We Not Me

Max Crane runs La Stazione, the café in the Yorkshire Moors he bought last year from the mentor who gave him his start as a teenager. On the surface this is a conversation about coffee and community, but the real subject is what happens when a leader refuses to over-engineer culture: Max builds an entire team ethos around twenty-second interactions, hiring for character over CV, and treating mistakes as inevitable rather than dangerous.

The shift in the conversation comes when Max admits he can't fully explain why it works — and argues that's the point. The more deliberately you try to manufacture a "vibe" or codify values into a framework, the more it curdles. His approach — pick people for who they are, let them show up as themselves, debrief calmly after the shift rather than in the heat of the moment — offers senior leaders a useful provocation: sometimes the most replicable thing about a strong culture is refusing to over-systematise it.

2. Key Themes & Takeaways

Max hires for character, not experience — a candidate with no CV who makes eye contact and laughs at a bad joke beats a "maestro" barista with eight years' service.
His onboarding line to every new hire is "I hired you for you" — staff are told to be themselves with customers, not perform a script.
Short interactions compound: Max argues you can meaningfully shift someone's whole day in the twenty to thirty seconds it takes to serve them.
Mistakes are treated as low-stakes by design — errors are handled with a shrug and any real feedback is saved for after the shift, never in the moment, to avoid emotional fallout.
Max is explicit that over-analysing or over-engineering culture kills it — the more you try to force positivity or codify it into values statements, the less genuine it becomes.
He's candid about his own burnout risk as an owner-operator, and about learning that "being there" and "being present" are different things — an unavailable, exhausted leader can't actually support a team.
The team functions as informal welfare infrastructure: Max describes staff quietly checking in on customers' wellbeing, and for some regulars — especially elderly customers — his team may be the only human interaction in their day.

3. Three Reasons to Listen

Listen if you've ever tried to codify "culture" into a values deck and suspected it made things worse, not better.
Listen if you're hiring and secretly know the strongest candidate on paper isn't always the strongest person for the room.
Listen if you're a leader who's proud of how much you work — Max's honesty about burnout and "being there vs. being present" is a useful gut-check.

4. Notable Quotes

"If you try to force someone to have a good time, they're not going to have a good time." — Max Crane

"Just because you're there doesn't mean you're there." — Max Crane

"It's fine for things to go wrong. It's quite natural for things to go wrong. It doesn't matter." — Max Crane

What is We Not Me?

Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.

We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"

You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.

00:00:00 Dan:

We've got something a little bit different for you today.

00:00:03 Dan:

If you would like to be a leader that inspires a team, that inspires a community, this episode is for you.

00:00:10 Dan:

We're talking to Max Crane, who is the owner of a super successful coffee shop in the middle of a community.

00:00:17 Dan:

And he has committed himself to doing just that, to being at the heart of a community and making things better for those around him.

00:00:25 Dan:

And you can really unravel what he's done to make that happen.

00:00:30 Dan:

and take those lessons away to your own world.

00:00:34 Dan:

Enjoy.

00:00:38 Pia:

It's our very great pleasure to introduce Max Crane, the manager and owner from Stazzioni Cafe, which actually is in the Yorkshire Moors in Ilkley, but we're going to hear a lot more about that.

00:00:52 Pia:

So welcome to the show, Max.

00:00:53 Pia:

Great to have you here.

00:00:54 Max:

Thank you so much for having me.

00:00:55 Max:

I'm quite honoured to both ask me to come on.

00:00:58 Max:

It's a real pleasure.

00:01:00 Dan:

Brilliant to have you, Max.

00:01:01 Pia:

Well, I think this is a lovely intersection between a business and the community and how you build that sort of we not me spirit.

00:01:07 Pia:

So we'll dive into that in a sec.

00:01:10 Pia:

First things first.

00:01:12 Pia:

put you under a little bit of pressure and ask you a meaty question.

00:01:15 Pia:

It has a colour associated according to its level of meatiness.

00:01:19 Pia:

And I'm going to hand you over to Dan.

00:01:21 Dan:

It does.

00:01:22 Dan:

The one I've cut the pack and found is a green, Max.

00:01:25 Dan:

I think you're capable of more than a green, but I'm going to give you this one because I think it'll be interesting.

00:01:29 Dan:

When I was growing up, I wanted to be.

00:01:32 Dan:

What did you want to be when you were growing up, Max?

00:01:34 Max:

I'll give you quite a little good story about this one.

00:01:36 Max:

When we used to have careers advisors that used to come into school, you know, the ones that would like take you off and they'd just go, they'd sit you down.

00:01:44 Max:

And then I think it was maybe in year 7 or year 8, so I'd have been 11, 12 at the time.

00:01:51 Max:

And we all got asked, it was the very usual things that were going around the classroom.

00:01:55 Max:

It was firemen, it was policemen.

00:01:57 Max:

Mine was a darts caller.

00:02:00 Max:

What?

00:02:01 Max:

That's really what I loved.

00:02:02 Max:

I remember when we used to have the darts

00:02:04 Max:

I'm at home and it was just, I was a guy going, whoa, 180.

00:02:08 Max:

I was more bothered about that guy than I was about the actual darts.

00:02:13 Max:

And now I watch darts because I watch a lot of Luke Littler.

00:02:16 Max:

But I remember, I don't know if it was just maybe just a phase at the time, but I absolutely loved it.

00:02:21 Max:

I was obsessed with those guys.

00:02:22 Max:

Is that what the?

00:02:24 Dan:

Careers advisor said you should be or is that what you said that you wanted to be?

00:02:28 Max:

That's what I said to the careers advisor.

00:02:31 Max:

Brilliant, brilliant.

00:02:32 Dan:

And I do believe.

00:02:34 Max:

Was quite quickly dismissed.

00:02:36 Max:

Oh.

00:02:37 Max:

She was not happy at all.

00:02:38 Max:

She thought I wasn't taking it seriously and got a bit of a telling.

00:02:42 Max:

But I mean at the age of 12, that was the goal.

00:02:45 Dan:

I love it.

00:02:46 Pia:

I mean, that's a good goal.

00:02:47 Pia:

You could have been a TV presenter or a sports commentator.

00:02:51 Pia:

There's all sorts of tracks.

00:02:52 Pia:

Journalism.

00:02:53 Dan:

What a great answer.

00:02:55 Dan:

That's just superb.

00:02:56 Pia:

They cut you short, I think.

00:02:58 Pia:

I had one that told me they'd get into horticulture and I had no interest in flowers whatsoever.

00:03:02 Pia:

So that was just the end of that conversation.

00:03:04 Dan:

They're funny, those things, aren't they?

00:03:06 Dan:

They're not that just only very specific and inaccurate, I think, would be mostly a way of summing it up.

00:03:11 Dan:

So, Max, what did you go on to?

00:03:13 Dan:

Give us a little bio in the box of Max.

00:03:15 Dan:

to this point today.

00:03:17 Max:

My brother worked in a fish and chip shop in Oakley, if you remember Olekana Fisheries, down there.

00:03:22 Max:

And my brother worked with his best friend on every Friday and Saturday from when they were 14 to 17-ish.

00:03:30 Max:

And then he's a couple of years older than me.

00:03:32 Max:

And when he was going to university, his little part-time job was coming free.

00:03:38 Max:

So he introduced me and I was going to swoop in and take over his shifts as the Friday fish and chip man.

00:03:47 Dan:

Big night with the vision chip shop, right?

00:03:49 Max:

Humongous.

00:03:50 Max:

Scraps would have gone everywhere.

00:03:52 Max:

But then I went in and I had a little chat with them and I just didn't, don't know, I just, I didn't quite feel it.

00:03:58 Max:

But the chap that owned the vision chip shop, his wife had just opened a cafe or just bought a cafe in town called Avanti and she said she needed stuff there.

00:04:08 Max:

And I went there and I think I was 15, maybe just turned 16 at the time.

00:04:14 Max:

And I walked in and I had my first

00:04:15 Max:

first shift and within about 20 minutes, half an hour, I was like, I think this is me, And I was like, I feel very lucky that now, still to this day, I am still doing that job.

00:04:28 Max:

I just absolutely loved everything about the cafe atmosphere.

00:04:31 Max:

It was just glass half full and I was very lucky to settle into it, really.

00:04:36 Dan:

That's wonderful.

00:04:36 Dan:

That's wonderful.

00:04:37 Dan:

You're not quite doing the same job, are you?

00:04:39 Dan:

Because that's the basis of what you do, but you're now manager and owner of this incredible institution in this

00:04:45 Dan:

lovely town.

00:04:46 Max:

Yeah, I think getting to the point of knowing that I loved it, was always in the back of my mind.

00:04:51 Max:

So I did go off to do, I went to university for a couple of years, didn't do very well at all, but I left Avanti after two or three years.

00:05:00 Max:

joined Enzo, who had to start at Lestazione, but kept in touch with him whilst I went to university, just to make sure that he still knew who I was, this guy who was working for him part-time, and he still remembered me, so he still gave me shifts.

00:05:14 Max:

And then university really didn't work out for me.

00:05:17 Max:

I'm not academic, I just followed the system of what you should do.

00:05:20 Max:

You go to university, you do that.

00:05:23 Max:

And after a year and a half, I was like, what am I doing here?

00:05:26 Max:

You know, my mom always said, you should be working, you shouldn't be at uni.

00:05:30 Max:

but I did the thing that you're meant to do.

00:05:31 Max:

You're meant to finish school, you're meant to go to university, you're meant to get a job through university.

00:05:36 Max:

I dropped out and I called Enzo and he said, Come on, Monday, full-time, let's go.

00:05:43 Dan:

That's not a bad impersonation, actually.

00:05:45 Max:

I spent a bit of time with him, quite nailing the impression.

00:05:48 Max:

And then that was it.

00:05:49 Max:

And then the plan was after a year, I think I spoke to him and I was like, I'd love to buy this place.

00:05:55 Max:

And so we've been building up to it for 12 or 13 years and I did

00:06:01 Max:

I bought it off him so he can retire now.

00:06:04 Max:

Incredible.

00:06:04 Dan:

Absolutely brilliant.

00:06:05 Dan:

That's part of the story, I think, the way that he has set up his legacy as well.

00:06:09 Dan:

Max, I wanted to set up our conversation about what you actually do, because coffee is definitely an obvious thing that you sell, but there's much more to it.

00:06:19 Dan:

And I just want to start with a story that I remember.

00:06:21 Dan:

We went to the cafe once

00:06:24 Dan:

and you were serving us.

00:06:25 Dan:

And you said to my dear wife, there's someone in there, I think she's in your group and she looks really like she's having a hard time.

00:06:33 Dan:

She's really struggling.

00:06:34 Dan:

And I thought, it still brings a tear to my eye, but you were sort of scanning the mental health of everyone in your cafe constantly.

00:06:43 Dan:

And Juliette went and was able to talk to her and see how she was doing.

00:06:46 Dan:

That's the story that I will often think of when I think of Stazione and the thing that you do.

00:06:51 Dan:

So that probably won't surprise you because I've seen you do many,

00:06:54 Dan:

many things like that, but I feel that that's the essence of why we wanted to really talk to you, because yes, coffee, great.

00:07:00 Dan:

Community, incredible.

00:07:02 Max:

Well, that's lovely to hear.

00:07:03 Max:

I'm not sure I can.

00:07:05 Max:

It's good that I'm doing that in my subconscious without thinking about it.

00:07:09 Max:

Having a coffee shop in town is one part of a thing, but if you look online in so many places, like for us, I think around our area, there's about maybe 40 places you can go and get a cup of coffee in other local towns or whatever, so why should they come to you?

00:07:22 Max:

And it's just, I'm just a

00:07:24 Max:

big believer in community and why is someone going to come and spend another cup of tea with you rather than at home?

00:07:31 Max:

And just it's the most generic and corny thing you can say, but why make a coffee when you can try and make someone's day?

00:07:38 Max:

And you can do that in 20 to 30 seconds, if not less.

00:07:43 Max:

It also means that I enjoy every day.

00:07:45 Max:

I work a lot and I love every single day, but I think doing that is you get out what you put in and it's just if you do everything glass half full, especially

00:07:54 Max:

in our industry.

00:07:55 Max:

I'm very fortunate.

00:07:56 Max:

I'm in an industry where I can kind of be in control of that and I make sure that I have a team around me as well that reflects that, which is huge.

00:08:04 Max:

The team around me is huge.

00:08:05 Max:

Absolutely, not just me.

00:08:07 Pia:

Tell me, Max, so what's inspired this?

00:08:10 Pia:

It sounds like you've had fantastic mentors, but what is it that you've seen or experienced that's really shaped your whole rationale and purpose for creating a more of a community driven space rather than just selling liquids?

00:08:24 Max:

I don't know.

00:08:26 Max:

I think my mum and dad growing up, which they're very pushed to being kind to people, you know.

00:08:31 Max:

It was the amount of times I heard growing up was treat others how you want to be treated, you know.

00:08:36 Max:

But then if you take that and go even further, you can really change someone's day with the power of a two-pound 90 coffee.

00:08:45 Max:

It's quite amazing.

00:08:46 Max:

There's so much power in one individual interaction with someone.

00:08:51 Max:

You can really like, if we open at half five in the

00:08:54 Max:

And I think there's a lot of people that come in, we're going to be the first people they interact with in a day.

00:08:59 Max:

Or if an elderly person comes in, we can be the only person they interact with during the day.

00:09:04 Max:

Or if someone's having a hard time, they'll go for a coffee and you can slightly alter that person's day.

00:09:10 Max:

And if you can do that multiple times, the feeling that we get at the end of the day is wonderful.

00:09:15 Max:

And it's not just like you can totally just to shift and you can go really, really deep into it.

00:09:20 Max:

But I think the deeper that you go into it, it can kind of

00:09:24 Max:

the fun and the harder you try I think the less impact it will have I think when it's a bit more of a natural thing.

00:09:32 Dan:

So how do you...

00:09:35 Dan:

Because our listeners are a mix of people who work in large companies, they're going to be leaders, they're going to be team members, and they're a very practical bunch.

00:09:44 Dan:

How do you make that happen across a team?

00:09:46 Dan:

I can see, Max, you had that upbringing, you had that passion, but how do you make that happen through shifts as well?

00:09:52 Dan:

It's A dynamic situation with a lot of people.

00:09:55 Max:

When I first became a manager, I used to really try and really try and fully guide people through the day.

00:10:02 Max:

But then when I came to the point of I pick my team, I pick who works there.

00:10:06 Max:

And what's wonderful sometimes is when we put a job advert out, we put that advert out.

00:10:11 Max:

And this is letting my secrets out here.

00:10:12 Max:

This is the secrets of the industry.

00:10:15 Max:

Well, this is great.

00:10:15 Max:

But we put it out there and we say, bring in your CV.

00:10:19 Max:

And a lot of people will send in a CV and whatnot, but the best people are the ones that walk through the door and they don't really have a CV.

00:10:25 Max:

or they haven't really done much and you just see that person there raw and that's great because I don't pick a team member.

00:10:33 Max:

If you've been a barista or a Costa for eight years and you're a maestro and you can do all this kind of stuff, you can be less appealing to me than someone who sits down and told me that they've just took their younger brother down to the park to have a little game of football, who can make eye contact.

00:10:50 Max:

If I make a stupid joke while we're sat down having a little chinwag about when they might want to work

00:10:55 Max:

I look at the person and that's so much more important to me.

00:10:58 Max:

All of my staff are picked for who they are and that's what's the most important thing when you have a team like mine in a cafe in a customer-facing thing, you know.

00:11:08 Max:

I really enjoy the process actually.

00:11:10 Dan:

Yeah, and I'm very glad that you test them by telling them a joke and seeing if they laugh.

00:11:14 Dan:

I think that's it.

00:11:15 Max:

Yeah, We have to have my horrific sense of humour as well.

00:11:18 Max:

Yeah, it's very good.

00:11:19 Max:

If you're going to spend 40 hours a week with me, you have to laugh at least 90% of my jokes.

00:11:24 Max:

Definitely.

00:11:25 Pia:

Yeah, even if they're not funny, even if they're terrible.

00:11:28 Max:

A lot of them really truly are.

00:11:30 Pia:

And how do you find the people that you recruit, how do you find that they pass this on?

00:11:37 Pia:

Do you find that it's quite infectious having this type of culture and that they buy into it?

00:11:42 Pia:

Or do you find they bring a bit of their own character?

00:11:44 Pia:

What do you see?

00:11:46 Max:

A lot of them bring a lot of their own character, which is wonderful.

00:11:49 Max:

A lot of them are quite nervous to feel like they're allowed to portray themselves.

00:11:53 Max:

What I do, I say two things to most people when they first start through it.

00:11:58 Max:

The first thing is, say for example, your name is Dan.

00:12:01 Max:

And I say, I hired Dan for Dan.

00:12:04 Max:

I didn't hire Dan for a dishwasher filler.

00:12:07 Max:

So show me Dan.

00:12:09 Max:

When you're out there, I wanna see Dan, every single person that walks in our door until they walk out that door.

00:12:15 Max:

That's your best friend.

00:12:17 Max:

Don't talk to them like they're a customer.

00:12:18 Max:

You're going to talk to them like they're your best friend and do it naturally.

00:12:22 Max:

The first interaction, how you say hi, like on this podcast, you know, if we go, hi, good morning, it's BBC news, we're talking about, but if it's just hi and welcome to the pod, it's massive.

00:12:36 Max:

It's such a powerful impact that you have on that first introduction, that first, and that's the two seconds of the 20 second interaction.

00:12:44 Max:

And when you start that off,

00:12:46 Max:

glass half full and you have a bit of shoulders back, 99% of the time, the rest of that interaction is going to go pretty wonderfully.

00:12:54 Max:

I do it.

00:12:55 Max:

I've got two business partners with me, Colin and Andrew.

00:12:58 Max:

Colin was at Betty's for a very, very long time and he is an absolute shining light when it comes to serving customers.

00:13:05 Max:

There's not many more talented people on the shop floor you will ever see in your life than that bloke.

00:13:11 Max:

Don't tell him I told you.

00:13:12 Dan:

No, just keep that between us.

00:13:14 Max:

Keep that very much between us.

00:13:15 Max:

I won't

00:13:16 Max:

I won't let him listen to the pod.

00:13:18 Max:

But when it's like that and when our new staff come in and they see us and they see the reaction we get, they're like, even when the younger generation, they're quite wowed by it.

00:13:28 Max:

And it's quite hard these days with the new generation of a lot of people where phones are quite a big thing and having heading phones and stuff.

00:13:36 Max:

And actually they go, do you know what?

00:13:37 Max:

Do you know what's wonderful?

00:13:38 Max:

Bit of eye contact and a smile and nothing serious, but you deliver some of the best service you possibly can.

00:13:44 Max:

Then they kind of go,

00:13:46 Max:

do you know what?

00:13:46 Max:

I'm like, can I do that?

00:13:47 Max:

And when they do, the satisfaction on their face, we feel like we've achieved something when they start to do it in work and it's a pleasure to be part of.

00:13:55 Dan:

The other thing I've observed, Max, is that you touched on this little, it's a diverse group of people you hire.

00:14:01 Dan:

So you're not hiring Max clones?

00:14:03 Max:

No, who could deal with that?

00:14:06 Dan:

It'd be a dream, obviously.

00:14:08 Dan:

It's very diverse and they do start out quite nervous sometimes, they're quite quiet, but it's almost as if they get a development

00:14:15 Dan:

program by being there and they come out and they show their damnedness or whatever that is, which I feel is another really great connection to the community because you're presenting that inclusive view to the community and you are welcoming people in.

00:14:29 Max:

And I know for so many of them, we are not their end goal in their career.

00:14:34 Max:

Absolutely not, Daft.

00:14:35 Max:

But from when they start with us to when they leave, if they're going to go into a larger corporation, if they're going to go to a lot more senior people, and they're able to go into those interviews or those new work environments, giving a bit of eye contact to their new boss, being able to interact more with them, seeing them on a more of a human level rather than seeing them on a hierarchy level, for me, I think that only benefits them because it's just, they realize that they've served CEOs coming to our cover shop.

00:15:05 Max:

for a cup of tea and they're asking them and they're joking with them saying, would you like a little biscuit?

00:15:09 Max:

But then suddenly you can be terrified to speak to them because they're in their environment.

00:15:14 Max:

When they leave, if they've developed themselves more as a person, I think that it's good and doing that and that process of doing that benefits my business as well.

00:15:23 Pia:

Max, tell me, how would you describe the atmosphere inside the cafe?

00:15:28 Pia:

What does it draw people into?

00:15:30 Pia:

And what's the influence it has on your customer?

00:15:33 Max:

It's great.

00:15:34 Max:

People talk to people.

00:15:35 Max:

We always try to create a bit of a vibe in there.

00:15:39 Max:

But I think sometimes the less you try, the more it is a bit of a vibe, because we'll always have a bit of a dance around, a bit of a sing around while we're serving tables.

00:15:49 Max:

Because I think the busier you are, it can create those vibes.

00:15:52 Max:

also draw people in and a lot of people do come because there is a constant I would say I don't quite know it's quite hard to put your finger on why it is a constant thing but we just try to be glass half full you know and if you do that if you just try a little

00:16:05 Max:

little bit, naturally.

00:16:06 Max:

It'll happen, I think.

00:16:07 Max:

I mean, it has done so far.

00:16:09 Max:

I don't quite know.

00:16:09 Max:

I can't quite put my finger on it.

00:16:11 Max:

I'd love to give you an exact answer, but I'm not quite sure.

00:16:14 Max:

And I think the more I think about it, I don't really want to think about it.

00:16:17 Dan:

This is interesting, Max.

00:16:19 Dan:

You said that a couple of times and I've got a perception of what it's like to be in there.

00:16:22 Dan:

I feel you feel accepted and loved and welcome and it somehow makes you want to connect with others.

00:16:31 Dan:

So you see other people connecting with each other really nicely across the tables.

00:16:36 Dan:

But you've said a couple of times, I don't want to think too much about it and probably we're making you do this, which may not be wise.

00:16:41 Dan:

But we've got a lot of people in big companies who'll be listening to this who very much are into, and we've actually helped

00:16:47 Dan:

codifying what they do, put your values down, get really clear about the behaviors, what does this look like?

00:16:54 Dan:

Have you ever tried to do that or have you really tried to avoid it and kept to that more intuitive approach?

00:17:00 Max:

I can't say I've thought about it too much.

00:17:04 Max:

I think maybe I've fallen upon it by the way that we are now.

00:17:09 Max:

I feel like we've done quite well with how we do with regards to the staff.

00:17:13 Max:

And doing that, I think then what's the best way for it to happen is it happen naturally through the staff.

00:17:19 Max:

If you try to force someone to have a good time, they're not going to have a good time.

00:17:24 Dan:

No.

00:17:25 Max:

I allow my staff a lot of freedom.

00:17:28 Max:

If they come in and say, oh God, they were grumpy, or that person's really, I'll say, I dare you.

00:17:34 Max:

In fact, make them smile once.

00:17:36 Max:

I'll buy you a pint.

00:17:37 Max:

I dare you.

00:17:38 Max:

Try your best.

00:17:39 Max:

And they'll do it in some sort of way.

00:17:41 Max:

Then they'll feel wonderful.

00:17:43 Max:

The table next to them feels wonderful.

00:17:44 Max:

The table next to that then feels wonderful.

00:17:47 Max:

And it's a natural thing rather than go out there and sing me a song to everyone to make sure everyone knows that you're definitely having a good time.

00:17:55 Max:

The more you try, the less not.

00:17:57 Max:

If it happens naturally, it happens naturally, you know?

00:18:00 Pia:

Yeah.

00:18:01 Pia:

And what, because it is natural.

00:18:03 Pia:

It's quite organic.

00:18:04 Pia:

from what you're talking about too.

00:18:06 Pia:

So what are the risks or the dangers as you're running this type of culture?

00:18:10 Pia:

What gets in the way of sustaining this I guess for a long period of time?

00:18:15 Max:

It can work too much.

00:18:18 Max:

I am a slight overworker from what my family and other people may say.

00:18:24 Max:

I always have worked too much.

00:18:26 Max:

I'm a bit of a workaholic.

00:18:28 Max:

I do enjoy it, but sometimes I can work myself to a little bit of, dare I say, burnout.

00:18:34 Max:

And when you do that to a certain point, you can do it too much.

00:18:38 Max:

And I think a lot of people, business owners especially, can be quite a victim of that.

00:18:43 Max:

And that can do it because then it doesn't allow me to look after my

00:18:47 Max:

And when I do that, then they're kind of exposed a little bit more to some of the minor and major things that might happen throughout a day.

00:18:57 Max:

So looking after myself is something that I've only learned fairly more in recent times.

00:19:06 Max:

is quite an important thing to do.

00:19:07 Max:

So I am trying to take the odd day off a little bit more.

00:19:11 Max:

I do try to not do everything all the time.

00:19:14 Max:

I think being present and being present are two different things, which is quite an important thing.

00:19:20 Max:

Just because you're there doesn't mean you're there.

00:19:22 Max:

And to make sure that I am there, allows the staff to know that they've got someone to fall back on, because I think just if I'm just there, but I'm actually just doing nothing in the kitchen and I'm unapproachable and I am in burnout and I'm in the corner and

00:19:35 Max:

on my head down because I've worked 85 hours in two days.

00:19:41 Max:

It can be no help to anyone, especially not myself, and it takes such a long time to recover from that.

00:19:47 Max:

So that is one of the risks, and sometimes I do have to be told, and then I listen and I take it on board, and I'll have a nap and try and plug myself back in to recharge, and then I can do it all again.

00:19:58 Max:

But I think we can all be victims of that.

00:20:00 Dan:

And so picking out that theme, Max, how does the team work in terms of doing things better

00:20:05 Dan:

go wrong.

00:20:06 Dan:

How do you run that where you've obviously got processes?

00:20:09 Dan:

How does the team contribute to, you know, we could do that a bit better or that went wrong, lost an order or whatever, the team's contribution to making sure they're holding the standards up, but also contributing to how the whole thing is run.

00:20:22 Max:

Just by absolutely trying their best.

00:20:24 Max:

And when things do go wrong, I am possibly the clumsiest family in north of England.

00:20:31 Dan:

That's a big claim by the way.

00:20:33 Max:

On the night before I went to university, I still remember this, my mum was trying to hold it back in because I was the last one leaving the nest and she was just trying not to get a little bit emotional.

00:20:44 Max:

Just before I went to bed, I stood up and kicked over a full glass of Ribena, which went all over the lovely carpet she had in her house.

00:20:52 Max:

And that's what broke her into tears.

00:20:54 Max:

And the broke her into tears wasn't the fact that I'd ruined the carpet whatsoever.

00:20:58 Max:

It was the fact that I wasn't going to be there.

00:21:00 Max:

And she didn't care about the carpet.

00:21:03 Max:

We never cared about anything like that in our family.

00:21:06 Max:

So that's always taught me that things get spilt, things get broken.

00:21:09 Max:

It doesn't matter at all.

00:21:11 Max:

I put that onto the team.

00:21:12 Max:

It's fine.

00:21:13 Max:

If something gets smashed,

00:21:14 Max:

It's fine.

00:21:15 Max:

If an order gets missing, it's fine.

00:21:18 Max:

What can we do to make sure these things don't happen in the future?

00:21:21 Max:

But if you get to the point when you get really, really bothered about something small, like a smash or a missed something or an order getting dropped or milk getting dropped or chair being broken, if that really can affect your day and can affect it in a big way, I think that's absolutely barmy.

00:21:41 Max:

I let them know that it's fine for things to go wrong.

00:21:44 Max:

It's quite natural for things to go wrong.

00:21:45 Max:

It doesn't matter.

00:21:46 Max:

If there's something that needs to be spoke about, we spoke about at the end of the day and we never speak about things in the moment because that's when fallout's going to happen.

00:21:54 Max:

Taking it all with a pinch of salt.

00:21:56 Max:

Yeah.

00:21:56 Max:

Lovely.

00:21:57 Max:

I love taking life with a pinch of salt and going, be right.

00:22:01 Dan:

Be right.

00:22:01 Dan:

It'll be fine.

00:22:05 Dan:

For our international listeners, that is Yorkshire for.

00:22:08 Max:

It'll be fine.

00:22:09 Dan:

The Australian version, I think, is she'll be right, isn't it?

00:22:12 Dan:

She'll be right.

00:22:13 Dan:

She'll be right.

00:22:14 Dan:

That's what you do.

00:22:15 Max:

You just crack on, don't you?

00:22:17 Dan:

Max, the only other thing I've got on my mind is that when we're chatting about you coming on the show, you talked about these 45-second conversations that you live your life in these.

00:22:27 Dan:

I think you even mentioned 20 seconds just then.

00:22:29 Dan:

If you've got these moments, in a way our lives are, it made me really think actually, because our lives are in a way very fragmented.

00:22:35 Dan:

We're impatient.

00:22:36 Dan:

Everything's in short bites.

00:22:38 Dan:

But it seems that the speciality that you and your team have is to use these little moments for positivity

00:22:44 Dan:

I thought that was really interesting.

00:22:46 Dan:

They're just very interesting that you were quite aware that you've got this tiny slice of time to insert something into.

00:22:52 Max:

Yeah, and only became aware of it a few years ago when someone mentioned it and I didn't realise that happened.

00:23:00 Max:

We are 30 seconds, 20, 30 seconds with all these people all the time.

00:23:04 Max:

And you can build a full relationship with people in these times.

00:23:07 Max:

But then suddenly, the past six, seven years ago, I started playing golf.

00:23:12 Max:

And then I went and played golf with a customer.

00:23:14 Max:

And after the end of the first hole, I thought, I've literally never spoken to you for this long whatsoever.

00:23:19 Max:

I'm not sure I know your surname.

00:23:21 Max:

But I've known them for 10 years.

00:23:23 Dan:

You've probably used all your material as well.

00:23:25 Max:

Yeah, that's it.

00:23:27 Max:

I peaked after my second shot.

00:23:29 Max:

I had nothing else to do.

00:23:30 Max:

to say to them.

00:23:31 Max:

And it is a strange thing.

00:23:33 Max:

And to acknowledge it is a nice thing, but I've never tried to delve too deep into it because I think if you start to think too much about how is this conversation going to go, like when you said about coming on this podcast, I didn't really want to think too much about what I was going to say.

00:23:49 Max:

I just, you know, I wanted to make sure that it is a little bit natural because I think if you pre-plan a lot of your interactions with people, you can just kind of scupple them really.

00:23:59 Dan:

For sure.

00:24:00 Dan:

It's A fascinating approach, I think, that realization that, and we'll talk about this, I think, at the end of the show, Pia, but how people really struggle to build connections and don't even take those few seconds to do that, let's say in a business call or something, but I think it's exemplary how you've done that.

00:24:17 Dan:

So let's ask you a couple of our boilerplate questions now to wrap us up.

00:24:21 Dan:

What would you say to our listener who is leading a team, working?

00:24:25 Dan:

What's your one bit of advice, even if they think they're miles from this kind of

00:24:30 Dan:

positivity.

00:24:31 Dan:

What's your one piece of advice you would give them?

00:24:34 Max:

I'm not a big believer in micromanaging.

00:24:36 Max:

I never have been a big believer in micromanaging.

00:24:39 Max:

I think leading by example and showing people what they can get out of a day that is as small as

00:24:48 Max:

serving cups of tea or welcoming someone as a doorman to a door or such a, what can be known as such a minor job.

00:24:57 Max:

You know, he can be technically bottom of the food scale, can we say, as in these jobs that we've done.

00:25:03 Max:

If you show your staff what they can get out of it at the end of the day, and if they leave feeling half satisfied or satisfied with what they have achieved within that day, that's just so much more powerful than

00:25:18 Max:

small percentage of a pay rise, all this kind of stuff that people try to work up a ladder and stuff like that.

00:25:24 Max:

Making sure that if you give your team the ability to want to come to work is wonderful.

00:25:30 Max:

And there's so many people that do get up and they go to their nine to five and they're desperate for Friday to come because they just can't wait to not work at the weekend.

00:25:40 Max:

All of my team,

00:25:42 Max:

They enjoy coming to work.

00:25:43 Max:

At least they say they do.

00:25:45 Max:

But they seem to, they thoroughly enjoy it.

00:25:47 Max:

You allow them to be themselves in work and not try to control everything that they do through the day.

00:25:53 Max:

So they enjoy their day will only benefit you.

00:25:57 Dan:

Brilliant.

00:25:58 Dan:

Thank you.

00:25:58 Dan:

And I think that applies to any job, actually.

00:26:02 Dan:

I think that's really good advice.

00:26:03 Dan:

And finally, Max, give us a media recommendation.

00:26:06 Dan:

What's your recommendation for a Netflix series, book, podcast, anything, anything.

00:26:12 Max:

Netflix series book podcast.

00:26:14 Max:

One that popped up that I saw the other day that I haven't, I saw it when it first came out and I think it's back on Netflix is The Fall.

00:26:21 Max:

Do you remember The Fall with the guy Jamie Duck?

00:26:26 Max:

the guy that was in Fifty Shades of Grey.

00:26:28 Dan:

Oh, yes, right.

00:26:29 Dan:

Yeah, that fella, yes.

00:26:30 Max:

I've heard of it.

00:26:30 Max:

He didn't.

00:26:31 Max:

It was a long time ago that it came out and he was with, I can't remember the lady's name in it, but he's where he's a serial killer.

00:26:38 Max:

But it shows everything is from his aspect.

00:26:42 Max:

I think it's on Netflix or maybe I play it.

00:26:43 Max:

It's called The Fall.

00:26:44 Max:

It's a fantastic series.

00:26:47 Dan:

All right, that's good.

00:26:48 Dan:

We asked that question for our listeners, obviously, but we often get some really good recommendations as well.

00:26:53 Dan:

So we appreciate it.

00:26:54 Max:

Yeah, that's really good.

00:26:55 Dan:

Excellent.

00:26:56 Dan:

So sorry, I've asked three questions in a row now, but here's my last one.

00:26:59 Dan:

Who's your favorite customer, Max?

00:27:01 Max:

You, without a shadow of a doubt.

00:27:03 Dan:

Very good, very good, very good.

00:27:06 Pia:

Did I see that?

00:27:07 Max:

Every time you come in, you leave at least a 25 pound tip, which is wonderful.

00:27:11 Max:

You have forgotten the past two to three or 100 times that you've come in, which is, you know, that's fine, you're with a given, but you are leagues above anyone we've ever had in.

00:27:20 Max:

And I bow down to you, sir.

00:27:24 Dan:

There you go.

00:27:24 Pia:

Well, I think we just have to leave on a high there.

00:27:27 Dan:

Yeah, indeed.

00:27:28 Dan:

Max, thanks so much for being on the show.

00:27:30 Dan:

It's so insightful.

00:27:31 Pia:

I agree.

00:27:31 Pia:

So refreshing.

00:27:32 Pia:

So refreshing to hear and just really down to earth pragmatic.

00:27:35 Pia:

I think people will be going, yeah, I really picked some little golden gems from your conversation.

00:27:40 Pia:

So big thanks.

00:27:41 Dan:

And genuinely, the impact you have and your team has on the community, I think, is immense.

00:27:47 Dan:

We're in a community like many that can be easily divided, but that is a place where we are all together.

00:27:53 Max:

Thanks.

00:27:54 Dan:

And it's just a seed of something really amazing.

00:27:57 Dan:

So thank you, Max, for everything.

00:27:59 Max:

Well, a lot of it is down to my team.

00:28:02 Max:

and with Enzo, Colin and Andrew who are there with me as well.

00:28:05 Max:

It's absolutely not me doing it by myself.

00:28:08 Max:

If I'm the front of it, then it's a pleasure to be the front of it.

00:28:10 Max:

But the fact that you even asked me to come on shows I'm doing something all right.

00:28:14 Dan:

Indeed.

00:28:14 Max:

I don't want to think too much, but I'm really grateful to you guys for having me on.

00:28:18 Max:

So thank you.

00:28:18 Pia:

Oh, fabulous.

00:28:19 Pia:

Thank you for joining us.

00:28:20 Dan:

Thank you, Max.

00:28:21 Dan:

We'll see you for a coffee soon.

00:28:23 Max:

Cheers.

00:28:23 Max:

Thank you.

00:28:24 Max:

Cheers.

00:28:24 Max:

Bye.

00:28:24 Max:

Bye.

00:28:28 Pia:

I really liked how Max talked about, at the very end, I don't know whether it was off air, but he talked about how he actually changed the coffee.

00:28:35 Pia:

So the coffee isn't necessarily the one that draws people into the cafe, but he said it's about the 20 to 30 seconds that make somebody's day and that whole, how do you create that atmosphere that people go there and they get a buzz and that, you know, it's like it could be the best part of their day, could be the only part of their interaction that they have.

00:28:53 Pia:

And I just think that's looking at how you're going to create that quality

00:28:58 Pia:

short conversation, but it means something.

00:29:00 Pia:

It makes someone be seen or felt that they're seen.

00:29:03 Dan:

So right.

00:29:03 Dan:

And you really do.

00:29:05 Dan:

And I think that if we zoom out, we're working with a lot of teams, Pia, who have no connection or very little connection.

00:29:13 Dan:

And they will say, well, we're working virtually, so we don't really know each other very well.

00:29:17 Dan:

Well, it just shows how you can use a small bit of time to make a massive difference and to get to know what people are doing.

00:29:25 Dan:

Max knows

00:29:26 Dan:

Everyone.

00:29:26 Pia:

I bet.

00:29:26 Dan:

And the other members of the staff know everyone.

00:29:29 Dan:

And they've done it in these tiny slices.

00:29:31 Dan:

So I think that it's worth thinking for our listener how you can raise your game in your team.

00:29:35 Dan:

Say just little slices of 20 seconds is actually all you need to make a difference.

00:29:40 Pia:

And I liked how his coaching was about how.

00:29:44 Pia:

how he would say to a member of his scene, go on, see how you can make them laugh or put a smile on their face or do something like that.

00:29:49 Pia:

was just lovely actually.

00:29:51 Pia:

Listening to him, there's a lot of attention to detail, as I'm sure there is with the whole sort of operational side of running a cafe.

00:29:58 Pia:

It's hard work.

00:29:59 Dan:

Yeah, exactly.

00:30:00 Pia:

But seeing it beyond the service of beverages and food, that needs to be good.

00:30:07 Pia:

But the most extraordinary part is how people feel when they're actually there.

00:30:10 Dan:

Yeah.

00:30:11 Dan:

And it's funny is that we've spent a lot of time, we talk about purpose and vision and things or whatever, the what is definitely the coffee, but he didn't mention purpose once.

00:30:18 Dan:

It was really interesting how it's almost as if there's something magic that he doesn't want to sort of point to or overly codify or, but that drive to build a community and to be part of it and to be a positive impact on it.

00:30:31 Dan:

I told one story there, but you know, I've seen Max in, there's a supermarket just nearby, M&A

00:30:36 Dan:

And I've seen him in there shopping for a customer, an elderly lady who has mobility issues.

00:30:42 Dan:

You're going to buy things for her.

00:30:44 Dan:

And I've seen members of staff walking people out on their arm to a taxi.

00:30:48 Dan:

You know, they take the time and those things don't have any commercial value.

00:30:53 Pia:

No.