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Welcome to The Foster Friendly Podcast. We’re bringing foster care closer to home by sharing stories from the front lines. We're talking with former foster youth, foster parents and others who are finding unique and powerful ways to dramatically improve the experiences and outcomes for kids in foster care.
The Foster Friendly podcast is brought to you by America’s Kids Belong, a nonprofit that helps kids in foster care find belonging in both family and community.
Courtney (00:02.799)
we're live. It must just be automatic. There's no countdown. I was like waiting for a countdown. I didn't see a count. I didn't see a countdown. That was weird. Okay. Well, here we go. Welcome to the Foster Friendly Podcast. My name is Courtney Williams, one of your hosts, along with my co-host, Travis Vongzness. And today we have Shenandoah Sheffalo with us. She is an author, a speaker, a consultant, and an advocate for trauma-informed human-centered systems change.
Travis (00:04.342)
We're all No ther there was on mine, but I don't know. Okay. Weird.
Courtney (00:31.437)
She draws from her lived experience in foster care and her work with child welfare, education, government, nonprofit, and human service organizations, and helps lead leaders create cultures rooted in trust, safety, dignity, and belonging. She is also an author of a book called Garbage Bag Suitcase, a memoir, and also Best Bunny: The Adventures of Little Shen and her inspirational sidekick, Best Bunny. So welcome to the podcast, Shenandoah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (00:59.327)
Courtney, Travis, thanks so much for having me on.
Travis (01:02.318)
Great to have you.
Courtney (01:03.935)
Yeah, before we jump into the hardest podcast, tell us a little bit about Shenandoah and what your life looks like on a day-to-day basis.
Shenandoah Chefalo (01:11.687)
Yeah, it's such a great question, right? I I think I have the immense privilege, at least I feel like it's a privilege, that no two days look the same for me. And maybe that's good for me with the way that I grew up, but I I would not be good in a cubicle. So I would I would probably lose my mind. So I get to do a mix of all kinds of really fun things, including speaking and writing, and I spend a
Awful lot of time on Delta airplanes, working in organizations and doing all of that while also trying to manage my own self, right? Like I'm always working on my own self-improvement. And what I kind of think is at the heart of everything, if you said, okay, but what does the all of that really mean? It's like for me, it's about moving people from survival to stability and eventually to belonging. Like that's
Travis (01:51.16)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (02:05.346)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (02:08.371)
But I think if we say that up front, like, we're gonna move from surviving to thriving, it's like, ooh, there's a lot of like gray stuff in between there that I think we we sometimes try to skip over. So I get this joy of just writing books and resources, a lot of space to think. And and my real heart work is being with people to help them translate all that science we've been accumulating into doing the work differently now.
Travis (02:19.614)
Mm.
Courtney (02:37.528)
That's fun. I I love the same thing of being able to do multiple things and different different days. Every day looks different. So it's not monotonous. And the same thing over and over gets you into creative space.
Shenandoah Chefalo (02:43.635)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (02:47.303)
Yeah. It it it's sort of like, what's what's on the list for today? All right, we're recording a podcast, let's go, right? So every day gets to be different. And I think that's what's exciting about kind of day to day in my life.
Travis (02:51.83)
No. Let's go.
Courtney (02:52.788)
Yeah.
Travis (03:01.122)
Yeah. Well, I I can get down with that as well. So I need a lot of variety. really great setup. love where this is already going. So the the focus of today's episode is really going to be on grief and loss. And there's so many different things we could talk about, but that's really going to be the focus and how communities can help support that grief and loss. So as someone who's lived this experience in this area, Shenandoah, share about your own journey somewhat and and how that led you to where you are today.
Shenandoah Chefalo (03:06.666)
Ha ha.
Shenandoah Chefalo (03:15.028)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (03:20.916)
No.
Shenandoah Chefalo (03:29.205)
Yeah, I don't I don't want to take a lot of time on my own journey. And probably lots of people feel this way. I sometimes I feel like I've talked about it so much that it's actually not even my story. It feels like other people's stories now. But, you know, my journey through foster care. So briefly, I entered foster care at 13. I aged out into homelessness at 18. I I aged out halfway through my senior year of high school. And what that taught me is that.
People survive a lot. Like survival, right? Not the same as healing. And that systems often add grief to that journey. And when systems only focus on things like placement or compliance or behavior, which is something that kind of always bubbles up under the surface, we miss safety, we miss connections, we miss dignity. We kind of miss all of those people.
And so for me, it it's when I think about my journey, and listen, it's been a long time since I turned 18. Okay. I'm on the other end of that spectrum. It was not yesterday. But perhaps one of the things that really sticks with me is when I'm talking to kids in the system today or newly aging out of the system and transitioning youth, not much has changed.
Courtney (04:37.496)
Wasn't yesterday.
Travis (04:37.633)
Mm-hmm.
Ha
Shenandoah Chefalo (04:56.445)
That's also like a very scary thing to say for me, because you want to say, like, all this work has meant something. But I think the system protects itself a lot, right? That that it thinks it's doing the things and what people really need is so nuanced. And in that piece of grief, Travis, that you missed, systems don't want to talk about grief.
Travis (05:22.958)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (05:23.463)
And and grief doesn't happen on a timeline. Grief doesn't happen in your 90-day review session. Grief doesn't happen in the in these really nice, neat boxes. And we can make progress on grief and slide backwards, right? People, families, individuals, communities. And then we can make some more progress. And it, you know, and then we veer off to another path, but then we're back into grief. And so I think for me, it's that long-term effect.
that still shows up. And that our uncomfortability with even talking about grief and the long term impacts of grief are kind of what keep us trapped in that not a lot has changed in the system, even though we've tried a lot of new things.
Travis (05:54.798)
Yes.
Travis (06:12.202)
Well, well, I love what you said too, just about because you think about a system that, you know, we talk about is overwhelmed much of the time, you know, caseloads are just, you know, and and burnout and all those kind things. And grief, to your point, is one of those like trajectories that it's not there isn't an efficiency, you know, knocked us out by, you know, this quota. You know, it's like there's so many reasons I think why, yeah, grief and then the foster care system, maybe it doesn't feel like they're compatible at times.
Shenandoah Chefalo (06:21.855)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (06:39.373)
Yeah. Yeah. And well, listen, I mean, systems weren't meant to be parent substitutes. So that's like, I mean, we could have a whole sidebar probably on that, right? But like the system is doing exactly what it was designed to do. It's just a system, an organization is never going to be a good family replacement. Like so that in and of itself is is something that we have to talk about. But that grief piece, I think, is twofold, Travis, for me. It's
Courtney (06:48.589)
Yeah.
Travis (06:48.77)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (07:08.199)
That families and kids themselves have grief. That's why we're in the system and touched by the system in the first place. And the system is really bad at addressing that. And then secondary to that is that because it's sitting in so much of other people's griefs, right? We sometimes talk about the secondary trauma piece, is that the system itself doesn't debrief what its workers are going through and and it itself is going through. And so you have this.
you know, almost parasite that like feeds off of itself because we don't talk about kids and families' grief and what they've been through. And then we don't talk about when we're in the system, the cost that is to the rest of us and how to debrief it. And what we really know about compassion fatigue and burnout is that burnout is really just unprocessed secondary trauma often. And that if in systems we would build a space to talk about that was really hard.
Courtney (08:08.153)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (08:08.435)
That was, can we talk about what that cost us to to to hear these stories, to, to deal with these situations, that the workers themselves would be able to process some of their grief and that debrief and thus help others, families, kids process their grief. But we're all kind of acting as if, yep, grief is normal. We're just going to accept that and let's move on from that, but not actually talk about what we're missing.
Travis (08:24.461)
Mm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (08:36.573)
And you see that day to day and in and the things that most kids who've been in the system talk about what they missed out on. A lot of times it's not the big things that people think kids and systems need. It's the little things that we had to grieve that we never got to.
Travis (08:48.888)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (08:52.814)
Hm.
Courtney (08:52.983)
Hmm. Yeah. It's so, so deep. And yeah, thank you for sharing because, you know, I think it's easy also for the system and the people part of all the people that are part of the system to almost check the boxes, right? Like, we know we gotta do this, we know we gotta do this, we know we gotta do this, and and then we move on. And then we see people like you who are like, Wow, she's she's doing great. She's an adult and you became one of the
Shenandoah Chefalo (09:04.286)
Yeah.
Courtney (09:18.179)
Three percent of all foster care children who age out go to college, the one percent who graduate from college. So from the outside looking in, you look like you've got it all together, right? But that grief still shows up and it's still something that you're dealing with today.
Shenandoah Chefalo (09:32.637)
Yeah, I first off, like my degree took eight years too. Like, can we just say that? Like it wasn't just that straight path because I think Courtney, that's what we boil it down to these really simple check boxes. Like, yep, we got this disadvantaged kid into college. So check, look at us. and hey, she also graduated. So woohoo, we've really like double dipped. And it's like, well, it was also eight years in between those two things.
Travis (09:38.678)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (09:58.097)
It was a lot of being by myself. It was also three suicide attempts. Like there's a lot packed in there that gets overlooked, right? To just get to the it's a success. And there's so much underneath that iceberg of what people don't see. And and one of those things on top of grief for me is this idea of hyperindependence, which is another piece of that that I don't think we talk about, which, you know.
Being independent as a kid helped me survive. So I spent the my first fifth 13 years with my mom in a really chaotic situation. My mom had substance abuse and mental health issues. We moved over 50 times. I went to over 35 schools before the age of 13. And so my independence helped me survive. It taught me not to rely too much on anybody, not to ask for help.
To stay prepared for disappointment. And as an adult, that same scope coping skill can make it hard to receive support, to rest, or to trust that people will stay. And so, you know, there's always, I'm always testing people. Will you really be a person of your word? You know, I take integrity as something like really serious in my adult life.
Travis (11:16.194)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (11:22.877)
And so what a lot of people often call strength in former foster youth is really just survival. Right? It's a masking system that we've all are kind of living behind. And I think that's a really important thing to talk about because it can look like success. It can look like these things everyone wants to achieve. And it's like, ooh, I don't people ask me all the time, are you successful? I I don't know if that's the word I would put on it.
Travis (11:30.104)
Hmm. Yep.
Courtney (11:50.893)
Yeah.
Travis (11:51.822)
Ha ha ha.
Shenandoah Chefalo (11:52.849)
I would probably just put like, I'm doing better than others, and I'm not doing as great as others, and I've still got a lot of work to do. Like the work will never be done. It it's never complete or finished. And even when I think, I gotta, that was a big thing I tackled, it feels like, now there's this other thing I have to also tackle. And for me at this age, you know.
Courtney (11:56.451)
Mm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (12:18.835)
I've spent more time away from my biological mother than I ever did with her. Yet I'm still unpacking that stuff plus the stuff the system added onto it. You know? So when we talk about things like adverse childhood experiences, it's like, yeah, if you right, I say I'm a 10 plus. But if you started me over at zero the day I entered foster care.
Travis (12:30.254)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (12:43.731)
And we just said, let's let's just start at Shen from your time in foster care. We'll forget all the stuff with your bond. My score is also a 10 plus.
And we sometimes don't want to talk about that. Right? It it's just all about the biological parent in that system and not all the things the system also piled on top that I have to unpack.
Courtney (12:56.023)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (13:08.483)
Yeah. So question, you wrote a memoir. Did that did you find that to be part of your healing journey? Or was that did it take you back some steps or
Shenandoah Chefalo (13:13.247)
Yeah.
Courtney that's such a hard question. And I always feel like I'm gonna let people down with the answer to this question, which is yes and no. yes, but not in like the simple way of like, I told my story, so now I'm better. But like writing it helped me organize pieces of my story that had felt fragmented or you know, disassociated from for a really long time.
Travis (13:20.79)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (13:22.637)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (13:48.105)
And the story writing was helpful in giving me language to experiences that I had carried silently. For me specifically, you know, when I turned 18, I made a promise that I would never tell my story. Like, and I hid it for a long time. I hid it from my spouse for many years. I hid it from my daughter for many years. I from everybody I knew. And so, in a lot of ways, I talk about the book being like a coming out party that it in
It affected people in my life in a lot of different ways. I lost friends from sharing the story. I gained friends from sharing the story, right? Like, but there were losses and gains from that. But healing's also not this one-time event. And so the book didn't erase that pain, but it helped me transform it into something that I hoped could educate and connect and hopefully prevent others from feeling alone.
Travis (14:30.646)
Yes.
Shenandoah Chefalo (14:43.977)
I think that's what I'm most proud of from the book that when someone reaches out and emails me or sends me a message on social media to say, yeah, I didn't have that story, but I had a similar story. Like that connection point for me is like that was worth it.
Travis (15:02.808)
Hmm. Love the honesty and yeah, just being real about kind of even your ongoing and continued healing journey. as we kind of transition into talking more about kids and their experience of loss with placements, there's a great quote when I think of kind of overlaying this on this, but someone said you cannot transplant a tree without cutting some of its roots. So when it
Shenandoah Chefalo (15:20.253)
Yeah.
Travis (15:31.798)
When a child, you know, lo leaves their family of origin and, you know, even if it's horribly abusive situations and the reason to be removed is necessary, there is still a loss. There's major losses and upheavals. So yep. So and some are obvious, some are more overlooked. Talk a little bit about some of the ambiguous loss and kind of how you see that affecting kids in care.
Shenandoah Chefalo (15:38.844)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (15:44.788)
Huge.
Shenandoah Chefalo (15:55.357)
Yeah, I mean, and I'll say this both from my perspective and in lots of kids that I I get to talk to on a weekly basis is that yes, you're f to to your point, Travis, like even in the worst case scenario that you can think of, right? In in in the in the worst scenario, that's still your parent. I so I say this all the time because I give lots of details about my own personal life, but like
Even in all that pain and suffering, I've really good memories of my mom.
Like not every single memory is pain and suffering. Like, and she's my only person. Like, I don't get another mom. Like, that's my mom. And so, good, bad, or otherwise, that's my person. And even for me, like I self-reported myself to care. And I th I was trying to save my mom and me.
Like, even though my mom did some horrible things to me, it it's still that. So, yes, there's that physical separation from parents. Now, in my case, I didn't have siblings. So, but for many kids, siblings are another one. But it's your home, it's your pets, it's your neighborhood, it's your community, it's your culture, it's belonging, it's routine, it's it's we don't brush our teeth at this time, we brush our teeth like.
Courtney (17:22.466)
Yeah.
Travis (17:22.87)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (17:23.253)
If you just thought about every single thing you do in a day, even for you, Travis, you and Courtney right now as an adult, one of the things I challenge as audience often is if you've never spent a night in foster care, as an adult right now, like the first stranger you see when we leave this podcast, just envision going to live with them with everything that you have, your humor, all the things you've developed, your credit card, your driver's license.
Travis (17:27.138)
Yep. Yep. Sure. Mm-hmm.
Travis (17:45.556)
Yeah. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (17:51.935)
But like you're gonna go to work, you're gonna come back, you're gonna live with them. How long until you feel comfortable? And so, like, you know, I'm married to an Italian Catholic, so feel comfortable means like you'd open their fridge and make a sandwich without asking, right? Like that's comfortable. So everything else is the ambiguous loss. You almost can't name it, but it's like it just doesn't feel comfortable here. And I talk about, listen, some people don't.
They go to their in-laws for Thanksgiving for two days and they're like, let's let this be over, right? I want to get back to my life. And it's like, but for kids now who don't have all the resources, all the skills, right? And you're still emotionally attached to that other life.
Courtney (18:23.267)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (18:23.66)
Right. Right.
Shenandoah Chefalo (18:39.997)
You have memories of it. Even I say this about infants, like they still have memories of it. They are still connected in all of these ways. And so it's possible for us to miss somebody who hurt us. Like that paradox exists. Two things can be true at the same time that we can love people that we're also afraid of, that we can feel guilty attaching to a new person who might love us.
Courtney (18:47.222)
Yeah.
Travis (18:47.233)
Yeah.
Travis (19:07.638)
Mm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (19:08.339)
That there's guilt and shame there and that that grief I think can show up in behaviors like anger and withdrawal and control and perfectionism and shutting down. And oftentimes as people trying to help, because I think mostly in systems we're trying to help, but we can see behaviors and we're only trying to fix a behavior versus seeing what's underlying that behavior.
Travis (19:32.52)
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Courtney (19:38.637)
Wow, that's powerful. And I I do encourage everybody that's listening to like st really if even if you have to push pause, stop and consider what you had said about going to a stranger's house because that is the reality. You know, our family were
Travis (19:47.98)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (19:48.105)
Yeah. I mean, I get frightened thinking, my God, what if I had to go to my neighbors? no. Like right, 'cause we don't live in a community anymore where we're even connected in that realm of just living at your neighbor's house for a night or something, right?
Courtney (19:53.813)
Yeah. yeah. Yeah.
Travis (19:54.287)
Right. Yeah, it exactly. Yeah.
Courtney (20:04.105)
Even a friends. I mean, how you know, good friends. We live so differently and it's uncomfortable, right? To go. Our family's an on-call family. And just last weekend we had a placement just for the weekend of an eight and nine-year-old. They came at eleven o'clock at night. And it was one of the hardest placements we had in the sense of it's eleven o'clock at night. These two were so uncomfortable. And they're supposed to just go to bed because it's 11 o'clock. The caseworkers stayed for an hour because we couldn't get them, you know, to
Travis (20:06.968)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (20:09.052)
Yeah.
Courtney (20:31.415)
stop rolling around on the floor and they were just so uncomfortable. We couldn't get them to talk. We couldn't get them to look at us. We couldn't get them to lay down. And it was just really hard. And I just kept I was just tearing up watching these two, thinking, I cannot imagine being eight years old, nine years old, fifteen, any age, and entering somebody's home at eleven o'clock at night. And now we're supposed to just go to bed.
Travis (20:37.358)
Hm.
Travis (20:46.315)
Right, anyway.
Shenandoah Chefalo (20:46.733)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (20:52.285)
Yeah, and be comfortable and feel like like how is that safe, by the way? I mean, that's the other piece that I often say with folks is like we spend our entire lives telling kids, especially eight, nine-year-old kids, right? About stranger danger. And then all of a sudden you're surrounded by nothing but strangers and everything's supposed to be okay. Like we have l like it's not okay. So
Travis (20:52.696)
Yeah.
Travis (20:56.802)
Right.
Travis (21:07.672)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (21:18.151)
I get that in our adult brains, we're like, these are safe people. They have been screened. But that's not what your brain is telling you. And you know this because when I say go live with a stranger right now, Travis, I can see Travis's brain going, No, thank you. Like this would not be in my comfort zone. As an adult. So now if you're eight and you don't have a fully functional brain.
Travis (21:31.47)
man well when you when you said family then yeah.
Courtney (21:32.714)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (21:42.631)
And every alarm is going off that this is dangerous. Cause I think that's what people don't understand is that even when you're coming from a dangerous situation, and I myself was, I know how to survive that danger. I've been doing it every day of my life, in my case for 13 years. I know what to do in that situation. What I don't know to do is in Courtney's house, where you have rules that are probably there to protect me, Courtney.
Travis (21:43.083)
Uh-huh.
Travis (21:58.915)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (22:12.007)
And you want to have a meal at six, or you want to go to bed at I don't know how to survive that. And so it's sending off all the hypervigilance alarms in my head to say this is a dangerous situation. Yet all the adults are like, stop acting like that. Let's go to bed, right? And not being able to hold space for both things can be true, that this safe place can be very dangerous.
Travis (22:17.848)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (22:29.027)
Yeah.
Travis (22:29.066)
It's okay. Yeah. You're right.
Courtney (22:39.572)
Mm. Yeah, that's
Travis (22:40.44)
That's a great point. The paradox, yeah.
Courtney (22:43.225)
For sure. This poor little girl, who is it? Just in her home for three nights. She once we did get her to lay down and I we stayed in there for hours, you know, trying to help and support until she fell asleep. But she pulled back the covers and she smelled the sheets. And then she goes, These smell too clean. That's what came out of her mouth. And, you know, like you're saying, like that's not she's not used to clean sheets. She's not used to that smell of cleanliness. To her, it might smell too overwhelming, you know, when you have
Shenandoah Chefalo (22:58.558)
Yeah.
Travis (22:59.074)
Mm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (23:03.444)
Yeah.
Travis (23:06.232)
Hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (23:08.125)
It's not safe.
Travis (23:11.736)
Hm.
Courtney (23:12.653)
the smell of laundry detergent that you're not used to. Or and it was one of those aha moments for me of, my goodness, my my sheets smell too clean.
Shenandoah Chefalo (23:15.839)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (23:20.711)
Yeah, this comes up a lot when I do foster parent training, things like this. Food often comes up as well. And I'm just like, it's okay if someone wants to eat a peanut butter sandwich for like 12 days in a row. Like they're they're really not gonna die. And and you gotta you gotta give kids, in in my opinion, in those situations, control and choice of something. You cannot control everything, and you gotta just know I
Courtney, I remember my first thing not wanting to sleep in a bed. And it was like everyone was trying to force me into this bed. And it was like, you know, I look back at that, I'm like, literally, a kid can sleep on a floor. I think we would all agree that like kids sleep on floors all the time, like they're not gonna die, right? But like people want that control of like it has to look a certain way. And and then that causes other fights and causes other behavioral issues.
Courtney (23:51.395)
Hm. Yeah, that's common.
Travis (24:00.654)
Hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (24:16.531)
That kind of become distraction points to what's really underneath all of this. And so I think that voice and choice is a really critical one of where can kids choose? Now there's certain things that they're just not they didn't get to choose your house, right, Courtney? But like within the within the realm of your home, what can they choose? Can they choose which bed? Can they choose what time they take a bath? Can they choose which food they eat? Like
Travis (24:20.493)
Yeah.
Courtney (24:21.261)
Shenandoah Chefalo (24:43.411)
What are the battles worth having and what are the ones not and letting kids have some autonomy to try to keep themselves safe, even if it doesn't meet our standard?
Courtney (24:54.199)
Yeah, I love that. Again, just using this example, you know, sh they didn't want to shower and we didn't force them to shower. We just offered it. Like if you want to, if you want to take a bath, if you don't want to take other, that's fine. They didn't want they didn't change their clothes the entire time they were at our house. But then a couple days in, I said, Do you want me to wash your clothes and you could put them back on or do you not want to? One chose for me to wash their clothes, one chose for me not to wash their clothes. So, you know, one wore the same clothes for four days straight and it's okay. That was what was comfortable to them in that moment.
Travis (25:13.07)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (25:17.706)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that's hard for some people to to let go of that, but but it's what's underlying that because these are my clothes. This is all I have from my previous life. This is all that I might have. I mean, it's why. So, you know, here's Love Bunny sitting here, which was the basis of how we started Best Bunny in the first place. But it was like that was all I had.
Travis (25:31.906)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Travis (25:44.44)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (25:45.405)
And so even at 17, when people were like, mate, can we get rid of this? I was like, no. Like it was just, you know, and I've been in I've been in like knockdown, drag out fights over that stuffed animal. But that's like this is all I have of a life that existed before. And I know that for a lot of kids with clothes, and and we see it right in people's hearts are these kids come in with nothing. We want to get them all these new things, which I totally love and support. But
Travis (25:52.024)
Ha ha.
Travis (25:59.599)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (26:13.971)
Where's the space for my old things as well?
Travis (26:16.226)
Right. Because they have deep meaning.
Shenandoah Chefalo (26:19.867)
Well, and it it also like it they have deep meaning and I'm connected to them in a way that if you say my clothes are bad, it says I'm bad.
Travis (26:27.5)
Right. Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (26:29.565)
Right? Yeah.
Courtney (26:29.721)
And the smells, I mean, smell is huge for our memories, our our emotions, our connection and the smells, the feelings, all the things that are connected to it. It's a lot more than yeah, just the clothes on your back.
Travis (26:31.736)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (26:34.357)
Yeah.
Travis (26:35.458)
But you're yeah. The feelings.
Travis (26:43.992)
That is a pro tip, by the way. So we just want to flag that. The voices and choices, like you said, I love that. That is and and even I think you can probably having fostered before and stuff myself, like when you can find those those spaces where, like, even within a realm of something, like related to bedtime routines or something, finding choices that, you know, you still have organization in some degree, but I think that alone would make a huge difference for foster parents that are sort of like
Shenandoah Chefalo (27:01.758)
Yes.
Travis (27:12.17)
on the stricter end of like this is how we do it. And well, all hell breaks loose every time the child goes, Well, let's look at that. What is happening?
Shenandoah Chefalo (27:20.117)
I can't, Travis. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a foster parent training. And, you know, one thing is a kid, especially because I was an older kid. And so I've been in a lot of placements, but one thing almost every foster parent home had in common was a list of rules on the refrigerator. So you'd come into a foster home and there'd be these 10 or 15 rules on the refrigerator, like the house rules, and there they are. And they're different from every house.
Well, let me tell you how hard it is as a kid to like, hey, what's okay here versus what was okay yesterday, right? Like these things happen, but like, especially at the time I was coming up, this was like a real thing. Like, you must have the rules. You must tell everybody who's boss, you must know who's in charge, right? Like it was a big staying point of growing up. And I was like, what if you just made the rules with the kids in the house? Cause what I found, even just as my as a parent, when I have said to my own kid,
What do you think the punishment should be? She comes up with something way more severe than I would ever dream of. Right? Like, I think it's a mine. Like, what do you think I should do in this situation? Kids will often give you something way different than what you would have thought. But what happens when we just decide together what the rules are? Like, even what what does that look like? And to your point, Travis, like.
Travis (28:30.358)
Yeah.
Courtney (28:38.659)
Mm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (28:44.509)
I may not get to choose whatever I want for dinner, but can I choose between A and B? Like, so there can be constraints, there can be confinement, but but where is their choice? And and how do I get to dictate what happens? And and I'll give you a great example. I was in a foster care training, and we were doing some stuff about trauma and understanding the brain. And one of the foster parents said, This is all great, but
Travis (28:49.23)
Yep.
Shenandoah Chefalo (29:12.549)
We have a a young girl who's a young teen at the time and she just lies all the time. And I was like, okay, great. Why does she lie? How do you know she's lying? And so in this particular example, they said, Well, here's an example. She doesn't wash her hair. Well, how do you know? Because she goes in the bathroom, she comes out and her hair's still dry, but she'll say, I washed my hair. So listen, we're all adults. We all know if your hair is dry, you didn't wash your hair, right?
But they were focused on that behavior, the line of not washing the hair. And so they kept giving a punishment for lying. And behavior wasn't correcting. I just said, how come she's not washing her hair?
Like I don't care that I I agree that she's lying, but to me, that's secondary, that serves no purpose in my life. Why isn't she washing her hair? And they were like, we don't know. Like, okay. Well, let's ask. So we actually called her. We called her in the training and she said, I don't wash my hair because at my last foster home, if you use the wrong shampoo, the punishment was worse than their punishment for lying.
Travis (30:00.91)
Mm.
Travis (30:05.614)
Mm.
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (30:22.579)
And so, like the solution was they took her to CVS, let her pick out her own shampoo, and they never had another issue. But like they were just gonna be on the thing of just punishing lying. And you can do that, but you're not gonna get anywhere. If you can become curious about why would a kid be doing this? Why is a kid not wanting to wash? Like.
Travis (30:33.41)
Hmm. Yep. Right.
Yeah.
Travis (30:42.978)
Hmm. It's a great example.
Courtney (30:44.385)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (30:46.803)
So for me as a foster parent, as a community member who maybe has families, right? If you're part of a church community where other families are fostering, the best thing that you can do is just be curious. Ask questions. People want to tell you about themselves, and kids especially want to tell you about themselves. So, like, just saying, why don't you want to wash your hair? Why don't you want to wash your clothes after four days, right? I mean, these are valid questions of like, tell me why. And when you tell me why.
I'll probably understand a lot more and have a lot more clarity and might be able to offer different solutions. But I can't offer anything if all I'm worried about is you changing your clothes right now. There's no other possibility then. And so that paradigm shift, and I often call this moving from the what's wrong with you, not to what happened. We know something bad happened. I story doesn't even matter. It's not what's wrong, it's what's strong.
Travis (31:23.778)
Hm. Yeah.
Courtney (31:25.422)
Yeah.
Courtney (31:30.393)
Yeah, there.
Travis (31:31.67)
All right.
Travis (31:41.931)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (31:45.865)
So how can I use assets, strength, resilience to help us move forward down a different path than just constantly trying to get you to not do something?
Travis (31:56.264)
Mm. It's great. Great insight.
Courtney (31:58.264)
I love yeah, that's great. I also want to make the connection for people that are listening, might be newer foster parents or foster parents or experienced who don't know that I'm not I'm not encouraging people to go against the system, but I'm going back to the original thing you said about the system and the, you know, the checklists we have, the rules we have. And in our county, it is a rule that we have the rules posted and we have to go over them within the first 24 hours, right? But we sit down and we go through our home rules, which are not
There are very few. And we tell the kids, we don't want to have a lot of rules. We want to, you know, walk through this experience with you. But we have these very few rules, but they're also like they have a they can come in and they can ask for for a compromise. Sorry, that's the word I'm thinking. Compromise. They know that. We teach them what does the compromise mean? And there are a couple of rules that we're pretty strict on, meaning electronics, because other kids in the home, whatever. But even that one of no electronics in the bedroom. We've had a lot of kids that say, hey,
Travis (32:51.66)
Uh-huh.
Courtney (32:56.579)
That's where I'm most comfortable talking to my mom on the phone. And so we say, okay, are you comfortable? Could you leave the door open? And then we don't allow that. And we make those compromises, but we teach them what that looks like. So going back to again, that original conversation about the system, you can push back on the system in certain ways. You can ask questions. You can say, Hey, I think this is best for this kiddo. You know, yes, we're not supposed to sp spend the night in the room of a kiddo who's over age two in our area, right? But when a kid's first placed in my home,
I might sleep on the floor next to their bed and I'm gonna tell the case where I did. I'm gonna tell them my reasoning. And you know, if we lose our license because of things like that, and and there is give and take, and they do, they understand those things when you tell them why and that this kid asked for this. And so I think sometimes people too, when they're they're new into this game of foster care, they feel like these rules are such hard and fast rules, and I there's no give and take anywhere. And that's what the kids really need. You know, when you think of this grief and this loss, they need us to be able to see through a lens that's like.
Travis (33:35.662)
Yeah.
Travis (33:45.814)
Mm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (33:51.217)
Yeah.
Courtney (33:53.323)
Okay, where where might we we we need a compromise in this situation on the system?
Travis (33:58.415)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (33:58.547)
Yeah. And I think you have to really know, Courtney to your point, like, if you're gonna take my license, then so be it. Because this is just where I am on something. And and you gotta be okay with that. Listen, my my husband and I were licensed foster parents for a very short period of time because of something. Because of a hard and fast rule that we were just like, don't care like, nope, not gonna happen on my watch. That's not
Courtney (34:05.086)
Yeah.
Travis (34:07.042)
Yeah.
Travis (34:19.16)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (34:22.003)
Right now, my husband's also an attorney. And so like he lives in the world of loopholes. So like he he's really struggled with rules in the first place. That's why he became an attorney. So but ours was in the case of like at the time it was within 24 hours of a placement, you needed to say whether or not you were interested in adoption. And we were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Travis (34:32.491)
Nah.
Travis (34:47.414)
Mm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (34:48.595)
That's not gonna happen in this household of us making a commitment in less than twenty-four hours. And I don't think it's fair to the kids. I don't think it's fair to this these kids' families, and it's not fair to us. It was not fair to anybody involved. So I'll gladly tell. And they were like, Well, we can't place with you then. And we were like, fine with us. Like that, you know, rules are rules, but here's where we are. So Courtney, I do think you have to know where you stand on things.
Travis (34:54.062)
Cheese.
Courtney (34:55.533)
And it shouldn't even be the conversation.
Travis (34:58.594)
What a terrible idea.
Courtney (35:16.569)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (35:17.179)
As a as a foster parent, as community members, like, but it's also how we make change happen. Like us doing that made them say, maybe this shouldn't be the rule. Like maybe we need to re-look at things. And so I think it's really important that we also not try to fit every kid into every box.
Travis (35:23.928)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (35:31.522)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (35:41.321)
Because what worked with the last kid won't work with the next kid. Guaranteed. I've lived in enough group placements that I will tell you that that's the case. And so it it's important that we live in gray.
Travis (35:49.304)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (35:57.725)
And that Gray's okay. And I say this all the time because the other rule that probably annoys me the most is like foster parents and biological parents communicating together. Here's the thing that I've learned kids can never have too many people that care about them. That's not a thing. You cannot spoil a kid with love. That's that's an untrue myth that I don't know who invented it, but it's a lie. There
Courtney (35:57.838)
Love that. Yeah. Yeah.
Travis (36:18.584)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. You're right.
Shenandoah Chefalo (36:27.409)
So if if you all live in the same community, whether kids go back home, whether kids do not go back home, there's not too many people who could love that kid.
And so what our need to keep foster parents and biological parents separated is mind-boggling to me. When what I think families actually need is more positive families to be connected to. So if if I'm a parent who is gonna lose my kids or maybe have a temporary removal of my kids, wouldn't we want me connected to more positive families?
Travis (37:05.432)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (37:07.103)
to potentially keep that family intact and not have to remove at all. Like these are the things. So so why wouldn't we win want to encourage that? And and I talk about like most kids are gonna go back home anyway. And if they go back home, wouldn't I want that mom and those kiddos to reach out to me if something goes bad?
Travis (37:11.854)
Yeah.
Courtney (37:28.543)
Amen. Yeah. Yeah.
Travis (37:29.784)
Corny, you live that out.
Shenandoah Chefalo (37:30.035)
Like what is our why why are we so I I feel like there is something in the system that wants to pit those two entities against each other when really I think a lot of benefit comes if they come together.
Courtney (37:42.212)
Hmm. One of the most beautiful things our county does, and I'm shocked it's not nationwide everywhere, is they do icebreaker meetings. So within the first month, they have a sit-down with the biome, usually mom, but mom or dad or both. And we just get to know each other. Kids not there, we just talk and we get to know each other. And I get to ask questions about what helps this child go to bed at night, what's something they love to eat? What do they not like? What do you want me to want to see in me?
In this next month of this ki in this child's life, you know, we just have very deep conversation and often it it goes really deep and then they trust me and then I trust them and then I love them and they love me, you know, and it just grows this relationship that it's like, okay. And if I was a kiddo or if I was a parent with my kiddo removed, would I not want to know the person who my child is staying with? You know.
Shenandoah Chefalo (38:20.767)
Such a beautiful thing.
Shenandoah Chefalo (38:27.781)
Absolutely. I mean, you could see the terror. I mean, I think about it right as a parent myself, like, especially when my daughter was the same age I was when I got removed. I spent a lot of nights thinking about what-ifs. Like, could you imagine like not knowing where your kids are, what's happening to them? On top of all the other things you're dealing with, by the way, that's not as if you you have things going on. That's why you're in this situation in the first place.
Travis (38:28.536)
Yeah. Right.
Travis (38:52.174)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (38:56.115)
And now on top of that, these other new worries, I just I I don't know why we feel the need to pit it when it really can be a lovely relationship and support system that again could brew naturally outside of the system when we know the system's not really meant to do this kind of stuff in the first place. So so what our need is to separate that is is really concerning.
Travis (39:18.35)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (39:26.915)
Yeah, I love just the bringing it back to what does this child need? Make this really child focused, child centered. And if we really keep that at the forefront of our brains, our minds, our thoughts at all times, then we're gonna say, okay, this rule might need to be changed. We're gonna say, This is why this is happening, all the things you've talked about. And hopefully, and I believe it will help in their grief and loss when we do keep those things at the forefront.
Shenandoah Chefalo (39:30.836)
Yes.
Shenandoah Chefalo (39:51.849)
Because just like I mean, you said it well. Okay, so today it's an eight-year-old and tomorrow it's a 14-year-old, they're gonna need vastly different things. I mean, it's they're just vastly different people, right? And so how do you have the same household rules for for a six-year-old and a 15-year-old? And how do you have the same rules for a sibling set and a solo kid? Like these are all just different pieces and and we have to be flexible. I think.
Courtney (39:59.242)
Yeah. Yeah.
Travis (40:21.102)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (40:21.275)
And and systems are bad at flexibility in general, not just the foster care system, but systems in general, they like boxes and people don't fit boxes. That you you have to be willing to say, like this is kind of our target. How close can we hit on some of these? But we just are trying to get on the board sometimes.
Travis (40:24.12)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Courtney (40:45.933)
Let's add to this conversation by shifting just a little bit. so we've been talking a lot about in the foster home. Let's think a little bit about schools, faith communities, work environments. They too have a role to play and often can add to the grief and loss a youth is experiencing at that time. So how can they be thinking about this? What are things that they can do or or that they do that do add to that grief and loss?
Shenandoah Chefalo (40:49.459)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (40:58.261)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (41:04.563)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (41:11.517)
Yeah, I mean, again, I think this is if I could teach everybody in the US one thing, especially in the year 2026, it's like embrace the paradox. Two things can be true at the same time. It's very few things are either or. Like most of us are not either for or against anything. We're we're somewhere in between. Like on almost any topic you can think of, right? most people don't live at the at the polar ends of things. And so when we think about
Travis (41:25.24)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (41:31.18)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (41:41.471)
faith communities, when we think about workplaces, when we think about schools, I think, you know, we have to think about that, that gray spot. So, you know, schools often punish survival behaviors, right? You're being disrespectful, you're speaking out of turn, like all these things that that we talk about. And and I'm in talking about in big generalities here.
Courtney (42:02.531)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (42:10.345)
Faith communities may unintentionally use language that creates shame and pressure. workplaces may not understand caregiver flexibility. I I think about a case I got called into often about a mom who was gonna lose her kids because her kids were being left alone at the bus stop in the mornings.
But if she stayed with her kids she was late from work and she was gonna get fired from work.
And so the solution was to remove kids. This is the reason was they were being left alone at a bus stop. Now, if she loses her job, she can't feed said kids. We start a whole nother thing, right? But if she's late from work, and they're young kids, don't get me wrong, they're young kids, but but that inflexibility. So I actually got called in and I said, Has anyone called her job? And no, everyone was like, No. I was like, Let's just call her boss. I happen to know the guy.
Travis (42:51.788)
Hm. Right. Yeah.
Travis (43:05.196)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (43:13.811)
And I said, Hey, do you know what's going on? Here's the situation. He's like, Are you telling me like a 20-minute start time changes everything? Like, yeah. She like not only stayed at that job, excelled, got promoted at that job. Like flexibility can mean a lot of things, but sometimes we're we just like don't even involve the people who could be involved and who could change everything for a family, right? So I just think about all of those things about court dates, about crisis moments.
Travis (43:27.864)
Hmm.
Travis (43:36.75)
Hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (43:43.725)
but that a foster friendly community really to me doesn't ask families to hide, right? In order to belong. They just accept us for who we are.
Travis (43:52.547)
Yeah.
Travis (43:58.319)
Yeah. As the as the great French writer Simone Vey once said, attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. So to your point about communities seeing them.
Shenandoah Chefalo (44:00.477)
And whatever that might look like.
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (44:11.495)
Yeah, I heard someone on LinkedIn recently. I I I wish I knew her name because I would totally give her credit. but I I can't recall it. And she said, you know, we talk about it takes a village to raise a kid, which I think we all agree it does, but that means some of us have to be villagers. And it's kind of really stuck with me, not just about kids, but just in general. Like sometimes you gotta stand up and be the villager and be willing to do a thing that doesn't get you anything.
Courtney (44:28.673)
Hmm.
Travis (44:42.37)
Yeah, exactly.
Shenandoah Chefalo (44:42.385)
And and she was she was talking about it i in just the state of the economy now versus like say the sixties or seventies where it's like, you know, everything's monetized. Like if you need a ride to an airport, you call Uber, but in the seventies you would have just asked your neighbor and they would have been a villager and even at four in the morning would have brought you to the airport, right? Like that was then being the villager and kind of now nobody does that, right?
Courtney (44:57.581)
Yeah.
Travis (45:01.614)
Right.
Shenandoah Chefalo (45:08.383)
Like you almost wouldn't even call your best friend. You're like, I'll just call an Uber. Like I don't like inconvenience anybody. But at some point we have to be villagers. We have to do things in community that serve no other purpose than serving others.
Travis (45:08.771)
Yeah.
Courtney (45:12.555)
Yeah.
Travis (45:12.769)
Or
Travis (45:23.96)
That okay, we've done so many episodes, and this is called the foster friendly podcast. And so that's the DNA of this thing. I I don't know that I've ever heard an example of how you said in such a simple example of which is so cool of that that workplace that was that that you have we asked them. Very simple request. They see that and here they meet and like that's preventing foster care. I mean
Shenandoah Chefalo (45:28.67)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (45:42.9)
Yeah.
Travis (45:52.097)
It isn't, you know, we're gonna get more into like, you know, the the bigger leaps to engage this stuff, but like that's such a great example of like just a small like say saying yes. And it was like, You helped this family in a million ways by that one answer, you know. So like that was so cool.
Shenandoah Chefalo (45:54.845)
Yeah. Right, yeah, of course.
Shenandoah Chefalo (46:08.757)
And so like at the time, by the way, she was a maid at a hotel and they were short on maids. Like it's actually a hard position to keep filled. Which is why I think they said yes. I I mean, like if I'm just being totally honest, I think that's why they said yes. So they adjusted her work schedule. But she was so loyal to them.
Travis (46:17.802)
Hm. Yeah. Sure.
Travis (46:28.003)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (46:29.213)
that's not a job you're loyal to but she stayed loyal and then got herself on a management track like which is what i think leaders really want by the way it works but like it takes say it takes them saying yes to something but she didn't leave to go make a quarter more an hour at the hotel across the street when it opened she stayed because they were loyal to her and she was loyal to like
Travis (46:30.526)
Right. Unless you're all in.
Travis (46:36.674)
Awesome.
Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Courtney (46:40.471)
Yeah. Once she felt them seeing her.
Travis (46:44.502)
Right.
Travis (46:52.536)
Yes.
Shenandoah Chefalo (46:59.379)
That's real belonging. That's what belonging looks like. Like some someone has to be willing to do the thing. He could have easily said no, but he was the villager in that instant and just said, yeah, okay, 20 minutes later, what's the problem? But when she wasn't coming in at let's say the eight o'clock start, I can't remember what it was exactly, but when she wasn't coming in at eight, then she was getting these write-ups. And
Travis (47:01.634)
Yes. Yes.
Travis (47:07.296)
Right. Right.
Shenandoah Chefalo (47:25.907)
He was never curious as to why. Like this is why I say curiosity matters. It's like you could have just asked her why in the beginning, could have done this, and we could have never had the system involved at all. Like we could have avoided the whole the whole thing if we would have been a little more curious about why were the write-ups happening in the first place.
Travis (47:29.398)
Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney (47:37.113)
Yeah.
Travis (47:37.26)
Right. Right. Yeah.
Travis (47:46.105)
Yeah. Do you you've already kind of talked on this. Is there anything else you wanted to add or or a a specific sort of d even a short definition of what how you would define a true foster friendly workplace or community? Do you kind of have some words that you
Shenandoah Chefalo (47:58.727)
Yeah, for me I it it is that belonging piece. It's it's being curious and and wanting people to belong and
What's the gentlest way I can say it? Everybody's not going to belong in the way that you see fit. People do not act always in the ways that you want them to. And so for me, when I say belonging, it's belonging's about allowing everyone the space, even people we don't like. Now, because we don't have to like everyone. There's plenty of people I don't like. But belonging is they still get to come to the table and eat.
Courtney (48:37.902)
Mm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (48:39.773)
Right. And and how do we find that? And I find in 2026 it's really hard to have that conversation of I don't have to agree with you, Travis, that we can still eat at the same table and I can still care about what happens to you and your family. And we might disagree on all these other pieces, and that's okay too. And I think we have to find some ways to come back together. I think we're living in a place that
Travis (48:50.114)
Right. Right.
Travis (48:55.374)
Sure.
Shenandoah Chefalo (49:06.493)
Right, Courtney, if you don't act or say the things I want you to act and say, then then you can't be part of us. And I I think that is a really bad for all of us is a really bad place to be. That that flaws and all, and what we define as a flaw is gonna be vastly different. We have to make space for each other.
Travis (49:11.779)
Sure, yeah.
Travis (49:25.314)
Yeah.
Travis (49:28.652)
Yeah. That's tribalism. We're talking being a village.
Shenandoah Chefalo (49:31.817)
Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney (49:32.466)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, foster
Shenandoah Chefalo (49:35.507)
There's this kind of beautiful thing. I I've done I've been lucky enough to do some work in Africa. And it's it's really in several Eastern African countries. And it's interesting to me because when someone in the tribe does something wrong, they do not banish the the tribal member. They actually put the tribal member in the center and they all gather around in a circle and they tell them what's great about them.
What we appreciate about you because they believe that when you do something wrong, you do it because you forgot who you truly are.
Shenandoah Chefalo (50:12.125)
versus this idea of banishment, which I think is very much an American westernized piece of you've done something I don't like. I I never want to like you or talk to you ever again. Be gone. and we don't want to deal with you. And if you ever do rejoin us, then you better get back in line. Right. It's like But this idea of like maybe if someone has done something wrong, they've just kind of come out of touch with who they really are.
Travis (50:16.472)
Right.
Travis (50:21.652)
You're be gone from me. Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney (50:31.177)
Nice.
Travis (50:32.236)
Great example.
Travis (50:38.254)
Hmm. I love that.
Courtney (50:38.979)
Wow. You know, we do that for foster youth when they leave our home as we, you know, we have an evening of dinner together and memories and what we all will miss and love about them. And we do that for birthdays for all of us in our family. But what you just said, like how much more powerful it would be if we do that once a week for each person and really talk about their strengths and what we love and or something positive we saw of them in that week.
Travis (50:56.532)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's cool.
Shenandoah Chefalo (51:02.281)
Yeah. Or not just for your birthday when we're celebrating you, but when you're having a really crappy day. Or you've maybe done something really crappy. Or whatever it happens, it's just that reminder of like that's not all of who you are. Right? You're that and so much more.
Courtney (51:08.899)
Yeah. Yeah. Did something. Mm-hmm.
Travis (51:14.049)
Yeah.
Travis (51:25.134)
Beautiful.
Courtney (51:27.745)
Yeah. Well, as we close this off, I'd love to hear from you. We often end our podcast with this question. So Shannon Do, how would you finish this sentence? What kids in foster care really need is
Shenandoah Chefalo (51:43.413)
Such a loaded question, Corey. here's what I think. And I don't I I want to be very cautious as I say this because I don't speak for everybody, right? Yes, I have lived experience. Yes, I was a kid who aged out, but I don't speak for everybody, and there's nuance, but I think what kids in foster care really need.
Travis (51:48.046)
huh.
Travis (52:05.87)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (52:13.383)
is to know that they're not the problem. I think they need to know that they're not disposable. And I do think they need to know that they don't have to earn belonging.
That belonging isn't a reward. And man, I think they need consistency, which we didn't talk about. I think consistency is missing in this world, ritual is missing. and I think that kids need adults who can see and honor their grief, their story, and still stay steady while they heal.
Travis (52:36.43)
Yes.
Travis (52:39.97)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (52:45.262)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (52:59.207)
I think kids in care need adults who aren't easily move to their own fight-flight freeze appease based on what they're doing. I think kids in care need adults who can sit in their executive functioning a little bit longer, who can take a breath before responding, who can skip a beat.
Travis (53:12.152)
Mm.
Travis (53:24.086)
Mm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (53:25.813)
who can let some things go sometimes who don't need to address every little thing like a military regimen marching in straight lines. So I think they need consistent adults.
Travis (53:34.53)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (53:43.896)
That was beautiful. Covered it all. Yeah, I know. It's like your loaded question brought a home run answer, so
Shenandoah Chefalo (53:50.599)
Well, I mean I feel like I could go tr travel down a lot of bunny holes on that, but
Courtney (53:54.733)
Yeah.
Travis (53:55.119)
Well and and and you've lived it I mean, you come from so many different angles, which is so beautiful in the way that you're engaged in the work now. But like having lived I mean, you entered those homes. I mean, you this is born out of your own heart and experience of like what you see that kids need. I mean, so that's incredible.
Shenandoah Chefalo (54:10.493)
Yeah. I, you know, people say if you if you could go back, I I don't want to go back. I want to be really clear. There's there is no part of me that wants to reverse time travel in any piece of the the word. However, when I look back on situations, it is so clear how things could have been handled differently. And and by the way, I was not a perfect foster kid. I was out of control in a lot of ways of how people would define that.
Travis (54:18.562)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (54:23.224)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (54:39.421)
I did a lot of things, but I also see my own behavior as trying to get people to pay attention to a need and and not being able to get them to really see what was missing in the grief and being frustrated with adults who were only responding from their own fight flight freeze. And and at the time I was a kid, and we can't expect kids to have control. That's why we call them kids like that is.
Travis (54:49.462)
Mm.
Travis (54:58.734)
Hm.
Courtney (55:04.365)
Yeah.
Travis (55:04.654)
Yeah.
Shenandoah Chefalo (55:06.021)
is kind of the point of being a kid versus an adult is like kids don't have control over that and when the adults don't, like really bad things happen.
Travis (55:08.11)
Right.
Courtney (55:08.576)
Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (55:18.165)
'Cause adults have power and adults have control and adults have a say so. And I don't care where we go or in what court system in America, if you put a kid in a foster parent, ninety-nine point nine percent of the time the foster parent will be believed over a kid. And so and not just a foster parent, almost any adult over a kid will be believed.
Travis (55:42.668)
Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm.
Shenandoah Chefalo (55:45.405)
And so it takes a lot to overcome that. And so I just think we have to be really mindful of that in in consistent adults.
Travis (55:54.946)
So
Courtney (55:56.341)
Yeah, I do want to give a shout out as we close off to your book. I love a good children's book. It was a teacher and just love books so much. And I have it, I meant to grab it. It's on the kitchen counter actually. but your book, The Best Bunny, The Adventures of Little Shen, and her inspirational sidekick, Best Bunny. It's just the message behind the book of doing your best is more than enough. And I think that's what we've heard you say throughout the time of this episode is these kids need to, they will feel belonging.
Travis (56:03.086)
So
Courtney (56:23.831)
when we show them that their best is more than enough. And that best we need to set realistic expectations. We need to be there for them and whatever that looks like. So yeah, shout out to that book. And I love the story behind it and even your personal journey of it.
Shenandoah Chefalo (56:34.229)
Appreciate that so much.
Shenandoah Chefalo (56:40.501)
Courtney, thanks so much. I think that's the right when we see behavior is often grief with just no place to go. That's kind of the theme of of this series that we're doing with Best Bunny, who just got the new one. Bunny Best on the move. So we've added book two, book three's coming soon. but just getting to that place where just behavior's grief. That's all that is. It doesn't have any other place to go.
Courtney (56:53.177)
Courtney (56:58.179)
Awesome.
Shenandoah Chefalo (57:08.753)
Get curious about that behavior, see what's underneath there, and I think you'll go to a lot more interesting places.
Shenandoah Chefalo (57:17.503)
For adults too, by the way. Adults are just in those, they're just babies in those big bodies. That's all. That's not not much has changed.
Travis (57:18.978)
Yep. Yeah. Well exactly. Yeah. That's a needed addition.
Courtney (57:19.181)
Yeah.
Travis (57:27.244)
Yep. Yep.
Well, it's been an honor and really have appreciated this conversation, Shando.
Courtney (57:37.751)
Yeah, thank you for joining us.
Shenandoah Chefalo (57:38.207)
Thanks so much for having me on.