This is How Mastering the Art of Adaptability will Make Your Start Up Thrive

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In this episode of the Cult Products Podcast, hosts Adam Yaya-Durrant and Alexandra Pointet discuss the challenges and experiences of transitioning from traditional employment to entrepreneurship. They delve into topics such as imposter syndrome, the importance of mentorship, adaptability in roles, and the dynamics of building a team. The conversation emphasizes the need for continuous learning and the inevitability of change in the entrepreneurial journey.

takeaways
Imposter syndrome is a common challenge for entrepreneurs.
Adaptability is crucial when transitioning from employee to entrepreneur.
Mentorship can provide invaluable support and guidance.
It's important to embrace change and be willing to learn new skills.
Building a strong team requires understanding each member's strengths and weaknesses.
Financial management is a key aspect of running a business.
Establishing a good relationship with an accountant can save money in the long run.
Consistency and discipline are essential for self-motivated entrepreneurs.
The people element of business can be complex but rewarding.
Your role in a startup will evolve and change over time.

Creators & Guests

Host

Adam Yaya-Durrant

Co-founder of Yaya

Host

Phill Keaney-Bolland

Co-founder of Yaya

Producer

Alexandra Pointet

Producer of the Cult Products podcast

What is Cult Products?

Dive into the essentials of start-up success with Cult Products, hosted by Yaya's co-founders, Adam Yaya-Durrant and Phill Keaney-Bolland. This podcast delivers sharp insights on creating revolutionary products, radical branding, and attracting a loyal following of early adopters. Whether you're starting out or scaling up, each episode is packed with actionable advice and stories from those who've built successful businesses. Join Adam and Phill as they help you transform bold ideas into start-up success.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (01:28)
So it's just, you're just left with two of us today, but we're going to tackle a topic which has come up quite a few times in some of the chats that we've had with founders. And it's a little bit on stuff we've touched before, but we think it's really interesting and it's something that definitely Alex and I.

have kind of a lot of experience with now and some views on. And it's kind of like, it's a little bit around the imposter syndrome kind of complex. A lot of people find it quite super daunting, making that leap and starting a business, especially if they've kind of gone through which let's be like Frank, everyone does a very linear kind of career path. Myself as a graphic designer, designer, that's the kind of path that I

and it was kind of fairly kind of clear and of that kind of progression through those stages. Alex is, we're going to her kind of background, but it's more of a product, project manager. So again, quite a kind of clear cut, black and white kind of job description. So how do you kind of make that leap from going from that kind of role into running a business is what we're going to kind of unpack today, right Alex?

Alexandra Pointet (02:48)
Yeah, we'll do a bit of that. Probably a good place to start because obviously our listeners would have heard a lot about you and Phil and your background, but my background, I can give you a bit of a 411 as they say. So I joined Yaya about four years ago and joined the guys as a project manager, like supporting with this traditional project management.

tasks and that was my job spec, that was it. But then it swiftly became apparent that my project management expertise were going to need to be expanded, let's say. So yeah, just started doing lots of other things. yeah, traditionally, like my linear career path was project management, project director, project coordinator to begin with, many, many moons ago.

And yes, it's joining you, Adam and Phil. Yeah, I can say I hate the expression, but it's when people say, yeah.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (03:55)
You're gonna say I need the hats. You're gonna say, cause I was thinking it then. I was thinking literally, someone's gonna say I've had to wear many hats and I'm so glad, well, I've just said it annoyingly, but I'm so glad it was gonna be coming from you.

Alexandra Pointet (04:00)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

You said it!

I did put a massive caveat around it though, like if anyone didn't know what I was going to say they, yeah, maybe they, maybe everyone was expecting it.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (04:15)
I know.

Everyone was expecting it, but it, it massively is true. Right. And that's the kind of fundamental thing in, in starting the business, that adaptability piece. And that's why, you know, it isn't for everyone. because you do have to kind of, you know, navigate your way through so many different things and challenges. How did you find that then in terms of transferring from kind of, digital product management, which you still do.

with all the other million things you do. And do you kind of like miss that kind of role and compared to the role you have now, which is kind of doing everything and helping run the business essentially.

Alexandra Pointet (04:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, first, firstly, how did I find it? So to begin with, I guess I was probably a little bit shocked that I was getting asked to do like, do you mind doing all the invoicing? And do you mind looking at all our finances? And do you mind just doing this? And I was like, okay, it's a little bit out of my wheelhouse, let's say, but sure, if you want me to, let's go for it. So I do feel like,

my God, these guys think I'm have way more knowledge on this stuff than I do. Maybe I'm giving off a finance vibe, I don't know.

They, yeah, definitely. They really...

Adam Yaya-Durrant (05:37)
Well, you do wear lot of green Alex, so we just associated that with the fact that you might like finance.

Alexandra Pointet (05:47)
Anyway, yeah, love green. But yeah, I just thought, gosh, know, I definitely had that imposter kind of syndrome in the fact that I was like, my goodness, I don't think they'd know what I do.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (05:48)
That's it, yeah.

yeah, well, I think that's like, I think we wouldn't have given you those tasks if we didn't think you could do them. And then obviously I think the way that your personality and kind of kind of attitude towards those things is why, you know, that's why we've been working together for so long. And that is fundamentally a really, really important thing in terms of...

Alexandra Pointet (06:27)
Yeah.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (06:34)
having kind of the people that you find found a business with if you are starting business with a partner, you're obviously going to have like different skills, key skills, it's really good to make sure that your skills complement each other. And you know, and you do have to do a lot of different things. I think, and those especially in those early stages, you really kind of work out the things that you're good at and not so good at, which there's a lot of things that, you know, I'm

Alexandra Pointet (06:59)
Yeah.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (07:02)
I'm pretty good at and there's some stuff that I'm terrible at, like for example, like, you know, anything to do with finance and spreadsheets generally, not very good with numbers, but luckily, you know, Phil's extremely good on that front. And you know, likewise, the three of us kind of work in that way where we know we play to each other's strengths. So.

Alexandra Pointet (07:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's definitely like having the kind of outlook that you just got to get stuck in and be willing to learn and give things a go and whether you're going to be very good at it or you just realize very quickly that you're not going to be very good at it. that doesn't matter. It's just making sure that you're, you know, trying it out essentially. I think that the thing about starting a business is that, you know, you're not going to be doing just your

Adam Yaya-Durrant (07:31)
Mm.

Alexandra Pointet (07:54)
role with just your one hat, you're going to have loads of different roles within it. And that is what makes it a bit more interesting, to be honest, because not to get, not to be a downer, but we're going to be working for a long time in our lives. So you might as well try lots of different things and then, you know, your career path will swerve a bit and be the nonlinear type of career path, which will make your life a bit more interesting. And you know,

you're getting skills along the way. So it is about that adaptability piece, I suppose.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (08:28)
Can ask you something? It's a really interesting question because I've asked myself this sometimes. Do you think now you've had this exposure to running a business and all the different nuances to it? Do you think you could go back to the steady nine to five and a simplified... I sometimes I dream of that sometimes, for sure, but the reality is I don't know if I could do that.

Alexandra Pointet (08:35)
Hmm.

Yeah, sometimes for sure. I do, sometimes I guess the routine might be quite a good thing for me, but actually when you know what's coming every day and day out, it is a bit more humdrum. So I actually, I don't know, it's really hard because who knows what's going to happen in my life, but I...

present, I would say that I would still find it quite hard to go back to that and not having the flexibility and freedom to a certain extent in what we're doing and how you do things. that's one thing that I really would struggle to go back to working for a big organization or a big, big, big agency. there's so many stakeholders and hierarchies and

all that so it definitely it's a great environment to be in for people at a certain time of their life but for me now I'd say that I don't think I could I really don't think I could.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (09:58)
no, think that's that's a really, I'm not knocking that those larger organisations and the people that work within those roles, I think I think it is a situational thing, isn't it? And like where you're at in your life, and I guess, in terms of like what you want to achieve and different exposure to different experience, different things and learning and learning new things, because it's quite interesting, because I think people sometimes assume that

Alexandra Pointet (10:10)
Okay.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (10:24)
If you're running a business, kind of know everything and you don't know anything. just always kind of just always just kind of make it up as you go along. And I say that in the sense of like, obviously guidance around that. And one thing I'd mentioned and advice to people is get, get mentors, get like people who are more experienced than you. Mentorship is something that was massive for us at the start. And we kind of use that a lot.

Alexandra Pointet (10:28)
Mm.

Mm.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (10:49)
to soundboard things that we've just never done before, like from more practical things like, how the hell do we write an SOW? Like what happens with like legal stuff? you know, lean on like your network to help provide things like accountants, things like legal people, all the stuff that's a little bit like feels quite overwhelming. And, know, when we talk to...

Alexandra Pointet (10:57)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (11:12)
people in the kind of mental group that we do, that's the stuff that they're like, you know, that they kind of stifles them. And I think it stops a lot of people from actually starting businesses as well, because they feel this kind of like, well, I'm a great designer, I can start a really good agency, but I just don't have a clue about how to run a business and everything that entails. And it is like, you know, you have to do split your time up, you have to, as Alex said, wear many of those, those hats.

Alexandra Pointet (11:21)
Mm.

Yeah.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (11:40)
But yeah, all right. Yeah, do it. Okay. Yes. But you do have to split your time up and you do you can't just be doing like the creative stuff. You know, you're, guess for me, like my kind of experience is it like, I kind of didn't really think about, didn't really think too much ahead of like that kind of stuff. I kind of just went into it. I had been freelancing, so I kind of knew a bit of

Alexandra Pointet (11:41)
I'm going to put a buzzer down for every time we say that.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (12:09)
about my, like the intricacies about running a business, but not to the scale of obviously running Yaya. and it's very quickly that you kind of realize that yes, you are a designer still, but you're more, most importantly, a business owner and you've got responsibilities, whether that's like paying your VAT or whether it's, you know, like supporting and, you know, building a team and all that kind of stuff. So it just very quickly changes. And it's quite like, it's quite

Alexandra Pointet (12:14)
Mm.

Yeah.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (12:38)
I don't know, it's quite scary but exciting at the same time.

Alexandra Pointet (12:41)
Yeah, you could definitely get really bogged down by all those pretty heavy going admin things. it can be really daunting. But yeah, you said, if you have a mentor and someone or someone even that's just done it before that can support you a bit, then that's obviously gonna, you know, you're going to reap the rewards from having that person having that sounding board

Adam Yaya-Durrant (13:01)
of my biggest tips in those early days, get a really good accountant, know, pay a bit more if you have to for better service, because, you know, they'll save you much more money in the long run. That's something that I've made a mistake in a previous role, previous job, having a good accountant is really, really great way to like, foundationally sets you up correctly.

Alexandra Pointet (13:06)
Mm.

Mm.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (13:26)
Get all your kind of operational bits in place early before you kind of maxed out all your spreadsheets. Like, you know, you can kind of do so much on spreadsheets, but start to like invest in operational tools at an early stage. So you can track like business development. So you can track kind of things like projects, project management and all that kind of stuff. What would you say? Would you agree with that Alex? Cause I think we're quite, we're quite, we've quite sophisticated like from.

Alexandra Pointet (13:27)
Yeah.

Yeah. Wee sees, wee sees.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (13:56)
I don't know. But what did you think?

Alexandra Pointet (13:58)
Well, we, was just going to say where we first started, when I first joined you, we used to use Monday, didn't we, for all our sort of new business sales and even just having those sessions every week, you know, making sure that we were having that time, an hour, an hour and a half, whatever it might be, to kind of go through that list and make sure that people were doing their, you know, following up on their actions or whatever with these contacts that we had through, you know, mentors or through LinkedIn.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (14:04)
Mm.

Alexandra Pointet (14:28)
it's a really good focus point. So it doesn't even have to be Monday or anything at that very outset. don't think, know, anything like that could just be a spreadsheet just as long as you're having those, have something down and having that focus around it.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (14:38)
Yeah, it's...

think that's a really good, really good point. think it's that consistency, which is really key and discipline, which I think when you're a smaller business, it's and some of the guys who like who have founders on their own have said, like mentioned this that, you know, self motivation and self discipline is really difficult when you're like your own kind of boss. And I would, I definitely find like, you know, that

Alexandra Pointet (14:47)
Mm.

Yeah.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (15:10)
for me is something that I massively struggle with as an individual. And that's why like working with others is massively beneficial to me because, you know, you're, not accountable for just yourself. You kind of, you you have responsibilities. So, but if you can, if you are working, if you are starting out on your own, keeping some consistency in terms of like, when you do stuff, like, you know, being quite, diary focused, so having a time slot for when you do.

business development, like we do ours on the Monday at a certain time, when you do planning, when you do those things that you should try and do as an individual, you have to do really to a certain extent, keeping those in and just keeping some kind of consistency around those things, I think is really a key point and something that's

Alexandra Pointet (15:57)
Yeah

is really useful having those specific allocated time slots to focus on those certain things. But that, as you say, can often get pushed back and pushed back, but you just have to keep going with them.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (16:14)
And again, these are all kinds of things that I really didn't have any exposure to before, like, you know, coming into starting Yaya, you know, just my job is to do the creative direction and design and make things look great. And I'm playing down the role of brand. But what I mean by that is just none of these kind of more operational things were really, they were all kind of taken care of by someone else and didn't really think too much of them.

Alexandra Pointet (16:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, well on the flip side for me, like before Yaya, I was always just on the side of ops and project management, whereas coming into Yaya, I now like edit videos, art direct things, oversee creative, much more than I ever did before at any other job.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (16:57)
You do.

Alexandra Pointet (17:05)
Yeah, working in a startup has given me the opportunity to be able to do that. And I love it. It's great. But yeah, it's something that wasn't in my job spec when I joined.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (17:15)
Yeah, that is something that's interesting if you are like, you know, regimented to a job spec. And that's kind of like you can some people are like they want they need those kind of those constructs to do their role. I think I think I advise would be also like, you know, don't don't don't hire those people because as hard as that sounds, but they won't enjoy working at a startup because

Alexandra Pointet (17:27)
Mm, very, very black and white.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (17:43)
We know how like, you know, chaotic it can be. And if they, you know, they need to know that the reality of like the business is, just, it's just not like that at the start. The processes aren't in place. So advice is, know, if you're like that, probably isn't right for you to, start up a business. Cause you know, the, kind of the biggest thing that you have to embrace is change. And is the fact that

Alexandra Pointet (17:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (18:10)
you know, every day is often different and there's often like, you know, smaller and bigger problems that you have to solve on a regular. And so yeah, if you are not that character and you know, you just need to have very clear definition about what your duties are then yeah, this is probably not the right one for you.

Alexandra Pointet (18:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, do you think it would work if there was someone who was very, very this is my box and I'm going to stay in it. And then they, you know, went into business with someone who was very, you know, not that built at all. Do you think that would work? Or is it like, do you think you need to be?

Adam Yaya-Durrant (18:49)
That's a really good question. I think maybe the collaboration could work. But at end of the day, you need to both support each other and know when to push and pull. If one person says, you don't like doing sales, so I'll pick up the sales and I'll pick up the invoicing and I'll do this and I'll do that, then it's just going to be very lopsided and that's not scalable.

Alexandra Pointet (18:55)
Hmm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (19:18)
I kind of, didn't really think about the fact that for some reason, just didn't think about the fact that we're to have to be doing sales the way that we are. you know, like going out and doing proposals. I just didn't really envision the actual reality of that. And until we, until we actually did it. And then I realized how much my time was spent in that world compared to designing. Which, which initially when I think me and Phil and I did an exercise when we first started the business and he was like,

He said to me, how much time do you think you should be spending doing design? How much time do you think you should be spending doing like, you know, working on the business or working, working for the business, working at the business and grew kind of drew like a little kind of pie chart. And I kind of was very much like, yeah, well, I want to be like, you know, doing all the art direction and being upfront and, you know, on the tools and creating and so I'm going to say like,

Alexandra Pointet (20:12)
Yeah.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (20:15)
70, like 80, 90 % designing. And then he was like, wrong. And I was like, and I think when I first saw that, like the pie chart get swiped right down to like the reality of like the situation of what it would entail, think initially my heart sunk because I was like, but I'm a, but I'm a designer. want to design and create. What have I signed up for? Like, this is a, this isn't what I envisioned.

Alexandra Pointet (20:21)
Ehh.

What have I signed up for?

Ha ha ha.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (20:45)
But no, and so initially I did then have that kind of like shudder of like, okay, you know, this is, this is, this isn't the, it's going to be quite different to what I assumed. So, but then, know, then behold, kind of feeling a bit out of my comfort zone and things has really like given me so much more fulfillment. Cause I was like sitting on a pretty comfy chair, I think before riding the linear kind of progression through being a designer.

Alexandra Pointet (21:05)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. Design, design guy. What do you think's been the most sorry, it's getting a bit reflective. But what do you think has been the most out of your comfort zone moment? Do you think of of yaya

Adam Yaya-Durrant (21:27)
There's interesting, because it's been like ones where like, we've just had to like, go and do workshops in crazy places. And they're like, you know, that's felt a little bit uncomfortable, but that's mainly due to just because of like timelines or something like that. I think initially the sales stuff, and I think that's what everyone we speak to is really like nervous of like, kind of doing business development, like how do I like

Alexandra Pointet (21:28)
the biggest thing.

Thank

Yeah.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (21:54)
have conversations with people that don't feel like a sales conversation, or I'm trying to sell them something. And there's no real, you know, kind of way of, there's no, there's no way of really training it. Yeah, I don't know. It's like, you it's, it's, if you're a likable person, if you can chat, if you're like a friendly person, just reach out to the people and, you know, go for coffees and things just kind of organically.

Alexandra Pointet (22:08)
Cool way.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (22:22)
like doors organically open and projects and connections like naturally happen. For me, that's always been like, like, the kind of go to there. And when I, because my initial thoughts and we've talked about in previous pods about, refrend of the pod, Ben, about sales and, and, and how to like, you know, how to show up and be yourself. And that's how important that is. but yeah, I think that was the thing that I literally was like,

Alexandra Pointet (22:24)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (22:50)
I don't have a clue like how to do that. you know, I hadn't really written things like SOWs or proposals or stuff like that before. But then once you crack it, you start really enjoying it, because it's something different as well than what you're usually used to. And so I think it's like the initial, gosh, and then like, once you kind of get used to it, becomes a bit more like bread and butter, I guess. What about you?

Alexandra Pointet (23:03)
Yeah.

Yeah, and also.

Yeah, well, there's been quite a few. mean, there's been some kind of big, kind of stakeholder meetings that I never would have done, I don't think, before beforehand, which are very much like, I don't know, kind of put off and put off getting them in the diary and stuff, but you just kind of...

Like have to eat the is this is the expression eat the toad or eat the frog like where you're just Yeah, how to eat an elephant yeah, I do think but eat the the frog is like, you know doing the scarier out of your comfort zone things but getting them done earlier and then you just feel so much but I think I think it's eat the frog or eat the toad anyway, I'm gonna look it up

Adam Yaya-Durrant (23:48)
Well, last Eat the Elephant. Did you remember that? Like Phil said that one. How to eat an elephant.

And it yeah.

Alexandra Pointet (24:07)
And then you just feel better, so good for doing it and getting it done because it's then it's done. You're like, I can do this now. So that's another thing to add to my to my belt. Like managing hats, belts, frogs.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (24:18)
That's it though.

frogs. What else do we need to cover? Yeah, I think that's a really good one. And I think actually, that's something that I think we just kind of forget after a while, because I guess, you know, another thing, which is great about, you know, starting a startup and running a business is that you get to speak to people at the top table. And I don't think you really get that exposure as much while I did. And you know, when I was working at, you know, other larger startups and tech companies, you know,

Alexandra Pointet (24:34)
Hmm.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (24:51)
I would never like dream of speaking to the CEO or one of the directors really, you you spoke to your kind of line manager and, or if I was line manager often, so, know, you were kind of like the portal calling and above that was, you know, the head of the department. So you're really kind of sheltered in that hierarchy and that org. So like, you know, I think, you know, when we take a step back and think about the people that we actually speak to on a daily, they're, they're like, they're founders like us, you know, not more advanced, but you know, they've, in terms of like what they're.

Alexandra Pointet (25:05)
Yeah, such a good point.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (25:21)
usually, you know, more experienced in their kind of field in terms of what they're doing. But it's amazing that we have those conversations on a daily and you know, it's at first you kind of a little bit there is a little bit of it feels quite daunting, doesn't it? But but then you kind of like realize that hey, you're a founder too, know, you're just and they're human and you're speaking to them on a level and it's great.

Alexandra Pointet (25:33)
Definitely, definitely.

Yeah, I think that's the thing. It's like that everyone is just human, just trying to get through life. And yeah, you don't need to be so intimidated by them, I guess, unless there's like warrant to but most of the time everyone's, you know, pretty, pretty decent.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (25:56)
Mm.

So Alex, we've covered the importance of adaptability. We've covered around learning, acquiring new skills and fulfillment and how you need to have that mindset in terms of the way that you figure out things and problem solve and constant learning and all that kind of stuff. Another one that I think is good is around like, don't...

Alexandra Pointet (26:05)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (26:25)
When, you are like, when you start building a team and you, or you have like, a few of you, like we do as, as, founders, you know, when to kind of pivot when you kind of assign roles. So, you know, when you're doing something and it's like, you know, you're, you're kind of struggling on the doing it, doing well, like you can work out. kind of did cover this slightly before, but don't just kind of keep going and trudging. Like if you've kind of finding that.

someone is struggling on a certain role, just like move around and just make like trying to work out who's best to do what. I think it's really important. We've done that a lot, I think at Yaya, like where to try and get the right mold of where to play each other in certain kind of roles. I think we've covered this.

Alexandra Pointet (27:04)
Yeah.

I think we have, but I think it's good to kind of, you know, bring back, bring back. it is good to kind of pivot things and, know, it goes back to the adaptability piece. And yeah, if you've got someone working in your team that potentially could be better. You can see that they're struggling and they're better suited elsewhere than it is good. And it will give them more of an opportunity to, you know, really excel in something else rather than like struggle city over in the other corner where they're just not happy. And it's just not going to.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (27:41)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pointet (27:43)
it's not going to be conducive to anything. your work and you'll end up worrying about them and yeah, it just isn't a good thing. So yeah, it just goes back to the point of adaptability and like adapting people and you and yeah.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (27:58)
Because it, cause I think it's like, it's good. you know, I've said about, like, you know, throwing the job spec out the window. and I mean, there's, I say that kind of like hardly because it is good to kind of define your role to a degree, like, you know, just to, to then understand like the things that you're working. And then if actually what we found was useful is that we kind of ask people to write their own kind of job spec to kind of, cause then it's a good way to, for them to identify the things that.

they feel that they're not so strong at. So that's quite a good way of kind of broaching that conversation if it's a little bit tricky or can't be honest.

Alexandra Pointet (28:30)
Ahem.

Yeah?

Definitely. It could go the other way though. They could just write down all the things. So you'll be like, But from our experiences, it's kind of worked. But you know, there's always that flag.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (28:40)
I it can't go together. I'm just brilliant at this.

Why are you that good?

Yeah, I think it's been it's worked for us. Are you really good at that? Okay. Yes, I think it's an it makes it like it puts a bit more on us on. I think it's quite nice as an exercise. It means that you know, you're not dictating to them what they should be doing. Like, you know, you have an idea and, you know, like, I think we've drafted up between ourselves, like multiple versions of like, what our kind of roles and responsibilities are. But obviously, no.

Alexandra Pointet (28:58)
Hahaha

Yeah.

Yeah, what's my job again?

Adam Yaya-Durrant (29:20)
Yeah, what is my title? But obviously know that this will constantly pivot and change. So I think the big thematic from the whole of this is really like, there's going to be a lot of change and really just kind of embrace it really, because that's the only thing we can do and continue to learn because you always will effectively.

Alexandra Pointet (29:27)
Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and we talked about that a lot last week, didn't we? in fact, you are just always learning new things when you think you might be at a stage where you're not having to learn anything anymore, then don't worry, because you're going to have something else you're going to have to learn pretty soon, just coming at you around the corner.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (30:01)
Yeah, I actually think also like, sorry, just go back to your question about what was the hardest thing I've had to learn. I think it would be definitely the people element was is it was a big kind of like change up from just being a designer when you're running a business and then you're scaling it and you're hiring people that then really starts to change a lot of things because you're responsible for those people.

Alexandra Pointet (30:07)
yeah.

and

Adam Yaya-Durrant (30:27)
financially responsible as people emotionally to a degree and essentially keeping them happy, keeping them kind of fulfilled with work and fulfilled with the job and maintaining culture. Those things are the stuff that is really difficult. That makes sales feel easy. But I love the people element at the same time, but it definitely comes with its own challenges for sure.

Alexandra Pointet (30:54)
Yeah, yeah, well also I suppose the people element in a time where we know a lot of what we do is virtual, it's hard, it's hard to manage the people when you're not with people all the time, in a traditional place you would be. So I think that, yeah, it's one of those things that is hard and people are very complex. I think that, you know, that is just.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (31:16)
Yeah. And we'll probably do more of like reflective pods with when Phil's back to go over some of that stuff. But you know, just because we're like, we're on it now, I'd say kind of investing in like that department, like that people department is a worthwhile investment. your plan is to scale like the scale of the business.

Alexandra Pointet (31:25)
Mmm.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (31:44)
get that really aligned and sort, you know, set up at an early stage, you know, you know, bring in a head of people if you can bring in like set kind of values and culture and actually kind of live and, and, try and live and breathe it rather than just say it. I think those things are really important and I value them massively and like, but you know, I think, you know, it's

Alexandra Pointet (31:44)
Definitely.

Is it?

Adam Yaya-Durrant (32:11)
like when it doesn't align, it's just not great. It's not great. I think investing in those things, they're really important basically. And they go a long way in the future for sure.

Alexandra Pointet (32:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, quite. Yeah, is there anything else you want to cover?

Adam Yaya-Durrant (32:26)
Okay, so I think we've, we've, we've covered it really, I think for people who are setting up a business, the main takeaway of this, and I know we talk about a lot is just that ability to adapt, learn, and pivot. And the importance of working if you are working with a team fortunate enough to have co founders or other, you know, people working with you.

that you trust each other, you allow each other to make mistakes because we all do, we're all human. You support each other through the rubbish times and good and the bad. And you play to each other's strengths. And that's, you know, that's a kind of secret source of success, I guess.

Alexandra Pointet (33:03)
you

Lovely.

it's just embracing the change that comes with starting and growing a business and supporting people as they learn things because you know people don't know how to do spreadsheets and figma designs from the outset so it's good to be patient with those.

people until they're a better at those things.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (33:36)
acceptance as well that your kind of role will never be the same again, in the most like, dreary way, because you will change massively and grow and develop through that process. Right, I think that's enough. I think that's,

Alexandra Pointet (33:41)
You

Yes, yes, in the most non-depressing way your role and your life will never be the same again. That's a good, yeah, you never give up always. I think that's a good place to end, to be honest. Good message to end on.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (34:00)
It would never be the same. You can never go back. You can never go back to that.

Okay. It was supposed to be a positive message. I hope it comes across as that. Okay.

Alexandra Pointet (34:17)
It is positive, I think. It's good. Cool. So we'll wrap up there then and we'll catch you next time. And if you'd like to hear more of the ramblings on the Cult Products Podcast, then please like and subscribe and keep listening, everybody. Bye.

Adam Yaya-Durrant (34:22)
All right, that's a wrap.

Cool. Bye bye.