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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript:
Hi, friends, I am so glad to welcome in the podcast. My friend, Carolyn, Moore Carolyn, welcome to the Podcast.
Carolyn Moore: Thank you very much, Andy. So such a pleasure to be with you.
Andy Miller III: And of course, we've already had you on this, podcast as is the case with a few of the other delegates when you were, how appropriate is it like when you were talking about the fact? Your book when women lead? And here we are talking about this opportunity that God's presented for you to be a candidate for the Episcopacy in the global Methodist Church.
Carolyn Moore: What a what a healthy thing for our movement to know that! We're looking at gifts and call so much more than we're looking at issues that have plagued other denominations and other seasons.
Andy Miller III: And I'll just, I can't help. But I think that more than people in the global Methodist church will be watching this podcast. And you know that many people, my audience, are connected as Salvation Army and other traditions like Free Methodist, Wesleyans, Nazarenes, and the like, but we we just spent some time sharing it. The fact that you just shared a large gathering at the Salvation Army at Lake June, Alaska. So I was. I was so glad to see the Salvation Army has found Carolyn Moore. It's such a blessing.
Carolyn Moore: Oh, and that Carolyn Moore has found the Salvation Army. I love those folks. What a great organs! And I I don't think I have been at a gathering where the the conversation around Wesleyan theology was more prevalent.
Andy Miller III: Was just a.
Carolyn Moore: Beautiful time. I'm really grateful for the week I spent with them. I'll spend another week, I think. Another couple of days next week, maybe with their leaders. And then I get to be with the recovery centers in spring. So I'm just really happy. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Great. Oh, you're gonna love that! And I'm so thankful for that for folk. This is a part of what's exciting about this moment, and even my coming to Wesley Biblical Seminary was a part of of sensing the way various evangelical Wesley and denominations are coming together, and I think even the nature of of this conversation is is a part of that. Is that the fruit of this? I'm revival. This opportunity or this this time where God's at work is
Andy Miller III: the emergence of the global Methodist church. And so.
Carolyn Moore: Exactly.
Andy Miller III: So I'm I'm excited for that. I'll I'll go ahead and comment on that like before we get into the the technical interview.
Carolyn Moore: But one of the things that inspires me most about Salvation Army is that they are present in 130 countries.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Carolyn Moore: So when the word that leads in our movement is global and and that gets me so excited to think that we don't have to just constrain ourselves to the to the the the areas of the world that have been grandfathered in.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Carolyn Moore: Philippines, Africa, Europe, United States. But we can actually reach beyond and
Carolyn Moore: consider how we might, how we might partner with or or event be, you know, really send evangelists out into missionaries, out into areas of the world that have Methodists already, like India, like South America, I can just go on and on, and list areas of the world that have movements and denominations that are that are Wesley and and their rootedness. But they're just waiting
Carolyn Moore: just waiting for partnership. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Amen, yeah, like, that's where Wbs is. And just be. We went to every annual conference that we could. And one of the things that you yeah, people might not have seen as those convening conferences were happening. Is that the vendors? I forget? I I don't like being called a vendor, but sometimes just what we sponsor, whatever we are. But we just. It was great to get together with these folks and mission agencies, and I think it's going to be more healthy, going forward to have
Andy Miller III: 3rd party groups. And this is part of what what is it? The opportunity for the global Methodist church is to find partners, global partners who are able to work in this way.
Carolyn Moore: Absolutely what? What's not to prevent us from linking arms with anyone anywhere on the globe that is theologically aligned with us, and has a heart for the ones that do not yet know. I mean gosh! How could it can't give me some that's good. That's the part of all of this that gets me most excited, Andy, every time I when I close my eyes and think I think about a whole world of people who are just waiting for a fair account of the gospel.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Well, and that's anticipating one of my questions. So I I sent all the candidates the same questions. I'll do my best. I'm certainly gonna just dovetail off here occasionally into other subjects. But I want to make sure we get through these as best we can. So Carolyn, my very 1st question, and it has a timer attached to it. So I would love for you to give a 2 min version of how you came to Christ, and I am going to use a timer. So 3, 2, 1 go.
Carolyn Moore: Alright. I was raised in a culturally Christian home, and that meant that we said a blessing before our meals, and at least a few of us went to church every Sunday. I'm the last of 6, and so usually it was my mom and one or 2 kids who go to church most Sundays, but that was the extent of my spiritual formation. In my early childhood, when I was 11, I was given the. I was given an invitation by a neighborhood friend to go to Umyf.
Carolyn Moore: So I went, and that was the beginning for me. When I was 12, at a mission trip in Blairsville, Georgia. I was
Carolyn Moore: just suddenly confronted with the Holy Spirit, and gave my life to Jesus, accepted the truth of the Gospel. When I was 13, in a very mystical experience
Carolyn Moore: I sensed a call into the ministry. Nobody in my world had ever seen a woman in ministry, and so that wasn't exactly affirmed as I moved through high school, and by the time I got to college I watered it down, and when I watered down my call I watered down my faith. So I kind of walked away by the end of college from my faith altogether, and it was I was my late twenties, 2829 years old when I finally came back to Faith
Carolyn Moore: through the through Bible study fellowship, I was just so grateful, and I literally saw the the words of the Bible jump off the page at me. It became alive. I had never experienced that kind of reading of the Bible before, and it just came off the page at me, and I gave my life to Christ again, and when I my faith, came back my call came back.
Andy Miller III: Hmm, Amen! That was great. Oh, you even had 20 seconds to spare.
Carolyn Moore: So I'll just say, I love Jesus. I love Jesus. For the next 20 seconds.
Andy Miller III: There you go. I love it.
Andy Miller III: Okay. So my last time question, people are going to say, Oh, Andy, why are you doing these? Why are you time? But I just I wanted to get this, because honestly.
Andy Miller III: these 1st 2 questions could take the entirety of our time together.
Carolyn Moore: Oh, my goodness!
Andy Miller III: Throwing that particularly this one. So now you get 3 min, 3 min, or less. You can. You can do less. The overview of what makes a Wesley and Christian, a Wesley and Christian.
Carolyn Moore: Yeah, that one could take a lot longer than 3 min. I'll give you 4 things.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Carolyn Moore: There's got to be more. But I'll give you 4, I think. 1st of all, I really appreciate Kevin Watson for introducing me to the term audacious optimism. Ryan danker also refers to Methodism as fundamentally an optimistic faith, and I think our optimism is rooted in our systematic understanding of grace, pervenient grace, justifying grace, sanctifying grace, and an entire sanctification.
Carolyn Moore: And because we, because we emphasize the role of grace, yeah, and trust that God can save us, even to the uttermost, that God is coming after us like the hound of heaven, even before we know His name, that we believe every person
Carolyn Moore: not just can be saved, but has the right
Carolyn Moore: to be saved. We are. We are an optimistic faith, and I don't know about you, Andy, but when I hear a Methodist preach. I I can. I can hear it. There's a distant difference. There is an optimism that comes through. So I would say entire thing. Excuse me, Grace would be the 1st thing that sort of leads then to to evangelism.
Carolyn Moore: We are. We are an evangelistic faith. Our charge is to spread scriptural holiness throughout the land.
Andy Miller III: Hey, Mac.
Carolyn Moore: And so
Carolyn Moore: I think I think I would say we're not just an evangelical denomination. We are. I really want us to think of ourselves, not just as evangelical, but as evangelistic, that it is every person's charge to share the faith that we've been given to share that gift with others, so that they might know, too, that Jesus Christ is Lord of all.
Andy Miller III: Hmm Amen.
Carolyn Moore: So we're evangelistic. The 3rd thing I would say is, is that real specific emphasis on entire sanctification?
Carolyn Moore: I'm gonna I'm gonna quote again from my brother, Kevin Watson. He's taught me so much taught all of us really so much.
Andy Miller III: Sure, for sure.
Carolyn Moore: That that entire sanctification is our unique
Carolyn Moore: it's it's our unique contribution to the body of Christ. And if we are not emphasizing
Carolyn Moore: that. That doctrine of entire sanctification! We're taking up a needless place in the body of Christ. That's pretty harsh, but I think that's a good eye opening statement that we, we actually have a responsibility for teaching that we not just that we can be saved, but we can be saved to the uttermost.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Carolyn Moore: So. And I would say, even if you don't actually believe you personally, can ever be entirely sanctified. Whether you think it's possible or not, is not so much the issue for me as are you pointed in that direction? Do you actually think you can be made perfect in love
Carolyn Moore: in this life, which is what entire sanctification is, not perfectionism, but being made perfect in love in this life. If you think that you can, if it's possible, just head in that direction. Yeah. And you're more likely to get there. And how many, how many seconds do I have? 9.
Andy Miller III: I'll get 15. I'll give you 15.
Carolyn Moore: Connectionalism that one comes from, that one comes from David Watson, and he would say that he would say that connectionalism defines our organizational structure. There you go.
Andy Miller III: You got it right there 15 seconds. I I honestly I was very disappointed, Carolyn, because I looked at when you said, How much time do I have? I looked down, and the clock was literally turning, you know, to 3 min.
Andy Miller III: I'm not going to be too legalistic about. I'm not going to be too perfectionate. I'm moving on to perfection. How about that?
Carolyn Moore: There you go! There you go!
Andy Miller III: So like I, I was gonna follow up on one thing there. And I like, I like you say, and I want to be for. And there's another question coming later about evangelism, evangelistic and the Gmc. And I think you've been a part of various various forms of leadership. Wesley and Covenant Association going into the Gmc. But there, there's conversation about
Andy Miller III: using the term Evangelical, and I in general, just because I'm a historian like the thought of using evangelical, because I think of it through the lens of David Bebbington in that tradition. And and I I think historically, what it is, is helpful, but there are times
Andy Miller III: where I don't use the word, because it's not as effective, and some people see it as a political party. And so I I in our country might not be the case. Other places. But do you you have any thoughts on that? I mean, I appreciate the emphasis, make. Evangelicalism needs to be about evangelism, and the Gmc. Needs to do that, too. But what's your thoughts on just even using the word evangelical.
Carolyn Moore: I have no problem with it. I'm with you that we that we don't. We don't shy away from a term just because it has it has taken on some cultural baggage. What we do is we. We teach people. Here's the proper use of that term, and evangelical in the it's proper use means I am evangelistic. I believe every person has the right to hear a fair count of gospel, and it is my personal responsibility to offer that fair count of the Gospel.
Carolyn Moore: The only reason I don't. A few minutes ago, when I said that the only reason I say I want to emphasize
Carolyn Moore: us as evangelistic rather than evangelical, is that I do think evangelical kind of slides into a I don't know just a categorical slot.
Carolyn Moore: and we can miss
Carolyn Moore: the personal calls.
Carolyn Moore: Yeah, is attached to it.
Carolyn Moore: I'm not just an evangelical. I am purse, a person who is an evangelist. I'm actually literally an evangelist right now. My! My
Carolyn Moore: My title right now, or my
Carolyn Moore: trying. I can't think of the word. Anyway I am. I am at my church. My title is evangelist in residence, and I am charged with being an evangelist for this, for the cause of the gospel in my church, and beyond yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, beautiful. And and if you, if those of you who don't know Carolyn, if this is your 1st time, hearing from her, well, you can go back to the more to the story. Podcast, and you can hear about mosaic. But also at the Gmc website, there's there's an interview that's done where there's a couple of other questions answered. There you should be able find Carolyn's story about the church where she's serving now as an evangelist, formally as like a founding pastor. So just encourage you all to check that out.
Andy Miller III: Carolyn. One of the things is interesting, and I've gone through this, too, in this year, as I now sit in the seat as President of Wesley Biblical Seminary. But really, for me, the 1st call
Andy Miller III: and the primary call was to apply and so you were nominated, and you you have chosen to accept.
Andy Miller III: This opportunity to be nominated to be a 2 year Bishop in the Gmc. So why did you answer that call?
Carolyn Moore: That's a great question, and it takes a little bit of history.
Carolyn Moore: For years I have been very interested in the idea of an of an Episcopal leader, a bishop as a spiritual leader, primary spiritual leader.
Carolyn Moore: I served as the Vice chair, and then the chair of the Wesley and Covenant associations. I was with the Wca. At its inception, and served in one of those 2 roles for 7 of the last 8 years.
Carolyn Moore: and somewhere along the way, a few years ago, someone 1st mentioned that as we're as we're shaping the the role of bishop in this new movement that we're forming.
Carolyn Moore: Can we think of it as a spiritual leader, and I know I should have
Carolyn Moore: had that thought before then.
Andy Miller III: Huh!
Carolyn Moore: It really came to me as a brand new idea. And I can say I don't know that we've had great role models in that that's not to slam anybody else. It's just to say I I don't think we've had great role models of Bishop as spiritual leader, but I just became extremely interested in that idea. I remember standing in in a colleague's kitchen one day, just years ago, saying, Man, can you imagine how that could change
Carolyn Moore: our whole understanding of leadership. If we really begin to think of of leadership at every level, from the lay speaker to the, to the local pastor, to the ordained elder to the bishop, to every leader as spiritually grounded 1st 1st
Carolyn Moore: and but especially in that role of bishop, especially that.
Carolyn Moore: So I thought about it really, theoretically, and and just just kind of dreaming with everybody else what that role could be. I certainly never thought of it as a role for me personally, because
Carolyn Moore: I don't have the credentials. If we're thinking traditionally, I've served 2 churches in 26 years.
Carolyn Moore: Both of them. I planted congregations. I I planted a congregation within a larger church, and I the last 21 years I've been the founding and lead pastor of mosaic. That's my ministry life. I have planted churches that served people who fall through the cracks of more traditional congregations. That's been my role. I've never served as a district superintendent. Except for 6 months in this year, as a presiding elder with the Gmc.
Carolyn Moore: I've never served as a delegate in a general or or jurisdictional Conference.
Carolyn Moore: I I have served here and there in the United Methodist Church and committees or district assignments, but you know I've been tagged as a Conservative for a long time, and so those roles didn't really fall to me. So I really didn't sense that I had the credentials for this.
Carolyn Moore: But what I have done as the as the chair and the vice chair of the Wca. And as an activist in our new movement is, I have written
Carolyn Moore: and thought and spoken and dreamed a lot with others about what it could look like.
Carolyn Moore: And so, whether or not my gifts line up. I really do have a great, a real vested interest in seeing the role of Episcopal leader become that as as
Carolyn Moore: primarily a spiritual leader, using the gifts of apostle and prophet and evangelist.
Carolyn Moore: Previous. I think that we don't often
Carolyn Moore: think of in in the in our method distribution.
Andy Miller III: In in this moment, where the proposal that you're you're aligning with is this 2 proposal for a 2 year? Interim bishops? And there's another proposal, too. So we'll see what happens at the General Conference. I'm I'm a delegate from the Mississippi West Tennessee Conference, and even in our delegation meeting there's interesting conversations happening there about that. But if it does happen, I think we have a good example in what's happened
Andy Miller III: with bishops Webb and Jones. And it's there's all as I've observed them, and as I've participated in various or attended various annual conferences outside of my own.
Andy Miller III: it's interesting to see people having to adjust what they think a bishop is supposed to do, and I think they've been a good. They've given us a good start with that. But this is going to be a key time
Andy Miller III: in these 2 years to help redefine what a bishop is a bishop! If this proposal goes through, I want to be very clear if that proposal goes through.
Andy Miller III: th. This is a time to like, say, No, no, bishops have a different focus. So when this ha! If this happens, what do you feel the assembly of bishops should focus on in this interim period? And and that's to just assume that happens to set the stage for full time, bishops in 2,026. So what would happen in these 2 years? And what do you think should happen.
Carolyn Moore: Well, I I think you're exactly right that these 2 years are critical, and we have the opportunity in these 2 years to set DNA. So my my hope would be that those chosen for the role of a general episcopacy should that happen.
Carolyn Moore: use that time almost like a laboratory experience
Carolyn Moore: working in in real time, which is what Bishops Jones and Webb have done. They've worked in real time. They've worked in in within annual conferences, but also with the Tlc. With the denomination as a whole, as it has begun to form. They have tried to figure out what works and what doesn't.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Carolyn Moore: And and so I think that if we expand that general Episcopacy
Carolyn Moore: pool to 8, which is the proposal, then those 8 should work together to become unified 1st of all, to really develop a over time, to develop a very crisp, a clear and crisp job description for Bishop to really think together about what spiritual gifts are best
Carolyn Moore: operative in that role, so that we can when we're when we're talking to somebody about whether or not they should be Bishop. We're really not asking. Do you aspire to the role? Or, you know, do you have a better campaign than everybody else? Not at all.
Carolyn Moore: Do you have the gifts for this? And if not, why in the world would you want to serve here, you know? So so we're really thinking, I would think that that would be. The main role is that we serve as a laboratory while we serve the Church while we do the things that need to be done, the ordinations, the the travel, the teaching, the the the coordination as
Carolyn Moore: districts and conferences and churches continue to funnel into the Gmc. We're also constantly at work shaping that role of the Bishop, because, as as the leadership goes, so goes the denomination, I'm I'm sure of it.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, for sure. And and again, we, I just want to acknowledge, okay, I hope that even just the fact that we're doing this. This was. This was one of the one of the 2 main plans was happening. It could be that there's a different model that's accepted by general conference. So I just want to acknowledge that here that there's different legislation. Is that is that correct? Am I? Am I saying that all.
Carolyn Moore: There are. There are 2 legislative pieces being considered. Yes.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Carolyn Moore: Yes, and I and I understand your need to be to be nonpar nonpartisan
Carolyn Moore: as you're as we're discussing those yeah.
Andy Miller III: So, but but with thanks for also the spirit that I've seen of of people other people while there are differences. And I did have to look through as a delegate. I didn't know this necessarily when I accepted it. I'm 1 of these rare people, Carolyn, who wasn't Umc. Who's now in the Gmc. So maybe some others. When I I accepted the opportunity, when I was presented with the opportunity to apply and
Andy Miller III: became a a can't a delegate I didn't know I was gonna have close to 700 petition petitions to read, so.
Carolyn Moore: I know.
Andy Miller III: But anyways, I'm.
Carolyn Moore: I.
Andy Miller III: Did it, and I'm working through it. And I can sense, though even in our delegation, just a real openness, a spirit of charity. So I'm hopeful that that's what will be a part of the General Conference. Okay, I'm going to move on.
Carolyn Moore: That.
Andy Miller III: Question.
Carolyn Moore: I want to say 2.
Andy Miller III: Oh, go ahead! Go ahead!
Carolyn Moore: Just just as if, if
Carolyn Moore: if your listeners hear nothing else, I say today, I would say this.
Carolyn Moore: that especially for delegates.
Carolyn Moore: my prayer for you as you come into that amazing celebration. That will be Costa Rica's convening conference. Yes, is that you come bringing a spirit of trust, and this, and a good sense of humor.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Carolyn Moore: Been doing this for long enough to be able to say to anyone who's who's just now coming into these
Carolyn Moore: these positions of of decision making that it really does. Take a flexible spirit.
Carolyn Moore: What we say today May, you know, when it doesn't work, we all need to be able to go. Well, that was an excellent mistake. Let's move.
Andy Miller III: And.
Carolyn Moore: Try something different. But a good sense of humor will take you a long way. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, absolutely. I I sense that there is a willingness for people to embrace that sense of humor. And I'm looking forward, looking forward to that.
Carolyn Moore: Yes.
Andy Miller III: Well, you know we talk about, and you talk about your own gifts. Be fitting with what this proposal is for an interim, Bishop, and one of those areas being a teacher is is key for folks, all of us who are having to work through some key understandings of doctrine. But how do you understand the inspiration and authority of Scripture? And why is this important for us at this phase.
Carolyn Moore: It's everything. It's why we're here, really, because we do understand Scripture as being the we are people. We as Methodists, are people of one book.
Carolyn Moore: So the Bible is the word of God for the people of God. Thanks be to God.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Carolyn Moore: The the Bible is inspired by God. Every word in is, is is true. We, every word of the Scripture carries
Carolyn Moore: truth, and it is
Carolyn Moore: God's is a story of God. It gives us a clear understanding of God's character, he is
Carolyn Moore: loving, he is for us, he is full of grace. He can be trusted.
Carolyn Moore: and it also is God's he he shows us our design, which is so important when I know how I'm designed.
Carolyn Moore: and I live within that design. Now I am living the best possible life. Yeah, and the Scripture is my is my basis for understanding my design as a as a, as one created by God the Father.
Carolyn Moore: given salvation through Jesus Christ his Son, inspired with life by the Holy Spirit Himself.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Are you comfortable with the language of inerrancy?
Carolyn Moore: Believe the Bible is inerrant in its original form. Yes.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Okay, I just like. And and I'm open to I've never been one to suggest, even though our school has historically affirmed inerrancy, according to the Chicago statement on inerrancy. But I haven't been one to say that this has to be part of the Gmc. I'm just hopeful that people in Gmc are comfortable with people who from inerrancy. That's my point. Yeah.
Carolyn Moore: Yeah, there is enough in the Bible to last lifetimes. I mean, the Bible itself says, if it was, if everything that is contained in the life of Jesus Christ. Were it would it would, to take more paper than there is paper in the world, and there are trees to make the paper to say all of it. And so the Bible is enough.
Carolyn Moore: That's what I would say for me. The Bible is enough, and and here's here to take it one step further, I I would say the the
Carolyn Moore: that the the Bible, the reason the Bible is enough. Is, it points me to Jesus who is Lord. It gives me the most ancient of creeds that Jesus is Lord. And when I understand that Jesus is Lord.
Carolyn Moore: and that that that my my whole life has to fall under that lordship. Everything has to fall under that lordship. Then I begin to understand what the good life is.
Andy Miller III: Amen. And I, I think in general, this affirming everything you just said helps us, as we become a global movement that is connected to other traditions, and I just think of even the language that's in the Luzon covenant that the Bible is without error, and all it affirms, and what that's trying to say is helpful to us even in just making. Because, you know, Carolyn, I've been in some environments where some people are still suspicious.
Andy Miller III: because what they think, where maybe happened to be where they lived, maybe what region of the of the United States they live in when they hear the word Methodist. They don't think of of people who affirm the authority or the reliability of the Scripture. So that's that's in part, I think. Why, I think this is some something that I we like to highlight at Wbs.
Carolyn Moore: Yeah, yeah.
Andy Miller III: Okay. So 1 1 thing is important for us as we move into this new phase is that there are things probably as a church that we need to unlearn. But there's also some things we need to learn. What do you think those things are in order for us to be the people. God's called us to be.
Carolyn Moore: You came back.
Andy Miller III: Oh, we lost each other. Okay, so hopefully, we can get this back in. What did you hear?
Carolyn Moore: We're just heading into your next question.
Andy Miller III: Oh, man, okay. Well, hopefully, we can get this edited out that we will. All right. I'm going to give a 3, 2, 1, all right, Jeff. Here we go. 3, 2, 1.
Andy Miller III: One of the things Carolyn, is that we need to be thinking about things we can capitalize on in this moment, and I think there probably are things that we, as a church, need to unlearn in order to be the people God has called us to be. But there's probably some things, too, we need to learn. So what would you think? Some of those things we need to unlearn are? And what what do we need to learn.
Carolyn Moore: Well, I would start. I'm gonna start to sound like a broken record now.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Carolyn Moore: Would start by saying that we need to unlearn what it means to be an Episcopal leader, thinking not as administrator or excellent politician, or even as pastor to the whole church, but as apostle and prophet.
Carolyn Moore: as as evangelist, helping us to stretch our tent peg pegs as far as Methodism can stretch around the world.
Carolyn Moore: so that's where I would start. We need to unlearn that. I think we also need to unlearn the role of of any kind of spiritual leader. As all around bad Guy, we are complicit in building a culture where we distrust those in leadership
Carolyn Moore: and to the extent that any one of us immediately senses distrust in the leadership of an organization that we have voluntarily joined. The world's full of denominations. If you've joined this one. I hope you've joined it because you trust those who are helping who are serving to make it.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Carolyn Moore: To advance it. But if you've if you've got an element of distress, then that's an area of repentance that needs to be dealt with
Carolyn Moore: and I think we also need to unlearn the idea that we are constrained by what we've known. I mentioned this earlier that we don't. We're not constrained in the global Methodist church by only those areas of the world where we have where we served in the denomination. We all lived in formally, we, the whole world, is our parish. That's a very Wesleyan thing to say. So can we dream together
Carolyn Moore: about about where we might plant churches, about where we might send missionaries and evangelists about where we might extend our tent pegs about where we might build formal partnerships with those who are already on the ground in places where we aren't yet.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah. And that connects with this next question, which again connects to the emphasis you already had in this interview about evangelism. But there are approximately 3 billion people in the world who have no access to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Andy Miller III: So how would you in this role, even though it's just 2 years. Give voice to the crisis this crisis and mobilize local churches which make up the Gmc. To be responsive to that crisis.
Carolyn Moore: Yeah, I I think we just need to develop a a we've been. We've all been through a really hard time between disaffiliation and the pandemic. The last 5 years have just been tough
Carolyn Moore: on everybody, and our sense of travel and adventure has been has has shifted in those years. So but I the the world is safe again to, you know most parts of it are safe, as safe as it is for any Christian. I'll say that to travel in. And we need to reimagine what missions can look like.
Carolyn Moore: We need to. We we definitely need to develop a new emphasis and job description for an evangelist, and our new.
Andy Miller III: Movement, yes.
Carolyn Moore: And we need to look at things like I mean, just think of India, just India, E. Stanley Jones served as an evangelist and missionary in India for years.
Carolyn Moore: And there there is a Methodist presence in India.
Carolyn Moore: But what would it look like to bring spirit filled Methodism to India and to partner with those who are already on the ground there to to offer training, to, to partner, even with organizations like Ili, Peter, Pereira's group. There's so many opportunities
Carolyn Moore: to stretch her to stretch our tent. Yeah, and.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, this.
Carolyn Moore: To stretch it evangelistically, we need to sort of probably find a new way to think of of just stretching ourselves to the ends of the earth.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah. One of the challenges, I think, can be for some churches who might have had a great disaffiliation vote. Maybe they had 99% or something is to the real, not take advantage of the opportunity
Andy Miller III: to expand our horizons in this moment, like, okay, yeah, we're thankful not not to not have to have a apportionment. We're thankful to have be aligned with Scripture, but also this is an opportunity to say, this is a fresh start for us. That includes the way we respond evangelistically.
Carolyn Moore: To whom much is to who much is given. Much is expected, absolutely.
Andy Miller III: Carolyn.
Andy Miller III: One of the things that I think is important
Andy Miller III: for us, and and this is something we we want to emphasize at Wesley Biblical seminary, too, is, we realize that we're a part of this classic, evangelical world. And and in that
Andy Miller III: community there's
Andy Miller III: it often hasn't. I don't believe, been the accent or the the flavoring from the Wesleyan world. What do you believe the global Methodist church can be to the broader, classically evangelical world.
Carolyn Moore: I think, what we have to offer the the this I've thought about this a lot, what it all right. So we've already talked about the fact that Methodism's great contribution to the body of Christ is its emphasis on
Carolyn Moore: entire sanctification.
Carolyn Moore: But within that Methodist world there, there's lots of Methodist there. There are lots of denominations with a Wesleyan root to them.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Carolyn Moore: But so within that Wesleyan world, what can the Gmc. Offer? Specifically? And I believe that's spirit filled Methodism.
Carolyn Moore: I believe we have a real opportunity to emphasize the person and work of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, to become in the best, most winsome
Carolyn Moore: way of thinking about it charismatic Methodist believe that the work that Jesus sent his 1st followers out to do when he sent them out. The very 1st missionaries to cast out demons, cure diseases, proclaim the kingdom and heal the sick
Carolyn Moore: that that is available. To us, too. Methodists are not cessationists, although we often operate as practical cessationists.
Andy Miller III: Here you go!
Carolyn Moore: We believe that the Holy Spirit is alive and active in the Church. And and so how are we acting as if that is true, and and what I have found is, as I have traveled around teaching just very simple tools
Carolyn Moore: for introducing the person and work into the life of the church is that people are hungry for it. In fact, I think that's kind of it feels to me like that's a leading edge, as people have been released like calves from the stall into the global Methodist church. The thing that most excites them is the idea of exploring the spirit filled life. And so I say, let's do it. Let's.
Andy Miller III: Let's.
Carolyn Moore: Become audacious optimists who love and live and flow, and the personal work of the Holy Spirit, and and see what kind of healing we can bring into the world.
Andy Miller III: You know, as we've been in these environments where there are various groups, and this will lead into the next question, other seminaries and universities, Bible colleges and the like.
Andy Miller III: that. They've come to us who we have, what we've had. More than 500 global Methodist church pastors come through our doors, even if that's digitally over the last year and a half. We have right now close to 400 students in classes with us at Wbs. But so people have come to me and said, Hey, how do I get in the Gmc. Game, so to speak, and and so, as we've been at these conferences, and there have been other schools present. One of our professors was representing us there.
Andy Miller III: and another school from another theological tradition. We'll just say that? And we came up to him and said, so, tell me, what is this? What? What is West.
Carolyn Moore: So that's good. So.
Andy Miller III: Professor, and you can, if you all, he just preached a sermon you can find on our podcast the biblical, Wesley, and that is a chapel podcast where he just talked about the Holy Spirit problem that evangelicalism has. And so he, he said, he just basically outlined what you just said this focus on sanctification by the work of the Spirit. And this other school said, well, we don't. We don't talk about the Holy Spirit.
Carolyn Moore: That's not really.
Andy Miller III: But you might not be a good fit for the Gmc. That's kind of what.
Carolyn Moore: That's right.
Andy Miller III: But
Carolyn Moore: Because we are a Trinitarian theology. We have a Trinitarian theology. It seems like we've forgotten that. But, my goodness, if if you believe in entire sanctification, you cannot go too far down that trajectory without running into the Holy Spirit.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen! Absolutely. And so that kind of fits in just being aware of people who are wanting to serve the Church and see an opportunity, and I don't. I don't criticize other institutions for that. Can you talk to me about theological education? I can't help but get this in. This probably isn't even necessarily something a bishop would have to work with. But I just want your opinion while I have you, Carolyn, to think about theological education in the Gmc. What should it look like who should offer it? There's some legislation about this, but I'd just love to hear your thoughts.
Carolyn Moore: Well, I let me just say, let me broaden that just a little bit. To say that one great opportunity we have in the global Methodist church
Carolyn Moore: is to shake off that notion that we have to. We have to create the institutions that serve the denomination.
Carolyn Moore: So we know we don't have to create the seminaries. We don't have to create the mission organizations. We don't have to create the the Parachurch ministries that serve. We can partner with those that already exist, and that's part of how we can keep our movement lean and mean, and keep the dollars in the local church.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, it's.
Carolyn Moore: So, having said that when I think about seminaries that gives us this wonderful opportunity to go, find those seminaries that are theologically aligned.
Carolyn Moore: develop partnerships with them, and at what point they no longer theologically align with us, we set them free to do whatever it is they're doing that they feel called by God to do, and that's just so much easier than owning a thing. And you know, you just you don't have to own everything in order to benefit from its goodness.
Andy Miller III: Amen. That sounds great. Obviously it sounds great to me because I'm serving a seminary that's like that. But at the same time I think it's a good model, particularly when you look what's happened at other denominations. The way that some of that institutionalism has crept in large endowments have led it. So the faculty and the seminary aren't as accountable to the church. That's why our approach at Wbs has been. Well, we're gonna look at what the transitional book of discipline says. And we're gonna model
Andy Miller III: our program on that. We're not gonna tell the Gmc you need to have a program like this. We're gonna we're gonna listen to church and try to be responsive. And you know what it could come today. I don't think it will be there where the GM. Could see, could say, You know, you're not doing what we want. So we're not. Gonna we're not gonna partner with you. And I think that's a healthy place to be for everybody.
Carolyn Moore: Yeah, yeah, it gives us. It just gives us a much greater flexibility and and and much great greater opportunity to hold everything that we partner with with an open hand, we're not going to dictate
Carolyn Moore: who you or your seminary become. We're simply going to say, Well, you know, we'll partner with you to the extent that it benefits both of us, and to the extent that it doesn't
Carolyn Moore: move on with your lives.
Andy Miller III: Right. We move on and and be who God's calls to be. But I I don't think that's the future for Wbs and the gmc, and we're so thankful for what's happening in this exciting moment, Carolyn, I'll just give you another minute. If there's anything else you'd like to say. I'd love, if anything, that I didn't emphasize that, you'd like to add. I I appreciate the emphasis that came through, and I I certainly am invigorated as a result of that.
Andy Miller III: But anything else you'd like to say.
Carolyn Moore: Here's where I would like to end in the last year I've spoken at, I think, somewhere 8 to 10. I can't remember the number now of annual conferences, some convening annual conferences of the Global Methodist Church. Some are in their second year.
Carolyn Moore: I have yet to be in a room full of global Methodists who weren't absolutely giddy about the future.
Carolyn Moore: so much joy, so much excitement. I have loved the emphasis on worship that we've that we've that we've taken for our global gatherings. I mean our our combined gatherings. I've gotten very excited to see how deep people are going into the work of prayer. How excited they are about the person and work of the Holy Spirit! How excited they are to dream together!
Carolyn Moore: And I hope that that same.
Carolyn Moore: that same joy, that same enthusiasm, that same spirit of celebration can find us
Carolyn Moore: at in Costa Rica. As we join together to do this new thing. I am so excited to get started. Yeah, let's let Pentecost catch up with us folks.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing you there, Carolyn. Thanks so much for your time today.
Carolyn Moore: Thank you.