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An extension of the ministry of Stone Oak Bible Church. Stone Oak Bible Church is located in North Central San Antonio, TX. We would love to have you join us.
Welcome to the Stone Oak Bible Church podcast, the SOBC Pod. This is an extension of the ministries of Stone Oak Bible Church in San Antonio, Texas. This is Craig. Today, I am joined by Justin. Hey,
Justin:Justin. Hello.
Craig:Justin, I think you are officially the first repeat podcaster with me. You've done it. You're here. Yes. Man, today I'm excited to talk about this topic of communion.
Craig:Communion is something that we as a church have practiced almost every single Sunday since we've been in existence for eleven years now. There have been a few random Sundays that we haven't practiced it, either just a practical nature of we were unable to do it or it didn't fit within what we were trying to do for service. But beyond that, I think every single Sunday Yep. Since we've been in existence, we have done communion. So let's just, from the outset, let's define what is it that we are doing.
Craig:Let's define communion. So how would you say this is communion for us?
Justin:Yeah, this is a big conversation. Is one that I feel a weight as we even talk about this.
Craig:It's Why
Justin:is that?
Craig:Why do you feel the weight of this topic?
Justin:It is so vital, I think, to the church. It's one of the things that, so when I see communion, it's something that Jesus it's like a gift that Jesus gives to us as the church to remember him and to, to worship him. And one of the things that I think is important is to think about where we get this. So this is something that is rooted in scripture in the Last Supper. So Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 all talk about the Last Supper when Jesus Sorry, John.
Justin:Yeah, I'm sorry, John. When Jesus gets with his disciples and sets this out and he takes the bread and says, This is my body. He takes the cup. And, I think the important thing there is that communion doesn't come to us because it's just a tradition of the church, and it's something the church has always done, so we do it. This is something that was started, instituted by Jesus and given to us by him.
Justin:Do this in remembrance of me. And so it carries a weight with it when we think about this. And when when we talk about communion, really, want to bring out four things that I think we see in in scripture with communion.
Craig:Before you hit those, what what are other names for communion?
Justin:Communion, the Lord's Supper, the Eucharist in in more liturgical traditions. Is there
Craig:a reason that we choose to use the word communion rather than Lord's Supper rather than Eucharist?
Justin:That's a great question. I like what it communicates. For me, the Lord's Supper is also nothing wrong with calling it that. Yeah. You know, in some sense, it's a cracker in a cup, and I don't think of that as supper.
Justin:I think that's why I
Craig:think it's communion. More like the Lord's light snack.
Justin:Yeah, yeah. And I grew up with it being called communion, so some of this is probably just my upbringing. How did you grow up with it?
Craig:Yeah, for us, was I think typically it was called communion. I don't remember it ever being called Lord's Supper. Yeah. Never was called Eucharist was not a term I was familiar with until, like, undergrad.
Justin:Yeah. It feels kind of Orthodox or Catholic. Yeah, it does. Or Lutheran.
Craig:I like the idea of just the Lord's Supper, though. Just that piece. Whenever you think of supper, you think of kind of family, you think of coming around the table, you think of the meal. It reminds you of the Last Supper. Yep.
Craig:I do like that. But for me, the communion aspect is, and we'll get to it a little bit later here, is the aspect of togetherness.
Justin:Yes. Yeah.
Craig:Whenever I think of communion, think of communing. Yep. With Christ and with each other. Yes. It's kind of both.
Craig:Yeah. Okay. Continue. Yeah. Your your four things you were gonna
Justin:Yeah. I was I was gonna bring out, like, communion to me is about really four things that we see in Scripture, mainly First Corinthians when Paul talks about this, but you have this idea first of a time of reflection and kind of a confession of sin. It's a, it comes from 11 verse 28, first Corinthians eleven twenty eight, Let a person examine himself then and so eat of the drink and eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
Craig:What are we examining there?
Justin:So it's a it's an examination of ourselves and of sin. It's it's, the way Paul says is don't do this in an unworthy manner. So if you're sitting there with unrepentant, sin or hostility between you and God or you and a neighbor, that this is a chance to reflect on that, confess that, and to know that as we confess it, that there is forgiveness in Christ. And so there's a confession and repentance, and it's a time I mean, can look past that really easily in our worship, and this is a kind of a moment that's baked in the cake, so to speak, where we get to stop and to bring ourselves to the Lord and ask him to search our hearts and that we can confess and experience forgiveness. And then from that we the the one of the main things that communion does is gives us a chance to remember.
Justin:Yeah. So we remember the gospel. We are drawn back to the completed work of Jesus. We remember his sacrifice and even the elements themselves remind us of that. One of the other aspects of this that is often not talked about is that this is a way we actually proclaim the gospel.
Justin:Verse 26 of First Corinthians 11 says, As often as you do this, as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you are proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes. So this is a proclamation, a way we proclaim the gospel together, which brings to the fourth is the participation. We participate in this together as we remember together, confess our sins together, proclaim the gospel together. It's a sharing in in this act of worship together. And I think that's really powerful, and it's easy to to to miss that.
Justin:And I think there's a there's a text that comes to my mind in First Corinthians ten sixteen that says, The cup of blessing that we bless is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? So there's a there is a participation that we that we experience as we do this together. So it's not just something we think about individually, it's something that we collectively experience together as we worship Him. And so those are really the four things that I when you say what is communion, those are the four things that kind of come to my mind that or that I see in Scripture about what communion is for us as the church.
Craig:One of the interesting things is is I read the New Testament. There's many times where a meal is shared, specifically in the life of the early church and the book of Acts. And I think some of those times it is referring to communion. Other times, I don't think it's referring to communion. I think it's just referring to members gathering together to share a meal.
Craig:Is every meal that we participate in as the church communion? Or is there something distinct in in what we do? And if so, what is it that makes it distinct compared to, like, we're having a meal after church? Is it just the elements that make it distinct? Is there just the the posture of the individual that makes it distinct?
Craig:Like, what is it about communion that makes it communion, I guess, is what I'm asking?
Justin:Yeah. It's a good question because not every time that the church gathers to eat is it in one sense it's communion with each other, but it's not communion in the sense that we're using it. There's a sacrament aspect. If you kind of think about it, we have communion and we have baptism. Not every time you jump in a pool with friends at church is it called baptism.
Justin:There's something there that is, when I use the word sacrament, it's given to us by Jesus and it's something that the church does, and yes there is there is significance in the elements yes there is significance in the way it's done collectively with the church as an act of worship there's significance in the way it's led it's there's significance in the in all of that that make it distinct from just eating together. Not to put down eating together. Scripture says do that, so do that. But when we talk about communion, is a it is a very specific thing that the church does when it gathers to remember Jesus in a very specific way that he set out for us to remember him. And I think that's what makes it distinct in that.
Justin:Okay. Yeah. And we'll talk about more here in a bit, but I think that's an important distinction.
Craig:Yeah. Let's say one of those other distinctions is the aspect of Christ in communion. Yes. This is something that it's not often discussed. I don't ever remember it growing up.
Justin:We assume it, I think. We just assume that our tradition or our background is the way everyone sees this.
Craig:Yeah, absolutely.
Justin:And everyone assumes that, and we don't talk about it.
Craig:Yeah. And and then as I kind of grew in, just my own faith and understanding of, communion, the Lord's Supper, the Eucharist, to hear first and foremost, the first, like, shock to me was the Roman Catholic view of what this sacrament is and how it changes. So would you just walk us through, like, big categories, if you would, of how people view the relationship today with communion and Christ.
Justin:Yeah. Huge question here. Christians throughout history have understood this differently and in massive ways, massive ways. I want to say that up front. And one other caveat to this before I get into these different, big ways to see this is that this is by no means going to be exhaustive.
Justin:Like, this is just going to be a very brief overview of these because you can go much deeper, and I'm definitely not going to do each of these justice. Having said that, though, I really see through through church history, there's really four big buckets that you can see, Christ's presence in communion differently. The first is you brought up the Roman Catholic view. The Roman Catholic view, this is kind of we're going to learn some big words here.
Craig:There is a spelling test in
Justin:the area. You can impress all your friends. Transubstantiation is what is known as the Roman Catholic view.
Craig:I think that's the new subway system that's coming through Transubstantiation. San Antonio, if I'm The transubstantiation my subway system.
Justin:We as theologians love big words. So this is the belief that when we come to the elements in communion,
Craig:that Whenever we say the elements, what do
Justin:The bread and in the cup. When we come to these elements, this view, the transubstantiation view, is that Christ is or becomes the literal elements as they enter your mouth. So the bread and the wine are the body and the blood of Christ as you come to communion.
Craig:So I'm physically eating. You are physically eating
Justin:body and physically drinking the blood of
Craig:organ. Do we get a choice of which part it is?
Justin:And what's crazy is if you don't grow up in this few
Craig:Yeah. It sounds super weird. It sounds like, wait, It's cannibalism.
Justin:But this is foundational.
Craig:Where do they get this idea from?
Justin:You see it in the language of Scripture. You know, if you talk to it's almost like a literal reading. Like, this is my body. Yeah. Okay.
Justin:Literally, this is my body. This is my blood. And so you see it when you take some of these words literally. Now, won't get into it much here, but I would argue that there are other ways to see those texts. But that's where it comes from.
Justin:And so that's the first big bucket.
Craig:Transubstantiation, typically Roman Catholic view, that the elements transfer, the elements change actual substance Yep. To go from bread and wine, typically in a Roman Catholic view Right. To Body and blood. To the physical body of Christ and the physical blood of Christ.
Justin:Yeah. And so from that view, I want to take us just one notch, you know, closer, which is not transubstantiation, but the second one is what is called consubstantiation. So what this is, is the view that the Body of Christ and the Blood of Christ, it is not the bread and the wine fully, but what it is, is that it is the belief that His body and blood is actually present alongside of those elements. So the way it's usually said is Christ is in and with and alongside the elements as you take them. This view is held by Lutherans.
Craig:Okay. Is this physical or is this spiritual?
Justin:It is physical. Okay. It is physical.
Craig:It's not that the elements are changing into the actual body and blood of Christ, but Christ is physically
Justin:there? Yes, alongside of these elements. And so it's kind of a middle ground. It's the acknowledgment that, yeah, the bread is still there, but there's more than the bread. It's it's the body of Christ is with that bread.
Justin:It's in that bread. It's alongside of that bread. However, they
Craig:it's it's still kind of literal then. It's very literal.
Justin:Yep. Of Yep. It's not You
Craig:are, this is my body still. Yes. Yet, there's also the acknowledgment of this tastes like bread and everything. Shapes like bread
Justin:Everything I'm
Craig:chewing and drinking feels like bread and wine or juice at this point. Right. Yet Mhmm. They they acknowledge that there is something special and unique about it, and that acknowledgment comes through Christ is in what did you say? In, with, amongst?
Justin:In, with, and alongside of
Craig:Okay.
Justin:The the elements. Okay. So this view, like I said, is, predominantly the Lutheran way of thinking about communion. From there, we'll go to bucket number three, and this is going to be the next two buckets are going to be much more popular, and I would argue they're very similar. There's just a slight distinction between the two.
Justin:The third bucket is the belief that the bread and the cup are symbols. They are a remembrance that Christ is not in the elements, but the elements symbolize Christ. Often this is called memorialism, as a remembrance. Most, I wouldn't say most, many Protestant evangelicals will fall into this category. It is a remembrance.
Justin:If you are, for example, if you come from a Baptist background, this is probably going to be This
Craig:is my upbringing.
Justin:This is your upbringing. It's that that Christ is not physically in the elements, but he is remembered by. Yeah. It's a memorial. Stone.
Craig:Yes. It's memorial. Altar set up whenever we Yep. Cross the river, and we want to remember what God has done.
Justin:Yes. We see it
Craig:as these are symbols that this is not the physical body, but it is a reminder, a memoriam of what Christ has done. It's a memoriam even of our sin. It's symbolic in nature. Yep. And it's worthy to be repeated because we often forget, and therefore, it's helpful.
Craig:Yes.
Justin:Yes. And I would bet that there are many in our church that this is their background, and this is the way they see
Craig:communion. I mean, feels better than the first two.
Justin:It does. Well, depending on your background, does.
Craig:The scientific aspect of, hey, will you put this crack in your mouth and then let me test the elements and see And if it's still
Justin:that's something that is big, though, because in the first two, they hold on to the miracle of the supernatural part of this My act of background, miracles. Right. Right. And so depending on your background, it pushes. And so this gets us into the fourth bucket.
Justin:And this is very similar to bucket number three. And this is the belief, yes, it is a remembrance. Yes, it is something it is a symbol. Yeah. However, there is something in this view, there is an acknowledgment that there is something deeper than that.
Justin:And so, it is not a physical presence of Jesus' body and blood, this view believes that there is a very real spiritual presence of Christ as we come to the tables and take the elements in communion. So although Christ is not physically present in the elements, Christ is literally present spiritually with his people in communion. This view has been called a couple things. The most common thing it's called is kind of a generic, the real presence view. I've seen this in a lot of writings.
Craig:I don't
Justin:like it, but yeah. And so this view is held by, again, many in the Protestant evangelical churches, including Reformed churches fall into this category, and it's just the idea that, listen, Christ is not physically present in the bread and the cup, but it's more than just, hey, a memorial rock, like you used Ebenezer. It's more than a rock.
Craig:Yeah.
Justin:What it is, is that as we do this, there is a very real spiritual presence of Christ with his people. And so Christ is present. In other words, we're not just remembering Christ. Christ is present, not physically in the elements, but spiritually with his people.
Craig:And let me go to the triune God in the midst of this because it feels almost like we're talking out of both sides of our mouths
Justin:Mhmm.
Craig:With with this. Whenever you say the spiritual presence of Christ, I don't think of the spiritual presence of Christ. I think of the spirit The holy spirit. The holy spirit, the holy ghost.
Justin:Yep.
Craig:And so with that, is there a distinction between the spirit of Christ Yeah. That's a good question. The holy spirit. Because my assumption is, no. There's not a distinction because Christ is always present through the spirit of God.
Craig:And so what is it about this that makes it different or distinct? Like, he's always present because the spirit is always present.
Justin:It's a good question. The way that I've heard this expressed is that the Holy Spirit makes Christ real to us in communion. That's kind of a way to skirt around that answer a little bit.
Craig:No. If I if I articulate it with sermon. Yeah. Literally, all we're doing whenever we preach is saying words. Yes.
Craig:That's it. It's it's nothing special about it until the spirit of god.
Justin:Yes. The spirit of
Craig:god is able to to take the word of god proclaimed and is able to change hearts and minds and souls. And if I think of it in that aspect, the aspect of communion makes much more sense to me. Physically, it's bread that we buy from HEB.
Justin:Yeah. Good stuff now.
Craig:Yeah. It's yeah. We'll talk about that in a second. It's it's juice that we're buying from HEB off the shelf. There's nothing special about these elements, and yet there's something very special about them.
Justin:Yes. Yeah. And and the the Holy Spirit being very much alive and active in his people. And so communion then, becomes a little bit more than just the rock of Ebenezer, although that's great. We remember, we do.
Justin:But it becomes, by the power of the Holy Spirit, a genuine spiritual nourishment and worship for the church. And as we remember Jesus, the Holy Spirit makes him real to us in communion. It's it's
Craig:Okay. Let me revisit transubstantiation. Yep. Physical elements turn into physical body. Roman Catholic.
Craig:Consubstantiation. Physical elements remain physical elements, but Christ is in with and alongside physically. Physically. Yes. Memorialism.
Craig:Yep. It's bread, it's juice, but it reminds us of the Last Supper, of Christ, of his sacrifice. And the final one, real presence, is that what you Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Craig:That's the worst name of
Justin:If all of you come up with one, you know, email us.
Craig:Yeah. That Christ the the elements remain the elements, but Christ is spiritually present with his people. Yep. Very similar to memorialism, but there's an emphasis on Christ's presence. Presence of God.
Craig:Yep. Okay. So these are very heady. Yes. These are very difficult to think through.
Craig:Why why does it matter?
Justin:These things sound very academic, but and they are, judging by the sheer size of some of these words. But they do shape how we approach communion, and they shape what are our expectations in coming to the tables with the church. It does shape, how we approach this together. Yeah. So it's more than just academic.
Justin:It does have very practical implications for us, even though you don't need to know the terms, but it does shape.
Craig:As a church, where do we land with with these four?
Justin:Yeah, it's a good, good question. So we I believe that in our church right now, by and large, we have a collection of people in bucket 3 And 4. I would argue, me personally, and just from what I see in Scripture and in the church, gravitate toward and I think I hate it because it's the worst term, but real presence because of yes, we are remembering, but yes, Jesus is alive and he is present with his people. We are not alone. Are and so that that whole thing we we land there as a church.
Justin:I do reject transubstantiation and consubstantiation. I don't think that is necessary or the most like when Jesus says I am the vine, I don't go out to my yard and grab a vine and say, This is Jesus. I think there's a very similar impulse to want to read things literally. But man, when you read something literally that wasn't meant to be read literally, it does it. It's not true.
Justin:So, anyway, I I, yeah, I I think we have some that are memorialists and, real presence. Our church is kind of right there in that in that range.
Craig:Do the elements matter? I asked this because I remember during COVID I know where you're going with this. There was a specific church that said, just grab whatever is around you.
Justin:Like chips and salsa really big.
Craig:Bread and Doritos and Kool Aid. Yeah. Yeah. Like, is it do the elements matter in some form or fashion?
Justin:I want to be careful here. I don't want to be a legalist and say something that the Bible doesn't say. However, I would argue yes in the sense that there is something sacred to this moment, and when we bring it down to such an ordinary Doritos and Kool Aid. Yeah. In some sense, are I think we are missing the weight of this moment.
Justin:And that, I think, is the biggest thing that we run the risk of doing when we say, Hey, it doesn't matter. Just grab whatever. Having said that, I don't want to be a legalist and say, It has to be this kind of bread, it has to be this kind of That's, I think, the heart of it is, are we taking this seriously? Are we seeing the full weight of what we're doing? Yeah.
Justin:I think that's the heart.
Craig:And you preached even last Sunday about leaven. Yeah. There's an aspect of it's typically unleavened bread. It's bread without any yeast in it, so it doesn't it's not soft. It's usually crunchy bread.
Craig:Yeah. Yep. Let's say, Justin, I'm gonna put you on the spot. You're rewriting the Bible. K?
Craig:You you have the power and authority to change the elements to whatever you want, and it's not sacrilegious. It can be whatever you want. Is it going to be Doritos for you? I'm assuming chips and salsa would be go
Justin:to for take chips and salsa,
Craig:make I'm it going Hawaiian rolls. I'm going Hawaiian roll. I think that's that's the the bread of choice or maybe like a a good potato roll. Uh-huh. Either of those.
Craig:And being in San Antonio, think it has to be Big Red as well. That's the one the that's San Antonio drink. So gross. Agree. And so for us as a church, why do we practice communion?
Craig:What what is it about it that it's like, hey, you should do this?
Justin:We touched on this a little bit, but I want to I want to bring out just a few things. One, again, we so easily forget, what matters most. We forget the gospel. We forget. It's not that we forget like, wait, who is Jesus?
Justin:What are you? But it's we get distracted away from it, and what communion does is it gives us a weekly reminder to anchor ourselves back into the gospel of Jesus Christ. It brings us back again and again and again, and we're prone to forget. So we practice communion because we need the reminder, and I think Jesus set that out for us, so clearly. Do this as often as you do in remembrance of me.
Justin:We need to be reminded. The second thing is it is a proclamation of the gospel. We brought this up, but this is kind of a visible sermon. Every time I see our church get up from our seats, go to the tables, it is a proclamation of the gospel to each other, that we are not alone, that we are surrounded by brothers and sisters. The gospel is on display even before it is preached every week.
Craig:It's one of the interesting enough, it's one of the most evangelistic times
Justin:It is.
Craig:In in our Sunday morning services. It is. The amount of times that I've heard people understand the gospel because of the act of communion. Just I think reaffirms in in my pastoral heart just the need for communion. I remember we had a young man.
Craig:I got to see him partake of communion the very first time after his salvation. Yep. And the joy that he experienced in partaking, as well as there's the community aspect, the amount of people that had been praying for him and got to rally around him as he partook of communion for the very first time. Something that that I'll always remember just is seeing the joy of a new believer taking communion for the first time, as well as a lot of kids. We do communion with kids still in service with us.
Craig:And a lot of children have it's that missing out factor. It's the FOMO of the service of
Justin:Why can't I do it?
Craig:Yeah. Yep. And and so it's yeah. I think it it still is one of the most evangelistic times in our service.
Justin:You are absolutely right. We've had more people respond to the gospel for the first time in communion in that moment of our service than in any other moment of our service, including sermon, including worship, including, you know, the music and all of that. This is by far the most the time that the most people have responded to the gospel. Yeah. And that's because it proclaims it.
Justin:Proclaims it. And and you know that leads to something you touched on is the the third thing is that we participate together in this. It's it's, we are together getting up like that in and of itself. Sometimes church can become a spectator sport. You just come and you sit and you watch and you watch the professionals do their thing and then you go home.
Justin:Communion is a way a time where you actually get up out of your seat.
Craig:In our context,
Justin:at least. Yeah, in our context. You go grab something, you come back and you are participating. You are eating it. You're not watching someone else eat it.
Justin:Yeah, You're eating it. It's participation. And I think that goes along with why this has become one of the most impactful moments of our service because you're participating. You're not watching. You're not just listening.
Justin:You're doing something.
Craig:So In my context, even I said in our context, whenever you mentioned we get up and go to the tables. In my context, growing up, we had the plates that were passed down the aisle. You don't realize how much, like, 30 little cups of juice weighs until you're like an eight year old kid and you're past the plate.
Justin:And wanting not to spill it. Yeah, absolutely. But
Craig:there's still a participatory nature even of that. We have the deacons kind of at the end of each row that would pass the plates back and forth as special music was sung. And is that piece of it is still even in that method of partaking of the elements that it is still participatory.
Justin:Yeah, and it's big. And think another part of communion, the fourth thing is we not only look back, but we look forward. We anticipate what is forward. You brought up my favorite part. It is.
Justin:It it's it's incredible because the Lord's Supper, you brought up, it reminds us of the last supper that that is coming. And this is just a glimpse of what is coming for us, what our hope is in Christ when we will be with him, eat with him, and and all shall be well. Like, it points us forward to that moment, and, communion does this each and every week for the church.
Craig:Let's hit that piece now. Each and every week. So this is, again, this is different than my upbringing. I was a communion happened quarterly Yeah. Within the life of our church, and it was quarterly as long as we remembered.
Craig:Yep. There wasn't like a set. It's the first Sunday of the quarter. It was, oh, we haven't done it this quarter. We should probably
Justin:do it this And
Craig:then it's like, okay, well, who's going to go buy the bread and the juice?
Justin:Yep.
Craig:Where are all of the the plates stored at? Let's make sure we clean them from last time. So in in our context, we practice this weekly. Why in the world do we practice it weekly?
Justin:Okay. There is no Bible verse that says, thou shalt take communion as a church weekly and I want to acknowledge
Craig:Nor is there one that says you shall take it monthly or quarterly or once a year.
Justin:No, they say do it, doesn't say how the frequency of it and I want to say that upfront. As a church, though, our our taking communion weekly comes down to wisdom. We believe it's the wisest thing for our church and the most faithful thing for our church to do. The reason for that is one, it keeps the gospel central in every single gathering we have. We are not going to miss the gospel each time we gather because we are coming back to it in communion.
Justin:It is like a built in mechanism for us to come to the gospel as his people every week, which we think that is incredibly important. Number two is I think it it, man, we are shaped by what we repeat. Like if we repeat something every week over time, that shapes you. It's like, if if you want to know, you know, your health, well, health, your health physically is what you repeat every day. It's what you eat every day and how you write.
Justin:And so as a church, this is a formation habit. It forms us, and and it really becomes and is a part of our discipleship. And I want to I want to communicate that as clearly as I can. Communion is a part of our discipleship because it is a formation habit that we repeat and it forms us over time. And the last thing I'll say is there is a biblical you know, it reflects the rhythms that we see of the early church in acts and, you know, that they gathered together to do this.
Justin:And so there is a reflection of the rhythms that we see in the early church as well. But I think the biggest thing is it centers us on the gospel and it shapes us in our discipleship.
Craig:I often say that every week we we proclaim the gospel through song, sacrament, sermon, and prayer. I need an S for But it's what we do in our service is when we gather on Sundays, we proclaim the gospel in different ways. I'm hoping to get Caitlin on coming up soon, but just the songs that we sing should be a proclamation of the gospel. It should be a reminder of the gospel. It should be Christ's presence spiritually.
Craig:Yep. Just as with sermon and just as with sacrament. It's it's a different way to participate in the gospel. And it shapes us. It's also just thinking through the teacher side of me.
Craig:You have Bloom's taxonomy, you have the hierarchy of teaching. You have the aspect of people learn in different modes and methods. And what we're seeing in just the education sphere is that people are less likely to learn through conversation now, and they're more likely to learn through hands on participation, which is one of the reasons I think that we're seeing probably such an influx as I'm as I'm speaking and thinking of evangelism happening through the act of communion.
Justin:Yep.
Craig:More so even than through the act of sermon right now. Yeah. They're all distinct and different and hit different elements, but I I see them all as necessary. Yep. In the life.
Craig:And it's also one of those things where if you we remember back to the days of COVID where we were online church, this was the thing that I think I missed the most.
Justin:Oh, yeah.
Craig:About being away from our church body was just participation in communion. Yeah. It it was something that was I remember the first time we came back, it was something I was so excited to get to participate in communion together with our gathered body. Yeah. So it was it was great.
Craig:So we as a church, we've made a shift and we've made a change not only in the flavor and texture of our communion. By the way, my favorite part right now of Sunday mornings is whenever we say, everybody eat the bread, and just that audible crunch.
Justin:It's so loud in the room.
Craig:It is so loud. It's the audible crunch right now of everybody eating the communion wafer at the same time. So we've recently shifted how we do communion. Yeah. What's going on with that?
Justin:There wasn't anything wrong with the way we've been doing it. I wanna say that up front. Okay. But we have made a switch.
Craig:Are there wrong ways to do communion?
Justin:Yeah. Okay. Again, it goes back to the heart, I think. Yeah. And and there are many And different what it communicates, right?
Justin:Like, yeah, an easy example of this is at our church, you're never going to have communion be placed on your tongue by an elder or pastor.
Craig:Yep, that's odd.
Justin:And the reason why is not because it's just weird, but it's because of the theology behind it. Yeah. There is now in Christ no other mediator needed. Yep. So therefore, we, I as a pastor, am not mediating grace to you.
Justin:You come to the table because of what Jesus has done, not because of what I So anyway, that One
Craig:of my favorite things is to go into a new church and figure out where their communion table is located, the physical location. This is something that shifts and change with the Reformation. Typically, go into a Catholic church today, the communion table is pushed behind the pulpit, pushed behind where the Word of God is proclaimed. In the Reformation, the table was physically moved from behind to in front of. In my upbringing, it was you had a stage, and at the front of the stage was a big wooden table that said, In remembrance of me.
Craig:Yep. And that was where the elements were held. And it's the unspoken aspect of there is no mediator between
Justin:There's no one between you anymore. Yeah.
Craig:Between the participant and the elements themselves.
Justin:These things matter. They communicate something.
Craig:Okay.
Justin:Yeah. And so there's it's not that we're saying that the way we did it was wrong, but what we are saying is that as we looked at it as elders, as pastors, we we thought we could be more clear in in in how we how we communicate what communion is. And so our old approach was we would go as individuals or as families to the table. We would get the elements, then we would go off, kind of in clumps and family units or sometimes individually, but a lot of times together with family or with someone who is sitting beside you or friends, and we would take communion there with that unit.
Craig:Yeah.
Justin:Right?
Craig:The individuals would kind of pray over.
Justin:Pray over it and and and take it just as a smaller unit.
Craig:Mhmm.
Justin:And there's a beauty in that. There's wonderful conversations. There's wonderful discipleship and gospel proclamation that happens in that. It was beautiful to see the room just in prayer together taking. So there's there's a lot of positives to that.
Justin:We we switched to a new approach, though, where now we get up, we go to the tables, we get the elements, and then we return back to our seats holding the elements, don't take them yet, and then we take them together as one body, as one of our elders leads us through communion. And so that's our new approach.
Craig:It's a re emphasis of different things. Both ways are good. Both ways proclaim the gospel. Both ways I think are biblically faithful. But each way, emphasizes something a little different.
Justin:It does.
Craig:In the first way, it emphasizes the family. It emphasizes the kind of smaller group. Yeah. Where the new way that we're doing it, I think, emphasizes something else completely.
Justin:Yeah, it emphasizes first unity as a church like this isn't just a family moment. It is. It's a church family moment, though. We're one body and not not a collection of isolated units, but we are one body. And this kind of emphasizes that.
Justin:There's also an acknowledgment of care, pastoral care, for those who come alone or for those who don't have a believing family.
Craig:Yeah.
Justin:Right? That this gives them the ability to participate in this, and it kind of expresses a belonging to the family of God in And I think that's really beautiful. It also you brought this up, but it reinforces that we're being led together. There is an elder that is shepherding us through this moment. There is instead of many small moments in the auditorium, it becomes one shared moment, which that communicates something.
Justin:I think that's important. And then along with that, I think it emphasizes the nature of communion itself. Communion is a corporate or collective participation. It's not just individual reflection where you go to your own prayer closet and you close your eyes with your elements and you take and remember, there is a there is a sense of reflection personally. But communion itself is a participation with the body, with the family.
Justin:And this just, I think, emphasizes that, teaches that a little bit more clearly. And I think as a church, that's important.
Craig:Yeah. There's there's also the practical nature of as a visitor, it was odd. Yeah. It was. It was one of those things where anytime someone would come, it was, hey, just so you know, we do communion each week.
Craig:Yeah. Which okay. That's that's different, I think, for a lot context. But then I would also have to give the instruction of, and hey, we're going to go together as a family unit. You can join our family unit or you can go with your own family unit if you come with a family unit.
Craig:That piece, as a visitor, was one of the, okay, that's different and unique. Not necessarily incorrect or bad, but it did kind of It was a stepping hurdle almost for anybody that was new. And then as elders also, realize for anybody that's single and alone, the aspect of communion is communing, is public, Excuse me. It's public, and it's corporate Yeah. And personal.
Craig:And yet in the old way of how we were doing things, we emphasized that personal so much that it was almost to the detriment of any single individual within our church, which is never what we wanted to do. It was just kind of an unintentional way of how we did things. Yeah. So,
Justin:yeah. And so our goal here with all of this is not just to be different and to be cool and trendy and think of different ways to do things. Yeah. Our goal in this and then the switch and with communion, we want to be faithful, clear and helpful to our church and communion, as we've talked about, is such a part of our discipleship and our growth and our nourishment in Jesus. So because of that, we want to be clear on this.
Justin:We want to make sure that we are clear on this, and every week I'll go back to this, We want to proclaim the gospel. We want to reflect, remember, proclaim, and participate in worship as our church family. And in communion, we we experience the the go back to the real presence of Christ through his spirit. Were physical, not the physical. We remember the completed work of Jesus every single week.
Justin:And, like you said in your favorite part is we look forward to the return of Jesus and communion. It centers us on the foundation of the gospel every week, and that's why it's so vital.
Craig:It's important. My favorite part of each one of those sentences is the we. Yes. It's not the I experience the presence of Christ that I remember the completed work of Christ that I look to the return of Christ, although that is true. Mhmm.
Craig:It's a we. It is one of those aspects of the local body. When we come together, having the ability to gather together in the way that we do to participate in communion. It's one of my favorite things. Justin, anything else on communion?
Justin:I don't think so. This was a heavier, probably longer Theologically rich. But it was necessary Yeah. And needed, I think.
Craig:Well, I think because we're getting a different view on communion, and people I'm sure are wondering
Justin:And learn some big words.
Craig:What happened. Yeah. Hey. The quiz, transubstantiation. Good luck writing that one today.
Craig:Church, it's been great to be with you. Looking forward to gathering with you the next time we see each other. Have a wonderful day and week.