmm. With the people's money. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Um, I kind of see like lukewarm Christians kind of going about it this way a lot of the time.

Um, like I know there, I've seen people around me or, um, people like in culture kind of. Manipulating scripture to kind of fit a more appealing narrative for people to be like, oh, he's a C This person's a Christian, but like, they're a cool Christian and like, they're okay with this. Right. You know what I mean?

They're okay with sin. Yeah. They're okay with sin. So like that lukewarm where they don't really want to be, um, too opinionated or bold for Christ in a certain way, but, um, Jesus light. Yeah. I would like to, I guess, kind of go over lukewarm Christian, because I think people take it outta context a lot. Um, yeah.

What, what do you think a lukewarm Christian is? Yeah. So like in Revelation three 16, like I see that verse more as like a rebuke. So it says, so because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold. I'm about to spit you outta my mouth. So the, the Church of Leo Deia, um. Is, is who Jesus is referring to at this point.

And, uh, these people were like really wealthy, like prosperity gospel, like mode all the way, but had a, uh, problem of like poor water supply. So they had nearby cities, um, Opolis who had hot springs, which was useful for healing, um, minerals, like really good for, um, like your bones, right? Um, and then Kase, which was like the opposite direction, had cold water for like drinking, um, also minerals.

Um, Leo Deia was lukewarm because they were like the meeting point between the hot and the cold water supplies and that water was useless. So, um, it's not that hot and cold or like bad by any means. Um. Even if like cold was like, oh, like I'm not on fire for God if I was cold. It's more of like, you are maybe more at a closer point to turn to God, where lukewarm, there is no, um, ability to like step into change.

You know, there, there are, they are ineffective and more useless. They don't have, um, like use for the kingdom. So the Greek word for spitting out was really kinda like vomit, which like sounds really harsh when you first hear it. Um, but it's more of a likely metaphor for like displeasure in rebuke. I'm not convinced that it's for eternal damnation, which I think people use it for.

Um, like a workspace theology where like, well if you're lukewarm and like you're, you're like, God's gonna spit you out of his mouth and you're gonna go to hell forever. Where that can create kind of like, maybe like a negative, um. Yes, I guess like thought or ideology. Um, but I think he's saying that like the self-reliant, spiritually immature and useless Christians like need to repent and, um, mm-hmm.

The Church of La Desia had an error of repentance and error of understanding for repentance and having like an intimate relationship with God. So I think that like a lukewarm Christian, um, is, is having an error with repentance when it comes to like, oh, I need to actually follow Jesus. And like, repentance is hard.

It's not like an easy thing. Like I'm willing to go do like every second of every day, right? Like, well, I want to be right, but it's not like the easiest thing in the world to. To, to be always in like a repentant state, always like a hundred percent of your life, like we're human, we're gonna mess up. But repentance is really just like changing your mind about like your own beliefs, right?

Like the, the Greek word metanoia means to change your mind. And it's, it's accepting that Jesus is always right and like, I'm off and wrong. So, and when Jesus writes like the moral standard, I'm gonna adhere to that the lukewarm Christian is having. A hard time like appealing to that because they want to be liked and approved of kind of like I was saying earlier, people want to be approved of and validated in like their social situation that they're willing to manipulate Ben's scripture for it.

I think that's one way for sure. But I think there's another way you can be a lukewarm Christian, right? Um, like I think what you described is right, but another reason why you would be, um, and when I see it when in my own life, it's when I didn't wanna give up my sin. It wasn't because I wanted to be liked, it's because I wanted my sin.

That too. Yeah, that too, that, I guess this is more of like the, um, the desire for approval when I see like a, you know, like a lukewarm Christian who's not like all the way sold. However, I do completely agree when people aren't willing to let go of sin or like actually pursue like Jesus in a true way.

Well, and I see, so just so we know the damage that's done. Mm-hmm. Okay. So this is another different Jesus you're following. It's the one who is, you know, okay. With you being lukewarm. 'cause he's not because why it hurts people. Yeah. So when I'm lukewarm, when I'm professing that I'm a Christian, but I'm out there doing my sin because even I, I think I probably knew better even.

Yeah. And. You know, I shouldn't be laughing. I'm should be disgusted, but how many people did I hurt who saw me walk in that sin? Yeah. Who said? She said she's a Christian. Hypocrisy, hypocrisy kills way more people and pushes way more people away from Christianity than a heresy. Yeah. Me just getting it wrong.

Right? Yeah. Like somebody who doesn't even believe is not hurting anybody from getting to the gospel. You can just look at 'em like, okay, they don't believe I get it, but somebody who says they believe and isn't walking or even trying to Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That, that's a, that's a tricky thing. That's, those are.

That's why I'm thinking, he said you'd rather be cold or hot. That middle place, yeah. Is, is really where the damage has done to God's people. It is self-reliant, it is comfortable, it is this, this and that. And like, I'm guilty of it sometimes, you know what I mean? Well it's, I think it's being stuck in the world still.

You're still in the world, so you need the world's approval. You're stuck in the world. 'cause you want the world. Yeah, yeah. If we're applying it in that context of like needing approval, right. Um mm-hmm. And it's scary because like as you do that and you, you talk to people about Jesus from willing to say like, oh, Jesus is okay with this, this is, and that like, oh, I'm a Christian, but this is cool with me.

You know, you are if, if you are trying to like. Approach people or like tell people about Jesus and maybe you wanted to bring them to Jesus. Once they come to actually find out who Jesus is, they're gonna think that like, one, you're a liar. Two, this is wrong. That they might even be like more turned off for it, you know?

Or they might be led astray into like a certain situation that is like theologically bad, you know? Well, and the, this is the problem of not knowing his word and not aligning with his word. Mm-hmm. And not going to church. You don't get corrected. So I wasn't corrected for a long time. Yeah. I created a whole crazy Jesus that doesn't even exist.

It's, it's a lack of knowledge. And that's also probably, you know, what creates a lukewarm, because the more you know about Jesus, the more you realize what he's done for you and what he came to do. What that means. Like the deeper that deeper meaning that you're saved, restored, reconciled, that there's grace over your life, you are forgiven, that there's a whole redemption package available to you, that you don't have to live like in chaos anymore.

That you get to live in peace even when the storms come and that you actually start doing some of those things. Life is really good with that. And like evangelism, I feel like it should be kind of like started at the cross because like this had to happen because you were in sin. Because we fell because of sin.

This was like the consequence. But God loved you so much that he came down to like carry the cross and die on a torture instrument, basically. You know what I mean? For you? For you, for me. Because he loved you. Yeah. Yeah. And he calls you to follow him in that. And it's not just about like, 'cause there's just a big, um, contention with like modern I, uh.

Like identity politics or, and just weird things that are so, um, separate from like Christian thought or, um, and like what Jesus and God wants for us. You know what I mean? People make that their religion and then you have an opportunity to be like, Hey, this is why I believe this and, and to give like the honest, like Unadultered version of it and, and stand on it.

Or you could bend it. And then you're teaching somebody something that's not truth. And then like, if, like, so I have a question then, you know, if you like, do you like actually believe in Jesus if you're willing to do this? Like, do you really believe in Jesus? Because again, to your point earlier, you might just not know about Jesus.

You might not know enough about Jesus to really like be there, you know, to, to really like mm-hmm. 'cause I think that you could believe in like a 85% true version of Jesus. But what you were saying earlier with half truths, I don't know what it means to believe in something that's like, not actually Jesus, you know, for, for your salvation, for your walk, for your life, you know?

So like, do you actually believe in Jesus? Or like, are you believing like the one that you created in order to be accepted by the world? I agree. That's the Jesus I had because I wanted to be accepted by him, my friends. Mm-hmm. And by the world. So I wouldn't even really speak about him. Yeah. I mean, I would sometimes if I had been drinking, I might, I, I grew up like as a Christian obviously, and then I fell away and became more new age.

But it was more like, oh, I still believe in Jesus, but I, I never like really read the Bible. Like I read like a children's version of it when I was little, but I, I didn't know who Jesus was. I didn't know like. I read Matthew, like that was the first like actual like bible book that I read, and I was like, whoa, this is so much different than I thought it would be.

And I am like kind of scared for myself now, especially like the, you know, Matthew chapter seven and stuff, Lord, Lord, yeah. Literally. Yeah, exactly. Depart from me, right? Like, I read that verse and I was like, whoa, am I going to hell? Like, oh no. And, and um, it, it, it's interesting like I was so forward about Jesus being like, oh yeah, I love Jesus.

And I'm like, I like, I'm a Christian. Like it's okay if like people are gay, like, and get married. Like, it doesn't really matter to me. I guess. It doesn't. Yeah. Like it, yeah, it doesn't necessarily matter to me unless you're, you're dealing with it or if. Yeah. I, I, I think when we look at society and we think of if people are getting hurt by it, it matters.

Yeah. It doesn't like matter to me specifically, but like, ah, I don't think it would be that wrong. I don't think air gay marriage is wrong, eh, I understand abortion and I get it. Or like trans people or all these things where like identity politics, because like I was working at a liberal bar at the time and like everybody believed this.

Everybody believed in like this ideology and these kinds of things. And I was like, well, like I'm a Christian. And like I grew up with conservative parents, like, why do, why did I believe that? Like, oh, I'm like 20 now. Maybe I should just start questioning the things that like my parents taught me, because there's a whole nother world out there.

And, and then I start asking people like, why they believe, what they believe, why are they thinking these things? And it's starting to make sense to me, but it's such like a, it's a shallow response. Like it's a shallow thing because I'm like, oh yeah, like, like you said, like, oh, like I can't understand like why God would be like, not cool with this.

You know? Like, I think it's cool. And then, but you can see right there, I just made God into an image of what I thought should be, I, I, I twist, I bent his arm into my own version of what I think morality should be, instead of the unchanging morality, the unchanging standard, the objective morality that's been set.

'cause I'm often wrong. He's always right. But you can't be like, it's hard to be convinced of that, especially as like an atheist or something, you know? Well, and that kinda leads me into the legalism. Yeah. That happens. And I think this is where a lot of church hurt happens. Yeah. Um, I think hypocrisy is the biggest church hurt.

And then I think legalism is a close tie to how we hurt people in the church. Yeah. And, and misre misrepresent Jesus. Um, I. It's, you know, the, we have these rigid moral codes that we wanna live by, and there's, there's great, great words here in the book, right? Yeah. The problem is, is Jesus didn't prioritize the law over mercy.

Mm-hmm. He prioritized mercy and grace over the law, and my proof is on the Sabbath. Yeah. Um, so when he, he healed, I, I counted nine, there might be more than that. Stories where he healed on the Sabbath. Yeah. And the rules were clearly against any work on the Sabbath and the Pharisees really wanted to trip him up.

They wanted him to confess that he had done work on the Sabbath and he put their rules back in their plate and they couldn't do anything about it 'cause of their hypocrisy, of their rules that, hey, uh, don't you guys take care of your animals on the Sabbath? Isn't that work? Mm-hmm. And. And it, you know, you kind of put it back in their plate, but this is the problem with legalism.

Right. I just wanna one say that legalism is wrong. Jesus wasn't for it. Yes. We have grace and mercy and it seems like Jesus had a whole bunch of common sense. If somebody needed to be healed and it was a Sabbath, he was gonna do it. Yeah. Okay. And I'm not saying we don't have a Sabbath, we don't rest. I'm not saying that don't get crazy.

I'm legalist out there. But, but those, that legalism that happens like within a church as a whole, that I see, um, maybe within my church, my church doesn't, you know, that's not part of their church. But we get people who come in and who are students at the Bible college who have been exposed to this. And it's really hard to get that mindset of grace.

Mm-hmm. When you, um, have experienced so much legalism. 'cause it's what it is. It is so much truth without the grace. Yeah. And so. I think what I see in personalities of people who have been hurt by the church and are venturing back in is a fear of who God is. That he's this authoritarian, um, not real loving God.

Yeah. You know, because 'cause there's no grace, right? There's no grace. So there's no, there's no forgiveness. There's no, even, even though we're forgiven in the Bible, they don't really focus on that. They focus on the rules. Yeah. And I think. Those are the people who seem to kind of be wanting to do the works.

That if they just do enough then God will love 'em and they never seem to be reassured in their faith of who they are. Yeah. That they are loved and they are forgiven and you know, that doesn't mean we don't repent and turn away from sin just 'cause we have that grace. 'cause that's the truth. We need to be keeping, you know, the transformation going, working out our salvation, moving glory to glory.

That's the expectation Jesus has of us. Yeah. But. The legalism is, is certainly, um, a problem and that is not who Jesus was. And if you are sharing that, Jesus, you are not going to be, this is a dying church, would be a legalistic church because your guys is, you kids aren't just not having it, dude. Yeah.

Because yeah, our generation like gen or Gen Z is very like, big on relationship and love and like trying to have like Yeah, like I, I hear all the time, um, which I believe is true, is like, like Christianity is like a re like, like a relationship with Jesus, like is not religion, you know? Which like, kind of like understand, like understand where they're coming from and like, because like the term religion and religious has kinda become like.

A no, no word. A bad word. And like, even in my brain, like I think it too, you know me too. But like, 'cause 'cause you have all these rules and like, you read the Bible and they're like, oh, okay, well it's saying don't do that and do this. It, it's very legalism is very synonymous to me in the way that it's, uh, a works-based theology, right.

Where you have to perform. Mm-hmm. You have to follow these rules or else you're gonna go to hell. I know a church where somebody came in with tattoos and they were like, well, you gotta pray for him, or he is gonna go to hell because he's got these tattoos, you know? Oh, wow. People. But it's like the same people that like are gossiping, you know what I mean?

So these are the same people attacking gay people? Yeah. Okay. They're not, they're not bringing people to the gospel. 'cause that's what we're called to do. Go and teach the gospel. Share the gospel. They're going and condemning people. Yeah. Well it's, it's very like, it's hypocritical and Risa like, every time, you know, it's very like.

I am righteous because I follow the rules without looking at myself and realize that I, like, if I really take a hard look, I probably messed up like 10 times already today, you know? Mm-hmm. Like we're, we're supposed to spend like 20, like all of our time, never seizing in prayer, you know? I don't think any of us do like everything with God and never sees in prayer.

You know what I mean? You know? That is so true. This is a complete sidetrack, but I was at the church yesterday and we were praying over this lady and her issue reminded me of something that was going on in my life, and of course to help her and to counsel her, I am leading her to prayer. Right? We're leading to prayer.

And it was interesting because I have a similar issue in my life and with somebody, and I haven't even prayed about it. Mm-hmm. Like. And this is what I tell people. This is what I go to. I mean, when we have a problem, Ty, do I just say, let's pray about it right now. And we pray about it. Yeah, dude, every time it's awesome.

It is really bizarre to have this big problem and to not pray for it. It, what happened was it was becoming a bigger issue because I wasn't sharing it with God because I wanted to fix it. 'cause I wanted it fixed. 'cause I thought that person should fix it. Mm-hmm. But when I gave it to God, what you just said.

It really, it hasn't changed, but it alleviated the pressure from me. The stress and chaos from my mind. Yeah. Yeah. Which is why we ca cast our cares on him. But yeah, with like, like legalism, you know, like, no, no one is righteous, not one, you know, there's all these things people are willing to point fingers and be, you're not doing, doing good enough.

You're not following the rules enough. You are not being this way. You don't act like a Christian. You don't look like a Christian, you, you, you, without looking at themselves and realizing that they're being a problem. So the people that are getting pointed at are like, why would I ever want to be a part of that when I'm like doing just fine over here?

You know? And so if we all just represented the true Jesus, the one of love, grace, mercy. Yeah. Peace, hope, victory freedom. Uh, the world would look different, right? Yeah. But that's the problem is these are not representations and we're humans showing up. And then I think the other problem is there's definitely no grace.

Yeah. For you if you're not a Christian from a, from a non-Christian looking at us, there is just, there's very minimal grace. Yeah, exactly. For our, that it takes a minute to transform. Yeah. And I'm not saying that we don't deserve the heat we get many, much of the time. We do. Mm-hmm. Because many of us are misrepresenting Jesus.

Yeah. In a big way. Yeah. And another way is even in our political views. Okay. So, um, if you spend any time on X Oh, it's a bad place. It's digital Sodom Gamora. That is so true. Um, you can really see everything we've said. Yeah. But you can really see that. There is a need to, um, have Jesus on your side. But what cracks me up like this is just a side note too, is the political left will often use Jesus.

And then you'll see atheist in their bio, like they don't even believe in Jesus, but they're gonna use Jesus against you. Yeah. Which is, I always think, um, humorous to, to watch. But what is interesting is both sides will tie Jesus to their side politically. Even an atheist on the left will tie his cause to that Jesus would do this.

Right. Jesus would feed the poor. Yeah. Like, what's wrong with you people? Why don't you wanna feed the poor? Well, it's kind of a weird thing because of course we wanna feed the poor Christians do and large amounts of numbers feed the poor. It's, it's kind of something that we do do. Mm-hmm. But their, their view is that we, because we don't want governments hand in all of this.

Meaning we obviously I'm a conservative who didn't know that yet. Um, anyway, we don't want government's big hand in feeding the poor because I believe personally that it will get corrupted and round anyway. So do I feel like me feeding the poor directly is a better choice? Me, you know, our church who makes burritos and feeds the homeless and a ton of churches who do this, do I, would I rather see that?

Yes, all day long? I think that they'll get way more than if you. Drain all of our bank accounts and let the government take most of it and, you know, just piecemeal it a little bit. Yeah. Like, you know, if you don't believe me, go look at California in the homeless situation and the billions of dollars that they have received to help the homeless.

And nothing has changed. Not even a little bit. Yeah. Like, I think it's kind of a common theme for like the left to really like, well just throw more money on it and it'll fix it. But like, look at the education system. It was like 20 or like, uh, and uh, Charlie Kirk said some statistic, or I don't know if it was him, but it was like.

10 ish or so, something years ago, like it was like 10, around 10 billion, $10 million was like given to like the Department of Education. Um, like mm-hmm. Just last year, something like that. It was like 80 billion or 80 million or something like that. It might've been million or billion. I, I'll put, I'll put the things in the, on the screen, the stat, but, um, it's just kinda crazy, like throwing money at things just doesn't work ever.

Well, I, I just, this is what I can't comprehend since we're talking about politics, why they think the government is gonna help or fix anything or make anything better, they just do not have a good record. Um, and I think that's the misunderstanding. You know, they, they think, what, what is wrong with you?

Cold people? Well, it's not that we're cold, we just don't agree with your method of how this is gonna work, because we've seen proof that it doesn't really work well. Well, it's, it's, it's black and white thinking, right. Well, like, okay. People are like, okay, I'm either left or I'm right, and then, okay, I'm left.

Or, and now everything I gotta say, like, I have to agree with all the left because I ha like I have, uh, subscribed to this tribe, basically. And now I like, and then Jesus agrees with this because this Oh, that's, that's a great point because both sides will say you can't believe in God if you vote for this guy or this girl.

Yeah. Like they both say it. Yeah. When, okay. I'm not voting for a savior. I already have one. I'm voting for the person who best represents what I believe the direction of the country should go. And it do. I think that there is a perfect human. No. Do I think that there's a better candidate out there?

Probably they're, yes. But they wouldn't if a better person wouldn't run for office. Right, right. That's funny. Anyway, so. So you, you see both sides using this. So the the right would say that Jesus wants us to take personal responsibility and if you're not doing that, then you know you're not doing right either.

Well, some people can't. Yeah. Some people truly can't. And we need to help those people rise up. 'cause that is our burden to help people, um, who cannot help themselves. Mm-hmm. And I think that message gets a little messy on the right as well. Well, it's like, it's just black and white thinking again. You know, people are like, well, I gotta be this way all the way, or be this way or all the way and it's gotta be this all the way or this all the way.

It's like, yeah, people should, like, we should feed the poor. Like, that sounds like a great idea, but also like, we should teach people how to be accountable like that. It's not like it has to be this way or has to be this way. People just like get sold a story that it has to be this way or it has to be this way.

And if it's not gonna be this way, it's evil, you know? Well, and I think that's the problem. And this is me being political right now, but what I see. There doesn't seem to be long-term thought from kind of these woke ideas of how to change things. And when I say woke, um, well, I'll just say Marxist ideas from the feminism to all of these, the, all the woke Jesus ideas don't make sense to me.

And the reason they don't make sense is 'cause basically I'm gonna have to tear somebody up for me to get where I wanna go. Yeah. I'm gonna have to step on somebody to get where I wanna go, whether that's Jesus or somebody else. Yeah. Well it's all backed by a theology of Jesus. All of these ideas are Yeah.

And they have changed Jesus to be this person who's okay with this. Yeah. That he's okay with the violence. He's okay with you bombing a Tesla car. He's okay with that. Mm-hmm. And the problem was, okay, so that's a lie. Yeah. He's not okay that he's not okay. No matter what situation you're in. He has called us to be honorable and submit.

That's who he's called us to be. Those who honor get honored that, that's just what it is. Sorry guys. This is a hard word for everybody. Those who humble themselves will be exalted. Exactly. And we're supposed to love one another. Yeah. And this is the second problem I see is people don't actually know what that means.

Yeah. They, they think it is a feeling they have, they don't understand that there are words and actions that go with it. Mm-hmm. And you know, the patience, the kindness, the gentleness, um, the truth. But those go together. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and Jesus' word is truth. Yeah. Do you have any other ideas you wanna add on why you think we got here?

The, uh, the last one I got for sure is, uh, subjective morality. Um, I kinda did explain like I was a Christian younger, um. As I got a little bit older, I kind of took a, a step away. Like I started hanging out with more worldly people. Um, I had a, like I said, a weak understanding of who Jesus was. Um, when I was young, I had a very vibrant relationship with God.

That was like very real, but like, as like, I started to become like a late teenager, like, not so much. You really did. I was so worried about you when you'd wear your Jesus rules t-shirt to school. I was like, oh, he is gonna get his butt kicked or kicked outta school. I'd like, I didn't wanna tell you, but I was so afraid you'd wanna wear it all the time.

And I was like, I was so proud of you. It was like, you go. But I was so scared. Yeah. Like I, I was baptized at eight and like, I, I do really, truly believe I was like saved in that moment. And that was like a real, like genuine faith, you know? But I, I never really, like, I read like the child's version of the like Bible after that, but like, didn't finish it, didn't like really understand like the, the theme, the gospel, like all these things.

Right. Um. Eventually I got older and then surrounded myself with people with different world beliefs and, and values and different, um, ways to think about things I wanted to fit in. I was pretty desperate for attention and, and approval and validation. I submitted to that. There's, there's like so many, um, like diehard opinions for things in this world right now, um, that the Bible completely rejects and I couldn't wrap my mind around it because like, like you were saying with like gay people, right?

Like I can't wrap my mind around like why God would have a problem with this. Because it's like I was having a black and white thinking moment where like, well, if it's wrong then black, like people are gonna go to hell. Like gay people are gonna go to hell. Where, you know what I mean? Where I thought like, like this whole like big jump where it was more of like, no, like being gay is something that maybe like.

Or that is something that's wrong in the Bible, but doesn't mean we shouldn't, like, extend grace and live towards them regardless. Right. It doesn't mean there isn't like a way around it. And everybody else around me though was telling me that like with abortion, with all like these really like hard to talk about topics like what is right from their point of view from the left.

And it was kind of a, a very like overwhelming majority response that all these people believed this and that I should believe it too. It was the world, right? Um. Mm-hmm. As I met Nicole, my wife, um, we decided to really pursue like a real, um. Or I guess give Christianity another chance again and gave it like a real shot.

Um, I read the New Testament and man, I was floored by what I read. Like I said, I read Matthew, it was like the first book I read and I was like, oh, I'm going to hell. Like, you know, um, and, and I realized like the, the big point that I was missing was like, objective morality. Um, I will note too, you also found an amazing Bible teaching church called The Pillar in Scottsdale dude.

Yeah. So, yeah, I, yeah, so I think there was a combination. I just didn't, I wanted to like, let people know it wasn't just that you read, you were also involved in church. Yeah. That, that church has been very helpful for me. Um, just with out, even out outside of like reading the Bible, I got to learn like the love of God, like the romantic version of God.

The, the like, the true like understanding, like. Or not sure understanding, but like I had a very deep revelation for like who God was after that and like how much he cares for me, how much he loves me. And like that we are gonna spend like eternity together in like a deep, intimate relationship, which is sick.

Um, but let's praise God. Yeah, like that along with, um, like reading things in the New Testament, like in Matthew, like a, a big point that I was missing, like outside of like God loving me first, right? Was um, that there is like an objective morality to like the world that we live in. Um, I was all into opinions of like what things should be and what things shouldn't be without like, the moral, moral ramifications of them and not even really adhering to like a moral standard for it.

So, um, like relative morality, um, is more like my truth, right? It's my truth that this chair is seven feet high and upside down right now. You know what I mean? Okay. That you're sitting in. Okay, gotcha. It's obviously wrong, right? There is like an objective truth to things. You know, um, like relative morality says like, murder and terrorism aren't necessarily bad or good things.

They're just things that happen and your feeling towards them is a preference, but it's not necessarily good or bad. And I started to understand and really think about this concept of like, oh, like for God, like, like without God, everything would just be like primordial ooze. Like there would be no meaning to anything.

Everything would be super relative. Um, there wouldn't be no good or bad. And like ultimately like. I could like live my life like GTA if I wanted. And that does not did Are you being like Grand Theft Auto? Yeah. Okay. Like the video game, it, it's more of like, like a personal or even a national preference at that point.

Right. For like what is productive for society. Um, but I realized like with like objective morality, I was like, there is like good and bad. Like we're ob it's obvious that like murder's good and bad or, or it's obvious that murder is bad. It's obvious that like, love is good. It's obvious of these things.

Is it because some people don't believe it's bad anymore? Yeah. Yeah. Well people are subscribing to it and at least they're being intellectually honest that, you know, these things aren't bad or good, you know? 'cause lot of It's interesting, huh? That is like a big Trump for people that, um, like our atheist, I think in my personal opinion that, um.

Like, oh, you can't really say like anything's good or bad anymore. It's just all a preference. And then they're, you know, I think that's the big Trump card for it. Um, if you're gonna do apologetics with atheists. Yeah. If you're doing apologetics with atheists, my favorite, good luck. I realize, like, how could I say anything was right or wrong at this point?

How, how could I say the, like, well, you know, being abortions, like, I don't think it's like really that wrong in like certain, like, situations or, um, just different circumstance. Like, like opinionated, um, controversial contentional. I. Thoughts of modern society, how could I even say that that's right or wrong?

If I didn't have a moral standard to adhere to, how could I say that? How could I make that point and then tell somebody else what is right and wrong if I did not have a moral standard to adhere to, otherwise it would just me being like, well, my preference says this and I'm right because of my preference.

Coming to like this realization that like if like objective morality like was true, then there is like a truth that like, and a true standard out there. Um, not only do I think that Christianity is like the best option because of historical, you know, findings or whatever, um, but I really do believe having like a real authentic relationship with God, it is real.

I've had real experiences. Every Christian that I know has had like a real authentic relationship and real authentic experience where they really felt God, um. I mean, you can, you can probably find one pretty fast. So he's, yeah, he's open. We just ask, seek and knock. And he shows up. Well, you said something that was interesting about Yeah, go for it.

Society even. Mm-hmm. Like, there's even pr proof maybe of what you're saying to be true. That, I mean, God's laid his hand on all of our hearts. Yeah. It's up to us if we want to harden our hearts or, or follow that leading, um, because he's a gentleman. 'cause he's not gonna, you know, beat us up and make us follow him, and this is why he's such a good God.

Mm-hmm. It's the freedom, it's the freedom of that choice. Yeah. But if you look at our society, which was based on Christian Judeo values, which, um, that that's the new current thing too. People want to pretend like that's not real. I know even, even Christians and, and you can see there's proof, like even Harvard, um, at, at the beginning was.

You know, promoting Christianity. Are you serious? It was crazy. Just, yeah, it was a Christian school. Everything was Christian. I, when you tell me stuff, you're like, I can't believe how, like I just saw like an atheist sticker on this person's car. Like, if somebody did that before, it would've been all, all heck breaking loose.

Yes. That just didn't exist in my, in my childhood. Like, it would, you would've been, maybe they were atheists, but they didn't talk, they didn't say it out loud. I guess. You were in a small town too. Well, I did. I mean, I lived in Arizona and in Wyoming. Oh, true. Both places. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't remember. Um.

Anyone would say they didn't believe in God. Even the rock stars would talk about God and their music. Yeah. Even when they did, you know, some weird stuff. So you can see how society has changed over time. Right. And I don't know what the happiness meter was back then, but this is what I do know, you know, since feminism, since all of these things have taken place, women and these groups are the unhappiest they've ever been.

I've heard that and Yep. And if you look at how we've taken Christ out of everything, even Christmas and taken God, I mean, we've really just taken God out of everything. And we are living in a post-Christian era where, you know, the churches do have declining numbers, which is another reason I said, like I said earlier, that I think, um, they're willing to conform, the church is willing to conform to get rid of the real Jesus so they can get those numbers back up.

That is proof of what you're saying. Yeah. That they're, that. Christ is obviously the better. Like when we included him and God, our world was better. Yeah. When we got rid of God. You can see the loneliness, the unhappiness, the depression, the anxiety has been increased. Mm-hmm. And that also fits the agenda of the whole Marxist agenda that started in the sixties and seventies.

To destroy a culture, you have to tear it down. And that is the, that is the goal. We're they're just doing it in multiple areas and institutions right now. Yeah. Well also at the same time too, that like, there is kind of a revival going on right now. Like Bible sales are like super up right now, which is cool.

Um, incidentally, let's just mention that right here we do sell Bibles. Here's our pretty Shiloh name in NLT. Um, and this is how we support this channel. So, um, if you are looking for a new Bible or a gift for somebody, please check us [e-mail]. Anyway. So I think there's huge danger in, um, distorting Jesus, right?

Because we're molding Jesus to fit our desires and then we lose track of the real savior. Yeah. Um, society's version of Jesus leaves out always some key component, and it's usually grace or truth it seems like. Yeah. That wholeness is the necessity of understanding who he is. I kind of brought this up to you before, but it's almost like a friction, right?

Like. People go far one way or far the other way, but it's really like a moderate friction of both, where it's like, yes, you're saved by grace through faith, but you are also saved by grace through faith for works, right? Like you were called to like mm-hmm. You were saved by him and he saved you and he loves you, but you're also like supposed to follow him.

You know what I mean? Yes. And I think that's the problem is, yeah. Is if every one of these Christians who is subscribed to one of these false religions. Even like, we didn't even mention this, but I wanted to, the Prosperity Gospel. Uh, just recently Paula White was on, did you see that? She's saying for just the low, low cost of a thousand dollars, you too can be blessed.

You can buy your blessing and just guess, guess where to send that money? You just send it to my ministry and you'll be blessed. This is so far from what Jesus, I heard someone say, um, or a church say like, you can buy your spot in heaven. Oh my gosh. Like, buy your lot there. Just have to pay it through their church.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so stupid. Dude. It's so silly. Oh, it's so embarrassing. As, as a Christian, it's so embarrassing. Yeah. And so, so wrong. I'm hoping she just said it wrong, but I did listen to it and it was, it was everything that people complain about the Prosperity Gospel is, and I'm not saying that God doesn't want us, I mean, he doesn't want us to be in love with money.

Yeah. Okay. He doesn't want that, but he's okay for you working hard and taking care of your family. Yeah. And using his resources to help build the kingdom of God. You cannot buy your way into heaven, and you cannot buy blessings. That's just not what you do. God, God's, God's not for sale. We wanna give and do, like you were saying, and respond to our faith.

Yeah. Okay. We're not doing it because Paula says we're gonna get to heaven. We're not gonna do it because we wanna earn our way into heaven, right? Mm-hmm. Like you just said, we can't earn our way, but we do respond with works. Yeah. Well, it's like gratitude. We do respond because, well, again, we want other people to join us.

We want, we want our friends to be saved and our family members. And you know, and I think about it, even like my, the worst enemy I ever had, I had this arch nemesis and, um, she wasn't really an enemy, but she, she was really mean to me. And I, I used to think. Because she was really mean, and we did some business deals.

I have never experienced somebody that, to that level of just, she must have hated me for some reason. And I even thought about her, like, I thought about what hell looks like. If you've ever had the pleasure read the 23 minutes in hell, it gives a really good picture of what hell looks like and it's, it's backed by scripture.

I thought about her and would I want her in that position and I, no, I would not, I don't want my, anybody in hell, nobody. I mean, it would be half to hard argument with me for pedophiles, but I, I, I know that that's something wrong within me, that I can't forgive them. So yeah, the real, the real Jesus. Would want me to, the real Jesus would want me to be love, that I could transform them, that they would want what I had.

Yeah, right. Instead of trying to fill their hole up with their sin. That's the dream. That's, that's the dream. I did wanna add to this, there was, there is a rash of women, Methodist priests, priestess pastors, I don't know what you call them, um, who are really spreading some herital information. So there is a scripture in the Bible where a woman's wanting her child to get healed and Jesus basically says, you're a dog.

And she, they, they are as a whole. I'm seeing multiple women doing this now and saying that what Jesus did was wrong. It, it was not wrong. They're misunderstanding and not understanding that scripture at all. They're not understanding what he said. Which also leads me to wonder if the Holy Spirit is leading them.

She starts out by talking about God, um, maybe being a she or, you know, having plural pronouns. There's, I don't know, there's something about it that is so sacrilegious that was so hard for me. And then both of them went on the last two that I watched to dis explain. So, which tells me this is something that they're getting from somewhere and it's not God, um, that maybe this verse is just.

Showing the humanity and not the divinity of God. Like this is the lesser form of Jesus. Oh, that's crazy. Okay. Like he's just not up to, up to snuff in this scripture. 'cause he's just showing who he is as a human and not as the divine. And I lost my marbles right then and, and I was thinking of all of the things I wanted to comment.

But if this is true, which it's not, um, Jesus is the divine. Um, if that is true, then the cross didn't happen. And we don't have a savior because we needed a spotless lamb. We needed a sinless lamb. And if they're trying to say that Jesus was in sin, there he was not. Jesus was sinless, spotless lamb that came to die for us.

Jesus was a man, not a girl, just in case you didn't know. And Jesus did not have multiple. Pronouns and Jesus did not have two fathers, which are also things that these ladies like to say. So just to correct the truth of the gospel, and it also is not me hating them to correct them. It's not hating someone to correct and and speak a truth.

We do it gently. We do it in love, and that's what we do. That's who Jesus was. Jesus was radical, he was divine. He was transformative. And why? Because he came and he spoke in a gentle way. He came and he offered a way out and he came and he offered love. He is our resurrected savior. He's our redeemer. We are co-heirs with him in the kingdom of God.

And he is so full of grace and truth, and he is calling us into deeper and deeper still relationship with him. But he also challenges up to us to pick up our cross and deny ourselves and follow him. He isn't here to fit our ideologies or our lifestyles. He's here to transform our hearts and lead us into that abundant life of peace and joy, even in those storms.

The real Jesus isn't a creation of our culture or our comfort or a pacifier. He is the one scripture reveals. And if you've been falling a distorted version of Jesus, the good news is that there is real Jesus and he hasn't changed. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Praise God. Because now that means you can also trust him that his word is good.

Today is good, was good yesterday, and it was good when they wrote it. Okay, so to rediscover him or to discover him for the first time, read his word. Like Tyler said, reading the gospels changed his life. Seek him in prayer and let him challenge and refine you, because that is where all the good stuff happens.

Not in your comfort zone, not in what you think is right, but what he thinks is right. And I love that song. I Am Who He Says I Am, because that, that just allows me to be who he created me to be. He wants to know you. He wants to be known by you, not as you imagine him to be, but who he truly is. The question is, will you let him?

I wanna thank all of you for joining us today on the show. Um, praise God. If you're here to the end, we, we love it and we're so excited to have you and we really appreciate your support. Thank you.